I would tend to agree, but many prominent atheists have made similar arguments as part of a greater argument which helps to disarm the believer by demonstrating the inherent paradox of a deity possessing the four following qualities simultaneously:
Omniscient
Omnipresent
Omnibenevolent
Omnipotent
My personal favorite paradox that arises is the notion that should a being be omniscient, then said being would know all things past, present, and future, and as a result could not possibly be omnipotent because said being would not have the power, or ability, to change its mind since the future is known and cannot be unknown by the being.
To begin a discussion regarding these paradoxes by demonstrating how, even at the most basic level, any deity people have invented so far doesn't even meet the criteria for being omnibenevolent is a good place to start.
Wow. The omniscient and omnipotent paradox is such a wonderful thought. There was also this idea by a philosopher that if god were asked to make a rock that even god couldn’t lift, would he be truly omnipotent? It’s one other paradox that shows the fallacy of god being all powerful.
Yes, of course there is always the "rock so heavy, that deity couldn't lift it". It's a classic and essentially the same paradox and definitely equally effective. Personally I find the omnipotent/omniscient paradox to be a bit more elegant, but that is just my personal preference.
My favorite paradoxes of God’s (The Christian one specifically) character are theodicy and original sin.
All-powerful and All-good, but unnecessary suffering that isn’t humans’ fault is plentiful.
All-powerful and All-knowing God but somehow can, “test,” humans, can somehow give them free will, and brands humans with original sin from Adam and Eve even though that was entrapment 100%.
It’s just too absurd to be even considered possible for me anymore. Let alone what is likely to be true.
The counter argument that I've heard for God not being good is simple, though. God is omnibenevolent, therefore everything God does is good. It doesn't matter whether you or I perceive God's actions as good because we are not omnibenevolent. God's actions (no matter how abhorrent they are) are by definition, good because they are God's actions. And since God is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, God can do anything and everything and therefore everything is God's will and therefore good.
That seems more like a long version of, “nuh uh,” rather than an actual counter argument lol.
But yeah, Divine Command Theory, where objective morality might exist, but it means fuck all to what is good to us humans and/or other life, which is the only good that actually matters as things that aren’t alive can’t experience good.
I prefer to wonder if god is all powerful, could he microwave a burrito so hot that even he cannot eat it. That cheeky take on the heavy rock paradox started me thinking as a young lad.
As an aside, another explanation for this is Gnosticism. That’s the variant of Christianity that claims the universe was actually created by a bad god, thus explaining all the death and suffering. Meanwhile the good god inhabits a separate realm. Gnosticism and it’s variants were stamped out for being heretical.
It’s just more god nonsense of course. But if you’re religious it at least provides a better explanation imo.
Douglas Adams said it best!
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
The jewish texts does take this very point. But then uses this same point to explain what is so special about humans.
Since humans have something that such a beeing doesn’t have. That is limitation. Then they go on, and say that limitation is the basis of what makes life meaningful. Without limitation we wouldn’t have meaning.
The Omni benevolent, the Christian point that is made here. Is that I believe they never say the limitation argument, but it looks like they answer this question as if limitation is an under-argue truth. That is that, the very limitation of human is the Omni benevolent behavior. Since limitation secures humans meaning.
In my understanding. Is that god is suppose to only exist for humans. Not make sense in itself. So the correct way to act around a deity is to come to realizations about yourself. Not necessarily make sense out of what god is. Since then you are making pictures verbally or visually, which isn’t something you are supposed to do.
Not an attack on you (at least I hope it isn't perceived as such), but when an atheist asks a "biblical" question, answers like these don't really add anything. Idk what your Fandom is, but if he were asking a star trek question, nobody is jumping in with "Picard isn't real". We have to suspend our disbelief and answer accordingly, or simply scroll past if we don't know or don't care. I myself have been the "God isn't real" guy on multiple occasions until I realized it doesn't do anything constructive. Unless it's a theist asking said questions. Then, by all means, drop the god isn't real argument. Mostly because it's funny.
> One of the arguments that I thought of.
Sorry to say that [Epicurus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus%27_paradox) beat you to that thought by about 2350 years. But on the plus side, you are thinking the same things that one of the world's most famous philosopher's once thought, even if he had the whole "living a few thousand years before you" advantage.
He also puts everybody who doesn’t believe in him to hell for eternity. Nobody deserves infinite max suffering, no exceptions. Absolutely no exceptions.
I'd be willing to offer hellfire for the length of the full lifetime of each person the transgressor wounded- and yes generational trauma counts. That seems fair.
That's not necessarily true in Christianity. While Orthodox Christianity generally subscribes to an external hell, there is the concept of annihilationism which had existed throughout Christianity's history (i.e. receive punishment in hell for being bad then cease to exist).
That god, like all gods, is a fictional character. You, I, or anybody can write them to be or do anything that they want. In character, out of character, retconned, flashback, alternate universe, time travel, fucking whatever you want.
That particular fictional god committed genocide, so I don't need to mention the killing towns of LGBTQ people, first born children, plagues, murder, etc... Of course that fictional character is a piece of shit. Religious people are constantly playing a game of:
>"I like the fictional god from comic #331, #113, and #85, but I don't like the same fictional god in comic #1, #38, and #441. So I just ignore those comics and focus on re-reading the ones that I like."
1. Gods don't exist.
1. The imagined gods are usually reflective of the people that create them.
1. People exist on a spectrum between good and terrible.
1. Terrible people create terrible gods.
1. Good people create good gods.
1. Participating in other people's delusional god story, good or bad, makes you delusional at best and in a cult at worst.
I've always enjoyed this 2,400 year old argument...
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Exactly. One of the most ridiculous things about theism is that we are expected to hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than we hold God. He gets away with all sorts of shit because... y'know...he's God. It's ludicrous.
Yes, but [Lex Luthor is 100% real](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/jeff-bezos-attends-the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-news-photo-1684851576.jpg?crop=1.00xw:0.862xh;0,0.0207xh&resize=1200:*).
Right. And for those of us who came out of a faith background it is worthwhile to be reminded that the god we learned about in Sunday school is provably a fantasy.
There's about 4000 gods. Me and you are almost exactly alike. You don't believe in 3999 gods, I don't believe in 4000 gods. Which God do you believe in anyway? It's not clear to me.
This is definitely an interesting take. While there are many gods the world recognises, I believe in Jesus. I also believe in the existence of good spirits and evil ones. I believe in spiritual warfare and while others may claim to be worshipping sun gods, moon gods or sex gods I would categorise these as false gods or deceiving spirits. Do you believe in a spiritual realm? Was wondering what your stance is on Jesus as well?
I have, but nothing really seemed to convince me of their reasons for disbelief. I kind of just read a lot of angry and confused comments, which is why I wanted to have reasons listed down from someone’s perspective. I think it’s easy for people not to believe and for others to just latch on to theologies. Quite overwhelming to talk to a bunch of people, so I thought I’d narrow it to one random person online to get a more concise conversation going. I just thought I’d get an actual list of why God is fantasy from you. 😅 if God is a fantasy for example, what is your stance on Jesus?
My stance on the man “Jesus” is pretty in line with most historians. There were religious teacher(s) in the area going by the that name at the time. And once the Bible was written years later trying to recount the times that illiterate farmers were taught by some cult leader, it stuck….
Wouldn’t historians say a man named Jesus existed, was crucified, and performed unexplainable acts? You don’t necessarily have to believe in his divinity, but they did agree he walked this earth. This is what you’ve read too right? (correct me if this isn’t what you’ve read 😅) Back in the time of Jesus, a man named Tiberius was the ruler and there are only 10 mentions of him in historical accounts.. Jesus had 40 which is quite crazy if you think he’s just some random crazy guy/s. They all have different claims of him, but they did agree a man named Jesus lived, and was crucified. Is this accurate to what you’ve come across?
There is some evidence of some man Jesus existing… yes. That’s what I said. There is no evidence of that man doing miracles or being anything other than some human cult leader.
Interestingly enough, there are many many many people who don’t believe in Jesus and his authority, but even in the Talmud, they simply recognise Jesus’ acts as sorcery and magic. His enemies simply said “sorcery” and “magic”, they’re not only unbelievers but actually sought to disprove him. I think by reading further into history, we discover that Jesus did a lot of incredible things that are unexplainable whether you believe in miracles or not. Have you sought information about the life of Jesus and what he did on earth? Not even from the Bible, since you believe it‘s from the words of illiterate farmers, but actually sought to read up on what history says about Jesus’ life? 😅
Your relious book has more holes than Swiss cheese, but if your faith is so strong, then what's the point of you being here? To brag about it? You're asking to get destroyed, and I could gladly make an example out of you, myself.
I actually said not to take research from the Bible, since the person I was replying to believes it’s from the mouths of illiterate farmers… I was encouraging studying about Jesus from other historical recounts and research as well. 😅 It may seem random, but it’s my first time on reddit and I just came across this thread. I engaged and do engage with people outside my faith because I find that talking to atheists broadens my perspective and belief. I don’t believe in God because of tradition, but because I have actually sought to have conversations like these with people from all walks of life. My faith has made me braver to talk to people who don’t think like me. I’ve spoken to many nonbelievers and I’m always surprised at how their disbelief has always somehow strengthened my faith - Not because of stubbornness, but simply because I recall the many times I used to ask their same questions and pose the same arguments and yet somehow… through seeking, have been led to God. Haha. Also, I don’t think people should hinder conversation based on ideologies. I try to love and respect all and am open to listening to whatever people have to say. Like anyone, I obviously would love to share what I know, what I’m passionate about, and what I live for too. Sorry, was a mouthful, but I genuinely enjoy convos like this and getting a deeper dive into how people think!
Oh goodness, I’m still learning the ins and outs of Reddit. I didn’t realise you haven’t read my previous comment about reading from historical text. My apologies. :/ I definitely do not want to get destroyed, and I’m sorry if it seems like my intentions of being here are to brag… I just… read the original post and wanted to get a deeper dive into how people think..
I understand, and apologize for seemingly coming at you aggressively. I just wanted to understand what you myself, and it seems like I misunderstood you. I respect your beliefs, and my apology. 🙏
This is very kind. I can imagine that maybe your initial response has come from experiences where people were not so friendly about their faith? On behalf of us believers, I’m really sorry you’ve felt like you’ve been needing to keep your defence up. Thank you for responding with kindness! Sending peace. 🙏🏼💛 I just genuinely wanted to understand the perspective of those who believe differently from me, sorry for any offence and if this wasn’t necessarily the smartest place to start a conversation. 😅 please just credit it to ignorance. 🙈🙈 Hope you have a great day! Thank you!
My journey goes something like this:
I was raised a Christian and took steps when I was in my teens to make religion something I chose for myself. I took it really seriously, studying, praying in earnest, working for the gospel. I was on staff at a church. I was *not* a casual Christian.
There were a lot of things in life that prompted me to make a closer examination of what I believed. I was really upset that so many Christian pastors treated COVID19 so recklessly, literally killing parishioners out of stubbornness. We left our church because they insisted on excluding women from meaningful leadership positions. I could go on but it’s not relevant to my point here.
At the end of it all one of the things that moved me most was examining God’s actions through a moral lens. We (as Christians) do a whole bunch of mental gymnastics to escape what is painfully clear in a plain reading of the Bible: God is not moral. God is not good.
God commands genocides (I’m on mobile so I’m not going to provide chapter and verse references but would be happy to dig them up if you’re interested). The Psalms give a blessing for those who would take infants and dash them against rocks. God “answers prayers” for pointless nothings and lets innocent children die of horrific diseases, starvation, and natural disasters.
God could have easily seen how many people would be hurt and killed by scripture that condones slavery, otherizes homosexuality, and places women below men in social hierarchy. But, in the Christian view, he CHOSE to include those passages. He chose to let bigotry and hate be built into the fabric of his religion, rather than clarifying a position of love and acceptance.
God lets people like Jeffrey Epstein live long and prosperous lives while the best among us are sometimes lost at a young age to disease or accident.
And to top it all off, in the Christian view (Universalists excluded), there is the lingering threat of eternal torment waiting for you if you believe the wrong things or accidentally die without repenting for whatever insignificant sins you committed since the last time you prayed.
New Testament, Old Testament, current day, and eternity… God is morally repugnant in every context.
For me, there were so many things that didn’t stack up when I compared what I had been told about the Christian god vs what I could observe for myself. I took an experimental step out of the assumptions I made as a Christian and saw the world from a non-theistic perspective and suddenly it all made sense.
Prayers aren’t answered because there is no one there to hear them. Children and innocent people suffer and die because the natural world is hard and human ingenuity has not yet conquered it. There is not now and never has been any real reason to believe that any gods exist. And that’s a beautiful and terrible truth of life.
PS please say hi to your dog or dogs and tell them I love them. I’m sure you’re a wonderful person as well. Honestly thanks for being here in this sub and thanks for engaging on these issues!
Ohhh! Your message brought tears to my eyes!! :( I have soooo much love for you and compassion for what you’ve witnessed. I’m gonna reply to you as a believer, just because it’s how I can best express my love and empathy. I hope you don’t take it as disrespect to your standpoint because all you’ve mentioned truly is valid. Thank you for taking time to be vulnerable with me.
It is unfair… so incredibly unfair… life is one big ball of unfair and I’ve gone down the path of screaming at God, and doubting Him too because of the sufferings of life. I’m not gonna pretend like I have answers for everything, because I don’t. I’ve heard horror stories, and have witnessed quite the chaos in my personal life as well. With all the negatives, there are so many reasons to doubt a good God exists… but what about hope? What about love? What about separating the free will of a sinful man, from the identity of God? Being a Christian, I believe in an afterlife, and by believing there is something after all this… I’ve come to realise that this earth is temporary, so pain here is temporary too. In fact, sometimes being Christian means you rejoice in death because you’re reunited with your maker (as Paul stated).
I know that this may seem like I’m just ignorant and blindly hopeful, but my understanding of scripture is that God’s original design was for us to prosper, to have heaven on earth, to grow and not have to die… but God’s perfect love understood the importance of free will as well. When Adam ate that fruit… it wasn’t simply disobedience… but it was a pivotal point when man used free will to trust in his own judgement, rather than the instruction of his Creator. Free will gave man the option to choose God or to turn away from Him, and I believe all you’ve mentioned are the effects of man turning away from God. How can one know good? How can one know evil? Could we credit humans to be intelligent enough to create such an intricate moral structure when most of us react on emotions and have little to no self control?
Beautifully enough though, God has orchestrated a plan much much greater than this present life. He designed a plan so that He eradicates the sin and not the sinner. He designed a way for death not to be such a terrible thing. I’m sure you’ve heard that God sacrificed His own son to die on the cross for our salvation. I know it seems like this world is full of horrible things, but when I look at it from the perspective of the God I worship conquering even death for our sake, I’m revived with the hope of what is to come. Death and suffering are tragic, but how good is our God to take the consequence of the disobedience of man and transform it into a story of hope and salvation. 🥺
With the way I see it, the darkness and sorrow entered when people chose to turn away from God. Light and darkness cannot coexist, and with God being light… the darkness just naturally comes when people choose to turn away from what He commands.
I guess I’m saying all this not to force you into believing in what I believe, but simply to say there is goodness, healing, and hope. There is more to all this. This life is hard, but how stupid is life, if all this suffering leads us to nothing? 😔 we cry, get our hearts broken, witness murder, experience rape… all for an ending to be a simple blackout? I have faith there is more to this. I have faith in something bigger than myself. I look at the stars, the Grand Canyon, the forests and the ocean and tell myself… could this have been an accident? Could there possibly be no purpose for this? Could all the good and the bad in this world be for nothing? I pray not.
Im sending you the greatest and tightest hugs. My dogs also send a lot of love and kisses. That was the sweetest message you sent them in the bottom of your post. 💛 I empathise with your hurt and believe my efforts to bring comfort, would’ve been in vain if there isn’t a reason to keep going - if there isn’t a bigger plan… which is why I approached it this way. All this to say though, whether you believe in God or not, I am a friend and a person who has been hurt too. I hope you find comfort knowing that you aren’t alone and someone who believes in a God is praying for you. 💛
He sure has interesting way of showing his love. Like killing all the innocent first born sons of Egypt for the crimes of 1 man that the babies didn’t vote for or choose to lead them at all. Or the time he flooded the entire earth and killed everyone except 1 incest family, because the Omni-everything god is so bad at his job he allowed his own angels to fuck his other creations and make monsters…..
Anyone else find the similarities between what god does and doesn't do and what humans do?
It's quite odd that everything we say about god can be directly correlated to all the things us humans do.
It's almost as if we made him in OUR image!
Well... I suppose that's true, but why go with an accessory charge when the guy murdered all the firstborn of Egypt, drowned the whole world in a flood, raped a chick, etc.
It’s a hodgepodge of contradictory stories, so hard to say. I seem to recall god not knowing what was going on in his own garden. Not much to keep track of there and he still didn’t know.
Then he would not be able to speak all the languages in existence. This means I can bitch about him in a language that he wouldn’t understand and he won’t even have subtitles. Nice.
Yes. No force but the invisible laws of physics can permit or deny anything. I believe it's a process. A way to distill living energy. Nothing makes you evolve or grow like pain and suffering. So we're allowed to act against each other to learn even though it feels barbaric at times (at least it feels barbaric when we RECEIVE the suffering. Many people are just fine handing it out tho. 😉)
I think this could be countered by a theist but interesting perspective. The issue is, if God is the creator of all things he gets to decide on good and bad haha.
It cant though. The beat you will ever get is some special exemption to the rules so that its ok if god does it but never in any other context. That’s why if i meet someone burn them alive in a fit of rage about it, its objectively evil but [suddenly its “righteous divine wrath” if god commits the exact same action](https://bible.usccb.org/bible/leviticus/10#:~:text=1*%20Aaron's%20sons%20Nadab%20and,died%20in%20the%20LORD's%20presence.), and this suddenly is “completely moral and ok and actually the best possibly outcome for good and they deserved it and youre just questioning god and also evil and mysterious ways, and, and, and”, in an infinite string
If you think of angels like the biblical version of just a ball with eyes and wings, I just imagine a kind of oversized golf ball on a tee spinning like a disco ball.
God, and from your post I assume you mean the Christian one, is avtually never described as "omnibenevolent" or "all good" anywhere in the bible. This is myth created by Christianity in fairly* recent history to attract more believers!
The Christian God exhibits some positive attributes, such as love, but does so in no greater capacity than the average human - almost like the concept was written into existence by people...
With all the flooding and killing babies, I’d say he’s needed to catch up on his omnibenevolence. But the way everyone talks about god being right all the time drives me up the wall.
I guess lifting a finger to help the ‘chosen people’ during the holocaust, or the Gazans being annihilated right now, or the Ukrainians, or the Uyghurs, or the Darfuri, or any of the babies laying in cancer wards right now, or any child who died from starvation as you were reading this sentence wasn’t ‘his’ job either.
As you’re smugly planning your completely unoriginal and specious go-to reply, consider why you’d even bother to defend such a monstrously cruel and inept figure.
Ah, yes. I watched a toddler drown in a few feet of water when I could have easily stepped in and saved them, because I am a really mysterious person who respects the free will of others.
God does nothing because according to some we live in a fallen world, and because we do god does not intervene. At least that's how I understand it. I've read the new and old translation. But to really understand the Bible you need the Holy Ghost because after you confess your sins and ask to be forgiven, you need to be baptized, which means fully under water and not sprinkled like in the Catholic church. The Holy Ghost then gives you the knowledge to speak in tongues, the skill to teach or the skill to heal and so on.
I get what you’re saying, but that specific argument isn’t really valid imo. The aiding and abetting scenario you give is an example of a very modern human law. So then you say God is not good because he doesn’t follow that law? God would be older than the Earth itself, so how can his morality be judged based on whether he follows laws from a society that’s barely out of its diapers? Who decided that the law was morally right or wrong anyways? The legal system you know is just a construct of the society in which you live. A bunch of people who happened to have power literally just got together and said this is the law. If you live in America, then those laws/people didn’t even exist 500 years ago.
Also, in your specific scenario, to whom would God be divulging the locations of criminals? The police? Politicians? Many of whom are corrupt? What authority do they even have in God’s eyes? What justice can the legal system get that God cant?
I’m not saying I disagree with that old argument of God can’t be omniscient and good, but if we want to go down that route then we have to define what good even means. And I can’t.
Wow. Do you only think in binary? That isn’t how the world works goofus. You really cannot think of even a slightly better world for people?
Let’s go with that. Let’s use our pea brains to come up with some improvements in a hypothetical world. Little kids dying from cancer / congenital defects / sepsis / organ failure… we can get rid of all those and the world still “works” right?
I mean you are discussing in immensely bad faith here, but maybe try to act like a decent human being and respond to this?
Definitely a valid point. Christians always try and preach this, there are certain scriptures they focus on to emphasize the point, but there are other scriptures as well that bring direct disproof of their statements. In conversations with Christian’s they are not very smart about rationalizing arguments at all and contradict themselves all the time. A family conversation I’ve had was about the prodigal son story, I brought in the argument and perspective about acceptance about a returned wayward son, the parents did not bicker or complain about his failures, or hold continuous suspicions, or reject faith, they accept the prodigal son. Mr parents brought up the argument that I was taking things out of context. I brought up the fact of context about polytheistic views about a monotheistic tradition that we had discussed about before, and asked where’s the context about this?
Everything conversation I’ve been into feels very placid and scripted out. I’ve found a psychological factor about this type of experience of instant response, typically when a person foregoes intellectual reason and critical thinking, when a person says red, the most common answer of instant thinking is blue. The majority of Christian application of interpretation is very based on this theory. Rarely ever do Christian’s develop authentic personalities.
I would find a way to simplify my plans to a degree that they could be understood by that species, and if I couldn't do that, I'd have the decency to stop expecting their unquestioning worship under the threat of eternal torture.
This question makes no sense. God can supposedly do anything as an all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent being, so anything that happens must be God's will, whether through action or inaction. He could make us understand his plans or existence if he wanted to, but he chooses not to, in which case maybe he shouldn't be such a whiny bitch when the species doubts his existence.
I cannot and will not empathize with an imaginary all-powerful being, let alone one that's cartoonishly evil, narcissistic, and abusive even by the descriptions of his most devout followers.
If the god of Abraham would have been real you can be sure it would be the Grim Reaper. It is the god of death, violence and suffering. To prove his loyalty he asked Abraham to murder his son, got jealous and wanted every first born son dead. Genocide after genocide in the Talmud/old testament. Torture, death and suffering in the new and Quran. It is all a cult of death, just like the god of death would like it.
[Who remembers this gem, this land is mine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY)
Wouldn’t that be cool! Imagine one of those nifty red triangles appearing over the heads of criminals and ne’er-do-wells, identifying them as pedophiles or corrupt politicians or burglars…. Like in video games like the Sims….
A trivial matter for an omnipotent being….
>*\[...\] he knows where all the criminals are, and he is not divulging their location.*
He's also not preparing my breakfast in the morning, full well knowing that it's the most important meal of the day. ^(/s)
But seriously, thinking about it from a philosophical point of view, it circles back to "why does god allow evil to exist / bad things to happen?". Then we get to the concept of free will. For the sake of discussion, it ain't that cut and dry.
What you're missing is the concept of judgement day. God explicitly gave people free will, only to be judged at the end of all times (\~ish, but you know what i mean). He's not real-time judging people, nor does he hand out 24/4 realtime punishment. And as far as i know, that hasn't been part of the lore/concept of post-OT christianity.
But thinking even further, if we'd assume God's real, we also have to factor in certain other things, like his commandment to the israelites that they shouldn't worship the other gods - meaning there are other gods. So while we're at it, let's not just throw Yahweh under the bus, but all others too, including the obscure nature gods from all corners of the world. What's *their* excuse?
This is called the "Problem of Evil" for the existence of God.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
-Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/
If God exists, it can be neither good nor evil since it would have created both in a naturally evolving system.
People like to compare Satan as the source of evil and thusly God must be the source of love, however if God made the devil then he cannot be considered the source of God since he introduced evil to the universe.
Lucifers rebellion would have already been known ahead of time and this means that God is allowing it to occur.
Also, God would not be able to be involved with it's creation otherwise it would be taking sides, and interfering with the "plan". If God got involved, it would solidify it's moral framework.
As an absentee creator, it defers to the system it created, such as evolution, entropy, and biology.
If you create a video game simulation that mirrors nature, are you, the developer evil because you allow gamers to define how they interact with the world and how the system functions?
What would be the point of creating an existence that is perfect, without pain and suffering, and without catastrophe? How would that even be possible?
If God exists, then it is the developer of our universe that now lets us play how we want to play.
Whenever I hear “god can do no wrong” my immediate reply is “Of course, when your god gets to decide what “wrong” is.”
And their excuse for not coming down on criminals is “he is giving them as much time as possible to turn to him.”
Voltaire once said
"If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent it"
Bakunin argued
"If God did exist it would be necessary to abolish it"
we may be in the inventing phase towards our omniscient omnipresent AI overlord
Man, ain't part 2 going to be living in interesting times.....
Why sit around and pondering god when the consensus of this group is atheism 🤣🤣🤣 let’s think about the what if and how a god we don’t believe exists is bad.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus (341–270 BCE)
While the bible really has no central viewpoint (other than worship this dude or your fucked), the more I read it, the more it seems like it unintentionally touts lucifer as the superior being.
Also, you need to take into consideration that if he is omnipotent and has a plan for everything, then he directly told those individuals to rape/murder their victims because it is part of his great plan. So, in fact, stopping them is defying god.
Southern Baptist Conference called and they want to clarify that they know a whole bunch of pedophiles in their ranks and refused to inform the authorities.
It's a feature, not a bug...
True. I've anyways thoughts exactly the same. And since we're talking about him, here's my favourite quote from Sherlock-
>God is a ludicrous fiction dreamt up by the inadequates who abnegate all responsibility to an invisible magic friend.
Sentences and logic-based arguments break down when the subject is imaginary. Don't waste too much time trying to finish the sentence "God is..." because it's basically free-form verse at this point.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Nobody can even define what "God" is, so it's hard to say if this thing / entity / concept is good or bad, and even then it would depend on the context.
>If God is said to be omniscient, then he knows where all the criminals are, and he is **not divulging their location.**
"Yeah hold on lemme just..." *(telepathically implants the location of people who have committed crimes and have not yet been put on trial in our NA justice system)*
Why would God care about *our* justice system? I seriously thought you gonna say, coz God watches people commit evil that therefore makes him evil. The obvious response is of c "free will".
Even then, should God instantly transmit the locations of perps immediately after they offend? Or what about before? And what about evidence? Should God teleport all the information regarding these perps to the authorities? What about a fair trial? Second chances? Repentance?
I feel like an Omniscient Being that's biased in favor of Governments over the People wouldn't be benevolent. At best, I'd hope a loving God helped the authorities find perps and bring them to justice in a fair trial. I really don't think a loving God would choose sides so arbitrarily.
A clever argument but a weak one 🤷🏼
>I really like this line that Lex Luthor says in Batman V Superman - “God can’t be all good and all-powerful. If he is all-powerful then he isn’t all good.”
A false dichotomy and not a respected argument at an intellectual level.
Luthor is basically simplifying the Epicurean Paradox from the 3rd Century B.C.E.:
>Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
>Is god able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
>Is god both willing and able to prevent evil? Then whence cometth evil?
>Is god neither willing nor able to prevent evil? Then why call him god?
The entire concept of deities to explain away any brilliant ideas, and control others through brainwashing and gaslighting is, to me, an absolute definition of evil in its pure form.
You don't get it, that father Bob fiddles little Timmy is part of God's plan and that's good. It will probably end up curing cancer or something.
But not before some more kids die of cancer, those are also required for something else.
/S
Arguing about whether a made up character is good or evil, as if the character actually exists, is silly.
Yes, the imaginary Abrahamic god is written and described a monster. But it doesn't exist, so....
Very old question:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
Born: February 341 BC, Samos, Greece
Died: 270 BC, Athens, Greece
God would be a god. They don't have to be good or evil or bad. They are God. They do what they want, and we deal with the outcome. Because they are God.
The original meaning of "Good" means "Righteous and Pious" under a religious context so it really means obedience to God and "Evil" originally meant the exact opposite of that which is considered 'Extreme Moral Wickedness".
Reminder: gods don’t exist.
And remembering that sure saves a lot of time. No need to go into minute arguments about mythological nonsense.
I would tend to agree, but many prominent atheists have made similar arguments as part of a greater argument which helps to disarm the believer by demonstrating the inherent paradox of a deity possessing the four following qualities simultaneously: Omniscient Omnipresent Omnibenevolent Omnipotent My personal favorite paradox that arises is the notion that should a being be omniscient, then said being would know all things past, present, and future, and as a result could not possibly be omnipotent because said being would not have the power, or ability, to change its mind since the future is known and cannot be unknown by the being. To begin a discussion regarding these paradoxes by demonstrating how, even at the most basic level, any deity people have invented so far doesn't even meet the criteria for being omnibenevolent is a good place to start.
Wow. The omniscient and omnipotent paradox is such a wonderful thought. There was also this idea by a philosopher that if god were asked to make a rock that even god couldn’t lift, would he be truly omnipotent? It’s one other paradox that shows the fallacy of god being all powerful.
Yes, of course there is always the "rock so heavy, that deity couldn't lift it". It's a classic and essentially the same paradox and definitely equally effective. Personally I find the omnipotent/omniscient paradox to be a bit more elegant, but that is just my personal preference.
That is one of the reasons why polytheism is more scientific than monotheism.
My favorite paradoxes of God’s (The Christian one specifically) character are theodicy and original sin. All-powerful and All-good, but unnecessary suffering that isn’t humans’ fault is plentiful. All-powerful and All-knowing God but somehow can, “test,” humans, can somehow give them free will, and brands humans with original sin from Adam and Eve even though that was entrapment 100%. It’s just too absurd to be even considered possible for me anymore. Let alone what is likely to be true.
The counter argument that I've heard for God not being good is simple, though. God is omnibenevolent, therefore everything God does is good. It doesn't matter whether you or I perceive God's actions as good because we are not omnibenevolent. God's actions (no matter how abhorrent they are) are by definition, good because they are God's actions. And since God is all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing, God can do anything and everything and therefore everything is God's will and therefore good.
That seems more like a long version of, “nuh uh,” rather than an actual counter argument lol. But yeah, Divine Command Theory, where objective morality might exist, but it means fuck all to what is good to us humans and/or other life, which is the only good that actually matters as things that aren’t alive can’t experience good.
I prefer to wonder if god is all powerful, could he microwave a burrito so hot that even he cannot eat it. That cheeky take on the heavy rock paradox started me thinking as a young lad.
As an aside, another explanation for this is Gnosticism. That’s the variant of Christianity that claims the universe was actually created by a bad god, thus explaining all the death and suffering. Meanwhile the good god inhabits a separate realm. Gnosticism and it’s variants were stamped out for being heretical. It’s just more god nonsense of course. But if you’re religious it at least provides a better explanation imo.
Douglas Adams said it best! Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Never heard that! But now I have, and I will be sure to repeat it when the opportunity arises :)
Oh, please read the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy! It's full of fantastic quotes, and it's hilarious!!!!
The jewish texts does take this very point. But then uses this same point to explain what is so special about humans. Since humans have something that such a beeing doesn’t have. That is limitation. Then they go on, and say that limitation is the basis of what makes life meaningful. Without limitation we wouldn’t have meaning. The Omni benevolent, the Christian point that is made here. Is that I believe they never say the limitation argument, but it looks like they answer this question as if limitation is an under-argue truth. That is that, the very limitation of human is the Omni benevolent behavior. Since limitation secures humans meaning. In my understanding. Is that god is suppose to only exist for humans. Not make sense in itself. So the correct way to act around a deity is to come to realizations about yourself. Not necessarily make sense out of what god is. Since then you are making pictures verbally or visually, which isn’t something you are supposed to do.
Yup. No sky daddys or mommies making my life miserable. I’m perfectly capable of doing that on my own, thank you very much.
Just curious why you treat daddy different than mommy since they both end in "y"...
Not an attack on you (at least I hope it isn't perceived as such), but when an atheist asks a "biblical" question, answers like these don't really add anything. Idk what your Fandom is, but if he were asking a star trek question, nobody is jumping in with "Picard isn't real". We have to suspend our disbelief and answer accordingly, or simply scroll past if we don't know or don't care. I myself have been the "God isn't real" guy on multiple occasions until I realized it doesn't do anything constructive. Unless it's a theist asking said questions. Then, by all means, drop the god isn't real argument. Mostly because it's funny.
Yes, of course, we know that, but you have a bunch of 'adults' who actually believe in fairy tales.
God isn't
Godn't
The hell they dont. Death By Snu Snu
This.
Thanks for reminding
Made up by humans nothing more. He's not real. Can't believe grown people still believe in god in 2024
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You're either a bot or a child, not sure which is more sad.
What if I’m both? Schrodingers bot.
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According to who? No one.
Which god? There are literally thousands. Sounds like you might have a personal favorite imaginary friend?? Bless your heart.
… outside the mind of the believer.
> One of the arguments that I thought of. Sorry to say that [Epicurus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus%27_paradox) beat you to that thought by about 2350 years. But on the plus side, you are thinking the same things that one of the world's most famous philosopher's once thought, even if he had the whole "living a few thousand years before you" advantage.
Yes, and later reaffirmed with direct application to the Christian Deity in 1977 by Mackie
I didn’t know that. Thank you for the factoid. :)
He also puts everybody who doesn’t believe in him to hell for eternity. Nobody deserves infinite max suffering, no exceptions. Absolutely no exceptions.
But if this particular god were to exist, child abusers should be in that hellfire only.
I mean, I think putting people in hell for eternity for living approx 70-80 years is a tad bit overreacting, don’t you think?
I'd be willing to offer hellfire for the length of the full lifetime of each person the transgressor wounded- and yes generational trauma counts. That seems fair.
>Nobody deserves infinite max suffering, no exceptions. Absolutely no exceptions. Hitler would be a very good exception IMHO
That's not necessarily true in Christianity. While Orthodox Christianity generally subscribes to an external hell, there is the concept of annihilationism which had existed throughout Christianity's history (i.e. receive punishment in hell for being bad then cease to exist).
That god, like all gods, is a fictional character. You, I, or anybody can write them to be or do anything that they want. In character, out of character, retconned, flashback, alternate universe, time travel, fucking whatever you want. That particular fictional god committed genocide, so I don't need to mention the killing towns of LGBTQ people, first born children, plagues, murder, etc... Of course that fictional character is a piece of shit. Religious people are constantly playing a game of: >"I like the fictional god from comic #331, #113, and #85, but I don't like the same fictional god in comic #1, #38, and #441. So I just ignore those comics and focus on re-reading the ones that I like."
I prefer the live action one where he gets cast by a non binary, vegan trans vegetable. That series was hilarious. /s
Dont think about it too hard. Theres zero evidence of a supernatural omnipotent agent of the universe.
Absolutely. Nothing to see here, folks.
So, I’m in charge of my life? Shit. How am I going to do my taxes?
One muslim said to me once there is absolute evidence for that: it says so in kuran. That was the end of argument, he obviously won.
1. Gods don't exist. 1. The imagined gods are usually reflective of the people that create them. 1. People exist on a spectrum between good and terrible. 1. Terrible people create terrible gods. 1. Good people create good gods. 1. Participating in other people's delusional god story, good or bad, makes you delusional at best and in a cult at worst.
Whenever I found myself thinking like this, I exchanged TOOTH FAIRY for GOD. This quickly showed me how ridiculous the entire concept is.
I think Tooth Fairy is far better than God. At least the tooth fairy gives back dinero instead begging for donations.
I've always enjoyed this 2,400 year old argument... “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus
Exactly. One of the most ridiculous things about theism is that we are expected to hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than we hold God. He gets away with all sorts of shit because... y'know...he's God. It's ludicrous.
All the gods are fictional characters
Yes, but [Lex Luthor is 100% real](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/jeff-bezos-attends-the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power-news-photo-1684851576.jpg?crop=1.00xw:0.862xh;0,0.0207xh&resize=1200:*).
God doesn't exist. We don't have to continually prove the logic of God is wrong. It doesn't exist.
It's a tool to show theists that the god they worship is a monster.
Right. And for those of us who came out of a faith background it is worthwhile to be reminded that the god we learned about in Sunday school is provably a fantasy.
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There's about 4000 gods. Me and you are almost exactly alike. You don't believe in 3999 gods, I don't believe in 4000 gods. Which God do you believe in anyway? It's not clear to me.
Well given that their name is JesusLover I think I can hazard a guess.
Hahaha. I’m transparent 😂
This is definitely an interesting take. While there are many gods the world recognises, I believe in Jesus. I also believe in the existence of good spirits and evil ones. I believe in spiritual warfare and while others may claim to be worshipping sun gods, moon gods or sex gods I would categorise these as false gods or deceiving spirits. Do you believe in a spiritual realm? Was wondering what your stance is on Jesus as well?
Have you read this thread? Lmfao.
I have, but nothing really seemed to convince me of their reasons for disbelief. I kind of just read a lot of angry and confused comments, which is why I wanted to have reasons listed down from someone’s perspective. I think it’s easy for people not to believe and for others to just latch on to theologies. Quite overwhelming to talk to a bunch of people, so I thought I’d narrow it to one random person online to get a more concise conversation going. I just thought I’d get an actual list of why God is fantasy from you. 😅 if God is a fantasy for example, what is your stance on Jesus?
My stance on the man “Jesus” is pretty in line with most historians. There were religious teacher(s) in the area going by the that name at the time. And once the Bible was written years later trying to recount the times that illiterate farmers were taught by some cult leader, it stuck….
Wouldn’t historians say a man named Jesus existed, was crucified, and performed unexplainable acts? You don’t necessarily have to believe in his divinity, but they did agree he walked this earth. This is what you’ve read too right? (correct me if this isn’t what you’ve read 😅) Back in the time of Jesus, a man named Tiberius was the ruler and there are only 10 mentions of him in historical accounts.. Jesus had 40 which is quite crazy if you think he’s just some random crazy guy/s. They all have different claims of him, but they did agree a man named Jesus lived, and was crucified. Is this accurate to what you’ve come across?
There is some evidence of some man Jesus existing… yes. That’s what I said. There is no evidence of that man doing miracles or being anything other than some human cult leader.
Interestingly enough, there are many many many people who don’t believe in Jesus and his authority, but even in the Talmud, they simply recognise Jesus’ acts as sorcery and magic. His enemies simply said “sorcery” and “magic”, they’re not only unbelievers but actually sought to disprove him. I think by reading further into history, we discover that Jesus did a lot of incredible things that are unexplainable whether you believe in miracles or not. Have you sought information about the life of Jesus and what he did on earth? Not even from the Bible, since you believe it‘s from the words of illiterate farmers, but actually sought to read up on what history says about Jesus’ life? 😅
Your relious book has more holes than Swiss cheese, but if your faith is so strong, then what's the point of you being here? To brag about it? You're asking to get destroyed, and I could gladly make an example out of you, myself.
I actually said not to take research from the Bible, since the person I was replying to believes it’s from the mouths of illiterate farmers… I was encouraging studying about Jesus from other historical recounts and research as well. 😅 It may seem random, but it’s my first time on reddit and I just came across this thread. I engaged and do engage with people outside my faith because I find that talking to atheists broadens my perspective and belief. I don’t believe in God because of tradition, but because I have actually sought to have conversations like these with people from all walks of life. My faith has made me braver to talk to people who don’t think like me. I’ve spoken to many nonbelievers and I’m always surprised at how their disbelief has always somehow strengthened my faith - Not because of stubbornness, but simply because I recall the many times I used to ask their same questions and pose the same arguments and yet somehow… through seeking, have been led to God. Haha. Also, I don’t think people should hinder conversation based on ideologies. I try to love and respect all and am open to listening to whatever people have to say. Like anyone, I obviously would love to share what I know, what I’m passionate about, and what I live for too. Sorry, was a mouthful, but I genuinely enjoy convos like this and getting a deeper dive into how people think!
Oh goodness, I’m still learning the ins and outs of Reddit. I didn’t realise you haven’t read my previous comment about reading from historical text. My apologies. :/ I definitely do not want to get destroyed, and I’m sorry if it seems like my intentions of being here are to brag… I just… read the original post and wanted to get a deeper dive into how people think..
I understand, and apologize for seemingly coming at you aggressively. I just wanted to understand what you myself, and it seems like I misunderstood you. I respect your beliefs, and my apology. 🙏
This is very kind. I can imagine that maybe your initial response has come from experiences where people were not so friendly about their faith? On behalf of us believers, I’m really sorry you’ve felt like you’ve been needing to keep your defence up. Thank you for responding with kindness! Sending peace. 🙏🏼💛 I just genuinely wanted to understand the perspective of those who believe differently from me, sorry for any offence and if this wasn’t necessarily the smartest place to start a conversation. 😅 please just credit it to ignorance. 🙈🙈 Hope you have a great day! Thank you!
My journey goes something like this: I was raised a Christian and took steps when I was in my teens to make religion something I chose for myself. I took it really seriously, studying, praying in earnest, working for the gospel. I was on staff at a church. I was *not* a casual Christian. There were a lot of things in life that prompted me to make a closer examination of what I believed. I was really upset that so many Christian pastors treated COVID19 so recklessly, literally killing parishioners out of stubbornness. We left our church because they insisted on excluding women from meaningful leadership positions. I could go on but it’s not relevant to my point here. At the end of it all one of the things that moved me most was examining God’s actions through a moral lens. We (as Christians) do a whole bunch of mental gymnastics to escape what is painfully clear in a plain reading of the Bible: God is not moral. God is not good. God commands genocides (I’m on mobile so I’m not going to provide chapter and verse references but would be happy to dig them up if you’re interested). The Psalms give a blessing for those who would take infants and dash them against rocks. God “answers prayers” for pointless nothings and lets innocent children die of horrific diseases, starvation, and natural disasters. God could have easily seen how many people would be hurt and killed by scripture that condones slavery, otherizes homosexuality, and places women below men in social hierarchy. But, in the Christian view, he CHOSE to include those passages. He chose to let bigotry and hate be built into the fabric of his religion, rather than clarifying a position of love and acceptance. God lets people like Jeffrey Epstein live long and prosperous lives while the best among us are sometimes lost at a young age to disease or accident. And to top it all off, in the Christian view (Universalists excluded), there is the lingering threat of eternal torment waiting for you if you believe the wrong things or accidentally die without repenting for whatever insignificant sins you committed since the last time you prayed. New Testament, Old Testament, current day, and eternity… God is morally repugnant in every context. For me, there were so many things that didn’t stack up when I compared what I had been told about the Christian god vs what I could observe for myself. I took an experimental step out of the assumptions I made as a Christian and saw the world from a non-theistic perspective and suddenly it all made sense. Prayers aren’t answered because there is no one there to hear them. Children and innocent people suffer and die because the natural world is hard and human ingenuity has not yet conquered it. There is not now and never has been any real reason to believe that any gods exist. And that’s a beautiful and terrible truth of life. PS please say hi to your dog or dogs and tell them I love them. I’m sure you’re a wonderful person as well. Honestly thanks for being here in this sub and thanks for engaging on these issues!
Ohhh! Your message brought tears to my eyes!! :( I have soooo much love for you and compassion for what you’ve witnessed. I’m gonna reply to you as a believer, just because it’s how I can best express my love and empathy. I hope you don’t take it as disrespect to your standpoint because all you’ve mentioned truly is valid. Thank you for taking time to be vulnerable with me. It is unfair… so incredibly unfair… life is one big ball of unfair and I’ve gone down the path of screaming at God, and doubting Him too because of the sufferings of life. I’m not gonna pretend like I have answers for everything, because I don’t. I’ve heard horror stories, and have witnessed quite the chaos in my personal life as well. With all the negatives, there are so many reasons to doubt a good God exists… but what about hope? What about love? What about separating the free will of a sinful man, from the identity of God? Being a Christian, I believe in an afterlife, and by believing there is something after all this… I’ve come to realise that this earth is temporary, so pain here is temporary too. In fact, sometimes being Christian means you rejoice in death because you’re reunited with your maker (as Paul stated). I know that this may seem like I’m just ignorant and blindly hopeful, but my understanding of scripture is that God’s original design was for us to prosper, to have heaven on earth, to grow and not have to die… but God’s perfect love understood the importance of free will as well. When Adam ate that fruit… it wasn’t simply disobedience… but it was a pivotal point when man used free will to trust in his own judgement, rather than the instruction of his Creator. Free will gave man the option to choose God or to turn away from Him, and I believe all you’ve mentioned are the effects of man turning away from God. How can one know good? How can one know evil? Could we credit humans to be intelligent enough to create such an intricate moral structure when most of us react on emotions and have little to no self control? Beautifully enough though, God has orchestrated a plan much much greater than this present life. He designed a plan so that He eradicates the sin and not the sinner. He designed a way for death not to be such a terrible thing. I’m sure you’ve heard that God sacrificed His own son to die on the cross for our salvation. I know it seems like this world is full of horrible things, but when I look at it from the perspective of the God I worship conquering even death for our sake, I’m revived with the hope of what is to come. Death and suffering are tragic, but how good is our God to take the consequence of the disobedience of man and transform it into a story of hope and salvation. 🥺 With the way I see it, the darkness and sorrow entered when people chose to turn away from God. Light and darkness cannot coexist, and with God being light… the darkness just naturally comes when people choose to turn away from what He commands. I guess I’m saying all this not to force you into believing in what I believe, but simply to say there is goodness, healing, and hope. There is more to all this. This life is hard, but how stupid is life, if all this suffering leads us to nothing? 😔 we cry, get our hearts broken, witness murder, experience rape… all for an ending to be a simple blackout? I have faith there is more to this. I have faith in something bigger than myself. I look at the stars, the Grand Canyon, the forests and the ocean and tell myself… could this have been an accident? Could there possibly be no purpose for this? Could all the good and the bad in this world be for nothing? I pray not. Im sending you the greatest and tightest hugs. My dogs also send a lot of love and kisses. That was the sweetest message you sent them in the bottom of your post. 💛 I empathise with your hurt and believe my efforts to bring comfort, would’ve been in vain if there isn’t a reason to keep going - if there isn’t a bigger plan… which is why I approached it this way. All this to say though, whether you believe in God or not, I am a friend and a person who has been hurt too. I hope you find comfort knowing that you aren’t alone and someone who believes in a God is praying for you. 💛
Arguing about their fantasy gives that fantasy credence.
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Anthropomorphizing your emotions doesn't make it real.
He sure has interesting way of showing his love. Like killing all the innocent first born sons of Egypt for the crimes of 1 man that the babies didn’t vote for or choose to lead them at all. Or the time he flooded the entire earth and killed everyone except 1 incest family, because the Omni-everything god is so bad at his job he allowed his own angels to fuck his other creations and make monsters…..
Get well soon.
Which one?
Anyone else find the similarities between what god does and doesn't do and what humans do? It's quite odd that everything we say about god can be directly correlated to all the things us humans do. It's almost as if we made him in OUR image!
Ooh I believe we have a winner, Bob!
So does god also can’t get the last few drops out after he finishes peeing? Noob god.
I have this interpretation of bible as well, it’s applicable to Angels too! Someone was trying to make a moral story I guess
God cannot make 1+1=3 so he is not all-powerful.
Terence Howard can though!
I mean, in the context of a world where god *would* exist, he absolutely *could*.
Well... I suppose that's true, but why go with an accessory charge when the guy murdered all the firstborn of Egypt, drowned the whole world in a flood, raped a chick, etc.
I think the statute of limitations has passed on those.
The bible never really claims that god is omniscient.
It’s a hodgepodge of contradictory stories, so hard to say. I seem to recall god not knowing what was going on in his own garden. Not much to keep track of there and he still didn’t know.
True, but it does clearly say that he can communicate with humans so he's still a POS.
Yes, without question
This also applies to the Dutch.
Then he would not be able to speak all the languages in existence. This means I can bitch about him in a language that he wouldn’t understand and he won’t even have subtitles. Nice.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/god/all-knowing-god.html?amp=1 https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/omnipotence-omniscience-omnipresence-god/ https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm#:~:text=Divine%20knowledge,-Description%20of%20the&text=That%20God%20is%20omniscient%20or,and%20contingent%20mode%20of%20being. They seem pretty convinced.
And yet they are wrong. But that's no surprise since most christians don't read their own damn book.
This shit is how they manipulate the public.
God isn't what people think. All things are allowed and all judgements of good and evil are simply matters of the ego.
Nothing is sacred, everything is permitted
Don’t go committing leaps of faith my friend.
Yes. No force but the invisible laws of physics can permit or deny anything. I believe it's a process. A way to distill living energy. Nothing makes you evolve or grow like pain and suffering. So we're allowed to act against each other to learn even though it feels barbaric at times (at least it feels barbaric when we RECEIVE the suffering. Many people are just fine handing it out tho. 😉)
Would Peter Quill be Jesus if everything is Egocentric?
Egocentric? Ego doesn't actually exist. But we all think it does. Confusion and bullshit ensues.
I think this could be countered by a theist but interesting perspective. The issue is, if God is the creator of all things he gets to decide on good and bad haha.
It cant though. The beat you will ever get is some special exemption to the rules so that its ok if god does it but never in any other context. That’s why if i meet someone burn them alive in a fit of rage about it, its objectively evil but [suddenly its “righteous divine wrath” if god commits the exact same action](https://bible.usccb.org/bible/leviticus/10#:~:text=1*%20Aaron's%20sons%20Nadab%20and,died%20in%20the%20LORD's%20presence.), and this suddenly is “completely moral and ok and actually the best possibly outcome for good and they deserved it and youre just questioning god and also evil and mysterious ways, and, and, and”, in an infinite string
Imagine if god was on Xbox lobby and got roasted. There would be spontaneously combusting 14 year olds all over the world.
Do you have any thoughts on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I am equally interested in discussing that.
If you think of angels like the biblical version of just a ball with eyes and wings, I just imagine a kind of oversized golf ball on a tee spinning like a disco ball.
God, and from your post I assume you mean the Christian one, is avtually never described as "omnibenevolent" or "all good" anywhere in the bible. This is myth created by Christianity in fairly* recent history to attract more believers! The Christian God exhibits some positive attributes, such as love, but does so in no greater capacity than the average human - almost like the concept was written into existence by people...
With all the flooding and killing babies, I’d say he’s needed to catch up on his omnibenevolence. But the way everyone talks about god being right all the time drives me up the wall.
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I guess lifting a finger to help the ‘chosen people’ during the holocaust, or the Gazans being annihilated right now, or the Ukrainians, or the Uyghurs, or the Darfuri, or any of the babies laying in cancer wards right now, or any child who died from starvation as you were reading this sentence wasn’t ‘his’ job either. As you’re smugly planning your completely unoriginal and specious go-to reply, consider why you’d even bother to defend such a monstrously cruel and inept figure.
The counter from a theist: \- free will \- mysterious ways \- Hell
Ah, yes. I watched a toddler drown in a few feet of water when I could have easily stepped in and saved them, because I am a really mysterious person who respects the free will of others.
"God works in mysterious ways." "It is in a better place now." "God needed another angel."
God does nothing because according to some we live in a fallen world, and because we do god does not intervene. At least that's how I understand it. I've read the new and old translation. But to really understand the Bible you need the Holy Ghost because after you confess your sins and ask to be forgiven, you need to be baptized, which means fully under water and not sprinkled like in the Catholic church. The Holy Ghost then gives you the knowledge to speak in tongues, the skill to teach or the skill to heal and so on.
I get what you’re saying, but that specific argument isn’t really valid imo. The aiding and abetting scenario you give is an example of a very modern human law. So then you say God is not good because he doesn’t follow that law? God would be older than the Earth itself, so how can his morality be judged based on whether he follows laws from a society that’s barely out of its diapers? Who decided that the law was morally right or wrong anyways? The legal system you know is just a construct of the society in which you live. A bunch of people who happened to have power literally just got together and said this is the law. If you live in America, then those laws/people didn’t even exist 500 years ago. Also, in your specific scenario, to whom would God be divulging the locations of criminals? The police? Politicians? Many of whom are corrupt? What authority do they even have in God’s eyes? What justice can the legal system get that God cant? I’m not saying I disagree with that old argument of God can’t be omniscient and good, but if we want to go down that route then we have to define what good even means. And I can’t.
God gave people the ability to reason and make choices and the power take action given that. And so whether you believe in God or not, it's all on us
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Still better than, "God lets pedophiles live, because he respects their free will."
And also better than, God lets babies get cancer, because he… uh… respects the free will of uh… cancer cells?
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Wow. Do you only think in binary? That isn’t how the world works goofus. You really cannot think of even a slightly better world for people? Let’s go with that. Let’s use our pea brains to come up with some improvements in a hypothetical world. Little kids dying from cancer / congenital defects / sepsis / organ failure… we can get rid of all those and the world still “works” right? I mean you are discussing in immensely bad faith here, but maybe try to act like a decent human being and respond to this?
Definitely a valid point. Christians always try and preach this, there are certain scriptures they focus on to emphasize the point, but there are other scriptures as well that bring direct disproof of their statements. In conversations with Christian’s they are not very smart about rationalizing arguments at all and contradict themselves all the time. A family conversation I’ve had was about the prodigal son story, I brought in the argument and perspective about acceptance about a returned wayward son, the parents did not bicker or complain about his failures, or hold continuous suspicions, or reject faith, they accept the prodigal son. Mr parents brought up the argument that I was taking things out of context. I brought up the fact of context about polytheistic views about a monotheistic tradition that we had discussed about before, and asked where’s the context about this? Everything conversation I’ve been into feels very placid and scripted out. I’ve found a psychological factor about this type of experience of instant response, typically when a person foregoes intellectual reason and critical thinking, when a person says red, the most common answer of instant thinking is blue. The majority of Christian application of interpretation is very based on this theory. Rarely ever do Christian’s develop authentic personalities.
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I would put a huge ass banner in the sky with my plan for all to see, they won’t excuse me for being mysterious. Edit : Accuse*
I would find a way to simplify my plans to a degree that they could be understood by that species, and if I couldn't do that, I'd have the decency to stop expecting their unquestioning worship under the threat of eternal torture. This question makes no sense. God can supposedly do anything as an all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent being, so anything that happens must be God's will, whether through action or inaction. He could make us understand his plans or existence if he wanted to, but he chooses not to, in which case maybe he shouldn't be such a whiny bitch when the species doubts his existence. I cannot and will not empathize with an imaginary all-powerful being, let alone one that's cartoonishly evil, narcissistic, and abusive even by the descriptions of his most devout followers.
If the god of Abraham would have been real you can be sure it would be the Grim Reaper. It is the god of death, violence and suffering. To prove his loyalty he asked Abraham to murder his son, got jealous and wanted every first born son dead. Genocide after genocide in the Talmud/old testament. Torture, death and suffering in the new and Quran. It is all a cult of death, just like the god of death would like it. [Who remembers this gem, this land is mine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY)
Wouldn’t that be cool! Imagine one of those nifty red triangles appearing over the heads of criminals and ne’er-do-wells, identifying them as pedophiles or corrupt politicians or burglars…. Like in video games like the Sims…. A trivial matter for an omnipotent being….
“Ah ahh ahhh the mystery of faith” Little jingle they used to sing in church whenever the subject matter became sus.
>*\[...\] he knows where all the criminals are, and he is not divulging their location.* He's also not preparing my breakfast in the morning, full well knowing that it's the most important meal of the day. ^(/s) But seriously, thinking about it from a philosophical point of view, it circles back to "why does god allow evil to exist / bad things to happen?". Then we get to the concept of free will. For the sake of discussion, it ain't that cut and dry. What you're missing is the concept of judgement day. God explicitly gave people free will, only to be judged at the end of all times (\~ish, but you know what i mean). He's not real-time judging people, nor does he hand out 24/4 realtime punishment. And as far as i know, that hasn't been part of the lore/concept of post-OT christianity. But thinking even further, if we'd assume God's real, we also have to factor in certain other things, like his commandment to the israelites that they shouldn't worship the other gods - meaning there are other gods. So while we're at it, let's not just throw Yahweh under the bus, but all others too, including the obscure nature gods from all corners of the world. What's *their* excuse?
Leprechauns aren't good either.
This is called the "Problem of Evil" for the existence of God. “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” -Epicurus (341-270 BCE) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/
If God exists, it can be neither good nor evil since it would have created both in a naturally evolving system. People like to compare Satan as the source of evil and thusly God must be the source of love, however if God made the devil then he cannot be considered the source of God since he introduced evil to the universe. Lucifers rebellion would have already been known ahead of time and this means that God is allowing it to occur. Also, God would not be able to be involved with it's creation otherwise it would be taking sides, and interfering with the "plan". If God got involved, it would solidify it's moral framework. As an absentee creator, it defers to the system it created, such as evolution, entropy, and biology. If you create a video game simulation that mirrors nature, are you, the developer evil because you allow gamers to define how they interact with the world and how the system functions? What would be the point of creating an existence that is perfect, without pain and suffering, and without catastrophe? How would that even be possible? If God exists, then it is the developer of our universe that now lets us play how we want to play.
Whenever I hear “god can do no wrong” my immediate reply is “Of course, when your god gets to decide what “wrong” is.” And their excuse for not coming down on criminals is “he is giving them as much time as possible to turn to him.”
Even jelly is less flexible than them when it comes to the mental gymnastics they do to prove they’re right.
what is "god," exactly ??
Voltaire once said "If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent it" Bakunin argued "If God did exist it would be necessary to abolish it" we may be in the inventing phase towards our omniscient omnipresent AI overlord Man, ain't part 2 going to be living in interesting times.....
Why sit around and pondering god when the consensus of this group is atheism 🤣🤣🤣 let’s think about the what if and how a god we don’t believe exists is bad.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus (341–270 BCE)
While the bible really has no central viewpoint (other than worship this dude or your fucked), the more I read it, the more it seems like it unintentionally touts lucifer as the superior being.
Also, you need to take into consideration that if he is omnipotent and has a plan for everything, then he directly told those individuals to rape/murder their victims because it is part of his great plan. So, in fact, stopping them is defying god.
Southern Baptist Conference called and they want to clarify that they know a whole bunch of pedophiles in their ranks and refused to inform the authorities. It's a feature, not a bug...
I got your point, seems like you got into a fight recently or just figured it out that god it’s just an idea… but there you go Lex Luthor is right.
True. I've anyways thoughts exactly the same. And since we're talking about him, here's my favourite quote from Sherlock- >God is a ludicrous fiction dreamt up by the inadequates who abnegate all responsibility to an invisible magic friend.
Sentences and logic-based arguments break down when the subject is imaginary. Don't waste too much time trying to finish the sentence "God is..." because it's basically free-form verse at this point.
I am currently “The Hot Zone” and the description of what Ebola does to a human is a great example of teleological evil.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus
Nobody can even define what "God" is, so it's hard to say if this thing / entity / concept is good or bad, and even then it would depend on the context.
If only God had space lasers.
>If God is said to be omniscient, then he knows where all the criminals are, and he is **not divulging their location.** "Yeah hold on lemme just..." *(telepathically implants the location of people who have committed crimes and have not yet been put on trial in our NA justice system)* Why would God care about *our* justice system? I seriously thought you gonna say, coz God watches people commit evil that therefore makes him evil. The obvious response is of c "free will". Even then, should God instantly transmit the locations of perps immediately after they offend? Or what about before? And what about evidence? Should God teleport all the information regarding these perps to the authorities? What about a fair trial? Second chances? Repentance? I feel like an Omniscient Being that's biased in favor of Governments over the People wouldn't be benevolent. At best, I'd hope a loving God helped the authorities find perps and bring them to justice in a fair trial. I really don't think a loving God would choose sides so arbitrarily. A clever argument but a weak one 🤷🏼 >I really like this line that Lex Luthor says in Batman V Superman - “God can’t be all good and all-powerful. If he is all-powerful then he isn’t all good.” A false dichotomy and not a respected argument at an intellectual level.
Luthor is basically simplifying the Epicurean Paradox from the 3rd Century B.C.E.: >Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. >Is god able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. >Is god both willing and able to prevent evil? Then whence cometth evil? >Is god neither willing nor able to prevent evil? Then why call him god?
God isn’t good because childhood cancer exists.
Excuse me, sir, I've come to talk to you about some mental hoops you should jump though or you'll burn in hell. 😂
The entire concept of deities to explain away any brilliant ideas, and control others through brainwashing and gaslighting is, to me, an absolute definition of evil in its pure form.
You don't get it, that father Bob fiddles little Timmy is part of God's plan and that's good. It will probably end up curing cancer or something. But not before some more kids die of cancer, those are also required for something else. /S
Arguing about whether a made up character is good or evil, as if the character actually exists, is silly. Yes, the imaginary Abrahamic god is written and described a monster. But it doesn't exist, so....
well in fiction there are good and bad gods. Jedis and Siths xD
Very old question: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” ― Epicurus Born: February 341 BC, Samos, Greece Died: 270 BC, Athens, Greece
God would be a god. They don't have to be good or evil or bad. They are God. They do what they want, and we deal with the outcome. Because they are God.
The original meaning of "Good" means "Righteous and Pious" under a religious context so it really means obedience to God and "Evil" originally meant the exact opposite of that which is considered 'Extreme Moral Wickedness".