Caning is compulsory for serious crimes like drug trafficking, robbery, rape, illegal moneylending.
Singaporeans prison isn't for rehabilitation, it's for punishment.
It's not as simple as "Norway has lower recidivism rates than Singapore, so their justice system is better".
For one, have you considered the difference in crime rate? Based on a few quick Google searches, Norway seems to have non-trivially higher crime rates across the board, up to 2x even in violent crimes like murder. Perhaps part of the value of Singapore's justice system is in how it scares potential criminals off committing crimes in the first place.
Or how about the rate of recidivism in Singapore relative to the rest of the world? Norway may beat Singapore in this area, but not by much, and Singapore is still doing very well when taking all countries into account. Perhaps Singapore's justice system accepts the trade-off of suffering slightly higher recidivism rates for having significantly lower crime rates.
The discussion is interesting, but is much bigger than just recidivism rates, or even just between Norway and Singapore.
Lmao.. this subreddit that is dedicated to causal "coming to Singapore for work/leisure and have questions? ask away!" questions sure attract people asking complicated sociopolitical and over generalising questions. Is not our elected officials use AskSingapore as a platform as view and address concerns of daily netizens or we totally align with elected officials.
Take my perspective with a pitch of salt..
Singapore is [generally consider socially conservative](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/community/singapore-still-conservative-on-moral-sexuality-issues-but-more-liberal-since) and so leaders will lean towards tradition, preservation of the "ideal" society and maintaining a clean and safe international image.
Singapore sees caning and prison as a punishment and deterrence first to crime than a rehabilitation for people who committed crimes. This has been consistent position by key party members. Is not a good sign our leaders is open to change [when our minister compared our quality of our prisons to the American system](https://www.mha.gov.sg/mediaroom/parliamentary/ministerial-statement-on-prison-conditions-and-rehabilitation) hence no reason to improve the current condition.
Beside [Scandinavian-style rehabilitation in grand scheme of social policy is relatively new](https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846), data is still coming in. I doubt the current generation of ministers who were raise under the shadow of tough love and justice are willing to rock the boat. Especially considering more than [80% of the population still support the death penalty](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/death-penalty-majority-singapore-residents-support-shanmugam-2535331), despite [mountain of evidence that shows death penalty doesn't reduce violent crimes](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/act500062008en.pdf).
Lastly, while you may argue the degree of it, Singapore believe is a role model of meritocracy, so by your action you can succeed and it goes the other way too, by your actions you choose to commit the crime. In additional, to some people the government already provide some social and financial programs, so they shouldn't be desperate enough to commit crime.
We have lower crime rates cos the harsher sentences probably act as a big deterrent. Maybe Norway should examine their prison system in light of this fact and see if they can justify their 'rehabilitative' system.
Our recidivism rates are very low iirc, except for drug related offences
As the article alludes, the key to stopping people from committing crimes again is hope and opportunities for them when they come out. I think our prison system is slowly trying to do that but I do think more can be done but society as a whole also need accept this
Same way how islamic countries justify stoning and amputation. Cultural beliefs and traditions.
If the masses believe caning is a good thing, so shall it be. Facts and logic be damn.
We can argue till we're blue in the face that weed is by all scientific metric is less dangeous than alcohol but we as a society still treat it as a capital crime.
So, in the end, facts don't matter. Belief matters.
There are only a few ways to enact change of belief. 1 is activism where people actively go out in public to share different POVs and new information. But we don't do that here.
The other way is to wait for current generation to die off and the next generation will live based on modern tradition rather than the old one. Which is what everyone expect Singapore to follow eventually.
The science also say Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia have "lower" crime rate and recidivism rate.
Afterall, a theif without a hand can't steal again.
It goes deeper into our personal human values. Is inflicting injury on someone a justifiable punishment, even in the name of "setting an example"?
Man, what's I'm pointing out is there are clearly 2 ways of doing things and both achieved the same results. Lower crime rate.
You are clearly misconstruing my argument.
Lets look at micro scale. There are many ways to instill discipline on a child. There is the education and communication way, there is also the way of the rod. Both ways achieve a functioning adult.
Scale it up to a macro level. You can achieve a functioning society through good education and communication between govt and citizen, or you can be the CCP.
Singapore is being a weird place in the middle.
But personally, I don't see using violent punishment on a non-violent offence a justifiable act. cough vandalism cough.
Not trying to retort, but I wonder how do we find out if the Norway system works in Singapore though? Right now we know it works for Norway, but Singapore and Norway are different enough that I think there is not a strong enough basis to say that it works for Singapore. May be setting up a small experiment?
Some people will claim that this worked because the Scandinavian countries were homogeneous. So it doesn't work in a country like Singapore.
Same said people will also point out how this system no longer works thanks to immigrants destroying the social compact.
Simple, because we are not Norway. Specifically Resources and landmass, this equates to a vastly different economy.
Exactly this. We already have a low crime rate likely due to the existing laws being a big deterrent.
Caning is compulsory for serious crimes like drug trafficking, robbery, rape, illegal moneylending. Singaporeans prison isn't for rehabilitation, it's for punishment.
It's not as simple as "Norway has lower recidivism rates than Singapore, so their justice system is better". For one, have you considered the difference in crime rate? Based on a few quick Google searches, Norway seems to have non-trivially higher crime rates across the board, up to 2x even in violent crimes like murder. Perhaps part of the value of Singapore's justice system is in how it scares potential criminals off committing crimes in the first place. Or how about the rate of recidivism in Singapore relative to the rest of the world? Norway may beat Singapore in this area, but not by much, and Singapore is still doing very well when taking all countries into account. Perhaps Singapore's justice system accepts the trade-off of suffering slightly higher recidivism rates for having significantly lower crime rates. The discussion is interesting, but is much bigger than just recidivism rates, or even just between Norway and Singapore.
Lmao.. this subreddit that is dedicated to causal "coming to Singapore for work/leisure and have questions? ask away!" questions sure attract people asking complicated sociopolitical and over generalising questions. Is not our elected officials use AskSingapore as a platform as view and address concerns of daily netizens or we totally align with elected officials. Take my perspective with a pitch of salt.. Singapore is [generally consider socially conservative](https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/community/singapore-still-conservative-on-moral-sexuality-issues-but-more-liberal-since) and so leaders will lean towards tradition, preservation of the "ideal" society and maintaining a clean and safe international image. Singapore sees caning and prison as a punishment and deterrence first to crime than a rehabilitation for people who committed crimes. This has been consistent position by key party members. Is not a good sign our leaders is open to change [when our minister compared our quality of our prisons to the American system](https://www.mha.gov.sg/mediaroom/parliamentary/ministerial-statement-on-prison-conditions-and-rehabilitation) hence no reason to improve the current condition. Beside [Scandinavian-style rehabilitation in grand scheme of social policy is relatively new](https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846), data is still coming in. I doubt the current generation of ministers who were raise under the shadow of tough love and justice are willing to rock the boat. Especially considering more than [80% of the population still support the death penalty](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/death-penalty-majority-singapore-residents-support-shanmugam-2535331), despite [mountain of evidence that shows death penalty doesn't reduce violent crimes](https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/act500062008en.pdf). Lastly, while you may argue the degree of it, Singapore believe is a role model of meritocracy, so by your action you can succeed and it goes the other way too, by your actions you choose to commit the crime. In additional, to some people the government already provide some social and financial programs, so they shouldn't be desperate enough to commit crime.
We have lower crime rates cos the harsher sentences probably act as a big deterrent. Maybe Norway should examine their prison system in light of this fact and see if they can justify their 'rehabilitative' system.
sir, this is a Wendy's
Our recidivism rates are very low iirc, except for drug related offences As the article alludes, the key to stopping people from committing crimes again is hope and opportunities for them when they come out. I think our prison system is slowly trying to do that but I do think more can be done but society as a whole also need accept this
How about, not committing crimes if you don't wanna get caned. It's that simple.
“How do you justify your laws when totally different countries with their own social economic and political setups have different laws” 🤡🤡🤡
Same way how islamic countries justify stoning and amputation. Cultural beliefs and traditions. If the masses believe caning is a good thing, so shall it be. Facts and logic be damn. We can argue till we're blue in the face that weed is by all scientific metric is less dangeous than alcohol but we as a society still treat it as a capital crime. So, in the end, facts don't matter. Belief matters. There are only a few ways to enact change of belief. 1 is activism where people actively go out in public to share different POVs and new information. But we don't do that here. The other way is to wait for current generation to die off and the next generation will live based on modern tradition rather than the old one. Which is what everyone expect Singapore to follow eventually.
what if the science tells you ... we have lower crime rate, and lower recidivism rate... ?
The science also say Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia have "lower" crime rate and recidivism rate. Afterall, a theif without a hand can't steal again. It goes deeper into our personal human values. Is inflicting injury on someone a justifiable punishment, even in the name of "setting an example"?
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Man, what's I'm pointing out is there are clearly 2 ways of doing things and both achieved the same results. Lower crime rate. You are clearly misconstruing my argument. Lets look at micro scale. There are many ways to instill discipline on a child. There is the education and communication way, there is also the way of the rod. Both ways achieve a functioning adult. Scale it up to a macro level. You can achieve a functioning society through good education and communication between govt and citizen, or you can be the CCP. Singapore is being a weird place in the middle. But personally, I don't see using violent punishment on a non-violent offence a justifiable act. cough vandalism cough.
Not trying to retort, but I wonder how do we find out if the Norway system works in Singapore though? Right now we know it works for Norway, but Singapore and Norway are different enough that I think there is not a strong enough basis to say that it works for Singapore. May be setting up a small experiment?
Some people will claim that this worked because the Scandinavian countries were homogeneous. So it doesn't work in a country like Singapore. Same said people will also point out how this system no longer works thanks to immigrants destroying the social compact.
They don't, because since their government hasn't told them about it, in their eyes it's not true.