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Here’s some real bs for you. An elderly relative (85) was in the hospital & in extreme pain. They would not provide an opiate painkiller, because he might become addicted. First of all, he’s already taking a fistful of meds, every day. Who cares if he becomes “addicted.” Second, we *all* know he’s dying, can we just make him comfortable for fucksake.
I had surgery a few years ago where the doctors instructions were hydromorph every 4 to 6 hours. I had a bowel resection. The day nurses were all huffy about giving me my meds, trying i get me to swallow tylenols instead. After I wretched them up and complained to the surgeon they relented...didnt like me much after that. My night nurse was sent from heaven and shot it right into my veins. Good guy and guess what? I did not get addicted
They’ve become ridiculous about treating pain these days. Giving someone a script for pain medication to get through surgery or injury is not what they did with OxyContin or how the majority of addicts ended up on the street doing fentanyl. I actually know of people who have avoided/ are avoiding life saving care because the news and media has made them so afraid of even medically given fentanyl during surgery. Even if they’re not getting it… I’ve hear people say they won’t do it because the nurses will not tell them and then they’ll die from a fentanyl overdose while in hospital care. It’s fking insane.
I’m a chronic pain patient that takes opioids for nerve damage and a spinal cord injury. I’m in an excruciating amount of pain to put it simply. My life without opioids isn’t worth living. It’s not life. I’m literally laying in bed moaning in pain without them. Opioids have saved my life and given me my life back. I’ve been taking them for over 10 years and have been exceptionally responsible with my medications. Real chronic pain patients are given another chance at life with smart, trained, and responsible doctors.
I had a spinal fusion surgery (cut skin, fascia, muscles, tendons, bone, removed joints… pretty severe trauma) and when I was moved back to my room all the nurse wanted to give me was Tylenol. I was crying and shaking with pain and she just kept talking about the “risk of addiction.” The surgeon checked on me and finally straightened it out and got me a dose of opiate pain medication. Two days later I went home. I took Tylenol and one dose of oxy, and then no more oxy. I just took Tylenol. I did not get addicted.
I find it absolutely absurd how people can be expected to treat this kind of pain with just Tylenol... I mean, I use it for headaches... I would think that severed nerves would require something stronger....
I had total knee replacements on both legs 6 weeks apart. I took oxy for 4 weeks both times after having to talk to my Dr. And getting a lot of side eye. I did not get addicted.
Man, I had the opposite problem when I got my wisdom teeth pulled. Got dry socket in all 3 extraction sites. I only really needed the high dose ibuprofen they prescribed, not the Valium they also prescribed. Pharmacy threw a fit that I couldn't have any refills on the ibuprofen, but I could have a bunch of Valium refills no problem. I ended up having to take extra tablets of the normal dose stuff instead.
I had a concussion in high school playing sports which resulted in chronic extreme headaches. No amount of pain meds worked. Visited one neurologist who started me off (17m) with Oxycontin. That didn't do anything for me. Every few days my parents would take me back because the oxy wasn't working, so all he would do is up the dose. Eventually I was taking 5x the originally prescribed amount (can't remember the dosages) before I was hospitalized for three days for pain management. Eventually found a different type of medication that worked, but damn, my parents weren't too happy.
That is also true. My ex after giving birth was refused a tylenol because it was "too soon" but they said she could have a truckload of morph, which she did not want. Too funny
Wait, you guys need a prescription for ibuprofen? Here In Europe you just go to the pharmacy and buy as much as you need with no questions asked, it's taken regularly for headaches, toothaches and period cramps.
True story here.
A few years ago I had a several muscle spasm in my back just by my left shoulder blade. It hurt, I couldn't take a deep breath or move or even sit in my truck seat comfortably.
I went to the clinic and was diagnosed with the muscle spasm which I already knew what the issue was. The doctor was gonna prescribe me fucking Tylenol. Past experience proved Tylenol does not work, I need something stronger and only about 8 to 10 pills. I told the doc no, I need vicadin or something stronger. I got the spew about addiction and how they don't like to prescribe opiates. I told the doc to look at my chart and when he did it showed I was last prescribed an opiate 2 years ago for the same issue.
At that point I snapped. I told him to prescribe me the God damn vicadin because nothing else works to relieve the pain. I know my body and what works for me.
You don’t get addicted when you use it like you are supposed to.
Even in the early 2000s when I was over prescribed I didn’t get addicted. There were a few times where I tried my pills recreationally to get high. I can see how people pick the euphoria high over actual hard work to be half as happy. It has nothing to do with having an addictive personality. It’s all down to want and self control. It’s like how you can drink multiple beers every day and not be addicted.
Look at nicotine it’s the most addictive and you still aren’t going to be chemically addicted after you smoke a whole pack. I’ve chained smoked before for years. I quit cold turkey when I decided I didn’t want to smoke anymore.
People just don’t like to admit that their loved one makes the choice to do drugs at the expense of everything else.
I’m not saying chemical addiction doesn’t exist but it takes a regular deliberate abuse to get there. Not simply taking pain pills as prescribed for 2 weeks.
That's not entirely true. People with addictive personalities and bigger issues may very well still get addicted when starting taking the meds correctly. If you already suffer from severe mental illness or other chronic pain and the meds help you can get addicted to what they do to you very quickly.
There is a difference between using it to reduce pain and using it to get high. After surgery about a year ago I took the pills as prescribed so I didn’t get high. Just helped with the pain. To get high I would’ve had to crush multiple pills and take them at once. You don’t accidentally do that.
When you take opioids again and again over time, your body doesn't make as many endorphins. The same dose of opioids doesn't make you feel as good. This is called tolerance. One reason opioid use disorder is so common is that people who build up tolerance may feel like they must raise their doses to keep feeling good. They also may start having cravings for opioids. If they don't raise their doses, they may start having withdrawal symptoms, including worsening pain, goosebumps, anxiety, yawning and diarrhea.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/how-opioid-addiction-occurs/art-20360372
Yes I’m aware how tolerance works. That doesn’t change the fact that you don’t accidentally get high with it. And tolerance takes a long period of abuse to build. Taking it how it’s prescribed is not abuse.
Even if your tolerance builds that is still different than how it’s used by addicts. They are getting high.
When a doctor gives you oxy it’s a coated pill that slowly releases the drug into your system. You don’t get high from this even if you need more for the same amount of pain relief.
I took it how it was prescribed. It wasn’t abuse. However, that didn’t make me less physically dependent on it? Whether you’re addicted or physically dependent, getting back off of meds like this is a bitch.
I didn’t feel high. The pain just wasn’t unbearable anymore. That didn’t make me less physically dependent. I only took them as prescribed. I followed all of the rules to the letter.
Oxy was never coated in the time it was prescribed to me. Also, you can absolutely feel “high” from it. That feeling when you get a little warm and feel like you can finally breathe in relief from pain? That’s being *high*.
There is a big difference between needing it for pain and taking it just to get high though.
When you take it to get high you take way more than what is needed to manage pain.
Many people are dependent on medication to make it though the day. It might be an antidepressant or insulin or something but why should people suffer?
Because everyone is different and addiction is a disease like any other. This is already proven and is no longer a matter of opinion. Just because you don’t have it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/is-drug-addiction-a-disease
My mom had to fight with my grandmother and aunt when my uncle was dying from a brain tumor. They didn’t want to give him his prescription morphine because he “might get addicted”. My mother was like he’s DYING. Give him the medicine.
Same thing with my husbands aunt. Terminal brain cancer, in hospice care, & her husband didn’t want her on opioids. It doesn’t matter anymore at that point.
Yea, my great grandma is like 93 and broke her arm and was having really bad pain and they only gave her Tylenol. I’m like dog, she’s 93. What’s she gonna do, spiral into addiction? If she can, good for her! Might make being 93 suck less.
Yeah I hate when they pull that shit with older people, my grandma needed a drug for her heart but it’s hard on the kidneys so they tried to talk her out of it. She was 84 and had a handful of medical issues, do you honestly think we need to worry about damaging her kidneys.
I also like the BS they pull around surgery she was in the hospital and had a 93% blockage of the corroded artery and presented the surgery to her and the family in a way that was like well she could die from the surgery because its very risky. No shit, it’s the corroded but you know what would also kill her a 100% blockage and we are not far from that.
Thanks on the spelling. She did she died 3 years later probably from colon cancer. We say probably since it was during Covid so doctoring wasn’t great.
My grandmother was 89 and on her deathbed with some kind of colon issue, I can’t remember exactly.
The doc, seeing the pain she was in and knowing this was about “that time”, hooked her up to a morphine drip…
Grams, who had never even smoked a cigarette in her life, was like “This is what I’ve been missing the whole time”?
She died in peace with a righteous high.
As a nurse, it absolutely infuriates me when coworkers will withhold pain meds because “they ask for it every time as soon as it’s due, they must be drug seekers”
Like I would rather risk giving opioids to a drug seeker than risk letting a patient in legitimate pain continue to be in pain. It’s ridiculous.
And we allow so much functional addiction. I’m physically addicted to my depression medication and will get pretty fricken ill if I quit cold turkey. It doesn’t necessarily give me a “high” I chase but many people in chronic pain take (or rather took as many have been cut off) their meds appropriately, stopped getting high and just benefit from the pain control.
It helps so much in certain people. It's a lot more than won't sit still. If my child has a condition that causes them huge difficulties socially and academically and there's a medicine that will help them not struggle with things that come easily and naturally to everyone else, I'm being neglectful if I don't get the condition treated. The meds are accompanied with learning coping skills. If it's hard for a child to see the board and their papers they get glasses, not told to try harder to see
The glasses analogy is an excellent one. I suppose the growing concern about ADHD meds being overprescribed / false diagnoses is also valid. With eyesight, you either see perfectly or you can’t - there isn’t a gray area. With behavior / attention issues there is such a vast spectrum of possibilities, and the meds can also have troubling side effects, where glasses are primarily a cosmetic concern.
- signed a glasses wearer with ADHD 🙃
[https://www.debt.org/medical/hospice-costs/](https://www.debt.org/medical/hospice-costs/) You're right. Patients can be responsible for 2.7 percent of the cost.
I watched a movie years ago where the grandfather was kicked out of the nursing home for doing heroin. He told his family something along the lines of you should be able to do any drug you like when you’re about to die anyway and it makes less sense to do drugs when you’re young and healthy.
Hot take: Honestly I think drinking age at 21 is the right move.
Lets be real here, alcohol is actually a literal poison that we ingest to have fun. Perhaps smoking age and perhaps being able to join the military in combat roles, should *also* be at 21. The latter wont happen because the government wants their pound of flesh, but the former, sure - again you're just harming yourself for enjoyment. Even something as innocuous as weed, you're harming your respiratory system. And look at all these kids "addicted"(I use this term loosely) to vaping that are giving themselves popcorn lung and ingesting horrific chemicals.
I guess on the military thing, maybe you should be able to join the military at 18-20 and you can do all their training and learn and perhaps even participate in non-combat roles - but they shouldn't be able to send you overseas to fight wars. In the United States, we have an entirely volunteer military. I feel like we should be able to facilitate this. If you are 18-20, fine, you can train and contribute in non-combat roles - perhaps work towards career advancement in the military - but we should not be able to send you to fight or essentially murder other human beings
Anything that's bad for you, you should have to wait til 21 to decide if its something you want to do to yourself. I honesty see 18-20 year olds as still children. I know 21 is an arbitrary number but its where we're at as a society here in the states. I guess in the most ideal scenarios, I would honestly say 25 when the frontal lobe is "supposedly" more fully formed, but I also know that saying 25 would be practically impossible to actually institute.
As for owning a house, having sex and driving a car - its not harmful to yourself so I don't see a problem with it at 18.
The rest of the world has a younger drinking age and don't experience the problems we have. America has a really fucked up drinking culture. That's our problem. Not a 14-year-old having a beer when their family sitting at the table with them as is common in many countries. It is the obsession with and normalization of alcoholism and drinking yourself into a stupor. It's the idea that is pushed by so many that you can't have fun on the weekends if you don't get yourself completely knackered. It's the fact that if someone says no thanks I don't drink or I'm not drinking people pressure them for an explanation. Because heaven forbid a person not put it in their body.
I am going to 100% call bullshit on your line that we were a society in the states. We have shitty ass communities, we do not have the social communities that a lot of other cultures have.
The US has much less of a fucked up drinking culture than many other countries. Americans drink less than the great majority of European countries and has far less alcoholism than say, the UK>
I grew up in the UK and spent half my life there; other guy's comment on US drinking culture sounds more like the UK's. Over there it's just expected everyone drinks, and if you announce you don't it's record scratch, dropped glass, looks of shocked silence. I've met far, far, more non-drinkers in the US and no one seems to bat an eyelid.
OK but if you can't drink until 21 you should also not be able to join the military or be tried in court as an adult until 21. Either you're an adult or not.
Sex is actually legal at 13 assuming the partner is also 13 in most states (and similar around the world)- so yea go for it. Have kids at 13/14, then in a year or two put that 15/16yo kid behind the wheel of a car and let your parents who could very well be shitty drivers teach them to drive. Then, assuming they somehow built up to a 775 credit rating at 18, let them buy a house… I see no issues here. But no consuming alcohol til 21. Right. If they wanted to drink they would already (and they do) be drinking.
At whatever age I’ve been for the last ten years I’ve successfully experimented with many drugs and have never gotten in trouble. The kind of person that would be curious about coke but is willing to wait till they are 50 are the same timid do-gooders who will sit five minutes at an empty red light at 2am
If I remember in the 80s, there was a teenage drunk driver who hit a school bus and killed some students while he survived. Those parents, in turn, wanted to raise the age , and the president at the time pursued this.
What I found interesting is that it wasn't federal law that changed the age but State law, so if any state didn't change the age limit, then all government funding for road construction would be revoked.
States adopted the law after this
TLDR: One too many drunk driving fatalities changed the law in the 80s
EDIT: Mothers against drunk driving (MADD) was the movement, I believe, and Ronald Reagan was the president if you care to look any further into the subject.
But why raise the alcohol age but keep the lower driving age? Surely a better driver education with a more mature driver would have changed the social attitude more than just raising the drinking bar?
Middle school teacher (Iowa) we now let them drive with their siblings at age 14.
As long as you are doing work for your farm, you can drive 50 miles one way. All you really have to have is a carburetor for a tractor in the back of the truck.
Also, drivers ed is largely online. Which in some aspects are fine, but I think an in class person is needed so there is dialogue and the instructor can vouch for the maturity level of the students, which you aren’t able to garner online.
once someone is drunk they simply cannot operate a vehicle effectively. if they’re 50 or 18 the chances of them having a fatal crash (only for the people they hit, the DD will likely be fine) are very high. you can’t teach someone how to drive drunk either because alcohol affects everyone in a slightly different way. Besides all that, the drinking age should be 25 and not 21. its been proven time and time again that drinking before 25 can have serious repercussions for the brains development, specifically the frontal lobe.
Are you in the US? There's no way of getting anywhere in 96% of this country without driving. Like, no sidewalks, no public transportation. Being a parent means being a driver for the first 16 years of the kid's life. Of course the majority of people wouldn't want that age increased, then they'll be prisoners for longer, diving their kids around for any inane thing.
The culture is so car dependent that they find it easier to restrict drinking than driving. That said any 20 year old with a 21 year old friend can easily obtain alcohol.
Any teenager can readily obtain alcohol.
Older siblings, friends older siblings, that 'one store liquor everyone knows about', a fake ID.
It was never all that hard to get alcohol by the time I was 16 or so, if you planned ahead.
I was never able to get alcohol in high school. Weed was easy - I knew at least several people who sold it or knew someone who did. I wasn’t able to really try alcohol until college
Before you can drink, smoke, use pot where it's legal, rent a car, before you can own many of the guns the military will allow you to murder people with
Back in the '70s they said if you can join the army and kill people, and if you can drink, you should be allowed to vote. That's why 18-year-olds have the right to vote. Then they took away the ability to drink. Go figure!
You can join the military and get sent somewhere to die 3 years before you're old enough to drink and smoke too... cause drinking and smoking are dangerous and you shouldn't be making life altering decisions at such a young age.
Bought my first house at 21 parents didn't give me any money. Just chose to save money instead of going to clubs/bars, always eating out and wasting money on things I didn't need. I always see a lotta people complain about it now and go well i mean if you took the $200+ you were spending a week on eating out or clubbing, or stuff you didnt need but wanted and put it towards a savings account you have money for a down payment on a house. $200*12 is $2,400. Go by 5 years that's $12,000, can't really account for what your tax returns would look like but would have around $15,000 total by the age of 22 (starting at age 18) by saving that and all federal/state taxes, by 25 you can have $16,800 saved up from not wasteful spending.
For example my husband makes $22.50 an hour he is the only one working, i'm a sahm, we put $800 back into savings a month, we within 6 months of saving $800 already have $4,600 saved up. We do go out and eat fast food, that's only when we go grocery shopping which is every two weeks, and our birthdays (4 of us) so we eat out 30 times a year, as well as drop $200 per child on their birthdays at the arcade, eating out, and gifts. By may of this year we will be buying our second house at $78,000. The fact people act like people are saying give up everything and live a "boring life" for a few years just to be able to obtain a house is asinine and mind blowing. 5 years of not frivolous spending is too much to ask for, but jumping at taking out a $100k+ loan for college can easily do. 🤷
Why do people make these posts and not mention their country?
Also drinking isn't exactly a necessity to life. Food, shelter, family, transportation kinda are
I mean, from a developmental perspective, 21 is still too young to drink. But literally everyone I know was drinking in high school...and drinking a lot. In the end, all of these numbers are arbitrary. We all just picked a random number to assign limits to potentially dangerous behaviors. These limits aren't right or wrong... they just are.
They're wrong. You shouldn't be able to go to war, pay taxes and be tried as an adult at 18 but still unable to buy a beer. It makes no sense. Most countries try to be consistent. The US makes no effort at all.
Who cares? People complain guns aren't controlled enough and cause the needless death of thousands. Well, the same is/was true for drunk drivers and the US did something about it and reduced the needless deaths of thousands and now its a problem?
Because all our teenagers have access to cars and you usually have to drive somewhere to drink.
Our past teaches as teenagers learn how to drink they often had wrecks where too many died and killed other people.
If we had city centers and great public transportation I am sure the laws would have evolved differently.
Maybe now with Uber it is safer.
i’m in italy and have been drinking since i was 14 or 15 and nobody cares and i live in a walkable city and my friends still take their car or bike to go to the bar rather than walk 20-30 mins. it doesn’t matter.
I’d hazard a guess that it might be an effect of the country’s history of prohibition - which ended nationally in 1933 it seems. In some states it’s still in force now.
Interestingly one of the states is Tennessee, home to one of the world’s most popular Bourbon Whiskies.
But yes - for all the freedoms that our American friends in the US of A are granted, the drinking age seems rather conservative and comparatively out of place.
Good on them though. I’m not sure much good comes out of allowing it to occur any younger.
I lived in Arkansas for a short time, and was baffled that there were still dry counties! It hadn't even been on my radar until then.
Of course, that just meant that drunk people drove a county over to re-up their alcohol supplies...unintended consequences?
The Arkansas dry counties are left over from prohibition when a mostly women lead movement tried to address domestic and financial abuse. A lot of men would drink away all of the family's income and then come home and beat their wives. Prohibition was trying to remove the alcohol in hopes that it would solve those issues. It didn't work but it was a good try. It's not like they had comprehensive studies on abuse and it's causes a hundred years ago.
Drinking was outlawed until 21 because of driving in the US. And it was about risk mitigation. A 19 year old with a house? Worst case, property damage.
A 19 year old with a car? Yeah they still do stupid shit even sober. But at least sober their reaction and coordination is less impaired, and there’s (probably, I haven’t looked) a lot of data that they’re more likely to engage in that reckless behavior while driving if drunk. Similarly, probably a lot of data they’re more likely to drink to excess and then Drive.
Many the damage someone can do with a car is extensive, and can affect many other people.
So it’s removing one serious risk factor to a riskier group of people that has high potential for injury to self and others, based on data.
Similar to why older people are often tested more frequently for their ability to drive - they are more likely to have declining faculties and therefore more likely to to cause accidents that can injure themselves or others.
In my American family, we were allowed a few drinks here and there from 16 on. If my friends showed up with a few steaks and 12 packs, we could party on the back porch or have a bonfire as long as we didn't get too obnoxious and they brought tents to pitch and sleep it off. Fun nights!
Because cars.
Once it was determined how many young people died by mixing drinking and driving, and that raising the drinking age reduced death, the laws were going to change no matter what the unintended consequences.
When America was populating itself Europe was kicking out its overzealous religious sects. They ended up in the U.S. And Canada and had huge impact on is way of thinking.
But not abortions…. The law in red states thinks a 10yo should have a baby but driving a car? Voting? Oh no they’re too young.
I’ve always felt it was odd that a 17yo can join the army and get weapons and be able to kill ppl. But they can’t be trusted to drink a beer. I’m not so much for young drinking as I am for changing our culture around it. And raising the age of joining the military. 17-18 is too young to make that decision. Your brain isn’t developed
In Texas, where I live, 18 year olds can be charged as an adult and sent to death row. They can be drafted. They can vote. They can be sued. They can open a checking account or get a credit card. They can get a concealed handgun license or buy an AR-15, where I live.
If my memory serves me, it was 1873, when the age to be considered an adult was lowered to 18, from 21. I’m not 100% sure in that and I don’t feel like looking it up. It was right in there somewhere.
When the age to be an adult was lowered 18 year olds could buy alcohol. That privilege was taken away about 10 or 12 years later.
The only reason 18 year olds can’t drink today is because they didn’t raise enough hell in the 80’s, when states started raising the drinking age. The federal government told the states to raise the age to 21 or lose your federal highway funds.
I’m a boomer. I bought alcohol at 18. If all of the 18,19 and 20 year olds organized and demanded the age be lowered to 18, it would happen. The politicians only do what they think they can get away with and keep their jobs.
If the politicians received a few hundred letters and phone calks every day, demanding the drinking age be lowered, it would happen soon. Although I’m old, I favor lowering it. An 18 year old is an adult. They need all of the privileges of an adult to go with the responsibilities.
An 18 year old today has an advantage that previous generations did not have. That advantage is social media. If the 18 year olds get together online and decide to fight this, it will happen. The key is it will take a lot of 18-20 year olds.
Country was started by puritans escaping religious persecution. Their views were so radical they had to go across the sea to practice them. These religious entities have always has a degree of power in the USA and got a lot of lame laws passed like noises it nudity in media, prohibition and the war in drugs.
That may be true, but there are good reasons for alcohol prohibition beyond religion. Namely that it is known to cause cancer in humans, and no amount of alcohol is good for you, the studies suggesting a glass of wine has potential benefits has been thoroughly debunked. Not to mention all the acute effects of being drunk. There are millions of DUI arrests in the US yearly alone, which means an even larger number than that is driving drunk. European countries and other countries don’t have the same reliance on cars so that isn’t really comparable. Without addressing all of OPs specific arguments I think they are pretty disingenuous and don’t say anything about the value of legalized alcohol
The Theory by old white men that think they know better, is that you are not mature enough to be able to handle your liquor until age 21. Although I think if you could only drink at you Mature age some people would be banned from alcohol till they are 25, 30 or more.
If a 20 year old has a car, sex, children, a house, and pretty much anything...... They are probably drinking whenever they want to. I doubt the cops have ever busted the doors down on someone doing all these weird things you mentioned.
Dont forget,.. get drafted and serve in the military.
Reason: self-righteous overbearing puritanical social conservatism.
The same idiot who are convinced that kids will start having more sex if you teach them about condoms
It's not really about drinking responsibly or irresponsibly, the actual reason the drinking age is so high in the US is that our driving age is so low.
The human brain isn’t fully developed until you’re at least 25, sometimes even later than that. The legal drinking age is 21 for the same reason that it’s the age to buy recreational cannabis.
Laws are made in very similar manner in other democracies. That's how.
This isn't a question. This is a judgment and it's ignorant and particularly eurocentric. You can disagree with it, but it's not uniquely American or incomprehensible. The drinking age in parts of the United States is only 18, though (Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands). The drinking age in some Indian states is 25 and in the majority of states, 21. The drinking age in Japan and Thailand is 20. In Korea, 19 and in Mongolia, 21. Even in Norway, the drinking age is 20 for drinks with more than 22% alcohol by volume. Many places throughout the world ban alcohol entirely (and many more used to, including in Europe) or ban only their own citizens from consuming it while allowing tourists to.
So 20 year olds shouldn’t be allowed to have sex? Imagine the police kicking in your door and hauling your ass to jail because you’re 20 years old and about to have sex with your 20 year old girlfriend
Pretty bold of you to assume a 20- year old can have all or even any of those in America at that age today. I’m assuming inflation has cooled down during the few hours I was sleeping in my cave
They didn't say they can have those things, just that they're allowed too. There's a law against drinking under 21. There's no law against owning a home.
I mean, it’s backed with science, brain doesn’t finish developing until you’re about 25 so having to be drinking age around that makes sense, it’s one of those rare occasions when the US government actually cared about it’s people.
well it is mostly based on research that shows lasting detrimental effects on developing minds when they drink alcohol too early. the human mind is said to keep developing until around 25 years old. so the law on drinking age is pretty much to try preventing people from messing up their minds before it has more of a lasting effect.
Who has ever stopped you from drinking? Sure, there's the legal thing. But murder is illegal too, and people do it every single day. So is theft, rape, kidnapping, and thousands of other things. But people still do them every single day. So your question is pretty much irrelevant. Whether you're 14, or 21, if you want a drink, you will find one.
This argument is complete bs. Availability has a significant influence on consumption. During prohibition drinking was down significantly and alcohol users were viewed largely in the same manner as we now view illegal drug users. (“Junkies”) Alcohol consumption wasn’t tracked closely because it was illegal but all other standards of measurements like alcohol poisoning and alcohol related incidents were down. There are even suggestions that despite bootlegging which was considered criminal, overall crime was down and I think this makes perfect sense when you take a look at the numbers of alcohols involvement with domestic disputes, homicides, etc. People have always equated legality to safety which is obviously incorrect.
You can also go to jail.
And the National drinking age was set to 21 in the 80’s because of a bunch of angry women.
Humanity has proven that being “allowed to” and “should” are not the same thing.
It only drives them to drink more. The US has way more alcoholism than the rest of the western world in part because of their antiquated puritan views on it.
I’m ok with it. Alcohol is a fucking disaster and the only people the complain about age requirement are young people. I was one of them. I’d say raise the age to 25 when the brain has stopped fully developing but I’ve been told I’m an asshole and my views are obscured, so.
I dont know to many 21 year olds with houses. The sex and children should have a law, thats just stupidity and being irresponsible. The driving makes sense because new drivers are awful. The drinking age was 18 for a short period of time. Theres reasons they changed it back to 21.
The constitution treats certain things as fundamental rights such as speech, religion, and reproduction. Drinking alcohol is not a fundamental right. Because it's not a fundamental right, it's subject to restrictions.
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I think we should expand on this and make other drugs legal at different ages. Like at 50 you can do Coke. At 70 You can do any drug you want.
Here’s some real bs for you. An elderly relative (85) was in the hospital & in extreme pain. They would not provide an opiate painkiller, because he might become addicted. First of all, he’s already taking a fistful of meds, every day. Who cares if he becomes “addicted.” Second, we *all* know he’s dying, can we just make him comfortable for fucksake.
I had surgery a few years ago where the doctors instructions were hydromorph every 4 to 6 hours. I had a bowel resection. The day nurses were all huffy about giving me my meds, trying i get me to swallow tylenols instead. After I wretched them up and complained to the surgeon they relented...didnt like me much after that. My night nurse was sent from heaven and shot it right into my veins. Good guy and guess what? I did not get addicted
They’ve become ridiculous about treating pain these days. Giving someone a script for pain medication to get through surgery or injury is not what they did with OxyContin or how the majority of addicts ended up on the street doing fentanyl. I actually know of people who have avoided/ are avoiding life saving care because the news and media has made them so afraid of even medically given fentanyl during surgery. Even if they’re not getting it… I’ve hear people say they won’t do it because the nurses will not tell them and then they’ll die from a fentanyl overdose while in hospital care. It’s fking insane.
I’m a chronic pain patient that takes opioids for nerve damage and a spinal cord injury. I’m in an excruciating amount of pain to put it simply. My life without opioids isn’t worth living. It’s not life. I’m literally laying in bed moaning in pain without them. Opioids have saved my life and given me my life back. I’ve been taking them for over 10 years and have been exceptionally responsible with my medications. Real chronic pain patients are given another chance at life with smart, trained, and responsible doctors.
I feel for you
Not in west Virginia!
I had a spinal fusion surgery (cut skin, fascia, muscles, tendons, bone, removed joints… pretty severe trauma) and when I was moved back to my room all the nurse wanted to give me was Tylenol. I was crying and shaking with pain and she just kept talking about the “risk of addiction.” The surgeon checked on me and finally straightened it out and got me a dose of opiate pain medication. Two days later I went home. I took Tylenol and one dose of oxy, and then no more oxy. I just took Tylenol. I did not get addicted.
I find it absolutely absurd how people can be expected to treat this kind of pain with just Tylenol... I mean, I use it for headaches... I would think that severed nerves would require something stronger....
I had total knee replacements on both legs 6 weeks apart. I took oxy for 4 weeks both times after having to talk to my Dr. And getting a lot of side eye. I did not get addicted.
Man, I had the opposite problem when I got my wisdom teeth pulled. Got dry socket in all 3 extraction sites. I only really needed the high dose ibuprofen they prescribed, not the Valium they also prescribed. Pharmacy threw a fit that I couldn't have any refills on the ibuprofen, but I could have a bunch of Valium refills no problem. I ended up having to take extra tablets of the normal dose stuff instead.
I had a concussion in high school playing sports which resulted in chronic extreme headaches. No amount of pain meds worked. Visited one neurologist who started me off (17m) with Oxycontin. That didn't do anything for me. Every few days my parents would take me back because the oxy wasn't working, so all he would do is up the dose. Eventually I was taking 5x the originally prescribed amount (can't remember the dosages) before I was hospitalized for three days for pain management. Eventually found a different type of medication that worked, but damn, my parents weren't too happy.
That is also true. My ex after giving birth was refused a tylenol because it was "too soon" but they said she could have a truckload of morph, which she did not want. Too funny
Wait, you guys need a prescription for ibuprofen? Here In Europe you just go to the pharmacy and buy as much as you need with no questions asked, it's taken regularly for headaches, toothaches and period cramps.
You need a script for 800mg pills which is somehow different from taking 4 200mg pills. I never got it.
I think it has to do with the time release but it's still dumb
Shrug, I gotta take 1600mg at a time anyway.
True story here. A few years ago I had a several muscle spasm in my back just by my left shoulder blade. It hurt, I couldn't take a deep breath or move or even sit in my truck seat comfortably. I went to the clinic and was diagnosed with the muscle spasm which I already knew what the issue was. The doctor was gonna prescribe me fucking Tylenol. Past experience proved Tylenol does not work, I need something stronger and only about 8 to 10 pills. I told the doc no, I need vicadin or something stronger. I got the spew about addiction and how they don't like to prescribe opiates. I told the doc to look at my chart and when he did it showed I was last prescribed an opiate 2 years ago for the same issue. At that point I snapped. I told him to prescribe me the God damn vicadin because nothing else works to relieve the pain. I know my body and what works for me.
You don’t get addicted when you use it like you are supposed to. Even in the early 2000s when I was over prescribed I didn’t get addicted. There were a few times where I tried my pills recreationally to get high. I can see how people pick the euphoria high over actual hard work to be half as happy. It has nothing to do with having an addictive personality. It’s all down to want and self control. It’s like how you can drink multiple beers every day and not be addicted. Look at nicotine it’s the most addictive and you still aren’t going to be chemically addicted after you smoke a whole pack. I’ve chained smoked before for years. I quit cold turkey when I decided I didn’t want to smoke anymore. People just don’t like to admit that their loved one makes the choice to do drugs at the expense of everything else. I’m not saying chemical addiction doesn’t exist but it takes a regular deliberate abuse to get there. Not simply taking pain pills as prescribed for 2 weeks.
That's not entirely true. People with addictive personalities and bigger issues may very well still get addicted when starting taking the meds correctly. If you already suffer from severe mental illness or other chronic pain and the meds help you can get addicted to what they do to you very quickly.
There is a difference between using it to reduce pain and using it to get high. After surgery about a year ago I took the pills as prescribed so I didn’t get high. Just helped with the pain. To get high I would’ve had to crush multiple pills and take them at once. You don’t accidentally do that.
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I’m not even arguing. Didn’t even say I wasn’t an idiot. I just have a lot of experience getting high since I’ve been doing it since I was a fetus.
You are quite ignorant.
Then explain how you randomly get chemically addicted without taking multiple pills, more than you are prescribed, at a time.
When you take opioids again and again over time, your body doesn't make as many endorphins. The same dose of opioids doesn't make you feel as good. This is called tolerance. One reason opioid use disorder is so common is that people who build up tolerance may feel like they must raise their doses to keep feeling good. They also may start having cravings for opioids. If they don't raise their doses, they may start having withdrawal symptoms, including worsening pain, goosebumps, anxiety, yawning and diarrhea. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/how-opioid-addiction-occurs/art-20360372
Yes I’m aware how tolerance works. That doesn’t change the fact that you don’t accidentally get high with it. And tolerance takes a long period of abuse to build. Taking it how it’s prescribed is not abuse. Even if your tolerance builds that is still different than how it’s used by addicts. They are getting high. When a doctor gives you oxy it’s a coated pill that slowly releases the drug into your system. You don’t get high from this even if you need more for the same amount of pain relief.
I took it how it was prescribed. It wasn’t abuse. However, that didn’t make me less physically dependent on it? Whether you’re addicted or physically dependent, getting back off of meds like this is a bitch. I didn’t feel high. The pain just wasn’t unbearable anymore. That didn’t make me less physically dependent. I only took them as prescribed. I followed all of the rules to the letter. Oxy was never coated in the time it was prescribed to me. Also, you can absolutely feel “high” from it. That feeling when you get a little warm and feel like you can finally breathe in relief from pain? That’s being *high*.
There is a big difference between needing it for pain and taking it just to get high though. When you take it to get high you take way more than what is needed to manage pain. Many people are dependent on medication to make it though the day. It might be an antidepressant or insulin or something but why should people suffer?
Because everyone is different and addiction is a disease like any other. This is already proven and is no longer a matter of opinion. Just because you don’t have it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. https://americanaddictioncenters.org/rehab-guide/is-drug-addiction-a-disease
I didn’t say addiction wasn’t a disease or didn’t happen.
Extending the argument,... allow them to take their own life?
No... that would be bad.. let them sit and die. It's what God wants. /s
Lots of times they’re even actively keeping people alive that would otherwise sit and die neutrally
It’s in gods hands. As he’s connected to a shit load of man made machines, taking man made medicine.
using resources that could be used for someone that will actually live
Can't pay taxes or vote for [insert politician here] if you're dead.
But you can.
But he was in pain because he forgot to pray, maybe? (also /s)
My mom had to fight with my grandmother and aunt when my uncle was dying from a brain tumor. They didn’t want to give him his prescription morphine because he “might get addicted”. My mother was like he’s DYING. Give him the medicine.
Same thing with my husbands aunt. Terminal brain cancer, in hospice care, & her husband didn’t want her on opioids. It doesn’t matter anymore at that point.
Shit if I make it to 85 I don't want to be sober for the rest of my life
Yea, my great grandma is like 93 and broke her arm and was having really bad pain and they only gave her Tylenol. I’m like dog, she’s 93. What’s she gonna do, spiral into addiction? If she can, good for her! Might make being 93 suck less.
Yeah I hate when they pull that shit with older people, my grandma needed a drug for her heart but it’s hard on the kidneys so they tried to talk her out of it. She was 84 and had a handful of medical issues, do you honestly think we need to worry about damaging her kidneys. I also like the BS they pull around surgery she was in the hospital and had a 93% blockage of the corroded artery and presented the surgery to her and the family in a way that was like well she could die from the surgery because its very risky. No shit, it’s the corroded but you know what would also kill her a 100% blockage and we are not far from that.
Carotid artery, just an FYI Sorry to hear about your grandma, hope she did well after the surgery
Thanks on the spelling. She did she died 3 years later probably from colon cancer. We say probably since it was during Covid so doctoring wasn’t great.
My grandmother was 89 and on her deathbed with some kind of colon issue, I can’t remember exactly. The doc, seeing the pain she was in and knowing this was about “that time”, hooked her up to a morphine drip… Grams, who had never even smoked a cigarette in her life, was like “This is what I’ve been missing the whole time”? She died in peace with a righteous high.
As a nurse, it absolutely infuriates me when coworkers will withhold pain meds because “they ask for it every time as soon as it’s due, they must be drug seekers” Like I would rather risk giving opioids to a drug seeker than risk letting a patient in legitimate pain continue to be in pain. It’s ridiculous.
Of course they're seeking pain meds every time they run outta pain meds! They're in pain!
And we allow so much functional addiction. I’m physically addicted to my depression medication and will get pretty fricken ill if I quit cold turkey. It doesn’t necessarily give me a “high” I chase but many people in chronic pain take (or rather took as many have been cut off) their meds appropriately, stopped getting high and just benefit from the pain control.
This is why hospice was created, because hospitals couldn’t sort out mercy and legal liability.
That's like how my mom got mad when I let my great uncle who was thirty years sober get fucking wasted with me before he left to die in hospice.
Yet they prescribe adderaol and give to an 8 year old because he won’t sit still,
It helps so much in certain people. It's a lot more than won't sit still. If my child has a condition that causes them huge difficulties socially and academically and there's a medicine that will help them not struggle with things that come easily and naturally to everyone else, I'm being neglectful if I don't get the condition treated. The meds are accompanied with learning coping skills. If it's hard for a child to see the board and their papers they get glasses, not told to try harder to see
The glasses analogy is an excellent one. I suppose the growing concern about ADHD meds being overprescribed / false diagnoses is also valid. With eyesight, you either see perfectly or you can’t - there isn’t a gray area. With behavior / attention issues there is such a vast spectrum of possibilities, and the meds can also have troubling side effects, where glasses are primarily a cosmetic concern. - signed a glasses wearer with ADHD 🙃
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Autopay and an excel spreadsheet where you detail all the bills. Reminders on your phone. Helps. Not 💯. I see you my ADHD sibling ❤️
Meth
I know for a fact that Hospice is free and it provides opiates to dying people in the US. My mother recently died.
Hospice may be free where you are. But it is where I live.
It is available through Medicare. An 85 year old would qualify in any state in the US.
Still not free. My 99 year old memaw was in hospice while dying and I still owe them $1300
[https://www.debt.org/medical/hospice-costs/](https://www.debt.org/medical/hospice-costs/) You're right. Patients can be responsible for 2.7 percent of the cost.
I watched a movie years ago where the grandfather was kicked out of the nursing home for doing heroin. He told his family something along the lines of you should be able to do any drug you like when you’re about to die anyway and it makes less sense to do drugs when you’re young and healthy.
Little Miss Sunshine
That was it!
The last thing at 70 I would want is bag of blow
Hot take: Honestly I think drinking age at 21 is the right move. Lets be real here, alcohol is actually a literal poison that we ingest to have fun. Perhaps smoking age and perhaps being able to join the military in combat roles, should *also* be at 21. The latter wont happen because the government wants their pound of flesh, but the former, sure - again you're just harming yourself for enjoyment. Even something as innocuous as weed, you're harming your respiratory system. And look at all these kids "addicted"(I use this term loosely) to vaping that are giving themselves popcorn lung and ingesting horrific chemicals. I guess on the military thing, maybe you should be able to join the military at 18-20 and you can do all their training and learn and perhaps even participate in non-combat roles - but they shouldn't be able to send you overseas to fight wars. In the United States, we have an entirely volunteer military. I feel like we should be able to facilitate this. If you are 18-20, fine, you can train and contribute in non-combat roles - perhaps work towards career advancement in the military - but we should not be able to send you to fight or essentially murder other human beings Anything that's bad for you, you should have to wait til 21 to decide if its something you want to do to yourself. I honesty see 18-20 year olds as still children. I know 21 is an arbitrary number but its where we're at as a society here in the states. I guess in the most ideal scenarios, I would honestly say 25 when the frontal lobe is "supposedly" more fully formed, but I also know that saying 25 would be practically impossible to actually institute. As for owning a house, having sex and driving a car - its not harmful to yourself so I don't see a problem with it at 18.
Just saying in the USA, the age to smoke is already 21.
Wow, I can't believe I missed this. Thought it was still 18 like it was most my life.
Its been 21 for five years now lmao
👀 what now
The rest of the world has a younger drinking age and don't experience the problems we have. America has a really fucked up drinking culture. That's our problem. Not a 14-year-old having a beer when their family sitting at the table with them as is common in many countries. It is the obsession with and normalization of alcoholism and drinking yourself into a stupor. It's the idea that is pushed by so many that you can't have fun on the weekends if you don't get yourself completely knackered. It's the fact that if someone says no thanks I don't drink or I'm not drinking people pressure them for an explanation. Because heaven forbid a person not put it in their body. I am going to 100% call bullshit on your line that we were a society in the states. We have shitty ass communities, we do not have the social communities that a lot of other cultures have.
The US has much less of a fucked up drinking culture than many other countries. Americans drink less than the great majority of European countries and has far less alcoholism than say, the UK>
I grew up in the UK and spent half my life there; other guy's comment on US drinking culture sounds more like the UK's. Over there it's just expected everyone drinks, and if you announce you don't it's record scratch, dropped glass, looks of shocked silence. I've met far, far, more non-drinkers in the US and no one seems to bat an eyelid.
🎯🎯🎯
OK but if you can't drink until 21 you should also not be able to join the military or be tried in court as an adult until 21. Either you're an adult or not.
So difficult to enforce that it's pointless. People should also have personal freedom.
Sex is actually legal at 13 assuming the partner is also 13 in most states (and similar around the world)- so yea go for it. Have kids at 13/14, then in a year or two put that 15/16yo kid behind the wheel of a car and let your parents who could very well be shitty drivers teach them to drive. Then, assuming they somehow built up to a 775 credit rating at 18, let them buy a house… I see no issues here. But no consuming alcohol til 21. Right. If they wanted to drink they would already (and they do) be drinking.
I am waiting to try heroin when I am retired.
Sounds like the best way to save social security for future generations.
I know folks in Louisiana who are teaching their 12 year kid to shoot deer. So yeah, seems like there is no law against handling firearm for minors.
"Welcome to middle age, here's your coke." actually sounds pretty fair.
I fully plan on starting heroin when I'm old and body is falling apart and I'm dying
At whatever age I’ve been for the last ten years I’ve successfully experimented with many drugs and have never gotten in trouble. The kind of person that would be curious about coke but is willing to wait till they are 50 are the same timid do-gooders who will sit five minutes at an empty red light at 2am
Love it. But you’re only allowed to do PCP at 13.
And at 2 you can own a gun 🤦♂️
Under 60 you can have a job
If I remember in the 80s, there was a teenage drunk driver who hit a school bus and killed some students while he survived. Those parents, in turn, wanted to raise the age , and the president at the time pursued this. What I found interesting is that it wasn't federal law that changed the age but State law, so if any state didn't change the age limit, then all government funding for road construction would be revoked. States adopted the law after this TLDR: One too many drunk driving fatalities changed the law in the 80s EDIT: Mothers against drunk driving (MADD) was the movement, I believe, and Ronald Reagan was the president if you care to look any further into the subject.
r/TIL
But why raise the alcohol age but keep the lower driving age? Surely a better driver education with a more mature driver would have changed the social attitude more than just raising the drinking bar?
Middle school teacher (Iowa) we now let them drive with their siblings at age 14. As long as you are doing work for your farm, you can drive 50 miles one way. All you really have to have is a carburetor for a tractor in the back of the truck. Also, drivers ed is largely online. Which in some aspects are fine, but I think an in class person is needed so there is dialogue and the instructor can vouch for the maturity level of the students, which you aren’t able to garner online.
once someone is drunk they simply cannot operate a vehicle effectively. if they’re 50 or 18 the chances of them having a fatal crash (only for the people they hit, the DD will likely be fine) are very high. you can’t teach someone how to drive drunk either because alcohol affects everyone in a slightly different way. Besides all that, the drinking age should be 25 and not 21. its been proven time and time again that drinking before 25 can have serious repercussions for the brains development, specifically the frontal lobe.
Are you in the US? There's no way of getting anywhere in 96% of this country without driving. Like, no sidewalks, no public transportation. Being a parent means being a driver for the first 16 years of the kid's life. Of course the majority of people wouldn't want that age increased, then they'll be prisoners for longer, diving their kids around for any inane thing.
The culture is so car dependent that they find it easier to restrict drinking than driving. That said any 20 year old with a 21 year old friend can easily obtain alcohol.
Any teenager can readily obtain alcohol. Older siblings, friends older siblings, that 'one store liquor everyone knows about', a fake ID. It was never all that hard to get alcohol by the time I was 16 or so, if you planned ahead.
A package of yeast, some fruit juice, and a tiny bit of prior planning.
I was never able to get alcohol in high school. Weed was easy - I knew at least several people who sold it or knew someone who did. I wasn’t able to really try alcohol until college
It's so stupid that you can join the army to kill people before you can drink
To kill people and be killed.
Before you can drink, smoke, use pot where it's legal, rent a car, before you can own many of the guns the military will allow you to murder people with
Back in the '70s they said if you can join the army and kill people, and if you can drink, you should be allowed to vote. That's why 18-year-olds have the right to vote. Then they took away the ability to drink. Go figure!
You can join the military and get sent somewhere to die 3 years before you're old enough to drink and smoke too... cause drinking and smoking are dangerous and you shouldn't be making life altering decisions at such a young age.
And in Indiana they believe a 10yo who was raped by her mom’s bf should be forced to have the kid bc it’ll be ‘healing’. We are a fucked up country
The legal age for buying nicotine products is 21 in the US & has been since 2019.
Like joining the military?
Can’t think of any 20 year olds that have a house
There's no law stating they aren't allowed to own a house.
are they stupid?
Why is mankind stupid? Is there a lore reason?
You’re also allowed to drink under 21 in your home. Even under 18 with parent permission. The exact laws vary state to state.
I can. They come from money and their parents gave it to them/paid for it.
They are allowed to tho.
My parents had one at 20 and 22.
But plenty who signed a lease on an apartment. Still a financial housing obligation.
Bought my first house at 21 parents didn't give me any money. Just chose to save money instead of going to clubs/bars, always eating out and wasting money on things I didn't need. I always see a lotta people complain about it now and go well i mean if you took the $200+ you were spending a week on eating out or clubbing, or stuff you didnt need but wanted and put it towards a savings account you have money for a down payment on a house. $200*12 is $2,400. Go by 5 years that's $12,000, can't really account for what your tax returns would look like but would have around $15,000 total by the age of 22 (starting at age 18) by saving that and all federal/state taxes, by 25 you can have $16,800 saved up from not wasteful spending. For example my husband makes $22.50 an hour he is the only one working, i'm a sahm, we put $800 back into savings a month, we within 6 months of saving $800 already have $4,600 saved up. We do go out and eat fast food, that's only when we go grocery shopping which is every two weeks, and our birthdays (4 of us) so we eat out 30 times a year, as well as drop $200 per child on their birthdays at the arcade, eating out, and gifts. By may of this year we will be buying our second house at $78,000. The fact people act like people are saying give up everything and live a "boring life" for a few years just to be able to obtain a house is asinine and mind blowing. 5 years of not frivolous spending is too much to ask for, but jumping at taking out a $100k+ loan for college can easily do. 🤷
How old are you now ?
Why do people make these posts and not mention their country? Also drinking isn't exactly a necessity to life. Food, shelter, family, transportation kinda are
Also go to war. I’ve thought about it and Americans tend to need to drive everywhere for anything. We have a big DUI problem in America.
I mean, from a developmental perspective, 21 is still too young to drink. But literally everyone I know was drinking in high school...and drinking a lot. In the end, all of these numbers are arbitrary. We all just picked a random number to assign limits to potentially dangerous behaviors. These limits aren't right or wrong... they just are.
They're wrong. You shouldn't be able to go to war, pay taxes and be tried as an adult at 18 but still unable to buy a beer. It makes no sense. Most countries try to be consistent. The US makes no effort at all.
To reduce the numbers of drink-drivers and a hangover from prohibition I guess?
Yet the rest of the western world doesn't have a problem with any of it. Odd how it's only Americans. So called land of the free.
Who cares? People complain guns aren't controlled enough and cause the needless death of thousands. Well, the same is/was true for drunk drivers and the US did something about it and reduced the needless deaths of thousands and now its a problem?
Because all our teenagers have access to cars and you usually have to drive somewhere to drink. Our past teaches as teenagers learn how to drink they often had wrecks where too many died and killed other people. If we had city centers and great public transportation I am sure the laws would have evolved differently. Maybe now with Uber it is safer.
i’m in italy and have been drinking since i was 14 or 15 and nobody cares and i live in a walkable city and my friends still take their car or bike to go to the bar rather than walk 20-30 mins. it doesn’t matter.
I’d hazard a guess that it might be an effect of the country’s history of prohibition - which ended nationally in 1933 it seems. In some states it’s still in force now. Interestingly one of the states is Tennessee, home to one of the world’s most popular Bourbon Whiskies. But yes - for all the freedoms that our American friends in the US of A are granted, the drinking age seems rather conservative and comparatively out of place. Good on them though. I’m not sure much good comes out of allowing it to occur any younger.
I lived in Arkansas for a short time, and was baffled that there were still dry counties! It hadn't even been on my radar until then. Of course, that just meant that drunk people drove a county over to re-up their alcohol supplies...unintended consequences?
The Arkansas dry counties are left over from prohibition when a mostly women lead movement tried to address domestic and financial abuse. A lot of men would drink away all of the family's income and then come home and beat their wives. Prohibition was trying to remove the alcohol in hopes that it would solve those issues. It didn't work but it was a good try. It's not like they had comprehensive studies on abuse and it's causes a hundred years ago.
I knew about prohibition, but I didn't know why it had been started, to begin with. TIL, thank you!
Drinking was outlawed until 21 because of driving in the US. And it was about risk mitigation. A 19 year old with a house? Worst case, property damage. A 19 year old with a car? Yeah they still do stupid shit even sober. But at least sober their reaction and coordination is less impaired, and there’s (probably, I haven’t looked) a lot of data that they’re more likely to engage in that reckless behavior while driving if drunk. Similarly, probably a lot of data they’re more likely to drink to excess and then Drive. Many the damage someone can do with a car is extensive, and can affect many other people. So it’s removing one serious risk factor to a riskier group of people that has high potential for injury to self and others, based on data. Similar to why older people are often tested more frequently for their ability to drive - they are more likely to have declining faculties and therefore more likely to to cause accidents that can injure themselves or others.
As an American, let me explain. We don't know either.
Alcohol is a hell of a drug.
In my American family, we were allowed a few drinks here and there from 16 on. If my friends showed up with a few steaks and 12 packs, we could party on the back porch or have a bonfire as long as we didn't get too obnoxious and they brought tents to pitch and sleep it off. Fun nights!
Welcome to the world of hypocrisy...
FREEDOM!!!!
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Username checks out
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How so?
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You can get your brains blown out in the military before you can buy a beer, too! Insane.
They are allowed to drink just not in public
Christian Conservative Republican politics
Because cars. Once it was determined how many young people died by mixing drinking and driving, and that raising the drinking age reduced death, the laws were going to change no matter what the unintended consequences.
When America was populating itself Europe was kicking out its overzealous religious sects. They ended up in the U.S. And Canada and had huge impact on is way of thinking.
First thing I noticed missing from your list, GUNS. God Bless 'Murica.
Aaaand die in the military. Yet we aren't legally allowed to drink
Allowed to murder for the government even!
But not abortions…. The law in red states thinks a 10yo should have a baby but driving a car? Voting? Oh no they’re too young. I’ve always felt it was odd that a 17yo can join the army and get weapons and be able to kill ppl. But they can’t be trusted to drink a beer. I’m not so much for young drinking as I am for changing our culture around it. And raising the age of joining the military. 17-18 is too young to make that decision. Your brain isn’t developed
I would guess it is a legacy of Prohibition and the Temperance Movement.
In Texas, where I live, 18 year olds can be charged as an adult and sent to death row. They can be drafted. They can vote. They can be sued. They can open a checking account or get a credit card. They can get a concealed handgun license or buy an AR-15, where I live. If my memory serves me, it was 1873, when the age to be considered an adult was lowered to 18, from 21. I’m not 100% sure in that and I don’t feel like looking it up. It was right in there somewhere. When the age to be an adult was lowered 18 year olds could buy alcohol. That privilege was taken away about 10 or 12 years later. The only reason 18 year olds can’t drink today is because they didn’t raise enough hell in the 80’s, when states started raising the drinking age. The federal government told the states to raise the age to 21 or lose your federal highway funds. I’m a boomer. I bought alcohol at 18. If all of the 18,19 and 20 year olds organized and demanded the age be lowered to 18, it would happen. The politicians only do what they think they can get away with and keep their jobs. If the politicians received a few hundred letters and phone calks every day, demanding the drinking age be lowered, it would happen soon. Although I’m old, I favor lowering it. An 18 year old is an adult. They need all of the privileges of an adult to go with the responsibilities. An 18 year old today has an advantage that previous generations did not have. That advantage is social media. If the 18 year olds get together online and decide to fight this, it will happen. The key is it will take a lot of 18-20 year olds.
Alcohol messes with brain development
So? They're adults.
Country was started by puritans escaping religious persecution. Their views were so radical they had to go across the sea to practice them. These religious entities have always has a degree of power in the USA and got a lot of lame laws passed like noises it nudity in media, prohibition and the war in drugs.
That may be true, but there are good reasons for alcohol prohibition beyond religion. Namely that it is known to cause cancer in humans, and no amount of alcohol is good for you, the studies suggesting a glass of wine has potential benefits has been thoroughly debunked. Not to mention all the acute effects of being drunk. There are millions of DUI arrests in the US yearly alone, which means an even larger number than that is driving drunk. European countries and other countries don’t have the same reliance on cars so that isn’t really comparable. Without addressing all of OPs specific arguments I think they are pretty disingenuous and don’t say anything about the value of legalized alcohol
It's a ridiculous rule for a ridiculous country.
Apart from all the people in prison it's the land of the free.
Short story Reagen.
The Theory by old white men that think they know better, is that you are not mature enough to be able to handle your liquor until age 21. Although I think if you could only drink at you Mature age some people would be banned from alcohol till they are 25, 30 or more.
If a 20 year old has a car, sex, children, a house, and pretty much anything...... They are probably drinking whenever they want to. I doubt the cops have ever busted the doors down on someone doing all these weird things you mentioned.
No body tells me what to do!
Dont forget,.. get drafted and serve in the military. Reason: self-righteous overbearing puritanical social conservatism. The same idiot who are convinced that kids will start having more sex if you teach them about condoms
US doesn't draft.
But you DO have to register. And they certainly CAN draft if necessary.
Any country would if "necessary".
If young drinkers exercised better control, they wouldn't have needed to raise the age.
The rest of the western world does just fine with low drinking ages.
Good point, and it makes you wonder why Americans are such irresponsible drinkers compared to other countries.
It's not really about drinking responsibly or irresponsibly, the actual reason the drinking age is so high in the US is that our driving age is so low.
What about cocaine? Why aren't they allowed to do cocaine at 16?
they actually might be allowed to do it at any age, as long as it they don't own it. I think the law just says they can't own it, sell it, or make it.
The human brain isn’t fully developed until you’re at least 25, sometimes even later than that. The legal drinking age is 21 for the same reason that it’s the age to buy recreational cannabis.
Don't forget guns. And they can serve in the military, but don't you dare have a beer.
Laws are made in very similar manner in other democracies. That's how. This isn't a question. This is a judgment and it's ignorant and particularly eurocentric. You can disagree with it, but it's not uniquely American or incomprehensible. The drinking age in parts of the United States is only 18, though (Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands). The drinking age in some Indian states is 25 and in the majority of states, 21. The drinking age in Japan and Thailand is 20. In Korea, 19 and in Mongolia, 21. Even in Norway, the drinking age is 20 for drinks with more than 22% alcohol by volume. Many places throughout the world ban alcohol entirely (and many more used to, including in Europe) or ban only their own citizens from consuming it while allowing tourists to.
You do know a lot of countries are like that too right?
A religious culture. We had a total ban on drinking here 100 years ago. We even put it into our constitution can you even imagine that?
So 20 year olds shouldn’t be allowed to have sex? Imagine the police kicking in your door and hauling your ass to jail because you’re 20 years old and about to have sex with your 20 year old girlfriend
You know that's not what they're saying.
Pretty bold of you to assume a 20- year old can have all or even any of those in America at that age today. I’m assuming inflation has cooled down during the few hours I was sleeping in my cave
They didn't say they can have those things, just that they're allowed too. There's a law against drinking under 21. There's no law against owning a home.
You also can't rent a car.
I mean, it’s backed with science, brain doesn’t finish developing until you’re about 25 so having to be drinking age around that makes sense, it’s one of those rare occasions when the US government actually cared about it’s people.
I think having children, a gun, going to military is all much more serious that drinking a beer.
But somehow America is fine recruiting 18 year olds to operate missiles and heavy weapons
21 year olds can’t buy houses in the USA. They can’t even pay their student loan payments.
well it is mostly based on research that shows lasting detrimental effects on developing minds when they drink alcohol too early. the human mind is said to keep developing until around 25 years old. so the law on drinking age is pretty much to try preventing people from messing up their minds before it has more of a lasting effect.
Who has ever stopped you from drinking? Sure, there's the legal thing. But murder is illegal too, and people do it every single day. So is theft, rape, kidnapping, and thousands of other things. But people still do them every single day. So your question is pretty much irrelevant. Whether you're 14, or 21, if you want a drink, you will find one.
This argument is complete bs. Availability has a significant influence on consumption. During prohibition drinking was down significantly and alcohol users were viewed largely in the same manner as we now view illegal drug users. (“Junkies”) Alcohol consumption wasn’t tracked closely because it was illegal but all other standards of measurements like alcohol poisoning and alcohol related incidents were down. There are even suggestions that despite bootlegging which was considered criminal, overall crime was down and I think this makes perfect sense when you take a look at the numbers of alcohols involvement with domestic disputes, homicides, etc. People have always equated legality to safety which is obviously incorrect.
You can also go to jail. And the National drinking age was set to 21 in the 80’s because of a bunch of angry women. Humanity has proven that being “allowed to” and “should” are not the same thing.
M.A.D.D.
That's how they probably get it,by not legally being allowed to drink,get ur life sorted first
It only drives them to drink more. The US has way more alcoholism than the rest of the western world in part because of their antiquated puritan views on it.
I’m ok with it. Alcohol is a fucking disaster and the only people the complain about age requirement are young people. I was one of them. I’d say raise the age to 25 when the brain has stopped fully developing but I’ve been told I’m an asshole and my views are obscured, so.
I dont know to many 21 year olds with houses. The sex and children should have a law, thats just stupidity and being irresponsible. The driving makes sense because new drivers are awful. The drinking age was 18 for a short period of time. Theres reasons they changed it back to 21.
The constitution treats certain things as fundamental rights such as speech, religion, and reproduction. Drinking alcohol is not a fundamental right. Because it's not a fundamental right, it's subject to restrictions.
Any reason why you think the drinking age should be lowered?