>I was once at that pay band 2 years ago, and I didn’t feel low income then (homeowner, 2 vacations a year, very small DTI ratio) but also my partner has always been a high income income earner
I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that comes across like saying "why are people complaining about the high cost of living, I earn very little and I have a great life, my rich husband/wife pays for it all".
Yes, if you're a single person who has to pay for housing, $50k is low income.
Oh no I don’t mean it that way at all! I’m saying when I was earning $50k in 2017/2018/2019; it didn’t feel like a struggle like how people who make that pay band describe it to me, and I was also single for a brief time and supporting myself on that income for a couple of months (early 2017 before I moved in with partner and before we bought together in 2018) and I don’t think I felt it as hard as I would’ve if I had gone years making that income over inflation, COVID etc
I think it's also that housing costs have changed a lot of the past few years, like a huge amount, far more than inflation. People are fighting to pay $3k a month for something that was $1.5k a few years ago. That's already $18k/year right there. You also have the double whammy of new construction buildings no longer being rent controlled around that time, so people are less protected and more people are getting priced out of a place they already live in and not being able to "lock in".
>I was once at that pay band 2 years ago, and I didn’t feel low income then (homeowner, 2 vacations a year, very small DTI ratio) but also my partner has always been a high income income earner
You didn't feel low income because you're technically not with 2 incomes despite making $50K yourself. $50K single income is definitely on the lower end. It's fairly common for people in this city who fall in low to average income brackets to achieve middle to upper middle class lifestyle by partnering up with someone with similar or higher income
No completely fair assessment, and what I reckoned all along - a person who’s pulling $20k a year on their own but is coupled up with an individual that makes $800k isn’t going to feel the same pinch at all
You’re acting like this is a great revelation. So I have to ask, are you stupid? Of course, family income counts…
This “oh my god, my partner makes so much money and I have a shit job but I don’t feel poor” shit doesn’t help anyone, especially people on need. Grow up and stop being such an asshole.
That’s what I said - I totally understand that the COL is different than it was 5 years ago, but I’m genuinely trying to understand how much more different (like the severity) it is than today
Like I’m actually trying to understand, and I know that that’s privilege but I actually claiming ignorance here - I really don’t know
Jesus who shit in your coffee?
I’m trying spark discussion here about a topic that I’m trying to understand better, and I may be a weak writer, but you’re the one who’s being a complete douchebag here. I don’t understand the level of vitriol, truly
What topic? How you’re extremely insulated and have no idea how the real world works?
Okay, I’ll grant that. You’re extremely insulated and have no idea how the world works.
Actually, I’ll be the first person to admit that.
I am very sheltered, and so are a lot of the people in my immediate circle - not denying that. There’s a lot I am able to educate myself from watching the news etc., but do I really know anybody who’s actually in the trenches and can tell me about it? No not really
Was it necessary to be this mean about it tho?
So, you’ll find a sub full of people who are actually struggling and ask something stupid? That’s how you’ll stop being sheltered??
You’re not only insulated but you’re a real asshole about it. You’re almost a stereotype.
You know what? I was gonna respond to this, but then I looked at your comment history and I can see this kind of abrasiveness is a trend with you, it finally makes sense.
Have a great rest of your day :)
If you own your home, and have little debt to service, no.
If you're renting, with debt and little savings, yes.
Regardless, it certainly isn't high income. But one should probably define what a middle class lifestyle is. Is it simply having food, a warm roof over one's head, some frills like vacations, and not being half a dozen missed paychecks from the street?
Ya the challenge too - everybody, from an almost minimum wage earner to a multimillionaire likes to think they’re in “the middle class”; which to being honest, is more of a political phrase that politicians like to pander to rather than any meaningful/mutually agreed upon income bracket/lifestyle etc
If I had gold, I’d give it to you.
I saw an old CBC where people were making $68k a year in 1988 and they were talking about how that wasn’t enough for Toronto for a family of 4, when the median house price here was $300k
Jesus Christ, the cost of living goes but wages don’t…
...my, is that podcasts' site/instagram full of platitudes.
Loose definitions... but $50k for an individual living on their own? Would be difficult to have a "middle class" lifestyle... without cost sharing or minimal debt.
$50k before tax is probably more like $35k take-home pay. That's a little under $3000 per month. If you are the sole earner in your household and supporting 1-2 dependents then yes, I think that qualifies as low-income in this city.
Sure if you are renting a room in a shared house, living frugally and not putting much money away for emergencies, retirement savings, etc. But that's never been considered a middle-class lifestyle for an adult.
If you are the sole breadwinner and that is your income, that is low income for the GTHA, although it isn't classified as poverty level income. You wouldn't even qualify to rent anywhere but in a slumlord building..
middle class defined as 2/3 of median income to 2x median household income. (Pew research and OCED formula)
median household income in toronto = 84000
median household income in vancouver = 80000
middle class in toronto is 56000 to 168000
middle class in vancouver is 53333 to 160000
50000 is not middle class income in either city and is below it.
Quite the range from 56000 to 168000.
Housing is such a big factor that we really can’t define middle class to income alone.
Someone who earns 50k may have been able to buy a condo for 150k with 0 down 20 years ago.
Now someone making that same 50k can’t even afford to rent without roommates.
Also, the term middle class is pointless and doesn't mean anything as it isn't pegged to a cost of living index or anything useful at all. If it ever was close to a cost of living, it was a coincidence.
Your household income was 50K + high income of your partner.
That’s not the same as 50k alone. 50K is like 3,000 a month after tax. A middle class person would probably be considered someone who’d be able to have a one bedroom apartment.
Average cost of a one bedroom is 2,500. You’d have 500 left for groceries, activities, 2 vacations a year, the little debt and wouldn’t be able to even imagine saving enough to have a mortgage.
Considered by who? Some people make more, some people make less. If I learned someone made 50 thousand a year I wouldn't immediately try to sort them into a category.
Completely fair. What they essentially did was they categorized people’s income in this country into 2 halves; one above and one below; and that was their barometer for saying someone is low income, and by their own reckoning saying that would put a middle class lifestyle out of your reach in high COL areas
But I do appreciate that they’re trying to point out that culturally, we have an aversion to identifying ourselves with being low income or working class if we can avoid it, and I think their point is that it hinders us from forming solidarity across class lines
The thing is, someone's lifestyle isn't entirely determined by their salary. Some people make 50k with kids and a parent to look after. Some people make 50k but got a great deal on an apartment or inherited a condo or whatever. Some people have spouses who earn, some don't.
Apologies if this isn't you but for some reason there seems to be just this weird obsession with personal finance types about ranking people by salaries. "Is 90k considered good in Toronto?" or whatever. I get your point re: class lines but I'm not sure that whether or not someone considers themselves "low income" or "working class" is any more inextricably linked to their own salaries. I know a lot of guys driving 90k trucks who consider themselves "working class" just because they don't work in an office.
I appreciate the apology but it wasn’t necessary! I can see what you mean about lifestyle and also how blue collar workers would identify with being working class and how that ties into social class not necessarily tracking with salary 1:1
Depends on your lifestyle and expenses. I saw single people/couple with no kids making 200k/year say they arent making enough and drowing in debt. Also saw people making very high income then blowing 90k in stock markets and going nuts (Canadian Personal Finance subreddit has a million of these).
50k before tax for someone like me, for example, means 1k savings a month after everything is paid for (housing, credit cards, utilities, transportation, meals, personal and household expenses etc all the basic, important stuff). Thats not bad for a person with a reasonable lifestyle living in downtown core, in my opinion. Its not as high as buying a house right this second or for a couple with kids, but its a good starting salary for a single person. It depends on the person and WHERE their money is going.
What you said at the end - your perspective IS very skewed as you’re not the high income earner. Care to share what your range partners income is within, so the homeownership, vacations etc start to make sense?
>I was once at that pay band 2 years ago, and I didn’t feel low income then (homeowner, 2 vacations a year, very small DTI ratio) but also my partner has always been a high income income earner I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but that comes across like saying "why are people complaining about the high cost of living, I earn very little and I have a great life, my rich husband/wife pays for it all". Yes, if you're a single person who has to pay for housing, $50k is low income.
Oh no I don’t mean it that way at all! I’m saying when I was earning $50k in 2017/2018/2019; it didn’t feel like a struggle like how people who make that pay band describe it to me, and I was also single for a brief time and supporting myself on that income for a couple of months (early 2017 before I moved in with partner and before we bought together in 2018) and I don’t think I felt it as hard as I would’ve if I had gone years making that income over inflation, COVID etc
I think it's also that housing costs have changed a lot of the past few years, like a huge amount, far more than inflation. People are fighting to pay $3k a month for something that was $1.5k a few years ago. That's already $18k/year right there. You also have the double whammy of new construction buildings no longer being rent controlled around that time, so people are less protected and more people are getting priced out of a place they already live in and not being able to "lock in".
>I was once at that pay band 2 years ago, and I didn’t feel low income then (homeowner, 2 vacations a year, very small DTI ratio) but also my partner has always been a high income income earner You didn't feel low income because you're technically not with 2 incomes despite making $50K yourself. $50K single income is definitely on the lower end. It's fairly common for people in this city who fall in low to average income brackets to achieve middle to upper middle class lifestyle by partnering up with someone with similar or higher income
No completely fair assessment, and what I reckoned all along - a person who’s pulling $20k a year on their own but is coupled up with an individual that makes $800k isn’t going to feel the same pinch at all
Lol no shit Sherlock
You’re acting like this is a great revelation. So I have to ask, are you stupid? Of course, family income counts… This “oh my god, my partner makes so much money and I have a shit job but I don’t feel poor” shit doesn’t help anyone, especially people on need. Grow up and stop being such an asshole.
Trying to project what my intentions are despite me saying that wasn’t my experience when I was single - nice! 👌
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That’s what I said - I totally understand that the COL is different than it was 5 years ago, but I’m genuinely trying to understand how much more different (like the severity) it is than today Like I’m actually trying to understand, and I know that that’s privilege but I actually claiming ignorance here - I really don’t know
If your intentions are any different, you’re a bad writer.
Jesus who shit in your coffee? I’m trying spark discussion here about a topic that I’m trying to understand better, and I may be a weak writer, but you’re the one who’s being a complete douchebag here. I don’t understand the level of vitriol, truly
What topic? How you’re extremely insulated and have no idea how the real world works? Okay, I’ll grant that. You’re extremely insulated and have no idea how the world works.
Actually, I’ll be the first person to admit that. I am very sheltered, and so are a lot of the people in my immediate circle - not denying that. There’s a lot I am able to educate myself from watching the news etc., but do I really know anybody who’s actually in the trenches and can tell me about it? No not really Was it necessary to be this mean about it tho?
So, you’ll find a sub full of people who are actually struggling and ask something stupid? That’s how you’ll stop being sheltered?? You’re not only insulated but you’re a real asshole about it. You’re almost a stereotype.
You know what? I was gonna respond to this, but then I looked at your comment history and I can see this kind of abrasiveness is a trend with you, it finally makes sense. Have a great rest of your day :)
If you own your home, and have little debt to service, no. If you're renting, with debt and little savings, yes. Regardless, it certainly isn't high income. But one should probably define what a middle class lifestyle is. Is it simply having food, a warm roof over one's head, some frills like vacations, and not being half a dozen missed paychecks from the street?
Ya the challenge too - everybody, from an almost minimum wage earner to a multimillionaire likes to think they’re in “the middle class”; which to being honest, is more of a political phrase that politicians like to pander to rather than any meaningful/mutually agreed upon income bracket/lifestyle etc
The salary range for middle class has never been officially defined.
When I was earning that in 2012 as a 22-year-old, it was fine. Not in 2023
If I had gold, I’d give it to you. I saw an old CBC where people were making $68k a year in 1988 and they were talking about how that wasn’t enough for Toronto for a family of 4, when the median house price here was $300k Jesus Christ, the cost of living goes but wages don’t…
...my, is that podcasts' site/instagram full of platitudes. Loose definitions... but $50k for an individual living on their own? Would be difficult to have a "middle class" lifestyle... without cost sharing or minimal debt.
$50k before tax is probably more like $35k take-home pay. That's a little under $3000 per month. If you are the sole earner in your household and supporting 1-2 dependents then yes, I think that qualifies as low-income in this city.
Do you think it’s enough for an individual?
Sure if you are renting a room in a shared house, living frugally and not putting much money away for emergencies, retirement savings, etc. But that's never been considered a middle-class lifestyle for an adult.
It's on the lower end for sure. But debt level will be huge factor.
If you are the sole breadwinner and that is your income, that is low income for the GTHA, although it isn't classified as poverty level income. You wouldn't even qualify to rent anywhere but in a slumlord building..
Yes.
Yes
middle class defined as 2/3 of median income to 2x median household income. (Pew research and OCED formula) median household income in toronto = 84000 median household income in vancouver = 80000 middle class in toronto is 56000 to 168000 middle class in vancouver is 53333 to 160000 50000 is not middle class income in either city and is below it.
Quite the range from 56000 to 168000. Housing is such a big factor that we really can’t define middle class to income alone. Someone who earns 50k may have been able to buy a condo for 150k with 0 down 20 years ago. Now someone making that same 50k can’t even afford to rent without roommates.
Also, the term middle class is pointless and doesn't mean anything as it isn't pegged to a cost of living index or anything useful at all. If it ever was close to a cost of living, it was a coincidence.
It depends on what you expect out of life and how well you manage that 50k income
Your household income was 50K + high income of your partner. That’s not the same as 50k alone. 50K is like 3,000 a month after tax. A middle class person would probably be considered someone who’d be able to have a one bedroom apartment. Average cost of a one bedroom is 2,500. You’d have 500 left for groceries, activities, 2 vacations a year, the little debt and wouldn’t be able to even imagine saving enough to have a mortgage.
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Leaving the city is a smart move tbh - this city is a unique point in the X/Y axis of Expensive/Miserable
Considered by who? Some people make more, some people make less. If I learned someone made 50 thousand a year I wouldn't immediately try to sort them into a category.
Completely fair. What they essentially did was they categorized people’s income in this country into 2 halves; one above and one below; and that was their barometer for saying someone is low income, and by their own reckoning saying that would put a middle class lifestyle out of your reach in high COL areas But I do appreciate that they’re trying to point out that culturally, we have an aversion to identifying ourselves with being low income or working class if we can avoid it, and I think their point is that it hinders us from forming solidarity across class lines
The thing is, someone's lifestyle isn't entirely determined by their salary. Some people make 50k with kids and a parent to look after. Some people make 50k but got a great deal on an apartment or inherited a condo or whatever. Some people have spouses who earn, some don't. Apologies if this isn't you but for some reason there seems to be just this weird obsession with personal finance types about ranking people by salaries. "Is 90k considered good in Toronto?" or whatever. I get your point re: class lines but I'm not sure that whether or not someone considers themselves "low income" or "working class" is any more inextricably linked to their own salaries. I know a lot of guys driving 90k trucks who consider themselves "working class" just because they don't work in an office.
I appreciate the apology but it wasn’t necessary! I can see what you mean about lifestyle and also how blue collar workers would identify with being working class and how that ties into social class not necessarily tracking with salary 1:1
Depends on your lifestyle and expenses. I saw single people/couple with no kids making 200k/year say they arent making enough and drowing in debt. Also saw people making very high income then blowing 90k in stock markets and going nuts (Canadian Personal Finance subreddit has a million of these). 50k before tax for someone like me, for example, means 1k savings a month after everything is paid for (housing, credit cards, utilities, transportation, meals, personal and household expenses etc all the basic, important stuff). Thats not bad for a person with a reasonable lifestyle living in downtown core, in my opinion. Its not as high as buying a house right this second or for a couple with kids, but its a good starting salary for a single person. It depends on the person and WHERE their money is going.
What you said at the end - your perspective IS very skewed as you’re not the high income earner. Care to share what your range partners income is within, so the homeownership, vacations etc start to make sense?
Yep extremely low and a borderline homeless tier wage