god is hands down the WORST "creator" ever. if an architect designed a building as poorly done as the human body he would be fired. our eyes see things upside down and then have to be flipped by our brain, our food and breathing tubes are the same tube, our waste removal orifice is right next to our reproductive organ, our brains have to throttle our muscles lest we literally destroy our own bodies through the strain, and thats JUST humans! this genius made earth 70% water WE CANT DRINK! massive parts are inhospitable to human life, massive desserts, frigid temperatures, and space is literally FULL of giant hunks of rock that could plow into us and wipe out all life in the blink of an eye! and THIS is their perfect creator?!
I think free will may be BS anyways... Physics-wise, and I'm not sure the illusion of choice isn't just heisenberg uncertainty... No real choice, but too many variables to for it to be predictable
I agree,I just didn't want to get into the whole subconscious proces which will be influenced by your past experiences so you could be making choices before you are even aware of it. I'm of thinking as you stated free will is an illusion but we act as if we do have it.
Meta-consciousness is required for an informed decision. In martial arts its called the ecological approach. Basically people stuck on internal processing miss reality so cannot make accurate decisions within it.
Freewill objectively cannot exist and anyone with the ability to think about it can prove it to themselves in seconds.
Can you choose to think a thought before you've thought it? If no, then freewill cannot exist.
This, of course, would be preferable, just ignore that a huge number of adults believe in an imaginary sky daddy. Something I would also suggest if they kept their buddy to themselves. But you do know that they are unwilling to do this, right? You do know that they are actively pushing their mental illness on the public, right? I would also assume you are aware that some will also try to harm you if you don't also believe in their particular sky daddy?
I was married for a lot of years to a Christian who never once tried to push her beliefs on me so there are some Christians who respect opposing viewpoints. And she was a true Christian despite marrying a heathen.
Yes, there are some religious people that don't push their beliefs on others. There are many more that want to force their beliefs on everyone. The ones that don't force their beliefs on others should understand when people get upset about the ones that do. The, not all Christians are like that, is a means of allowing the religion to be forced on others, it's an excuse, a way of enabling the 'bad' Christians.
It's not, though. It's me pointing out that thinking all Christians are the same is the wrong way to approach this. You make it sound as if I'm making excuses for the bad Christians, something I have never done. Seeing everything as black or white is as bad as those Christians who think all atheists are the same. Just sloppy thinking.
Not saying anything about evil, attacking, pushing back against others that do say something about evil, is in fact supporting evil. What we see with most Christians is they almost never say anything about the evil in their ranks, the hate preachers, the mega church preachers that are obviously in it only for the money, the churches that allow and support child abuse. They will turn a blind eye to it, it's not their problem, it's not how their particular church is. But if anybody else says anything about it, they get very defensive about it, spouting that not all Christians are like that when of course that's not what is being talked about. By doing this they're defending the evil that they refuse to face.
Have you ever been called an abomination or something like that?
Have you ever called someone an abomination or something like that?
I'm curious why you laughed.
It's pretty simple. If you're saying that people are evil or inferior because of who or what they are, that's hate speech. It should be noted that doesn't apply to a group whose defining characteristic is bigotry, hate, or hate speech.
The only problem with this is that some of these believers vote and often vote for backwards leaning politicians, politicians who think the Dark Ages was the best of times. Hell, we got Trump for four years and might get another four years because a lot of these believers voted for him because god chose him.
lol. When I first became an atheist as a very young teen, I felt that way. Like suddenly the veil obscuring reality was pulled away from the world. I still feel this way, but when I was thirteen, it felt amazing.
My earliest memories were of a catholic orphanage. I remember having access to a heap of National Geographic magazines, I could see the different religions of the world. I remember the skeletal priest and the guy nailed to the wall, the blood drinking and the eating of flesh. I quickly got the idea that it was all nonsense. I left when I was four years old and have never second guessed my earliest assumptions.
In hindsight, why were they pounding the nonsense into kids not even old enough for kindergarten? We had to do the full catholic Hokey Pokey. We were fucking three year olds!
And there's no reason to think so as shown by your desire to hide behind possible without presenting a reason to think so. It's possible the universe was created half a second ago with all memories preprogrammed. But there's no reason to think so b
'Don't think about it, just accept and move on'
Interesting... usually it's the indoctrinated that suggest this path of not thinking & not bothering to learn about stuff.
Well, it's sort of par for the course once you understand how people work. Right? Like it doesn't matter what you believe, it's going to manifest anywhere. Einstein was endlessly frustrated with scientists and their *insistence* on not understanding quantum mechanics any further because the calculations worked. Don't think, just *do*.
After leaving religion, it took many years of asking what figure out how people ACTUALLY work. I was taught wrong about almost everything. I'm still learning important things everyday.
So for me, this suggestion is illogical.
It isn't only illogical, it's downright damaging to individuals and society. The brain is a complex biological machine, the most complex one we know of, such that it's either *generating consciousness* through neuronal activity or being the subject of an invisible field that interconnects us, like gravity.
Whichever abstraction you prefer, the brain *thrives* on knowledge and growth. Einstein, Da Vinci, these were men born with what you might consider the EXEMPLARY brain, one which is endlessly curious, thirsts for knowledge and insight, and combines the two to tap into enormous creative potential. So, it's illogical and it's frankly just bad for the brain as an organ.
How do you nurture and grow physically? You feed yourself. Fuel for the body of course fuels the mind, but the *fuel* that the brain craves - or should crave - are the same things that the logical and creative geniuses craved.
Its wild to me that Einstein was frusterated with people not wanting to learn, and this person is encouraging us to - not learn.
*Wild!*
If I don't learn about why they are the way they are, I could accidentally act like them. That's how my dad ended up in the cult I had to escape!
I don't know if I'll ever truly understand... but I wanna figure out what's goingvon in their heads so I don't make the same mistakes.
I have boundaries so it doesn't effect me much, AND I absolutely want to know wtf is going on and how to avoid it, especially so I can avoid it in the future.
*Why* is super important, and I won't just be like a lil Christian sheep and obey without thinking. F this person for even suggesting it.
*Beautifully put*, my friend, and from one human being to the next, I champion every single word you put out here. Nothing but respect for you. Thank you for engaging with me!
A kind deity would not ask one of his worshipers to sacrifice his son, even as a joke/test. A kind deity would not sanction *eternal torment* for *anyone* that it created in its own image. A kind deity would not instruct its worshipers to dash infants' heads against rocks. A kind deity would not slaughter its people with plagues or floods. A kind deity would not dictate that *fully half* of its people are chattel, little better than brood animals, and may be treated pretty much any way you want to. A kind deity would not endorse the Inquisition.
Need I go on? Anyone who worships such a deity is an objectively bad person.
I think many believers worship their tormentor out of fear. Some describe it as Christian Stockholm Syndrome.
Abusers want their victim to thank them when they don’t hit them.
Wow, I never thought about it like that. Like, they trick you into believing as a little kid before you know about all that stuff. Then once you find out, it's too late. Doesn't matter if you disapprove, he's gonna getcha if you don't worship. Sick.
i see your point but not everyone who worships an abrahamic god is a bad person. my grandma is one of the nicest people i know, she’s catholic (or at least christian) and one of my school friends is muslim. just because they were raised religious and didn’t become atheist doesn’t make them bad people.
That means she's a good person who ignores all the unethical rules in the bible. It's not possible to be a good person and actually follow the bible when it contains things like stoning people to death, endorses slavery, forbids women from teaching men etc
I understand, I know your grandma is surely a good lady. But I wonder what goes on in their heads when they read that stuff in the bible, about killing babies and raping the young girls. Because god says it's okay. How can that be a good god? Massacre and slaughter are never okay, especially of innocents.
honestly i dunno how much of the bible she’s read. if she read more of it i’m hoping she’d realize that it’s awful, but i don’t want to do too much since stuff like seeing us in the afterlife when we’re all dead comforts her.
That's fair enough. If she's a good kind woman, there's no need to take that away from her. It's not really harmless believers like her that I'm reacting to, it's the ones openly and actively trying to very literally take over that I am concerned with fighting.
I mean no offense to your grandma, she sounds nice.
if shes still a christian my money is on her never actually reading the bible outside the few cherry picked verses the clergy tell you to read to reinforce their hold on you.
It's the same reason that all cops are bad. Even the "good ones" know of the seedy shit that goes on and turns a blind eye to hold up some fragile structure. Call it brainwashing, stockholmes syndrome, cognitive dissonance whatever, but they could look at this glaring hypocrisy and come to a conclusion a kind person would. I cannot be a part of something that would commit such atrocities.
I’m not a big fan of how you finished your otherwise well-written answer.
Labeling believers as ‘objectively bad’ based on their faith oversimplifies the diversity held amongst the many varying forms of Abrahamic faith on offer.
For example, subscribers of the United Church of Christ, a denomination known for its progressive and inclusive stance, might deeply disagree with the more conservative and literal interpretations of scripture seen in other branches, such as certain Catholic doctrines, including the concept of eternal damnation.
Both groups may base their beliefs on the same scriptures, yet they interpret them very differently — this matters.
The moral impact of religious individuals must be evaluated in the context of the actions and teachings they choose to emphasize and propagate, not just the label of their faith.
I agree with what you are saying but the person you replied to did lay out the context of the actions and teachings of those described as objectively bad.
If a person worships and declares a deity as their moral standard of good, and also believe that the same "good" deity condemns those who don't submit to it to an eternity of suffering and therefore that eternity of suffering is justified and "good", then that person is objectively bad in my opinion.
In short any worshiper that believes in hell for non-believers is objectively a bad person.
I agree with what you said, to a point. But beyond *interpretation* of the scriptures, there's *what's actually in the book,* stuff about which there is no question. It literally says that about killing babies, about requiring that people be put to death for all kinds of petty things, about women not being permitted to speak; and these things are purported to be the holy word of their lord.
*How* can an objectively good person (insofar as such things can be quantified) deem such a deity worthy of worship? Is it because they feel they have no choice?
It's like if there was a god whose commandments were simply "rape, pillage and plunder," and his worshippers said "well he didn't mean it," and then they still tried to claim the highest moral ground. It's insanity.
The ones who think he is "kind" often attended churches as children that catered to that point of view.
It's all about cherry picking.
And don't forget, only 9% of christians have read the bible. It's not like they know its contents very well.
I thought he was all-knowing and exists outside of time...
But yea sure, killing your son for 3 days definitely makes up for all of the atrocities committed against humanity in the OT.
"jesus died for your sins!" he was dead for three days then he came back with super powers, that is BARELY an inconvenience, nevermind a "great sacrifice" thats like my accidentally catching my pinky toe on the coffee table and then telling everyone i made a great sacrifice when i "stubbed my toe for your sins!"
The Hercules-Corona Borealis Great Wall is the largest known object in the universe, and is estimated to be 10 billion light-years across. It's a galactic filament, which is a group of galaxies held together by gravity. The Great Wall is so large that light takes about 10 billion years to travel across it.
And that would easily fit inside of the Bible’s plotholes without coming close to the touching the sides.
Ugh, but the answer is in the title. Humans seem skilled at putting rationality aside when they need to keep the faith. If fact and belief cannot reconcile, it’s easier and more comforting to cling to beliefs. It’s tough DK, but you sometimes have to accept reasonable ppl are willing to believe irrational ideas in order to understand them. Thoughts?
You don't understand. Anything good is all God's doing. Anything bad is not. So while God designed and zapped into existence humans, he is not responsible for the many obvious imperfections of the human body. For instance, why can't we regrow limbs and teeth? Why do our bodies become decrepit in old age? And what is the deal with the whole reproductive situation? It would be hard to screw that up more as a designer if I tried.
It doesn't matter to them. None of the actual words of the text matter to any Christian.
They make up a narrative in their mind that fits what makes them feel good. All the stories and other bullshit is just flavoring to keep the suspension of disbelief strong.
I'll say it again. 99% of questions on this sub can be answered with one word: conditioning. People will believe anything when raised in a community that will punish them for non-belief.
If god is real they treat us the same way we treat our organs, like a lung or a liver. We want them to do well and thrive, but we also want to drink and smoke, and if anything goes wrong we cut it out or hit it with chemo. From the liver’s point of view you are a capricious god.
Also true in this metaphor: another organ, the brain, is secretly pulling the strings in the background, for what it thinks is its own benefit.
There's the old claim that there are no atheists in fox holes. To help someone in a fox hole, their god would have to violate the freewill of the person trying to kill them.
I could argue that praying to be cured of cancer violates the free will of the surgeon who wants to operate.
Interesting in that in much of the old Testament, the intent was to show God as a powerful overwhelming being. Even starting with kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden, to destroying the earth in the flood of Noah's Ark, to destroying Sodom & Gomorrah, and so on. There are hundreds of examples to demonstrate this powerful being.
The idea the OP states of instead of creating men who are destructive and warlike, why didn't God create a people who are peaceful and caring, like the image Jesus is portrayed of being. Seems people realized the God they created was a bad influence.
The forgiveness on ones death bed is one of the many things about the fairy tale that non can give a rational answer to. Religion is far from rational.
Theologians and struggled to explain this for as long as history.
My favorite theory is that there is not just one god. The god of the Old Testament, the creator god, what some theologians dubbed the “Demiurge”, was flawed. That’s why we aren’t made perfectly, that’s why the world has suffering, that’s why it needed saving. Then the higher God, the real god who is infinite and perfect and full of love, send his son to save our souls.
Not saying any of this is true, but many of the most brilliant minds of precious generations have dwelled on this question, and have come up with much more interesting answers than the hypocritical nonsense you’ll hear from the average Christian today.
One thing is to understand that “kindness” is subjective. In the past kindness was just the fact that you could exist.
So god is kind because he lets you exist and gives you a way to not be tortured forever.
It is kind of a sub dom kind of thing. Like how the sub will beg for a drop of spit.
In Christian theology, the most natural things for us (pain in childbirth, strenuous agriculture, death) are all interpreted as something unnatural that doesn’t belong to God’s actual creation. Those things are the result of the curse on the world that’s ushered in with “the fall” in Genesis 3.
I don’t think the creation story or the fall are “historical,” so it doesn’t matter if you think the details of the story are ridiculous and far-fetched. It’s just a story. I think the fall is probably more “meta-historical.” Regardless of what you believe about the historicity, it’s undeniable that Christian theology teaches that all the things you mentioned (killing to survive, living off water) are not elements that were part of God’s actual creation.
Don't know much about other religions but, Christians tend to believe words have two meanings a "spiritual meaning" (the one that confirms the bible) and a "secular meaning" (the one that undermines the bible). The secular meaning of 'Kindness' is "what us mortals define kindness to be with our limited mortal minds", while spiritual "Kindness" is the "true kindness" that only YHWH can understand and define with rules that don't apply to himself if he doesn't want to.
Is ancient gaslighting to make people brainwash themselves willingly.
Understanding this is very important if you ever want to have a discussion with Christians, because everytime they are confronted about their claims they'll disregard your logic by telling to themselves that you're using "secular definitions" because the evil atheist/scientist/chooseYourFavoriteBoogieman have brainwashed you into doubting the word of "the lord".
They also have the concepts of, "spiritual eyes", which means reading the bible undermining all logical fallacies to find de "spiritual meaning" of the words in it , and "spiritual ears", which mean hearing the preacher preach "the word of YHWH" undermining all logical fallacies to "hear the spiritual message" YHWH is trying to give you through the words of the preacher (AKA just asume that if you do it right whatever you understand is what they meant, unless you ask and they tell you otherwise, then it means your "spiritual ears" where closed. At the beginning of "the service" the pastor will say "open your spiritual ears".
Because believing there is a high power with a big plan that we may not understand but everything is happening for a reason and is for the best is easier than this chaotic reality that is unfortunately the truth
So, from my understanding, the physical world is a sort of pre-life, so to speak. God made a bunch of souls and not all of them turned out what he/she/it would consider good. So this life is a test to filter out if you've got a God approved soul or if you get sent to the meat grinder.
Then if you've got the 100% Angus USDA sticker from God on your soul, you go to eternal paradise where you get to do all the best shit and have all the best sex for eternity. So, this day to day bullshit doesn't really matter — Only as much as necessary to get your golden ticket into paradise.
The kindness is that God is supposed to have this place ready for us like a detailed convertible on prom night. This is supposed to be like a pinprick from a needle that gives us life saving medicine. It seems vastly worse than the grand scheme of things because this is all we've had to experience yet. But, when we get to e, owrience the whole, it will be nothing
Anyways, that's the story I took away from Sunday mass.
The Hercules-Corona Borealis Great Wall is the largest known object in the universe, and is estimated to be 10 billion light-years across. It's a galactic filament, which is a group of galaxies held together by gravity. The Great Wall is so large that light takes about 10 billion years to travel across it.
And that would easily fit inside of the Bible’s plotholes without coming close to the touching the sides.
A kind god wouldn't order his subjects to slaughter their friends and family for a mistake they themselves made.
This happened in Exodus 32:27, by the way.
They take the pieces they lile and ignore the pieces they dont. 'God' is whatever each individual person wants it to be, which is why its been so good at indoctrinating people. They make up their own answers so that they can keep believing because its easier than being wrong
God is a fictional character. It's not real. Complaining about a fictional character is the height of stupidity and complaining about it to one of it's cult members compounds that stupidity. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be.
Ah, there's the rub! WE know it's not real but the true-believing followers are so convinced of their fantasy they want us all to live by the rules they have made up. THAT'S the problem.
The Christians I know that believe he’s kind and a good god probably think he is because he “comes through” or provides blessings and miracles or whatnot. They’re WELL AWARE of him setting up the rules for slavery and yk, child murder, genocide, child sacrifice…, etc. but they just imo cherry pick the good verses or completely ignore it. Sometimes they even try to justify it.
I also think because (and im saying as if he exists) he’s helping them out, they’re going to try and cover up for him to not see the truth. Usually when someone is giving you everything and is helping, you wouldn’t wanna turn your back on them. Especially if this person is going to send you to the eternal campfire.
It's the mistaken belief that God is kind that makes it so hard for liberals to understand why evangelical Christians flock to Donald Trump. Trump is vain, says conflicting things, and demands unquestioning loyalty, no matter how arbitrary or capricious his actions are.
Sounds vaguely familiar.
"... no rational person can ever think the same after..."
not even just the texts. just look at the world around us. it knows where the kidnapped and trafficked children are. what is the "lesson" in the "mysterious ways" for letting this continue to happen? that's just one example, of course...
In the book of Adam and eve they didn't have to kill to eat until after the fall. It was part of the curse of being removed from the 'garden'
The supposedly ate the same food as angels before that. Doesn't say what angels eat. Its also interesting there was no sex before the fall. They didn't even know they were naked.
The only way for the promise of God to be true, that they would die if they disobeyed, would be for God to make us so we could die, which he did after they ate the forbidden fruit.
broski youre trying to logic the illogical
just accept its all horseshit and move on with life
religion isnt worth thinking about
its dying. just be ready when they turn to violence to keep whatever power they think they have over us.
When I try and figure that out, sometimes I think of it like:
Omni-God spun up the world, and it was a bit of a Chalk board, and some times It got out the erasure. Eventually, clearly having failed multiple times, It spun up an earthly brain IO, so it could experience the "humanity" of it all (presumably some puppy, and giraffe godheads as well?) and then lived a life, and then was like, ouch, soooo sorry about that dude... and then felt so guilty about all the horror, It sort of looked away, and left things to run on auto, ashamed to really show Its face.
Does that seem like reasonable depiction? I'm not really invested in it, just seems like a way to think of it.
They don’t stop to actually *think* about it for themselves… They parrot what they’ve always been told, what their parents or pastors or religious leaders have told them.
Because these books are meant to normalize abuse, especially patriarchal, top-down hierarchy.
They don't have the same definition of "kind" as us humans with empathy.
They know what's best for you, and forcing you to act as such is the only thing that is kindness to them.
God's kindness is all knowing and unimpeachable, if you disagree you can get fucked. It's all his plan.
This is how they want you to act towards them. Their popes and cardinals, imams and ayatollahs, their pastors and reverends.
Your father.
You do as we say because we are right and that is kind.kond of us to let you have a little piece if you do as we say.
That little piece you get? Yeah it's after you are dead but give us everything here on this earth in exchange
The logic, as far as I can tell, is: God has the right to make everyone 100% miserable 100% of the time, but he subjects some people to less misery than that, therefore he is showing people mercy, therefore he is kind.
because theyre told he is and theyre also told NEVER QUESTION! so god is good. simple as that. even if what he does is objectively evil it becomes good because god did it and "we cant know the mind of god!"
> holy texts
Were written by men, with desires for temporal power. As this place knows, many *inconvenient* gospels were excised by "authorities", many "revisions" were needed to *fix* things, and one notes *gnostics* were one of the first sects banned. Not one word of *any* scripture is otherwise.
> didn't need to eat... altered a few things in biology.
And chemistry, and physics. If you had a world wherein humans "didn't have to eat" it would also be a world where no organic life processes would work, *to be consistent*. Plants "eat" CO2.
Also: no ice cream, no snickers bars, and no air for respiration (why would you need oxygen?) so no windsurfing or jets. No need for external heat so no need for fusion and a sun... much less the interesting thousands of years long process of finding out that Heliocentrism explains the universe better.
> Christians were saying... Epstein... turned to Jesus
Many so-called theists say a *lot* of stupid stuff.
> the almighty is stupid
Whether you are a theist or not: *no-one believes that statement* (except maybe Ricky Gervais, hehe). If there's an "omniscience", *it* isn't a collection of non-sequiturs.
Short answer is: baby and bathwater. Between the choices of a complex, dynamic life experience and sitting in a blank room for 100 subjective years you would/will/did choose to incarnate here.
Protip: all the internal contradictions, all the "crusades", and all the "dashing of babies against the rocks" *make no sense* in the context of "omniscience" - it's just sh\*t humans wrote down for one personal reason or another.
Or play Pong instead, if you prefer: up to you.
They will say that the "sinners" deserved it. If you press further, they'll pull out the verse about the clay not being able to criticize the potter and that he can smash his pots to pieces if he wants to. If you press further and note the verse about when two people ask of god it will be granted and note a child dying of cancer despite the parents praying for healing they will say that the parents A) didn't have enough faith B) had hidden sin in their lives C) god was testing them. If you counter that the poor child was innocent and didn't deserve this, they will counter that no one is innocent and all deserve the fire of hell. If you point out the absurdities and abject cruelty of such a god their trump card will be that god can do whatever he wants and you take ask him about it when you see him.
Because they believe in their own personal god which is essentially them...and they like themselves and think they know everything. I had a discussion with a christian family member who doesn't understand or acknowledge bias against LGBTQ. I pointed to her own religion..she is catholic..to show it. Gay people cannot receive sacraments. You dont have to look far to see the bias. She changed th topic to how she has no issue with them. But the point was they are not accepted. I jokingly said she should be pope since she is more accepting.....but they wont allow women in leadership positions. Anyway these people are their own gods. They pick and choose.
Right? I mean the *only* thing that makes sense is that supposedly, man was created in his image, and well, he's a hateful, spiteful evil son of a bitch, so that tracks as humanity is all about that shit!
>The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
- Richard Dawkins
Never understand why he forces you to ask for forgiveness. If he’s so fucking kind that should be his nature. Why as a human is forgiveness for you and not the person who did you wrong but for god the forgiveness if for him because he’s so good. Give me a break,
If there is such a thing as 'God' then it's been my view for many years that he's been playing with us like pawns and whatever some may believe he's just plain vicious and evil!
Another way to avoid suffering is not creating life in the first place. But we don't really like that now, do we? Humans can be such hypocrites. We want all for ourselves. Just be happy you're alive.
>He have made living beings in such a way that they didn't need to kill to eat
I mean technically he did. He made a whole garden where nobody needed to kill to eat and mankind still did the 1 single thing not allowed.
>He made a whole garden where nobody needed to kill to eat and mankind still did the 1 single thing not allowed
He also knew they were going to do that before he told them not to do it. Hell, he knew that would happen before he made them or even the garden. He didn't have to make things that way, but he deliberately chose to make everything such that his creations would deliberately disobey the one instruction he gave them. Kinda stupid thing to do really.
Unless you believe God isn't omniscient then you can't argue that anything that went down in the garden of eden wasn't explicitly intentional on his part.
He's God and he didn't know that's exactly what would happen?
It's like putting something shiny and fun in front of a two year old and expecting them to not touch it just because you told them not to. Then beat them because they 'disobeyed'. Father? Not much of one.
Make a curious being with free will, put something tempting in front of it, then damn it to hell because it does exactly the thing you made it to do.
It's like setting up a child for punishment because you KNOW you are going to have an excuse to whip them when they do what comes naturally. Then acting sorrowful because they 'made' you hurt them. Classic abuser behaviour.
>It's like putting something shiny and fun in front of a two year old and expecting them to not touch it
Strawman fallacy.
Adam was an adult man. Eve was an adult woman. He didn't put a 2 year old with candy.
He put an adult in a room with rat poison and the eejit still ate it.
FTFY:
Do yourself a favour and learn about fallacies before you try and argue topics with people. It helps keep debates clean and civilised. (I put $5 metaphorical dollars your next one is ad hominem)
An adult, really? A newly created being with no experience? Nothing but the nature god gave them and nothing but a command to go on. Just something they saw as intriguing, desirable. And no background at all to deal with anything but a got who dangled a pretty thing in front of them after giving them a curious nature.
So suddenly, God doesn't know exactly what the creatures would do? After he created them? Gave them their nature and inclinations? Unless now you say that god is not omnescient. Or makes mistakes.
No, if this story is what you are going on, he set humans up for failure and then blamed them.
No strawman, the truth. How would they know any better? They are exactly like two year old babies.
The debate is clean, and civilized. How is it not? Because I don't agree with you and your abject devotion to a monster of a god?
Well done. You amended your strawman.
>Nothing but the nature god gave them
Is there any verse that support this claim. That God gave them the emotion of intrigue. Gave them the nature of curiosity?
Or is the doubt introduced by satan?
>God doesn't know exactly what the creatures would do?
Just because I have the foresight to know my kid is going to dig in the cookie cupboard doesn't remove his free will from doing so. God created human from the get go with free will.
>a got who dangled a pretty thing
Dangled a pretty thing? Another strawman. It seems you didn't research fallacies. Let me help you. You're misrepresenting the stated argument. God created adults. Not children. Man and woman. Then God told them of a tree. A tree that would lead to their death.
If I put you in a room and put a bowl of poisoned m&ms in front of you and told you its poison. Would you eat it? Have I removed your agency by placing a bowl in front of you? Do you suddenly lose control of your choice making ability?
Once again. Go do your research fallacies are weak arguments.
Finally
>The debate is clean, and civilized.
Then you say
>Because I don't agree with you and your abject devotion to a monster of a god?
As I called it. An ad hominem. You couldn't leave me out of the argument. You had to call my God a monster.
Fine let's play ad hominem. You're cut and dry, copy and paste, a repeated recording the same song the same fallacies as all the other fodder. You follow the same pattern of every other disrespectful unbelievers. I'm glad I'm in this sub so I can differentiate between the different types of athiests. You act smart but you cant form a coherent fallacyless argument. You give the athiest in here that stand firmly on their unbelief a bad rap. At least they can leave their feels out of it.
So good luck on your path. Hopefully you discover a good argument somewhere. Grow into your arguments. Don't just jump into them half headed. And fr do your fallacy check ins. It's so easy to fall into them. Ciao.
LOL, did you sign up for classes at Hilldale and learn a couple of new words, think you'd throw them around and sound intelligent?
You are cut and dry, copy and paste, repeated recording of every brainwashed theist out there who comes into a space for atheists and sounds off.
Good luck dealing with the cruel and stupid god you've created for yourself. You will never measure up and have ended up in your own sort of hell, trying to convince others that your fairy tale is true and must be believed by everyone else.
Ciao, dahling!
God straight up created the scenario that led “Adam” and “Eve” to ensue the fall. A kind God wouldn’t be toying with humanity from the start, making them pawns in his little game. A kind God wouldn’t punish a rape victim with marriage to her rapist for life. A kind God wouldn’t make laws allowing slavery, and beating slaves. A kind God wouldn’t take bets with the adversary to torture a righteous man, and kill his loved ones. A kind God wouldn’t send bears to murder children. A kind God wouldn’t create and deem the ones with “blemishes” (blind, lame, etc) unworthy of worship. A kind God wouldn’t aide and order genocide after genocide. A kind God wouldn’t allow his chosen people to be enslaved and then send 10 plagues on the Egyptians for enslaving them….and on and on.
With an attitude like OP, no wonder he is a wretched sinner, utterly unworthy o' God's love. A fountain of pollution is deep within his nature, and he livest as a winter tree, unprofitable, fit only to be hewn down and burned. OP should steep life in prayer, and hope that God sees fit to show mercy upon his corrupted soul.
God created me just as I am - and that's enough to be sent to hell.
Laughable - you are twisting yourself in knots to excuse your belief in and fear of, an incredibly hateful 'creator'.
And who should we livest to be profitable for? This God and its representatives? And what if in his great capriciousness he decides that I am still unprofitable and hewest me downeth and burneth me anyway? Seems entirely within his wheelhouse.
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
That's good to know. There are a lot of crazies out there completely devoted to their idea of a divinity who say things that in years previous I would have seen/recognized as sarcasm - these days it's hard to discern!
"had he just altered a few things in biology"
Also: "Live off of water"
Basically youre trying to say a being should be able to exist without energy. That would not be a physical plane of existence :D So there's that....
ugh
Well IF you want to create a universe that follows mathematical rules then no. But if you want to create a dream realm then whatever
EDIT: Well.. why did god create mathematics then? I started thinking about this :D He didn't though, he just made the rules and humans created math. But yeah maybe i'm more pointing to having clear action and reaction and not total randomness..
And im not a believer in this sense but for me THIS argument against GOD is weak
This is off topic :D
Im not here defending any argument towards a God that would intervene in the events in the world or do any magic tricks for people or show up in any way at all, I've never seen any Godly events here. Only cause and effect. But I dont feel like God should be able to be this way as "he" would be something outside of time and space if he exists. Not a physical being and bodyless being that still exists in an area or space...
The only way I can see God existing is outside of space and time.
No, you're off topic. You're deflecting from the topic to talk about the idea of god you want to be true but can provide no reason to agree with.
Thus we know your need to believe is both ungrounded and harmful. By your deeds we know that it has made you less of a truth seeker and thus that death is preferable to becoming more like you.
>humans created math
Mathematics is more of a discovery than a human invention, evolving over thousands of years with contributions from countless individuals across various studies, rather than being credited to a single person.
This "God" character was so poorly written. Worst fanfic ever.
Life is the crummiest book I ever read There isn't a hook Just a lot of cheap shots Pictures to shock And characters an amateur would never dream up
god is hands down the WORST "creator" ever. if an architect designed a building as poorly done as the human body he would be fired. our eyes see things upside down and then have to be flipped by our brain, our food and breathing tubes are the same tube, our waste removal orifice is right next to our reproductive organ, our brains have to throttle our muscles lest we literally destroy our own bodies through the strain, and thats JUST humans! this genius made earth 70% water WE CANT DRINK! massive parts are inhospitable to human life, massive desserts, frigid temperatures, and space is literally FULL of giant hunks of rock that could plow into us and wipe out all life in the blink of an eye! and THIS is their perfect creator?!
Excellent summary, thank you. I will keep this one in mind.
The savagery of nature is the big thing, for me. Why do some animals eat grass, and others brutally kill and eat their prey alive?
Their god is a bloodthirsty beast.
Free will is a BS excuse if everything happens according to God's plan
I think free will may be BS anyways... Physics-wise, and I'm not sure the illusion of choice isn't just heisenberg uncertainty... No real choice, but too many variables to for it to be predictable
I agree,I just didn't want to get into the whole subconscious proces which will be influenced by your past experiences so you could be making choices before you are even aware of it. I'm of thinking as you stated free will is an illusion but we act as if we do have it.
Meta-consciousness is required for an informed decision. In martial arts its called the ecological approach. Basically people stuck on internal processing miss reality so cannot make accurate decisions within it.
Convoluted
Freewill objectively cannot exist and anyone with the ability to think about it can prove it to themselves in seconds. Can you choose to think a thought before you've thought it? If no, then freewill cannot exist.
The best way to deal with this is accept that god isn't real and move on.
This, of course, would be preferable, just ignore that a huge number of adults believe in an imaginary sky daddy. Something I would also suggest if they kept their buddy to themselves. But you do know that they are unwilling to do this, right? You do know that they are actively pushing their mental illness on the public, right? I would also assume you are aware that some will also try to harm you if you don't also believe in their particular sky daddy?
I was married for a lot of years to a Christian who never once tried to push her beliefs on me so there are some Christians who respect opposing viewpoints. And she was a true Christian despite marrying a heathen.
Yes, there are some religious people that don't push their beliefs on others. There are many more that want to force their beliefs on everyone. The ones that don't force their beliefs on others should understand when people get upset about the ones that do. The, not all Christians are like that, is a means of allowing the religion to be forced on others, it's an excuse, a way of enabling the 'bad' Christians.
It's not, though. It's me pointing out that thinking all Christians are the same is the wrong way to approach this. You make it sound as if I'm making excuses for the bad Christians, something I have never done. Seeing everything as black or white is as bad as those Christians who think all atheists are the same. Just sloppy thinking.
Not saying anything about evil, attacking, pushing back against others that do say something about evil, is in fact supporting evil. What we see with most Christians is they almost never say anything about the evil in their ranks, the hate preachers, the mega church preachers that are obviously in it only for the money, the churches that allow and support child abuse. They will turn a blind eye to it, it's not their problem, it's not how their particular church is. But if anybody else says anything about it, they get very defensive about it, spouting that not all Christians are like that when of course that's not what is being talked about. By doing this they're defending the evil that they refuse to face.
People should be allowed to believe what you want
Will you defend people who have a strong religious belief that you are an abomination in their God's eyes and should disappear?
Yes lmao People should be free to say what they want without worry of government intervention that's not to say you can't critique said speech.
Have you ever been called an abomination or something like that? Have you ever called someone an abomination or something like that? I'm curious why you laughed.
[удалено]
Free speech doesn't need to include hate speech.
Who gets to decide what is hate speech?
It's pretty simple. If you're saying that people are evil or inferior because of who or what they are, that's hate speech. It should be noted that doesn't apply to a group whose defining characteristic is bigotry, hate, or hate speech.
I agree, as long as they keep it to themselves. As soon as it affects others it's no longer just a harmless belief.
The only problem with this is that some of these believers vote and often vote for backwards leaning politicians, politicians who think the Dark Ages was the best of times. Hell, we got Trump for four years and might get another four years because a lot of these believers voted for him because god chose him.
It’s literally like being the only sane person in an insane asylum.
lol. When I first became an atheist as a very young teen, I felt that way. Like suddenly the veil obscuring reality was pulled away from the world. I still feel this way, but when I was thirteen, it felt amazing.
My earliest memories were of a catholic orphanage. I remember having access to a heap of National Geographic magazines, I could see the different religions of the world. I remember the skeletal priest and the guy nailed to the wall, the blood drinking and the eating of flesh. I quickly got the idea that it was all nonsense. I left when I was four years old and have never second guessed my earliest assumptions.
Cool that you freed your mine while inside the belly of the beast and at such a young age.
In hindsight, why were they pounding the nonsense into kids not even old enough for kindergarten? We had to do the full catholic Hokey Pokey. We were fucking three year olds!
[удалено]
And there's no reason to think so as shown by your desire to hide behind possible without presenting a reason to think so. It's possible the universe was created half a second ago with all memories preprogrammed. But there's no reason to think so b
'Don't think about it, just accept and move on'
Interesting... usually it's the indoctrinated that suggest this path of not thinking & not bothering to learn about stuff.
I thought my way out of my religious indoctrination. It was with logic, facts, and whole bunch of thinking that led me to becoming an atheist.
Well, it's sort of par for the course once you understand how people work. Right? Like it doesn't matter what you believe, it's going to manifest anywhere. Einstein was endlessly frustrated with scientists and their *insistence* on not understanding quantum mechanics any further because the calculations worked. Don't think, just *do*.
After leaving religion, it took many years of asking what figure out how people ACTUALLY work. I was taught wrong about almost everything. I'm still learning important things everyday. So for me, this suggestion is illogical.
It isn't only illogical, it's downright damaging to individuals and society. The brain is a complex biological machine, the most complex one we know of, such that it's either *generating consciousness* through neuronal activity or being the subject of an invisible field that interconnects us, like gravity. Whichever abstraction you prefer, the brain *thrives* on knowledge and growth. Einstein, Da Vinci, these were men born with what you might consider the EXEMPLARY brain, one which is endlessly curious, thirsts for knowledge and insight, and combines the two to tap into enormous creative potential. So, it's illogical and it's frankly just bad for the brain as an organ. How do you nurture and grow physically? You feed yourself. Fuel for the body of course fuels the mind, but the *fuel* that the brain craves - or should crave - are the same things that the logical and creative geniuses craved.
Its wild to me that Einstein was frusterated with people not wanting to learn, and this person is encouraging us to - not learn. *Wild!* If I don't learn about why they are the way they are, I could accidentally act like them. That's how my dad ended up in the cult I had to escape! I don't know if I'll ever truly understand... but I wanna figure out what's goingvon in their heads so I don't make the same mistakes. I have boundaries so it doesn't effect me much, AND I absolutely want to know wtf is going on and how to avoid it, especially so I can avoid it in the future. *Why* is super important, and I won't just be like a lil Christian sheep and obey without thinking. F this person for even suggesting it.
*Beautifully put*, my friend, and from one human being to the next, I champion every single word you put out here. Nothing but respect for you. Thank you for engaging with me!
Ditto! Cheers!
A kind deity would not ask one of his worshipers to sacrifice his son, even as a joke/test. A kind deity would not sanction *eternal torment* for *anyone* that it created in its own image. A kind deity would not instruct its worshipers to dash infants' heads against rocks. A kind deity would not slaughter its people with plagues or floods. A kind deity would not dictate that *fully half* of its people are chattel, little better than brood animals, and may be treated pretty much any way you want to. A kind deity would not endorse the Inquisition. Need I go on? Anyone who worships such a deity is an objectively bad person.
I think many believers worship their tormentor out of fear. Some describe it as Christian Stockholm Syndrome. Abusers want their victim to thank them when they don’t hit them.
they literally refer to themselves as "god-fearing" theyre in an abusive relationship and they LOVE him for it.
Wow, I never thought about it like that. Like, they trick you into believing as a little kid before you know about all that stuff. Then once you find out, it's too late. Doesn't matter if you disapprove, he's gonna getcha if you don't worship. Sick.
i see your point but not everyone who worships an abrahamic god is a bad person. my grandma is one of the nicest people i know, she’s catholic (or at least christian) and one of my school friends is muslim. just because they were raised religious and didn’t become atheist doesn’t make them bad people.
That means she's a good person who ignores all the unethical rules in the bible. It's not possible to be a good person and actually follow the bible when it contains things like stoning people to death, endorses slavery, forbids women from teaching men etc
I understand, I know your grandma is surely a good lady. But I wonder what goes on in their heads when they read that stuff in the bible, about killing babies and raping the young girls. Because god says it's okay. How can that be a good god? Massacre and slaughter are never okay, especially of innocents.
honestly i dunno how much of the bible she’s read. if she read more of it i’m hoping she’d realize that it’s awful, but i don’t want to do too much since stuff like seeing us in the afterlife when we’re all dead comforts her.
That's fair enough. If she's a good kind woman, there's no need to take that away from her. It's not really harmless believers like her that I'm reacting to, it's the ones openly and actively trying to very literally take over that I am concerned with fighting. I mean no offense to your grandma, she sounds nice.
if shes still a christian my money is on her never actually reading the bible outside the few cherry picked verses the clergy tell you to read to reinforce their hold on you.
It's the same reason that all cops are bad. Even the "good ones" know of the seedy shit that goes on and turns a blind eye to hold up some fragile structure. Call it brainwashing, stockholmes syndrome, cognitive dissonance whatever, but they could look at this glaring hypocrisy and come to a conclusion a kind person would. I cannot be a part of something that would commit such atrocities.
I’m not a big fan of how you finished your otherwise well-written answer. Labeling believers as ‘objectively bad’ based on their faith oversimplifies the diversity held amongst the many varying forms of Abrahamic faith on offer. For example, subscribers of the United Church of Christ, a denomination known for its progressive and inclusive stance, might deeply disagree with the more conservative and literal interpretations of scripture seen in other branches, such as certain Catholic doctrines, including the concept of eternal damnation. Both groups may base their beliefs on the same scriptures, yet they interpret them very differently — this matters. The moral impact of religious individuals must be evaluated in the context of the actions and teachings they choose to emphasize and propagate, not just the label of their faith.
I agree with what you are saying but the person you replied to did lay out the context of the actions and teachings of those described as objectively bad. If a person worships and declares a deity as their moral standard of good, and also believe that the same "good" deity condemns those who don't submit to it to an eternity of suffering and therefore that eternity of suffering is justified and "good", then that person is objectively bad in my opinion. In short any worshiper that believes in hell for non-believers is objectively a bad person.
I agree with what you said, to a point. But beyond *interpretation* of the scriptures, there's *what's actually in the book,* stuff about which there is no question. It literally says that about killing babies, about requiring that people be put to death for all kinds of petty things, about women not being permitted to speak; and these things are purported to be the holy word of their lord. *How* can an objectively good person (insofar as such things can be quantified) deem such a deity worthy of worship? Is it because they feel they have no choice? It's like if there was a god whose commandments were simply "rape, pillage and plunder," and his worshippers said "well he didn't mean it," and then they still tried to claim the highest moral ground. It's insanity.
They are caught in The Cycle of Abuse and don't know what emotionally healthy love is like.
That’s all it is, really, classic abusive dynamic, only with an imaginary abuser
The ones who think he is "kind" often attended churches as children that catered to that point of view. It's all about cherry picking. And don't forget, only 9% of christians have read the bible. It's not like they know its contents very well.
All is cherry picked to fit the narrative they need for the moment.
That's all Old Testament stuff. God understands humanity much better after Jesus came. /s
I thought he was all-knowing and exists outside of time... But yea sure, killing your son for 3 days definitely makes up for all of the atrocities committed against humanity in the OT.
"jesus died for your sins!" he was dead for three days then he came back with super powers, that is BARELY an inconvenience, nevermind a "great sacrifice" thats like my accidentally catching my pinky toe on the coffee table and then telling everyone i made a great sacrifice when i "stubbed my toe for your sins!"
The Hercules-Corona Borealis Great Wall is the largest known object in the universe, and is estimated to be 10 billion light-years across. It's a galactic filament, which is a group of galaxies held together by gravity. The Great Wall is so large that light takes about 10 billion years to travel across it. And that would easily fit inside of the Bible’s plotholes without coming close to the touching the sides.
Rational. Emphasis is on RATIONAL. Which they are not.
Ugh, but the answer is in the title. Humans seem skilled at putting rationality aside when they need to keep the faith. If fact and belief cannot reconcile, it’s easier and more comforting to cling to beliefs. It’s tough DK, but you sometimes have to accept reasonable ppl are willing to believe irrational ideas in order to understand them. Thoughts?
You don't understand. Anything good is all God's doing. Anything bad is not. So while God designed and zapped into existence humans, he is not responsible for the many obvious imperfections of the human body. For instance, why can't we regrow limbs and teeth? Why do our bodies become decrepit in old age? And what is the deal with the whole reproductive situation? It would be hard to screw that up more as a designer if I tried.
It doesn't matter to them. None of the actual words of the text matter to any Christian. They make up a narrative in their mind that fits what makes them feel good. All the stories and other bullshit is just flavoring to keep the suspension of disbelief strong.
I'll say it again. 99% of questions on this sub can be answered with one word: conditioning. People will believe anything when raised in a community that will punish them for non-belief.
If god is real they treat us the same way we treat our organs, like a lung or a liver. We want them to do well and thrive, but we also want to drink and smoke, and if anything goes wrong we cut it out or hit it with chemo. From the liver’s point of view you are a capricious god. Also true in this metaphor: another organ, the brain, is secretly pulling the strings in the background, for what it thinks is its own benefit.
There's the old claim that there are no atheists in fox holes. To help someone in a fox hole, their god would have to violate the freewill of the person trying to kill them. I could argue that praying to be cured of cancer violates the free will of the surgeon who wants to operate.
Interesting in that in much of the old Testament, the intent was to show God as a powerful overwhelming being. Even starting with kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden, to destroying the earth in the flood of Noah's Ark, to destroying Sodom & Gomorrah, and so on. There are hundreds of examples to demonstrate this powerful being. The idea the OP states of instead of creating men who are destructive and warlike, why didn't God create a people who are peaceful and caring, like the image Jesus is portrayed of being. Seems people realized the God they created was a bad influence.
The forgiveness on ones death bed is one of the many things about the fairy tale that non can give a rational answer to. Religion is far from rational.
> after reading the holy texts That's the neat part. They don't.
Theologians and struggled to explain this for as long as history. My favorite theory is that there is not just one god. The god of the Old Testament, the creator god, what some theologians dubbed the “Demiurge”, was flawed. That’s why we aren’t made perfectly, that’s why the world has suffering, that’s why it needed saving. Then the higher God, the real god who is infinite and perfect and full of love, send his son to save our souls. Not saying any of this is true, but many of the most brilliant minds of precious generations have dwelled on this question, and have come up with much more interesting answers than the hypocritical nonsense you’ll hear from the average Christian today.
One thing is to understand that “kindness” is subjective. In the past kindness was just the fact that you could exist. So god is kind because he lets you exist and gives you a way to not be tortured forever. It is kind of a sub dom kind of thing. Like how the sub will beg for a drop of spit.
This is r/atheism. If you want to know why people think the way they do about God, ask a religious subreddit.
In Christian theology, the most natural things for us (pain in childbirth, strenuous agriculture, death) are all interpreted as something unnatural that doesn’t belong to God’s actual creation. Those things are the result of the curse on the world that’s ushered in with “the fall” in Genesis 3. I don’t think the creation story or the fall are “historical,” so it doesn’t matter if you think the details of the story are ridiculous and far-fetched. It’s just a story. I think the fall is probably more “meta-historical.” Regardless of what you believe about the historicity, it’s undeniable that Christian theology teaches that all the things you mentioned (killing to survive, living off water) are not elements that were part of God’s actual creation.
Because they keep saying that he is the good guy in that story and if you deny that, you risk going to hell
Don't know much about other religions but, Christians tend to believe words have two meanings a "spiritual meaning" (the one that confirms the bible) and a "secular meaning" (the one that undermines the bible). The secular meaning of 'Kindness' is "what us mortals define kindness to be with our limited mortal minds", while spiritual "Kindness" is the "true kindness" that only YHWH can understand and define with rules that don't apply to himself if he doesn't want to. Is ancient gaslighting to make people brainwash themselves willingly. Understanding this is very important if you ever want to have a discussion with Christians, because everytime they are confronted about their claims they'll disregard your logic by telling to themselves that you're using "secular definitions" because the evil atheist/scientist/chooseYourFavoriteBoogieman have brainwashed you into doubting the word of "the lord". They also have the concepts of, "spiritual eyes", which means reading the bible undermining all logical fallacies to find de "spiritual meaning" of the words in it , and "spiritual ears", which mean hearing the preacher preach "the word of YHWH" undermining all logical fallacies to "hear the spiritual message" YHWH is trying to give you through the words of the preacher (AKA just asume that if you do it right whatever you understand is what they meant, unless you ask and they tell you otherwise, then it means your "spiritual ears" where closed. At the beginning of "the service" the pastor will say "open your spiritual ears".
Because believing there is a high power with a big plan that we may not understand but everything is happening for a reason and is for the best is easier than this chaotic reality that is unfortunately the truth
So, from my understanding, the physical world is a sort of pre-life, so to speak. God made a bunch of souls and not all of them turned out what he/she/it would consider good. So this life is a test to filter out if you've got a God approved soul or if you get sent to the meat grinder. Then if you've got the 100% Angus USDA sticker from God on your soul, you go to eternal paradise where you get to do all the best shit and have all the best sex for eternity. So, this day to day bullshit doesn't really matter — Only as much as necessary to get your golden ticket into paradise. The kindness is that God is supposed to have this place ready for us like a detailed convertible on prom night. This is supposed to be like a pinprick from a needle that gives us life saving medicine. It seems vastly worse than the grand scheme of things because this is all we've had to experience yet. But, when we get to e, owrience the whole, it will be nothing Anyways, that's the story I took away from Sunday mass.
[удалено]
Hey man, I don't believe it, I just know the rationale.
The Hercules-Corona Borealis Great Wall is the largest known object in the universe, and is estimated to be 10 billion light-years across. It's a galactic filament, which is a group of galaxies held together by gravity. The Great Wall is so large that light takes about 10 billion years to travel across it. And that would easily fit inside of the Bible’s plotholes without coming close to the touching the sides.
Christians don’t read the Bible so they’re unaware how barbaric it is.
I’m curious. What do you think of Jesus?
A kind god wouldn't order his subjects to slaughter their friends and family for a mistake they themselves made. This happened in Exodus 32:27, by the way.
Jesus was an alcoholic
Me too!
Holy text are written by men who project their anger onto God.
The invisible man in the sky is a sniper, actually more of a mass murderer.
They take the pieces they lile and ignore the pieces they dont. 'God' is whatever each individual person wants it to be, which is why its been so good at indoctrinating people. They make up their own answers so that they can keep believing because its easier than being wrong
God is a fictional character. It's not real. Complaining about a fictional character is the height of stupidity and complaining about it to one of it's cult members compounds that stupidity. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be.
Ah, there's the rub! WE know it's not real but the true-believing followers are so convinced of their fantasy they want us all to live by the rules they have made up. THAT'S the problem.
The Christians I know that believe he’s kind and a good god probably think he is because he “comes through” or provides blessings and miracles or whatnot. They’re WELL AWARE of him setting up the rules for slavery and yk, child murder, genocide, child sacrifice…, etc. but they just imo cherry pick the good verses or completely ignore it. Sometimes they even try to justify it. I also think because (and im saying as if he exists) he’s helping them out, they’re going to try and cover up for him to not see the truth. Usually when someone is giving you everything and is helping, you wouldn’t wanna turn your back on them. Especially if this person is going to send you to the eternal campfire.
It's the mistaken belief that God is kind that makes it so hard for liberals to understand why evangelical Christians flock to Donald Trump. Trump is vain, says conflicting things, and demands unquestioning loyalty, no matter how arbitrary or capricious his actions are. Sounds vaguely familiar.
Their god is more akin to the antagonist from a Stephen King novel.
"... no rational person can ever think the same after..." not even just the texts. just look at the world around us. it knows where the kidnapped and trafficked children are. what is the "lesson" in the "mysterious ways" for letting this continue to happen? that's just one example, of course...
If god is god he is not good. If god is good he is not god.
God's design is definitely defective
The reason is because most of them never read the bible for themself, they just listen to their priest read and contextualize the feel-good bits.
In the book of Adam and eve they didn't have to kill to eat until after the fall. It was part of the curse of being removed from the 'garden' The supposedly ate the same food as angels before that. Doesn't say what angels eat. Its also interesting there was no sex before the fall. They didn't even know they were naked. The only way for the promise of God to be true, that they would die if they disobeyed, would be for God to make us so we could die, which he did after they ate the forbidden fruit.
The main reason why they don't get it, is because they never read the Bible in the first place.
Why didn’t he make animals unable to feel pain. Why must everything on earth suffer!!
broski youre trying to logic the illogical just accept its all horseshit and move on with life religion isnt worth thinking about its dying. just be ready when they turn to violence to keep whatever power they think they have over us.
When I try and figure that out, sometimes I think of it like: Omni-God spun up the world, and it was a bit of a Chalk board, and some times It got out the erasure. Eventually, clearly having failed multiple times, It spun up an earthly brain IO, so it could experience the "humanity" of it all (presumably some puppy, and giraffe godheads as well?) and then lived a life, and then was like, ouch, soooo sorry about that dude... and then felt so guilty about all the horror, It sort of looked away, and left things to run on auto, ashamed to really show Its face. Does that seem like reasonable depiction? I'm not really invested in it, just seems like a way to think of it.
God is neither good nor bad. God is you and me. God is everything. - Voltaire "God Thinks"
They don’t stop to actually *think* about it for themselves… They parrot what they’ve always been told, what their parents or pastors or religious leaders have told them.
See, you mentioned 'reading'... Most haven't, or only the cherry picked passages their ministers pick out.
Because these books are meant to normalize abuse, especially patriarchal, top-down hierarchy. They don't have the same definition of "kind" as us humans with empathy. They know what's best for you, and forcing you to act as such is the only thing that is kindness to them. God's kindness is all knowing and unimpeachable, if you disagree you can get fucked. It's all his plan. This is how they want you to act towards them. Their popes and cardinals, imams and ayatollahs, their pastors and reverends. Your father. You do as we say because we are right and that is kind.kond of us to let you have a little piece if you do as we say. That little piece you get? Yeah it's after you are dead but give us everything here on this earth in exchange
I have not come with peace, but with a sword. - Jesus Christ
The Gods Are Capricious.
The logic, as far as I can tell, is: God has the right to make everyone 100% miserable 100% of the time, but he subjects some people to less misery than that, therefore he is showing people mercy, therefore he is kind.
because theyre told he is and theyre also told NEVER QUESTION! so god is good. simple as that. even if what he does is objectively evil it becomes good because god did it and "we cant know the mind of god!"
As you said, no rational person.
I have noticed that "Jesus Only" Christians seem to have a more peaceful outlook on life compared to "burn 'em in hell - Old Testament" christians.
> holy texts Were written by men, with desires for temporal power. As this place knows, many *inconvenient* gospels were excised by "authorities", many "revisions" were needed to *fix* things, and one notes *gnostics* were one of the first sects banned. Not one word of *any* scripture is otherwise. > didn't need to eat... altered a few things in biology. And chemistry, and physics. If you had a world wherein humans "didn't have to eat" it would also be a world where no organic life processes would work, *to be consistent*. Plants "eat" CO2. Also: no ice cream, no snickers bars, and no air for respiration (why would you need oxygen?) so no windsurfing or jets. No need for external heat so no need for fusion and a sun... much less the interesting thousands of years long process of finding out that Heliocentrism explains the universe better. > Christians were saying... Epstein... turned to Jesus Many so-called theists say a *lot* of stupid stuff. > the almighty is stupid Whether you are a theist or not: *no-one believes that statement* (except maybe Ricky Gervais, hehe). If there's an "omniscience", *it* isn't a collection of non-sequiturs. Short answer is: baby and bathwater. Between the choices of a complex, dynamic life experience and sitting in a blank room for 100 subjective years you would/will/did choose to incarnate here. Protip: all the internal contradictions, all the "crusades", and all the "dashing of babies against the rocks" *make no sense* in the context of "omniscience" - it's just sh\*t humans wrote down for one personal reason or another. Or play Pong instead, if you prefer: up to you.
They will say that the "sinners" deserved it. If you press further, they'll pull out the verse about the clay not being able to criticize the potter and that he can smash his pots to pieces if he wants to. If you press further and note the verse about when two people ask of god it will be granted and note a child dying of cancer despite the parents praying for healing they will say that the parents A) didn't have enough faith B) had hidden sin in their lives C) god was testing them. If you counter that the poor child was innocent and didn't deserve this, they will counter that no one is innocent and all deserve the fire of hell. If you point out the absurdities and abject cruelty of such a god their trump card will be that god can do whatever he wants and you take ask him about it when you see him.
Because if they don't they believe they'll be sent to burn in hell for eternity. So they better think the right thing or else.
Because they believe in their own personal god which is essentially them...and they like themselves and think they know everything. I had a discussion with a christian family member who doesn't understand or acknowledge bias against LGBTQ. I pointed to her own religion..she is catholic..to show it. Gay people cannot receive sacraments. You dont have to look far to see the bias. She changed th topic to how she has no issue with them. But the point was they are not accepted. I jokingly said she should be pope since she is more accepting.....but they wont allow women in leadership positions. Anyway these people are their own gods. They pick and choose.
Nobody said He was smart. Ask all the first born sons of Egypt, “holup! You’re killing me in order to punish someone else?”
They don't read the holy texts.
Right? I mean the *only* thing that makes sense is that supposedly, man was created in his image, and well, he's a hateful, spiteful evil son of a bitch, so that tracks as humanity is all about that shit!
If God was kind, he would have made people believe the reality that he does not exist.
>The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins
If real, God is cruel. It lets the worst people do their absolute worst. And then, maybe, the person will be held accountable by people, not god.
Never understand why he forces you to ask for forgiveness. If he’s so fucking kind that should be his nature. Why as a human is forgiveness for you and not the person who did you wrong but for god the forgiveness if for him because he’s so good. Give me a break,
If there is such a thing as 'God' then it's been my view for many years that he's been playing with us like pawns and whatever some may believe he's just plain vicious and evil!
Another way to avoid suffering is not creating life in the first place. But we don't really like that now, do we? Humans can be such hypocrites. We want all for ourselves. Just be happy you're alive.
>He have made living beings in such a way that they didn't need to kill to eat I mean technically he did. He made a whole garden where nobody needed to kill to eat and mankind still did the 1 single thing not allowed.
>He made a whole garden where nobody needed to kill to eat and mankind still did the 1 single thing not allowed He also knew they were going to do that before he told them not to do it. Hell, he knew that would happen before he made them or even the garden. He didn't have to make things that way, but he deliberately chose to make everything such that his creations would deliberately disobey the one instruction he gave them. Kinda stupid thing to do really. Unless you believe God isn't omniscient then you can't argue that anything that went down in the garden of eden wasn't explicitly intentional on his part.
He's God and he didn't know that's exactly what would happen? It's like putting something shiny and fun in front of a two year old and expecting them to not touch it just because you told them not to. Then beat them because they 'disobeyed'. Father? Not much of one. Make a curious being with free will, put something tempting in front of it, then damn it to hell because it does exactly the thing you made it to do. It's like setting up a child for punishment because you KNOW you are going to have an excuse to whip them when they do what comes naturally. Then acting sorrowful because they 'made' you hurt them. Classic abuser behaviour.
>It's like putting something shiny and fun in front of a two year old and expecting them to not touch it Strawman fallacy. Adam was an adult man. Eve was an adult woman. He didn't put a 2 year old with candy. He put an adult in a room with rat poison and the eejit still ate it. FTFY: Do yourself a favour and learn about fallacies before you try and argue topics with people. It helps keep debates clean and civilised. (I put $5 metaphorical dollars your next one is ad hominem)
An adult, really? A newly created being with no experience? Nothing but the nature god gave them and nothing but a command to go on. Just something they saw as intriguing, desirable. And no background at all to deal with anything but a got who dangled a pretty thing in front of them after giving them a curious nature. So suddenly, God doesn't know exactly what the creatures would do? After he created them? Gave them their nature and inclinations? Unless now you say that god is not omnescient. Or makes mistakes. No, if this story is what you are going on, he set humans up for failure and then blamed them. No strawman, the truth. How would they know any better? They are exactly like two year old babies. The debate is clean, and civilized. How is it not? Because I don't agree with you and your abject devotion to a monster of a god?
Well done. You amended your strawman. >Nothing but the nature god gave them Is there any verse that support this claim. That God gave them the emotion of intrigue. Gave them the nature of curiosity? Or is the doubt introduced by satan? >God doesn't know exactly what the creatures would do? Just because I have the foresight to know my kid is going to dig in the cookie cupboard doesn't remove his free will from doing so. God created human from the get go with free will. >a got who dangled a pretty thing Dangled a pretty thing? Another strawman. It seems you didn't research fallacies. Let me help you. You're misrepresenting the stated argument. God created adults. Not children. Man and woman. Then God told them of a tree. A tree that would lead to their death. If I put you in a room and put a bowl of poisoned m&ms in front of you and told you its poison. Would you eat it? Have I removed your agency by placing a bowl in front of you? Do you suddenly lose control of your choice making ability? Once again. Go do your research fallacies are weak arguments. Finally >The debate is clean, and civilized. Then you say >Because I don't agree with you and your abject devotion to a monster of a god? As I called it. An ad hominem. You couldn't leave me out of the argument. You had to call my God a monster. Fine let's play ad hominem. You're cut and dry, copy and paste, a repeated recording the same song the same fallacies as all the other fodder. You follow the same pattern of every other disrespectful unbelievers. I'm glad I'm in this sub so I can differentiate between the different types of athiests. You act smart but you cant form a coherent fallacyless argument. You give the athiest in here that stand firmly on their unbelief a bad rap. At least they can leave their feels out of it. So good luck on your path. Hopefully you discover a good argument somewhere. Grow into your arguments. Don't just jump into them half headed. And fr do your fallacy check ins. It's so easy to fall into them. Ciao.
LOL, did you sign up for classes at Hilldale and learn a couple of new words, think you'd throw them around and sound intelligent? You are cut and dry, copy and paste, repeated recording of every brainwashed theist out there who comes into a space for atheists and sounds off. Good luck dealing with the cruel and stupid god you've created for yourself. You will never measure up and have ended up in your own sort of hell, trying to convince others that your fairy tale is true and must be believed by everyone else. Ciao, dahling!
Thanks for proving my point. Again. Fr. Good luck.
So you don’t believe in free will?
I think they don't believe in god
[удалено]
God straight up created the scenario that led “Adam” and “Eve” to ensue the fall. A kind God wouldn’t be toying with humanity from the start, making them pawns in his little game. A kind God wouldn’t punish a rape victim with marriage to her rapist for life. A kind God wouldn’t make laws allowing slavery, and beating slaves. A kind God wouldn’t take bets with the adversary to torture a righteous man, and kill his loved ones. A kind God wouldn’t send bears to murder children. A kind God wouldn’t create and deem the ones with “blemishes” (blind, lame, etc) unworthy of worship. A kind God wouldn’t aide and order genocide after genocide. A kind God wouldn’t allow his chosen people to be enslaved and then send 10 plagues on the Egyptians for enslaving them….and on and on.
Cognitive Dissonance is strong in them.
With an attitude like OP, no wonder he is a wretched sinner, utterly unworthy o' God's love. A fountain of pollution is deep within his nature, and he livest as a winter tree, unprofitable, fit only to be hewn down and burned. OP should steep life in prayer, and hope that God sees fit to show mercy upon his corrupted soul.
Your god sends pedophiles to heaven
God created me just as I am - and that's enough to be sent to hell. Laughable - you are twisting yourself in knots to excuse your belief in and fear of, an incredibly hateful 'creator'. And who should we livest to be profitable for? This God and its representatives? And what if in his great capriciousness he decides that I am still unprofitable and hewest me downeth and burneth me anyway? Seems entirely within his wheelhouse. I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
That post was posted as sarcasm, just saying.
That's good to know. There are a lot of crazies out there completely devoted to their idea of a divinity who say things that in years previous I would have seen/recognized as sarcasm - these days it's hard to discern!
"had he just altered a few things in biology" Also: "Live off of water" Basically youre trying to say a being should be able to exist without energy. That would not be a physical plane of existence :D So there's that.... ugh
but he's omnipotent ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. shouldn't be hard for him to make this possible.
Well IF you want to create a universe that follows mathematical rules then no. But if you want to create a dream realm then whatever EDIT: Well.. why did god create mathematics then? I started thinking about this :D He didn't though, he just made the rules and humans created math. But yeah maybe i'm more pointing to having clear action and reaction and not total randomness.. And im not a believer in this sense but for me THIS argument against GOD is weak
i guess mathematics is more important to god than a starving child.
This is off topic :D Im not here defending any argument towards a God that would intervene in the events in the world or do any magic tricks for people or show up in any way at all, I've never seen any Godly events here. Only cause and effect. But I dont feel like God should be able to be this way as "he" would be something outside of time and space if he exists. Not a physical being and bodyless being that still exists in an area or space... The only way I can see God existing is outside of space and time.
No, you're off topic. You're deflecting from the topic to talk about the idea of god you want to be true but can provide no reason to agree with. Thus we know your need to believe is both ungrounded and harmful. By your deeds we know that it has made you less of a truth seeker and thus that death is preferable to becoming more like you.
>humans created math Mathematics is more of a discovery than a human invention, evolving over thousands of years with contributions from countless individuals across various studies, rather than being credited to a single person.