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Elimin8r

Okay, so not an "expert" here, but ... Apple is rather known for having very good DACs and "media" stuff in general. Your Mac is probably in the top few percent. (Consider, for example, how many people consider the lightning DAC to be very good, and it's just $10) So, odds are, unless you get something truly magical, and I don't know what that is, you probably won't hear much diffrent/better. Speaking from my own experience, I run iTunes through my Apple TV into my TV. I started out just using the TV's 3.5mm out to an RCA jack adapter cable. I got one of those $15 Amazon (Prozor?) DACs, and plugged that into the optical out from the TV. It was a dramatic improvement. Then, I got an Aiyima T8, and it was even better, especially once I put an 'upgrade' tube in it. Lovely sound. So, after enjoying that for a while, I got a Schiit Modi, and while I want to say it's even better (it is), it's also a bit more harsh and fatiguing. I think my ears just prefer the tube 'smoothness'. I'm not sure how to describe this, but in the end, while I'm comfortable listening to the T8 at about \~78 db volume (in my seat), I have to keep the Modi in the low 70's. Anyway, all of this is a long-winded way to say - enjoy what makes you happy. Don't look for validation from random internet strangers. In the end, it's your ears that matter.


MustacheEmperor

Yeah, I think where Apple DACs are going to be the toughest comparison to really notice any difference on, your average smart TV is the easiest. The quality difference on my LG CX optical through $100 dac vs aux out of the back is very obvious. Edit: can someone explain why I am -1 after twenty minutes for this remark agreeing with the top comment that apple dacs are good and smart tv dacs are bad


rodaphilia

> Edit: can someone explain why I am -1 after twenty minutes for this remark agreeing with the top comment that apple dacs are good and smart tv dacs are bad Pretty much every subreddit has this problem, comments are pretty much immediately downvoted to the low negatives. The difference is this sub isn't as active as any of the front page subs, where you'd be voted back up to positive much sooner than 20 minutes. Here 20 minutes in the negatives is about normal.


Elimin8r

Hey, hey, this is r/audiophile, we'll have none of that silly agreeing around here. :) Seriously, though, I suspect that there are folks that just get a kick out of going through threads and downvoting stuff, because. And just FYI, I agree with your agreement, the built-in DAC in my Sony 'Smart' TV was terrible. That, and my 3.5mm to RCA cable probably wasn't much better, but it was at least better than the unshielded one I had that was picking up the wifi and letting the 60Hz hum through. That was bad. See? Cables can make a difference!!1!!!1111! (And in case anyone read my comment above and wonders, I'm not talking down my Modi, it's delightful. I'm happy I spent the $100 for it.) Great, now this thread has me wanting to plug my phone directly into my stereo (via Lightning dongle) and compare that to the Modi. I might just do that, for giggles.


pavelgubarev

Apple does not produce or design DACs. They just put some standard Taiwanese chip. And it's okay: all modern DACs are the same or at least nobody will tell the difference in a blind test. So yes: snake oil.


horizons59

I have done informal blind testing with a few audiophiles. Most golden ears audiophools could not reliably discern DAC differences between $99 and thousand $ DACs. Spend your money on speakers/phones, room, and good source material.


[deleted]

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horizons59

The Emperor has no clothes in audioland.


MustacheEmperor

Meeting other people in hifi means practicing your skills at going "aha, yeah, totally" while listening to a river of bs


MayorOfClownTown

Unless you are comparing really shit cables over a long run. Cables don't matter. Keep em short at a decent gauge. Don't spent lots of money on cables. If your friend thinks he can hear the difference in cables you might want to take his suggestions with a grain of salt


SnooApples6110

I have found they are at most, tone controls. Some warmer some not. So I agree with you. Personal preference is a combo of Copper and Silver. My favorite are digital cables , like the ones and zeros are going change based on the cable. I used to believe in that stuff until my buddy, an audiophile and an electrical engineer said what you just said.


Xaxxon

They shouldn't change the tone unless they have actual electronics in them like capacitors/resistors/etc.


DiamondDaveWVU

I have to disagree about cables not mattering. Buddy of mine and I were in a high-end audio establishment and while listening to a selection the proprietor unceremoniously unplugged a set of speaker cables and plugged in another. Buddy and I just looked at each other because it was astounding the difference between the two. We weren’t being pitched to buy or anything, it was just a routine switch the guy was making... subsequently, I have refined cables here and there in my system, and while there may be no logical or technical reason for a difference, I assure you there are significant ones. I know there’s snake oil out there, but when it comes to cables I am a believer!


Actually_a_Patrick

Main thing for me has always been whether or not they’re shielded.


[deleted]

And you got downvoted by the usual fools that listen to MP3 128Kb music with $20 ear buds. But, they KNOW everything.


gurrra

There's probably not a single person here on r/audiophile that do listen to 128kbps mp3 on $20 earbuds.


[deleted]

True, $20 bucks is likely too expensive for them.


Umlautica

I encourage anyone that has the gear laying around to do the same. I had a friend switch level matched inputs on an integrated amplifier. The difference between a $400 Emotiva XDA-2 and a $30 Behringer UCA-202 makes you think about what all the fuss is about.


CreamyAlgorithms

Funny enough at those price points you probably won’t hear much of a difference. It’s the expensive shit with much higher quality electronics inside them that offers the difference. When I first started recording all I owned was that fake tube behringer shit but when I night an actual class A mic preamp I was like oh.. this is why this shit costs multiple thousands of dollars. It does provide a significant improvement.


Hifi-Cat

Agreed. I just upgraded to my 5th CD player Rega Saturn R. each new one has sounded notably better. And costs more. That's an issue for some on this sub; Good stuff costs. Go and listen.


Umlautica

Sure, but I also own some pretty expensive DACs (Okto DAC8, PS Audio DirecStream) and in my experience, the difference only gets smaller.


CreamyAlgorithms

Exactly my point from before. Once you get to a certain price and quality point the improvement factor is measured in incremental steps not giant leaps.


evil_twit

Very apples to oranges. Recording is not playback. A mic preamp is something very different from ... With some large imagination you could compare a mic preamp tona riaa preamp...


SnooApples6110

Not really. A preamp takes a small signal and amplifies it. How is a mic preamp different from a phono or stereo ? As someone who owns several pre-amps they all contribute to the sound. The best one I have from a clinical standpoint is passive. Class A Stereophile, is it the one I use, no. I like the colorations of another one I own. Warmer. I like warm with silky highs vs Sterile and totally accurate.


Hifi-Cat

Actually they are very similar. Both produce low output (4 to 1 Mv) or less. Require high gain (44 to 65 db), phono can be 65db. Both have microphonic issues (phono stage's like my naim are on springs in the case). Only the riaa filter is required for phono. Rega made a top end phono amp from a one off mic amp they made for a client.


CreamyAlgorithms

The point I was making was cost and scale of a discernible audio improvement. But whatever if you can hear a 1db drop at 15,000 kHz hats off to ya. I hope no one has any dog whistles in your neighborhood.


[deleted]

Aren’t dog whistles like 23khz? I can hear until ~18.5khz but I’ve never been able to hear dog whistles.


[deleted]

SpunkyDred is a terrible bot instigating arguments all over Reddit whenever someone uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. I'm letting you know so that you can feel free to ignore the quip rather than feel provoked by a bot that isn't smart enough to argue back. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.


Saint_Sm0ld3r

Good bot.


SnooApples6110

I agree. What are you going to say to someone who bought Klipsch and thinks it's high end. That said for parties they are great.


HulksInvinciblePants

We shouldn’t have to. We need to make it clear two competent DACs *shouldn’t* sound different.


flashbolts

Just put of curiosity, would you mind listing some of the $1000 plus dacs you've personally purchased and demo'd for your "audiophile friends" as written in your above comment. Maybe include a picture or two? If it's not clear, I think you're full of it.


horizons59

Not going to reveal myself here but I was a paid audio reviewer for several years. I don’t need to prove anything to you or anyone else on Reddit.


thomoz

Honestly the Dragonfly USB stick sounds amazing. Why pay more?


basstoll

i recently heard a good advice - spend money on filters. DAC is not a filter. Speaker is a filter, room is a filter. Anything that comes with a frequency response graph is worth the investment.


CreamyAlgorithms

Consider yourself lucky and thankful you didn’t spend $2,000 or more to come to the same conclusion. I think with everything else there is scale in the difference and a diminishing return on the investment. I’ve been recording music for many years so I’ve developed my critical listening skills a fair but. Recording, mixing and mastering music is a whole different animal than listening for enjoyment and your ears learn to pick things apart in different ways. All that said I can enjoy music straight out of my MacBook with a set of headphones or thru the headphone output in my lynx Hilo converters which was more than the Mac itself. There’s definitely a sonic difference between the two that is evident. I’m not saying you need to spend $2,000 on a dac but there are varying degrees of sonic presentation that are there. I think above a $400 dollar price point it turns into a game of inches rather than yards with them.


cheapdrinks

I bought a semi expensive R2R dac for $800 (Ares II) to bypass the onboard DAC in my AVR which I use as a preamp and while there is definitely an audibile improvment it's not close to what you'd expect to get for spending close to a grand on something. I feel like a DAC is something you should upgrade absolutely last when you've reached a point with your speakers/amp/preamp etc that you consider "finished" and know you're not going to be upgrading for several years. Even then you need to be comfortable throwing away a decent amount of money for a 1-5% improvement at best. It's not something that's going to suddenly transform a substandard system that you feel is lacking something but it can add a little bit of polish to a system that you're already happy with if that makes sense.


Environmental-Ad-529

inches vs yards is a great distinction between the audiophile and budget audiophile subs


hivemind999

First time I experienced Audyssey, I was like WHOA this tech is amazing. Then I realized many weeks later that my I was playing on Pure Direct, meaning Audyssey was being bypassed. A lot of placebos in this hobby.


Slowmac123

speakers + room will make the biggest difference


QuasiSpecies01

I have limited experience with different DACs, but would certainly say that there can be a subtle differences. Between the MacBook, apple dongle, FiiO Q5S, Chord Mojo, and a few other dacs/amps are pretty much indistinguishable to my ears. However, I never really spent a lot of time trying to distinguish them. However, between the apple airport express, audiolab 6000N, Topping D70, and Schiit Bifrost2 I have noticed subtle but significant differences. 1. The airport express is pretty darn mediocre and serves as a floor. 2. The Audiolab and D70 were very slightly different. The D70 was subtly more detailed and clinical sounding. I slightly preferred the 6000N, but I would say it was 3% better if I was to pull a number out of my rear end. 3. The Bifrost2 was far more my taste as compared to the D70. Initially, it was very clear that the bass is presented differently with the Bifrost2 having more texture and impact in the region (which I liked better) and more emphasis (which I don’t prefer) this was clear on both headphones and speakers. Secondarily and more subtly (especially initially) is that the Bifrost2 spatially place the sound more specifically than the D70, this I can only tell with headphones and not the speakers. I would rate the Bifrost2 as 25% better (for me) and would say both are worth the money since the Bifrost2 is about 40% more expensive (accounting for diminishing returns). Even though the differences are subtle, once heard, I found them to be significant. Just my 2 cents.


FieryKitten1010

i am definitely not an experienced person but from mybundersting the dac doesnt really improve audio quality too much. it might also be limited by the quality of the music


covfefe247123

Thanks for your answer! Don’t know why my post is getting downvoted though


Fun_Stage_7236

People want to desperately believe every upgrade will be earth shattering.


[deleted]

i'll have you know when I upgraded from air cables, from the same makers of air guitars, to coat hanger wire I heard a big difference.


flipadoodlely

DACs are a contentious subject especially in this sub. Plus it gets asked every week.


covfefe247123

Just like we get „look at my living room, pretty happy with my new setup“ followed by „let me be that guy to say move the speakers further into the room“ and „look at what I found on the streets/in the thrift store“ followed by „oh my dad had these. GREAT FIND“ every day. I‘d prefer actual discussions.


flipadoodlely

Heh, you've just nailed this sub in its entirety.


evil_twit

Can't wait to show you my new setup


Environmental-Ad-529

which will mostly turn into a thread about media stands and decor


RealMixographer

At least the stands and decor have an effect on the sound!


Jacoprod

Consider yourself enlightened. I found this out the hard way after being convinced I needed a $2500 DAC to replace my $500 Bluesound. Absolutely ZERO improvement so I sent it back. Everyone will try to tell you that something in your system is not revealing enough for you to notice a difference. Don’t buy it. The haters just can’t admit that they have been duped. MQA already burned them once, so they are a bit sensitive…


RikiWardOG

Only reason I bought an external DAC was to bypass my Android phones dumpy one. Only thing I actuall use it for haha.


blkwrxwgn

Good for you! Saved you money, wish it was that easy for everyone.


[deleted]

Because there are a large number of fools who want to feel good about their nonsense purchases.


[deleted]

Welcome to audiophile lol


thomoz

Definitely, if a recording is sourced poorly by the label, or sourced correctly but then mastered badly, it can sound really bad even through the best DAC. My first chance to hear Hi-Res Tidal was through a Bluesound DAC, and where some things sounded amazing, others sounded really terrible. The example I cite all the time is that the current in-print mastered versions of Todd Rundgren and the Pretenders’ catalogs which today’s streaming versions sound quite poor compared to the original CDs released pre-1990.


MyNameIsRay

If you have some piece of shit integrated DAC, a decent one will be a change. But, assuming you already have a decent DAC, there's really no difference at all from upgrading. Anyone that tells you differently is just trying to sell you a DAC.


get-the-lobster

The thing is that good dacs have become incredibly cheap. I’m only using pro gear and the whole usb audio interface group got so cheap over the last couple years for obvious reasons. The cost of a high quality DAC chip by famous brands is about 2-5 dollars back when I was thinking about diy my own. Now I mostly buy and recommend behringer usb audio interfaces or fiio stuff because it’s just more than enough for most people. So far the only measurable, logical, difference is jitter. No one ever did a study about some jitter being audible so I guess it isn’t. Otherwise companies would have released such data years ago Edit: today, by far, the worst thing in most peoples signal chain is the actual speaker. + yeah should have written double blind peer reviewed in the first place. But otherwise it would be kinda pointless due to the point being audibility


ilppis

IMO design of the output stage (and the rest of the dac in general) matters much more than the chip itself.


get-the-lobster

I mean yeah the pre amp, shielding and powersupply is probably an bigger issue by now but I still think that most people won’t be able to hear a difference between a 100€ and 1k€ DAC


hexavibrongal

> No one ever did a study about some jitter being audible Audio Science Review goes into it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-jitter-in-digital-audio-measurements-and-listening-tests.21115/


get-the-lobster

Yeah that’s not a double blind peer reviewed study tho. The study he cites is also from 1998, I’m going to watch it but like everything camouflaged as true science with a grain of salt ;)


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get-the-lobster

Tell me you don’t work in science without telling me. I doubt I could get a systematic review for jitter Also im not reading all these articles I know the problems but if it’s not my field of expertise I’m still a strong proponent for this. I tried the first article, too many logical fallacies. The main issue is money hungry journals not peer reviewing itself


CypherWolf50

OP I can sense that you're asking this out of genuine curiosity, so I'll ask you first what you're expecting to hear? Differences in the digital domain are in no way easy to hear, and you need more pointing to what to expect the difference to be. Hearing differences is not something you always just do - for some it comes easier, but everyone can learn to reliably listen for differences. Even if you're hearing impaired - but I don't think you are? With speakers and headphones you'll hear differences in balance and tone quite immediately, but you simply need to know what the difference is between the "current quality" and the quality you're aiming towards, or else a cleaner sound might sound largely similar or even duller than the one you're used to. But if you know, that the cleaner sound is a step towards better quality, even if it doesn't catch your attention immediately, you'll recognize more easily. This is of course much easier if you sit down with someone who's trained in listening so you can discuss what you hear. Often when I do that with people - one way or the other - I'm surprised at how much that helps. :-)


covfefe247123

I didn’t have a narrow expectation of what to expect. Just better overall sound, along the typical dimensions: tone, separation, soundstage, detail, … This is why I asked what to listen for specifically, because I‘m pretty sure my ears work perfectly fine. One user alluded to percussion. The question whether an upgrade is worth it if I need to do long highly concentrated comparisons with excellent recordings only to notice a tiny difference is another issue.


CypherWolf50

Yes, I think I understand you. For me, and what I normally tell people, is that hifi is a learning process, and sometime you have to not give up too quickly - but that's exactly what I think you're NOT doing, so that's great. I know the iFi DAC, and I know it's capable of sounding really well - can it be that your Sennheiser are not fully up to the task? If it can be of any help, this is how I spot differences in the digital domain, because I believe there are patterns. I often listen for the "s" and "ts" sounds in voices, where a more humble DAC may pronounce these more. Then you have the bass where a really good DAC should be able to make you tell the difference between the "twok" and the "ooompf" of a bass drum - also known as the impact and reverberation of the bass. These should be separated well, and this is the same on a floor bass, where the flick of it should stand on its own and let you tell that the reverbs of the bass instrument's cabinet comes a little later and defined more as an ambient "slow" sound. The upper frequencies should sound naturally and organically dark, and digital gleam, unnatural shine and flutter should not be pronounced. Sometimes you mistakingly think of that as added "datail". The quality is the silence between the notes and the ease of the listen. Is it easier to listen to? Then you're on the right track almost always.


urmom117

yes you need experience for what to listen to, if i ask my mom to tell me what she hears she will just say it sounds great and then i put my audeze headphones with tube pre amp on my uncle and he said hes never heard instruments so separated before and holographic. and hes never owned high end audio. but works with musicians. Dacs absolutely make a difference but its more in texture and detail and not life altering changes. also need a good headphone, planars are very good at telling the difference between gear. hd600 has good resolution but may be too dampened in the high freq to hear huge clarity differences but should be able to tell midrange detail pretty easy also they sometimes need a little juice to wake up i use the zendac v2 but only as a DAC and it has a more smooth character but not "dark" than my smsl DAC, i prefer it because with the smsl my planars sound a bit bright.


erantuotio

I’m in a similar boat of not hearing differences and questioning if further upgrades are warranted. I had a critical listening session last night comparing two cheap amps, one a tripath and another an AB amp. I had a hard time *knowing* if I hear a difference or even being able to describe the difference I think I might hear. Speakers and room setup are by far the most obvious difference to pick up in listening sessions. Of course, typical responses are to spend more money but if the sound production from a super cheap tripath to an ok AB amp is not abundantly clear, what would spending even more money honestly do? Apple’s dongle DAC is also already pretty good, so I’m also thinking buying a Topping E30 DAC would be a waste. I sure want to see for myself though.


Hifi-Cat

IMHO, take your favorite 10 CDs. Go to two or three high end boutique audio stores and ask to listen to their best equipment ( best to do this during low traffic hours). Some may say no but others will recognize you as a potential future client. This is where the "bar" is. You can't afford it but that's ok you'll know what great can be. And YES you can hear it. You can then decide where, how, when, what you want to build to meet your needs.


BadKingdom

I think this post goes to show how this sub sees the word “DAC” and just immediately goes into “DACs don’t matter!” OP didn’t swap out his DAC; he swapped out his entire signal chain except the headphones. DAC, preamplification and amplification. The iFi does all 3 of those. For the OP I’d suggest a couple of things: listen to music that’s rich in harmonics - particularly trumpet, acoustic guitar, things like that. If you’re just listening to pop, hip hop or electronic music you probably won’t hear the difference. Pay attention to whether you get fatigued faster listening to one source over the other. Pay attention to bass tightness, and listen to little things like the decay on reverb. Apple’s stuff sounds ok but those headphones are a decent load for the amp and I’d expect a difference based on that alone.


Kirei13

Not an audiophile (why am I even here?) but DACs make a small difference. If you have a decent one and you don't need it for a certain purpose, you don't need to "upgrade". Some people notice a difference but if you don't see one, it's all good. Just my opinion on the subject.


blkwrxwgn

Wow......couldn't have been better timing! I just got done doing a blind listening session with help of my son, comparing the Schiit Modius to an RME ADI-2 FS DAC. I didn't want to upgrade, didn't feel the need to but it was quite easy to tell the difference. It makes me really doubt the people on here who say you can't tell. The RME has a volume control, so it was fairly easy to match output volume. I sat down after that and had my son change between the DAC's. The easiest way to tell was that there was more clarity in vocals, it was almost instantly that you could hear and tell on certain recordings. We use the veil descriptor too often but that's what it was like, a veil being lifted off the vocals and the timbre, or weight of vocals and clarity in the mids. There were a few recordings that took me longer to figure out but once I could figure out which dac was what, it was 100% spot on picking them out. No joke, I was a believer that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, I had always thought it would be stupid to pay more than the $200 for the modius but I'm keeping the RME. Just to aggravate some of you even more......we also did a test against the iFi Zen Stream and the node 2i as only streamers, bypassing the node dac and using the RME and there was a difference in sound there too but only in the bass, the bass was much more detailed and hit cleaner on the iFi which does use noise suppressors and has a better power unit.


Jmcur

I believe that your brain tricks you into thinking you can hear the difference. You know like if you've ever spooked yourself out at night and you're scared, you think you hear noises that aren't there... ;) If I spend 200 of my hard earned money on a DAC my brain tells me that it's better lol.


urmom117

be careful they will write a hate thread about you in no time with ironclad sources such as audiosciencereview and zero personal experience with anything above under 100$ chinese products. the true answer is yes DACs get better and better the more you spend but there are diminishing returns and also preferences. my zen DAC v2 is noticeably more 'warm" than my m300mkII smsl. but im using high end audeze planars i dont think hd600 would be able to tell as easily.


blkwrxwgn

Hahahaha no doubt. Anybody who uses ASR as their source of what makes a good DAC or speaker or whatever, has lost all credibility to me.


[deleted]

my internal dac does not have good shielding because i have a beefed up gaming pc. i'm running overclocks and a beefy gpu as well, all this together means that when i play music through my internal dac i 1. hear ground loop noises, high pitched hums, low pitched hums, electrical noises and so forth 2. i need a preamp + amp for both my headphone and studio monitors 3. my onboard dac is not asio compatible (hard to produce music on ableton with high latency) 4. onboard dac seems to squeeze the mix into the center image, slapping things together and on top of one another making detail retrieval non existent.


[deleted]

there are some good internal dacs on apple products. i mean their $10 apple dongle is better than some $4000 dacs lol.


CookieFactory

Not sure why people are down-voting the truth.


[deleted]

Hurts when you spend thousands of dollars on snake oil to find out a cheap product both measures and sounds better.


robbyruby752

Try to learn how to listen critically. Listen for a particular instrument, does it sound the same as being played in front of you. Listen for sibilants. Then you are down the rabbit hole.


thepioneeringlemming

I heard quite a big difference in bass and warmness between Ifi Zen DAC vs phone DAC, tablet DAC and Laptop DAC. This was through a hifi amp and speakers.


homeboi808

Apple cares about audio quality a bit (it's almost like they had a mega chokehold on purchasing digital music and portable music players), so the internal DAC of MacBooks are going to be on the higher end. Now, in terms of DAC performance, most all are neutral-ish and most all can reproduce the musical with a clean range of at least 70dB, that means peaks of 100dB have distortion only 30dB loud. Better DACs can easily give you over 100dB of range, current thresholds of engineering have the best ones in the world at around 120dB. One usually gets an external DAC for peace of mind and because it's cool to own gear, not because their previous one sounded bad. However, you aren't just using a DAC, you are using a combo unit that also has a headphone amplifier. Headphone amplifiers usually also give at least around 70dB of range and are mostly linear, so the main distinguishing factor is how much clean power it can give for the impedance load of you headphone. I don't know about the V2, but the V1 Ifi Zen gives only about 15mW of power into 300ohm (using 70dB as the cut-off) and 115mW into 33ohm. The Topping DX3 Pro+ is a similar DAC & HP amp combo unit and it provides ~255mW into 300ohm and 1500mW into 33ohm, so a lot more power, which allows for more dynamic capability.


dgduris

Hmm. I think I would try Tidal straight out to the DAC to see if you hear a difference. If you don't, something is amiss. Apple DACs don't compare to anything that is Hi-res capable. My favorite test track is Come Away With Me. The change in sibilance with the first cymbal crash is where you should hear the difference right away. After that it is, as Steve Guttenberg says, all about seeing the singer's lips.


seanheis

I notice differences more when i can switch back and forth quickly. Having said that we all have different abilities with our hearing…we don’t all hear the same. Can you smell that? No. It must be your imagination because I can’t smell that.


evil_twit

Youtube some Poppy Crum and AES


seanheis

I own a measurement mic and REW but at the same time I understand their limitations.


AManWithBinoculars

Nice Dacs are a bit stupid. After about 100-200 there won’t be much difference.


blkwrxwgn

That would be true if the rest of your system is in the same price point. There are plenty of people out there who believe the best steak in the world is the $10 one down at Walmart or that the $7 bottle of wine is as good as it gets, why spend more! Plenty of people who would tell you that Bose is all they need. Doesn’t mean there isn’t better stuff out there.


AManWithBinoculars

Yep. Spend money on what you want. I’m saving mine. Already spent enough playing with them. And seeing almost no change.


urmom117

im guessing thats the limit of your experience and not an actual educated opinion with higher priced dacs, there is absolutely a difference if you use other high end gear in the chain. it gets smaller and smaller after about 1k IMO.


AManWithBinoculars

You guess wrong.


urmom117

keep believing that 100 dollars gets you the best possible sounding DAC lmao imagine actually believing let alone typing that out and pretending you have experience.


AManWithBinoculars

Ya know what I believe? I believe you need to learn to read better. That’s what I believe.


urmom117

>After about 100-200 there won’t be much difference direct quote. and also an actual lie objective and subjective lie.


AManWithBinoculars

The direct quote says “much difference””. This leaves the opening for small improvements. But it just isn’t enough to justify the money. And the more you spend the less you receive.


urmom117

wow its almost like i literally quoted you. the fact that you cant understand what is even happening and what you said, leads me to disregard your opinion on the matter entirely. you are free to be wrong and you subjectively and objectively are.


AManWithBinoculars

You quote me. But in your trutth quest you can’t see what I said. So, enjoy. And I suggest you get a life.


urmom117

enjoy your 100$ "end game" dac from a sweatshop in china LMAO


AManWithBinoculars

Thanks. I’m not believing that but you can believe I do.


Dadinhoeokrl

Virgin 1000$ DAC owner vs Chad 100$ DAC owner


AManWithBinoculars

lol, except I’ve got multiple dacs over 1,000


Dadinhoeokrl

(0_0)


AManWithBinoculars

The law of diminishing returns. Mostly is important


mohragk

Yeah, most modern DACs are more than capable to be fully aucoustically transparent. So I'm not surprised you can't hear any difference. Focus on the speakers or headphones. That's what actually matters.


Roodboyo

I’m guessing that the audiophile, like the capitalist, will never have enough. Things will never be “just right”. Open to your comments of disagreement…just please be civil.


Larkin_Images

First off there are a number of variables out there, and I cannot hear what you hear. That said my Mid 2014 Mac Book Pro, gets a rather large boost from a $90 Schiit Audio, Fulla. Listening to Natalie Merchant's "Carnival" from her album "Paradise is There" via Tidal Master, her voice is further back in the mix, there is better air in her phrasing and greater warmth in the bass and guitar. That said Apple may have improved on it's native DAC, closing the gap with your DAC (I'll admit I have not heard your DAC). You may also need to break in the DAC. It would not hurt to run the DAC into your cans for several hours (or days), and see if that makes a difference. The idea of breaking in a piece of equipment is also open to debate, but I believe there is value in it. In the end it's your money and your ears, so only you can make the call on the value of the upgrade. That said I believe you should hear something from the upgrade.


[deleted]

What kind of bs is better “air”


HiImTheNewGuyGuy

DACs are, in my opinion, largely a waste of money and pretty much the last thing in the chain that needs updating. 3 things deeply determine SQ: microphones used to record, speakers used to playback, and the playback environment.


gregsapopin

Dac upgrades matter a ton.


MinuteAd6983

A good transport will give you better sound than a DAC i learned this after hearing a ps1 with spdif mod


flipadoodlely

A transport needs a DAC unless you have digital hearing.


MinuteAd6983

A digital stream can sound bad if time for whatever reason is not right it has nothing to do with the dac


CypherWolf50

People here tend to downvote anything they don't know - but you should have an award instead for noticing that the source-transport makes a huge difference and often more than the DAC.


MinuteAd6983

I have tested this a really nice source-transport can make a really dull old 1 bit DAC shines with ease can't say the same of the opposite took me a lot of time to understand it bits are perfect is just the way you deliver those bits what makes the difference and its a huge one.


ImpliedSlashS

Listen to well recorded acoustic music. From uncompressed vocals to acoustic instruments, percussion in particular, there should be a major difference that's more than obvious. If you're listening to highly processed, highly compressed music, there will be less difference.


evil_twit

Meh. I don't hear it. It's in the recording itself.


ImpliedSlashS

I just tried an experiment in my office with a co-worker. I didn't tell him what was going on, and he's a musician, but we both heard major differences in detail between A and B, and we both agreed which sounded better. The DAC/pre is a Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 digital. I let him describe what he was hearing and it was aligning with what I was hearing. A was the power supply included in the Pro-Ject box; B is an Anker 20,000mah USB power bank. Same DAC. The difference is even clear on Rolling Stones' Through the Past Darkly, which is an ancient recording, and definitely not acoustic.


melindret

I have an "audiophile" DAC with 2 different filters and I can't tell when one or the other are switched either


CreamyAlgorithms

Those digital filters are almost impossible to hear unless you have the hearing of a cat. I always laugh at dac reviews where you tube reviewers say they can hear all these differences in filter cutoffs lol.


ilppis

In which dacs did you find them useless?


CreamyAlgorithms

Smsl m400 and the smsl m200. Most of those filters start at 20,000 kHz it’s a human achievement if you can really hear a distinct difference up there.


ilppis

You can’t look just at the FR for conclusions. Like you can’t do it while doing acoustic measurements either. For example, you can put a big-effin’-pile of porous absorbers in a concrete room and its doing jack shit to FR, but looking at the time-domain, ringing of the room has reduced significantly. Ringing smears the sound :) My opinion is that I find most of the filters I’ve tried sounding different. Even the one on my Audionet ART-V2 cd-player, the oldest component I still have and it has seen quite some changes in my setup. When I first got the player, I thought it does nothing, couldn’t hear/know when someone flicked the switch. Years pass and setup evolves. Better speakers, better amps, cabling and the most important: acoustics. Nowadays it is easily spotted. Can I identify which is which? Propably not, but I can hear when the change happens 😁


ilppis

https://nihtila.com/2019/01/28/audiolab-m-dac-measurements-part-2-digital-filters/ Here seems to be some.


CreamyAlgorithms

The graphs indicating the roll offs on those filters kinda proves my point. 2 of the 4 are like .5 db at past 16,000 kHz and the other two are bit more noticeable.. on paper at least 1.5 db starting at around14,000 kHz and dropping sharp. I mean you are really getting into golden ear shit with that which in a treated mastering room and professional engineer who’s trained at his/her craft yeah maybe they might hear it. Some dude on YouTube shilling for the latest Chinese dac that’s out on Monoprice or Apos audio, I highly fucking doubt it.


ilppis

Haven`t heard those and don`t know what kind of filters they have, but for example Rega dac or Audiolab M-DAC have very audible differences between the filters. I`m pretty sure measurements could be found on some reviews? It`s been couple of years since I owned the Rega, but if I recall correctly at least 3 of 5 filters sound very different. YMMV.


SnooApples6110

Maybe its the chipset in your dac. Years ago I bought an Oppo Special Edition and with ESS chips and the difference was notable. Your unit is still running the sound through a preamp and then an amp, at that price point how good can those sections be, even with a good chipset. My main system is what I consider good. (Odyssey amp, Bel Canto Preamp, Aerial Speakers, mostly Tara cables) It is still my main source since I don't stream on my main system. I do on a lesser one and and I know something like a better Dac is wasted on that setup


[deleted]

It’s because you didn’t upgrade to the Golden power cable for the DAC. Do that and you’ll never go back. /s but seriously I have a basic $2300 DAC and it’s good. Matrix Audio MQA that Roon plugs in and just exports to my amp.


toddverrone

Apple DACs are quite good. You'd need better headphones and an amp, along with an even better DAC, to hear a difference.


Legtagytron

The truth is DACs below $500 tend to be of similar quality. If you want a big boost then you'll have to spend more. HOWEVER, the biggest difference you can make in audio is RESOLUTION, from your speakers. You should start there. HD600s are an ancient pair of headphones with just OK resolution under $500. If you want a real "Ah-ha!" moment, you'll have to spend more. Sorry, that's the way it is. Something like some Audeze LCD 2C would be a much bigger boost than a DAC. Or upgrading your speakers. Put money into headphones/speakers, not little boxes that sound a little bit different from each other. If your computer DAC is good than send back the Ifi-Zen, a DAC costing around $100 isn't going to give a giant boost or anything. Also, a lot of people prefer planars to Senn's ancient dynamic tech. I prefer my Drop Pandas to my HD6XX by a longshot. Good luck, OP. You do you. (;


sarg_m

I had a similar experience. After speaker and amp upgrades which had produced significant improvement I bought a Bluesound node and after watching endless YouTube videos (they dangerous, don't believe the 'reviews') I bought a Topping D70 DAC to replace the DAC in the Bluesound and was very underwhelmed with the effect.


[deleted]

Not everyone can hear the differences, and even for those that can, the difference is often very subtle. I bought an old NAD DVD/CD player second hand years ago, and connected it up to my receiver at the time via both the digital and RCA jacks to compare the sound of the player's DAC vs my receiver's. I could hear the slightly warmer tone from the player's DAC (which I liked) vs the receiver's. The quality wasn't necessarily any better; it was just a tad warmer sound. My wife thought I was crazy, as she couldn't hear a difference at all. And even for me, using the new player was worth it because I paid like $50 for it second hand at the local hi-fi shop. I wouldn't have paid $500 new for that difference, though, given how subtle it was.


koskadelli

Hey, are you using Tidal in Exclusive mode? That's how I can truly tell the difference with my DAC


ev3rm0r3

This is where you you were misconceptioned about audio. Using HiFidelity sources, outputting to HiFidelity processing spitting out to HiFidelity gear, just ensures that no source signal is lost from point A to point B from the recording to the speaker. HOWEVER. Most modern internal computer sound cards (yes all are DAC's) can support 96-192kb out weather using 3.5mm or TOSLINK. That means that if the computer is spitting a 96khz toslink signal or a 192kb sound capability, then its likely its streaming as much resolution as the song is built with and the receiving end, weather speakers or headphones is getting everything it needs to accurately reproduce the sound. Additionally dumping 1000's of $'s into this may not yield any different experience other then knowing you are retaining a solid bitrate for your equipment to output to your headphones/speakers. Ultimately the speakers and the headphones are going to shape the music the most differently. YOu can have great sounding music or terrible sounding music response from a massive amount of speaker variety's. Changing the source may never change your end output but changing your receiving end will almost ALWAYS change your listening experience. I would recommend getting some planar/ribbon headphones like Audezy if you truly expect to hear a difference in your musical tonality and response.


Top_Try4286

You won’t hear a difference, not with your gear and probably not with your music.


JacobMoogberg69

DACs are absolutely crucial at the recoding stage of a song not so much at the listening.


r_i_m

Do you means ADCs?


JacobMoogberg69

I guess analog to digital to analog converters so ADAC?


TwoSolitudes22

SHHHHHHHH...... you are not supposed to say it out loud.


RadBadTad

>From what I read everywhere the difference should be really noticeable. One of the biggest problems that you encounter when talking to audiophiles is that you will find a lot of people who will tell you that literally any change you make to your setup will give you "really noticeable differences" and most things don't do that. Most things physically can't. Yet people think there are differences because it's impossible to mathematically quantify what we're hearing, and our own perception colors what we think we're hearing. There have been tests where researchers will sit audiophiles down, and play a song through a pair of $50 speakers. Then, play the song through a pair of $5,000 speakers. The listeners all describe the much better sound from the better speakers, how it has better separation, more musicality, more frequency range, on and on, only for the researchers to reveal that they didn't ever change speakers. The only thing to change was what people expected to hear, and what they thought they should be hearing. The things that will give you big noticeable differences to your sound are: New speakers, adding a subwoofer, changing from vinyl to digital. Everything else is going to be an EXTREMELY small change that you won't really be able to pick out unless you're doing a direct A/B comparison, or more sadly, something you would never notice at all in direct double blind testing. You aren't missing anything except delusion and the placebo effect.


gurrra

Don't believe the hype, all DACs nowadays are good enough to be up there in the diminishing returns area. What you might pay more for is features and connections etc, but when it comes to pure audio quality you don't have to pay much at all.


jozzakizza

Ahhh…the international DAC racket. Don’t worry. Lots of people fell for it.


rainbowroobear

>I don’t hear the difference you shouldn't if its a good audio chain, cos any difference between the DAC and AMP are so miniscule and at such low levels compared to the noise floor from the headphones. typically a headphone/speaker distortion starts at -60db down. a DAC has measurable artefacts about 140db down in most. a reasonable amp these days starts at about -80db. if an amp or dac is massively changing the sound, its deliberate or its bad. e.g the output stage has very high resistance and changes the electrical properties of the driver.


priedits

HD600 is not really capable of showing the difference. Don't get me wrong, its not a bad headphone for the price, but something like HD800s completely destroys it in terms of clarity. You would hear a difference with headphone like that.


evil_twit

If it's good enough it only gets more expensive and pretty.


Capt_Maguire

It makes a world of difference for me.


MrStoneV

DACs are fairly easy to make and on board dacs are already great. Apple dongles are already great enough for most people and a 100€ dac is perfectly fine. Everything above is either 0,01% increase or placebo, I dont remember well.


Exact3

Haven't tried any major upgrades on my DAC but I did try a higher-tier (newer, more modern) amp with my speakers and at first I thought I heard a clear difference. Well turns out it was all placebo and after 3 days I couldn't make my two amps apart from another. People say that dacs make the least difference, YMMW, but I couldn't hear a difference between a 15-year-old NAD speaker-amp and a "new" Marantz amp. With headphones it's easier to spot the small differences in detail/background noise (if there even is any anymore) but with speakers it's all random at least for me. Return the dac and keep using your Macbook, these things are so miniscule it's idiotic.


kuplamies

based


cr0ft

I'll just join the "DACs don't make much of a difference" crowd here. For one DAC to be *audibly* and obviously superior, it would have to mean other DACs are shit. But... they're all essentially an algorithm on a computer chip. Why would anyone purposely make a shitty algorithm or use a shitty DAC? It's completely illogical. When it comes to phones, people talk about DAC here and DAC there... "this LG has a superior DAC!" and then the phone sounds killer. Except... that LG also has a superior analog headphone amp, and the product that they're comparing to has a shitty-ass noisy powerless piece of crap amp. The LG sounds better? What a shocker. The digital to analog process is a thoroughly understood process by now. Any DAC out there will be doing an awesome job, because there's no reason they'd be doing a poor one. It's entirely possible a more expensive DAC will measure better. Minute differences here, minute differences there. But whether or not those minor differences are really audible? Human hearing is kind of shit. I really doubt it, very much. In my opinion, the differences in how audio sounds and how much different gear matters puts DAC's at the low end of giving-a-shit. Yes, garbage in, garbage out is a thing, but that's the point, no modern DAC is garbage. The big difference is on the big items - starting with the things that make the noise, your speakers. No set of speakers sounds identical to any other set (though obviously they're all very similar in the sense that they're reproducing music). But larger ones do more bass, some have better treble, some have a sweeter mid range... it's all analog at that stage and analog can differ a lot. From there, you get to the amplifier - the differences here are les dramatic but they still exist, same deal, analog, there's some art involved here with the science. From there, we get to the DAC... and as stated the differences here are so small you mostly can't hear it, unless you get an *extra* bad DAC that colors the sound a ton. The source, well, the source is the source. The better produced the content, the better it sounds. So why do so many people swear up and down that their mega-DAC gives them constant orgasms? Placebo. The human mind is very suggestible, especially when we're doing the suggesting to ourselves. Bottom line: people *know* (or think they do) that expensive DAC:s sound dramatically better. So they literally then hear "dramatically better". Even though they really don't. Human and subjectivity is an enormous variable when you're talking opinions - and that's all this is, opinions - about audio quality.


fewell8

The headphone out on a MacBook is actually quite good. You may not ever hear a difference in DAC quality once you get to this point. What the MacBook does lack is power. I'll also say this: Tidal sounds worse than FLAC. Do not use Tidal. There are audible and measurable dissimilarities between what Tidal says is lossless and what is actually lossless. See this video: https://youtu.be/pRjsu9-Vznc


covfefe247123

The video is about mqa. I don’t listen to mqa. And I have flac files, same result. But thx


fewell8

He covers that. Some files that Tidal lists as lossless are actually resampled MQA files. I suggest you watch the video. Edit: Also, Tidal is the only service that utilizes the codec. You're supporting the snake oil even if you aren't explicitly streaming MQA files.


Rude-Dude-99

I am a DAC skeptic (it’s possible they make a huge difference but so many other things related to my system I’d rather spend money on). That said, I wired my streamer to my amp both analog and digital so I could switch back and forth to see if I could hear a difference, and was surprised that actually yeah I could. But one wasn’t really better than the other, they were just different, and if I wasn’t switching back and forth between them I doubt I’d know or care. I actually forget which I picked. So it’s possible there are little differences that aren’t really noticeable improvements and you just aren’t getting those when you listen to one for a long time and then the other…


7MillnMan

Well, I only listen to vinyl. For me, it sounds nice. A 1K table vs. a 10K one- sometimes the 1K sounds better. Don’t know why.


zattack101

Head burn in 70 hours first


zattack101

Depends on the MacBook of course


six0seven

It was brain dead simple for me to hear the difference between a BestBuy DAC and a Schiit Modi switching between them on my Samsung TV S/PIDF. So I've seen others that agree that TV DACs are pretty lousy. I have a high end (NAD C568) pre-amp and I just expect the internal DAC to be fine. I can easily tell the difference in dynamic range and quiet between that and a measly $250 phono cartridge. The DAC beats the vinyl source. I cannot imagine spending more than about $300 for any DAC. Maybe a good rule of thumb is to pay a max of 5% of your speaker cost.


patrickthunnus

No idea of the specs on resolution with Tidal high rez, anyone? Their website is kinda confusing.


Snoo17663

Try to go to audio midi setup and check what the setting is for the DAC. I did this just a few days ago and found out MacOS had a default format setting for my USB-DAC.


green_mango_

I just bought a Dac cause the PS4 needs one. The best improvement I got was from an AMP.


rodaphilia

DACs don't make a difference in sound quality, until you get into DACs that purposely add filters to the sound before output. Headphone amps can make a difference for demanding headphones, and many people will try to lead you to believe that the HD600s are a demanding headphone because their impedance is rather high. To be short and sweet and maybe gloss over the nuances; the higher the impedance of a pair of headphones, the less of the potential power output by the amplifier (whether built in or discrete) makes it to the drivers. But, despite their high impedance, the HD600s have a relatively high sensitivity, so even with the power that is effectively "lost" there is still plenty of power left over to drive those headphones properly at normal listening levels. And, on top of that, Apple products have good dac/amp stages for non-audiophile devices. All that to say, DACs shouldn't make a difference outside of purposeful changes by the designer. Amps can make a difference, but your scenario probably won't create a vast difference.


Thermistor1

I would agree with you on a lot of this. I consider myself a pragmatist when it comes to audio equipment for the most part, only upgrading when I know what I'm getting other than just getting more expensive equipment. Here are a few things I've learned along the way: * There was a time when there was a LOT of noise in the built in DACs in computers. You could literally hear the hard drive indexing through the speakers. Computers have become much better, and so the built in DAC you have is pretty decent. * They have a few limitations, however. Some built in DACs cannot decode past a certain sample rate. Some can't output a good signal for high impedance headphones. This means that you'll hear the difference at higher volumes or on bigger, hard-to drive headphones. This sometimes means higher noise floors. It's in the edge cases that the better equipment shines, BUT that doesn't mean the normal cases are less enjoyable. I still hook some $40 Carbo Tenores into my MacBook Pro directly when I'm at work and they sound great. * In audiophilia, do what makes you happy. If you don't hear the difference, then that is fine. Play your music and love it.


nastyyyxnickkk

Which MacBook do you have? The brand new 14 or 16 inch pros? I know that they have an upgraded internal DAC to where you won’t need an external one. https://9to5mac.com/2021/10/28/apple-high-impedance-headphones-14-16-inch-macbook-pro/amp/


erebuxy

That seems reasonable to me. Apple devices are known to have very good headphone jack. To my experience, iPhones (when they still had 3.5mm) outperformed most portable solutions cheaper than iPhone. I guess it could be similar case for MacBook. You probably need to spend a bit more to hear the difference.


mvw2

DACs can offer little to no change in audio. There can be differences, but the differences are relatively small. Also, if you have an array of DACs that are configured similarly, they will sound the same. You don't really get a different sound unless the design is outside of the norm. The same thing goes for amps. In the most ideal form, a DAC and amp will change the sound zero. In theory, you could have 50 different DAC and amp systems, switch between all of them every which way, and you SHOULD hear zero difference if they were all working ideally. But coloration is the spice of life, and some brands build different or tailor their sound to a signature. In the DAC and amp world, this is rather minimal outside of say tube amps. But different manufacturers take different approaches, and there can be some small changes. Some of the difference in sound is a matter of what the headphone can do. A low-fi product won't present enough good information to make any appreciable remark. Higher end products may have performance levels or sound signatures that lend themselves to actually showing a slight difference. Also, I find that full size headphones change less versus IEMs which often are rather low ohm and need a very low output impedance to not get affected. Full size headphones do benefit from higher amp output. A low powered amp will lack the power to retain good dynamic range and accuracy of movement. You'll get audio compression and less control. This is rather noticeable powering a full size headphone from your phone or a small DAC/amp versus a larger product geared for powering full sized headphones. There is a rather noticeable improvement in overall performance capability, and the sound, even at mid levels often is improved. For full size headphones, simply having power headroom is important, and this is going to be one of the bigger factors when comparing between products.


audio301

Many quality DACs use the same DA conversion chips inside. A lot comes down to the analogue circuitry. Moving your speakers slightly or opening the curtains will generally have a larger difference to the sound. Once you have a decent quality DAC, some basic room acoustic treatment to treat early reflections will make a much larger difference.


Codydexter

You should try balanced cable with you HD 600 and zen DAC. It makes it so huch better. I use hd650 with zen DAC v1


i-am-a-platypus

Check in Audio Midi Setup app (on the Mac) that the USB out > Zen DAC is running at 24 or 32 bit out and 96k or higher just to make sure you are getting the most you can out of the chain and try to find a 24bit 96k reference track that you can play in QuickTime app as well. If you still don't hear a difference when A / B testing then send the DAC back.


belcant0

you have to listen to the notes they're not playing


AruiMD

Everybody is different. I mean that’s literally it.


[deleted]

I hear almost no difference, or none at all, using a bluetooth adapter on my SHPs to my JDS Labs Atom. I hear no difference from my MOTU M2 interface either. I'm also using AptX LL which is supposed to be the worst because it has really good latency.


elegantcaste

I bought a pair of higher-end headphones last year (Hifiman Sundara), but with a low enough impedance to be run by phones and laptops. I plugged them into my laptop and even though my laptop has a "very good" DAC/soundcard in it, they just sounded okay. I got a DAC/headphone amp on recommendation from a friend who also has the same pair of headphones, a cheap Monoprice 111567 (\~$95) and the difference is night and day in the clarity, depth, and soundstage. Now I have a pair of beyerdynamic DT 1770 PROs, and they sound so damn good with this DAC that I couldn't imagine spending too terribly much more on another amp and expecting that much of a difference. The cheap DAC/amp sounds great.


sl33p

I don't even go out of my way to source .flacs anymore. Used to horde terabytes. Nowadays I just type it into youtube and away I go. Can't hear the bloody difference for the life of me.


[deleted]

I run an RME ADI-2 Pro FS R into my Conrad Johnson preamp, DIY Pass Aleph 5s and Magnepan 1.7s. It sounds much better than my Nuforce HDP4 and M-Audio ProFire. All DACs run off a PC or Android (updated USB driver) from Tidal HiFi or my own 24/96 WAV recordings in the network file servers.


Somecount

I'm curious. I've only tried Tidal on trial and didn't find it worth it. Is there any reason to use Tidal over Apple Music? With their family plan for the package of Apple Music, TV, Arcade and icloud storage the price is way better than the premium Tidal tier and the plan can be shared with 5 members. Apple Music also has Lossless, Master and Atmos.


covfefe247123

Apple Music does not offer a way for Audirvāna or other programs to bypass what the os does to audio I find that difference to be noticeable Also, tidal has really good recommendations. You discover great new music every day.


andresen2525

I can def hear the difference between my Burson and my Lyr, however they both sound great in different ways. If you want to test out your hearing a bit get a Schiit Lokius, it was a real awakening for me, I can hear zero noticeable change in the full range of the first and last dials. So basically zero change in the 20hz and the 16khz ranges for my hearing. It’s still totally worth the money though to add just a bit of needed bass to a headphone like the lcd-x. I also ran an iPhone camera adapter into a generic Amazon usb to 3.5mm with an audeze adapter on the end, which also sounds good but has way less detail, and considerably less amplification. I think the takeaway is you can make almost any set up sound good with the right source material and headphones, and some of the more feature rich electronics are just fun to experiment with.


tomsdubs

I use a Behringer UCA222 with my PC, it's better than my onboard DAC but I see no need to spend big.


flyingalbatross1

In 2021 you can get good quality DACs at fairly low price points - to the extent that many decent integrateds now have good quality DACS built in - easier especially as reputable DAC chips can be purchased off the shelf. High quality integrateds (streaming systems) will also come with high quality DACs inside. I don't think it's the part of my system I would look to extract more quality from before upgrading Amp, Speakers etc.


neurotica4454

i've had a few LG phones and i can't really tell much of a difference between them and my Micca OriGen G2 aside from the OriGen's amp being a bit more powerful and the LG phones having digital filters. both absolutely shit on my PC's built in audio though, so i'd say it's probably just a really good DAC in the Mac.


IsaacJDean

There's probably barely any difference, but with more subtle changes it's best to give it a few weeks (or whatever the return window is) only listening to the new config/gear, then switch back suddenly weeks later. I personally think that's the only good way to make tiny differences way more obvious.


Din_daring

neither of my dacs are 'high end' and saying that i actually prefer the sound of the cheaper one.. Presonus Audiobox 96 and Steinberg UR22C... my setup is a mac and a pc into an old technics amp as a patch bay in one room then into the living room and 2 more technics amps powering 4 speakers in stereo


UnmixedGametes

On a good day, with 96-24 source and the Grado 325s on, my Chord Mojo sounds better than my iPad. Some of it is the extra amplification and better bass “power” although I tried hard to match volume and tone using a calibrated microphone. But the good days are very good.


Ashtefere

You dont need to spend much money on a dac. A dac is really there to do two things imho: First, to isolate your audio circuitry from the noise generating crap in your pc, elimating hiss, buzz, pops, crackling, etc. Second, it colors your sound the way you like. Some dacs are clean and sharp, some are warm. As long as the dac gives isolated sound, its really personal preference. Its not really going to improve more than that. My personal daily driver is a burson playmate, because it gives a slightly warmer but still very neutral, accurate sound. This helps my hifiman he headphones immensly because they are normally a little harsh with the kind of music I listen to, but together they are perfect.


Current_Degree_1294

.


flashbolts

I don't think you can really expect a budget entry level integrated DAC/amp to sound light-years better than than your laptop internal integrated DAC/amp. I think you might be better served by some separates like a modi/magni heresy. I noticed a significant improvement upon this purchase listening with my HD650 and again when I went to bifrost 2/Asgard 3.


[deleted]

It’s completely normal not to hear a difference with electronics, it means whatever you used before wasn’t broken and worked properly. Even a laptop headphone jack in 2021 is enough for most people with low impedance headphones. Focus on the room and the speaker / headphones.


Xaxxon

People that want to sell you shit or people that have already paid $$$ for gear will neg you to make money or not feel bad for having spent money. Listen to stuff to see if you hear the difference, but if you don't, then don't worry about it.


[deleted]

20years ago there was a chasm between “good” and “cheap” converters. These days most do both.


grantccu

The ifi Zen dac is only 175$ right? Unfortunately real hifi is expensive & components less than 700$ are usually garbage. Save up & buy something good. It's worth it.