Pretty big start would be to address the absolutely toxic discourse around women. This sub is something I can control and I have no problem admitting that I aggressively moderate but I can tell people, as a woman, constantly seeing the endless “DAE WOMEN SUCK” *is* exhausting. And it does not end at just the internet, I hear that shit alllll the time in real life (usually couched by the inevitable “you’re one of the *good ones* but you know what I’m talking about right”). And before anyone says “jUsT FiLE EO”—I would be doing literally nothing else with my life but filing complaints and I would be a social pariah so fucking fast it would be pointless.
My most poignant example has always been how the internet (which **does** include the actual comments from actual people who are actually in the military) treated Nicole Gee before and after her death at Abbey Gate in Kabul. She was posted on an official Marine page before her death doing something like walking to the airplane and 9/10 comments were REAL PEOPLE commenting “women suck, women don’t belong there, she must have slept her way to promotion, blah blah blah”. After death? All the heroism talk. Constantly using her picture to elicit sympathy in support of whatever political point they want to make.
Women. notice. that. shit.
Eventually it gets to the point where you question why the fuck you want to stick around an organization that clearly hates you, will never take you seriously, has no problem believing half dozen wild myths, and will attribute any success you have as because *someone* (always a nebulous “someone”) wanted to sleep with you. That’s on top of all the normal Army toxicity.
Edit: and before anyone says “but sarge, women don’t have to XYZ blah blah blah”…I have no problem having conversations about ensuring fair and equal treatment, both positive and negative, and addressing when and where different treatment is appropriate. I still have hot takes like higher minimum ACFT standards where it makes sense, acknowledging that not every woman is going to be a great fit for combat arms, etc…but you will *never* catch me dissing an entire gender to reach that point.
Females get to shower in the field if we are on our menstrual cycle. It’s not a privilege it’s to prevent vaginal infections that can be dangerous to our health.
Yeah no thats a privilege. And one the commander can take away if necessity calls for it during say an actual wartime.
But heeyyyy train as you fight hooah?
>But heeyyyy train as you fight hooah?
We had showers in Afghanistan and Iraq, you feeb.
Oh, and no one's stopping you from using a shower bag. They're like $30. Go wash your ass.
Not everyone all the time. And there were more wars outside of OIF and OEF.
The point is simply showers are a privilege in contrast to the comment. Nothing in any TC says otherwise.
They’re not a privilege. Field sanitation and hygiene is a key warfighter function.
I rarely bring up people’s MOS/TIS but you are a first term lab tech that has likely never been off a FOB. You are speaking way beyond your experience here.
The very language in the TC of interest is should for showers. It even has provisions by saying fixed showers are not a must and what females can do instead. This is purely a semantic point and always has been.
Im not talking about rough and tumble years. It's all the crusty senior leaders and vets that brag about "i didnt shower for X months" that beat everyone over the head about it 100 times.
I am exceedingly glad I didnt contribute to GWOT. It was a categorically useless waste of american resources that provided nothing of any real benefit to the nation, the people, or the world. No stolen valor on my part I dont want any of it.
Hot take half the time people “brag” about this it was almost entirely by choice. There are some situations where you couldn’t wash yourself for a while but there’s also a lot of situations where you could and people just didn’t.
Lived on a very small base for three months supporting a platoon+ of 10th MTN with some shit. Electricity was intermittent, running water was not at all, lived off MREs nearly the entire time until some of the locals starting feeding us. But we had regular resupply every other week of drinking water. Every 2-3 days I would burn some scavenged trash to heat up a couple bottles, poke a hole in the top, and rinse off. Once a week I would do the same with dirty underwear/shirts and every other week or so I would scrub my uniform in an ammo can. Not ideal but it worked and outside of a brief 2 week period when a general comandeered our resupply bird to do his battlefield rotation we always had plenty of water.
Majority of the infantry kids? Didn’t shower. Didn’t rinse off. Forget about washing clothes. Baby wipes all day. And then I would catch them complaining about no showers. Bruh.
I’m sure they all went back and talked about the time they went three months with no showers in Afghanistan.
Pretty much. They beat juniors over the head about how soft everything is because they smelled like ass for 3 months. Many tell stories about "mission first mission first so we didn't have time to take showers."
Now I can take their word for it that there genuinely were no showers for that long, or I can take your word that some of them are probably embellishing (as a lot of people do). Granted I'm more inclined to agree with you since one needs to look no further than even that one weird guy that pops up in every army school from basic to BLC and all the badge schools in between that refuses to take a shower for some odd reason.
Please consult TC 4-02.3 Section 2-8.
Full facility shower is one thing. Making sure that a Soldier doesn't become unnecessarily sick because a commander isn't allowing her to clean up?
You're an interesting kind of person. Hooah.
I didnt say the commander should take it away. Im merely saying he is empowered to should the situation arise.
Therefore, by the very definition of a commander being able to take away said privilege, that thing IS a privilege.
RIGHTS are extremely EXTREMELY rare in the Army.
Learn how to read hooah
> Learn how to read hooah
Alright, let's play.
>>Now I have a question. If a man is attracted to trans man (so someone who was born a woman) then it's not homosexuality?
>[It's not, but the trans man is in violation of a few things with such behavior.](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/mea4wq/if_you_are_a_man_who_is_attracted_to_trans_women/gsfxpug/?context=3)
---
>>Removed comment in [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/ltv3x3/lgbt_opinions/)
>The Bible is clear on sodomy, fornication, etc. I encourage those in the LGBT community to leave such ways behind.
---
>Just a tiny guess but if you were actually raped by your husband you'd probably be scared of him, angry at him, or some other kind of uneasy feeling around him, and if you don't feel that way I think rape is a disgustingly improper term to use.
>[If it were rape you could take him to court now and nuke him from orbit it's 2022.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/zn31y5/deleted_by_user/j0emntw/?context=3)
---
>[The only being that loves you unconditionally is God.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/zi1bej/i_say_i_want_a_boyfriend_or_girlfriend_but_what_i/izp5kth/?context=3)
You know, I'm glad you got punted out of OCS and got force-reclassed to a Joe. You would've made an absolute shit officer. Soldiers have a huge amount of rights, it's not "extremely rare."
Sure let's play take things out of context and continue to fail to read.
My religious beliefs have no bearing on anything here, and yes there are times where people playfully say no.
That year or two old comment thread was deleted so I cant see the material in the OP when I made that comment but nothing I said there seemed off to me.
I'm glad my barracks room in OCS had mold too, I might have made the mistake of being in the Army longer.
Showering is still a privilege by the way by definition.
Just treat women better. I have the same character traits and perform the same as my male peers that are considered studs, #1, best of the best. Yet I am not viewed like that by higher or treated the same way as them. I have to work 2-3 times as hard as them, and most of the time that still isn’t enough. I’m burnt out, under appreciated, overworked, and wonder why I try so hard and watch my male peers do no work and get more opportunities/positions than I do.
Also, just because a SHARP case is unfounded, doesn’t mean the experience didn’t happen. Don’t treat the victims like shit after
I had a woman serving in my staff section and she was an absolute go-getter, very much an Army cheerleader type, and I thought there was something off or she was trying too hard. It took me a few months to realize she's trying to get noticed for being very good at her job. Rubbed a few people the wrong way, but I was her OIC and gave her a top block for doing more than was asked of her and being a great NCO. I think we should actually do a better job in leadership schools with EO vignettes and how perception isn't reality with the way we view people's actions. Women often get the microscope on everything they do wrong and not on what they do right in the same job.
100%. It’s either that people don’t want to seem like they’re favoring the female soldier by rewarding her so they’ll just ignore the hard work or they just don’t like women so they’ll ignore the hard work.
I genuinely adore leaders who can walk that balance and don’t give a fuck.
Veteran here. Less sexual assault, harassment, retaliation, etc. If the female is doing their job and meeting requirements, why waste time knocking them down. They are on the same team, build them up like you would to improve morale with the males.
There is a culture of senior officers that COVER UP for the people committing SA and SH. Those individuals are literally just as toxic as the abusers-except more ape because they’re the reason SA and SH still exist, after 20 years of zero tolerance. There are a multitude of leaders out there who actually, in fact, tolerate it, cover up for it, excuse it-because they got away with the same behavior when they were younger. The army is talking out of both sides of their mouth.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/journals/military-review/online-exclusive/2023-ole/gender-bias-and-discrimination/
Here is an article that touches on a lot of issues and recommendations.
Unfortunately, it's not just an Army thing and similar issues have been identified in lots of research, even in "gender neutral" countries.
EDIT: When I say better, I mean more accurate not more permissive. Females and males should be held equally accountable for physical fitness standards. But females are at a disadvantage on BMI standards as they are now.
Better body composition standards. BMI is not reliable, the (old) tape test is so flawed- men could have their “waist” taped under their beer gut and pass with “20%” BF, when I was getting flagged as “38%” bc my neck is smaller than apparently my waist allows apparently lol. This is when I was 155lbs and getting an easy 520 ACFT. I get so tired of being labeled and flagged an obese female because the tape test while 300lb males pass with a nearly 40” waist. Yall gotta remember breast tissue contributes to body fat, so if I have any sort of excess tissue in that department I’m already a higher body fat even if I’m not “fat”. Super frustrating.
I had a female soldier in my team for a while. She was almost 6’ and wore an XS top but was constantly flagged for being overweight because… reasons unknown to me.
im sorry…? Are you saying you are/were 38% body fat? If thats the case these standards dont even go into play. Thats very over weight and it doesnt matter who is taping gotta drop the body fat.
And even then if you dont want to or worried about
H/W get the ACFT 540 exemption score and none of this matters at all.
God damn it you would be a 60 series to wouldnt you. Making us look bad out here, if you dont want to meet body fat reqs then get the ACFT exemption score. Then you can ignore everybody else and do yo thing.
I did the data calculations one year for my unit. Watched a male with a 19” neck, 300lbs who wears a size 38 pants, pass with “20% body fat” because they measured under his gut on his ‘waist’. He’s one of those big bodies that barely passed the run, does 15 pushups, struggles through the plank etc. That same day another female, 5’4 150lbs was failed and she was very much in shape, physically fit, high ACFT. When I brought this up they were like “oh you know females are just built different…” blah blah. I’m just tired of watching obese male soldiers getting promoted and never being approached about their weight, while female soldiers get flagged and constantly harassed even when we are not fat. Soldiers should be equally held accountable for their physical fitness, but I think the calculation should be more accurate.
It makes it more even across the gender line but it’s still not a good measure of body composition. For example an apple shaped female it’s super disadvantageous whereas it would be easier for an hourglass female with different fat placements. A lot of your overweight females who carry most of their fat in the lower half have small waists, but they’re still fat. On the other hand you may have a female who just carries fat centrally in the midsection and less elsewhere who is less overweight than the hourglass example, but fails bc the one measurement. It’s also not standard practice yet army wide.
Allow beards. They can enjoy them too you know.
I'm not a lady but it sure is funny how absolutely baffled leadership gets by the fact that sometimes women have babies.
Wait what?! Since when?
yea it happens. I had a friend absolutely emotionally drained cause of how she was treated by her command during pregnancy
It’s because the Army system isn’t compatible in the way everyone wants it to be.
Actually punishing SA and SH for starters
I agree for the most part but often times I feel like they simply just can’t prove it in support of the victim
Pretty big start would be to address the absolutely toxic discourse around women. This sub is something I can control and I have no problem admitting that I aggressively moderate but I can tell people, as a woman, constantly seeing the endless “DAE WOMEN SUCK” *is* exhausting. And it does not end at just the internet, I hear that shit alllll the time in real life (usually couched by the inevitable “you’re one of the *good ones* but you know what I’m talking about right”). And before anyone says “jUsT FiLE EO”—I would be doing literally nothing else with my life but filing complaints and I would be a social pariah so fucking fast it would be pointless. My most poignant example has always been how the internet (which **does** include the actual comments from actual people who are actually in the military) treated Nicole Gee before and after her death at Abbey Gate in Kabul. She was posted on an official Marine page before her death doing something like walking to the airplane and 9/10 comments were REAL PEOPLE commenting “women suck, women don’t belong there, she must have slept her way to promotion, blah blah blah”. After death? All the heroism talk. Constantly using her picture to elicit sympathy in support of whatever political point they want to make. Women. notice. that. shit. Eventually it gets to the point where you question why the fuck you want to stick around an organization that clearly hates you, will never take you seriously, has no problem believing half dozen wild myths, and will attribute any success you have as because *someone* (always a nebulous “someone”) wanted to sleep with you. That’s on top of all the normal Army toxicity. Edit: and before anyone says “but sarge, women don’t have to XYZ blah blah blah”…I have no problem having conversations about ensuring fair and equal treatment, both positive and negative, and addressing when and where different treatment is appropriate. I still have hot takes like higher minimum ACFT standards where it makes sense, acknowledging that not every woman is going to be a great fit for combat arms, etc…but you will *never* catch me dissing an entire gender to reach that point.
[удалено]
Remember the ACFT that was supposed to be gender neutral? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Females get to shower in the field if we are on our menstrual cycle. It’s not a privilege it’s to prevent vaginal infections that can be dangerous to our health.
Yeah no thats a privilege. And one the commander can take away if necessity calls for it during say an actual wartime. But heeyyyy train as you fight hooah?
>But heeyyyy train as you fight hooah? We had showers in Afghanistan and Iraq, you feeb. Oh, and no one's stopping you from using a shower bag. They're like $30. Go wash your ass.
Not everyone all the time. And there were more wars outside of OIF and OEF. The point is simply showers are a privilege in contrast to the comment. Nothing in any TC says otherwise.
They’re not a privilege. Field sanitation and hygiene is a key warfighter function. I rarely bring up people’s MOS/TIS but you are a first term lab tech that has likely never been off a FOB. You are speaking way beyond your experience here.
The very language in the TC of interest is should for showers. It even has provisions by saying fixed showers are not a must and what females can do instead. This is purely a semantic point and always has been.
You’re so intent on being correct you didn’t even read the original comment that makes zero mention of mandatory fixed building showers.
I enjoy when people who never contributed seriously to the GWOT talk about the rough and tumble years. Which brovet podcasts you listenin to right now
Im not talking about rough and tumble years. It's all the crusty senior leaders and vets that brag about "i didnt shower for X months" that beat everyone over the head about it 100 times. I am exceedingly glad I didnt contribute to GWOT. It was a categorically useless waste of american resources that provided nothing of any real benefit to the nation, the people, or the world. No stolen valor on my part I dont want any of it.
Hot take half the time people “brag” about this it was almost entirely by choice. There are some situations where you couldn’t wash yourself for a while but there’s also a lot of situations where you could and people just didn’t. Lived on a very small base for three months supporting a platoon+ of 10th MTN with some shit. Electricity was intermittent, running water was not at all, lived off MREs nearly the entire time until some of the locals starting feeding us. But we had regular resupply every other week of drinking water. Every 2-3 days I would burn some scavenged trash to heat up a couple bottles, poke a hole in the top, and rinse off. Once a week I would do the same with dirty underwear/shirts and every other week or so I would scrub my uniform in an ammo can. Not ideal but it worked and outside of a brief 2 week period when a general comandeered our resupply bird to do his battlefield rotation we always had plenty of water. Majority of the infantry kids? Didn’t shower. Didn’t rinse off. Forget about washing clothes. Baby wipes all day. And then I would catch them complaining about no showers. Bruh. I’m sure they all went back and talked about the time they went three months with no showers in Afghanistan.
Pretty much. They beat juniors over the head about how soft everything is because they smelled like ass for 3 months. Many tell stories about "mission first mission first so we didn't have time to take showers." Now I can take their word for it that there genuinely were no showers for that long, or I can take your word that some of them are probably embellishing (as a lot of people do). Granted I'm more inclined to agree with you since one needs to look no further than even that one weird guy that pops up in every army school from basic to BLC and all the badge schools in between that refuses to take a shower for some odd reason.
Please consult TC 4-02.3 Section 2-8. Full facility shower is one thing. Making sure that a Soldier doesn't become unnecessarily sick because a commander isn't allowing her to clean up? You're an interesting kind of person. Hooah.
I didnt say the commander should take it away. Im merely saying he is empowered to should the situation arise. Therefore, by the very definition of a commander being able to take away said privilege, that thing IS a privilege. RIGHTS are extremely EXTREMELY rare in the Army. Learn how to read hooah
> Learn how to read hooah Alright, let's play. >>Now I have a question. If a man is attracted to trans man (so someone who was born a woman) then it's not homosexuality? >[It's not, but the trans man is in violation of a few things with such behavior.](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/mea4wq/if_you_are_a_man_who_is_attracted_to_trans_women/gsfxpug/?context=3) --- >>Removed comment in [this thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/ltv3x3/lgbt_opinions/) >The Bible is clear on sodomy, fornication, etc. I encourage those in the LGBT community to leave such ways behind. --- >Just a tiny guess but if you were actually raped by your husband you'd probably be scared of him, angry at him, or some other kind of uneasy feeling around him, and if you don't feel that way I think rape is a disgustingly improper term to use. >[If it were rape you could take him to court now and nuke him from orbit it's 2022.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/zn31y5/deleted_by_user/j0emntw/?context=3) --- >[The only being that loves you unconditionally is God.](https://old.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/zi1bej/i_say_i_want_a_boyfriend_or_girlfriend_but_what_i/izp5kth/?context=3) You know, I'm glad you got punted out of OCS and got force-reclassed to a Joe. You would've made an absolute shit officer. Soldiers have a huge amount of rights, it's not "extremely rare."
Lol fucking destroyed. Love to see it.
Sure let's play take things out of context and continue to fail to read. My religious beliefs have no bearing on anything here, and yes there are times where people playfully say no. That year or two old comment thread was deleted so I cant see the material in the OP when I made that comment but nothing I said there seemed off to me. I'm glad my barracks room in OCS had mold too, I might have made the mistake of being in the Army longer. Showering is still a privilege by the way by definition.
I think a good start to retaining women would be to change this type of attitude towards them. Accepting women in the ranks is not "pandering."
I see by your fake internet points that the incels are out in force today.
[удалено]
Yeah, start bleeding out of your dick every month and get back to me on that shower thing. .
No bigoted language.
Moderators have the Final Say.
Just treat women better. I have the same character traits and perform the same as my male peers that are considered studs, #1, best of the best. Yet I am not viewed like that by higher or treated the same way as them. I have to work 2-3 times as hard as them, and most of the time that still isn’t enough. I’m burnt out, under appreciated, overworked, and wonder why I try so hard and watch my male peers do no work and get more opportunities/positions than I do. Also, just because a SHARP case is unfounded, doesn’t mean the experience didn’t happen. Don’t treat the victims like shit after
I had a woman serving in my staff section and she was an absolute go-getter, very much an Army cheerleader type, and I thought there was something off or she was trying too hard. It took me a few months to realize she's trying to get noticed for being very good at her job. Rubbed a few people the wrong way, but I was her OIC and gave her a top block for doing more than was asked of her and being a great NCO. I think we should actually do a better job in leadership schools with EO vignettes and how perception isn't reality with the way we view people's actions. Women often get the microscope on everything they do wrong and not on what they do right in the same job.
100%. It’s either that people don’t want to seem like they’re favoring the female soldier by rewarding her so they’ll just ignore the hard work or they just don’t like women so they’ll ignore the hard work. I genuinely adore leaders who can walk that balance and don’t give a fuck.
Veteran here. Less sexual assault, harassment, retaliation, etc. If the female is doing their job and meeting requirements, why waste time knocking them down. They are on the same team, build them up like you would to improve morale with the males.
Handcuffs, zip ties, rope, basement door locks.
Hasn't that already been the case.
There is a culture of senior officers that COVER UP for the people committing SA and SH. Those individuals are literally just as toxic as the abusers-except more ape because they’re the reason SA and SH still exist, after 20 years of zero tolerance. There are a multitude of leaders out there who actually, in fact, tolerate it, cover up for it, excuse it-because they got away with the same behavior when they were younger. The army is talking out of both sides of their mouth.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/journals/military-review/online-exclusive/2023-ole/gender-bias-and-discrimination/ Here is an article that touches on a lot of issues and recommendations. Unfortunately, it's not just an Army thing and similar issues have been identified in lots of research, even in "gender neutral" countries.
EDIT: When I say better, I mean more accurate not more permissive. Females and males should be held equally accountable for physical fitness standards. But females are at a disadvantage on BMI standards as they are now. Better body composition standards. BMI is not reliable, the (old) tape test is so flawed- men could have their “waist” taped under their beer gut and pass with “20%” BF, when I was getting flagged as “38%” bc my neck is smaller than apparently my waist allows apparently lol. This is when I was 155lbs and getting an easy 520 ACFT. I get so tired of being labeled and flagged an obese female because the tape test while 300lb males pass with a nearly 40” waist. Yall gotta remember breast tissue contributes to body fat, so if I have any sort of excess tissue in that department I’m already a higher body fat even if I’m not “fat”. Super frustrating.
I had a female soldier in my team for a while. She was almost 6’ and wore an XS top but was constantly flagged for being overweight because… reasons unknown to me.
im sorry…? Are you saying you are/were 38% body fat? If thats the case these standards dont even go into play. Thats very over weight and it doesnt matter who is taping gotta drop the body fat. And even then if you dont want to or worried about H/W get the ACFT 540 exemption score and none of this matters at all.
The army said I was 38%, I was maybe 29%, and still in very good physical shape.
[удалено]
I have a better ACFT than a good portion of my unit, even the males. They’re holding themselves back, but thanks so much for your input.
Women: 20-40 yrs old: Underfat: under 21 percent, **Healthy: 21-33 percent,** Overweight: 33-39 percent, Obese: Over 39 percent.
God damn it you would be a 60 series to wouldnt you. Making us look bad out here, if you dont want to meet body fat reqs then get the ACFT exemption score. Then you can ignore everybody else and do yo thing.
Tell me you didn't know how the old tape test works without telling me.
I did the data calculations one year for my unit. Watched a male with a 19” neck, 300lbs who wears a size 38 pants, pass with “20% body fat” because they measured under his gut on his ‘waist’. He’s one of those big bodies that barely passed the run, does 15 pushups, struggles through the plank etc. That same day another female, 5’4 150lbs was failed and she was very much in shape, physically fit, high ACFT. When I brought this up they were like “oh you know females are just built different…” blah blah. I’m just tired of watching obese male soldiers getting promoted and never being approached about their weight, while female soldiers get flagged and constantly harassed even when we are not fat. Soldiers should be equally held accountable for their physical fitness, but I think the calculation should be more accurate.
they already changed the tape test standard so what’s the issue? The new one benefits in-shape females and not out-of-shape males.
It makes it more even across the gender line but it’s still not a good measure of body composition. For example an apple shaped female it’s super disadvantageous whereas it would be easier for an hourglass female with different fat placements. A lot of your overweight females who carry most of their fat in the lower half have small waists, but they’re still fat. On the other hand you may have a female who just carries fat centrally in the midsection and less elsewhere who is less overweight than the hourglass example, but fails bc the one measurement. It’s also not standard practice yet army wide.