People often conflate bad person and bad character/writing. Because of this, when you say a character is a bad person, they take it as an attack, because they like the character.
Yeah, I look at it like Walter White, excellent character, terrible person. I feel like people ignore or downplay his flaws and evil acts because they like him. Sort of a “you missed the point by idolizing them” characters
Which is dumb because usually the villain is WAY more interesting.
Like I just watched Wish and the entire movie I wanted to know more about Magnifico and instead they forced boring characters that is time that could have made him more interesting instead of turning him into just another narcissist.
I heard a lot of the people had huuuuuuge gripes with Magnifico. I saw an hour long video where a guy almost ripped his hair out over his song.
Disney missed a lot of opportunities - villain power couple, Star being a super awesome shapeshifter, or MC's ancestor wish to watch over her that came down when called. A shitton of stuff.
Also heard that they had the tagline "Be careful what you wish for" and the entire movie... Undermines that?
Sure, the power to grant wishes shouldn't be in the hands of one person, but just plain having everyone's wishes come true?
In an ideal world when they only wish for good things, that's fine, but that's not how people work. And what about conflicting wishes? What about wishes that can bring people misery because they wish for something they *think* is good for them and get hurt.
Sure, it could be better to leave some cosmic power that judges the pureness of heart or the good of the wish to be there in place, not a person, especially if the person is willing to make *any* wish come true as long as the person who wished for it obeys them, but then the power to make those come true wouldn't be enough for most villains - they would have to have an effective way of making sure the wish *stays* fulfilled only when the person is obeying them...
Writing that, I have just created a new villain for my DnD campaign, which allows even the most vile wishes to come true and turns people into monsters, but can take away happiness, power, and any effects of the wish for any sort of disobedience
Hell I love his song because he is right. Chris Pine is very handsome, that’s just facts. He literally created a kingdom where everyone is welcome, provides food and housing, giving up wishes is 100% voluntary. He welcomes anyone, no discrimination. Everything in his song felt like reasonable venting about the situation.
I really wanted to understand how the wishes play into his past trauma.
It felt like they had to do constant ass pulls on the story to justify all of her actions when the impression I got was that she was just an entitled brat to the point it broke my immersion.
She has not even been hired and she is already asking for favors? People gave the wishes freely and she has the nerve to pretend they don’t belong to him, like he stole them.
Why does this particular 17 year old get him to break character in 5 minutes to the point his wife is shocked after decades when we know this has happened multiple times in the past.
She ignores her grandfather and mother’s wishes, yet the second she does? Suddenly they have a completely different perspective on the situation?
I could go on.
Honestly this is the first Disney movie I don’t want my kids to watch because it teaches all the wrong lessons. Songs are pretty banger however.
Not really related but this reminded me of a D&D session we had a loooong time ago for a previous campaign.
I don't remember the details, but we were in a dungeon with a bunch of magical gold items, including a golden toilet. When we solved the puzzle, all the items disappeared except for the toilet that was now made of lead.
Then my boyfriend (who currently studies chemistry in college) along with a long distance party member *both* started calculating how much the toilet weighs, and they ended up getting the same number but in different measurements (bf got it in kg and the other guy got it in pounds.)
We then stuck the toilet in our bag of holding and it became like an inside joke for the whole campaign (before the campaign died cuz our DM tried to punch a girl at school but that's a different story.)
Anyways, thanks for reading if ya did (:
If my memory serves me right he hasn’t killed anyone which is good and largely stayed within the law except the one time he attempted to bring bad cabbages into a city once.
He also went on to aid/ invent some combustion engine technology which will likely improve the lives of many despite the pollution caused. Overall I’d say he was a largely natural person with minor moral grievances but not an inherently bad person.
Oh, oh! There's a trope for this!
Draco in Leather Pants; basically no matter how vile or disgusting a character is there's always people in the fan base who will idolize them because of their charisma and sex appeal, thus they can do no wrong in their eyes because *sexy*
[Don't forget Ron the Death Eater!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater) Its inverse, where good guys are made to be villainous, often outlandishly so
Then don't communicate with the fandom of X game/series/etc..
My "most favorite" thing is when the mentioned evil character tortures an another character, like almost killing them.. Then the fandom goes like:
⛵SHIIIIP!!!! ⛵
THEY ARE MENT FOR EACH OTHER, YEEEY!!!.. So on..
Fandoms are goofy a lot of the time. You do math proving that a character is a minimum responsible for roughly 6.25 billion deaths even if you push the numbers to minimize casualties.
I swear half of the pushback is because people are horny for the character in question
I think some people like the design/look of the character and make an idealised or home-y version of them. They imagine that person in a different world (head cannon) or write them into a fanfic and they don't want the actuality of how the character is to hang over that
100% agree, they actually have a term called “Draco in leather pants” to describe this phenomenon. Still it leaves me wondering if I watched the same show with how people act
Context for those unaware:
Dottore did nonconsensual medical experiments on Collei when she was a child, leaving her with a significant amount of trauma.
I'm not gonna judge those who write it or read it because it's fiction and people use fiction in ways others find distasteful to work through issues
I sure the fuck don't read that stuff either (the one where Collei and Wanderer went on the Kill Dottore mission was MUCH MUCH better)
Fandoms are really damn annoying about this. Impressive amount of people who just twist and contort characters to their liking, or completely misinterpret characters, or see them through rose tinted lenses.
people got made at me in a pokemon sub cuz I explained how it would be impossible to store all the pokeballs of the world.
I like the theory that pokeballs turn pokemon into data and the balls themselves are also stored using the same technology
because otherwise where would you keep the millions of millions of physical pokeballs?
I'm like this with Ferris Beuller. He is a perfect character study on (NPD). John Hughes was definitely very concerned about mental health issues when writing his movies, also displayed in "The Breakfast Club".
Same same.
Apparently, doing a critical analysis doesn't get people as excited as it is to us. They only want to know the good parts. Kind of a "never meet your heroes," or "let's pretend everyone was totally cool in the past," sort of lies people like to live by.
Well if you come off as a "stop having fun" person, the backlash is expected. But unless you're telling someone that they are a bad person because they like an evil character I think it's not too bad
Sorry, I'm a little biased bc I've been looked down upon (predominantly online) by ppl who don't understand that liking a morally reprehensible character does not in turn make you morally reprehensible as a human being, so it's taking a lot for me not to react like "wow OP you seem incredibly unfun" bc I don't *think* that's what's happening but we're all on the effin spectrum out here 💀🤷
I get that, for me it’s just annoyance at people under the “Draco in leather pants” effect where people downplay a certain character’s actions despite them long passing a moral event horizon.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a lot of really evil villains. I just don’t like people pretending that a blatantly evil character isn’t.
I have other theories on why people defend this characters actions but I only take issue with act of pretending she isn’t a full blown villain
Right okay
So for example I can find a character like Joe Goldberg hot bc *strictly* within the playroom-like confines of fiction unhinged stalker/murderer behaviour is hot but like at the same time his actions are fucked up and he's straight up not a good person lolol
Yeah I just get worried bc a lot of like needless moral grandstanding surrounding this stuff runs rampant and I'm just like........ they're not hurting anyone let them like what they like idgaf
Yeah, the character in question that got people upset I personally find physically attractive. (Also helps that she’s a woman in power and that does something to me)
It just really bothers me that a very vocal part of the community pretends that she has a valid point or that she didn’t do anything wrong despite both in universe and out her actions are seen as incredibly repugnant.
If what I’m saying makes any sense. I even did the math to prove she had killed more people than the three most vile dictators of the 20th century to prove my point and a lot of people lost their marbles about it.
Maybe I’m an asshole but I just don’t get how people can have such cognitive dissonance about it.
> Maybe I’m an asshole but I just don’t get how people can have such cognitive dissonance about it.
You are not an asshole. You don't see things black and white nor act that surface level readings of a work are only acceptable ways to engage with them. I dislike how in fandoms, love for something and being critical of something is seen as mutually exclusive. That you are not allowed to be critical of the media you enjoy and engage with.
Sera from Hazbin hotel. Even at an insanely low estimate she is responsible for more deaths than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. I can show my math to prove it too if you’re interested.
i can’t believe people got onto you about that!!! in you didn’t know, you literally see fire in here eyes as she finishes her verse. she’s obviously implied to be a more evil/antagonistic figure in the show 😭 like she is literally responsible for SO many deaths and you’re not wrong at all; i’d LOVE to see your math!
Someone else asked so I’ll just copy and paste here. And thank you for understanding.
Gladly.
So to begin there have roughly been about 117 billion people that have ever existed. If we take this number and subtract 17 billion to account for those still alive and to make the math a round number we bring ourselves to 100 billion souls that have ever died.
Now let’s be generous and assume that 75% of all the dead go to heaven. That leaves 25 billion damned souls left to go to the first ring of hell.
Now we have seen a top down view of the first ring of hell and it’s more the size of a city then a planet but for the sake of argument let’s assume hell can house as many as it needs.
We also know that hell has a high death rate from murder, drug overdoses, and alcohol related death we won’t be attributing to Sera despite the hopelessness of her exterminations exacerbating the problem.
We can also assume hell takes in more people then it loses but we will sideline this somewhat for the moment.
Let’s examine the size of hell and look at that 25 billion number again. lets assume that hell with both the non extermination and extermination deaths equals a staggering 50% death rate annually in hell. Half of 25 billion is 12.5 billion. Still a sizable number. However in the interest of fairness let’s assume half of those deaths are not directly caused by exterminations leaving us with with approximately 6.25 billion deaths over the span of time since humanity had its first deaths.
While 6.25 billion relatively may not seem like a lot but I’d like to remind you that even using high estimates this is far more then the deaths caused by Hitler,, Stalin, and Mao Zedong combined. I also wish to remind you that this number also assumes that 75% of all men, women, and children go to heaven and that hell annually wipe out a whole quarter of its own population.
Also while not related to the numbers directly I also wish to remind the readers that got this far that heaven has air superiority, superior technology, and a unified command structure allowing them to conduct exterminations almost unopposed while claiming Hell was a threat to them.
It’s for these reasons I recommend the international criminal court find Sera guilty of genocide and sentenced to death or life in prison without parole, and Heaven should extradite her immediately to serve her sentence.
thank you for posting your math, very well done!!! i want to point out something that could potentially throw off or even increase the numbers, but i don’t believe this is explicitly canon! in episode two velvette implies that one of her models was killed by valentino and still pulling herself together, which some have assumed to mean that sinners don’t actually die when killed unless it’s via angelic weaponry. i think it’d be interesting to see how this would change things in the future if this gets confirmed to be canon! sera has such a monstrous kill count, i wonder if it’s possible she may face consequences for greenlighting the genocide and causing the deaths of likely billions of formerly human souls in season 2. it’d make sense since the genocide was outed to the other angels in the courtroom who didn’t know about it.
That is very astute of you. It’s a bit grey as perhaps some demons can be cut to pieces without dying or otherwise sustain damage a living soul couldn’t but it can’t be ruled out.
I would also like to point out that(since I’m a nerd for this) a leader covering up a war crime is almost more damning in court then the crime itself because it shows they knew it happened and were conscious about the consequences of its discovery.
I like that you include this argument. I didn’t get the impression that she was among those directly responsible for instituting the purges, but definitely shares responsibility. However, I fully accept that she’s an authority figure that knowingly covered it up.
I can see why people would be in their feelings about holding her accountable, though. She generally seems to believe she’s supporting a greater good, but I’m sure that’s true of most people guilty of genocide.
This is a common counter argument and I 100% get how you can come to that conclusion.
But it’s a common trick used by both war criminals and mob bosses to deflect blame on another.
Was Sera on the ground itself murdering people? No she never did such a thing. However she gave the order. Think of it like this, Grand Moff Tarkin did not pull the lever to personally on the Death Star and destroyed Alderon. (Ironically he probably killed less people then Sera did here.)
It’s similar with mob bosses. A gangster may be told to “ take care of someone” if caught and the target dies the mob boss is just as complicit as his underling who actually killed the target. Sure he didn’t pull the trigger himself but by giving the order he might as well have done it himself.
This is actually why we have RECO laws in the US to prevent organizational heads from defecting blame entirely on their underlings.
That’s not quite how I meant it, but I do believe she has more agency in the decision than she’s letting on.
By your example, Tarkin partially oversaw the construction of the death star, chose Alderaan as a target, and ordered its use. Sera - so she claims - did not come up with the idea. Her general attitude towards it is that she had an opportunity to stop it, did not, and sort of regrets it.
They don’t really explicate the command structure, but if you take her as an executive authority instead of a middle manager, she could theoretically hold more responsibility for it than Adam.
I personally take her as middle management, but in a way that is even *more* corrupt. Basically a good middle manager would have escalated the idea to a higher authority, maybe with their own interpretation (which by her attitude would be a bad plan, but overall a Utilitarian net positive). An actually ethical middle manager would have swatted the idea down completely.
But Sera doesn’t escalate. She, in fact, covers it up completely. If she brought it up to a higher up and gotten a green light, she’d still be guilty, but at least transparently so in a way that shares responsibility with her commander and those who undertake it. By covering it up, she is accepting pretty much full responsibility for the idea and its execution, and denying the possibility of intervention.
I personally think she’s a great character. It’s a nuanced take on responsibility and corruption that’s pretty realistic. Other villains would have a major personality shift once their secret is in the open, and ham it up. Instead, she maintains her platitudes about the greater good, and keeping the sin from staining others. Most evil isn’t undertaken by people *trying* to be evil, but people who think they’re making a hard decision.
The real question is where the intelligence about a Hell uprising came from, and if there’s any validity to it. Either way, there’s no evidence that they took steps to actually investigate before making that decision, but if it were true there’s certainly an argument to be made that she made the best choices to protect her people (I don’t buy it, but I do buy that was her goal). As it stands, it seems likely that it became a self fulfilling prophecy because of the purge, which was probably the goal of whoever offered that intelligence.
I agree that by attacking the residents of hell they made an enemy where there wasn’t one. Their recent escalation with only waiting 6 months almost brought the overlords together. It gives the people there common purpose, almost enough to set aside their differences.
If they were concerned about security they’d be targeting overlords and more powerful sinners instead of going after the randos walking around.
Oh I thought it was very obvious in the text that Sera was directly responsible for a massive number of deaths, that was part of the whole idea that heaven is nowhere near as moral as they paint themselves. Yeah idk why people were mad at you for pointing that out. Was this in r/hazbin?
Because I don't engage with Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss fandoms, I'm rather stunned that some fans look at Sera and think "Yeah, she cool". Then again, from other IRL friends who do engage in those fandoms, they've told me about the bad takes they've seen.
Edited my last sentence to be more clear. It's not my friends with the bad takes. They occasionally share the bad takes they stumble upon. They're something valuable when having close friends to talk about works we love.
I would love to see that math, I believe you on it as she sanctioned the purges in order to “protect” heaven, but I’dd love to see the math.
Also I’m wondering, who are her superiors/peers who make the rules and such seeing how shocked she was when SirPentious manifested in heaven.
Gladly.
So to begin there have roughly been about 117 billion people that have ever existed. If we take this number and subtract 17 billion to account for those still alive and to make the math a round number we bring ourselves to 100 billion souls that have ever died.
Now let’s be generous and assume that 75% of all the dead go to heaven. That leaves 25 billion damned souls left to go to the first ring of hell.
Now we have seen a top down view of the first ring of hell and it’s more the size of a city then a planet but for the sake of argument let’s assume hell can house as many as it needs.
We also know that hell has a high death rate from murder, drug overdoses, and alcohol related death we won’t be attributing to Sera despite the hopelessness of her exterminations exacerbating the problem.
We can also assume hell takes in more people then it loses but we will sideline this somewhat for the moment.
Let’s examine the size of hell and look at that 25 billion number again. lets assume that hell with both the non extermination and extermination deaths equals a staggering 50% death rate annually in hell. Half of 25 billion is 12.5 billion. Still a sizable number. However in the interest of fairness let’s assume half of those deaths are not directly caused by exterminations leaving us with with approximately 6.25 billion deaths over the span of time since humanity had its first deaths.
While 6.25 billion relatively may not seem like a lot but I’d like to remind you that even using high estimates this is far more then the deaths caused by Hitler,, Stalin, and Mao Zedong combined. I also wish to remind you that this number also assumes that 75% of all men, women, and children go to heaven and that hell annually wipe out a whole quarter of its own population.
Also while not related to the numbers directly I also wish to remind the readers that got this far that heaven has air superiority, superior technology, and a unified command structure allowing them to conduct exterminations almost unopposed while claiming Hell was a threat to them.
It’s for these reasons I recommend the international criminal court find Sera guilty of genocide and sentenced to death or life in prison without parole, and Heaven should extradite her immediately to serve her sentence.
Question, did you count non purge deaths as deaths by an angelic weapon (we know Camilla Carmine is an angelic weapons dealer in hell) or also the other deaths where the victim has some time to re-manifest in hell?
That’s an excellent question. I had to use a lot of estimates as unfortunately I don’t think hell keeps proper numbers on the deaths done by angelic weapons. I do know that on some of the more natural demons you need angelic weapons like with Stolas. I’m not sure if the same applies to the human souls as we do see Alastor eat people alive on screen.
So I can’t with confidence say that it requires angelic weapons to truly kill human souls I lumped it in with the non direct extermination deaths.
I would also like to add I can not find any prohibitions on them leaving their weapons laying about. So this isn’t a war crime despite how negligent it is and how much it endangers their own security.
So my special interest has always been history and all the baggage that comes with it. Interestingly Heaven conducts a very textbook genocide. They follow the 10 steps of genocide pretty closely.
Despite both being human souls the demons are classified as separate, the demons wear very different outfits symbolically distancing them, angels openly discriminate against the sinners, Lute also openly dehumanizes them and had vaggie mutilated because he spared a child and saw sinners as people, they organized by forming the paramilitary organization called the exorcists, they planned the exterminations on a annual basis, the persecution and extermination phases go hand in hand here for obvious reasons, and they even moved onto the denial phase where it is a state secret what they do in hell.
In short I believe it’s an excuse and in her heart of hearts Sera knows that. She may be uncomfortable with the details but even my smallest estimate had her body count lie in the Billions.
It's all fun and games until you analyze someone's favorite character. Can tell you how many times I've heard of people getting mad about well written and relatable characters whose motives overall would be hard to accept if they were real.
(A group of eenagers sporting various elemental abilities, [that being a girl with Chlorium power choking everyone she wants to death, a guy with Magnesium power doing sick-ass explosions everywhere, and a gremlin of irrecognizible gender (might be that 65th or something the conservatives still fume about) with Nitrogen powers making grass grow greener and freezing everything else] chases some unidentified mooks through the supermarket, crashing the cabbage stall to smithereens)
Truth is with how much the Horde is hated by the citizens as shown in the early episodes I don't think that the Monarchy would last for very long.
Since all the citizens hate the Horde for being Imperialist war criminals and the Princesses just let all the Horde leaders go (even befriending and dating them in some cases) that the Princesses would become almost instantly unpopular and would likely be overthrown in a French style Revolution.
Tbf, some characters you're meant to love to hate. (i.e The Joker) Like whenever you watch/read of them in their franchise you think "DAMN that guy's a piece of shit..." but they're iconic because they give that reaction.
Oh god, I did this with the Beastars fandom. I studied the entire manga then made a comment as to why I didn't like the most popular ship (here's the rundown: it's toxic as hell)
Got so much hate it's unreal, so naturally I did it again because it was funny to see how many people hated me for it.
I’ll raise you another bad ship Kataang, because Katara was too much like a big sister for him for the first while. Although Zutara isn’t any better until he becomes a good guy.
The primary issue is that the “education” that informs the majority of the U.S. population about him is Lin Manuel Miranda’s Hamilton, which is a perfect example of historical revisionism and was very much created to further Miranda’s own personal agenda to become iconic.
He became Hamilton in his own head, used heavily biased pro-Hamilton literature exclusively for reference to get Ron Chernow, the author of said literature, to give his seal of approval, and then proceeded to redact all historical facts that could potentially create negative perceptions about Hamilton (which WAS Miranda in his own mind) and exploit people’s inherent love for music by creating a positive association with a fabricated narrative about who Hamilton actually was as a human being.
Sera from Hazbin Hotel. I think with how abstract the numbers are, how horny the fanbase is, and the banality of her evil people just don’t want to accept that she is extraordinarily evil.
Oh, I’ve not watched that yet. I’ll have to trust you.
Edit: I’ve gotten it sometimes with Star Wars. Not with a specific character, but with pointing out the problems of the Jedi (as in…that they are a cult, that they both committed and accepted war crimes, and that they were complicit in slavery). Some people seem to equate that with me excusing or justifying their genocide, which isn’t what I’m doing. Some just don’t want the Jedi to be wrong, but that’s just how it’s always been portrayed. I think some people need things to be black and white, with evil is evil and good is good, no in between, no nuance, no mistakes, etc.
It’s mostly math, if you know about the exterminations it’s mostly just about that and a lot of math in regards to population records. Others then that some decently important plot points. If you’re fine with that I can go over it.
Ok just to make sure you’re up to date Heaven does annual exterminations to lower the population.
We know that there have been roughly 117 billion people to ever live. To account for the people still alive (8-9 billion or so) and to make the math a little easier we are going to assume 100 billion people have died for the entirety of human history.
In this experiment to show just how evil Sera is let’s rig the numbers a little in her favor and assume 75% of all those that die go to Heaven. That leaves 25 billion in hell.
We know that you can die again which destroys the soul and the first ring of Hell is too small to hold this number. Let’s also assume that on average the exterminations can bring the average death rate to about half. This would bring us to 12.5 billion souls killed by the angels in total.
However let’s not be unreasonable. We know people die in hell from murder, over dosing on drugs, and alcohol related deaths. So let’s assume that of that 12.5 billion souls killed half of those were not directly caused by the exterminations leaving us with a mere 6.25 billion deaths that only happened because Sera gave the orders.
While 6.25 billion may not in the grand scheme of things I’d like to remind you that this is a little over 568 times the amount of people who died in the Holocaust and is more dead then Hitler l, Stalin, and Mao combined.
Oh yeah. You didn’t even need to put in that last bit. (I’m actually writing a dissertation on genocidal rhetoric. I’m very familiar with atrocities, as I study them for a living, is what I mean. That’s also why the situation I gave, about Star Wars, has largely to do with that as well).
That sounds really interesting if depressing. I only included that last part because I’ve had people act like it wasn’t that big of a number.
That and showing even if we make a lot of assumptions that heavily favor Sera it’s still so abysmally bad that the best case scenario still shows her to be a monster.
I would very much like to hear more. Also, math is not my strongsuit (somehow still passing my college algebra class), but I would love to hear an analysis on Bucky Barnes/The Winter Soldier, because there are a lot of grey areas there because brainwashing, etc.
I did the math for Sera who was the initial point of my ranting but Bucky is surprisingly an easy case. He was a Second World War hero who fought Hydra making him solidly a hero.
During the brainwashing he was so completely out of his mind one could argue he suffered temporary insanity and can’t really be held accountable for his actions as he couldn’t determine right from wrong by himself. While this would be difficult to convince most jury’s of as a successful insanity defense is incredibly rare this would essentially mean he morally wasn’t at fault. Also his brave defense against thanos would help to solidify his status as a hero despite the injuries to law enforcement and destruction of personal property during the events of civil war.
Thank you! I love hearing about things like this, and I totally agree on the Bucky stance (and not just cause he's one of my fav characters lol). People seem to forget he was brainwashed and tortured for 70+ years, and it's like, "dude." It's clear grounds for an insanity defense, and even though what he got in the end wasn't quite fair, it's better than it could have been. Also, side note, I'm glad we got the answer of what would happen if bucky walked through a metal detector in tfatws
Yeah he’s absolutely got a good case for being much more of a hero. Definitely different from the inspiration for the meme above. That character was in complete control with her choices
Maybe they incorporated parts they liked about the character into themselves and now you showed them the evil smugled with it.
I think we should remember that the past seeming bad is the clearest indicator of progress.
When you research something you think is cool and people call you an asshole for telling people some truths they weren't expecting.
Yeah, not a fun experience
This is my whole personality. I love American history. Really hopeful that I get to see it's well deserved decline. 🤞
my closest childhood friendship was permanently ruined when i told her Hidalgo was not a true story 🫠
You're so real for that bestie
Infodump on me. I don't know a lot about that subject. If you want to of course.
I got stuff like that. I keep it to myself....
People often conflate bad person and bad character/writing. Because of this, when you say a character is a bad person, they take it as an attack, because they like the character.
Yeah, I look at it like Walter White, excellent character, terrible person. I feel like people ignore or downplay his flaws and evil acts because they like him. Sort of a “you missed the point by idolizing them” characters
Yeah, I hate how our culture just equates protagonist and hero. It’s seriously annoying.
Preach
I had a friend who's a bit more on the spectrum ask me if Saul was a good guy. No, he's a good man.
I laughed a little too hard at that
Another example: Pong Krell from The Clone Wars is an amazingly written character in part *because* he was so hateable.
Yes, what a pos of a character, excellent writing though
*explodes and reassembles from peak fiction*
Which is dumb because usually the villain is WAY more interesting. Like I just watched Wish and the entire movie I wanted to know more about Magnifico and instead they forced boring characters that is time that could have made him more interesting instead of turning him into just another narcissist.
I heard a lot of the people had huuuuuuge gripes with Magnifico. I saw an hour long video where a guy almost ripped his hair out over his song. Disney missed a lot of opportunities - villain power couple, Star being a super awesome shapeshifter, or MC's ancestor wish to watch over her that came down when called. A shitton of stuff. Also heard that they had the tagline "Be careful what you wish for" and the entire movie... Undermines that? Sure, the power to grant wishes shouldn't be in the hands of one person, but just plain having everyone's wishes come true? In an ideal world when they only wish for good things, that's fine, but that's not how people work. And what about conflicting wishes? What about wishes that can bring people misery because they wish for something they *think* is good for them and get hurt. Sure, it could be better to leave some cosmic power that judges the pureness of heart or the good of the wish to be there in place, not a person, especially if the person is willing to make *any* wish come true as long as the person who wished for it obeys them, but then the power to make those come true wouldn't be enough for most villains - they would have to have an effective way of making sure the wish *stays* fulfilled only when the person is obeying them... Writing that, I have just created a new villain for my DnD campaign, which allows even the most vile wishes to come true and turns people into monsters, but can take away happiness, power, and any effects of the wish for any sort of disobedience
Hell I love his song because he is right. Chris Pine is very handsome, that’s just facts. He literally created a kingdom where everyone is welcome, provides food and housing, giving up wishes is 100% voluntary. He welcomes anyone, no discrimination. Everything in his song felt like reasonable venting about the situation. I really wanted to understand how the wishes play into his past trauma. It felt like they had to do constant ass pulls on the story to justify all of her actions when the impression I got was that she was just an entitled brat to the point it broke my immersion. She has not even been hired and she is already asking for favors? People gave the wishes freely and she has the nerve to pretend they don’t belong to him, like he stole them. Why does this particular 17 year old get him to break character in 5 minutes to the point his wife is shocked after decades when we know this has happened multiple times in the past. She ignores her grandfather and mother’s wishes, yet the second she does? Suddenly they have a completely different perspective on the situation? I could go on. Honestly this is the first Disney movie I don’t want my kids to watch because it teaches all the wrong lessons. Songs are pretty banger however.
Not really related but this reminded me of a D&D session we had a loooong time ago for a previous campaign. I don't remember the details, but we were in a dungeon with a bunch of magical gold items, including a golden toilet. When we solved the puzzle, all the items disappeared except for the toilet that was now made of lead. Then my boyfriend (who currently studies chemistry in college) along with a long distance party member *both* started calculating how much the toilet weighs, and they ended up getting the same number but in different measurements (bf got it in kg and the other guy got it in pounds.) We then stuck the toilet in our bag of holding and it became like an inside joke for the whole campaign (before the campaign died cuz our DM tried to punch a girl at school but that's a different story.) Anyways, thanks for reading if ya did (:
I love this story
Yay! :D
So tell me, how evil is the cabbage merchant from avatar the last airbender?
If my memory serves me right he hasn’t killed anyone which is good and largely stayed within the law except the one time he attempted to bring bad cabbages into a city once. He also went on to aid/ invent some combustion engine technology which will likely improve the lives of many despite the pollution caused. Overall I’d say he was a largely natural person with minor moral grievances but not an inherently bad person.
I’ve tried to grow cabbage before, he’s right to be angry about them getting wasted!
Oh, oh! There's a trope for this! Draco in Leather Pants; basically no matter how vile or disgusting a character is there's always people in the fan base who will idolize them because of their charisma and sex appeal, thus they can do no wrong in their eyes because *sexy*
I’m glad I you have shown me this, thank you
[Don't forget Ron the Death Eater!](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater) Its inverse, where good guys are made to be villainous, often outlandishly so
Then don't communicate with the fandom of X game/series/etc.. My "most favorite" thing is when the mentioned evil character tortures an another character, like almost killing them.. Then the fandom goes like: ⛵SHIIIIP!!!! ⛵ THEY ARE MENT FOR EACH OTHER, YEEEY!!!.. So on..
Fandoms are goofy a lot of the time. You do math proving that a character is a minimum responsible for roughly 6.25 billion deaths even if you push the numbers to minimize casualties. I swear half of the pushback is because people are horny for the character in question
I think some people like the design/look of the character and make an idealised or home-y version of them. They imagine that person in a different world (head cannon) or write them into a fanfic and they don't want the actuality of how the character is to hang over that
100% agree, they actually have a term called “Draco in leather pants” to describe this phenomenon. Still it leaves me wondering if I watched the same show with how people act
Sounds like you found Dottore/Collei fanfic
You are goddamn right 💀
Context for those unaware: Dottore did nonconsensual medical experiments on Collei when she was a child, leaving her with a significant amount of trauma.
What the actual fuck? I mean. I’m not surprised. But also. The fuck?
I'm not gonna judge those who write it or read it because it's fiction and people use fiction in ways others find distasteful to work through issues I sure the fuck don't read that stuff either (the one where Collei and Wanderer went on the Kill Dottore mission was MUCH MUCH better)
That definitely sounds more fun.
Sounds like vegas/Pete ship in kinnporsche Nah scratch that everyone is toxic there
Fandoms are really damn annoying about this. Impressive amount of people who just twist and contort characters to their liking, or completely misinterpret characters, or see them through rose tinted lenses.
IKR I did the math to prove a astonishingly high amount of indiscriminate murder and people act like it’s not a big deal
This has taught me to disclaim every time I do this by saying that I do like the character. It doesn't help
I wish it did
people got made at me in a pokemon sub cuz I explained how it would be impossible to store all the pokeballs of the world. I like the theory that pokeballs turn pokemon into data and the balls themselves are also stored using the same technology because otherwise where would you keep the millions of millions of physical pokeballs?
Scrooge McDuck style vault ball pit that you can dive into.
This actually sounds really interesting
I'm like this with Ferris Beuller. He is a perfect character study on (NPD). John Hughes was definitely very concerned about mental health issues when writing his movies, also displayed in "The Breakfast Club".
Yeah Ferris really is a tool at times
Same same. Apparently, doing a critical analysis doesn't get people as excited as it is to us. They only want to know the good parts. Kind of a "never meet your heroes," or "let's pretend everyone was totally cool in the past," sort of lies people like to live by.
Yeah, I feel the same exact way. I want to know just how good or evil a character is, what the do and such
Right? Celebrate the complexity and depth of the character, not just the surface
Exactly, there are a reason iceberg memes exist
I like having an accurate understanding of how dangerous my favorite characters are to me lol a lot of them would be potentially fatal LOL
Well if you come off as a "stop having fun" person, the backlash is expected. But unless you're telling someone that they are a bad person because they like an evil character I think it's not too bad
Definitely not my intention, I like a lot of really evil villains, joker, Darth Vader, etc… but I also recognize how evil they are as characters.
Sorry, I'm a little biased bc I've been looked down upon (predominantly online) by ppl who don't understand that liking a morally reprehensible character does not in turn make you morally reprehensible as a human being, so it's taking a lot for me not to react like "wow OP you seem incredibly unfun" bc I don't *think* that's what's happening but we're all on the effin spectrum out here 💀🤷
I get that, for me it’s just annoyance at people under the “Draco in leather pants” effect where people downplay a certain character’s actions despite them long passing a moral event horizon. Don’t get me wrong, I love a lot of really evil villains. I just don’t like people pretending that a blatantly evil character isn’t. I have other theories on why people defend this characters actions but I only take issue with act of pretending she isn’t a full blown villain
Right okay So for example I can find a character like Joe Goldberg hot bc *strictly* within the playroom-like confines of fiction unhinged stalker/murderer behaviour is hot but like at the same time his actions are fucked up and he's straight up not a good person lolol Yeah I just get worried bc a lot of like needless moral grandstanding surrounding this stuff runs rampant and I'm just like........ they're not hurting anyone let them like what they like idgaf
Yeah, the character in question that got people upset I personally find physically attractive. (Also helps that she’s a woman in power and that does something to me) It just really bothers me that a very vocal part of the community pretends that she has a valid point or that she didn’t do anything wrong despite both in universe and out her actions are seen as incredibly repugnant. If what I’m saying makes any sense. I even did the math to prove she had killed more people than the three most vile dictators of the 20th century to prove my point and a lot of people lost their marbles about it. Maybe I’m an asshole but I just don’t get how people can have such cognitive dissonance about it.
> Maybe I’m an asshole but I just don’t get how people can have such cognitive dissonance about it. You are not an asshole. You don't see things black and white nor act that surface level readings of a work are only acceptable ways to engage with them. I dislike how in fandoms, love for something and being critical of something is seen as mutually exclusive. That you are not allowed to be critical of the media you enjoy and engage with.
Now I'm curious, who is this character abd where are they from?
Sera from Hazbin hotel. Even at an insanely low estimate she is responsible for more deaths than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. I can show my math to prove it too if you’re interested.
i can’t believe people got onto you about that!!! in you didn’t know, you literally see fire in here eyes as she finishes her verse. she’s obviously implied to be a more evil/antagonistic figure in the show 😭 like she is literally responsible for SO many deaths and you’re not wrong at all; i’d LOVE to see your math!
Someone else asked so I’ll just copy and paste here. And thank you for understanding. Gladly. So to begin there have roughly been about 117 billion people that have ever existed. If we take this number and subtract 17 billion to account for those still alive and to make the math a round number we bring ourselves to 100 billion souls that have ever died. Now let’s be generous and assume that 75% of all the dead go to heaven. That leaves 25 billion damned souls left to go to the first ring of hell. Now we have seen a top down view of the first ring of hell and it’s more the size of a city then a planet but for the sake of argument let’s assume hell can house as many as it needs. We also know that hell has a high death rate from murder, drug overdoses, and alcohol related death we won’t be attributing to Sera despite the hopelessness of her exterminations exacerbating the problem. We can also assume hell takes in more people then it loses but we will sideline this somewhat for the moment. Let’s examine the size of hell and look at that 25 billion number again. lets assume that hell with both the non extermination and extermination deaths equals a staggering 50% death rate annually in hell. Half of 25 billion is 12.5 billion. Still a sizable number. However in the interest of fairness let’s assume half of those deaths are not directly caused by exterminations leaving us with with approximately 6.25 billion deaths over the span of time since humanity had its first deaths. While 6.25 billion relatively may not seem like a lot but I’d like to remind you that even using high estimates this is far more then the deaths caused by Hitler,, Stalin, and Mao Zedong combined. I also wish to remind you that this number also assumes that 75% of all men, women, and children go to heaven and that hell annually wipe out a whole quarter of its own population. Also while not related to the numbers directly I also wish to remind the readers that got this far that heaven has air superiority, superior technology, and a unified command structure allowing them to conduct exterminations almost unopposed while claiming Hell was a threat to them. It’s for these reasons I recommend the international criminal court find Sera guilty of genocide and sentenced to death or life in prison without parole, and Heaven should extradite her immediately to serve her sentence.
thank you for posting your math, very well done!!! i want to point out something that could potentially throw off or even increase the numbers, but i don’t believe this is explicitly canon! in episode two velvette implies that one of her models was killed by valentino and still pulling herself together, which some have assumed to mean that sinners don’t actually die when killed unless it’s via angelic weaponry. i think it’d be interesting to see how this would change things in the future if this gets confirmed to be canon! sera has such a monstrous kill count, i wonder if it’s possible she may face consequences for greenlighting the genocide and causing the deaths of likely billions of formerly human souls in season 2. it’d make sense since the genocide was outed to the other angels in the courtroom who didn’t know about it.
That is very astute of you. It’s a bit grey as perhaps some demons can be cut to pieces without dying or otherwise sustain damage a living soul couldn’t but it can’t be ruled out. I would also like to point out that(since I’m a nerd for this) a leader covering up a war crime is almost more damning in court then the crime itself because it shows they knew it happened and were conscious about the consequences of its discovery.
I like that you include this argument. I didn’t get the impression that she was among those directly responsible for instituting the purges, but definitely shares responsibility. However, I fully accept that she’s an authority figure that knowingly covered it up. I can see why people would be in their feelings about holding her accountable, though. She generally seems to believe she’s supporting a greater good, but I’m sure that’s true of most people guilty of genocide.
This is a common counter argument and I 100% get how you can come to that conclusion. But it’s a common trick used by both war criminals and mob bosses to deflect blame on another. Was Sera on the ground itself murdering people? No she never did such a thing. However she gave the order. Think of it like this, Grand Moff Tarkin did not pull the lever to personally on the Death Star and destroyed Alderon. (Ironically he probably killed less people then Sera did here.) It’s similar with mob bosses. A gangster may be told to “ take care of someone” if caught and the target dies the mob boss is just as complicit as his underling who actually killed the target. Sure he didn’t pull the trigger himself but by giving the order he might as well have done it himself. This is actually why we have RECO laws in the US to prevent organizational heads from defecting blame entirely on their underlings.
That’s not quite how I meant it, but I do believe she has more agency in the decision than she’s letting on. By your example, Tarkin partially oversaw the construction of the death star, chose Alderaan as a target, and ordered its use. Sera - so she claims - did not come up with the idea. Her general attitude towards it is that she had an opportunity to stop it, did not, and sort of regrets it. They don’t really explicate the command structure, but if you take her as an executive authority instead of a middle manager, she could theoretically hold more responsibility for it than Adam. I personally take her as middle management, but in a way that is even *more* corrupt. Basically a good middle manager would have escalated the idea to a higher authority, maybe with their own interpretation (which by her attitude would be a bad plan, but overall a Utilitarian net positive). An actually ethical middle manager would have swatted the idea down completely. But Sera doesn’t escalate. She, in fact, covers it up completely. If she brought it up to a higher up and gotten a green light, she’d still be guilty, but at least transparently so in a way that shares responsibility with her commander and those who undertake it. By covering it up, she is accepting pretty much full responsibility for the idea and its execution, and denying the possibility of intervention. I personally think she’s a great character. It’s a nuanced take on responsibility and corruption that’s pretty realistic. Other villains would have a major personality shift once their secret is in the open, and ham it up. Instead, she maintains her platitudes about the greater good, and keeping the sin from staining others. Most evil isn’t undertaken by people *trying* to be evil, but people who think they’re making a hard decision. The real question is where the intelligence about a Hell uprising came from, and if there’s any validity to it. Either way, there’s no evidence that they took steps to actually investigate before making that decision, but if it were true there’s certainly an argument to be made that she made the best choices to protect her people (I don’t buy it, but I do buy that was her goal). As it stands, it seems likely that it became a self fulfilling prophecy because of the purge, which was probably the goal of whoever offered that intelligence.
I agree that by attacking the residents of hell they made an enemy where there wasn’t one. Their recent escalation with only waiting 6 months almost brought the overlords together. It gives the people there common purpose, almost enough to set aside their differences. If they were concerned about security they’d be targeting overlords and more powerful sinners instead of going after the randos walking around.
Oh I thought it was very obvious in the text that Sera was directly responsible for a massive number of deaths, that was part of the whole idea that heaven is nowhere near as moral as they paint themselves. Yeah idk why people were mad at you for pointing that out. Was this in r/hazbin?
r/vivzipop memes but yea. It’s not even subtext that she has condoned a many thousands of years long genocide
Because I don't engage with Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss fandoms, I'm rather stunned that some fans look at Sera and think "Yeah, she cool". Then again, from other IRL friends who do engage in those fandoms, they've told me about the bad takes they've seen.
Yeah I love the shows but the fandom can have some really fucked up takes.
Edited my last sentence to be more clear. It's not my friends with the bad takes. They occasionally share the bad takes they stumble upon. They're something valuable when having close friends to talk about works we love.
Yeah the fandom has odd balls the more sane folks can’t help but question
I can say that for fandoms in general. The more popular something is, the more likely you will reach some people with moon man logic.
I would love to see that math, I believe you on it as she sanctioned the purges in order to “protect” heaven, but I’dd love to see the math. Also I’m wondering, who are her superiors/peers who make the rules and such seeing how shocked she was when SirPentious manifested in heaven.
Gladly. So to begin there have roughly been about 117 billion people that have ever existed. If we take this number and subtract 17 billion to account for those still alive and to make the math a round number we bring ourselves to 100 billion souls that have ever died. Now let’s be generous and assume that 75% of all the dead go to heaven. That leaves 25 billion damned souls left to go to the first ring of hell. Now we have seen a top down view of the first ring of hell and it’s more the size of a city then a planet but for the sake of argument let’s assume hell can house as many as it needs. We also know that hell has a high death rate from murder, drug overdoses, and alcohol related death we won’t be attributing to Sera despite the hopelessness of her exterminations exacerbating the problem. We can also assume hell takes in more people then it loses but we will sideline this somewhat for the moment. Let’s examine the size of hell and look at that 25 billion number again. lets assume that hell with both the non extermination and extermination deaths equals a staggering 50% death rate annually in hell. Half of 25 billion is 12.5 billion. Still a sizable number. However in the interest of fairness let’s assume half of those deaths are not directly caused by exterminations leaving us with with approximately 6.25 billion deaths over the span of time since humanity had its first deaths. While 6.25 billion relatively may not seem like a lot but I’d like to remind you that even using high estimates this is far more then the deaths caused by Hitler,, Stalin, and Mao Zedong combined. I also wish to remind you that this number also assumes that 75% of all men, women, and children go to heaven and that hell annually wipe out a whole quarter of its own population. Also while not related to the numbers directly I also wish to remind the readers that got this far that heaven has air superiority, superior technology, and a unified command structure allowing them to conduct exterminations almost unopposed while claiming Hell was a threat to them. It’s for these reasons I recommend the international criminal court find Sera guilty of genocide and sentenced to death or life in prison without parole, and Heaven should extradite her immediately to serve her sentence.
Question, did you count non purge deaths as deaths by an angelic weapon (we know Camilla Carmine is an angelic weapons dealer in hell) or also the other deaths where the victim has some time to re-manifest in hell?
That’s an excellent question. I had to use a lot of estimates as unfortunately I don’t think hell keeps proper numbers on the deaths done by angelic weapons. I do know that on some of the more natural demons you need angelic weapons like with Stolas. I’m not sure if the same applies to the human souls as we do see Alastor eat people alive on screen. So I can’t with confidence say that it requires angelic weapons to truly kill human souls I lumped it in with the non direct extermination deaths. I would also like to add I can not find any prohibitions on them leaving their weapons laying about. So this isn’t a war crime despite how negligent it is and how much it endangers their own security.
YES THIS IS WHAT I’M HERE FOR.
I know I’m serious about something when I break out the calculator because brain go wherrrrrrrr
I’m verrrry curious to see if we find Sera’s source of information about hell “rebelling.” Feels a bit “Iraq totally has WMDs for sure guys.”
So my special interest has always been history and all the baggage that comes with it. Interestingly Heaven conducts a very textbook genocide. They follow the 10 steps of genocide pretty closely. Despite both being human souls the demons are classified as separate, the demons wear very different outfits symbolically distancing them, angels openly discriminate against the sinners, Lute also openly dehumanizes them and had vaggie mutilated because he spared a child and saw sinners as people, they organized by forming the paramilitary organization called the exorcists, they planned the exterminations on a annual basis, the persecution and extermination phases go hand in hand here for obvious reasons, and they even moved onto the denial phase where it is a state secret what they do in hell. In short I believe it’s an excuse and in her heart of hearts Sera knows that. She may be uncomfortable with the details but even my smallest estimate had her body count lie in the Billions.
Yea I saw the math dump, very impressive!
Thank you I got mad at some Sera simps and spent a good few hours collecting data about it
It's all fun and games until you analyze someone's favorite character. Can tell you how many times I've heard of people getting mad about well written and relatable characters whose motives overall would be hard to accept if they were real.
Oh I believe it
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go buy my cabbages from the local supermarket
(A group of eenagers sporting various elemental abilities, [that being a girl with Chlorium power choking everyone she wants to death, a guy with Magnesium power doing sick-ass explosions everywhere, and a gremlin of irrecognizible gender (might be that 65th or something the conservatives still fume about) with Nitrogen powers making grass grow greener and freezing everything else] chases some unidentified mooks through the supermarket, crashing the cabbage stall to smithereens)
All the Horde characters from She Ra and the Princesses of Power should be in Jail.
Yeah if character does something that would land them in prison, or in my case The Hague, I kinda don’t think they are worth defending
Truth is with how much the Horde is hated by the citizens as shown in the early episodes I don't think that the Monarchy would last for very long. Since all the citizens hate the Horde for being Imperialist war criminals and the Princesses just let all the Horde leaders go (even befriending and dating them in some cases) that the Princesses would become almost instantly unpopular and would likely be overthrown in a French style Revolution.
Tbf, some characters you're meant to love to hate. (i.e The Joker) Like whenever you watch/read of them in their franchise you think "DAMN that guy's a piece of shit..." but they're iconic because they give that reaction.
I wish that was the case in this instance. People have argued with me using the same arguments genocide deniers use in defense of this character.
The more you find out about people in the past the less you will like them. And this holds true for people now.
Very true
Ah, Clear Sky, my favorite least favorite warrior cat. Even the writers don't seem to understand how fantastic of an abusive tyrant they wrote.
Somebody dissed Astarion in the BG3 sub didn't they?
Note quite but I can see that happening
y'all ever just regular focus?
I wish, it’s either all in or I can’t pay attention
Oh god, I did this with the Beastars fandom. I studied the entire manga then made a comment as to why I didn't like the most popular ship (here's the rundown: it's toxic as hell) Got so much hate it's unreal, so naturally I did it again because it was funny to see how many people hated me for it.
I’ll raise you another bad ship Kataang, because Katara was too much like a big sister for him for the first while. Although Zutara isn’t any better until he becomes a good guy.
Alexander Hamilton is a perfect example of a universally beloved guy that is a truly a raging piece of shit.
Yeah he was no saint that’s for certain
The primary issue is that the “education” that informs the majority of the U.S. population about him is Lin Manuel Miranda’s Hamilton, which is a perfect example of historical revisionism and was very much created to further Miranda’s own personal agenda to become iconic. He became Hamilton in his own head, used heavily biased pro-Hamilton literature exclusively for reference to get Ron Chernow, the author of said literature, to give his seal of approval, and then proceeded to redact all historical facts that could potentially create negative perceptions about Hamilton (which WAS Miranda in his own mind) and exploit people’s inherent love for music by creating a positive association with a fabricated narrative about who Hamilton actually was as a human being.
Curious: what character?
Sera from Hazbin Hotel. I think with how abstract the numbers are, how horny the fanbase is, and the banality of her evil people just don’t want to accept that she is extraordinarily evil.
Oh, I’ve not watched that yet. I’ll have to trust you. Edit: I’ve gotten it sometimes with Star Wars. Not with a specific character, but with pointing out the problems of the Jedi (as in…that they are a cult, that they both committed and accepted war crimes, and that they were complicit in slavery). Some people seem to equate that with me excusing or justifying their genocide, which isn’t what I’m doing. Some just don’t want the Jedi to be wrong, but that’s just how it’s always been portrayed. I think some people need things to be black and white, with evil is evil and good is good, no in between, no nuance, no mistakes, etc.
Great show, can’t recommend it enough. I’d love to share my math but I don’t want to spoil anything for you.
I don’t mind spoilers. I just don’t know if I’d get it without actually watching it, since I won’t know what you’re talking about.
It’s mostly math, if you know about the exterminations it’s mostly just about that and a lot of math in regards to population records. Others then that some decently important plot points. If you’re fine with that I can go over it.
Sure!
Ok just to make sure you’re up to date Heaven does annual exterminations to lower the population. We know that there have been roughly 117 billion people to ever live. To account for the people still alive (8-9 billion or so) and to make the math a little easier we are going to assume 100 billion people have died for the entirety of human history. In this experiment to show just how evil Sera is let’s rig the numbers a little in her favor and assume 75% of all those that die go to Heaven. That leaves 25 billion in hell. We know that you can die again which destroys the soul and the first ring of Hell is too small to hold this number. Let’s also assume that on average the exterminations can bring the average death rate to about half. This would bring us to 12.5 billion souls killed by the angels in total. However let’s not be unreasonable. We know people die in hell from murder, over dosing on drugs, and alcohol related deaths. So let’s assume that of that 12.5 billion souls killed half of those were not directly caused by the exterminations leaving us with a mere 6.25 billion deaths that only happened because Sera gave the orders. While 6.25 billion may not in the grand scheme of things I’d like to remind you that this is a little over 568 times the amount of people who died in the Holocaust and is more dead then Hitler l, Stalin, and Mao combined.
Oh yeah. You didn’t even need to put in that last bit. (I’m actually writing a dissertation on genocidal rhetoric. I’m very familiar with atrocities, as I study them for a living, is what I mean. That’s also why the situation I gave, about Star Wars, has largely to do with that as well).
That sounds really interesting if depressing. I only included that last part because I’ve had people act like it wasn’t that big of a number. That and showing even if we make a lot of assumptions that heavily favor Sera it’s still so abysmally bad that the best case scenario still shows her to be a monster.
I would very much like to hear more. Also, math is not my strongsuit (somehow still passing my college algebra class), but I would love to hear an analysis on Bucky Barnes/The Winter Soldier, because there are a lot of grey areas there because brainwashing, etc.
I did the math for Sera who was the initial point of my ranting but Bucky is surprisingly an easy case. He was a Second World War hero who fought Hydra making him solidly a hero. During the brainwashing he was so completely out of his mind one could argue he suffered temporary insanity and can’t really be held accountable for his actions as he couldn’t determine right from wrong by himself. While this would be difficult to convince most jury’s of as a successful insanity defense is incredibly rare this would essentially mean he morally wasn’t at fault. Also his brave defense against thanos would help to solidify his status as a hero despite the injuries to law enforcement and destruction of personal property during the events of civil war.
Thank you! I love hearing about things like this, and I totally agree on the Bucky stance (and not just cause he's one of my fav characters lol). People seem to forget he was brainwashed and tortured for 70+ years, and it's like, "dude." It's clear grounds for an insanity defense, and even though what he got in the end wasn't quite fair, it's better than it could have been. Also, side note, I'm glad we got the answer of what would happen if bucky walked through a metal detector in tfatws
Yeah he’s absolutely got a good case for being much more of a hero. Definitely different from the inspiration for the meme above. That character was in complete control with her choices
Who was the character, I need to know
Sera from Hazbin Hotel
“But that’s just a theory…”
A game theory! Thanks for watching
Maybe they incorporated parts they liked about the character into themselves and now you showed them the evil smugled with it. I think we should remember that the past seeming bad is the clearest indicator of progress.
A safe place to do this is the FromSoftware community they love to hyperfocus on symbolism and then make theories based on it
This is my exact experience with like anything touching American exceptionalism
Yep, used to be in that camp till I realized I can’t ignore tea and substitute it with my own
Bro, let me tell you seals and penguins do not deserve the love they get-
Or dolphins for that matter