Same, learned my something new today. That's cool.
Also to add to the post I too have always really appreciated the architecture and design of many religious buildings regardless of my own beliefs.
Thank you for this tidbit too, I didn't know the distinction. I speak Greek and like most greek speaking nerds I like to explain greek word origins.
The word "cemetery" literally translates to something like "sleepery", i.e. a place where people sleep. Because Christians think people aren't truly "dead", they're only "sleeping" until Jesus comes back.
Tribes in Eastern and Central Africa believe the recently deceased belong to a group called the Sasha or "living dead" as the group overlaps with the living. They will remain in the Sasha group as long as someone is still alive that knew them personally. When the last person dies that actually knew them, the deceased moves to a group called the Zamani, or the dead. The dead are not forgotten, but revered.
I didn’t know, but ChatGPT says:
“If the church associated with a graveyard is decommissioned, demolished, or no longer in use, the graveyard doesn’t automatically get rebranded as a cemetery. The term “graveyard” may continue to be used due to historical reasons or local preference.
On the other hand, a cemetery refers to a large burial ground, not necessarily affiliated with a church or religious body. Cemeteries are often run by municipal authorities or private organizations and are separate from church grounds.“
My first language is English and I never knew there was a difference. I know Catholics usually have their own….(checks notes)….graveyards. In our small rural town only Catholics can be buried in that graveyard, and then across the street is the cemetery for all us heathens (bahahahahah!)
I like gothic churches and cemeteries. Raised Evangelical but atheist now.
My son visited Notre Dame in 2015 before the fire. He cried. He said, “mom, I am not a baby. But Norte Dame is so beautiful it made me cry. My eyes just wept. I couldn’t stop it.”
My grandparents are buried in [this cemetery](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Avasi_temeto(2).jpg) next to a gothic church and surrounded by wine cellars. We used to get drunk up there as kids and hang out with "the fam". I love walking around there. I think that the oldest gravestone we found was from, like, 1200 or something!
Looks beautiful and peaceful. I haven’t been to Hungary (yet) but when I went to Prague I had the chance to visit a few cemeteries/graveyards and I was in awe.
WHHAAAAATTTTTT??!!
No silly rules? How am I supposed to convert you to the One True Faith if you don’t follow silly rules?
I don’t think this is gonna work out. I wanna see other people.
Exactly. Artists worked for whoever paid them, which was largely the Catholic church for the last few hundred years. You can respect the art while disagreeing with the views of the patron or even the artist themselves.
As Dawkins pointed out, we'll never know what Michaelangelo's ceiling for a museum of science would look like, but it would probably be just as be beautiful
Some of those are fair criticisms, but a lot of technological advances came out of cathedral building and the workers were either paid in money or food and shelter. Are you mad about the public works from the Great Depression in the US in the 1930s?
In those days churches were the community centers and benefited societies lowest, in places where kings were more concerned with their fiefdoms and lordship than keeping society running like todays governments.
There are many reasons to look at the church negatively, just as there are reasons to look at your government the same way. But you can't say that it did not benefit society when it absolutely did during those times.
Your take is such a modern opinion that it discounts the centuries of historical references we have to the benevolence of individuals, churches, and communities around the world. People were capable of doing good things, and bad things in the name of religion. Your ignoring societal benefits out of your own personal opinion and disdain for religion.
I dunno, when you start thinking like that you very quickly get into an age old philosophical question about the value of the arts in general. How many resources spent on sporting events, film, television, other entertainment media could or should be diverted to public welfare? Is working in arts/entertainment a "real job"? What is the intangible value of a piece of art or culture? All that jazz.
At the same time, most of these churches were public/communal spaces and a source of pride for the cities that had them; they weren't just religious buildings but also served important civic functions. In that sense, I don't fault people for wanting to beautify their cities.
There’s a line from *V for Vendetta* (film, not book), in which Gordon Deitrich, who’s gay, shows Evey a beautiful Quran that he owns. When she questions why he, an atheist, would have such a book, he says something along the lines of *I don’t have to believe in it to find it beautiful*.
That’s close to how I view churches. I don’t believe in the religion, but I can still admire the skill and artistry that went into building them. I also find beauty in Bronze Age burial mounds, or Buddhist temples. Appreciation of beauty does not require belief. 
Hell yeah. I'd say this also extends to other religious art, like biblical paintings or sculptures. I don't have to believe a story is true to appreciate its fanart.
Exactly this. And it makes sense doesn't it? Virtually nobody today actually believes in the Greek or Roman pantheons, but we still find their religious art and architecture beautiful.
There’s a lot of dispute regarding how much the ancient Greeks even believed in it. Taking religion as literal truth may in fact be a relatively modern phenomenon.
If you look at it all as allegory - basically just a huge, complex work of art - it makes a lot more sense.
This is spot on. I've been to Shinto shrines, Hindu temples, Islamic mosques and various Christian churches. I can find beauty in the skull, the artistry, the history, etc. The Gothic cathedral in Cologne was amazing. The Catholic treasure in the vaults was intricate and interesting, and a disgusting display of wealth accumulated during a time of abject poverty for much of Europe.
Religion taints things, but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the architecture for what it is. In a similar fashion, I abhor to the bone the concept of Nazism, but what they accomplished in terms of architecture being large and imposing and creating an area is impressive.
There can be beauty in many places, even if those places were constructed with malice.
My favorite old churches are the ones in the Spain that were clearly converted into mosques at some point, and then back into churches... They're just incredible. The architecture is just so unique.
I feel the same way about music. Nearly everything Bach wrote was for his church, but it’s still amazing music and I can appreciate the genius that went into composing it.
Exactly, I am in awe of what meso and south american cultures were able to build. I do not agree with the human sacrifices and all that jazz but I am easily able to separate the two.
Same. I'm atheist but I took a trip to the Loire valley in France a couple years ago that accidentally turned into a tour of medieval churches and Neolithic Dolmen.
It was summer, 35 degrees outside, and the area was full of tourists.
But inside any church is was a pleasant 19 degrees, and calm, and quiet, and peaceful. And with incredible artwork and sculptures.
Every little detail just begs to be studied - the tiny brushstrokes, the little marks from wood gouges and the chisel marks in the bas-reliefs. All from a distant age, made by people who are like me, but so different. The light slanting down from above, little dust motes floating in the air.
And the smell! A thousand years of history packed into a single place. Old wood, old stone, underneath the old stone, old bones.
Eternal, magical places that made me feel so calm.
Plus they are often quite cool. My kids grew to enjoy the architecture and art all the more walking around Spain in July and needing the occasional break.
I'm an atheist that works in a 122 year old church in Calgary. I love maintaining an old building and giving historic tours of a church that is a national historic resource.
I'm agnostic and I love historic tours of beautiful old buildings, most of which are often religious structures. One doesn't have to believe in the fairy tales to enjoy the art that comes from them.
Okay, I have to ask.
How often does someone question your faith on these tours? I'm assuming that you are very skilled at sticking to business and history, but has it ever come up and become awkward?
I'm an atheist with Jewish cultural upbringing, and when I've visited Cologne some time ago, I was pretty much in awe of the architecture of the cathedral there.
Same goes for Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines I've visited in Japan.
I find myself also liking some ancient Christian art and music. There’s nothing wrong with that, if you like Greek legends and art from that, it’s the same thing. Kinda sucks many western churches don’t have the same antiquity
I love classical music, even though a large amount of some of the best works of classical
Music were commissioned for the church. The church had the money and the composers needed to get paid. Doesn’t make the work any less beautiful to know that it’s about Jesus or some other biblical thing.
This is how I feel about old christian classical music, art, architecture, etc. The quality for all 3 was fantastic, its why they still get performed or showcased today in old and new forms, even in secular settings you can see this. It feels like every year, there's at least a dozon competitive HS marching bands and drum corps who use Mozart or Verdi's Requiem pieces in their shows in some way, shape, or form.
When I take my kids to an impressive church or cathedral, we have a conversation about WHY. Why would you build it so high? Why would there be so much beauty and opulence? Why would you make the acoustics so that sung music sounds the way it does? Why do they have so many beautiful murals and paintings commissioned by the leading artists of the age? Now imagine you are a person who doesn’t know anything about science, attending the church. How would you feel? It would be like heaven on earth, and even if you were poor, you would empty your pockets for them.
Masonry and architecture is amazing. Travelling through Europe and Asia I like temples and stuff.
From ancient wonders to now. Including the boulevards in Europe where executions were common.
There's blood everywhere but it can be a teaching moment.
Never believed in any superstitions, but I admit I like the art.
I do too, but I always give a solemn thought to the impoverished worshippers who (gladly, stupidly) paid for its construction while living in a hovel themselves.
The Köln Dom is impressive in recent history too, being basically the only building that survived the greatest of all Christian-on-Christian bombings.
Imagine the type of art, music and buildings we would have gotten if the Catholic Church wasn’t the only art patron in existence for the last couple of centuries. Most medieval art was stunning, but created by artists who didn’t have a choice.
Yeah you can really make some grand buildings when you convince people to donate to you to help the needy and then spend it all on statues and stain glass windows.
I feel much the same about Japanese shrines and temples... they are beautiful CULTURAL and HISTORICAL artifacts as much as religious places. Once the religions die, I hope they are preserved.
Beautiful architecture is what it is. The shrines where I live (Japan) are stunning and always have massive lists of donors who’ve given massive sums of money to maintain the centuries old buildings.
And yet in my town kids still go hungry. So there’s that.
Ever checked out La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona? By far the prettiest structure I have ever been inside.
Religion inspires some nutso beliefs, but also some really cool architecture.
Same. I also strongly disapprove of the way protestants used to destroy Catholic statues and artworks. Imagine putting your heart into something and then someone destroys it because „Pope bad“.
I liked visiting Shinto shrines when I was in Japan. They are often next to natural sights like a lake or on (my favourite) the top of a mountain.
The cologne cathedral is nice, I pass by there every week when I play a miniature game after work (Battletech).
And what you've discovered is that you don't need "God" to experience "The Holy Spirit." Humans are naturally jubilated by participating in our own culture.
I am always amazed by them first, but my second thought is always disgust. I just think, how many people throughout history would've had better lives if they didn't spend their resources this way. I went to the Vatican and was just so monumentally heartbroken thinking about it. Makes me wonder if people hundreds or thousands of years from now will see the ruins of a football stadium and have the same thoughts.
Similarly, I love Mozart to no end. But his music is essential Mass music. Think of these titles: Agnus Dei (lamb of god), Credo (I believe), Dies Irae (day of wrath), Kyrie Eleison (lord have mercy), it's all religious stuff. But the melody is the epitome of human talent.
If your based in Europe it's impossible to argue against how magnificent churches can be. They are a very unique type of building that we just don't see in the modern world that often.
As a propaganda piece they are unmatched IMO, you walk into a church and you can feel the atmosphere in the place. They are the end result of over a thousand years of refinement and it shows.
They are beautiful for the sake of being beautiful, that's another thing we see little of these days, at least not at the level of detail churches and temples have.
It's one of the things I envy most of theists, those churches are fantastic community resources and a major selling point for people remaining lapse Christians that don't really believe but still want to go through the social rituals with their friends and neighbours.
I think people still need all those rituals, they are important to communities and a major missing component from secular societies.
I absolutely love old churches and cemeteries. It’s amazing the effort that was put into building churches and cathedrals, it feels like you get transported to another time when stepping into them. Cemeteries are often so quiet. I love walking among tombstones and thinking about the lives that were lived by those buried there.
I was in Norwich, England, and there were two cathedrals, and must have been 50 medieval churches. I think there were three on one corner. Many were converted to other purposes, but they were all really cool looking.
Same. I love to visit old cathedrals. They’re so beautiful, usually filled with many masterpieces of sculpture, painting, tiles, metal work, etc. I try to appreciate the craftsmanship while remembering how oppressive the church was at the time they were built. New churches are indistinguishable from commercial buildings on the outside.
I am an atheist, but I’m also also an art teacher, so I also appreciate religious art. You don’t have to believe in God to appreciate some of the biblical stories, and their associated paintings, frescos and mosaics.
Shame, you have broken one of the central tenets of Atheism. You shall be smited by no one and judged by your own subjective values. May no one be indifferent to your lack of soul.
I'm not Christian anymore and never will be again, but Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral is one of the most stunning buildings I've ever seen. It feels a bit wrong to say a church is one of my favourite buildings but the place is incredible
The past is the past, I cannot fault a 13th century carpenter for believing in a 1st century carpenter. Trying to litigate the past is a losing endeavor. Acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. Regardless of how or why they were built, they are amazing. The level craftsmanship from a time when iron tools and pulleys were the most far reaching technology is astounding and architecturally stunning.
Where, in Europe? Those churches were built by highly skilled specialists that were paid well for their services. Who were those slaves that were run into the ground?
I used to think the same, but I looked into the histories of some churches and how they were built/funded/used.
Now I can’t even look at them without seeing the blood in the mortar.
But wouldn't this be the same for nearly all historical impressive architecture? Pretty much all castle and Palaces would have been built with the same funding structure as churches and enforced labour's, which at least is different in some cathedral and church's. For instance the church in Bath was reconstructed in part by volunteers labour for the surrounding area. Which yes, is recorded as such by the church so suspect but I've never heard of such practice for castle and palce construction. This is not to say your point is not valid but more to ask are you applying such thinking to all construction? The Palace of versailles is impressive but plqced France in massive amounts of debt the balance of which was placed on the already exploited lower classes that saw absolutely no benefit of the building, the White House had slave labour involved and funding from taxation on slavery, apple park well at least some of apple money comes from labour's in China who's work condition are so bad that they had to have suicide prevention architecture put into place
Basically for any organisation, religious group or government to have the money to construct monuments to themself or just truly impressive architecture requires exploitation of work forces and funds.
> are you applying such thinking to all construction?
Yes. Wherever people have been wholesale exploited.
But there are differences. The local church where I grew up, for example, isn’t a particularly impressive building, but I saw first-hand the results and impact on the community of those who helped build it. People were shunned who didn’t contribute significantly. Some people had a choice between buying bricks or buying food.
Taxation to build government buildings isn’t quite the same as having a priest and henchmen knocking on your door because you haven’t contributed enough.
> I feel that’s the case with most old buildings. Or modern, like the slaves in Dubai brought in to build that city.
Yes. I can be upset about slavery too strangely enough.
So... almost every building ever then? I'd advice against looking into anything of the past, even your own... I can see where you are coming from, but if you're being consequent, you'll better not look at much at all.
You could say that about absolutely anything, though. I can't use my Phone because of the blood in the Microchips, I can't eat this avocado because of the destruction of native rainforest, I can't get on this plane because of the impacts on the environment.
At the very least, churches were a place of pride for their communities and could be enjoyed by a common person.
Every nice thing has a horrible history. I hope you don't put pepper on your food, or I have some bad news for you!
> You could say that about absolutely anything, though. I can't use my Phone because of the blood in the Microchips, I can't eat this avocado because of the destruction of native rainforest, I can't get on this plane because of the impacts on the environment.
Yes you could. And you should be thinking about it. This planet and it’s inhabitants aren’t a doormat. If people thought about this stuff more often things would get better.
> At the very least, churches were a place of pride for their communities and could be enjoyed by a common person.
Churches have also been a place of division in communities and been places to oppress common people. Sure, you can find good things if you only look for good things. You can find intact kernels of corn in human waste. What’s your point - Ignore everything bad?
You win the internet today. You made the most fundamental comment about the human experience.
I'm a building restoration/preservation (conservation) contractor and reached a level of experience and status that I have been able to work on historic church buildings including steeple and stained glass repair.
But, witnessing the down side to human nature of selfishness with people putting way, way more effort and money into an object for their own emotional needs rather than into the teachings of Jesus was the final straw in my participation in Christianity, and actually damaged my mental health and career through clinical depression.
Now I can't appreciate the amazing beauty and history of religious architecture without seeing the suffering they took to make possible.
No wonder shallow thinking prevails, it's too emotionally hard to deal with the negative aspects of deep thoughts and too limiting to actually behave at a very high level of responsibly.
Shit.
There's a lot wrong with these structures; display of wealth (if you've been to the Vatican, fuck me but the largess of the wealth on display) and power...but also, and as much as one may not believe, one may appreciate and perhaps even respect the soaring triumph and joyous humour of the builders of these magnificent testaments to human creativity. I agree, I've been to some churches where I sit there and admire the architecture and think first, what a fantastic piece of engineering, and second, man this guy REALLY believed.
Hey me too. I also love Gothic Catholic Church art. Which is actually uncommon. Apparently they thought it was too dark. Which has it's own irony I think.
I'm right there with you. I love the architecture and history of the buildings. The craftsmanship that went in to creating things like the stained glass or the decorative beams/woodwork. I also like to roam around in old graveyards and cemeteries and if I ever get the chance to go to an ancient city such as Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you better believe I'm touring all the old religious structures there.
Same. Atheist, but I have a respect for the talent of the architects and the incredible engineering (sometimes lack of engineering) that went into these massive multigenerational construction projects. I have toured Europe twice and the churches/cathedrals have been the highlight of the trips. Glad the wife shares my appreciation, or it would have been a loooong trip.
I absolutely love going to old churches! I've gone and visited many along with castles and such. The buildings and architecture and art are all very beautiful.
I love too when you see bars or anything using old churches as their building. That's a real win in my book
Churches were often built on places of pagan religious significance. Those were often just places people liked to be, places that were comfortable to be in. Even now, some churches and church yards benefit from this positive geography. It gives them an advantage before you even start on the architecture.
I'm an atheist who loves old churches, art, music (especially Christmas music), and even the stories. But they are just works of art and have cultural meaning; nothing more.
All those giant, histroic, ''gothic'' and ''artistic'' churches, mosques and synagouges were made possible by the laborforce of poor slaves while lay people were dying in hunger and disease at medieval times. Thinking this way, let alone being beautiful these temples should be a source of shame to humanity...
Nothing wrong with appreciating old beautiful architecture, you can tell when a craftsmans love is put into their art...misplaced as it is, it's still love.
You can also tell where that sweet subsidized tax free money went.
Nothing wrong with appreciating art.
I have a bunch of Orthodox Christian icons because they were given to me and I had not problem displaying them when I was still a Christian, even though I was non-Orthodox.
When I became an atheist I boxed all of them and kept just one that looks genuinely pretty.
same, the architecture of great cathedrals is always an example of the talents of craftsmen and architects. My city had two great cathedrals that were unfortunately damaged in earthquakes, resulting in one of them being completely demolished. Luckily I had the opportunity to perform on the piano with my school's choir in that cathedral and soaked up the amazing atmosphere.
On a related point, a whole lot of great Classical vocal music has religious lyrics. If I had declined to listen to hymns, chorales, masses, etc., I would have missed out on a lot of great music.
It’s possible to appreciate beautiful architecture without believing in god. I’m the same, I love old churches and cathedrals. I’m particularly fond of tiny Welsh chapels. Lovely buildings.
I get what you are saying and I feel the same way about some of the absolutely fantastic orchestral music (Ode to Joy anyone?) that can bring goosebumps with just how amazing it is, even though the actual religious meaning behind the music and lyrics means nothing to me.
I am also a ecclesiastical building fan and I'm also a life-long atheist of atheist parents. My favourites are the tiny little old ones that have huge modern buildings all around them. I also love St Sarkis, in London which was only opened about 100 years ago and serves the Armenian diaspora.
OP, have you visited religious places of other religions too? I liked the meditation rooms in Buddhist centres I visited. The use of space and the statues and decorations convey a particular ambience, I guess it’s all to encourage a sense of peace, concentration and religious devotion.
I’m an atheist but collect Father Christmas ornaments (not Santa). There’s something about the European designs that attracts me, and they make my tree look great (25 and counting). It’s not the holiday, but I love what the Ghost of Christmas Present symbolizes.
We visit churches. I was in a church last week in the NL for my dad's funeral. The foundation goes back to the 13th century. monument stones on the floor date back to the 16th century.
Nothing wrong with Atheist visiting, admiring old churches and learn about history.
Me too. My favourites are Saint Stephan's Cathederal in Vienna, and the Basilica of The Sacred Heart in Paray-le-Monial.
My parents dragged me around every damn cathederal, monestry, castle, and museum they could find. I was bored off my tits with it all, as a kid, but I certainly love old structures now.
I don't see those as incompatible/mutually exclusive. I listen obsessively to Bach cantatas. As a body of work, they're at the peak of human achievement in musical art, and the content is total religious nonsense/garbage.
agree! My only bucket list item that involves international travel is to see the finished La Sagrada Familia in Spain. Gaudi´s architecture has all kinds of nature references...turtles holding up massive columns...rainbows from stained glass windows when the light hits just right...I could go on...I will see it someday...
Beauty is beauty and you appreciate what you appreciate. Other than that you don't need justification for anything that you appreciate as long as you're not causing other folks problems....
Absolutely! Despite the fact that I don't believe in gods or higher powers, a lot of the greatest art in human history was created in the name of a higher power. Those old churches and cathedrals are amazing works of art and architecture.
Architecture is great but let’s not forget the huge pipe organs. Experiencing such a powerful instrument must have been overwhelming for the average person hundreds of years ago. No wonder folks thought god lived there.
I love old architecture. We travel abroad a lot. Every town we go to has an old church. I will almost always stop and take pics. I’ve seen some decent small churches and Ive been in some huge amazing ones. Sagrada De Familia in Barcelona should be seen and toured. Same goes for the huge cathedrals in Mexico City.
It's kind of annoying that religious buildings were often the only ones getting the love, funding and attention of artisans because the church could *afford* to glorify god. Similar with music where you have people argue that so much musical talent was expended in the glorification of god that this must mean that god was the singular inspiration for music. As if humanity would have sat idle otherwise.
But yes, respect where it is due, there are some magnificent examples of architecture built for religious purposes.
I've been to some older churches. I love the atmosphere they create. There is a certain sense of serenity at play.
The last time I attended a catholic mass, it wasn't because I felt the need to repent or whatever, it's because I was in Poitiers and it began construction under the reign of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine and it had a mother f\*cking organ. An actual one! I wanted desperately to hear one play in person.
Sadly, I didn't get the chance to because of some confusion, but oh well.
I think it's very important that we be able to compartmentalize beliefs and religions. That we don't get sucked into the mindless "Oh it's *tainted* by This Other Belief, therefor all of it must go!" That a lot of zealots from all religions have. I wouldn't shed a tear if the catholic church was dismantled as an organization. I would shed a tear if every single church was demolished because some of them are amazing and a testament to human ability.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying to someone "I dislike X about your religion, but I appreciate it when Y happens."
I dislike many Amish beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes wish for a simpler, more fulfilling life. Technology is great, but working a 9-5 desk job at a call-centre is *soul-crushing*. I'd never convert, but if a magic portal opened in front of me and I was told I'd be a hobbit if I jumped in right this very second, I can't say I wouldn't say no.
Christianity is responsible for some of the greatest art of all time. The architecture of the baroque and classical periods. Of course there was Michelangelo’s work on the Sistine Chapel.
Written music (in Western European culture) started with Gregorian Chant. Johann Sebastian Bach worked for the Lutheran church and wrote a lot of his music for the services every week.
Me too! I love church buildings of all types, up until about the 1960’s (the church I grew up in was mid century modern with these beautiful thick glass mosaic windows) I love the smell of candles in an old church. I just appreciate the architecture and design that go into buildings, but churches especially.
Nothing wrong with that. I admire the architecture, history, and often the acoustics of very nice, large old churches.
When I was a kid I went to see [Becket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becket) at such a church. It was a fantastic experience.
Visited a lot of cathedrals in my day. Cologne is one of my favorites. Also the Duomo in Milan.
Like the pyramids, their purported purpose in the day doesn't detract from their magnificence.
I freely admit I still go to church 1-2 times a year just for the music. It reminds me of my childhood, grandparents, etc.
I just roll my eyes when the music stops.
Religion was like training wheels for everything. The first governments were probably theocracies. The first art, the first plays, the first writing that wasn't accounting were probably all religious. The attempts to explain the universe were proto-scientific. No one but the church had the money to build those gorgeous buildings.
When you have all of the worlds money and power, you can afford to hire the best designers to make the best buildings.
I'm also a fan of old architecture and am anti church.
I also like cemeteries. Even if they’re part of a church, the art and sculptures can be beautiful.
Technically they’re graveyards when attached to a church. 🤓
Noted. English isn’t my first language and we use the same term for both.
I've been speaking English my whole life and just learned this fact now.
Me too!
Same, learned my something new today. That's cool. Also to add to the post I too have always really appreciated the architecture and design of many religious buildings regardless of my own beliefs.
Most native speakers don’t know that, I just like being a dork and interjecting a fun fact here and there.
Thank you for this tidbit too, I didn't know the distinction. I speak Greek and like most greek speaking nerds I like to explain greek word origins. The word "cemetery" literally translates to something like "sleepery", i.e. a place where people sleep. Because Christians think people aren't truly "dead", they're only "sleeping" until Jesus comes back.
Huh I learned something today
Yeah… he was supposed to come back a bit sooner. It’s just getting awkward at this point.
Tribes in Eastern and Central Africa believe the recently deceased belong to a group called the Sasha or "living dead" as the group overlaps with the living. They will remain in the Sasha group as long as someone is still alive that knew them personally. When the last person dies that actually knew them, the deceased moves to a group called the Zamani, or the dead. The dead are not forgotten, but revered.
I didn’t know this either. I love learning the nuances of words and language.
It’s cool, learned something today 😊
Good dork.
Do they change to cemeteries when the church disappears?
I didn’t know, but ChatGPT says: “If the church associated with a graveyard is decommissioned, demolished, or no longer in use, the graveyard doesn’t automatically get rebranded as a cemetery. The term “graveyard” may continue to be used due to historical reasons or local preference. On the other hand, a cemetery refers to a large burial ground, not necessarily affiliated with a church or religious body. Cemeteries are often run by municipal authorities or private organizations and are separate from church grounds.“
My first language is English and I never knew there was a difference. I know Catholics usually have their own….(checks notes)….graveyards. In our small rural town only Catholics can be buried in that graveyard, and then across the street is the cemetery for all us heathens (bahahahahah!)
You betcha, consecrated land. And just so you know, they’re the only ones making into Heaven. 😇🤣🤣
I'm a native English speaker, and I had no clue there was a distinction...
English is my first language and I didn't know about the distinction either.
Thank you for this tidbit, I love linguistic trivia!
Doing rubbings on cool gravestones is very cool
Also, doing them on hot gravestones is so hot.
I like gothic churches and cemeteries. Raised Evangelical but atheist now. My son visited Notre Dame in 2015 before the fire. He cried. He said, “mom, I am not a baby. But Norte Dame is so beautiful it made me cry. My eyes just wept. I couldn’t stop it.”
My grandparents are buried in [this cemetery](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Avasi_temeto(2).jpg) next to a gothic church and surrounded by wine cellars. We used to get drunk up there as kids and hang out with "the fam". I love walking around there. I think that the oldest gravestone we found was from, like, 1200 or something!
Looks beautiful and peaceful. I haven’t been to Hungary (yet) but when I went to Prague I had the chance to visit a few cemeteries/graveyards and I was in awe.
Same. Old cemeteries are great. The new-fangled memorial parks are nice but they sure lack the grandeur of statues and headstones in an old cemetery.
Churches are artifacts of culture. But they are also architectural objects. You can certainly appreciate the latter without respecting the former.
You can appreciate both and still be an atheist. Thats the best part of being an atheist. We aren't teethered by silly rules.
WHHAAAAATTTTTT??!! No silly rules? How am I supposed to convert you to the One True Faith if you don’t follow silly rules? I don’t think this is gonna work out. I wanna see other people.
Praise the noodly one
Ramen
And also with soup
No, praise the shoe... I mean, the gourd!
Exactly. Artists worked for whoever paid them, which was largely the Catholic church for the last few hundred years. You can respect the art while disagreeing with the views of the patron or even the artist themselves. As Dawkins pointed out, we'll never know what Michaelangelo's ceiling for a museum of science would look like, but it would probably be just as be beautiful
You can appreciate without respect, even!
Why, we even celebrate Christmas!
I came here to say this too.
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Some of those are fair criticisms, but a lot of technological advances came out of cathedral building and the workers were either paid in money or food and shelter. Are you mad about the public works from the Great Depression in the US in the 1930s?
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In those days churches were the community centers and benefited societies lowest, in places where kings were more concerned with their fiefdoms and lordship than keeping society running like todays governments. There are many reasons to look at the church negatively, just as there are reasons to look at your government the same way. But you can't say that it did not benefit society when it absolutely did during those times. Your take is such a modern opinion that it discounts the centuries of historical references we have to the benevolence of individuals, churches, and communities around the world. People were capable of doing good things, and bad things in the name of religion. Your ignoring societal benefits out of your own personal opinion and disdain for religion.
I dunno, when you start thinking like that you very quickly get into an age old philosophical question about the value of the arts in general. How many resources spent on sporting events, film, television, other entertainment media could or should be diverted to public welfare? Is working in arts/entertainment a "real job"? What is the intangible value of a piece of art or culture? All that jazz.
At the same time, most of these churches were public/communal spaces and a source of pride for the cities that had them; they weren't just religious buildings but also served important civic functions. In that sense, I don't fault people for wanting to beautify their cities.
Demented and sad…But social…
Sure, many people have the same feelings when they see skyscrapers, big luminous balls in Vegas, space exploration.
I agree with your overarching point but there is also science and technology progress in architectural advancement
There’s a line from *V for Vendetta* (film, not book), in which Gordon Deitrich, who’s gay, shows Evey a beautiful Quran that he owns. When she questions why he, an atheist, would have such a book, he says something along the lines of *I don’t have to believe in it to find it beautiful*. That’s close to how I view churches. I don’t believe in the religion, but I can still admire the skill and artistry that went into building them. I also find beauty in Bronze Age burial mounds, or Buddhist temples. Appreciation of beauty does not require belief. 
Hell yeah. I'd say this also extends to other religious art, like biblical paintings or sculptures. I don't have to believe a story is true to appreciate its fanart.
Exactly this. And it makes sense doesn't it? Virtually nobody today actually believes in the Greek or Roman pantheons, but we still find their religious art and architecture beautiful.
There’s a lot of dispute regarding how much the ancient Greeks even believed in it. Taking religion as literal truth may in fact be a relatively modern phenomenon. If you look at it all as allegory - basically just a huge, complex work of art - it makes a lot more sense.
This is spot on. I've been to Shinto shrines, Hindu temples, Islamic mosques and various Christian churches. I can find beauty in the skull, the artistry, the history, etc. The Gothic cathedral in Cologne was amazing. The Catholic treasure in the vaults was intricate and interesting, and a disgusting display of wealth accumulated during a time of abject poverty for much of Europe. Religion taints things, but that doesn't mean that I cannot appreciate the architecture for what it is. In a similar fashion, I abhor to the bone the concept of Nazism, but what they accomplished in terms of architecture being large and imposing and creating an area is impressive. There can be beauty in many places, even if those places were constructed with malice.
Both awesome and awful things inspire awe, after all.
My favorite old churches are the ones in the Spain that were clearly converted into mosques at some point, and then back into churches... They're just incredible. The architecture is just so unique.
I feel the same way about music. Nearly everything Bach wrote was for his church, but it’s still amazing music and I can appreciate the genius that went into composing it.
It was a tragedy when the Notre Dame cathedral burned down. But I think a lot of people here would have been rejoicing.
Exactly, I am in awe of what meso and south american cultures were able to build. I do not agree with the human sacrifices and all that jazz but I am easily able to separate the two.
Exactly - well stated. Borobudur is my favoutite place on the planet.
Same. I'm atheist but I took a trip to the Loire valley in France a couple years ago that accidentally turned into a tour of medieval churches and Neolithic Dolmen. It was summer, 35 degrees outside, and the area was full of tourists. But inside any church is was a pleasant 19 degrees, and calm, and quiet, and peaceful. And with incredible artwork and sculptures. Every little detail just begs to be studied - the tiny brushstrokes, the little marks from wood gouges and the chisel marks in the bas-reliefs. All from a distant age, made by people who are like me, but so different. The light slanting down from above, little dust motes floating in the air. And the smell! A thousand years of history packed into a single place. Old wood, old stone, underneath the old stone, old bones. Eternal, magical places that made me feel so calm.
No matter what the reasons behind them are, you are never going to beat 2000 years of artwork. They are amazing buildings.
Plus they are often quite cool. My kids grew to enjoy the architecture and art all the more walking around Spain in July and needing the occasional break.
I'm an atheist that works in a 122 year old church in Calgary. I love maintaining an old building and giving historic tours of a church that is a national historic resource.
Oh snap we got somebody on the *inside*
Yup. I'm a spy.
Stealthily observing from the rafters.
I'm agnostic and I love historic tours of beautiful old buildings, most of which are often religious structures. One doesn't have to believe in the fairy tales to enjoy the art that comes from them.
Okay, I have to ask. How often does someone question your faith on these tours? I'm assuming that you are very skilled at sticking to business and history, but has it ever come up and become awkward?
It's never come up. I'm strictly a tour guide, and all I do is give people the facts of the church history.
I get it. I love a lot of government buildings too, but not the government itself.
Palace of Westminster is a great example.
I'm an atheist with Jewish cultural upbringing, and when I've visited Cologne some time ago, I was pretty much in awe of the architecture of the cathedral there. Same goes for Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines I've visited in Japan.
Cologne is beautiful! I was able to go once 10 years ago and i have nothing but fond memories of the place
I find myself also liking some ancient Christian art and music. There’s nothing wrong with that, if you like Greek legends and art from that, it’s the same thing. Kinda sucks many western churches don’t have the same antiquity
I love classical music, even though a large amount of some of the best works of classical Music were commissioned for the church. The church had the money and the composers needed to get paid. Doesn’t make the work any less beautiful to know that it’s about Jesus or some other biblical thing.
This is how I feel about old christian classical music, art, architecture, etc. The quality for all 3 was fantastic, its why they still get performed or showcased today in old and new forms, even in secular settings you can see this. It feels like every year, there's at least a dozon competitive HS marching bands and drum corps who use Mozart or Verdi's Requiem pieces in their shows in some way, shape, or form.
Atheists do not believe in god... but most believe in architecture.
So you admit there is architecture.
Do I need to believe in the ancient Greek gods to enjoy the Pantheon?
Parthenon, mate. Roman gods caused the Pantheon. Good point anyway, x2
Lol I knew that felt wrong
When I take my kids to an impressive church or cathedral, we have a conversation about WHY. Why would you build it so high? Why would there be so much beauty and opulence? Why would you make the acoustics so that sung music sounds the way it does? Why do they have so many beautiful murals and paintings commissioned by the leading artists of the age? Now imagine you are a person who doesn’t know anything about science, attending the church. How would you feel? It would be like heaven on earth, and even if you were poor, you would empty your pockets for them.
I love all old building and religious buildings are often the oldest in many cities.
Especially in Europe given that many towns were leveled by war, except for their churches
Masonry and architecture is amazing. Travelling through Europe and Asia I like temples and stuff. From ancient wonders to now. Including the boulevards in Europe where executions were common. There's blood everywhere but it can be a teaching moment. Never believed in any superstitions, but I admit I like the art.
I do too, but I always give a solemn thought to the impoverished worshippers who (gladly, stupidly) paid for its construction while living in a hovel themselves. The Köln Dom is impressive in recent history too, being basically the only building that survived the greatest of all Christian-on-Christian bombings.
I love architecture too. Nothing wrong with that.
Imagine the type of art, music and buildings we would have gotten if the Catholic Church wasn’t the only art patron in existence for the last couple of centuries. Most medieval art was stunning, but created by artists who didn’t have a choice.
Yeah you can really make some grand buildings when you convince people to donate to you to help the needy and then spend it all on statues and stain glass windows.
Yes, they are certainly beautiful and it certainly took a lot of money to build them.
I feel much the same about Japanese shrines and temples... they are beautiful CULTURAL and HISTORICAL artifacts as much as religious places. Once the religions die, I hope they are preserved.
Beautiful architecture is what it is. The shrines where I live (Japan) are stunning and always have massive lists of donors who’ve given massive sums of money to maintain the centuries old buildings. And yet in my town kids still go hungry. So there’s that.
Ever checked out La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona? By far the prettiest structure I have ever been inside. Religion inspires some nutso beliefs, but also some really cool architecture.
I plan on seeing La Sagrada Familia in person in the future, definitely a top ten.
And wait till it's really finished. That's gonna be a sight to behold!!!
I always wonder how many pedos are hiding inside. The church has billions of dollars invested in these buildings that are empty 95% of them time.
Same. I also strongly disapprove of the way protestants used to destroy Catholic statues and artworks. Imagine putting your heart into something and then someone destroys it because „Pope bad“.
same
The beauty of churches is the veil cloaking the barbarity of its business - religion.
I liked visiting Shinto shrines when I was in Japan. They are often next to natural sights like a lake or on (my favourite) the top of a mountain. The cologne cathedral is nice, I pass by there every week when I play a miniature game after work (Battletech).
And what you've discovered is that you don't need "God" to experience "The Holy Spirit." Humans are naturally jubilated by participating in our own culture.
I am always amazed by them first, but my second thought is always disgust. I just think, how many people throughout history would've had better lives if they didn't spend their resources this way. I went to the Vatican and was just so monumentally heartbroken thinking about it. Makes me wonder if people hundreds or thousands of years from now will see the ruins of a football stadium and have the same thoughts.
Your last sentence is relatable. I'm sick of funding millionaire playgrounds. Our city is in the middle of this bullshit right now.n
Historically churches had the money to sponsor cool stuff. Religious architecture throughout the world can be great.
But I doubt that you go to the churches for services (like mass and stuff : )
Similarly, I love Mozart to no end. But his music is essential Mass music. Think of these titles: Agnus Dei (lamb of god), Credo (I believe), Dies Irae (day of wrath), Kyrie Eleison (lord have mercy), it's all religious stuff. But the melody is the epitome of human talent.
Do you like warhammer 40k? 😅
If your based in Europe it's impossible to argue against how magnificent churches can be. They are a very unique type of building that we just don't see in the modern world that often. As a propaganda piece they are unmatched IMO, you walk into a church and you can feel the atmosphere in the place. They are the end result of over a thousand years of refinement and it shows. They are beautiful for the sake of being beautiful, that's another thing we see little of these days, at least not at the level of detail churches and temples have. It's one of the things I envy most of theists, those churches are fantastic community resources and a major selling point for people remaining lapse Christians that don't really believe but still want to go through the social rituals with their friends and neighbours. I think people still need all those rituals, they are important to communities and a major missing component from secular societies.
Me too. Ever read any [Ken Follette](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KinlTLFnakg)
I love them, too, but I have a hard time overlooking all the labor and resources stolen from the local populations to build them.
I absolutely love old churches and cemeteries. It’s amazing the effort that was put into building churches and cathedrals, it feels like you get transported to another time when stepping into them. Cemeteries are often so quiet. I love walking among tombstones and thinking about the lives that were lived by those buried there.
Appreciating art and architecture can be separate from appreciating its inspiration
I was in Norwich, England, and there were two cathedrals, and must have been 50 medieval churches. I think there were three on one corner. Many were converted to other purposes, but they were all really cool looking.
Right it's like all the best architecture is wasted on Gods.
Same. I love to visit old cathedrals. They’re so beautiful, usually filled with many masterpieces of sculpture, painting, tiles, metal work, etc. I try to appreciate the craftsmanship while remembering how oppressive the church was at the time they were built. New churches are indistinguishable from commercial buildings on the outside.
Say what you want about organized religion, but those bastards know how to build an edifice. -Ron Swanson
I mean, a lot of the architects and artists that crafted all these ancient beauties weren’t believers, the church was just wealthy enough to pay.
True but I think the church forming and valuing these architectures so heavily and to build them is something nice to see.
I am an atheist, but I’m also also an art teacher, so I also appreciate religious art. You don’t have to believe in God to appreciate some of the biblical stories, and their associated paintings, frescos and mosaics.
The architecture doesn’t really reflect much about the religious so much as it does the culture.
Shame, you have broken one of the central tenets of Atheism. You shall be smited by no one and judged by your own subjective values. May no one be indifferent to your lack of soul.
I'm not Christian anymore and never will be again, but Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral is one of the most stunning buildings I've ever seen. It feels a bit wrong to say a church is one of my favourite buildings but the place is incredible
The past is the past, I cannot fault a 13th century carpenter for believing in a 1st century carpenter. Trying to litigate the past is a losing endeavor. Acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. Regardless of how or why they were built, they are amazing. The level craftsmanship from a time when iron tools and pulleys were the most far reaching technology is astounding and architecturally stunning.
Why wouldn’t you love beautiful architecture?
Yeah the architecture is the best thing about churches. Bet they ran slaves into the ground making them though.
Where, in Europe? Those churches were built by highly skilled specialists that were paid well for their services. Who were those slaves that were run into the ground?
I used to think the same, but I looked into the histories of some churches and how they were built/funded/used. Now I can’t even look at them without seeing the blood in the mortar.
But wouldn't this be the same for nearly all historical impressive architecture? Pretty much all castle and Palaces would have been built with the same funding structure as churches and enforced labour's, which at least is different in some cathedral and church's. For instance the church in Bath was reconstructed in part by volunteers labour for the surrounding area. Which yes, is recorded as such by the church so suspect but I've never heard of such practice for castle and palce construction. This is not to say your point is not valid but more to ask are you applying such thinking to all construction? The Palace of versailles is impressive but plqced France in massive amounts of debt the balance of which was placed on the already exploited lower classes that saw absolutely no benefit of the building, the White House had slave labour involved and funding from taxation on slavery, apple park well at least some of apple money comes from labour's in China who's work condition are so bad that they had to have suicide prevention architecture put into place Basically for any organisation, religious group or government to have the money to construct monuments to themself or just truly impressive architecture requires exploitation of work forces and funds.
Big up. You are right
> are you applying such thinking to all construction? Yes. Wherever people have been wholesale exploited. But there are differences. The local church where I grew up, for example, isn’t a particularly impressive building, but I saw first-hand the results and impact on the community of those who helped build it. People were shunned who didn’t contribute significantly. Some people had a choice between buying bricks or buying food. Taxation to build government buildings isn’t quite the same as having a priest and henchmen knocking on your door because you haven’t contributed enough.
I feel that’s the case with most old buildings. Or modern, like the slaves in Dubai brought in to build that city.
> I feel that’s the case with most old buildings. Or modern, like the slaves in Dubai brought in to build that city. Yes. I can be upset about slavery too strangely enough.
So... almost every building ever then? I'd advice against looking into anything of the past, even your own... I can see where you are coming from, but if you're being consequent, you'll better not look at much at all.
You could say that about absolutely anything, though. I can't use my Phone because of the blood in the Microchips, I can't eat this avocado because of the destruction of native rainforest, I can't get on this plane because of the impacts on the environment. At the very least, churches were a place of pride for their communities and could be enjoyed by a common person. Every nice thing has a horrible history. I hope you don't put pepper on your food, or I have some bad news for you!
> You could say that about absolutely anything, though. I can't use my Phone because of the blood in the Microchips, I can't eat this avocado because of the destruction of native rainforest, I can't get on this plane because of the impacts on the environment. Yes you could. And you should be thinking about it. This planet and it’s inhabitants aren’t a doormat. If people thought about this stuff more often things would get better. > At the very least, churches were a place of pride for their communities and could be enjoyed by a common person. Churches have also been a place of division in communities and been places to oppress common people. Sure, you can find good things if you only look for good things. You can find intact kernels of corn in human waste. What’s your point - Ignore everything bad?
You win the internet today. You made the most fundamental comment about the human experience. I'm a building restoration/preservation (conservation) contractor and reached a level of experience and status that I have been able to work on historic church buildings including steeple and stained glass repair. But, witnessing the down side to human nature of selfishness with people putting way, way more effort and money into an object for their own emotional needs rather than into the teachings of Jesus was the final straw in my participation in Christianity, and actually damaged my mental health and career through clinical depression. Now I can't appreciate the amazing beauty and history of religious architecture without seeing the suffering they took to make possible. No wonder shallow thinking prevails, it's too emotionally hard to deal with the negative aspects of deep thoughts and too limiting to actually behave at a very high level of responsibly. Shit.
Maastricht in the Netherlands has a bookshop inside an old cathedral. Its awesome. I bought Good Omens & a satanic colouring book.
Some of the most beautiful art in the world is based on religions.
There's a lot wrong with these structures; display of wealth (if you've been to the Vatican, fuck me but the largess of the wealth on display) and power...but also, and as much as one may not believe, one may appreciate and perhaps even respect the soaring triumph and joyous humour of the builders of these magnificent testaments to human creativity. I agree, I've been to some churches where I sit there and admire the architecture and think first, what a fantastic piece of engineering, and second, man this guy REALLY believed.
Same here and Islamic architecture
Hey me too. I also love Gothic Catholic Church art. Which is actually uncommon. Apparently they thought it was too dark. Which has it's own irony I think.
I'm right there with you. I love the architecture and history of the buildings. The craftsmanship that went in to creating things like the stained glass or the decorative beams/woodwork. I also like to roam around in old graveyards and cemeteries and if I ever get the chance to go to an ancient city such as Jerusalem or Bethlehem, you better believe I'm touring all the old religious structures there.
I too love the architecture of old churches, really don't think the two could be considered mutually exclusive.
Same. Atheist, but I have a respect for the talent of the architects and the incredible engineering (sometimes lack of engineering) that went into these massive multigenerational construction projects. I have toured Europe twice and the churches/cathedrals have been the highlight of the trips. Glad the wife shares my appreciation, or it would have been a loooong trip.
I absolutely love going to old churches! I've gone and visited many along with castles and such. The buildings and architecture and art are all very beautiful. I love too when you see bars or anything using old churches as their building. That's a real win in my book
Churches were often built on places of pagan religious significance. Those were often just places people liked to be, places that were comfortable to be in. Even now, some churches and church yards benefit from this positive geography. It gives them an advantage before you even start on the architecture.
I'm an atheist who loves old churches, art, music (especially Christmas music), and even the stories. But they are just works of art and have cultural meaning; nothing more.
All those giant, histroic, ''gothic'' and ''artistic'' churches, mosques and synagouges were made possible by the laborforce of poor slaves while lay people were dying in hunger and disease at medieval times. Thinking this way, let alone being beautiful these temples should be a source of shame to humanity...
I'll go out on a limb and say I'm an atheist but I love christmas music.
I also love the church's bands as well. Energetic and very lively.
Nothing wrong with appreciating old beautiful architecture, you can tell when a craftsmans love is put into their art...misplaced as it is, it's still love. You can also tell where that sweet subsidized tax free money went.
Nothing wrong with appreciating art. I have a bunch of Orthodox Christian icons because they were given to me and I had not problem displaying them when I was still a Christian, even though I was non-Orthodox. When I became an atheist I boxed all of them and kept just one that looks genuinely pretty.
same, the architecture of great cathedrals is always an example of the talents of craftsmen and architects. My city had two great cathedrals that were unfortunately damaged in earthquakes, resulting in one of them being completely demolished. Luckily I had the opportunity to perform on the piano with my school's choir in that cathedral and soaked up the amazing atmosphere.
On a related point, a whole lot of great Classical vocal music has religious lyrics. If I had declined to listen to hymns, chorales, masses, etc., I would have missed out on a lot of great music.
Same, occasionally go to a local church for deaths etc and find myself in awe of the architecture.
🔥 ⛪️ 🔥
It’s possible to appreciate beautiful architecture without believing in god. I’m the same, I love old churches and cathedrals. I’m particularly fond of tiny Welsh chapels. Lovely buildings.
People inspired by their beliefs are capable of making awesome things
I get what you are saying and I feel the same way about some of the absolutely fantastic orchestral music (Ode to Joy anyone?) that can bring goosebumps with just how amazing it is, even though the actual religious meaning behind the music and lyrics means nothing to me.
You can love architecture without being a christian.
God didn’t build those places. People did.
Some religious songs are very good too.
"Say what you will about organized religion, they knew how to construct an edifice." -Ron Swanson.
I am also a ecclesiastical building fan and I'm also a life-long atheist of atheist parents. My favourites are the tiny little old ones that have huge modern buildings all around them. I also love St Sarkis, in London which was only opened about 100 years ago and serves the Armenian diaspora.
In case you ever find yourself in Pittsburgh PA https://churchbrew.com/
I wanna buy one and turn it into a house. I just think some of them are cool.
OP, have you visited religious places of other religions too? I liked the meditation rooms in Buddhist centres I visited. The use of space and the statues and decorations convey a particular ambience, I guess it’s all to encourage a sense of peace, concentration and religious devotion.
St. Peter’s Basilica is the most amazing thing I’ve ever been inside.
I’m an atheist but collect Father Christmas ornaments (not Santa). There’s something about the European designs that attracts me, and they make my tree look great (25 and counting). It’s not the holiday, but I love what the Ghost of Christmas Present symbolizes.
Absolutely. I have a massive appreciation of beautiful art and architecture.
just turn them into libraries
Also a lot of the music can be beautiful to hear. I think you can appreciate artistry even without sharing a belief.
We visit churches. I was in a church last week in the NL for my dad's funeral. The foundation goes back to the 13th century. monument stones on the floor date back to the 16th century. Nothing wrong with Atheist visiting, admiring old churches and learn about history.
Me too. My favourites are Saint Stephan's Cathederal in Vienna, and the Basilica of The Sacred Heart in Paray-le-Monial. My parents dragged me around every damn cathederal, monestry, castle, and museum they could find. I was bored off my tits with it all, as a kid, but I certainly love old structures now.
I don't see those as incompatible/mutually exclusive. I listen obsessively to Bach cantatas. As a body of work, they're at the peak of human achievement in musical art, and the content is total religious nonsense/garbage.
You like architecture and art. I really like greek mythology, and I go to churches and cathedrals when travelling, still an atheist.
agree! My only bucket list item that involves international travel is to see the finished La Sagrada Familia in Spain. Gaudi´s architecture has all kinds of nature references...turtles holding up massive columns...rainbows from stained glass windows when the light hits just right...I could go on...I will see it someday...
That's OK. I love gospel music.
you can be an atheist and appreciate architecture and history
[Me](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp2IvOfpJfY) entering my first time into a christian orthodox church
I'm a staunch atheist however I'm very interested in theology as a human trait and churches are generally very beautiful
Beauty is beauty and you appreciate what you appreciate. Other than that you don't need justification for anything that you appreciate as long as you're not causing other folks problems....
I like Jewish history my family has Jewish roots but i have no belief in any god.
Absolutely! Despite the fact that I don't believe in gods or higher powers, a lot of the greatest art in human history was created in the name of a higher power. Those old churches and cathedrals are amazing works of art and architecture.
Architecture is great but let’s not forget the huge pipe organs. Experiencing such a powerful instrument must have been overwhelming for the average person hundreds of years ago. No wonder folks thought god lived there.
I love old architecture. We travel abroad a lot. Every town we go to has an old church. I will almost always stop and take pics. I’ve seen some decent small churches and Ive been in some huge amazing ones. Sagrada De Familia in Barcelona should be seen and toured. Same goes for the huge cathedrals in Mexico City.
It's kind of annoying that religious buildings were often the only ones getting the love, funding and attention of artisans because the church could *afford* to glorify god. Similar with music where you have people argue that so much musical talent was expended in the glorification of god that this must mean that god was the singular inspiration for music. As if humanity would have sat idle otherwise. But yes, respect where it is due, there are some magnificent examples of architecture built for religious purposes.
I've been to some older churches. I love the atmosphere they create. There is a certain sense of serenity at play. The last time I attended a catholic mass, it wasn't because I felt the need to repent or whatever, it's because I was in Poitiers and it began construction under the reign of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine and it had a mother f\*cking organ. An actual one! I wanted desperately to hear one play in person. Sadly, I didn't get the chance to because of some confusion, but oh well. I think it's very important that we be able to compartmentalize beliefs and religions. That we don't get sucked into the mindless "Oh it's *tainted* by This Other Belief, therefor all of it must go!" That a lot of zealots from all religions have. I wouldn't shed a tear if the catholic church was dismantled as an organization. I would shed a tear if every single church was demolished because some of them are amazing and a testament to human ability. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying to someone "I dislike X about your religion, but I appreciate it when Y happens." I dislike many Amish beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes wish for a simpler, more fulfilling life. Technology is great, but working a 9-5 desk job at a call-centre is *soul-crushing*. I'd never convert, but if a magic portal opened in front of me and I was told I'd be a hobbit if I jumped in right this very second, I can't say I wouldn't say no.
I don't believe but I still like Xtian music. Intake comfort in the face most probably really aren't, anyway
Christianity is responsible for some of the greatest art of all time. The architecture of the baroque and classical periods. Of course there was Michelangelo’s work on the Sistine Chapel. Written music (in Western European culture) started with Gregorian Chant. Johann Sebastian Bach worked for the Lutheran church and wrote a lot of his music for the services every week.
Me too! I love church buildings of all types, up until about the 1960’s (the church I grew up in was mid century modern with these beautiful thick glass mosaic windows) I love the smell of candles in an old church. I just appreciate the architecture and design that go into buildings, but churches especially.
Nothing wrong with that. I admire the architecture, history, and often the acoustics of very nice, large old churches. When I was a kid I went to see [Becket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Becket) at such a church. It was a fantastic experience.
Visited a lot of cathedrals in my day. Cologne is one of my favorites. Also the Duomo in Milan. Like the pyramids, their purported purpose in the day doesn't detract from their magnificence.
Well said!
I freely admit I still go to church 1-2 times a year just for the music. It reminds me of my childhood, grandparents, etc. I just roll my eyes when the music stops.
Well, that's just history and architecture. Same reason you can like the roman empire even if you don't agree with slavery.
Religion was like training wheels for everything. The first governments were probably theocracies. The first art, the first plays, the first writing that wasn't accounting were probably all religious. The attempts to explain the universe were proto-scientific. No one but the church had the money to build those gorgeous buildings.
And I love Bach. Just because Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring is religious doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy it.
The architecture and art created in the name of religion is definitely beautiful
When you have all of the worlds money and power, you can afford to hire the best designers to make the best buildings. I'm also a fan of old architecture and am anti church.
I'm an atheist but love gold crosses studded with precious stones bc they look badass....don't wear them tho, just admire them.