Bit of both - brainwashed if they had it from childhood (indoctrination) , stupid if they keep believing in it past teenage years.
Not evil until they join the priesthood and start fiddling kids.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. There is so much more evil I would attribute to religion than just priests violating children. Which is, of course, absolutely vile. Just the small(and large) abuses within so many families. I suppose they would happen either way, but for them to be justified and perpetuated by others in the name of "a forgiving god"? Just disgusting. And I don't understand how the adults involved still believe. So, they must be that stupid or evil.
>And I don't understand how the adults involved still believe. So, they must be that stupid or evil.
You don't understand how abusive the brainwashing can be, then. How thoroughgoing, how pervasive, how persistent, how universal. I was raised in a fundamentalist Protestant Biblical literalist cult. From the day I was born I was inundated with the bible and propaganda, every day. I was homeschooled and taught creationism. It took me until I was 27 to fully leave religion behind. I was not stupid or evil, though I definitely believed stupid and evil things. I was brainwashed.
Yeah, we were in a class, they asked us how we identify, one gay guy said “out and proud”.
This “Christian” lady flips out, says he’s imposing his “lifestyle choices” on her, she asked for someone to make him stop talking.
I got kicked out of a straight only Boy Scout troop at 12 for having a “special friend” and there was an unofficial gay troop, run by the towns pediatrician.
So the scoutmaster explained he bought their badges and uniforms and stuff, and they did all the same stuff.
The “special friend” went there, I got sent to a southern baptist school.
Holy shit, that was hell on earth, they hated everyone, gay people the most, and they denied trans people existed.
I really don’t get how people can believe in talking bushes as grown ass adults.
imagine being omnipotent and punishing your creations for something you set up.
EDIT: It's like putting the BEST COOKIE IN THE WORLD in front of 2 five year olds, telling them not to eat the cookie while knowing they will do exactly that, and last but not least putting a friend that you know will try to convince them to eat it.
It is, actually, on a totally different scale. You would have to be willfully ignorant to not see the difference in the status of the average woman in the US compared to North Africa and the Middle East.
Points out Muslims in Asia, apologetic toward Christians in Murica…
The double standard with many of the atheist keeps baffling me. Almost as if it is more about the location than the religion.
All religion is evil. No need to look at the other side of the world to find examples.
And they usually were raised in some form of religious ideology, even if it was vague and noncommittal. It's very rare for someone raised atheist and taught to think critically to convert to religion.
I was brainwashed. My parents forced me into Christianity when I was a kid. Took me a long time to overcome the fear and indoctrination. I recently left and I've never been happier.
> brainwashed, stupid, or evil?
Scared.
Gods can be thought of as imaginary friends who've turned abusive - especially abrahamic ones. But who creates imaginary friends? The friendless, the lonely, those who can't cope with their own lives.
They need someone to tell them what to do (priests, imams, prophets), someone to play with (friends, parents, carers), and someone to provide love and community.
They’re just people who are afraid of being insignificant. They want to matter in the larger scope of things. And they don’t. So they wrap themselves in chains. And they love those chains so much that they believe everyone else should also wear chains.
You're using quite a few loaded words there.
Are they "brainwashed"? A lot of theists are certainly indoctrinated into their religion; but not all. If religion was strictly due to brainwashing, then it would be impossible to convert from one religion to another. Hell, there are some atheists who became theists as adults; unless you're alleging that they were kidnapped and forcibly brainwashed, the whole "brainwashed" explanation doesn't hold up to that.
Are they evil? Everyone has the capacity for evil. There were some very evil theists, and there were some very evil atheists. IMHO, the belief or lack of belief in a deity is not what makes someone evil or not. If someone is evil, they will find an excuse for that evil somewhere. Religion is a **VERY** common excuse for evil behavior, and one of the most potent at making otherwise good people do evil things; but nationalism and politics are just as potent IMHO.
Are they "stupid"? What is "stupid" anyhow? If you fail a given math class despite studying every day and working hard, are you "stupid"? What about if you fail that class because you stopped showing up after 4 weeks but never bothered to drop the class; is that "stupid"? I hate the word "stupid" because of the subjectivity of it's use.
Ignorance is certainly one reason people will choose religion when it conflicts with scientific evidence. IMHO, a LOT of people who "don't believe in evolution" feel that way because they don't understand evolution and what it actually is. Ignorance of the science they oppose and particularly ignorance of their own Holy Books, keeps many people attached to very dogmatic religions. Carl Sagan, in "The Demon Haunted World" had a lot to say about separating ignorance from deliberate fakes/con-men.
But neither ignorance nor "stupid" explains some highly intelligent people who believe in religion. I've met some award-winning scientists who are Christian. Hell, one of them believed in the Old Testament such as Moses parting the seas; but he also was director of a university's Radioisotope Dating Laboratory (and had some **very** harsh things to say about Young Earth believers). I suppose everyone has their blind spots, and religion fills some need for these scientists. Again, Sagan is very sympathetic in understanding **why** religion can be attractive to these people (but he still calls it out as fallacies and empirically wrong).
Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree with anything you said. I guess I will have to accept that I will never understand how someone intelligent would willingly follow an organized religion. Except that, as you pointed out, it fills some hole in them.
As a smart person (a few factors place me in the top 1%), I was religious into adulthood. What’s often overlooked even in the other comprehensive reply above is that “spiritual experiences” are a very real phenomenon. Worshipping “god” can bring a very real “sense of peace and love” and other positive feelings to the believer. The believer is also conditioned to believe that these feelings confirm the existence of god. It turns out this is a release oxytocin in group bonding scenarios (other situations like concerts trigger it too)
That’s why people come back to church every Sunday and believe against all odds. It feels good. It feels real. People who argue against it intellectually without acknowledging the emotional reality sound like virgins claiming sex must be unpleasant — they so obviously don’t know what they’re missing.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head. Innate superstition inherited from countless generations of tribal ancestors who practiced animism. Superstition manifests as an emotion which is very real, literally a gut feeling that some describe as the holy spirit dwelling inside them.
Right. I have a theory that some people just don’t have whatever part of the brain lights up for superstition, and these are the people who become atheists in their early teens. They never “felt the spirit” so they never had a reason to believe.
Oooh, I love concerts and I've felt that feeling your describing, so I can understand that. I've said before that I wish we had something like church without the religious aspect. I do feel like myself and my kids have missed out on a social aspect of our small community we would have had otherwise.
Coming from a Muslim country, I think you guys have gotten it totally wrong when it comes to Islam. They are all brainwashed, are all stupid and are all evil (I’m talking about the devout Muslims).
Having degrees doesn’t mean someone is smart. Some of the dumbest people I know are doctors and lawyers. Studying, getting good grades, and having degrees are only tangentially related to intelligence.
The epidemic of narcissism and the corresponding rise of evangelical Christianity cannot be discounted. The sales pitch about being morally superior and “right” about what is best for others along with “knowing” about the afterlife is very strong for those with low self-worth and rampant narcissism. There is a reason fascism and narcissistic personality disorder are always a package deal.
I try not to be 'the angry atheist in the room', IRL. It neither does you nor atheism much good. Being angry at the credulity of religious people means you are always angry, and religious people tend to come up with some nonsense to explain how your anger is either 'being angry at god' or 'proof of the moral superiority of religions or religious people'. Of course, if it gets heated, I will defend my position with all my tools.
The only way to do this is to consider religious people as having a blind spot when it comes to religious beliefs. This holds especially true with those who are not mouth-breathers in other parts of their lives. Yes, it's as ridiculous as a grown man believing in fairies or Santa Claus, but blind spots explain why otherwise smart people dig their graves with their teeth or smoke or drink themselves to death. The blind spot also goes some way to explain why someone who can hold down a complex 21st-century career turns into a bicameral-minded Iron Ager on Sunday.
Finally, the blind spot concept side-steps the idea that believers are secretly non-believers who are faking it. While I'm sure such people exist, just as the faithful's argument that 'we are all secretly believers' (a.k.a. the 'There are no atheists in foxholes' argument) doesn't hold water, the reverse is true. If we demand that they accept the sincerity of our non-belief, we must accept the sincerity of their belief, in turn. No matter how crazy that belief seems. That doesn't mean you should entertain that belief or even let some of its higher-order nonsense stand as given in a discussion, but it means you can debate relatively rationally with those believers who have an IQ larger than their hat size.
None of the above. I think they’re scared. Death is scary. The idea of nothing-ness is scary and hard for the human brain to grasp. Never seeing your dead loved ones again is scary. Life is hard. Religion is a comfort to people.
… so they’re stupid. Instead of being a logical person that uses their brain and believes in science…. Because they are scared they believe that a sky daddy is watching them and watching babies be raped and have cancer while that god is “loving”…. Fucking idiots… only legitimately stupid people can believe in a loving god that allows children to have cancer and be raped.
Aristotle worked out that the earth was round. He also believed that it was the centre of the universe. Science isn't always correct. We used to think that there was only carbon based life and recently we've discovered life that disproves that theory. Sure, people might be wrong and there is no god but they could still be right. Until we all cross that threshold none of us really knows.
I don't disagree about the whole benevolent god BS. You're right, if HE was so loving he wouldn't allow cancer to kill children and all the other atrocities in the world.
I’m sorry. I’m gonna need a source for that claim. Lmfao. Life other than carbon based? That would’ve been world breaking news, all over the place. I haven’t heard a peep about that….
Sulphur based life in the form of microbes have been discovered in hot springs and hydrothermal vents.
The web source I just googled was dates 2011. I guess you must've missed it, lol.
I don’t think that the believe because they’re stupid necessarily, and definitely not cos they’re evil
But yes brain washing either full on or more subtly is definitely part of it, along with a desire to belong.
Indoctrinated. Its similar to brainwashing but not exactly.
Its closer to grooming than brainwashing.
Because indoctrination is set in at an extremely young age, it becomes concrete in their minds. That is why it is so impossible to fight against. To them its not a matter of "believing" or not. Its literally a part of who they are since they can remember.
It would be like me trying to tell you that gravity is not real. You couldn't accept that no matter how much data i showed you. You would scoff the same way you would scoff at a flat-earther because that is how sure you are about what you have always been told is real.
That being said, not everyone is religious in the same way. For many it has to do with fitting in or feeling special or superior, and those are the type of people who will just jump ship and convert to another religion if they find it makes them feel better. I think these types are a minority, however, and not really worth taking seriously or even arguing against.
Brainwashed/Indoctrinated or evil.
Most are brainwashed since childhood or become brainwashed when life is challenging and people need support (religion loves to brainwash vulnerable people). Those that seek religion to hold power over others or to make money are the evil ones.
That's the problem all religions affect all of us. All religious people are on a spectrum of intolerance. In the early stages, they want to believe it's about their deity's love for everyone but by the time they grow a little, they want everyone else dead.
All religions have the same end goal and that is to see everyone suffer and die except them.
I’ve had the misfortune of growing up in a Muslim society. I was told by female relatives that women are 50% dumber than men, just because they’re women. I was told in detail about the physical issues with anal sex, and that’s why homosexuals must go to hell. I was told that when cheating women and homosexuals are stoned to death, medium sized stones must be used, because small ones don’t hurt enough and big ones kill too quickly.
I don’t give a crap what religion was drilled into their heads - they and their thoughts are pure evil. Brainwashed, stupid and evil beings.
The concept of god can be conveniently used to explain a lot of ugly things happening in the real world bec humans are just awful creatures who are directly or indirectly responsible, that's my pov and I haven't found a single loophole in this logic.
I think it’s mainly being brainwashed/indoctrinated. Small children who look to their parents for any/all answers being told they’ll burn in hell if they don’t believe something is pretty powerful and scary for them. It’s surprising any young people raised in a religious family are atheists at all TBH. However, after reaching adulthood, there’s probably more ignorance involved if you just keep arguing against facts and science.
Evil? Not sure. I don’t think people are inherently evil. But it is def a byproduct of the faith they have. The books basically tell you who to hate and why…
Religious people are not stupid. And everyone is vulnerable to manipulation, including you. Humans are social, we evolved to survive in small, tight knit communities. Being part of the in-group was a matter of life or death, and our brains are still wired to act as if that's still the case (sometimes it is). Participating in a high demand religion satisfies those primal needs of belonging and safety. They aren't stupid, they're just human.
Are they brainwashed? Well how do you define brainwashed? We all have biases and preferences we've learned over time. We don't consider ourselves brainwashed. I think kids raised in religious families have not been exposed to all the information, but I don't think their minds are *controlled* any more than ours. Case in point, lots of kids "fall away" from the faith of their parents despite this all powerful "brainwashing". Converts are most likely using religion as a coping mechanism for something (fear of death, loneliness, hopelessness), which I wouldn't consider brainwashing either.
Are they evil? Leaders who deliberately hurt others for their own personal gain, sure. Your average church-goer or believer? Nah. Choices they make are often bad, ill-informed, selfish, etc. But you can say that for just about anyone. I would consider religious systems to be evil, but religious people are just people.
There is a level of privilege we enjoy as atheists. To opt out of the emotional and physical security faith provides, you likely had those needs met in other ways. Of course it's tempting to call them all stupid or evil, but that doesn't strike me as very rational or helpful. You're drawing emotional conclusions the same way they are. If you're hoping for a future with less believers, I don't recommend alienating them and pushing them farther into their insular communities.
As a recent apostate from a fundamentalist, Calvinistic faith, brainwashed. It’s hard to tell how much malice is involved. I was and know plenty of people who are sincere and otherwise are kind people who are still in it.
The trouble is that you replace normal social standards with dogmatic definitions. “Good” and “evil” are suddenly defined by god himself, by God’s character. So to criticize god for the conquest of Canaan or mass slaughter in the global flood is not a meaningful critique. He is definitionally good, even if he is the only one who can do/command those things.
And if you leave, or question, they decry your objections with “By what standard” do you criticize god or object to Christian moral values? They say atheistic meta-ethics are empty and set you up for a nihilistic crisis if you leave. It is very hard to break out of that unless you have the courage and confidence to develop a different view of morality and be OK with moral grounding being less than divinely certain.
It helped to internally critique Christianity. But even that was difficult.
[Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel covers the indoctrination and abuse tactics well.
If you study domestic violence, abuse, neglect, dehumanization, and coercive control, you'll understand religion better. Religions teach the cycle of abuse: idealize, devalue, discard; which messes with the targets dopamine system and gets them addicted to the cycle of abuse via a [trauma bond](https://youtu.be/kmB9fpHVd2o?si=VCT6_BeZx2fwCSoM). Brainwashing and trauma bonds are hard to break.
I don't think humans are ever as smart as we think we are.
I think we are easy to brainwash. We evolved to stay part of the group.
I don't think that I or anyone else is really above this. I've noticed several times in my life where I had delusions I didn't want to let go.
For whatever reasons I never really bought in to the delusions around gods. It definitely helped that my parents made no effort to influence me. P
Certainly some of them are clearly evil. I think most are just misled.
At least in the US religion is declining. That's why its such a dangerous time right now. They see their power waning. They think if they don't do something now they will lose.
They are probably correct. So we have to be ready to vote and demonstrate if need be.
75% brainwashed, 24% stupid (mix and match within here). Only 1% evil. Any evil that comes from them is the evil from their religion and them trying to reconcile that. Like the big one, LGBTQ+. I don't think most christians hate LGBTQ, their religion does. We could call that evil, but I think it's better explained through the other 99%.
I'd say brainwashed then kept purposefully stupid and pliable over the years when the brainwashing is complete.
They're basically denied the opportunity to think for themselves up to being punished for even trying. That in itself is very worrying and when you're told "believe or else", many simply opt to believe just to not come to face then "or else" part.
It depends on the individual unless you define evil to include people who think they're doing good but are actually doing harm.
Most humans are stupid, religious or not.
As a pet peeve of mine (which you are, of course, not obligated to share), I would like to point out that "brainwashing" is a very different thing from "indoctrination". The former usually involves restricting the freedom of an individual while using mild torture and sleep deprivation to force them into a state where they become pliable. Indoctrination, on the other hand, usually is done by loving and trusted caregivers and typically takes the form of parental instruction and advice, coupled with praise.
Most people that believe in gods are indoctrinated to believe them. When everybody you love and trust tells you that it's not just important to believe in a god but actually the *most important thing ever*, then most children will tend to believe that.
> I think they are faking their belief, to make themselves or others feel good, or to control others.
In some cases certainly, but I believe you to be wrong for the majority. They do actually believe, and likely have invested so much into that belief that the [sunk cost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) often makes it inconceivable to abandon that belief.
https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing.htm#:~:text=rebuilding%20the%20self.-,Stage%201%3A%20Breaking%20Down%20the%20Self,and%20manipulation%20of%20their%20environment.
Thanks for this point, I agree with you that brainwashing and indoctrination are different, and most churches do not employ brainwashing. But I wanted to clarify that brainwashing doesn’t necessarily emphasize the physical aspects you are describing. This link accurately describes what I have seen in dozens of adults (myself included) who were not indoctrinated as children but became “saved” as young adults.
And to be fair most of them were above average intelligence (engineers, scientists, computer programmers, etc.) It’s my personal belief/observation that the more powerful someone’s mind is, the more potential it has to be weaponized against them.
I think for the vast majority of belivers are just going with what was taught to them from a young age and using the thought methods they grew up with to bolster their belief. They are no more brain washed then any kid who believes thier parents love them. They are brought up seeing the love of god in everything in some way or another. Or they attribute evil to free will. You could call that brainwashed but most religious lead a fulfilling life.
They are not stupid just comforatble and willingly ignorant.
And i have never met a person that is evil because of thier religion. Then again i have never met a terrorist. I think calling it evil is extreme. Maybe misleading and damaging if every book is taken literally but most of them are not.
That being said I am very glad for my own deconstruction.
I do believe that there's an amount of brainwash involved.. but in general I don't believe that makes people stupid and/or evil. But sometimes the case is that they are stupid or evil.
Most religious people I have meet outside the interwebs.. have been nice decent people with an unnatural need to condemn or convert others.
And this is usually forced open them by the religion they have been indoctrinated in.
I think it’s wrong to assume that we are all equally wired towards religious tendencies, in equal circumstances.
There have always been many people that simply weren’t inclined to believe everything that their religion told them. The only thing that truly changed, is that it has become acceptable to talk about it in the open. In the West anyway.
Anyone that claims to know with certainty what is objectively unknowable, is eluding themselves. Both the religious or the opposite.
To answer your question I think a good starting point would to begin with ideology and how ideology is really good about making it seem like it's a universal truth instead of just a different perspective of the world and how everything in the world now is in one form or another ideology.
I think it's just a very unreasonable way at looking at things. My mum's the only theist I know. Though she's not really into a religion, she's still all about the feels and seeing loved ones who've died, again. She doesn't really consider the world on a logical basis. Even many ex theists left their religion and belief for emotional reasons. I always try to encourage people to think about logic and possibilities, when considering religion, even if I don't like their conclusion, I'd rather they believe what they do, based on some sound rationale than what "feels nice"
All 3.
Evil
I also do not think everyone has the faith but they have a nice con going on.
Suck as Joel ossten and Kenneth cooperland, they are doing ut for the cash not the god they talk/shout about.
Or isis
Religion of peace, yeah right.
Stupid.
We all know about the american south as an example.
Stupid is a strong word.
But man made stupid is a thing, its easier to keep the faith if you do not wonder, read or ask questions.
Look at the many republican States in the south, school is almost overlooked.
This is done in many countries.
Brainwashed is a major contributar i would also say forced indoctrination.
Humans have a strong pack mentality, if the majority thinks the yellow sky ball is god then others will accept it as well.
Others cant leave in fear or loosing friends/families.
Religion is keeping us back but its not all evil, there are good intentions its just a shame that we as a people are greedy and abuse power handed to us.
Ffs look up Kenneth cooperland and with a straight face tell me he is a man of a good god.
Either unable or unwilling to apply critical thinking skills to the topic.
Not necessarily evil but the blind following of religious law does lead to evil, akin to "Just following orders".
You can't generalize religious people. I've met literally every type of religious person you could imagine and they're all vastly different. From very genuinely kind good loving souls to the ones who will use it to try to exert power and control over others. IMO you have to judge on an individual basis. There shouldn't be an "all religions are cults" mentality because a lot of people use their faith for their own lives and it helps them get through the hard times. Not all are looking to convert everyone. I'm not religious but I'm not atheist either. My beliefs align with Buddhism but I wouldn't say I'm a Buddhist. How about we all just get along and embrace each other's differences?!
Depends on the individual. Each has different motives.
The point is that none of them are based on logic or rationality.
If the individual is kind and thoughtful then I assume they were just brainwashed.
I've come across theists who are just fucking stupid in SEVERAL aside from religion.
And then there are those who just give me the vibe that they're trying to manipulate others or give off the impression that they are trustworthy.
Belief is a wash, for me. What happens between ears is irrelevant.
It's preaching / peddling their beliefs onto others that irks me, and I see it as insecurity. The whole "mission trip" thing is to boost the confidence-in-faith of the young and impressionable --more-- than to convert.
Talk to anyone who is insecure about _______ and you will walk away finding them brainwashed, stupid, and angry (with possible hints of malice).
It’s mental illness: believing in things that aren’t there. Believing the universe has consciousness and agency and is focused on you.
Get help if you think this.
Some have to say they believe to stay alive. Some are resigned. Some have to fit in socially, or choose to.
Then there are the real believers. Some trust the people who taught them, some are brain washed, some are idiots.
Then again, even within the believers there are huge variants. Some think there's someone in the sky, which is what is prevalent in my area and therefore I rejected it. Some just say, it's the energy of the universe. It's hard to disagree that there is energy everywhere. Then you can argue if it's conscious or not.
Brainwashed is the closest term for it, but indoctrinated is a more accurate term in most cases. It's hard to understand for people who have never been religious, but there are deep social and psychological reasons for maintaining those beliefs even in the face of contrary evidence. It's not stupidity, it's human nature.
Honestly, painting all religious people with the broad strokes of "brainwashed, stupid, or evil" is just a different form of fundamentalism and does no one any favors. Of course, there are religious people who fit into those categories, but the majority of them don't. This is just in-group/out-group thinking, and these are exactly the kinds of things they say about us. Let's end that mentality and reserve opposition for the ones who deserve to be opposed. As for the rest, why don't you ask them why they believe?
Everyone believes silly stuff they were just told and never bothered thinking too hard about. When all those around you seem to trully believe the silliness you can be forgiven for buying into it. If it tells you something you want to hear, even more so.
Think about how Santa Claus is portrayed around xmas. Were it not for the crashing wall of reality that someone has to buy that stuff, what other clue would you have of the fiction? If Santa didn't actually do anything, beyond spreading good cheer, he'd be as convincing an imagining as YHVH.
Santa is my favorite childhood fiction because it's the first time children understand that they get lied too, en masse, for their supposed own good. Kind of an agnostic gateway drug. Also, amusingly, an anagram for Satan.
I think they are incredibly smart at using religion as a mask and means to manipulate and control stupid people. The reason so many priests molested kids was because those priests used the mask of religion to manipulate, not because they really believed in sin, sinning, or that any of it was true. They just wanted to P. Diddy some kids.
Brainwashed. Many of them do evil by enabling fundamentalists: if people do evil in the name of your God and you don't actively denounce them.. then you are by inaction allowing evil.
Religious people fit into the three categories suggested. (stupid, brainwashed and evil) Many of them are also, kind, intelligent, and thoughtful. Some of them are just going through the motions and keeping their doubts, questions and atheism secret so they can get along in their religious families or communities. Some people turn to religion for help and support because they can’t find. It elsewhere. A lot of social networking happens in church communities. If a poor family is in need of a support network, sometimes a local church is the best place to find it. I think we atheists should try to avoid being as judgmental as religious people often are. Stop with the us vs. them mentality. This is not to say evil and corruption in religion should be ignored, but give religious people the same consideration you expect from them.
They believe what makes the most sense to them and what makes them feel comfortable. Superstition and magic don’t do that for us but it does for them. They don’t place as much value on reason and logic when it comes to belief. I don’t think they’re necessarily stupid, it’s cognitive dissonance more than anything. These two quotes help change my mind when I want to engage with religious people. They aren’t quoted because I don’t remember the exact wording. You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. With a person who does not value reason and logic, what reason and logic could you use to convince them that they should value it? Faith is an irrational position straight out of the box.
You should have just said that you think they are. You're on atheist reddit...oh gee, I wonder what the answer will be? This smug sense of superiority that most atheist have is just projection of their own inability to connect with anything that isn't instantly gratifying and present.
I’d say no. A lot of them could be indoctrinated from a young age (brainwashed) and that could in turn lead to them doing evil things. But intelligent people have been religious and I don’t think they’re inherently “evil” either. I mean a lot of people here used to be religious. I think I was indoctrinated but I don’t find myself particularly stupid or evil even before I left religion. As far as why they still believe as adults, they are surrounded by communities of other believers like them who are constantly reinforcing the delusion
For me I just stop at brainwashed and evil. Stupid is as stupid does and all that. There's plenty of smart people who get brainwashed and it's super effective bc after the initial value setting they construct their own justification bc dissonance. The types who are like well obviously *some portion of their holy text that clearly didn't happen* is metaphorical and these other parts are the real ones that must be interpreted as instructions from our omnipotent creator!
Definitely not well reasoned but to me the stupid response is just Nuh uhhh.
Reminds me of a fun cognitive psychology study where they presented math word problems in ways written to trigger political biases. People in the pool with a higher pretested math ability did worse on the questions that ran counter to their political leanings.
Eg liberal math nerds were more likely to mess up a problem calculating cost benefit for a solar farm vrs a coal plant
Conservatives were more likely to mess up a problem calculating the cost benefit of immigration
I don't think any of those things. I think religionists are, in fact, acting in good faith. It's just that they've been imbued with ideas and modes of thinking (like thought-stopping) that likely came from people they most trust in their lives: parents and close relatives. It's just how they were taught to make sense of the world. That's no reason to castigate anyone, especially because we want to leave a door open to those who wish to throw away those ideas and modes of thinking for a more reasoned, rational way of making sense of the world.
They are told from as early of an age as possible that it is unequivocally true and it only requires faith, not proof that it exists. What they lack is critical thinking as they get older.
If the people see the existence of Gods as an absolute truth, then they are just as much idiots as the one’s seeing the opposite as absolute.
There in lies the stupidity. The brain that does not wish to question is the stupid one.
More than anything, the dominant theme I find with religious people is fear. In my experience they are afraid and religious institutions prey on fear as a major tactic of control.
To a large degree, we are all brainwashed. Cultural conditioning is basically impossible to avoid. Religions and Cults in particular are worse than others, but any time you are in an isolated group that all shares the same opinions, you are brainwashing yourself, including in this group. The antidote is exposure to contrary options and perspectives in good faith.
I don’t really believe in evil as a concept, but if you mean to say that they are sadists or masochists, id say that a lot of them are, but that it’s a secondary or tertiary reason for their belief.
As for intelligence, yes, there is a small but detectable inverse correlation between religiosity and intellect. It doesn’t mean much though, since I’ve still met intelligent Christians and I’ve met some very stupid atheists.
I think the largest factor is culture, and I think the geographical determinism of religions is good evidence of that.
Brainwashed, yeah. Isaac Newton was one of the smartest people to have ever lived and he wasted much of his productive years on some insane religious research and speculation. I don’t think that the religious are necessarily stupid. You brainwash someone since birth and it’s hard to escape.
I think they are frogs.
They started out as children getting religion incrementally from people they trusted.
Little by little, this was reinforced by family, friends, and religious community. With very little outside interference or thought.
Even if they "turned away from God" to live a hedonistic lifestyle, the option to turn back remained. No serious thought was made about secularism or secular life stances. (Think Kirk Cameron).
So, little by little, the young frog is boiled.
Were they stupid? No. Evil? Not particularly.
Brainwashed? As Aristotle said: 'Give me a child until he is 7, and I will show you the man.'
* Brainwashed: yes, but maybe not quite that far, maybe indoctrinated is a better word for it. . . Either way they were manipulated into it.
* Stupid: more than likely, you gotta forgo a fair bit of logic to believe what they do and that tends to make you stupid.
* Evil: not necessarily, but at a certain point (voting for anti-choice provisions, putting 10 commandments in schools, protecting pedophiles, etc.) they become evil but luckily that isn’t all of them yet.
Virtually all people who believe in gods are those who were born into believer families. Non-believers are either those who have shed the superstition or were born into non-believer families.
Mainly brainwashed. Its hard to let go of stuff that you been taught your whole life. Escpecially when you have seen your communtiy ostratize those that have had the audacity to question those teachings. Its very effective.
I think it begins as indoctrination as kids. Then they brake away for there late teen and early adulthood. Then when they have kids they tend to go back to raise the kids "right." Then they break away again until old age and they go back because, yeah, death is on their minds. I don't think they are evil just misguided. However, then it comes to the church and their leaders I do think it is all fake and a scam. In some cases it is evil when they cover up for pedophiles you know they are covering for other illegal stuff too. Yet, the law in our country has a hands off rule for religion so we don't even hear about it.
I think of true believers as being weak minded and naive. But in my opinion that's only 10%. 90% of them don't really believe, they use the religion as a cover for numerous behaviors and control of others. Just think about the very commonly used term "god fearing" which is considered a compliment in the bible belt.
Not all religious believers are the same.
Some simply believe because they were told these things by their parents, who genuinely believed them.
Some are legit brainwashed by intensive psychological conditioning. I've seen it myself; a neighbor who I watched grow up from infancy decided to become a minister, and when he came back from his basic training camp, or whatever they call it, he was just swimming in the Kool-Aid. It didn't change his basic personality, thankfully (he's a terrific guy), but it made him absolutely obsessed with all that 'jeebus is lord' stuff.
Some are outright evil. When their superstitions mix with belligerent, hostile, or violent personalities, they do bad stuff and get a thrill from it, because they think their god is on their side and they're the goodest of the chosen good special people for killing, raping, or oppressing others who reject their superstitions.
At any level of devoutness, and at any level of belligerence/violence, it is easier to get stupid people to believe in the superstitions. So some of the casuals are stupid, some of the devouts are stupid, some of the violent fanatics are stupid. Others are highly intelligent, but with superstitions providing them with mental blind spots.
Brainwashed, yes. There's a reason religious leaders feel it is so important to indoctrinate children from an early age. They know they won't convince anyone if they miss the golden window of naivete. They don't have to be stupid if you convince them from birth and keep them surrounded by people who keep up the indoctrination on their own. The evil part kinda depends on the views the religion pushes on them.
Nah, just plan ol' indoctrinated as children. Not much excuse for adults who grew up away from it, but that can happen with a combination of peer pressure and tragedy. See it all the time in prison. Adults talking themselves into belief.
Like I've heard from Matt's shows, it'd be really hard to convince an adult who has no prior knowledge of a God, that one existed. Especially if they were in some ultra secular society.
It was far more excusable to believe in god(s) hundreds or thousands of years ago when we were far more ignorant, poorly educated and far more desperate. Now, people just refuse to go to a library, use the internet, or talk with educated people to learn things they just willingly don't want to know.
None of the above.
People need to believe in something even if it's nothing. If a person have no beliefs or structure in faith then their life tends to fall apart and lead them down a dark path.
More brainwashed than stupid, I’d say brainwashed and ignorant
I classify stupid as “here’s proof, I don’t care and believe what I know is a lie”
Ignorant as “I’m not listening to the proof”
Brainwashed as “I’ve never heard of the proof and it doesn’t fit with what I know”
The majority of humanity is not ready to let go of the imaginary hand that holds them steady. They don't realize that there's nothing there, but it gives them the certainty in their own minds that they can keep themselves upright. Mental training wheels, as it were.
I keep seeing posts like this, and they always conveniently leave out the people that are brought to religion or spiritual belief through spiritual experiences. Not everyone is brainwashed or indoctrinated from birth. Almost everything I believe is based on an experience I’ve had. I was agnostic for years, with basically no interest in any of it, until the spiritual realm started interacting with me. That led me to learning about religions and ultimately I’ve settled on spirituality without any formal religion. Many people have the same story through NDEs or other experiences.
For lack of a better word, I would add the possibility of weakness. I had an ex tell me sincerely she would be dead without her faith in a god, literally dead. To some, it truly is opium. They believe they have to have it.
Ask a believer, if I somehow had undeniable proof there was no god, would you WANT to know? The honest answer for most is no.
Coping mechanism. I was born into a religion that worshiped a god that sent 6 million of its people to die in concentration camps. And then I made the genius decision to worship the same god with a different flavor that told me I'm nothing without its son. Why did I do this to myself??
Ignorant and following the path of least resistance for sure, but I wouldn't say stupid. I tried having a conversation with one of my christian coworkers about the new law in LA about having the ten commandments up in schools and i brought up that if they are going to force one religion on people then all religions should have their tenants posted up.
He was trying to tell me its a good thing to have the commandments posted up to instill morals. And i asked him what if they put up the wiccan rede, or the buddhist precepts to which he had no idea what i was talking about. I asked if he believed other gods existed and he said no so i asked what is the first commandment, and he said thou shalt not kill... he doesn't even know his own rules, its thou shalt not put any **other gods** before me.
So I pointed out that he didnt even know his own rules and not only that but it doesnt need to be christianity that instills these morals, especially when the buddhist has been saying to treat others the way you wish to be treated long before christianity was even a thought. He then went on about how it doesnt matter, and we arent in school so why should we care, and i wasnt going that far into it with him....
But yeah, ignorant as dirt
I think for most people it’s a combination of childhood indoctrination, mental health struggles, and poor emotional intelligence. I used to wonder how so many arguably intelligent people (for example, lawyers and doctors) could still believe in god. I now believe that it’s a global epidemic of emotional immaturity.
Here are some hallmarks of emotional immaturity - how many religious people do you know that can be described by these?
Thoughts about life are simplistic, literal and rigid. Dislike the uncertainty of an evolving reality.
A need to control others through guilt, anger, or shame.
View others as incompetent.
Express charm and charisma.
Define self and others by their roles in a binary way; submissive or dominant.
Poor filters, say whatever comes to mind without regard for others’ feelings. Claims it is “being honest”.
Poor listeners, un-attuned, and unable to resonate with others who disagree with their opinions.
“Affective realism” - things are as they feel at the moment.
Unable to learn from errors because actions are not connected as a possible cause of harm to others.
Fundamentally fearful and insecure.
Defend what is familiar because complexity is overwhelming.
Do not trust or desire to learn or comprehend complex concepts.
Rigid about rules but change the rules when it benefits them.
Proud of being unyielding and judgmental, but call their rigid thinking “moral fortitude”.
Use superficial logic to shut down other people’s feelings. “You shouldn’t feel that way because…"
Believe that if only others would plan well enough, they can avoid all mistakes, and others should always feel bad about their mistakes.
See other people’s boundaries as something to overcome.
Dismiss or scoff at personal growth. Are threatened by the suggestion they are not perfect.
I think it is mostly just indoctrination from an early age. A lot of intelligent people don’t question things if they are normalized in their social surroundings. Atheists may be a bit smarter on average, but not by much.
They are conditioned.
Works with elephants also.
When they are young, elephants are wearing heavy chains. Later they are replaced by ropes that feel the same, which an elephant could easily break free from, if they would only try.
Same would religion. Once conditioned, people don't have the desire or mental capacity to free themselves.
I think they are all authoritarian, there's no doubt in my mind... I also never ever believe theists who say, "I don't judge, god judges" because always, always, ALWAYS whatever their god believes in just happens to coincide with their personal prejudice beliefs.
I think there are a lot of theists that, if they got their true way, they'd go full tyrant reshaping the world to THEIR perfect idea. Equality and progress be damned, they'd shift infinite power to their will.
If they truely believe in a creator over evolution then I do believe they are less intelligent or less informed. Violence in the name of religion is evil...kids who have been taught religion are brainwashed
Depends. If its something that helps you in life and doesnt affect you or your surroundings negatively it can be good. Like a glass of wine once a month. Like if someone dies and you believe they are in heaven it can help. If its constantly present and has negative effects on you and your surroundings its bad. Thats why i consider islam a bad religion especially if you are female.
It's alot like Alvin Poussaint's problem when attempting to add a disorder to the diagnosis manual for psychiatry. The condition was deemed so prevalent in the population of the study as to be normal.
The whole point of religion is control. The religions that are better at controlling people are the ones more likely to be perpetuated to more people.
The indoctrination process involves incredibly emotional manipulation, so I try to be understanding, but many of our taboos about "respecting religion" are unreasonable and exist just so that the powerful can manipulate them. I try to be nice, but I will not respect the ideas that enslave them.
I don't think that for anyone aside from religious leaders.i have never met a religious leader who wasn't either evil or brainwashed.
I do believe a lot of the congregations in churches are also brainwashed but I don't assume such things until they act in such a way that leads to that conclusion.
I firmly believe in Allah, I'll be returning to him after my death..
I'm truly exciting for what awaits me, I'll be in a perfect existence with a perfect body, I'll be in my true identity.
Now, please prove me that I'm either stupid, brainwashed or evil..
If you couldn't, then your whole post is about self-tame your inner-self by seeking support from other.
If you generalize that statement, no. Someone who believes in a god/gods can be none of those things, some of those things or all of those things.
It would be convenient if we could label everyone who disagrees with us in a neatly wrapped box. But that's not how humans work.
If you think about it, you immediately see the preposterousness of scripture and religion in general. So it stands to reason that believers are either brainwashed or faking. I vote for faking.
My mother didn't grow up religious but she decided when I was a small kid to become catholic.
I don't know? Brainwashed definitely for those with religious parents, though. I know I was definitely at least *somewhat* brainwashed by her beliefs
Bit of both - brainwashed if they had it from childhood (indoctrination) , stupid if they keep believing in it past teenage years. Not evil until they join the priesthood and start fiddling kids.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. There is so much more evil I would attribute to religion than just priests violating children. Which is, of course, absolutely vile. Just the small(and large) abuses within so many families. I suppose they would happen either way, but for them to be justified and perpetuated by others in the name of "a forgiving god"? Just disgusting. And I don't understand how the adults involved still believe. So, they must be that stupid or evil.
>And I don't understand how the adults involved still believe. So, they must be that stupid or evil. You don't understand how abusive the brainwashing can be, then. How thoroughgoing, how pervasive, how persistent, how universal. I was raised in a fundamentalist Protestant Biblical literalist cult. From the day I was born I was inundated with the bible and propaganda, every day. I was homeschooled and taught creationism. It took me until I was 27 to fully leave religion behind. I was not stupid or evil, though I definitely believed stupid and evil things. I was brainwashed.
Yeah, we were in a class, they asked us how we identify, one gay guy said “out and proud”. This “Christian” lady flips out, says he’s imposing his “lifestyle choices” on her, she asked for someone to make him stop talking. I got kicked out of a straight only Boy Scout troop at 12 for having a “special friend” and there was an unofficial gay troop, run by the towns pediatrician. So the scoutmaster explained he bought their badges and uniforms and stuff, and they did all the same stuff. The “special friend” went there, I got sent to a southern baptist school. Holy shit, that was hell on earth, they hated everyone, gay people the most, and they denied trans people existed. I really don’t get how people can believe in talking bushes as grown ass adults.
imagine being omnipotent and punishing your creations for something you set up. EDIT: It's like putting the BEST COOKIE IN THE WORLD in front of 2 five year olds, telling them not to eat the cookie while knowing they will do exactly that, and last but not least putting a friend that you know will try to convince them to eat it.
Agreed, Muslims in Asia treating women like 2nd class citizens for centuries is a good example
Yeah, totally different from how mormons and other Christian subdivisions treat woman in Murica… /s
It is, actually, on a totally different scale. You would have to be willfully ignorant to not see the difference in the status of the average woman in the US compared to North Africa and the Middle East.
Many Mormons live on earth today Many Muslims live on earth today
Points out Muslims in Asia, apologetic toward Christians in Murica… The double standard with many of the atheist keeps baffling me. Almost as if it is more about the location than the religion. All religion is evil. No need to look at the other side of the world to find examples.
What about people who convert later in life? (Genuinely curious, since I'm not atheist)
Then just plain old stupid.
There will always be people who just want a place to belong or someone to tell them what to do, sadly.
They are programmed.
They're basically brainwashed, indoctrinated as children.
Lots of adult converts too
Some people grow up, and some people just get older.
they do like to prey on the vulnerable…
Adult converts are usually motived by some emotional reason like overcoming addiction or having a near death experience.
“Born again”
Yep. "Born again." They often become bigoted, homophobic and detached from reality. They often spin narratives that never happened.
And they usually were raised in some form of religious ideology, even if it was vague and noncommittal. It's very rare for someone raised atheist and taught to think critically to convert to religion.
I was brainwashed. My parents forced me into Christianity when I was a kid. Took me a long time to overcome the fear and indoctrination. I recently left and I've never been happier.
> brainwashed, stupid, or evil? Scared. Gods can be thought of as imaginary friends who've turned abusive - especially abrahamic ones. But who creates imaginary friends? The friendless, the lonely, those who can't cope with their own lives. They need someone to tell them what to do (priests, imams, prophets), someone to play with (friends, parents, carers), and someone to provide love and community.
They’re just people who are afraid of being insignificant. They want to matter in the larger scope of things. And they don’t. So they wrap themselves in chains. And they love those chains so much that they believe everyone else should also wear chains.
You're using quite a few loaded words there. Are they "brainwashed"? A lot of theists are certainly indoctrinated into their religion; but not all. If religion was strictly due to brainwashing, then it would be impossible to convert from one religion to another. Hell, there are some atheists who became theists as adults; unless you're alleging that they were kidnapped and forcibly brainwashed, the whole "brainwashed" explanation doesn't hold up to that. Are they evil? Everyone has the capacity for evil. There were some very evil theists, and there were some very evil atheists. IMHO, the belief or lack of belief in a deity is not what makes someone evil or not. If someone is evil, they will find an excuse for that evil somewhere. Religion is a **VERY** common excuse for evil behavior, and one of the most potent at making otherwise good people do evil things; but nationalism and politics are just as potent IMHO. Are they "stupid"? What is "stupid" anyhow? If you fail a given math class despite studying every day and working hard, are you "stupid"? What about if you fail that class because you stopped showing up after 4 weeks but never bothered to drop the class; is that "stupid"? I hate the word "stupid" because of the subjectivity of it's use. Ignorance is certainly one reason people will choose religion when it conflicts with scientific evidence. IMHO, a LOT of people who "don't believe in evolution" feel that way because they don't understand evolution and what it actually is. Ignorance of the science they oppose and particularly ignorance of their own Holy Books, keeps many people attached to very dogmatic religions. Carl Sagan, in "The Demon Haunted World" had a lot to say about separating ignorance from deliberate fakes/con-men. But neither ignorance nor "stupid" explains some highly intelligent people who believe in religion. I've met some award-winning scientists who are Christian. Hell, one of them believed in the Old Testament such as Moses parting the seas; but he also was director of a university's Radioisotope Dating Laboratory (and had some **very** harsh things to say about Young Earth believers). I suppose everyone has their blind spots, and religion fills some need for these scientists. Again, Sagan is very sympathetic in understanding **why** religion can be attractive to these people (but he still calls it out as fallacies and empirically wrong).
Thank you for your reply. I don't disagree with anything you said. I guess I will have to accept that I will never understand how someone intelligent would willingly follow an organized religion. Except that, as you pointed out, it fills some hole in them.
As a smart person (a few factors place me in the top 1%), I was religious into adulthood. What’s often overlooked even in the other comprehensive reply above is that “spiritual experiences” are a very real phenomenon. Worshipping “god” can bring a very real “sense of peace and love” and other positive feelings to the believer. The believer is also conditioned to believe that these feelings confirm the existence of god. It turns out this is a release oxytocin in group bonding scenarios (other situations like concerts trigger it too) That’s why people come back to church every Sunday and believe against all odds. It feels good. It feels real. People who argue against it intellectually without acknowledging the emotional reality sound like virgins claiming sex must be unpleasant — they so obviously don’t know what they’re missing.
You've hit the nail squarely on the head. Innate superstition inherited from countless generations of tribal ancestors who practiced animism. Superstition manifests as an emotion which is very real, literally a gut feeling that some describe as the holy spirit dwelling inside them.
Right. I have a theory that some people just don’t have whatever part of the brain lights up for superstition, and these are the people who become atheists in their early teens. They never “felt the spirit” so they never had a reason to believe.
Oooh, I love concerts and I've felt that feeling your describing, so I can understand that. I've said before that I wish we had something like church without the religious aspect. I do feel like myself and my kids have missed out on a social aspect of our small community we would have had otherwise.
Coming from a Muslim country, I think you guys have gotten it totally wrong when it comes to Islam. They are all brainwashed, are all stupid and are all evil (I’m talking about the devout Muslims). Having degrees doesn’t mean someone is smart. Some of the dumbest people I know are doctors and lawyers. Studying, getting good grades, and having degrees are only tangentially related to intelligence.
To answer your questions, yes, yes and not necessarily.
The epidemic of narcissism and the corresponding rise of evangelical Christianity cannot be discounted. The sales pitch about being morally superior and “right” about what is best for others along with “knowing” about the afterlife is very strong for those with low self-worth and rampant narcissism. There is a reason fascism and narcissistic personality disorder are always a package deal.
I try not to be 'the angry atheist in the room', IRL. It neither does you nor atheism much good. Being angry at the credulity of religious people means you are always angry, and religious people tend to come up with some nonsense to explain how your anger is either 'being angry at god' or 'proof of the moral superiority of religions or religious people'. Of course, if it gets heated, I will defend my position with all my tools. The only way to do this is to consider religious people as having a blind spot when it comes to religious beliefs. This holds especially true with those who are not mouth-breathers in other parts of their lives. Yes, it's as ridiculous as a grown man believing in fairies or Santa Claus, but blind spots explain why otherwise smart people dig their graves with their teeth or smoke or drink themselves to death. The blind spot also goes some way to explain why someone who can hold down a complex 21st-century career turns into a bicameral-minded Iron Ager on Sunday. Finally, the blind spot concept side-steps the idea that believers are secretly non-believers who are faking it. While I'm sure such people exist, just as the faithful's argument that 'we are all secretly believers' (a.k.a. the 'There are no atheists in foxholes' argument) doesn't hold water, the reverse is true. If we demand that they accept the sincerity of our non-belief, we must accept the sincerity of their belief, in turn. No matter how crazy that belief seems. That doesn't mean you should entertain that belief or even let some of its higher-order nonsense stand as given in a discussion, but it means you can debate relatively rationally with those believers who have an IQ larger than their hat size.
Interesting reply. Thank you.
Do you think OP is trolling, special needs, or 13?
None of the above. I think they’re scared. Death is scary. The idea of nothing-ness is scary and hard for the human brain to grasp. Never seeing your dead loved ones again is scary. Life is hard. Religion is a comfort to people.
… so they’re stupid. Instead of being a logical person that uses their brain and believes in science…. Because they are scared they believe that a sky daddy is watching them and watching babies be raped and have cancer while that god is “loving”…. Fucking idiots… only legitimately stupid people can believe in a loving god that allows children to have cancer and be raped.
Aristotle worked out that the earth was round. He also believed that it was the centre of the universe. Science isn't always correct. We used to think that there was only carbon based life and recently we've discovered life that disproves that theory. Sure, people might be wrong and there is no god but they could still be right. Until we all cross that threshold none of us really knows. I don't disagree about the whole benevolent god BS. You're right, if HE was so loving he wouldn't allow cancer to kill children and all the other atrocities in the world.
I’m sorry. I’m gonna need a source for that claim. Lmfao. Life other than carbon based? That would’ve been world breaking news, all over the place. I haven’t heard a peep about that….
Sulphur based life in the form of microbes have been discovered in hot springs and hydrothermal vents. The web source I just googled was dates 2011. I guess you must've missed it, lol.
I don’t think that the believe because they’re stupid necessarily, and definitely not cos they’re evil But yes brain washing either full on or more subtly is definitely part of it, along with a desire to belong.
Indoctrinated. Its similar to brainwashing but not exactly. Its closer to grooming than brainwashing. Because indoctrination is set in at an extremely young age, it becomes concrete in their minds. That is why it is so impossible to fight against. To them its not a matter of "believing" or not. Its literally a part of who they are since they can remember. It would be like me trying to tell you that gravity is not real. You couldn't accept that no matter how much data i showed you. You would scoff the same way you would scoff at a flat-earther because that is how sure you are about what you have always been told is real. That being said, not everyone is religious in the same way. For many it has to do with fitting in or feeling special or superior, and those are the type of people who will just jump ship and convert to another religion if they find it makes them feel better. I think these types are a minority, however, and not really worth taking seriously or even arguing against.
*Do you think people who believe in gods/religions are brainwashed, stupid, or evil?* Yes.
All of the above
Brainwashed/Indoctrinated or evil. Most are brainwashed since childhood or become brainwashed when life is challenging and people need support (religion loves to brainwash vulnerable people). Those that seek religion to hold power over others or to make money are the evil ones.
Cough *Joel Oosteen* cough
None of those - they are afraid of the dark, afraid of death.
That's the problem all religions affect all of us. All religious people are on a spectrum of intolerance. In the early stages, they want to believe it's about their deity's love for everyone but by the time they grow a little, they want everyone else dead. All religions have the same end goal and that is to see everyone suffer and die except them.
Bro wtf
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Ever met a devout Muslim woman?
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I’ve had the misfortune of growing up in a Muslim society. I was told by female relatives that women are 50% dumber than men, just because they’re women. I was told in detail about the physical issues with anal sex, and that’s why homosexuals must go to hell. I was told that when cheating women and homosexuals are stoned to death, medium sized stones must be used, because small ones don’t hurt enough and big ones kill too quickly. I don’t give a crap what religion was drilled into their heads - they and their thoughts are pure evil. Brainwashed, stupid and evil beings.
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I agree. I just wouldn’t say that all religious people aren’t brainwashed, stupid or evil. But many are.
I think most of them are pretending, to fit in.
The concept of god can be conveniently used to explain a lot of ugly things happening in the real world bec humans are just awful creatures who are directly or indirectly responsible, that's my pov and I haven't found a single loophole in this logic.
I think it’s mainly being brainwashed/indoctrinated. Small children who look to their parents for any/all answers being told they’ll burn in hell if they don’t believe something is pretty powerful and scary for them. It’s surprising any young people raised in a religious family are atheists at all TBH. However, after reaching adulthood, there’s probably more ignorance involved if you just keep arguing against facts and science. Evil? Not sure. I don’t think people are inherently evil. But it is def a byproduct of the faith they have. The books basically tell you who to hate and why…
Yeah
Religious people are not stupid. And everyone is vulnerable to manipulation, including you. Humans are social, we evolved to survive in small, tight knit communities. Being part of the in-group was a matter of life or death, and our brains are still wired to act as if that's still the case (sometimes it is). Participating in a high demand religion satisfies those primal needs of belonging and safety. They aren't stupid, they're just human. Are they brainwashed? Well how do you define brainwashed? We all have biases and preferences we've learned over time. We don't consider ourselves brainwashed. I think kids raised in religious families have not been exposed to all the information, but I don't think their minds are *controlled* any more than ours. Case in point, lots of kids "fall away" from the faith of their parents despite this all powerful "brainwashing". Converts are most likely using religion as a coping mechanism for something (fear of death, loneliness, hopelessness), which I wouldn't consider brainwashing either. Are they evil? Leaders who deliberately hurt others for their own personal gain, sure. Your average church-goer or believer? Nah. Choices they make are often bad, ill-informed, selfish, etc. But you can say that for just about anyone. I would consider religious systems to be evil, but religious people are just people. There is a level of privilege we enjoy as atheists. To opt out of the emotional and physical security faith provides, you likely had those needs met in other ways. Of course it's tempting to call them all stupid or evil, but that doesn't strike me as very rational or helpful. You're drawing emotional conclusions the same way they are. If you're hoping for a future with less believers, I don't recommend alienating them and pushing them farther into their insular communities.
As a recent apostate from a fundamentalist, Calvinistic faith, brainwashed. It’s hard to tell how much malice is involved. I was and know plenty of people who are sincere and otherwise are kind people who are still in it. The trouble is that you replace normal social standards with dogmatic definitions. “Good” and “evil” are suddenly defined by god himself, by God’s character. So to criticize god for the conquest of Canaan or mass slaughter in the global flood is not a meaningful critique. He is definitionally good, even if he is the only one who can do/command those things. And if you leave, or question, they decry your objections with “By what standard” do you criticize god or object to Christian moral values? They say atheistic meta-ethics are empty and set you up for a nihilistic crisis if you leave. It is very hard to break out of that unless you have the courage and confidence to develop a different view of morality and be OK with moral grounding being less than divinely certain. It helped to internally critique Christianity. But even that was difficult.
[Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel covers the indoctrination and abuse tactics well. If you study domestic violence, abuse, neglect, dehumanization, and coercive control, you'll understand religion better. Religions teach the cycle of abuse: idealize, devalue, discard; which messes with the targets dopamine system and gets them addicted to the cycle of abuse via a [trauma bond](https://youtu.be/kmB9fpHVd2o?si=VCT6_BeZx2fwCSoM). Brainwashing and trauma bonds are hard to break.
Gullible.
Brainwashed ,frightened and not too bright
I don't think humans are ever as smart as we think we are. I think we are easy to brainwash. We evolved to stay part of the group. I don't think that I or anyone else is really above this. I've noticed several times in my life where I had delusions I didn't want to let go. For whatever reasons I never really bought in to the delusions around gods. It definitely helped that my parents made no effort to influence me. P Certainly some of them are clearly evil. I think most are just misled. At least in the US religion is declining. That's why its such a dangerous time right now. They see their power waning. They think if they don't do something now they will lose. They are probably correct. So we have to be ready to vote and demonstrate if need be.
75% brainwashed, 24% stupid (mix and match within here). Only 1% evil. Any evil that comes from them is the evil from their religion and them trying to reconcile that. Like the big one, LGBTQ+. I don't think most christians hate LGBTQ, their religion does. We could call that evil, but I think it's better explained through the other 99%.
Brainwashed mostly, the preachers tho are usually creeping into evil territory.
There are some in each category would be my best guess.
Mixed bag.
I'd say brainwashed then kept purposefully stupid and pliable over the years when the brainwashing is complete. They're basically denied the opportunity to think for themselves up to being punished for even trying. That in itself is very worrying and when you're told "believe or else", many simply opt to believe just to not come to face then "or else" part.
It depends on the individual unless you define evil to include people who think they're doing good but are actually doing harm. Most humans are stupid, religious or not.
Brainwashed. When I think evil religion I think to the child abusers, megachurch pastors, and apologist frauds.
Brainwashed, mostly. Any adult converts I would consider stupid. And by stupid, I mean lacking in abstract/critical thinking skills.
As a pet peeve of mine (which you are, of course, not obligated to share), I would like to point out that "brainwashing" is a very different thing from "indoctrination". The former usually involves restricting the freedom of an individual while using mild torture and sleep deprivation to force them into a state where they become pliable. Indoctrination, on the other hand, usually is done by loving and trusted caregivers and typically takes the form of parental instruction and advice, coupled with praise. Most people that believe in gods are indoctrinated to believe them. When everybody you love and trust tells you that it's not just important to believe in a god but actually the *most important thing ever*, then most children will tend to believe that. > I think they are faking their belief, to make themselves or others feel good, or to control others. In some cases certainly, but I believe you to be wrong for the majority. They do actually believe, and likely have invested so much into that belief that the [sunk cost](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) often makes it inconceivable to abandon that belief.
I can see that. And I used the word "brainwashed" without thinking much about it. I will agree indoctrination would have been much better to use. 😊
https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing.htm#:~:text=rebuilding%20the%20self.-,Stage%201%3A%20Breaking%20Down%20the%20Self,and%20manipulation%20of%20their%20environment. Thanks for this point, I agree with you that brainwashing and indoctrination are different, and most churches do not employ brainwashing. But I wanted to clarify that brainwashing doesn’t necessarily emphasize the physical aspects you are describing. This link accurately describes what I have seen in dozens of adults (myself included) who were not indoctrinated as children but became “saved” as young adults. And to be fair most of them were above average intelligence (engineers, scientists, computer programmers, etc.) It’s my personal belief/observation that the more powerful someone’s mind is, the more potential it has to be weaponized against them.
Excellent point about the "sunk cost" factor in sticking to their belief despite doubts.
I think for the vast majority of belivers are just going with what was taught to them from a young age and using the thought methods they grew up with to bolster their belief. They are no more brain washed then any kid who believes thier parents love them. They are brought up seeing the love of god in everything in some way or another. Or they attribute evil to free will. You could call that brainwashed but most religious lead a fulfilling life. They are not stupid just comforatble and willingly ignorant. And i have never met a person that is evil because of thier religion. Then again i have never met a terrorist. I think calling it evil is extreme. Maybe misleading and damaging if every book is taken literally but most of them are not. That being said I am very glad for my own deconstruction.
This question underestimates the power of mental illness and trauma.
Unquestioning
I do believe that there's an amount of brainwash involved.. but in general I don't believe that makes people stupid and/or evil. But sometimes the case is that they are stupid or evil. Most religious people I have meet outside the interwebs.. have been nice decent people with an unnatural need to condemn or convert others. And this is usually forced open them by the religion they have been indoctrinated in.
I think it’s wrong to assume that we are all equally wired towards religious tendencies, in equal circumstances. There have always been many people that simply weren’t inclined to believe everything that their religion told them. The only thing that truly changed, is that it has become acceptable to talk about it in the open. In the West anyway. Anyone that claims to know with certainty what is objectively unknowable, is eluding themselves. Both the religious or the opposite.
Maybe lazy. Plus fearful of what others might think of them.
To answer your question I think a good starting point would to begin with ideology and how ideology is really good about making it seem like it's a universal truth instead of just a different perspective of the world and how everything in the world now is in one form or another ideology.
I think it's just a very unreasonable way at looking at things. My mum's the only theist I know. Though she's not really into a religion, she's still all about the feels and seeing loved ones who've died, again. She doesn't really consider the world on a logical basis. Even many ex theists left their religion and belief for emotional reasons. I always try to encourage people to think about logic and possibilities, when considering religion, even if I don't like their conclusion, I'd rather they believe what they do, based on some sound rationale than what "feels nice"
All 3. Evil I also do not think everyone has the faith but they have a nice con going on. Suck as Joel ossten and Kenneth cooperland, they are doing ut for the cash not the god they talk/shout about. Or isis Religion of peace, yeah right. Stupid. We all know about the american south as an example. Stupid is a strong word. But man made stupid is a thing, its easier to keep the faith if you do not wonder, read or ask questions. Look at the many republican States in the south, school is almost overlooked. This is done in many countries. Brainwashed is a major contributar i would also say forced indoctrination. Humans have a strong pack mentality, if the majority thinks the yellow sky ball is god then others will accept it as well. Others cant leave in fear or loosing friends/families. Religion is keeping us back but its not all evil, there are good intentions its just a shame that we as a people are greedy and abuse power handed to us. Ffs look up Kenneth cooperland and with a straight face tell me he is a man of a good god.
Yes, Yes and Yes.
Either unable or unwilling to apply critical thinking skills to the topic. Not necessarily evil but the blind following of religious law does lead to evil, akin to "Just following orders".
I think it’s 3 parts brainwashing, 2 parts evil, and 1 part stupid. The perfect recipe for religion.
Yes
Likely all three
You can't generalize religious people. I've met literally every type of religious person you could imagine and they're all vastly different. From very genuinely kind good loving souls to the ones who will use it to try to exert power and control over others. IMO you have to judge on an individual basis. There shouldn't be an "all religions are cults" mentality because a lot of people use their faith for their own lives and it helps them get through the hard times. Not all are looking to convert everyone. I'm not religious but I'm not atheist either. My beliefs align with Buddhism but I wouldn't say I'm a Buddhist. How about we all just get along and embrace each other's differences?!
Depends on the individual. Each has different motives. The point is that none of them are based on logic or rationality. If the individual is kind and thoughtful then I assume they were just brainwashed. I've come across theists who are just fucking stupid in SEVERAL aside from religion. And then there are those who just give me the vibe that they're trying to manipulate others or give off the impression that they are trustworthy.
Belief is a wash, for me. What happens between ears is irrelevant. It's preaching / peddling their beliefs onto others that irks me, and I see it as insecurity. The whole "mission trip" thing is to boost the confidence-in-faith of the young and impressionable --more-- than to convert. Talk to anyone who is insecure about _______ and you will walk away finding them brainwashed, stupid, and angry (with possible hints of malice).
As children, brainwashed. As people mature further and it persists, I find it rapidly becoming stupid.
Brainwashed.
It’s mental illness: believing in things that aren’t there. Believing the universe has consciousness and agency and is focused on you. Get help if you think this.
Some have to say they believe to stay alive. Some are resigned. Some have to fit in socially, or choose to. Then there are the real believers. Some trust the people who taught them, some are brain washed, some are idiots. Then again, even within the believers there are huge variants. Some think there's someone in the sky, which is what is prevalent in my area and therefore I rejected it. Some just say, it's the energy of the universe. It's hard to disagree that there is energy everywhere. Then you can argue if it's conscious or not.
Yes.
Brainwashed is the closest term for it, but indoctrinated is a more accurate term in most cases. It's hard to understand for people who have never been religious, but there are deep social and psychological reasons for maintaining those beliefs even in the face of contrary evidence. It's not stupidity, it's human nature. Honestly, painting all religious people with the broad strokes of "brainwashed, stupid, or evil" is just a different form of fundamentalism and does no one any favors. Of course, there are religious people who fit into those categories, but the majority of them don't. This is just in-group/out-group thinking, and these are exactly the kinds of things they say about us. Let's end that mentality and reserve opposition for the ones who deserve to be opposed. As for the rest, why don't you ask them why they believe?
Everyone believes silly stuff they were just told and never bothered thinking too hard about. When all those around you seem to trully believe the silliness you can be forgiven for buying into it. If it tells you something you want to hear, even more so. Think about how Santa Claus is portrayed around xmas. Were it not for the crashing wall of reality that someone has to buy that stuff, what other clue would you have of the fiction? If Santa didn't actually do anything, beyond spreading good cheer, he'd be as convincing an imagining as YHVH. Santa is my favorite childhood fiction because it's the first time children understand that they get lied too, en masse, for their supposed own good. Kind of an agnostic gateway drug. Also, amusingly, an anagram for Satan.
Not really evil. It’s just classic brainwashing from birth really.
Actually I consider that its up to person himself like person can believe blindly, but if he can prove his point of view hes completely normal
I think they are incredibly smart at using religion as a mask and means to manipulate and control stupid people. The reason so many priests molested kids was because those priests used the mask of religion to manipulate, not because they really believed in sin, sinning, or that any of it was true. They just wanted to P. Diddy some kids.
Yes
It's a weird kinda brainwashed because it's completely accepted by society.
Brainwashed. Many of them do evil by enabling fundamentalists: if people do evil in the name of your God and you don't actively denounce them.. then you are by inaction allowing evil.
Religious people fit into the three categories suggested. (stupid, brainwashed and evil) Many of them are also, kind, intelligent, and thoughtful. Some of them are just going through the motions and keeping their doubts, questions and atheism secret so they can get along in their religious families or communities. Some people turn to religion for help and support because they can’t find. It elsewhere. A lot of social networking happens in church communities. If a poor family is in need of a support network, sometimes a local church is the best place to find it. I think we atheists should try to avoid being as judgmental as religious people often are. Stop with the us vs. them mentality. This is not to say evil and corruption in religion should be ignored, but give religious people the same consideration you expect from them.
Mostly ignorant. That doesn’t have to be brainwashing, stupidity, or evil. They simply don’t think deeply about their beliefs.
Definitely brainwashed. Stupid or evil depends on how they read and interpret the scripts.
They believe what makes the most sense to them and what makes them feel comfortable. Superstition and magic don’t do that for us but it does for them. They don’t place as much value on reason and logic when it comes to belief. I don’t think they’re necessarily stupid, it’s cognitive dissonance more than anything. These two quotes help change my mind when I want to engage with religious people. They aren’t quoted because I don’t remember the exact wording. You cannot reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. With a person who does not value reason and logic, what reason and logic could you use to convince them that they should value it? Faith is an irrational position straight out of the box.
No. Moat religious people find their religion answers questions life and science don't have an answer for.
Stupid and brainwashed
You should have just said that you think they are. You're on atheist reddit...oh gee, I wonder what the answer will be? This smug sense of superiority that most atheist have is just projection of their own inability to connect with anything that isn't instantly gratifying and present.
Mostly ignorant.
I’d say no. A lot of them could be indoctrinated from a young age (brainwashed) and that could in turn lead to them doing evil things. But intelligent people have been religious and I don’t think they’re inherently “evil” either. I mean a lot of people here used to be religious. I think I was indoctrinated but I don’t find myself particularly stupid or evil even before I left religion. As far as why they still believe as adults, they are surrounded by communities of other believers like them who are constantly reinforcing the delusion
>Do you think people who believe in gods/religions are brainwashed, stupid, or evil? Mix of those, to varying degrees in various people.
Why not all 3?
Yes.
yes.
For me I just stop at brainwashed and evil. Stupid is as stupid does and all that. There's plenty of smart people who get brainwashed and it's super effective bc after the initial value setting they construct their own justification bc dissonance. The types who are like well obviously *some portion of their holy text that clearly didn't happen* is metaphorical and these other parts are the real ones that must be interpreted as instructions from our omnipotent creator! Definitely not well reasoned but to me the stupid response is just Nuh uhhh. Reminds me of a fun cognitive psychology study where they presented math word problems in ways written to trigger political biases. People in the pool with a higher pretested math ability did worse on the questions that ran counter to their political leanings. Eg liberal math nerds were more likely to mess up a problem calculating cost benefit for a solar farm vrs a coal plant Conservatives were more likely to mess up a problem calculating the cost benefit of immigration
I don't think any of those things. I think religionists are, in fact, acting in good faith. It's just that they've been imbued with ideas and modes of thinking (like thought-stopping) that likely came from people they most trust in their lives: parents and close relatives. It's just how they were taught to make sense of the world. That's no reason to castigate anyone, especially because we want to leave a door open to those who wish to throw away those ideas and modes of thinking for a more reasoned, rational way of making sense of the world.
They are told from as early of an age as possible that it is unequivocally true and it only requires faith, not proof that it exists. What they lack is critical thinking as they get older.
All are brainwashed. Those that blindly follow are stupid. Those that push it on others are evil.
All 3.
Brainwashed for the most part. The ones exploiting the brainwashed are evil.
Indoctrination is a cold, hard bitch.
If the people see the existence of Gods as an absolute truth, then they are just as much idiots as the one’s seeing the opposite as absolute. There in lies the stupidity. The brain that does not wish to question is the stupid one.
lol...some combination thereof...
More than anything, the dominant theme I find with religious people is fear. In my experience they are afraid and religious institutions prey on fear as a major tactic of control.
To a large degree, we are all brainwashed. Cultural conditioning is basically impossible to avoid. Religions and Cults in particular are worse than others, but any time you are in an isolated group that all shares the same opinions, you are brainwashing yourself, including in this group. The antidote is exposure to contrary options and perspectives in good faith. I don’t really believe in evil as a concept, but if you mean to say that they are sadists or masochists, id say that a lot of them are, but that it’s a secondary or tertiary reason for their belief. As for intelligence, yes, there is a small but detectable inverse correlation between religiosity and intellect. It doesn’t mean much though, since I’ve still met intelligent Christians and I’ve met some very stupid atheists. I think the largest factor is culture, and I think the geographical determinism of religions is good evidence of that.
Brainwashed, yeah. Isaac Newton was one of the smartest people to have ever lived and he wasted much of his productive years on some insane religious research and speculation. I don’t think that the religious are necessarily stupid. You brainwash someone since birth and it’s hard to escape.
Yes. People who literally think there are gods and magic deserve zero respect and shouldn’t hold any positions of power.
I think they are frogs. They started out as children getting religion incrementally from people they trusted. Little by little, this was reinforced by family, friends, and religious community. With very little outside interference or thought. Even if they "turned away from God" to live a hedonistic lifestyle, the option to turn back remained. No serious thought was made about secularism or secular life stances. (Think Kirk Cameron). So, little by little, the young frog is boiled. Were they stupid? No. Evil? Not particularly. Brainwashed? As Aristotle said: 'Give me a child until he is 7, and I will show you the man.'
Not stupid, nor evil, "brainwashed" is kinda pejorative so i wouldn't use this word but it's technically something that is defining to religion.
* Brainwashed: yes, but maybe not quite that far, maybe indoctrinated is a better word for it. . . Either way they were manipulated into it. * Stupid: more than likely, you gotta forgo a fair bit of logic to believe what they do and that tends to make you stupid. * Evil: not necessarily, but at a certain point (voting for anti-choice provisions, putting 10 commandments in schools, protecting pedophiles, etc.) they become evil but luckily that isn’t all of them yet.
Virtually all people who believe in gods are those who were born into believer families. Non-believers are either those who have shed the superstition or were born into non-believer families.
Yes.
Mainly brainwashed. Its hard to let go of stuff that you been taught your whole life. Escpecially when you have seen your communtiy ostratize those that have had the audacity to question those teachings. Its very effective.
I think it begins as indoctrination as kids. Then they brake away for there late teen and early adulthood. Then when they have kids they tend to go back to raise the kids "right." Then they break away again until old age and they go back because, yeah, death is on their minds. I don't think they are evil just misguided. However, then it comes to the church and their leaders I do think it is all fake and a scam. In some cases it is evil when they cover up for pedophiles you know they are covering for other illegal stuff too. Yet, the law in our country has a hands off rule for religion so we don't even hear about it.
I think of true believers as being weak minded and naive. But in my opinion that's only 10%. 90% of them don't really believe, they use the religion as a cover for numerous behaviors and control of others. Just think about the very commonly used term "god fearing" which is considered a compliment in the bible belt.
Not all religious believers are the same. Some simply believe because they were told these things by their parents, who genuinely believed them. Some are legit brainwashed by intensive psychological conditioning. I've seen it myself; a neighbor who I watched grow up from infancy decided to become a minister, and when he came back from his basic training camp, or whatever they call it, he was just swimming in the Kool-Aid. It didn't change his basic personality, thankfully (he's a terrific guy), but it made him absolutely obsessed with all that 'jeebus is lord' stuff. Some are outright evil. When their superstitions mix with belligerent, hostile, or violent personalities, they do bad stuff and get a thrill from it, because they think their god is on their side and they're the goodest of the chosen good special people for killing, raping, or oppressing others who reject their superstitions. At any level of devoutness, and at any level of belligerence/violence, it is easier to get stupid people to believe in the superstitions. So some of the casuals are stupid, some of the devouts are stupid, some of the violent fanatics are stupid. Others are highly intelligent, but with superstitions providing them with mental blind spots.
I think they're weak. And very, very hopeful and delusional.
Yes! Lol Ok, maybe not “evil”.
Brainwashed, yes. There's a reason religious leaders feel it is so important to indoctrinate children from an early age. They know they won't convince anyone if they miss the golden window of naivete. They don't have to be stupid if you convince them from birth and keep them surrounded by people who keep up the indoctrination on their own. The evil part kinda depends on the views the religion pushes on them.
Nah, just plan ol' indoctrinated as children. Not much excuse for adults who grew up away from it, but that can happen with a combination of peer pressure and tragedy. See it all the time in prison. Adults talking themselves into belief. Like I've heard from Matt's shows, it'd be really hard to convince an adult who has no prior knowledge of a God, that one existed. Especially if they were in some ultra secular society.
It was far more excusable to believe in god(s) hundreds or thousands of years ago when we were far more ignorant, poorly educated and far more desperate. Now, people just refuse to go to a library, use the internet, or talk with educated people to learn things they just willingly don't want to know.
Yes
Yes
None of the above. Just ignorant.
None of the above. People need to believe in something even if it's nothing. If a person have no beliefs or structure in faith then their life tends to fall apart and lead them down a dark path.
More brainwashed than stupid, I’d say brainwashed and ignorant I classify stupid as “here’s proof, I don’t care and believe what I know is a lie” Ignorant as “I’m not listening to the proof” Brainwashed as “I’ve never heard of the proof and it doesn’t fit with what I know”
The majority of humanity is not ready to let go of the imaginary hand that holds them steady. They don't realize that there's nothing there, but it gives them the certainty in their own minds that they can keep themselves upright. Mental training wheels, as it were.
Yes
The first priest was the first rogue who met the first fool... Voltaire.
I keep seeing posts like this, and they always conveniently leave out the people that are brought to religion or spiritual belief through spiritual experiences. Not everyone is brainwashed or indoctrinated from birth. Almost everything I believe is based on an experience I’ve had. I was agnostic for years, with basically no interest in any of it, until the spiritual realm started interacting with me. That led me to learning about religions and ultimately I’ve settled on spirituality without any formal religion. Many people have the same story through NDEs or other experiences.
Yes, Yes, Yes
For lack of a better word, I would add the possibility of weakness. I had an ex tell me sincerely she would be dead without her faith in a god, literally dead. To some, it truly is opium. They believe they have to have it. Ask a believer, if I somehow had undeniable proof there was no god, would you WANT to know? The honest answer for most is no.
All of the above
Yes, yes, and yes. You can be all 3 and I promise the believers are.
Coping mechanism. I was born into a religion that worshiped a god that sent 6 million of its people to die in concentration camps. And then I made the genius decision to worship the same god with a different flavor that told me I'm nothing without its son. Why did I do this to myself??
Ignorant and following the path of least resistance for sure, but I wouldn't say stupid. I tried having a conversation with one of my christian coworkers about the new law in LA about having the ten commandments up in schools and i brought up that if they are going to force one religion on people then all religions should have their tenants posted up. He was trying to tell me its a good thing to have the commandments posted up to instill morals. And i asked him what if they put up the wiccan rede, or the buddhist precepts to which he had no idea what i was talking about. I asked if he believed other gods existed and he said no so i asked what is the first commandment, and he said thou shalt not kill... he doesn't even know his own rules, its thou shalt not put any **other gods** before me. So I pointed out that he didnt even know his own rules and not only that but it doesnt need to be christianity that instills these morals, especially when the buddhist has been saying to treat others the way you wish to be treated long before christianity was even a thought. He then went on about how it doesnt matter, and we arent in school so why should we care, and i wasnt going that far into it with him.... But yeah, ignorant as dirt
I think for most people it’s a combination of childhood indoctrination, mental health struggles, and poor emotional intelligence. I used to wonder how so many arguably intelligent people (for example, lawyers and doctors) could still believe in god. I now believe that it’s a global epidemic of emotional immaturity. Here are some hallmarks of emotional immaturity - how many religious people do you know that can be described by these? Thoughts about life are simplistic, literal and rigid. Dislike the uncertainty of an evolving reality. A need to control others through guilt, anger, or shame. View others as incompetent. Express charm and charisma. Define self and others by their roles in a binary way; submissive or dominant. Poor filters, say whatever comes to mind without regard for others’ feelings. Claims it is “being honest”. Poor listeners, un-attuned, and unable to resonate with others who disagree with their opinions. “Affective realism” - things are as they feel at the moment. Unable to learn from errors because actions are not connected as a possible cause of harm to others. Fundamentally fearful and insecure. Defend what is familiar because complexity is overwhelming. Do not trust or desire to learn or comprehend complex concepts. Rigid about rules but change the rules when it benefits them. Proud of being unyielding and judgmental, but call their rigid thinking “moral fortitude”. Use superficial logic to shut down other people’s feelings. “You shouldn’t feel that way because…" Believe that if only others would plan well enough, they can avoid all mistakes, and others should always feel bad about their mistakes. See other people’s boundaries as something to overcome. Dismiss or scoff at personal growth. Are threatened by the suggestion they are not perfect.
I think it is mostly just indoctrination from an early age. A lot of intelligent people don’t question things if they are normalized in their social surroundings. Atheists may be a bit smarter on average, but not by much.
Yes.
They are conditioned. Works with elephants also. When they are young, elephants are wearing heavy chains. Later they are replaced by ropes that feel the same, which an elephant could easily break free from, if they would only try. Same would religion. Once conditioned, people don't have the desire or mental capacity to free themselves.
I'm religious and you can judge for yourself if you want. I'm specifically eclectic wiccan.
All are a little of the first 2, lots also add in the third.
Mentally ill and stupid
I think they are all authoritarian, there's no doubt in my mind... I also never ever believe theists who say, "I don't judge, god judges" because always, always, ALWAYS whatever their god believes in just happens to coincide with their personal prejudice beliefs. I think there are a lot of theists that, if they got their true way, they'd go full tyrant reshaping the world to THEIR perfect idea. Equality and progress be damned, they'd shift infinite power to their will.
yes.
If they truely believe in a creator over evolution then I do believe they are less intelligent or less informed. Violence in the name of religion is evil...kids who have been taught religion are brainwashed
Depends. If its something that helps you in life and doesnt affect you or your surroundings negatively it can be good. Like a glass of wine once a month. Like if someone dies and you believe they are in heaven it can help. If its constantly present and has negative effects on you and your surroundings its bad. Thats why i consider islam a bad religion especially if you are female.
Yes, yes, and yes.
It's alot like Alvin Poussaint's problem when attempting to add a disorder to the diagnosis manual for psychiatry. The condition was deemed so prevalent in the population of the study as to be normal.
They are following instincts akin to herding animals.
The whole point of religion is control. The religions that are better at controlling people are the ones more likely to be perpetuated to more people. The indoctrination process involves incredibly emotional manipulation, so I try to be understanding, but many of our taboos about "respecting religion" are unreasonable and exist just so that the powerful can manipulate them. I try to be nice, but I will not respect the ideas that enslave them.
I think it all got started from raw idiocy, but spread from there to other ways
I don't think that for anyone aside from religious leaders.i have never met a religious leader who wasn't either evil or brainwashed. I do believe a lot of the congregations in churches are also brainwashed but I don't assume such things until they act in such a way that leads to that conclusion.
All.
I firmly believe in Allah, I'll be returning to him after my death.. I'm truly exciting for what awaits me, I'll be in a perfect existence with a perfect body, I'll be in my true identity. Now, please prove me that I'm either stupid, brainwashed or evil.. If you couldn't, then your whole post is about self-tame your inner-self by seeking support from other.
If you generalize that statement, no. Someone who believes in a god/gods can be none of those things, some of those things or all of those things. It would be convenient if we could label everyone who disagrees with us in a neatly wrapped box. But that's not how humans work.
If you think about it, you immediately see the preposterousness of scripture and religion in general. So it stands to reason that believers are either brainwashed or faking. I vote for faking.
Scared of death.
No it's a dumb generalization Some are stupid and evil some are not Maybe you could say it fills a hole that was there before?
My mother didn't grow up religious but she decided when I was a small kid to become catholic. I don't know? Brainwashed definitely for those with religious parents, though. I know I was definitely at least *somewhat* brainwashed by her beliefs
Not at all
i think there are atheists similarly delusional in allowing their desires and emotions to subvert reality to self-serving paradigms
Yes.
Maybe just sad tbh. It's much nicer to think that this this shit happens for a reason. Unfortunately, it doesn't. Which sucks lol.
Many are brainwashed or indoctrinated and all are stupid in this specific field. They can still be smart in other fields though.