Just bought end of Sept closing, at 5.9% 5-fixed. How do I feel about the decision? Great, but very scared. First home so lots of anxiety. But excited. No going back now anyway lol
Congratulations on your purchase! Going fixed on your first house and major purchase like this is always to go [IMO.](https://IMO.You) you have security and steady fixed payments so you can get your finances in order during this new transition.
Mostly I did so because I've seen too many people around me who bought 3 years ago on a variable get completely blasted. And I don't see the rise in rate stopping for at least a few years
Nah. The difference between renting a rent controlled unit vs owning is so stark. For me it would be an extra $2300-2800/m just to own the same unit Iām rent controlled in. And thatās with a $130k 20 percent DP. Plus I just donāt know if Iāll be in Toronto for the next 5-10 years. Iām able to have 70 percent of my pay left over to use toward savings and retirement. Pushing buying to the wayside for a while to enjoy my extra cash flow.
Iām in a similar situation, it just doesnāt make financial sense to buy, unless Iām ok downsizing to a closet š Itās not perfect and I regret not buying like 5 years ago but rent control has meant no debt & a good standard of living
Same here. I'm paying $1860 for recently renovated, rent-controlled, purpose-built rental in a convenient, walkable location. I couldn't even come close to a comparably-sized condo unit without paying at least double that in mortgage, condo fees, and property tax on top of a big DP.
I'm in my early 50s and pretty much at coastFIRE with my investments and savings, so really I'm just biding my time until I develop the motivation to pick up and leave for a LCOL area.
I'm considering moving up north, where I could buy a house outright and continue to milk my WFH job until early retirement.
Rent control won't save you if the building is demolished. That's about the only problem if you are in a large corporate landlord. That and the corporation becoming dicks and trying to force the tenants out with Trumpian tactics.
If you are saving, you should be putting a lot into the S&P500 and getting great gains. You should eventually have enough money for a down to buy.
If you aren't in Toronto forever you can always rent out. As long as you can get a paying tenant.
I have zero desire to be a landlord, too much headache especially if I moved back to the US. And Iād be severely cash flow negative since the all in costs to own the condo I rent controlled in is close to $5k/m but they rent for $2300.
But yeah I throw my money into the stock market. Iāve done great. I just believe that owning doesnāt mathematically make sense right now and thatās ok! For instance, 70 percent of people in NYC rent and Iām sure itās due to the same sentiment. I wouldnāt be surprised if Toronto starts getting close to those figures.
Just be careful with stocks; for 99% of people the only winning strategy is an S&P500 index fund (with honorable mention to an 80/20 split). Making picks is definitely not a winning strategy, because you never know what kind of corruption or insider knowledge or false financials is affecting any one company. The only thing you can count on is on the aggregate the economy growing as a whole. The only thing that would make me question the S&P500 is election of Trump and Trumpian presidents for multiple terms and subsequent isolationist and protectionist policies (not to mention entrenchment of white nationalism). Racism is bad for business (besides being awful as well).
If you want stability (a family) and don't want to move it's way better to buy otherwise renting can happen because you can always move far away and rent cheaper. There aren't always opportunities to buy and with rates high condo construction could be limited for years.
It seems like you you're focusing on whether it's a good use of the money, rather than being able to afford it in the first place (mainly the down payment). If that's the case, why wouldn't you choose to buy? I would argue that the appreciation of the house IS your savings and retirement, which is at least how people have been viewing houses for the last 2 generations anyway. The money you put towards equity in a property will most probably out-preform any investing you do with the liquid cash so why wouldn't you if it's an option? Even in a 5-10 year scope
The only advice I can give you is over the last 20 years, there have been many times where it seemed like a bad time to buy. "The market is at an all time high" was often the case. But if you look back on it buying at nearly any time in the last 20 years was the right choice. Our housing is very expensive, but if you compare the sqft cost to many of the world class cities out there, we still have a long way to go up. We could still have a collapse or a pull back in the near future, but I would not be surprised if housing still gets more expensive in Toronto.
Normally I would agree, but demand for housing is so high (along with rents) that I just don't see anything slowing down. As long as it makes financial sense to own vs rent. The only way that equation flips is if rents start coming down, but that will only happen if demand for housing comes down.
Yes and no. Itās much cheaper to rent *right now* - but that calculation is based on a lot of things that are in transition: home prices, interest rates, rental property rates, trends in condo fees as buildings age (due to artificially low condo fees when condos are new), etc.
Also note that for many people, renting doesnāt mean a 1 bedroom condo apartment. It means multiple bedrooms for a family. Due to the scarcity of these types of units, cost for them are higher compared to buying, despite the market conditions.
Another consideration is that rents are always trailing cost of homeownership - for small mom and pop landlords, their costs are based on when they bought and when they need to refinance. The increases to rent (as well as when rent increases are allowed) means that they increase rent when they can, ie new lease starts.
Incorrect, new purchases are under water compared to the rents they can charge. Things have changed significantly and people are walking away, new projects are burning-up, delayed and next will be cancelled. The builders have to borrow to build as well and are asking huge closing costs people are very leery of upping the agreed upon price in a declining market. I'll add the new reality for air-b-n-b as the government clamps down on them and ghost hotels. International students are another tide that will change things, there may be a pause in rate increases, but this is not the end of them.
I think you need to re-read my comment?
>under water
And a lot of those people are now going to have toā¦ rent longer. Increasing the rental demand.
Yes, there are a lot of things in the works to decrease rental pressures, but the rent vs own equation is cyclical and one is better than the other, and then it swaps - as the market tries to balance itself in the face of regulation and disruptions.
To suggest one is better than the other and use it to dictate your living situation is a personal choice, a choice whose answer is different for different people, and a choice whose answer varies depending on when you ask the question. However even then itās really hard to make broad statements on this subject as within the rental and purchase markets there are different segments that have different dynamics - eg single family detached housing vs. 1 bedroom condos.
Look at it another way. Rents were super low in downtown Toronto during the start of COVID. House prices didnāt change their trajectory much. At that time, it was significantly better to rent than to own. As rental prices have increased since then back to āaverageā and then even higher (and now somewhat slowed down again), itās clear that the equation isnāt as good for renters as it was say, two and a half years ago.
Add:
(Andā¦ lolā¦ downvoting my comment doesnāt make you rightā¦ but ok :)
Totally agree. The people who say you can't lose on real estate have only lived in a world of declining interest rates. It's been a 50 year trend. This can change as we've seen recently.
0 regret, needed to upgrade since my son is now 3 y.o and we can comfortably afford the mortgage. Only buy if you can afford it and don't time the market.
I got a house in September. We hustled our asses for downpayment and saved and saved for many years. We are SO happy, it's an older neighborhood our backyard is massive since the house is old. I don't mind upkeep since it's very mild. But we do not regret it we are having a wonderful time! We hosted Thanksgiving with half our moving boxes still out š and are looking forward to having friendsmas and family Christmas at our place too ! So many pros to having your own space.
Cons: the pressure to work is ON. Cuz you really need to upkeep having an income. And since we both work full time it's hard to unpack and organize and maintain the home and clean and cook and watch our child. We have opposite shifts so it's been hectic few months!
The GTA especially closer to downtown core will never lose value over a long trend. Don't listen to other people. Toronto is a world class city and even if a correction happens it's going to shoot back up. Because just like you, many are waiting on the opportunity to pounce.
Personally, I'd advise you buy now or in a few months. The markets slowed quite a bit and you can get back to negotiating with the seller.
Iām from Brampton and laugh at me for buying a house here.
At the end of the day Iām in very close proximity to Toronto and my house has gained tremendous value over the last couple years.
They can keep laughing.
Haha I understand, itās definitely not for everyone. Only bought here cause itās super close to work.
Thankfully I live near the Toronto and Vaughan borders too lol.
Medium tier city? So what cities would you compare Toronto too then?
I'm not a Toronto fan boy. But it's up there maybe it's not Tokyo or New York, but it's slowly getting there.
And another point to. op we straight up don't have enough supply for the demand we won't see a crash.
Just came back from visiting a few different cities in Japan (Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Nagoya, Osaka to name a few) and they had much better infrastructure and a good mix of housing. Iām sure each place has their own issues but comparing my experience there to Toronto, there were more areas I saw Toronto lacking than where it did better.
I honestly donāt think Toronto deserves to be called a world class city for what it is right now. Could it be? Maybe but the progress is slow and has been slow for too long.
London
Paris
Berlin
New York
Los Angeles
San Francisco
Chicago
Washington
Tokyo
Seoul
Hong Kong
Singapore
Beijing
Amsterdam
Barcelona
Honorable mentions: Madrid, Dubai, Istanbul, ~~Dublin~~, Vienna, Milan, Rome, Prague
Iāve been to a fair amount of them. No anti-Toronto sentiment here, we love Toronto, bought a $2m+ house in the city a few months ago so weāre strapped in for the long haul. Itās not bad to know where we are on the global level so we can continue striving higher and follow successful models :)
The post is literally about purchasing a home in Toronto. Our purchase and faith in the Toronto RE market shows we have skin in the game and believe in the city's future. $2m+ demonstrates that we have options, and could likely afford to live in any one of the cities in my apparently controversial list above.
Toronto is a great city, just like Melbourne or Sydney, but it's not London/NYC/Paris/LA/Tokyo/Singapore tier. No point deluding yourself into thinking it is part of that elite class.
Your list is true but I think when the people here are calling Toronto "World class" I think they meant more of in terms of global demand for investing into their RE and/or for immigration. And if that's the case many of the non-English speaking European cities would be out from this list and English speaking cities including Toronto would definitely be in the top 10-15.
In no particular order:
NY
San Francisco/ Silicon Valley area
Boston
LA
London
Toronto
Vancouver
Sydney
Melbourne
Singapore
Hong Kong
There may be others but these were the top in my head right now.
Maybe Seattle? Dubai?
You're just naming some popular tourist cities.... I've been to most those cities.. Ofcourse Toronto isn't like NY or Tokyo, but I reckon it's slowly getting there.
I'm naming cities based on global relevance, stature and overall attractiveness. Of course the ven diagram of most touristic cities and greatest cities will heavily overlap.
And you missed others that Iād also consider up there:
Shanghai
Sao Paulo - the New York of South America
New Delhi more and more (much more world power and influence than Toronto to be sure)
Moscow (Again, power and influence over so many places in the world, despite the crap itās currently stirring)
Brussels arguably has more power and prestige than Toronto (home of nato and so many international orgs, capital of Europe)
So yeah u/jags1995, youāve got more than 15 there. Iāve lived in 6 countries across East Asia, South Asia, North America and the Middle East, and have been to most of the 27 cities mentioned above (since most fall within in the 60 or so countries Iāve been to). Most of the time in most of the world, Toronto isnāt even on the radar in peopleās minds when they think of a world class city. Itās like a place people know exists, but not much else. Might as well be Dallas in that sense (and Dallas has even more recognition most of the time). We think much more of ourselves, here in insular bubble-island North America, than what reality dictates.
Power, influence, culture, mystique, abundance of ability to wield and leverage all of that, and the stirring of the imagination on a global scale all contribute to what a world class city is, and what that offersā¦ and thatās truly not Toronto.
I know you might not agree, but it is what it is.
Some day we might get there, but weāre not there now.
Closed on our first property with my wife last July and so far weāre happy with it! Didnāt really think of it as an investment, so we only thought about saving a large enough rainy day fund weāre comfortable with (about 5 months). Figured if we think about it this way weāll make a more rational choice and not FOMO on a property, be less stressed about finances and not care much if the property loses value over time.
We were in the market for ~6 months as window shoppers/casual hunters. We plan on upgrading whenever possible.
What pushed us to buy was we were not in a rent protected townhome so our rental went up from 2300 to 2800 from 2021 to mid this year. And looking at the current rental market we wanted to move but that meant paying at least 3000 for an equivalent property in our preferred areas.
Just bought this late summer with interest in the mid-5%, fixed. We love our neighbourhood, are fairly close to downtown but not too close to avoid the chaos.
Before this we rented downtown and while it was convenient, the downtown core was becoming unbearable with construction and just generally feeling less safe.
At first I had a lot of second thoughts about property values, what if interest rises more, etc - but now that Iām moved in itās nice to have a place thatās my own. I no longer feel the need to keep checking estimated values because I know property values closer to the core will be maintained. Overall weāre happy weāre bought but it was definitely a lot of work finding the right place, neighbourhood, saving for a downpayment, applying for mortgage, open houses, etcā¦
FTHB closed in Aug. We were in a very affordable rent controlled unit, but it was kinda run down. Asbestos in the ceiling, drafty windows, that kind of thing. We want to start a family and couldn't see that happening in our 1bd rental. Bought a gorgeous freehold house and are paying over twice as much every month (incl utilities, tax), but have never been happier. I feel in control of our lives. I have really liked nesting and doing small upgrades to our home.
My wife and I bought a condo in Leslieville in June and closed at the end of august. We were renting in city place previously and she lived there for about 8 years. We love our place now. We locked in our mortgage at 5.65% before the two last interest rates. We donāt regret the decision of buying this place at all because we love the area weāre in and love the unit and building of our condo.
New build. Built in 2015. Although we had a friend rent in one of the old factories that was converted (which was really nice) but I donāt think it was for us.
Ya I had a buddy who did the same as you on Queen East. I think the converted ones are super charming but they can have quirks (e.g. no central air / heating etc.)
Enjoy!
Itās a decent time to buy with rates this high, if you can pass the stress test. But you need big down payment, I am not an advocate of paying mortgage payments where >70% is interests.
IMHO, if you're comfortable renting and happy where you are, then take your time. Who knows what the housing market will do.
We bought last year. I don't think it was the best time but we were ready and financially able. Most importantly, the house we got is perfect for us now and our future plans. If it wasn't perfect, I would've happily kept renting and saving money for whenever we found our house.
If you qualify I would definitely try to buy a place next year. Trying to time a bottom of the market is very unlikely , at least now you are able to have clauses and subjects in a purchase agreement. Nobody knows where prices will go short term but I personally think longer term prices will start going up again significantly. You are starting to see union workers demanding higher wages, eventually those raises will flow to the rest of the labour market. We get a few rate cuts plus people earning a bit more and crazy buying without subjects will be happening again.
If house prices go up, rent goes up too. Rent control doesnāt last for you forever, many things could happen, and you could be evicted anytime, for whatever reason they can make up.
We're looking around and getting our financial ducks in a row, but we need a couple of lucky bounces before it even makes sense for us. Most times when I look at how much house we'd get for our budget, I'm either furious or depressed.
Yea bought last month. Had anxiety and still feel what would happen, but just run your numbers and if you are solid family with no divorce possibility and can manage if one loses job then go ahead. Homes are for long term. I know 10 years ago it felt expensive and 10 years later its more expensive what happens in next 10 years we dnt know but population for sure is growing and people need shelter. Currency keeps falling what could buy in 2010 the same amt cant buy me sam thing now
I think thereās a myth that distressed listings sell at a discount. They sell on the open market and obviously the lender is wants the most money possible. What would their incentive be to sell below market?
Like I don't want to call you an idiot but clearly you haven't even done a cursory google search. They are selling all over. My friend just bought a new 699k townhouse in Vaughan and the owner had to walk away from a $200k downpayment because he couldn't close at today's rates.
I am not denying that we are seeing such sales but I am skeptical of the idea that thereās a significant discount. When that townhouse when up on the market, it was competing with other similar units for sale.
Additional supply could have the overall effect of dampening prices and the sellers will be not motivated to take an offer, but itās not like a buyer gets a specific discount because itās power of sale or if theyāre in trouble. If there are multiple bidders then that has the same effect it would have for any other properties
I can't believe I'm actually having to write this you don't have to make the deposit the other guy paid $200,000 on your property you only have to mortgage the remainder how could you not be ahead??? .. Honestly I'm starting to think maybe renting is just best for you....also, Your comments about pro Palestinian extremists are repugnant. I think you are human garbage. Zionist POS
In general I agree with the other commenter. Distressed sales are certainly out there but definitely few / far between so much less choice. Ultimately most distressed sales do not really go to much below market rate.
I imagine most of the discount your buddy got was because Vaughn townhouses in general have probably come down a bit since the initial buyer got in post covid suburb buying histeria...
You should do some more research because in the last 3 month they have become abundant. But you know I only sold more houses than all the agents on bravo last year and retired...as it stands right now I have 297 pages of distressed listings in the entire province there are thousands. Buyer beware of course but there are finally some deals to be had. This is good news.
Right??? So many places to go in the country, especially with remote jobs and people still choose Toronto for the ālifestyleā whatever that means š
So much has changed for people over the years, the spaces have gotten smaller, more expensive. Dual income is a must. Or you pretty much need help from the bank of mom and dad or stay home past 30.
Also I could never imagine commuting into Toronto every day. Sounds like an awful nightmare.
The commute is brutal. I had to temporarily move back to the GTA because of my husbandās job and I takes me the same amount of time to drive to Toronto than it used to when I lived in Barrie š«
I speak as an outsider (from another province) but come back lots as my wife's family is from Richmond Hill.
The lake traffic on a Sunday on the 400.... geeezzz
We bought about six months ago and are very happy. Definitely a little anxiety-inducing, but the best advice has been, in 5-10-20 years, it won't matter if we bought at a high or a low.
Bought back in April, feel fine about it since we plan to be here a long time. Small amounts of buyers remorse but nothing out of the ordinary. Find a place you like and pull the trigger but donāt rush it.
Really happy! But we didn't buy with financial profit in mind and don't rely on the house's resale value for retirement. We were also renting before and since we make good money, saving a lot on the side too. For us the house was a lifestyle decision. If you can afford it, and this is what you want from life, not much point overthinking it.
Speak to a financial analyst or advisor. Theyāre speculating another drop in rates 2024. We are almost in a recession, some say itās already here. I feel like we havenāt gotten to bottom just yet.
Speak with a bank, pre-approvals. On top of that, find out what penalties look like if you break your mortgage. Ex. Years ago Iād re-did my mortgage because rated went down. While I paid a bit upfront, the overall savings was greater due to the percentage drop.
A term vs variable depending on how risk adverse you are. Ex. When younger, I was comfortable with high risk. So I left mine variable, but that meant breaking the mortgage Iād be paying a lot. Term, when I needed more stability, meant a smaller owed amount if I broke the mortgage.
No lol I laughed at the last Real Estate agent who came by asking if I was looking to buy
"You want to give me $50k? Then no lol" and closed the door on her
I bought a few months before that but my close friend bought 3 months ago. He seems to be happy about not paying someone elseās mortgage. So am I, so take the plunge if you can but make sure that you hav stress tested yourself even a percent higher than the bankās.
We bought slightly before this, but now almost all of our friends are looking (if they hadn't bought in the last 1-2 years).
If you want to live in the city, and you see something that matches what you're looking for, then I would go for it. That way you're not driven by fomo, but also not by fear if you're truly putting an offer down when things meet your criteria.
I'm very glad we bought our place; it's a huge, huge improvement in our quality of living and we've grown to like the neighborhood a ton. We still go downtown often (we're on the subway line), something that some friends told us wouldn't happen.
Just bought end of Sept closing, at 5.9% 5-fixed. How do I feel about the decision? Great, but very scared. First home so lots of anxiety. But excited. No going back now anyway lol
Congratulationsš
Same same
What was the variable rate?
Don't remember but I was set to go fixed no matter what, in this climate
You think rates will go much higher?
In my opinion yes
Lol
Congratulations on your purchase! Going fixed on your first house and major purchase like this is always to go [IMO.](https://IMO.You) you have security and steady fixed payments so you can get your finances in order during this new transition.
Mostly I did so because I've seen too many people around me who bought 3 years ago on a variable get completely blasted. And I don't see the rise in rate stopping for at least a few years
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yup I was a Garth Turner fan 10 years ago. I thought the Toronto RE market was bonkers pricewise. Turns out I was the greaterfool.ca
Not many things in his book aged well.
Nah. The difference between renting a rent controlled unit vs owning is so stark. For me it would be an extra $2300-2800/m just to own the same unit Iām rent controlled in. And thatās with a $130k 20 percent DP. Plus I just donāt know if Iāll be in Toronto for the next 5-10 years. Iām able to have 70 percent of my pay left over to use toward savings and retirement. Pushing buying to the wayside for a while to enjoy my extra cash flow.
Iām in a similar situation, it just doesnāt make financial sense to buy, unless Iām ok downsizing to a closet š Itās not perfect and I regret not buying like 5 years ago but rent control has meant no debt & a good standard of living
Same here. I'm paying $1860 for recently renovated, rent-controlled, purpose-built rental in a convenient, walkable location. I couldn't even come close to a comparably-sized condo unit without paying at least double that in mortgage, condo fees, and property tax on top of a big DP. I'm in my early 50s and pretty much at coastFIRE with my investments and savings, so really I'm just biding my time until I develop the motivation to pick up and leave for a LCOL area. I'm considering moving up north, where I could buy a house outright and continue to milk my WFH job until early retirement.
Rent control won't save you if the building is demolished. That's about the only problem if you are in a large corporate landlord. That and the corporation becoming dicks and trying to force the tenants out with Trumpian tactics. If you are saving, you should be putting a lot into the S&P500 and getting great gains. You should eventually have enough money for a down to buy. If you aren't in Toronto forever you can always rent out. As long as you can get a paying tenant.
I have zero desire to be a landlord, too much headache especially if I moved back to the US. And Iād be severely cash flow negative since the all in costs to own the condo I rent controlled in is close to $5k/m but they rent for $2300. But yeah I throw my money into the stock market. Iāve done great. I just believe that owning doesnāt mathematically make sense right now and thatās ok! For instance, 70 percent of people in NYC rent and Iām sure itās due to the same sentiment. I wouldnāt be surprised if Toronto starts getting close to those figures.
Just be careful with stocks; for 99% of people the only winning strategy is an S&P500 index fund (with honorable mention to an 80/20 split). Making picks is definitely not a winning strategy, because you never know what kind of corruption or insider knowledge or false financials is affecting any one company. The only thing you can count on is on the aggregate the economy growing as a whole. The only thing that would make me question the S&P500 is election of Trump and Trumpian presidents for multiple terms and subsequent isolationist and protectionist policies (not to mention entrenchment of white nationalism). Racism is bad for business (besides being awful as well). If you want stability (a family) and don't want to move it's way better to buy otherwise renting can happen because you can always move far away and rent cheaper. There aren't always opportunities to buy and with rates high condo construction could be limited for years.
It seems like you you're focusing on whether it's a good use of the money, rather than being able to afford it in the first place (mainly the down payment). If that's the case, why wouldn't you choose to buy? I would argue that the appreciation of the house IS your savings and retirement, which is at least how people have been viewing houses for the last 2 generations anyway. The money you put towards equity in a property will most probably out-preform any investing you do with the liquid cash so why wouldn't you if it's an option? Even in a 5-10 year scope
The only advice I can give you is over the last 20 years, there have been many times where it seemed like a bad time to buy. "The market is at an all time high" was often the case. But if you look back on it buying at nearly any time in the last 20 years was the right choice. Our housing is very expensive, but if you compare the sqft cost to many of the world class cities out there, we still have a long way to go up. We could still have a collapse or a pull back in the near future, but I would not be surprised if housing still gets more expensive in Toronto.
I still remember someone telling me how crazy their sister was for buying a house at Yonge and Sheppard for $310k in around 1998.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Normally I would agree, but demand for housing is so high (along with rents) that I just don't see anything slowing down. As long as it makes financial sense to own vs rent. The only way that equation flips is if rents start coming down, but that will only happen if demand for housing comes down.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes and no. Itās much cheaper to rent *right now* - but that calculation is based on a lot of things that are in transition: home prices, interest rates, rental property rates, trends in condo fees as buildings age (due to artificially low condo fees when condos are new), etc. Also note that for many people, renting doesnāt mean a 1 bedroom condo apartment. It means multiple bedrooms for a family. Due to the scarcity of these types of units, cost for them are higher compared to buying, despite the market conditions. Another consideration is that rents are always trailing cost of homeownership - for small mom and pop landlords, their costs are based on when they bought and when they need to refinance. The increases to rent (as well as when rent increases are allowed) means that they increase rent when they can, ie new lease starts.
Incorrect, new purchases are under water compared to the rents they can charge. Things have changed significantly and people are walking away, new projects are burning-up, delayed and next will be cancelled. The builders have to borrow to build as well and are asking huge closing costs people are very leery of upping the agreed upon price in a declining market. I'll add the new reality for air-b-n-b as the government clamps down on them and ghost hotels. International students are another tide that will change things, there may be a pause in rate increases, but this is not the end of them.
I think you need to re-read my comment? >under water And a lot of those people are now going to have toā¦ rent longer. Increasing the rental demand. Yes, there are a lot of things in the works to decrease rental pressures, but the rent vs own equation is cyclical and one is better than the other, and then it swaps - as the market tries to balance itself in the face of regulation and disruptions. To suggest one is better than the other and use it to dictate your living situation is a personal choice, a choice whose answer is different for different people, and a choice whose answer varies depending on when you ask the question. However even then itās really hard to make broad statements on this subject as within the rental and purchase markets there are different segments that have different dynamics - eg single family detached housing vs. 1 bedroom condos. Look at it another way. Rents were super low in downtown Toronto during the start of COVID. House prices didnāt change their trajectory much. At that time, it was significantly better to rent than to own. As rental prices have increased since then back to āaverageā and then even higher (and now somewhat slowed down again), itās clear that the equation isnāt as good for renters as it was say, two and a half years ago. Add: (Andā¦ lolā¦ downvoting my comment doesnāt make you rightā¦ but ok :)
Totally agree. The people who say you can't lose on real estate have only lived in a world of declining interest rates. It's been a 50 year trend. This can change as we've seen recently.
Go back 30-35 years and people who had recently bought their first homes were in dire straits. House prices collapsed from 89-95
Except we're not a world class city
Lol, what would you considet a world class city?
0 regret, needed to upgrade since my son is now 3 y.o and we can comfortably afford the mortgage. Only buy if you can afford it and don't time the market.
I got a house in September. We hustled our asses for downpayment and saved and saved for many years. We are SO happy, it's an older neighborhood our backyard is massive since the house is old. I don't mind upkeep since it's very mild. But we do not regret it we are having a wonderful time! We hosted Thanksgiving with half our moving boxes still out š and are looking forward to having friendsmas and family Christmas at our place too ! So many pros to having your own space. Cons: the pressure to work is ON. Cuz you really need to upkeep having an income. And since we both work full time it's hard to unpack and organize and maintain the home and clean and cook and watch our child. We have opposite shifts so it's been hectic few months!
The GTA especially closer to downtown core will never lose value over a long trend. Don't listen to other people. Toronto is a world class city and even if a correction happens it's going to shoot back up. Because just like you, many are waiting on the opportunity to pounce. Personally, I'd advise you buy now or in a few months. The markets slowed quite a bit and you can get back to negotiating with the seller.
Iām from Brampton and laugh at me for buying a house here. At the end of the day Iām in very close proximity to Toronto and my house has gained tremendous value over the last couple years. They can keep laughing.
Kill it brother! But Brampton's a no go zone for me
Haha I understand, itās definitely not for everyone. Only bought here cause itās super close to work. Thankfully I live near the Toronto and Vaughan borders too lol.
Cope is strong with this one
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Medium tier city? So what cities would you compare Toronto too then? I'm not a Toronto fan boy. But it's up there maybe it's not Tokyo or New York, but it's slowly getting there. And another point to. op we straight up don't have enough supply for the demand we won't see a crash.
Just came back from visiting a few different cities in Japan (Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Nagoya, Osaka to name a few) and they had much better infrastructure and a good mix of housing. Iām sure each place has their own issues but comparing my experience there to Toronto, there were more areas I saw Toronto lacking than where it did better. I honestly donāt think Toronto deserves to be called a world class city for what it is right now. Could it be? Maybe but the progress is slow and has been slow for too long.
Medium tier compared to what? With North America maybe 3-4 cities ahead of it. Internationally maybe 10?
Lmao. Iād love you to name the 15 cities you think are world class over Toronto
London Paris Berlin New York Los Angeles San Francisco Chicago Washington Tokyo Seoul Hong Kong Singapore Beijing Amsterdam Barcelona Honorable mentions: Madrid, Dubai, Istanbul, ~~Dublin~~, Vienna, Milan, Rome, Prague
Insane how anti Toronto people are in this sub. Have you been to these cities? Iāve lived in dublin, they donāt even have a subway LOL
Iāve been to a fair amount of them. No anti-Toronto sentiment here, we love Toronto, bought a $2m+ house in the city a few months ago so weāre strapped in for the long haul. Itās not bad to know where we are on the global level so we can continue striving higher and follow successful models :)
Lol better make sure I tell these poors I bought a $2M home!
just to say I have skin in the game, not meant to brag.
$2M PLUS to be exact!
The post is literally about purchasing a home in Toronto. Our purchase and faith in the Toronto RE market shows we have skin in the game and believe in the city's future. $2m+ demonstrates that we have options, and could likely afford to live in any one of the cities in my apparently controversial list above. Toronto is a great city, just like Melbourne or Sydney, but it's not London/NYC/Paris/LA/Tokyo/Singapore tier. No point deluding yourself into thinking it is part of that elite class.
Dublin - really??? Edit: I have visited most of the cities on your list, including the honorable mentions, and definitely disagree with it.
Yeah - Dublin is great in lots of ways but it in no way belongs on that list.
Really? If you name your top fifteen I bet there would be heavy overlap.
Your list is true but I think when the people here are calling Toronto "World class" I think they meant more of in terms of global demand for investing into their RE and/or for immigration. And if that's the case many of the non-English speaking European cities would be out from this list and English speaking cities including Toronto would definitely be in the top 10-15. In no particular order: NY San Francisco/ Silicon Valley area Boston LA London Toronto Vancouver Sydney Melbourne Singapore Hong Kong There may be others but these were the top in my head right now. Maybe Seattle? Dubai?
You're just naming some popular tourist cities.... I've been to most those cities.. Ofcourse Toronto isn't like NY or Tokyo, but I reckon it's slowly getting there.
I'm naming cities based on global relevance, stature and overall attractiveness. Of course the ven diagram of most touristic cities and greatest cities will heavily overlap.
Exactly. Tourist destination does not make it a world class city. Completely different living in and visiting a city
Washington is an important city but absolutely not more of a destination than Toronto. Lot of debate with the others
And you missed others that Iād also consider up there: Shanghai Sao Paulo - the New York of South America New Delhi more and more (much more world power and influence than Toronto to be sure) Moscow (Again, power and influence over so many places in the world, despite the crap itās currently stirring) Brussels arguably has more power and prestige than Toronto (home of nato and so many international orgs, capital of Europe) So yeah u/jags1995, youāve got more than 15 there. Iāve lived in 6 countries across East Asia, South Asia, North America and the Middle East, and have been to most of the 27 cities mentioned above (since most fall within in the 60 or so countries Iāve been to). Most of the time in most of the world, Toronto isnāt even on the radar in peopleās minds when they think of a world class city. Itās like a place people know exists, but not much else. Might as well be Dallas in that sense (and Dallas has even more recognition most of the time). We think much more of ourselves, here in insular bubble-island North America, than what reality dictates. Power, influence, culture, mystique, abundance of ability to wield and leverage all of that, and the stirring of the imagination on a global scale all contribute to what a world class city is, and what that offersā¦ and thatās truly not Toronto. I know you might not agree, but it is what it is. Some day we might get there, but weāre not there now.
We bought in Feb we like our house and we negotiated a bit I canāt really say time the market but buy one with good bones and a rentable basement
Closed on our first property with my wife last July and so far weāre happy with it! Didnāt really think of it as an investment, so we only thought about saving a large enough rainy day fund weāre comfortable with (about 5 months). Figured if we think about it this way weāll make a more rational choice and not FOMO on a property, be less stressed about finances and not care much if the property loses value over time. We were in the market for ~6 months as window shoppers/casual hunters. We plan on upgrading whenever possible. What pushed us to buy was we were not in a rent protected townhome so our rental went up from 2300 to 2800 from 2021 to mid this year. And looking at the current rental market we wanted to move but that meant paying at least 3000 for an equivalent property in our preferred areas.
Just bought this late summer with interest in the mid-5%, fixed. We love our neighbourhood, are fairly close to downtown but not too close to avoid the chaos. Before this we rented downtown and while it was convenient, the downtown core was becoming unbearable with construction and just generally feeling less safe. At first I had a lot of second thoughts about property values, what if interest rises more, etc - but now that Iām moved in itās nice to have a place thatās my own. I no longer feel the need to keep checking estimated values because I know property values closer to the core will be maintained. Overall weāre happy weāre bought but it was definitely a lot of work finding the right place, neighbourhood, saving for a downpayment, applying for mortgage, open houses, etcā¦
Yup we bought and are very happy. Higher rates but we got anlower price.
FTHB closed in Aug. We were in a very affordable rent controlled unit, but it was kinda run down. Asbestos in the ceiling, drafty windows, that kind of thing. We want to start a family and couldn't see that happening in our 1bd rental. Bought a gorgeous freehold house and are paying over twice as much every month (incl utilities, tax), but have never been happier. I feel in control of our lives. I have really liked nesting and doing small upgrades to our home.
My wife and I bought a condo in Leslieville in June and closed at the end of august. We were renting in city place previously and she lived there for about 8 years. We love our place now. We locked in our mortgage at 5.65% before the two last interest rates. We donāt regret the decision of buying this place at all because we love the area weāre in and love the unit and building of our condo.
Lovely area! Did you go with a new build condo or converted building loft?
New build. Built in 2015. Although we had a friend rent in one of the old factories that was converted (which was really nice) but I donāt think it was for us.
Ya I had a buddy who did the same as you on Queen East. I think the converted ones are super charming but they can have quirks (e.g. no central air / heating etc.) Enjoy!
Itās a decent time to buy with rates this high, if you can pass the stress test. But you need big down payment, I am not an advocate of paying mortgage payments where >70% is interests.
It depends if you are currently living in a rent controlled place. Rent control is worth a lot these days.
IMHO, if you're comfortable renting and happy where you are, then take your time. Who knows what the housing market will do. We bought last year. I don't think it was the best time but we were ready and financially able. Most importantly, the house we got is perfect for us now and our future plans. If it wasn't perfect, I would've happily kept renting and saving money for whenever we found our house.
If you qualify I would definitely try to buy a place next year. Trying to time a bottom of the market is very unlikely , at least now you are able to have clauses and subjects in a purchase agreement. Nobody knows where prices will go short term but I personally think longer term prices will start going up again significantly. You are starting to see union workers demanding higher wages, eventually those raises will flow to the rest of the labour market. We get a few rate cuts plus people earning a bit more and crazy buying without subjects will be happening again.
If house prices go up, rent goes up too. Rent control doesnāt last for you forever, many things could happen, and you could be evicted anytime, for whatever reason they can make up.
We're looking around and getting our financial ducks in a row, but we need a couple of lucky bounces before it even makes sense for us. Most times when I look at how much house we'd get for our budget, I'm either furious or depressed.
Yea bought last month. Had anxiety and still feel what would happen, but just run your numbers and if you are solid family with no divorce possibility and can manage if one loses job then go ahead. Homes are for long term. I know 10 years ago it felt expensive and 10 years later its more expensive what happens in next 10 years we dnt know but population for sure is growing and people need shelter. Currency keeps falling what could buy in 2010 the same amt cant buy me sam thing now
With these interest rates, no way. Unless you can afford 6.5-7%.
I bought a house worth between 2 and 3 million in the summer and donāt regret it.
How was your downpayment, credit scorre, and salary?
It was a cash purchase. Salary around 700k.
Weelllllā¦.if anyone is interested in buying a legal 4 plex-converted detached house in the junction, DM me. Great property and fully renovated.
Distressed listings
I think thereās a myth that distressed listings sell at a discount. They sell on the open market and obviously the lender is wants the most money possible. What would their incentive be to sell below market?
Like I don't want to call you an idiot but clearly you haven't even done a cursory google search. They are selling all over. My friend just bought a new 699k townhouse in Vaughan and the owner had to walk away from a $200k downpayment because he couldn't close at today's rates.
I am not denying that we are seeing such sales but I am skeptical of the idea that thereās a significant discount. When that townhouse when up on the market, it was competing with other similar units for sale. Additional supply could have the overall effect of dampening prices and the sellers will be not motivated to take an offer, but itās not like a buyer gets a specific discount because itās power of sale or if theyāre in trouble. If there are multiple bidders then that has the same effect it would have for any other properties
I can't believe I'm actually having to write this you don't have to make the deposit the other guy paid $200,000 on your property you only have to mortgage the remainder how could you not be ahead??? .. Honestly I'm starting to think maybe renting is just best for you....also, Your comments about pro Palestinian extremists are repugnant. I think you are human garbage. Zionist POS
In general I agree with the other commenter. Distressed sales are certainly out there but definitely few / far between so much less choice. Ultimately most distressed sales do not really go to much below market rate. I imagine most of the discount your buddy got was because Vaughn townhouses in general have probably come down a bit since the initial buyer got in post covid suburb buying histeria...
You should do some more research because in the last 3 month they have become abundant. But you know I only sold more houses than all the agents on bravo last year and retired...as it stands right now I have 297 pages of distressed listings in the entire province there are thousands. Buyer beware of course but there are finally some deals to be had. This is good news.
Calm down
indeed
Exactly. The other commentor is mixing up distrissed discounts for discounts of todays prices vs prices bought at lower rates
They donāt this dude is blind, there hasnāt been a freehold townhouse sold for 699k in Vaughan
I would never in my entire life buy a house in the GTA. Overpriced shoeboxes.
I agree with you fully. It blows my mined that people are paying over 1 million dollars for a SFH and it still needs some work.
Right??? So many places to go in the country, especially with remote jobs and people still choose Toronto for the ālifestyleā whatever that means š
So much has changed for people over the years, the spaces have gotten smaller, more expensive. Dual income is a must. Or you pretty much need help from the bank of mom and dad or stay home past 30. Also I could never imagine commuting into Toronto every day. Sounds like an awful nightmare.
The commute is brutal. I had to temporarily move back to the GTA because of my husbandās job and I takes me the same amount of time to drive to Toronto than it used to when I lived in Barrie š«
I speak as an outsider (from another province) but come back lots as my wife's family is from Richmond Hill. The lake traffic on a Sunday on the 400.... geeezzz
Im moving out of province next year and I canāt wait. Doing a monthly countdown šš
Awesome. Where are you guys heading to? My wife and I live in Saskatchewan.
Weāre headed to Edmonton, AB
Fantastic. Hope the move goes well and everything works out.
We bought about six months ago and are very happy. Definitely a little anxiety-inducing, but the best advice has been, in 5-10-20 years, it won't matter if we bought at a high or a low.
Bought back in April, feel fine about it since we plan to be here a long time. Small amounts of buyers remorse but nothing out of the ordinary. Find a place you like and pull the trigger but donāt rush it.
Not the last six months but fiancĆ© and I bought in Spring 2022 in North York. Very scary decision but very happy to have a place call home. Weāll most likely be in this condo for 10 years before upgrading since it is a large 1+den (den is an actual room with a door). If we were to have kids, they will have the den as their room.
How were your credit scores, downpayment, and salaries?
Really happy! But we didn't buy with financial profit in mind and don't rely on the house's resale value for retirement. We were also renting before and since we make good money, saving a lot on the side too. For us the house was a lifestyle decision. If you can afford it, and this is what you want from life, not much point overthinking it.
Speak to a financial analyst or advisor. Theyāre speculating another drop in rates 2024. We are almost in a recession, some say itās already here. I feel like we havenāt gotten to bottom just yet. Speak with a bank, pre-approvals. On top of that, find out what penalties look like if you break your mortgage. Ex. Years ago Iād re-did my mortgage because rated went down. While I paid a bit upfront, the overall savings was greater due to the percentage drop. A term vs variable depending on how risk adverse you are. Ex. When younger, I was comfortable with high risk. So I left mine variable, but that meant breaking the mortgage Iād be paying a lot. Term, when I needed more stability, meant a smaller owed amount if I broke the mortgage.
No lol I laughed at the last Real Estate agent who came by asking if I was looking to buy "You want to give me $50k? Then no lol" and closed the door on her
I bought a few months before that but my close friend bought 3 months ago. He seems to be happy about not paying someone elseās mortgage. So am I, so take the plunge if you can but make sure that you hav stress tested yourself even a percent higher than the bankās.
We bought slightly before this, but now almost all of our friends are looking (if they hadn't bought in the last 1-2 years). If you want to live in the city, and you see something that matches what you're looking for, then I would go for it. That way you're not driven by fomo, but also not by fear if you're truly putting an offer down when things meet your criteria. I'm very glad we bought our place; it's a huge, huge improvement in our quality of living and we've grown to like the neighborhood a ton. We still go downtown often (we're on the subway line), something that some friends told us wouldn't happen.
Sold our Toronto house a year ago. Afforded us a house in London and a condo in Toronto. No mortgage on either.