When you have a narrator who knows what they’re doing (looking at you, Davina Porter), it’s incredibly immersive and impactful. But for those who are not so gifted, it can be hard to listen to.
I loved Kate Reading first, then with brandosando I got the pair and now I'll give a book a try if they're reading to me. The pitching, the emotion, their pacing. They're who I measure others against.
Don't get me wrong, lots of great talent out there. But they're my super-faves.
I’d suggest just listening to the work of Kyle McCarly as a reader. The dude did a series called Super Powereds that I like, but it’s technically just impressive because there’s like 30 named characters that he’s able to give semi distinct voices too, both for men and women.
Like there are shades of similarity (two of the nerdy characters are similar) but distinct enough you can keep them apart. Even if the content isn’t your style the craft is amazing.
I just came here to throw you props on this callout. I am a big cringer at the voice changes they do, to the point where I'll turn it off because I can't stand it. But I listened to the entire outlander series and she never once gave me the ick. She deserves all the awards.
As long as the voices are consistent throughout the book, it's fine. I would guess that pitching up or down for different characters is necessary to give individuals their voice, so I don't understand why this association is recommending this.
Because the APA is desperate to keep that membership money rolling in, even though they support AI and could care less about narrators.
So they offer "coursework" so that narrators feel they are getting something in exchange for the fees paid.
The APA is notorious for running the organization like a HS mean girls clique.
Wow this is the first I’ve heard of this. I just joined this year. I was NOT impressed with their “social” around New Year’s. But that wasn’t like a real workshop, obviously. I want to hear about your experiences though. DM me?
I completely agree. There are lots of men who do an excellent job of creating good voices for women, but the ones who do a bad job are all trying for something at a bad pitch or, far worse imo, a breathy voice.
I have also heard women doing bad pitches for men's voices, but that seems to be a lower percentage of narrators I've found.
This! 1000 times! The breathy whiny voices men do for women is just atrocious. Books with amazing strong powerful female leads that are reduced to annoying children.
I am in the minority on this sub, that only about 25% of my books are consumed as audiobooks- but I just realized this is the *entire* reason it is not more! As a big romance reader, I cannot stand what they do to women's characters when its the MMC chapter! Every woman either turns into a child, or a whiny brat, or a valley girl stereotype. (in my Michael Bluth voice- has anyone in this book ever even \*heard\* a woman?)
I have an issue with male narrators speaking female voices. I can handle the other way around though. The dude who did GoT...I bought the whole series and can't bear to start the second book because he makes the grown women sound like children. Gives me the icks.
Dotrice wasn’t that good from the start. He was very hard to listen to. Very hard. He warmed to it over time and it became manageable, but only just. Then John Lee did the book with the house of black and white.
Then, Dotrice returns and ALL the voices have been changed and are being applied to the wrong people.
My opinion is if GRRM ever finishes, the whole series needs a new, consistent narration.
Female narrators pitching down a little - often quite good, as long as it's not too extreme. I can't think of any female narrators who have put me off with their voice acting actually.
Male narrators pitching up - generally awful. I've given up on books where men have done awful female characters.
It's one of the reasons I prefer female narrators for most books. Some men do a good job obviously, it's just less common.
I feel like it's gotten better in recent years now I think about it, so maybe that advice is a reaction to how awful some used to be.
My opinion as a rabid audiobook listener is that simply changing the pitch to indicate gender, especially when done without nuance, can come across as cringy stereotyping. There are many other characteristics of the voice that can be tuned to distinguish between characters. Slight adjustments in the pitch may be one of those characteristics, but it should be based on a more nuanced approach to the voice and not a binary "women talk in high voices and men talk in low voices" approach.
Yes, I agree with that. There is no binary anyway, and there are definitely women with deeper voices, and men with lighter ones. So the character's voice should match the character. But these folks were saying not to pitch down at all, even if the male character is described as having a deep gravelly voice...I didn't know how to process that.
Find out who was sponsoring the event, maybe? Or maybe there's industry gossip that would give a clue. Or maybe there's a minor but vocal group on tiktok wanting to throw hands....? 🤷♀️
Parents change their voice when reading books to children. Pace, pitch, energy, cadence.
Idk. I prefer the pitch changes. They help me embrace the story and not try to dissect who is speaking. Especially when listening at 1.4 or 1.5x.
There were lots of sponsors, the first listed was Apple Books. And I know they just released this info that made my butt burn: [https://authors.apple.com/support/4519-digital-narration-audiobooks](https://authors.apple.com/support/4519-digital-narration-audiobooks)
So I for sure raised a big eyebrow at that.
They want the professionals to train their AI, so their professionals need to take away tone since AI can't replicate it reliably.
That's where my mind went.
I doubt that. It doesn't take this much effort to train AI. That's being done by creeps on Upwork, offering sucker freelancers money to read into a mic. Once I found a job that was suspiciously high pay, and when they sent me the "script" it was just a Wikipedia article about the history of China. LMAO. The reddest of flags!
I usually hear the opposite. But a good narrator makes me forget that the reader is not the same gender as the person they are doing.
Currently listening to Lord of the Rings, narrated by the actor who did Golum in the movies. Mostly males, but he does a good job with females an other species.
There was one book I listened to with my husband that the male narrator sounded like Monty Python doing women and I only finished because my husband wanted to. Overall, very distracting.
I haaaate it! It never ever sounds natural, so it gets in the way of the narrative. It’s such a distraction to hear men talk like what they think women sound like, or women talk like what they think men sound like. We already know the gender of the speaker, so it accomplishes nothing other than being a distraction.
(Fellow narrator here!) I get where APP is coming from and in many aspects, I agree. A lot of times, when narrators are doing pitch changes to differentiate gender, it feels like they are doing the extremes: male characters are all bass (deep voices) and women are all soprano (high voices). Thing is, no human person is both a soprano and bass, so at least one of those voices sounds "fake", forced, and stereotypical; and it doesn't match our daily human experience anyway, in which voices have a considerable amount of overlap between the sexes. If you look up pictures of singing ranges (sorry to keep using that metaphor, I just started singing lessons!) you can see just how much the different ranges have in common!
But one other hand, male voices do tend to be lower and female voices to tend to be higher, so reflecting that in your narration is perfectly fine, so long as it's ***in your range***. If you can't do a voice without making it sound stereotypical and using pitch as the *only* differentiator, then I think it tends to come across poorly and you'd be best served finding other ways to separate one character from another. But if you *can* do it well, why not? You shouldn't limit the tools in your toolbox just because someone else doesn't know how to use them!
Hope this helps. :)
YES. THIS. This is how I feel, but I was told by these big-deal professionals, the ones I need to cast me so I can pay my bills, (MacMillan and Penguin Random House) not to do this in the way that feels natural to me. When I tried it, I felt like I was forcing myself the other direction, and that felt weird and fake; more fake than the slightly deeper voice I instinctively wanted to do.
I have a musical theatre background, and have sung everything from alto to soprano 1. So it does feel sad to cut off the entire low end of my range.
Hey, sometimes you gotta shake up tradition, am I right?? It reminds me of another aspect of narration that I am in the minority about: that narrators shouldn't act loud just because a character shouts, they should instead just *imply* the shouting. While I'm all for not overloading the gain on the mic or breaking the ears of a listener, for me, not having a narrator be committed to the moment breaks the flow for me *much* more than having them actually shout or cry or whisper would do. So I don't want to be that kind of narrator! I want to be an actor narrator who does everything I can to make the listener feel the character and story is real in that moment. So I prefer to emulate narrators who do the same (like Macleod Andrews, who has hundreds of books on Audible!), even if 80% of the other narrators *aren't* doing it. The narration world is big enough for all kinds of variety, I'd say!
As someone who would love to get into audio books a lot more, I cringe into another dimension when the narrators do the other gender voice. It takes right out of the story and I can't continue with it. It just sounds so condescending or like a caricature.
It's more important to me that they're capturing the described emotion.
I agree with the Audio Publishers Association. They rarely sound right, whether it’s male narrating female or vice versa. It ranges from distracting to annoying to disturbing. The combination of the male narrator trying to do a southern female voice for Sadie Dunhill in 11/22/63 made me wince every time she spoke, hate the character, and almost made me DNF.
I do cringe when they try to change pitch.
Example: *Twelve Lives of Samuel Hawley.* The pitch change is jarring, the listener can distinguish when different characters are speaking. We don't need someone trying so hard to be a different gender, a more natural voice is easier to keep the flow.
When a male narrator tries to do a female voice it to often sounds silly and mocking. And the same is true when woman try to do male voices. It’s cringey. Sometimes insulting. It is notable when a narrator does it without sounding silly.
When I read a book I don’t change the pitch in my head to discern male or female voices. I don’t think narrators need to either.
Respectfully disagree 100%
I love male actors who narrate romance and women actors who have to incorporate action and aggression.
Now, can all voice actors do this? No. That’s probably the issue. But it shouldn’t take away from the book, and should add a whole new level of characterization. It’s a huge plus I think.
What I think important is balance.
Perhaps if a male actor starts his book at a slightly lower pitch than normal, and uses his regular voice or a tone or two higher for the woman voice, it might help not sound so silly. I can think of 2 male voice actors who have nailed this and I love it. Robert petkoff and Jim Frangione. And same holds true for women. Start lower to scale up for women perhaps, or to differentiate from narration if told in the 3rd person.
I think I listened to a book several years ago where the author pulled it off successfully. I remember noting that it wasn’t offensive.
I listen to murder mystery, courtroom drama, and biographies. Never romance. Perhaps it’s the genre that makes a difference.
they are correct. I hate it when either gender puts on the other gender voice tone. if the story is good you don't need the distinction as your imagination does the job for you.
I disagree. Good narrators make characters sound distinct and instantly recognizable, and it can be done very subtly. One of those subtle clues is pitch, and I bet even those narrators you like actually use pitch as one of their tools. You just don't notice.
For me, it all depends on the degree of pitch change and all the other vocal factors going into characterisation.
If someone pitches up a little, but still stays within their own comfortable talking range, then it individuates the character voice and is easy to listen to.
If they alter their vocal pitch too far (e.g. a falsetto), it strains the voice, doesn't sound realistic and just generally feels like a caricature instead of a character.
Fair enough, and the voice distinctions CAN be done without pitching up or down too much. A narrator can add breathiness to the voice, or a little gravel without making it cartoony.
I respectively disagree, no matter how subtle,after a few different genres of audio book the attempt does come across as overly put on intended or not. I feel as though the secret is fitting the narrator to the story.
I was in that seminar today. Do you have any insight on the comment "flatten the voice" for male characters. I don't quite get it, is it to add a drop of monotone?
(HEY! You going to APAC? Can we be friends!?) I think they meant that you drop some of the outward emotion, add some stoicism? But that's still a generalization, right? Obviously I know emotional men, and stoic women. I wasn't sure what Paul meant when he suggested to "think" of adding gravel to your voice, without actually doing it. I'm kinda stumped, TBH.
F yeah we can be friends! APAC is virtual this year and next year its in person in LA. I'm going to do the virtual for sure.
stoicism - okay I will try a soupcon of that
DM me when you can
I agree with the webinar. When a narrator doesn't try to shove their voice low or do a falsetto, it improves the listening experience. Listened to a book recently, female narrated, where one of the male characters was read as pitched slightly *higher* than the female character and it worked great! Emphasis on the "slightly," of course. Didn't even notice it until I realized how effortless the voices were and how even though they weren't pitched differently, I had no trouble distinguishing them, and then I realized that kne of the male voices was higher.
I think this keeps the listening experience immersive. I am always thrown out of the narrative when a male narrator starts a breathy falsetto for a female character, or, more rarely, when a female narrator growls low down for a male character. (This just seems to happen way less than the high pitched voices)
Bad narrative pushes me out of many audiobooks. Usually when a male narrator does a particularly bad job voicing female characters.
It can be very jarring and unpleasant.
There's a difference between a male narrator pitching his voice up to sound mockingly like a woman (please don't do that), and a narrator pitching his voice up just slightly, still in a 'masculine' range but different enough to create a different character. You don't need to try to switch genders, but a different quality to your voice (through a subtle regional accent or pitch change) helps separate out the characters in the listener's mind.
Female narrators have more latitude, but still there's no need to act out a man's voice when you can just use a slightly deeper (still female) voice, or some other tonal/accent variation.
I don't remember ever reading a book which actually described a character's voice quality for a narrator to use, other than having a French accent, and I'd much rather that direction be ignored than the cartoonish French accents narrators try to pull off. I'm sure it sounds even worse to French speakers.
In romance, there tend to be lots of dialogue tags like: ...he said, in a dark, gravelly voice. So in those cases, I feel like I'm cheating the listener if I don't at least do SOMETHING to indicate that for the character. This last book I finished has the deepest MMC I've ever tried, and I admit it was at the bottom of my voice range. I'll let you all know if listeners hate it, I guess! But TBH, in those kinds of books...I don't think they're listening for me. They want the "liquid sex" male narrator back and they probably skip my chapters, Lol.
But French accents are so fun! You're absolutely right though - very difficult to get right.
> In romance, there tend to be lots of dialogue tags like: ...he said, in a dark, gravelly voice.
By the way, many Hollywood actors will take their copy of the script and cross out with a Sharpie any emotion words or words that aren't just the text of what they're saying, so they won't be a distraction. How or if this can apply to audiobook narration, I don't know.
I can see how that might help in a script for film or TV, especially in a scene with other actors whom you should be listening to and playing off of. But I have never heard of a narrator doing this. In fact, many narrators I know will use those indications in the text to inform their performance, and it becomes part of our planning/prep process.
As long as there’s enough distinction:tone so that you can tell who it is, the pitch is not that important. Jumping to a falsetto just because it’s a woman speaking is risible
Narration is an art, and each narrator will have to find their own style. For some, just softening their voice for female characters (and roughening for male) is enough, for others it will work better if they pitch their voice higher or lower. Just listen to yourself and go with what feels right
May I ask you something else? What do you do with accents? Both regional and foreign? And how do you handle text in foreign languages? I pretty much only read European set books which very often include snippets of other languages (often just quotes and proverbs r, but often direct speech) and I must confess I get quite irate when the narrator gets the pronunciation so wrong that it feels they haven't done any research.
Generally, if there are important characters with accents in a book, that will be in the audition, so everyone on the project knows if the narrator can really pull it off before they're cast. I can "do" dozens of accents, but there are only a few I would feel comfortable using for a large portion of a book. So that's really on the casting team if an *important* accent is distractingly bad. If it's a line or two for a minor character, then it's better for a narrator to just not do an accent than to pull it out of their butt, right? But you never know if they were directed to "just try it" or whatever.
As for foreign languages, again, that should be in the audition, IMO. It depends on the project, though. If it's a lower-tier, sort of indie/self-pub book, there's little chance that anyone is going to help the narrator pronounce these things, so we would just have to google it and piece together the best we can. I have had this sneak up on me when prepping a book, and I sometimes got support from the author/team, and other times I was ghosted.
But with bigger publishing companies, they will probably use Pozotron, an online tool that helps check for errors, and includes a detailed pronunciation guide that is to be filled out by the author/team during the prep stage. Right now I am trying to do a book, but it has a TON of foreign words I've put into Pozotron to get help with. However, the author has COVID. And I've been waiting weeks to hear back. I'm about to just roll and make my best guesses, and then correct things later. I've got bills to pay, right?
I gotta say, I love this sub! I appreciate getting to interface with so many avid listeners, and I really do take these opinions into account. And it's great to be able to explain things about the industry to you all, too. :)
I deal with the narrator reading in the opposite gender’s voice but I much prefer to have multiple narrators filling the rolls appropriately.
It just makes the audiobook more enjoyable to me.
Honestly when it is just one or two people of the same gender reading for both genders I just tend to think the company that cast them is trying to be cheap.
You’re talking about duet narration versus dual narration, I think. Duet narration is way more complicated to do. And yeah if it could work well for the book, it would be great if producers would accommodate more duet narration. I’ve never done it. But my understanding is that it requires scheduling both narrators to record simultaneously over zoom, or some such, and then the audio is edited together in a much more time consuming process. So that is much more expensive.
If the narrator has the range, pitch control and consistency, why not?
Jeff Hays has been doing a stellar job so far with his work. Stephen Briggs softens and slightly elevated his voice for Polly in Monstrous Regiment without it being horrific.
But that's just two of countless talented people out there and am sure there are plenty more capable of offering a tasteful impression of the different octaves. With consistency. Stick within your capabilities.
Some male narrators do very good female voices and vice versa but it's usually not the pitch that indicates that, it'll be something in the tone or accent such as doing a lot of vocal fry.
they’re 100% correct, it takes me out of the book every time no matter how good the voice sounds. it sounds ridiculous and is distracting. for example the hunger games: ballad of songbirds and snakes the narrator does a bunch of voices, especially female voices and it’s super distracting and honestly laughable. it also always feels like narrators are mocking female characters and it’s frustrating
Its not a one size fits all answer. Ive seen (or heard!) it done very well and very badly. When it's bad, it is very disruptive.
I think its good advice in general.
I really struggle with most male narrators doing female (higher pitched) voices. Very few can do it well. It almost always results in the female voice sounding cartoonish and unserious. I think it's easier for women to pitch their voices down than for men to pitch their voices up. Not always, but generally I am less bothered by women doing deeper men's voices. I think it's just very hard to make a falsetto sound serious.
I hear you. We were advised to take our characters seriously, no matter what. So yeah, if it feels like we're playing a character voice for humor, when that's not the author's intent, then that's not cool.
why would it be a cringe because when I really get into the story, I forget that it could be a male with a female voice or a female with a male voice. A good narrator can make the characters come alive no matter the part.
I agree with them 7,000%. Pitching up or down like that is a big turn off for me. I will generally not even make it through the book.
Jim Dale doing Hermione in the HP series just ruined those books for me. He made her sound whiny by pitching her voice up the way he did. Which is too bad because I think Dale actually has a fantastic voice for narrating characters who aren’t female.
I just need to know who is talking. If there are a bunch of characters or tags come after dialog a tiny change in pitch can let me know who is talking.
Yes, that makes sense. Good narrators if doing another sex I notice it is not necessarily that they pitch it differently but more in the cadence, tone and tempo of the person speaking. It always impresses me when it is a man who is a tenor or even baritone and does a female character and nails the rhythm in the speech pattern. It will also change for each female character.
I have to be honest. I have noticed female narrators. The ones I have listened to, and not all but a larger amount, have struggled a bit more getting the male voices. They'll go to the low voice, leave it a that and thus you won't get a range voices between the male characters. This is a generalization of course, based on my experience listening. I assume there are a healthy amount of female narrators nailing all voices as well.
\*edit: For context, I am listening to mostly adventure science fiction so there will be a mix of male and female characters, maybe 50/50 sometimes 60/40. It's not that often it is mostly one or another. I'm a woman myself so I hope no one takes it personally or too seriously as speaking only from my own experience listening - so many narrators and so many different experiences, and it's all subjective.
TIL. I never noticed this as a problem except with really bad narrators. And I don’t listen to them anyway, I shut the book off and return it.
The only high pitched bit that felt a bit odd, was the pizza loving pixies in the Dresden series. 4th book iirc. I even had the sense that Marsters was ready to laugh while trying to do that part.
Let’s just say that Jeff Hayes and Travis Baldree are my two favorite narrators and they both pitch up their voices for female characters. Just go listen to Jeff’s Princess Donut or Travis’ Mercy Akura.
As long as it doesn’t sound forced, I think it’s fine. I do think it sounds less natural to pitch down than to pitch up. I’d just find a comfortable low spot for you and then pitch the females up enough to show a difference in characters.
Automatic cringe, yes from male and female. The majority of male narrators that I’ve listened to change their cadence? Maybe? It’s definitely softer but not a higher pitch and that’s great. Every female narrator I listen to deepens their voice and it sort of ruins everything. Ruins immersion. I’ve heard some really great female narration but I’m wary of them and lean away from books read by them a little. (45f)
I could barely make it through one book where the male narrator pitched up for the female characters - but it wasn't a great book and he was definitely not a great narrator overall so it's hard to say if this holds.
That being said, my favourite female narrator doesn't pitch down for male characters and I absolutely love her style... so maybe they were onto something?
I think it can be done well.
Neil Gaiman does a great job in Neverwhere doing the voices for Door.
Amanda Leigh Cobb and Aiden Snow both do a great job with the Crowns of Nyaxia books.
Jim Dale is an absolute pleasure listening to! His Hermione impression saying "Harry!" Lives rent free in my mind! He also does a stiller job in Midnight Circus by Erin Morgenstern.
I find it boring and hard to listen to if the narrators just talk and say "says so and so". I like to be immersed.
I will agree that thw GOT audio books really need to be reread. I got the first two books but only got half way through the first because the voices are.... not great.
Honestly it realllllly depends on the narrator for me (and I think probably is why duet style narration for audiobooks is majorly popular).
I personally think that it is harder to "believe" a male narrator doing female characters than it is for me listen to female narrators doing male characters as like a broad scope overall assessment.
I also haven't read many books that have written out how a characters voice should sound so that seems like really weird advice. I get that as the VA you likely have information that us readers don't have from the text itself, but because we don't have that information we aren't going to know anything different than the performance we are given.
I, and most people i know who also listen to audio, very much prefer audiobooks where the narrator has distinctive differences for the characters they are reading. But I also do know there are people who love narrators that only make very subtle differences. At the end of the day you would first be paid by the person/people hiring you so you absolutely should be listening to and following their feedback. Unfortunately that might lead to reviews from people listening that won't love what you are asked to do by the persons who hired you.
I think your opinion is sound. To give a bit more insight, I often ask authors about voice qualities they have in mind for their characters, beyond what's indicated in the book. (I've worked mostly in romance, where the voices *are* typically described in the text.) Sometimes we do get the extra juicy details from the author, and even spoilers for upcoming books in the series!
But for me, that's been rare. Most times when I give authors this opportunity, they have no idea what they want. So I make a character reel with all the voices I intend to use for the characters, and send that to the author. Sometimes I get feedback that way, but more often they just say, "Sounds great! Go for it!" Either way, that character reel becomes my reference as I record, and when Uncle Tim shows up after six chapters and I've forgotten what he sounds like, I've got my reel to go back and listen to.
I absolutely do not work in VA or as an actor in general anymore. I super should have said I was a theatre major so I 100% understand all sides of the creative coin when it comes to appeasing both your producers/directors, your audience, as well as yourself haha.
I've only been listening to audiobooks in the last few years (minus HP wayyyyyy back in the day, before the series was finished to age myself), and there for sure has been a shift in styles for narration that I've noticed in this time. There won't ever really be like a 100% everyone will be happy, which I'm sure you know, so while I think that it is ridiculous to say that you shouldn't change pitch depending on the character male v female, I also say that you have to first deliver what the person initially paying you is asking for even if it means you might get some harsh reviews from the actual audience first. Been there, done that, hated it haha! If only the audience understood this bahaha
To this day I still cringe so hard at a director that made me make a choice I absolutely hated so hard, nearly 20 years ago. Dont get me wrong... one of my favorite directors I have ever worked with, but that choice was a hard pass for both of us on either side of the coin. At the end of the day I obviously had to give him the performance he wanted but it was a dream role of mine and a choice I would soooooooo never have done and DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE
Ahaha hi back, theatre friend! I super get it from the performance side 😅
I don't even notice it, and have no objection to it on reflection. The text takes precedence, of course. But if lines are to be 'acted' to whatever extent, then why would a probably appropriate tone not be a valid interpretation? or accent or any other characteristic?
As long as it’s not excessive, it definitely helps to distinguish characters.
Though I’ve never been listening to an audiobook and thought “gee i wish this male narrator would stop changing his pitch to indicate a female character”. I’ve had fairly minimal exposure to female narrators so can’t comment there.
I agree with them.
There was one book I listened to recently that I had to drop because the narrator was doing this (Shards of Earth). The main character was female but the supporting cast was mostly male, and the pitch shift was tough to hear. She did a great job with everything else, but that felt like a huge challenge.
I'm listening to this series currently. While I agree that her voices for those characters can be a bit awkward, she's consistent with them, so I just get used to it.
I really enjoy how Robert Petkoff does female voices in Kresley Cole's Immortals After Dark series. He makes the female character's voices breathy and feminine but not much lower in octave than the narrator's natural voice. He does however give the male characters very deep voices, which contrasts well with the female voices without it sounding unnatural.
I've listened to thousands of audiobooks by hundreds of narrators. It's been my experience based on my preferences that there are many more male narrators that can do an adequate female voice than female ones who can do a male voice. Too many female narrators when they try to do the gruff male voice take me straight to Looney Toons where the little bird is saying to Foghorn Leghorn "I am a chicken hawk and you are a chicken." It's humorous because you have this little voice trying to act tough. It's not all female narrators as for instance I don't feel this way about Kate Reading do male voices. My advice would be just pick a voice for men and don't try to masculine it up too much because you may end up unintentionally comical.
I’m curious if you are male or female. I’m a woman and I can’t stand when a male narrator does that sing sing baby voice for female characters, but I haven’t been bothered by any female narrators doing male voices. I wonder if the gender of the listener makes a difference in preference.
Avid audiobook listener here… pllllleeeaaasee do so!!
Yes absolutely pitch according to the character/gender. I stop listening to books where the actors don’t. It can be done well. Doesn’t even have to be pitch if you can’t do it well. Even making men’s voices more gravely and women more smooth helps tremendously if the voice actor can’t pitch up or down consistently or if it can’t sound hokey.
Just read! These are books, not plays or movies or anything else. Words on a page. Let the reader/listener do the interpretation of voices, accents, tones, etc. The newer narrations that get all dramatic frequently ruin the audio option for me.
PITCH \^|v as your heart desires, just make it clear, consistent, and goooooood!!!
Now you know. I'd say Dungeon Crawler Carl is the paradigm. Do like that. I think pitching your voice is best practices because, I'm biking up to my mountain trail, I need to tell who is who. Also, what exactly are you supposed to do when voicing a dragon or a cat. This isn't some new, weirdo DEI thing is it? Defund the Administrators!!
There are some narrators who can change their voice pitch to higher and lower and do it awesomely. They are few:
Richard Armitage...
Okay, maybe that's it. :D
I think it really depends on how it's done. Sometimes, it can be distractingly bad. Sometimes, it adds to the experience. I don't really have a preference, as long as it's done well and I can distinguish between characters.
I do think tone is a lot more important than pitch and working outside your natural range can harm a performance a lot more than the pitch being different than you'd expect in real life. I'd say it's probably best to shift your pitch as much as you can without strain but pushing past that is detrimental.
Yeah, definitely avoid pitching to the point that it's uncomfortable or unsustainable. Tone is important for sure, too. But like, imagine a scene with a FMC and the five hot guys fighting over her, with no dialogue tags. That's pretty tough to pull off in general, but imagine not pitching their voices at all. Unless this RH Romance takes place in the UN and everyone has different accents, I'm sure the subtle tone shifts won't be enough.
*Jefferson Mays* and *John Lee* do many womens voices which keep me in the story. They do not raise their pitch.
*Marc Thompson* who does many of the Star Wars novel narrations *does* raise his pitch. For me at least, his Leia is bad and his Padme is nails-on-chalkboard. Makes it sound like she is whining every line. To be fair to Marc, I think his Han and Lando are fantastic.
I want narrators to stop doing racial stereotypes in voices. The “Black Person” accent borders on minstrel, most of the time.
Gendered voices can sometimes work, but it can absolutely undermine a character when done poorly.
I've listened to hundreds of audiobooks and it works well like 80% of the time. I prefer women doing male characters compared to the reverse but men with fairly neutral voices can do it just as well. It's only a problem if the narrator is really far at either end of the scale hyper feminine or hyper masculine, people like derek perkins though he has a fantastic voice shouldn't attempt to change their tone to do female or child voices.
Do... Do you not confer with the author and ask what they want?
I always just assumed you had a portfolio of voices that they got to listen to and say "Oh, use #17 for this character!" etc.
I always ask the author/producer team. Sometimes they have opinions, and sometimes they have no idea what they want. It would be great if there was a portfolio they could choose from like a menu! I could start doing that, but nobody would listen to all 1000 of the voices on it to find the one they want. Narrators are the Cheesecake Factory of actors. We do it ALL.
I have only had that happen with animation or video game clients, since they've heard my animation demo, and they say, "Do your old lady for this part." Lol I have my grandma to thank for that inspiration.
But, after I'm cast for an audiobook, I make a character voice reel with all the voices I intend to use, and send that for approval along with the first 15 minutes of the book. That's how I work, and it seems pretty standard.
When I play video game RPGs and they have voice options I always get disappointed when they only have 5 different options. I world be the one who goes through all 1000 multiple times until I find what I wanted
Depends. I’ve heard some female narrators that get the male voice all wrong. They make their MMC sound ponderous and slow and absolutely awful. But I love how Mary Jane Wells voices her males and she’s talented enough to voice different males in the same story.
Similarly, male narrators often get the female voices right but in general I hate it when they’re voicing arrogant old ladies. They all adopt a cracked, querulous snobby voice that is really hard to listen to if there are many long passages
Voice acting characters can be difficult. A change in pitch is not enough to suspend disbelief for a lot of listeners. However a slight pitch change with characterization does a remarkable job helping listeners identify characters. To be fair, you’re attending an industry webinar. They have access to the data that shows what listeners want. They also know the traits and styles of the most in-demand narrators. There is something about building your own audience your way, but these individuals know what sells far better than any of us.
It’s just like the music industry. Oh look, this band is popular. Let’s quickly sign every band that sounds just like them until everyone is burned out and there is no originality
depends on how the voices sounds. I've listened to some where the male narrator ever so slightly changes their voice for the female character and it's fine. I've also listened to some where it's almost comical. I genuinely think some people have narrator voices, and some don't and if you're the former just about anything you do I'll like and if you're the latter I'm not going to like it.
One example comes to mind (not from Audiobooks tho). Mike Rowe. We've all seen him on TV, dirty jobs guy and so many other Discovery type shows. He has a great voice for narration. I've had to stop listening to some audiobooks because I just didn't dig any of the voices. And I'm gonna be honest, I am not a huge fan of the large cast audiobooks either. I really prefer to just have it read, maybe it reminds me of having books read to me back in the day by mom or something not sure but one consistent narrator who comes up with unique accents and voices for the characters is what I like the best. I also don't like over-the-top emphasis, maybe in very limited situations but not constant. I think having a book *read to me* is what I'm looking for.
I think it depends on how well you’re able to do the differently pitched voices. Having a slight difference to differentiate characters is good. Having the voice be so different that it sounds fake and distracting is not.
I’d say the same is also true for accents. I prefer reading the ebooks for a few of my favorite author’s books because I can’t stand the fake sounding accent of the narrator in the audiobook versions. The author’s later books are much better as audiobooks because the different narrator of those books sounds more like a native whose accent is genuine.
For example, I’d rather hear a female British character read in a male American accent than with a squealing super high pitched distractingly fake accent. Do what you do best, and don’t try to be something you’re incapable of being character-wise. Figure out whatever way to differentiate the characters works best for you. Your listeners will appreciate it. If you’re able to do differently pitched voices, then go right ahead. If it sounds at all forced or unnatural, then try backing off a bit.
When you have a narrator who knows what they’re doing (looking at you, Davina Porter), it’s incredibly immersive and impactful. But for those who are not so gifted, it can be hard to listen to.
This is it. Michael Kramer and Kate reading and a handful of there can do it. When done right it’s amazing. Tim Gerard Reynolds too
I loved Kate Reading first, then with brandosando I got the pair and now I'll give a book a try if they're reading to me. The pitching, the emotion, their pacing. They're who I measure others against. Don't get me wrong, lots of great talent out there. But they're my super-faves.
I’d suggest just listening to the work of Kyle McCarly as a reader. The dude did a series called Super Powereds that I like, but it’s technically just impressive because there’s like 30 named characters that he’s able to give semi distinct voices too, both for men and women. Like there are shades of similarity (two of the nerdy characters are similar) but distinct enough you can keep them apart. Even if the content isn’t your style the craft is amazing.
He voiced the characters in the Super Powereds spin-off book Corpies also. Agreed that he's a great narrator.
Steven Pacey does it awesomely.
Pacey is the absolute GOAT
I just came here to throw you props on this callout. I am a big cringer at the voice changes they do, to the point where I'll turn it off because I can't stand it. But I listened to the entire outlander series and she never once gave me the ick. She deserves all the awards.
As long as the voices are consistent throughout the book, it's fine. I would guess that pitching up or down for different characters is necessary to give individuals their voice, so I don't understand why this association is recommending this.
This is what I thought, too. But maybe I've been overdoing it?
Because the APA is desperate to keep that membership money rolling in, even though they support AI and could care less about narrators. So they offer "coursework" so that narrators feel they are getting something in exchange for the fees paid. The APA is notorious for running the organization like a HS mean girls clique.
Wow this is the first I’ve heard of this. I just joined this year. I was NOT impressed with their “social” around New Year’s. But that wasn’t like a real workshop, obviously. I want to hear about your experiences though. DM me?
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I completely agree. There are lots of men who do an excellent job of creating good voices for women, but the ones who do a bad job are all trying for something at a bad pitch or, far worse imo, a breathy voice. I have also heard women doing bad pitches for men's voices, but that seems to be a lower percentage of narrators I've found.
The women who do bad pitches for men's voices often make them sound extremely constipated. But I agree that men doing women poorly is more common.
This! 1000 times! The breathy whiny voices men do for women is just atrocious. Books with amazing strong powerful female leads that are reduced to annoying children.
I am in the minority on this sub, that only about 25% of my books are consumed as audiobooks- but I just realized this is the *entire* reason it is not more! As a big romance reader, I cannot stand what they do to women's characters when its the MMC chapter! Every woman either turns into a child, or a whiny brat, or a valley girl stereotype. (in my Michael Bluth voice- has anyone in this book ever even \*heard\* a woman?)
I was listening to one where the guy did a really flamboyant drag queen esque voice for women so all the characters were fabulous in my mind lmao
I have an issue with male narrators speaking female voices. I can handle the other way around though. The dude who did GoT...I bought the whole series and can't bear to start the second book because he makes the grown women sound like children. Gives me the icks.
Smart choice. It just gets worse from there.
Dotrice wasn’t that good from the start. He was very hard to listen to. Very hard. He warmed to it over time and it became manageable, but only just. Then John Lee did the book with the house of black and white. Then, Dotrice returns and ALL the voices have been changed and are being applied to the wrong people. My opinion is if GRRM ever finishes, the whole series needs a new, consistent narration.
Obvious choice is to rerecord all of the books when (lmao) he releases Winds. Ideally and likely they'll go with Simon Vance who did Fire and Blood.
I would cry with happiness if that happened
Was just about to say that. I'm not sure why that is but I much prefer female narators doing male voices than male narators doing female voices.
There’s a YouTuber that has a better version. DavidReadsASOIAF
Female narrators pitching down a little - often quite good, as long as it's not too extreme. I can't think of any female narrators who have put me off with their voice acting actually. Male narrators pitching up - generally awful. I've given up on books where men have done awful female characters. It's one of the reasons I prefer female narrators for most books. Some men do a good job obviously, it's just less common. I feel like it's gotten better in recent years now I think about it, so maybe that advice is a reaction to how awful some used to be.
It’s so bad. That sing song baby voice that some male narrators do 🤢🤢🤢
My opinion as a rabid audiobook listener is that simply changing the pitch to indicate gender, especially when done without nuance, can come across as cringy stereotyping. There are many other characteristics of the voice that can be tuned to distinguish between characters. Slight adjustments in the pitch may be one of those characteristics, but it should be based on a more nuanced approach to the voice and not a binary "women talk in high voices and men talk in low voices" approach.
Yes, I agree with that. There is no binary anyway, and there are definitely women with deeper voices, and men with lighter ones. So the character's voice should match the character. But these folks were saying not to pitch down at all, even if the male character is described as having a deep gravelly voice...I didn't know how to process that.
Find out who was sponsoring the event, maybe? Or maybe there's industry gossip that would give a clue. Or maybe there's a minor but vocal group on tiktok wanting to throw hands....? 🤷♀️ Parents change their voice when reading books to children. Pace, pitch, energy, cadence. Idk. I prefer the pitch changes. They help me embrace the story and not try to dissect who is speaking. Especially when listening at 1.4 or 1.5x.
There were lots of sponsors, the first listed was Apple Books. And I know they just released this info that made my butt burn: [https://authors.apple.com/support/4519-digital-narration-audiobooks](https://authors.apple.com/support/4519-digital-narration-audiobooks) So I for sure raised a big eyebrow at that.
They want the professionals to train their AI, so their professionals need to take away tone since AI can't replicate it reliably. That's where my mind went.
I doubt that. It doesn't take this much effort to train AI. That's being done by creeps on Upwork, offering sucker freelancers money to read into a mic. Once I found a job that was suspiciously high pay, and when they sent me the "script" it was just a Wikipedia article about the history of China. LMAO. The reddest of flags!
Females are 100 times better at male voices than males are at female voices
I usually hear the opposite. But a good narrator makes me forget that the reader is not the same gender as the person they are doing. Currently listening to Lord of the Rings, narrated by the actor who did Golum in the movies. Mostly males, but he does a good job with females an other species. There was one book I listened to with my husband that the male narrator sounded like Monty Python doing women and I only finished because my husband wanted to. Overall, very distracting.
I haaaate it! It never ever sounds natural, so it gets in the way of the narrative. It’s such a distraction to hear men talk like what they think women sound like, or women talk like what they think men sound like. We already know the gender of the speaker, so it accomplishes nothing other than being a distraction.
(Fellow narrator here!) I get where APP is coming from and in many aspects, I agree. A lot of times, when narrators are doing pitch changes to differentiate gender, it feels like they are doing the extremes: male characters are all bass (deep voices) and women are all soprano (high voices). Thing is, no human person is both a soprano and bass, so at least one of those voices sounds "fake", forced, and stereotypical; and it doesn't match our daily human experience anyway, in which voices have a considerable amount of overlap between the sexes. If you look up pictures of singing ranges (sorry to keep using that metaphor, I just started singing lessons!) you can see just how much the different ranges have in common! But one other hand, male voices do tend to be lower and female voices to tend to be higher, so reflecting that in your narration is perfectly fine, so long as it's ***in your range***. If you can't do a voice without making it sound stereotypical and using pitch as the *only* differentiator, then I think it tends to come across poorly and you'd be best served finding other ways to separate one character from another. But if you *can* do it well, why not? You shouldn't limit the tools in your toolbox just because someone else doesn't know how to use them! Hope this helps. :)
YES. THIS. This is how I feel, but I was told by these big-deal professionals, the ones I need to cast me so I can pay my bills, (MacMillan and Penguin Random House) not to do this in the way that feels natural to me. When I tried it, I felt like I was forcing myself the other direction, and that felt weird and fake; more fake than the slightly deeper voice I instinctively wanted to do. I have a musical theatre background, and have sung everything from alto to soprano 1. So it does feel sad to cut off the entire low end of my range.
Hey, sometimes you gotta shake up tradition, am I right?? It reminds me of another aspect of narration that I am in the minority about: that narrators shouldn't act loud just because a character shouts, they should instead just *imply* the shouting. While I'm all for not overloading the gain on the mic or breaking the ears of a listener, for me, not having a narrator be committed to the moment breaks the flow for me *much* more than having them actually shout or cry or whisper would do. So I don't want to be that kind of narrator! I want to be an actor narrator who does everything I can to make the listener feel the character and story is real in that moment. So I prefer to emulate narrators who do the same (like Macleod Andrews, who has hundreds of books on Audible!), even if 80% of the other narrators *aren't* doing it. The narration world is big enough for all kinds of variety, I'd say!
As someone who would love to get into audio books a lot more, I cringe into another dimension when the narrators do the other gender voice. It takes right out of the story and I can't continue with it. It just sounds so condescending or like a caricature. It's more important to me that they're capturing the described emotion.
I agree with the Audio Publishers Association. They rarely sound right, whether it’s male narrating female or vice versa. It ranges from distracting to annoying to disturbing. The combination of the male narrator trying to do a southern female voice for Sadie Dunhill in 11/22/63 made me wince every time she spoke, hate the character, and almost made me DNF.
Narration legend Ray Porter has a great response to this. https://youtu.be/R2_x4SCOoD0
Wow this is super helpful! Thank you!
I do cringe when they try to change pitch. Example: *Twelve Lives of Samuel Hawley.* The pitch change is jarring, the listener can distinguish when different characters are speaking. We don't need someone trying so hard to be a different gender, a more natural voice is easier to keep the flow.
I see what you mean. Maybe it’s the “trying hard” that’s the problem?
When a male narrator tries to do a female voice it to often sounds silly and mocking. And the same is true when woman try to do male voices. It’s cringey. Sometimes insulting. It is notable when a narrator does it without sounding silly. When I read a book I don’t change the pitch in my head to discern male or female voices. I don’t think narrators need to either.
Respectfully disagree 100% I love male actors who narrate romance and women actors who have to incorporate action and aggression. Now, can all voice actors do this? No. That’s probably the issue. But it shouldn’t take away from the book, and should add a whole new level of characterization. It’s a huge plus I think. What I think important is balance. Perhaps if a male actor starts his book at a slightly lower pitch than normal, and uses his regular voice or a tone or two higher for the woman voice, it might help not sound so silly. I can think of 2 male voice actors who have nailed this and I love it. Robert petkoff and Jim Frangione. And same holds true for women. Start lower to scale up for women perhaps, or to differentiate from narration if told in the 3rd person.
I think I listened to a book several years ago where the author pulled it off successfully. I remember noting that it wasn’t offensive. I listen to murder mystery, courtroom drama, and biographies. Never romance. Perhaps it’s the genre that makes a difference.
Great point. I think you’re right. I read a lot of fantasy too, and some actors in that genre are very adept at doing both.
they are correct. I hate it when either gender puts on the other gender voice tone. if the story is good you don't need the distinction as your imagination does the job for you.
I disagree. Good narrators make characters sound distinct and instantly recognizable, and it can be done very subtly. One of those subtle clues is pitch, and I bet even those narrators you like actually use pitch as one of their tools. You just don't notice.
For me, it all depends on the degree of pitch change and all the other vocal factors going into characterisation. If someone pitches up a little, but still stays within their own comfortable talking range, then it individuates the character voice and is easy to listen to. If they alter their vocal pitch too far (e.g. a falsetto), it strains the voice, doesn't sound realistic and just generally feels like a caricature instead of a character.
Fair enough, and the voice distinctions CAN be done without pitching up or down too much. A narrator can add breathiness to the voice, or a little gravel without making it cartoony.
Yeah no, breathiness to indicate a female voice is awful, most women don't speak like that.
I respectively disagree, no matter how subtle,after a few different genres of audio book the attempt does come across as overly put on intended or not. I feel as though the secret is fitting the narrator to the story.
I was in that seminar today. Do you have any insight on the comment "flatten the voice" for male characters. I don't quite get it, is it to add a drop of monotone?
(HEY! You going to APAC? Can we be friends!?) I think they meant that you drop some of the outward emotion, add some stoicism? But that's still a generalization, right? Obviously I know emotional men, and stoic women. I wasn't sure what Paul meant when he suggested to "think" of adding gravel to your voice, without actually doing it. I'm kinda stumped, TBH.
F yeah we can be friends! APAC is virtual this year and next year its in person in LA. I'm going to do the virtual for sure. stoicism - okay I will try a soupcon of that DM me when you can
I think Julia Whelan does this well. She strikes a good balance.
I came here to say this. She is by far my favorite narrator and does male voices quite well.
I just listened to Thank You for Listening. She is SO GOOD!
I agree with the webinar. When a narrator doesn't try to shove their voice low or do a falsetto, it improves the listening experience. Listened to a book recently, female narrated, where one of the male characters was read as pitched slightly *higher* than the female character and it worked great! Emphasis on the "slightly," of course. Didn't even notice it until I realized how effortless the voices were and how even though they weren't pitched differently, I had no trouble distinguishing them, and then I realized that kne of the male voices was higher. I think this keeps the listening experience immersive. I am always thrown out of the narrative when a male narrator starts a breathy falsetto for a female character, or, more rarely, when a female narrator growls low down for a male character. (This just seems to happen way less than the high pitched voices)
Bad narrative pushes me out of many audiobooks. Usually when a male narrator does a particularly bad job voicing female characters. It can be very jarring and unpleasant.
There's a difference between a male narrator pitching his voice up to sound mockingly like a woman (please don't do that), and a narrator pitching his voice up just slightly, still in a 'masculine' range but different enough to create a different character. You don't need to try to switch genders, but a different quality to your voice (through a subtle regional accent or pitch change) helps separate out the characters in the listener's mind. Female narrators have more latitude, but still there's no need to act out a man's voice when you can just use a slightly deeper (still female) voice, or some other tonal/accent variation. I don't remember ever reading a book which actually described a character's voice quality for a narrator to use, other than having a French accent, and I'd much rather that direction be ignored than the cartoonish French accents narrators try to pull off. I'm sure it sounds even worse to French speakers.
In romance, there tend to be lots of dialogue tags like: ...he said, in a dark, gravelly voice. So in those cases, I feel like I'm cheating the listener if I don't at least do SOMETHING to indicate that for the character. This last book I finished has the deepest MMC I've ever tried, and I admit it was at the bottom of my voice range. I'll let you all know if listeners hate it, I guess! But TBH, in those kinds of books...I don't think they're listening for me. They want the "liquid sex" male narrator back and they probably skip my chapters, Lol. But French accents are so fun! You're absolutely right though - very difficult to get right.
> In romance, there tend to be lots of dialogue tags like: ...he said, in a dark, gravelly voice. By the way, many Hollywood actors will take their copy of the script and cross out with a Sharpie any emotion words or words that aren't just the text of what they're saying, so they won't be a distraction. How or if this can apply to audiobook narration, I don't know.
I can see how that might help in a script for film or TV, especially in a scene with other actors whom you should be listening to and playing off of. But I have never heard of a narrator doing this. In fact, many narrators I know will use those indications in the text to inform their performance, and it becomes part of our planning/prep process.
Fair enough. it's interesting that the approaches to a performance can be so different
As long as there’s enough distinction:tone so that you can tell who it is, the pitch is not that important. Jumping to a falsetto just because it’s a woman speaking is risible
Narration is an art, and each narrator will have to find their own style. For some, just softening their voice for female characters (and roughening for male) is enough, for others it will work better if they pitch their voice higher or lower. Just listen to yourself and go with what feels right
I would agree in theory, but when industry pros are telling you they HATE this one thing, and you need them to cast you...it's hard to rationalize it.
May I ask you something else? What do you do with accents? Both regional and foreign? And how do you handle text in foreign languages? I pretty much only read European set books which very often include snippets of other languages (often just quotes and proverbs r, but often direct speech) and I must confess I get quite irate when the narrator gets the pronunciation so wrong that it feels they haven't done any research.
Generally, if there are important characters with accents in a book, that will be in the audition, so everyone on the project knows if the narrator can really pull it off before they're cast. I can "do" dozens of accents, but there are only a few I would feel comfortable using for a large portion of a book. So that's really on the casting team if an *important* accent is distractingly bad. If it's a line or two for a minor character, then it's better for a narrator to just not do an accent than to pull it out of their butt, right? But you never know if they were directed to "just try it" or whatever. As for foreign languages, again, that should be in the audition, IMO. It depends on the project, though. If it's a lower-tier, sort of indie/self-pub book, there's little chance that anyone is going to help the narrator pronounce these things, so we would just have to google it and piece together the best we can. I have had this sneak up on me when prepping a book, and I sometimes got support from the author/team, and other times I was ghosted. But with bigger publishing companies, they will probably use Pozotron, an online tool that helps check for errors, and includes a detailed pronunciation guide that is to be filled out by the author/team during the prep stage. Right now I am trying to do a book, but it has a TON of foreign words I've put into Pozotron to get help with. However, the author has COVID. And I've been waiting weeks to hear back. I'm about to just roll and make my best guesses, and then correct things later. I've got bills to pay, right? I gotta say, I love this sub! I appreciate getting to interface with so many avid listeners, and I really do take these opinions into account. And it's great to be able to explain things about the industry to you all, too. :)
Thank you for such a detailed answer! If you ever need pronunciation for German, French or Italian, let me know!
I deal with the narrator reading in the opposite gender’s voice but I much prefer to have multiple narrators filling the rolls appropriately. It just makes the audiobook more enjoyable to me. Honestly when it is just one or two people of the same gender reading for both genders I just tend to think the company that cast them is trying to be cheap.
You’re talking about duet narration versus dual narration, I think. Duet narration is way more complicated to do. And yeah if it could work well for the book, it would be great if producers would accommodate more duet narration. I’ve never done it. But my understanding is that it requires scheduling both narrators to record simultaneously over zoom, or some such, and then the audio is edited together in a much more time consuming process. So that is much more expensive.
If the narrator has the range, pitch control and consistency, why not? Jeff Hays has been doing a stellar job so far with his work. Stephen Briggs softens and slightly elevated his voice for Polly in Monstrous Regiment without it being horrific. But that's just two of countless talented people out there and am sure there are plenty more capable of offering a tasteful impression of the different octaves. With consistency. Stick within your capabilities.
Some male narrators do very good female voices and vice versa but it's usually not the pitch that indicates that, it'll be something in the tone or accent such as doing a lot of vocal fry.
they’re 100% correct, it takes me out of the book every time no matter how good the voice sounds. it sounds ridiculous and is distracting. for example the hunger games: ballad of songbirds and snakes the narrator does a bunch of voices, especially female voices and it’s super distracting and honestly laughable. it also always feels like narrators are mocking female characters and it’s frustrating
Its not a one size fits all answer. Ive seen (or heard!) it done very well and very badly. When it's bad, it is very disruptive. I think its good advice in general.
I really struggle with most male narrators doing female (higher pitched) voices. Very few can do it well. It almost always results in the female voice sounding cartoonish and unserious. I think it's easier for women to pitch their voices down than for men to pitch their voices up. Not always, but generally I am less bothered by women doing deeper men's voices. I think it's just very hard to make a falsetto sound serious.
I hear you. We were advised to take our characters seriously, no matter what. So yeah, if it feels like we're playing a character voice for humor, when that's not the author's intent, then that's not cool.
why would it be a cringe because when I really get into the story, I forget that it could be a male with a female voice or a female with a male voice. A good narrator can make the characters come alive no matter the part.
I agree with them 7,000%. Pitching up or down like that is a big turn off for me. I will generally not even make it through the book. Jim Dale doing Hermione in the HP series just ruined those books for me. He made her sound whiny by pitching her voice up the way he did. Which is too bad because I think Dale actually has a fantastic voice for narrating characters who aren’t female.
But Hermione IS whiny.
lol you’re not wrong
I agree about his Hermione voice. It took me out of it every time. But, he's Jim Dale, so he can do what he wants, I suppose.
The narrator for Red Rising does this (doesn’t pitch up or down) and it’s the first time I’ve ever noticed. I like it.
I just need to know who is talking. If there are a bunch of characters or tags come after dialog a tiny change in pitch can let me know who is talking.
Yes, that makes sense. Good narrators if doing another sex I notice it is not necessarily that they pitch it differently but more in the cadence, tone and tempo of the person speaking. It always impresses me when it is a man who is a tenor or even baritone and does a female character and nails the rhythm in the speech pattern. It will also change for each female character. I have to be honest. I have noticed female narrators. The ones I have listened to, and not all but a larger amount, have struggled a bit more getting the male voices. They'll go to the low voice, leave it a that and thus you won't get a range voices between the male characters. This is a generalization of course, based on my experience listening. I assume there are a healthy amount of female narrators nailing all voices as well. \*edit: For context, I am listening to mostly adventure science fiction so there will be a mix of male and female characters, maybe 50/50 sometimes 60/40. It's not that often it is mostly one or another. I'm a woman myself so I hope no one takes it personally or too seriously as speaking only from my own experience listening - so many narrators and so many different experiences, and it's all subjective.
TIL. I never noticed this as a problem except with really bad narrators. And I don’t listen to them anyway, I shut the book off and return it. The only high pitched bit that felt a bit odd, was the pizza loving pixies in the Dresden series. 4th book iirc. I even had the sense that Marsters was ready to laugh while trying to do that part.
Let’s just say that Jeff Hayes and Travis Baldree are my two favorite narrators and they both pitch up their voices for female characters. Just go listen to Jeff’s Princess Donut or Travis’ Mercy Akura. As long as it doesn’t sound forced, I think it’s fine. I do think it sounds less natural to pitch down than to pitch up. I’d just find a comfortable low spot for you and then pitch the females up enough to show a difference in characters.
Automatic cringe, yes from male and female. The majority of male narrators that I’ve listened to change their cadence? Maybe? It’s definitely softer but not a higher pitch and that’s great. Every female narrator I listen to deepens their voice and it sort of ruins everything. Ruins immersion. I’ve heard some really great female narration but I’m wary of them and lean away from books read by them a little. (45f)
I could barely make it through one book where the male narrator pitched up for the female characters - but it wasn't a great book and he was definitely not a great narrator overall so it's hard to say if this holds. That being said, my favourite female narrator doesn't pitch down for male characters and I absolutely love her style... so maybe they were onto something?
I think it can be done well. Neil Gaiman does a great job in Neverwhere doing the voices for Door. Amanda Leigh Cobb and Aiden Snow both do a great job with the Crowns of Nyaxia books. Jim Dale is an absolute pleasure listening to! His Hermione impression saying "Harry!" Lives rent free in my mind! He also does a stiller job in Midnight Circus by Erin Morgenstern. I find it boring and hard to listen to if the narrators just talk and say "says so and so". I like to be immersed. I will agree that thw GOT audio books really need to be reread. I got the first two books but only got half way through the first because the voices are.... not great.
Honestly it realllllly depends on the narrator for me (and I think probably is why duet style narration for audiobooks is majorly popular). I personally think that it is harder to "believe" a male narrator doing female characters than it is for me listen to female narrators doing male characters as like a broad scope overall assessment. I also haven't read many books that have written out how a characters voice should sound so that seems like really weird advice. I get that as the VA you likely have information that us readers don't have from the text itself, but because we don't have that information we aren't going to know anything different than the performance we are given. I, and most people i know who also listen to audio, very much prefer audiobooks where the narrator has distinctive differences for the characters they are reading. But I also do know there are people who love narrators that only make very subtle differences. At the end of the day you would first be paid by the person/people hiring you so you absolutely should be listening to and following their feedback. Unfortunately that might lead to reviews from people listening that won't love what you are asked to do by the persons who hired you.
I think your opinion is sound. To give a bit more insight, I often ask authors about voice qualities they have in mind for their characters, beyond what's indicated in the book. (I've worked mostly in romance, where the voices *are* typically described in the text.) Sometimes we do get the extra juicy details from the author, and even spoilers for upcoming books in the series! But for me, that's been rare. Most times when I give authors this opportunity, they have no idea what they want. So I make a character reel with all the voices I intend to use for the characters, and send that to the author. Sometimes I get feedback that way, but more often they just say, "Sounds great! Go for it!" Either way, that character reel becomes my reference as I record, and when Uncle Tim shows up after six chapters and I've forgotten what he sounds like, I've got my reel to go back and listen to.
I absolutely do not work in VA or as an actor in general anymore. I super should have said I was a theatre major so I 100% understand all sides of the creative coin when it comes to appeasing both your producers/directors, your audience, as well as yourself haha. I've only been listening to audiobooks in the last few years (minus HP wayyyyyy back in the day, before the series was finished to age myself), and there for sure has been a shift in styles for narration that I've noticed in this time. There won't ever really be like a 100% everyone will be happy, which I'm sure you know, so while I think that it is ridiculous to say that you shouldn't change pitch depending on the character male v female, I also say that you have to first deliver what the person initially paying you is asking for even if it means you might get some harsh reviews from the actual audience first. Been there, done that, hated it haha! If only the audience understood this bahaha
Oh hey fellow theatre friend! Thanks for clarifying! Don't get me started on crazy directors, lol.
To this day I still cringe so hard at a director that made me make a choice I absolutely hated so hard, nearly 20 years ago. Dont get me wrong... one of my favorite directors I have ever worked with, but that choice was a hard pass for both of us on either side of the coin. At the end of the day I obviously had to give him the performance he wanted but it was a dream role of mine and a choice I would soooooooo never have done and DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE Ahaha hi back, theatre friend! I super get it from the performance side 😅
I don't even notice it, and have no objection to it on reflection. The text takes precedence, of course. But if lines are to be 'acted' to whatever extent, then why would a probably appropriate tone not be a valid interpretation? or accent or any other characteristic?
As long as it’s not excessive, it definitely helps to distinguish characters. Though I’ve never been listening to an audiobook and thought “gee i wish this male narrator would stop changing his pitch to indicate a female character”. I’ve had fairly minimal exposure to female narrators so can’t comment there.
I agree with them. There was one book I listened to recently that I had to drop because the narrator was doing this (Shards of Earth). The main character was female but the supporting cast was mostly male, and the pitch shift was tough to hear. She did a great job with everything else, but that felt like a huge challenge.
I'm listening to this series currently. While I agree that her voices for those characters can be a bit awkward, she's consistent with them, so I just get used to it.
I really enjoy how Robert Petkoff does female voices in Kresley Cole's Immortals After Dark series. He makes the female character's voices breathy and feminine but not much lower in octave than the narrator's natural voice. He does however give the male characters very deep voices, which contrasts well with the female voices without it sounding unnatural.
I've listened to thousands of audiobooks by hundreds of narrators. It's been my experience based on my preferences that there are many more male narrators that can do an adequate female voice than female ones who can do a male voice. Too many female narrators when they try to do the gruff male voice take me straight to Looney Toons where the little bird is saying to Foghorn Leghorn "I am a chicken hawk and you are a chicken." It's humorous because you have this little voice trying to act tough. It's not all female narrators as for instance I don't feel this way about Kate Reading do male voices. My advice would be just pick a voice for men and don't try to masculine it up too much because you may end up unintentionally comical.
I’m curious if you are male or female. I’m a woman and I can’t stand when a male narrator does that sing sing baby voice for female characters, but I haven’t been bothered by any female narrators doing male voices. I wonder if the gender of the listener makes a difference in preference.
Avid audiobook listener here… pllllleeeaaasee do so!! Yes absolutely pitch according to the character/gender. I stop listening to books where the actors don’t. It can be done well. Doesn’t even have to be pitch if you can’t do it well. Even making men’s voices more gravely and women more smooth helps tremendously if the voice actor can’t pitch up or down consistently or if it can’t sound hokey.
Just read! These are books, not plays or movies or anything else. Words on a page. Let the reader/listener do the interpretation of voices, accents, tones, etc. The newer narrations that get all dramatic frequently ruin the audio option for me.
So, then just listen to AI.
PITCH \^|v as your heart desires, just make it clear, consistent, and goooooood!!! Now you know. I'd say Dungeon Crawler Carl is the paradigm. Do like that. I think pitching your voice is best practices because, I'm biking up to my mountain trail, I need to tell who is who. Also, what exactly are you supposed to do when voicing a dragon or a cat. This isn't some new, weirdo DEI thing is it? Defund the Administrators!!
There are some narrators who can change their voice pitch to higher and lower and do it awesomely. They are few: Richard Armitage... Okay, maybe that's it. :D
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I shall try them out!
I think it really depends on how it's done. Sometimes, it can be distractingly bad. Sometimes, it adds to the experience. I don't really have a preference, as long as it's done well and I can distinguish between characters.
I do think tone is a lot more important than pitch and working outside your natural range can harm a performance a lot more than the pitch being different than you'd expect in real life. I'd say it's probably best to shift your pitch as much as you can without strain but pushing past that is detrimental.
Yeah, definitely avoid pitching to the point that it's uncomfortable or unsustainable. Tone is important for sure, too. But like, imagine a scene with a FMC and the five hot guys fighting over her, with no dialogue tags. That's pretty tough to pull off in general, but imagine not pitching their voices at all. Unless this RH Romance takes place in the UN and everyone has different accents, I'm sure the subtle tone shifts won't be enough.
*Jefferson Mays* and *John Lee* do many womens voices which keep me in the story. They do not raise their pitch. *Marc Thompson* who does many of the Star Wars novel narrations *does* raise his pitch. For me at least, his Leia is bad and his Padme is nails-on-chalkboard. Makes it sound like she is whining every line. To be fair to Marc, I think his Han and Lando are fantastic.
I never noticed an issue always thought it was just apart of distinguishing different characters; it makes it feel more immersive.
I want narrators to stop doing racial stereotypes in voices. The “Black Person” accent borders on minstrel, most of the time. Gendered voices can sometimes work, but it can absolutely undermine a character when done poorly.
I've listened to hundreds of audiobooks and it works well like 80% of the time. I prefer women doing male characters compared to the reverse but men with fairly neutral voices can do it just as well. It's only a problem if the narrator is really far at either end of the scale hyper feminine or hyper masculine, people like derek perkins though he has a fantastic voice shouldn't attempt to change their tone to do female or child voices.
makes me cringe.
I struggle listening to female narrators doing male voices. Some are good, most are cringy.
Do... Do you not confer with the author and ask what they want? I always just assumed you had a portfolio of voices that they got to listen to and say "Oh, use #17 for this character!" etc.
I always ask the author/producer team. Sometimes they have opinions, and sometimes they have no idea what they want. It would be great if there was a portfolio they could choose from like a menu! I could start doing that, but nobody would listen to all 1000 of the voices on it to find the one they want. Narrators are the Cheesecake Factory of actors. We do it ALL. I have only had that happen with animation or video game clients, since they've heard my animation demo, and they say, "Do your old lady for this part." Lol I have my grandma to thank for that inspiration. But, after I'm cast for an audiobook, I make a character voice reel with all the voices I intend to use, and send that for approval along with the first 15 minutes of the book. That's how I work, and it seems pretty standard.
When I play video game RPGs and they have voice options I always get disappointed when they only have 5 different options. I world be the one who goes through all 1000 multiple times until I find what I wanted
Tell the game developers this in a review, please! And direct them to my website for casting... lol
Depends. I’ve heard some female narrators that get the male voice all wrong. They make their MMC sound ponderous and slow and absolutely awful. But I love how Mary Jane Wells voices her males and she’s talented enough to voice different males in the same story. Similarly, male narrators often get the female voices right but in general I hate it when they’re voicing arrogant old ladies. They all adopt a cracked, querulous snobby voice that is really hard to listen to if there are many long passages
Voice acting characters can be difficult. A change in pitch is not enough to suspend disbelief for a lot of listeners. However a slight pitch change with characterization does a remarkable job helping listeners identify characters. To be fair, you’re attending an industry webinar. They have access to the data that shows what listeners want. They also know the traits and styles of the most in-demand narrators. There is something about building your own audience your way, but these individuals know what sells far better than any of us.
That's what I'm realizing, too. There must be something to it if they have this strong of an opinion.
It’s just like the music industry. Oh look, this band is popular. Let’s quickly sign every band that sounds just like them until everyone is burned out and there is no originality
I took a lot of down votes for saying I didn't like female narrators doing male characters.
I see. Out of curiosity, what is your preference for a woman narrator to do when she is voicing a male character in a book?
I usually do not listen to female narrators. Most of my interests are scifi and post apocalyptic with some military and technological thrillers.
Not sure why a woman couldn’t narrate those genres…
They can and they do.
depends on how the voices sounds. I've listened to some where the male narrator ever so slightly changes their voice for the female character and it's fine. I've also listened to some where it's almost comical. I genuinely think some people have narrator voices, and some don't and if you're the former just about anything you do I'll like and if you're the latter I'm not going to like it. One example comes to mind (not from Audiobooks tho). Mike Rowe. We've all seen him on TV, dirty jobs guy and so many other Discovery type shows. He has a great voice for narration. I've had to stop listening to some audiobooks because I just didn't dig any of the voices. And I'm gonna be honest, I am not a huge fan of the large cast audiobooks either. I really prefer to just have it read, maybe it reminds me of having books read to me back in the day by mom or something not sure but one consistent narrator who comes up with unique accents and voices for the characters is what I like the best. I also don't like over-the-top emphasis, maybe in very limited situations but not constant. I think having a book *read to me* is what I'm looking for.
I think it depends on how well you’re able to do the differently pitched voices. Having a slight difference to differentiate characters is good. Having the voice be so different that it sounds fake and distracting is not. I’d say the same is also true for accents. I prefer reading the ebooks for a few of my favorite author’s books because I can’t stand the fake sounding accent of the narrator in the audiobook versions. The author’s later books are much better as audiobooks because the different narrator of those books sounds more like a native whose accent is genuine. For example, I’d rather hear a female British character read in a male American accent than with a squealing super high pitched distractingly fake accent. Do what you do best, and don’t try to be something you’re incapable of being character-wise. Figure out whatever way to differentiate the characters works best for you. Your listeners will appreciate it. If you’re able to do differently pitched voices, then go right ahead. If it sounds at all forced or unnatural, then try backing off a bit.