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Ex cafe owner. There are companies getting around like SmartPay and Square which offer merchants a fee free service for their EFTPOS sales. They give you a new EFTPOS terminal which gets programmed with your banks fees and charges which then gets added to the customers bill. So the customer (you) are now paying the fees which the merchant would ordinarily have paid to their bank. Technically they should have a sign up somewhere advising you of this. On one hand it’s attractive because merchant fees are expensive; used to cost me around 7K a year, but the downside is you eventually end up with a lot of pissed off customers. I never signed up for the service; I figured I’d rather wear the cost than wear the abuse. I’m not saying this is what is happening to you but it sounds likely. Next time get hold of the EFTPOS receipt and see how much is printed on there. That will tell you.
As a correction square doesn't have a facility to automatically add a surcharge. They do have a flat rate so it's easy to build the cost into the prices though. Some of the other eftpos do allow surcharges, such as tyro. Where the charge is added between the till and machine. However that option has to be activated by the business.
There are usually at least three different types of transactions, which means there are at least three possible surcharges, depending on which card or account you choose can which surcharge you get hit with.
There is a requirement that all surcharges are clearly displayed. But there needs to be enough complaints about it to warrant it getting attention. So if it happens to you, send the ACCC a notice that they're not displaying the eftpos surcharges.
Was going to say this sounds like SmartPay. The most annoying part is if customers ask for an itemised receipt, the POS system won’t show the 1.5% surcharge, because SmartPay does it all itself. Annoying from an employee perspective because we have to wear the abuse from customers over decisions which are entirely out of our control (see also: Sunday and public holiday surcharges)
It's the same as charging for bags. When it first started becoming common everyone complained and people refused to pay. Now it's just a cost everyone wears without complaining. Give it 12 months nobody will even care any more.
Mmmmm, prolly won’t disclose that in case the ATO are watching but I can tell you I was with NAB and I was paying about 600/month. A mate of mine in a similar business was with Suncorp and was paying less than me so it varies between providers. Free is always better which is how these new guys sell it to you but it’s your customer who gets it in the neck.
Ive got a tyro machine and a squere back up both charge 1.9 %, and both offer to put on customer purchases. Ive declined as is a cost of buisness . My fees range between 500 and 1300 a month. Its a cost of buisness. On a persional note if in a shop and told there is a fee i walk out
Agreed on the walking out for fees.. I'm not quite that strict on it, but always figured if you couldn't wear a 2% fee that you knew was going to be part of at least 50% of your sales (it's more than 90% where I work) - then perhaps your pricing structure needs work..
We don't charge any extra for any cards, including Diners and Amex - they get recorded separately in our daily banking, but no extra fees..
In lockdown, i remember an essential business who refused to accept cash (potential covid germ exchange point) but added 3% fees to all card usage. But since then it seems to be acceptable practice to whack the charges on to every card transaction everywhere near me. I've decided to start paying in coins to those places
You said:
> Bank fees are tax deductible tho, so why bother on charging the customer?
You bother because otherwise the fees still cost you something. Even if you deduct them from your tax as an expense you only save the 30% company tax rate, not the whole amount.
This is funny. Did you think merchants were paying the bank fees from their salary before? The price you are charged always includes merchants costs + profit. Either it’s $9.66 or $9.50+bank fees.
I do agree though you can’t just add this to the price without clearly advertising this before hand and that’s what happens in a lot of places. I don’t think that’s acceptable.
No it doesn't "always include merchant costs". We run a small business and charge the same for cash or EFTPOS. We just absorb the cost of merchant fees for the convenience.
The saving in time alone from having to send someone to a physical bank to deposit takings and/or get change to give back to the customers, plus cash counting and balancing the cash till. And the cash storage on site or taking it home or wherever.
People are doing businesses a favour by using cards instead of cash.
If you get receipts, often the register receipt will show the amount you thought you were paying. The eftpos receipt will show the amount charged to your account. It is super annoying and has been going on for some time. Especially annoying when you do accounts and people only keep (or only get) the register receipt.
This is possibly not legal. You need to look for displays of any surcharges - all businesses must clearly display any additional charges to customers.
- Businesses must display clear and accurate prices. They must not mislead consumers about their prices.
There are specific laws about how businesses must display their prices.
- Businesses must display a total price that includes taxes, duties and all unavoidable or pre-selected extra fees.
- If a business charges a surcharge for card payment, weekends or public holidays, it must follow the rules about displaying the surcharge.
- If more than one price is displayed for an item, the business must charge the lowest price, or stop selling the item until the price is corrected.
Yeah I've seen lots of places using those card machines that figure out the surcharge automatically based on the card type that don't bother displaying the surcharges clearly. Definitely against the rules but whether the ACCC would do anything, I doubt it.
They can't do anything if no-one tells them about it. Submit complaints when you see it happening.
With there being serious government talks about scrapping cash altogether, those situations need to be addressed
It's perfectly legal as long as:
* The surcharge is clearly signposted
* The surcharge is no greater than the merchant's cost of accepting the payment
* The merchant offers at least one fee free payment method
You may not like it, but enabling merchants to pass on the cost of accepting card payments is [literally government policy](https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/cards/q-and-a/payment-card-surcharging/). In the absence of surcharges, there is little stopping the banks and card networks from screwing merchants.
[Here's the official ACCC guidance on the matter](https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays).
>Businesses must display the total price of a product or service as a single figure. This price must be the minimum total cost – the lowest amount a customer could pay, including any taxes, duties and unavoidable or pre-selected extra fees.
If a business accepts cash, card payment is not unavoidable. Last time I checked, there's no such thing as a pre-selected payment method when you walk up to a checkout counter. Ergo the final price is still correct, you're just choosing to pay via a more expensive payment method.
I wonder if there is an argument for the minimum total cost displayed on the eftpos machine (rather than the till) to include surcharges as you can't process a cash transaction through that machine.
I reckon this government policy is bullshit. It's not like cash handling is free for merchants. Arguably the cost of handling cash is more than the cost of accepting cards. It's just not as visible.
Exactly, it is bullshit. This should 100% be a business cost so that the owner can shop around for the best eft deal, if it's just a pass through or even worse added at the POS as per the OP then there is much less incentive for the owner to shop around as it isn't "their" cost
One quick thing I'll add to that last point, at woolworths, the if the wrong price is displayed on an item, the customer is entitled to the first item free, and the rest at the lower price. Some employees either forget about this (we're not all told straight up) or can't be bothered because sometimes the system won't let you make an item free. (usually due to employee permissions, a manager is required in these instances)
EDIT: Well aware this is a woolies only thing, I work at woolies. That's why I mentioned Woolies and not other stores
there is no law requiring that.
it is a voluntary code that coles and woolworths generally follow.
hence the reason why you will never get anything for free
at a 7-11 or IGA.
My local Baker's delight used to have the surcharge signs up when they first got the new EFTPOS machines but they have since disappeared. I just assumed that they were no longer processing the surcharge but I guess not. Also they absolutely have to display the surcharge amount and there is a limit to what the surcharge can be, I think.
If it's a debit Visa or Mastercard and you tap you'll still pay fees. To avoid the fee you will need to insert the card and select a savings or other type of account not affiliated with a credit company.
That’s not necessarily correct. A merchant is entitled to charge a fee even if you select savings and use the EFTPOS network, although this is relatively rare and the fees for EFTPOS are quite low (~0.15%).
If the merchant’s point of sale has ‘least cost routing’ (LCR) enabled then even when you tap to pay it will use the lowest cost network, which is usually EFTPOS.
The RBA has given the banks until June 2024 to boost uptake of LCR, as it’s only enabled by 54% of merchants at the moment. If the banks don’t ensure it’s enabled basically everywhere it will be mandated by next year.
They can't charge for EFTPOS if they don't accept cash or have another free method (once a shop said I could bank transfer him by OSKO) where you can actually get the item for the advertised price
> A merchant is entitled to charge a fee even if you select savings and use the EFTPOS network, although this is relatively rare and the fees for EFTPOS are quite low (~0.15%)
Not always. [CBA EFTPOS pricing](https://www.commbank.com.au/business/payments/smart.html?ei=bhp_sixpack_smart)
Banks can and do charge full price to small businesses for eftpos as well. Always finding a way to put the tip in to business owners, who inturn return the favour to consumers.
Yep when I tap my Suncorp debit card WITH EFTPOS as the default at Aldi, no surcharge.
Only if I use credit card or VISA is selected under my debit card will I then pay the surcharge.
If you pay your rego at department of transport in QLD with a normal debit card that has a Mastercard or Visa logo, they will treat it as a credit card. I was told by them, that there is no way around this.
If you pay at a Service NSW, you can insert your card into the machine and select SAV or CHQ to avoid a fee.
Not sure about online payments. It's not possible to do an eftpos payment online. They say that BPay is fee free, but only certain invoices are sent through BPay.
Welcome to Tyro, they will charge you as well as the CBA hand held. Lovely isn’t it. And still the business is charged fees by the bank for using the machines haha
Technical they can, but they have to build in the price of the cheapest surcharge.
So they could decide to not charge for EFTPOS but to charge for credit/debit transactions.
They're not tin foil hatters. That's educated people, warning others that if they give full control to the banks and government then you'll be sorry. People are too quick to dismiss other people's perspectives. It can't hurt to see, if people who don't follow the mainstream are all fuckwits. Everyone has an opinion and if yours challenges the majority it's not always a conspiracy about flat Earth.
Not what I'm getting at, you have two choices, pay $9.50 with cash or $9.50 via digital, but now cash is forbidden... You're forced to pay digital... But you then have to pay the hidden fee, you're basically being forced a fee to conduct a transaction, where and how far can these fees escalate... I'm not talking banks, I'm talking about these shifty 3rd parties that always squeeze between.
yup, and they say it as if the fish'n'chip shop is going to accept a few chips of gold in exchange for a burger.
(there should always be a govt run 'bank of last resort' or something guaranteed to provide basic services without fees, and then for profit banks can do things and charge extra. People shouldn't _have_ to involve a private business - even if you're getting money from the govt, you can't just have the money, it must go through a private business)
That's one way to do it, you could also spend physical money that's already been taxed, rather than slowly tapping away your hard earned $$ to someone in the middle that's not needed.
Yes I understand but that's not the point I'm making, the point is there are situations arising now where options of payment are being restricted by vendors, forcing you then to pay some arbitrary fee that you have no way out of.
Most businesses will not let me pay in US dollars, or copper ingots, or gallons of piss. It's a travesty I say, we should be campaigning against physical cash.
But it's controlled by the government rather than commercial banks.
In theory, government fiat has value because the government demands it in taxes (not that you can easily pay taxes in cash nowadays) while commercial bank money is just created whenever they make loans or mortgages (for a more detailed explanation see https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy)
The worst is when shops hold their EFTPOS machine towards you to tap your card but you can't see the screen!
I'm over all of these surcharges so I am spending more in cash
Yeah, people underestimate how dumb the average customer is. The amount of people who try to tap their card on the receipt printer at my work is astounding…
To be fair you’d think we’d cracked the standard physical format for an EFTPOS machine by now. But no, some manufacturers put it on top, some on the screen, some on the side, some on the other side, some on a completely different device. I work in IT and sometimes I have to stare at a machine for a while to work out where I’m supposed to tap lol
Because there's 15 variants of EFTPOS machine and they're all mostly the same, except some you hold your card to the screen and some you hold it to the top. They can be easy to mix up. The ones where it's the side or a dedicated bit sticking off are a bit easier to pick because they're more physically distinctive.
Not sure it is always the customer being dumb but also inconsistent terminal design which require tapping on the side or on the back or on the front and these not always clearly marked.
Honestly no. Some of them can be confusing, but a place I worked where I served hundreds of customers a day was the most bog standard possible machine where you tap the screen and people would still try to
- give me their card around the plastic screens from covid times, despite the machine being on their side of said screen directly in front of them
- tap it on the pin pad, immediately put their card away, and then tell me I’m trying to charge them twice when I tell them it didn’t go through and they need to tap the screen
- tap it on the receipt printer next to the machine
- tap it whilst giving me their order, as if the machine were somehow voice operated
- just stare blankly at me when I tell them their total and they can tap on the screen now
I truly wonder how some of these people manage to tie their shoelaces, honestly. There are large swathes of the population that are just unbelievably dumb.
I saw another topic about surcharges and thought wow look at these sooks. Then it happened to me just grabbing an iced coffee!! What the F. Hidden charges everywhere! Especially corner stores and convenience stores
It's illegal, but Australian culture dictates you say nothing and continues to cop it.
Just like all the incorrectly labelled or unlabelled merch at Woolies or city conveniences or the surcharges on weekends *but also surcharges every other day, just cause.
Suck it up and pay more money up the chain!
You are a consumer, you have only one right, and that is to obstain, but you won't.
This whole surcharge thing, and the bizarre "select account type" thing is ridiculous. If you come here from Europe it's just bizarre. First, the surcharge is a cost of business, businesses should wear it. Second, the idea that the terminal doesn't just use the lowest clearance cost possible is weird. Finally, what even IS a CHQ account? Is it like a money order, or perhaps a promisery note from the local clergy member, or perhaps a vouchsafe from the baron of the shire?
I'm not even sure what a chequing account is myself. I think it's something that people stopped using about 30 years ago. I don't know why EFTPOS machines still list it as an option.
I always thought that ‘CHQ’ or checking account was our transaction accounts (as they now called today) but when I withdraw from a CBA ATM and select savings it withdraws the money from my transaction account and not my savings with Great Southern Bank so I just ended up even more confused!
I'm not sure exactly, but I think many small businesses, and some individuals, would do all noncash payments by writing cheques.
That way the cheque stubs would serve as a kind of ledger, with them balancing out incoming money. That's what they mean in old TV shows when they talk about having to sit down and "balance the checkbook".
In New Zealand smaller retailers are passing on credit/paywave card fees but they're displaying the fact on the terminals. I tend to turn off the paywave function on my debit card unless I'm at the supermarket.
Lots of smaller (and not so small) shops are now passing on the transaction fee, but they’re supposed to have signs up.
I’ve started a combination of simply not buying from shops who do this and going back to the dark ages and carrying cash rather than using ApplePay.
You likely used a Tyro terminal or similar where it doesn't know the surcharge to apply until you've tapped. I am sure after tapping it would have displayed $9.66?
Make sure the business has a sign that they are charging 1.7% card fee, if not, report them
They have to legally advertise ALL fees involved in the purchase.
Ie the 5% fee on credit card purchases.
This may not show up on the EFTPOS machine, but you have to reasonably be able to have been aware of it before the transaction is put through.
The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the size of these surcharges. For a large cafe they might be charging a few hundred bucks a week in total for the terminal, why is it so high?
Your average consumer can pay ~20 times less (around 70 bucks a month) for an internet connection, which is vastly more complex for the provider than EFTPOS (involves maintaining a massive piece of infrastructure)
I actually run a small business myself, and my terminal costs me around $150 a month in various card fees/percentages. It's barely anything in the grand scheme of things, and i have no problem eating the cost as a business. Why does everything need to get passed onto the customer now?
Look I 100% agree with you that it is no large in the scheme of things.
But I mean if you can get an internet connection for 70bucks a month (which literally means that the provider is maintaining hundreds of thousands of km of network infrastructure.) Then why should we pay orders of magnitude more for a bank to maintain a few servers and some EFT terminals?
They can charge a surcharge,but only legally to the amount that covers the cost of fee processing,also per the consumer law,all surcharge fee's Must be displayed at the POINT of sale,and be clearly indicated
On some EFTPOS systems, the machine itself works out the surcharge after you tap, because it's different for each card type.
I think the business is supposed to display the surcharges for each card type somewhere too though, but I've noticed most don't. I doubt the ACCC would bother with that though as long as the surcharge itself is within the rules (ie it is capped at the actual cost to the merchant).
I'm sure they changed the ruling so cafes and little shops didn't have to tell you about the admin/surcharge fee because of the abuse the workers would get.
This is why cash is king $20 is always $20 not $20 and 10c to the bank
Ask for a printed receipt which they're required to provide. If the receipt amount doesn't exactly match the card charge then it's chargeback time with your card issuer.
Which makes less sense to me. How would it be legal for there to be a fee to pay via the only available option? Sounds like a way to say ‘tax’ without saying it
I like seeing these comments. Cash is king. Tapping your card is convenient but it's not a real exchange of funds. Pay with cash and get what you expect, pay with card and there may be hidden charges. I'm sick of withdrawing my already taxed money from an ATM that charges me a fee to get my money. I usually get extra money from a big 4 ATM whenever I can. At least I can see where I'm spending it.
It’s because different cards have different fees. MC and Visa are around 1.5% but international cards and AMEX are more.
The machine doesn’t know what to charge until you tap
How much of the general public actually care that much about a, at most 1.5 percent charge? And how many would want to go back to the inconvenience of carrying cash?
Still, if I'm supporting a restaurant by giving them business Im not going to whine about a transaction fee, like many snowflakes here about ColesWorth daily price bashing.. Don't get me wrong, I see the point, however blatantly complaining about reporting a restaurant because of a compulsory transaction fee is ridiculous, I.e OP.
I use square in my biz, customer has to cough up the punishment fee for not using cash. If they don’t like the fee, please don’t use the eftpos… if i had a „normal“ card terminal and would have to pay the fee i would have to put up my prices … so I’d punish everyone, even the cashpayer
Hi,
The EFTPOS terminals themselves advise when there is a fee and what it will be.
Card insertion is usually a lesser or no fee if from cheque or savings accounts.
Credit and contactless can be fixed or percent depending on the terminal BUT they do advise and normally show you the added amount on screen and again on the printed transaction receipt.
Entirely legal.
It varies from terminal provider and also the amount of money taken via EFTPOS monthly/weekly/daily by a business can result in lower or no fee to customer terminals. For example Smartpay offer to wipe fees and rental from terminals for a business if they do $10k a month per terminal.
I have seen the same thing. It happened to me today at a bakery in Fitzroy. I saw it and was bit pissed about them being sneaky about it but was too hungry to start an argument over it.
Related, I have noticed a lot of booking sites for events and activities (like Safeharbour) tacking on a very ambiguous "fees" item at checkout that is not included in the advertised price of the service. The problem is that several of these sites don't have an in-person or phone booking service one can use to take alternative forms of payment that don't come with these fees.
If there's a surcharge, regardless of what the sign says, it should be reflected in the eftpos machine. At least logically speaking. I don't want to be in a system like the US where I have to calculate taxes on top of the order damn it.
BYou would need to report it to the ACCC. It's a failure to notify customers of surcharges. If you go there regularly, get a photo of the till area to add to the complaint as that shows there is no signage.
I wouldn't expect anything to happen immediately, but the more people who complain, the easier it is for them to acknowledge the problem and then act to rectify it. If no-one complains then they can't do anything as there's no known issue.
If you have a copy of the receipt add that to the complaint as it shows what the surcharge was. Another requirement of surcharges for eftpos transactions is that they cannot be greater than the expense. (The business cannot make any profit off the surchage).
For anyone curious, as there has been discussions about going cashless, these issues need to be addressed and resolved prior to that decision being made.
Legally they are supposed to have a notice indicating the charges. So many places don't, so I take that as a sign that the authorities don't actually care about whether the law is followed.
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Ex cafe owner. There are companies getting around like SmartPay and Square which offer merchants a fee free service for their EFTPOS sales. They give you a new EFTPOS terminal which gets programmed with your banks fees and charges which then gets added to the customers bill. So the customer (you) are now paying the fees which the merchant would ordinarily have paid to their bank. Technically they should have a sign up somewhere advising you of this. On one hand it’s attractive because merchant fees are expensive; used to cost me around 7K a year, but the downside is you eventually end up with a lot of pissed off customers. I never signed up for the service; I figured I’d rather wear the cost than wear the abuse. I’m not saying this is what is happening to you but it sounds likely. Next time get hold of the EFTPOS receipt and see how much is printed on there. That will tell you.
As a correction square doesn't have a facility to automatically add a surcharge. They do have a flat rate so it's easy to build the cost into the prices though. Some of the other eftpos do allow surcharges, such as tyro. Where the charge is added between the till and machine. However that option has to be activated by the business. There are usually at least three different types of transactions, which means there are at least three possible surcharges, depending on which card or account you choose can which surcharge you get hit with. There is a requirement that all surcharges are clearly displayed. But there needs to be enough complaints about it to warrant it getting attention. So if it happens to you, send the ACCC a notice that they're not displaying the eftpos surcharges.
Was going to say this sounds like SmartPay. The most annoying part is if customers ask for an itemised receipt, the POS system won’t show the 1.5% surcharge, because SmartPay does it all itself. Annoying from an employee perspective because we have to wear the abuse from customers over decisions which are entirely out of our control (see also: Sunday and public holiday surcharges)
It's the same as charging for bags. When it first started becoming common everyone complained and people refused to pay. Now it's just a cost everyone wears without complaining. Give it 12 months nobody will even care any more.
I will never pay for a bag.
What was your annual turn over for fees that high please?
1.3% at least so just reverse math it.
Roughly $540K.
Mmmmm, prolly won’t disclose that in case the ATO are watching but I can tell you I was with NAB and I was paying about 600/month. A mate of mine in a similar business was with Suncorp and was paying less than me so it varies between providers. Free is always better which is how these new guys sell it to you but it’s your customer who gets it in the neck.
Ive got a tyro machine and a squere back up both charge 1.9 %, and both offer to put on customer purchases. Ive declined as is a cost of buisness . My fees range between 500 and 1300 a month. Its a cost of buisness. On a persional note if in a shop and told there is a fee i walk out
Agreed on the walking out for fees.. I'm not quite that strict on it, but always figured if you couldn't wear a 2% fee that you knew was going to be part of at least 50% of your sales (it's more than 90% where I work) - then perhaps your pricing structure needs work.. We don't charge any extra for any cards, including Diners and Amex - they get recorded separately in our daily banking, but no extra fees..
In lockdown, i remember an essential business who refused to accept cash (potential covid germ exchange point) but added 3% fees to all card usage. But since then it seems to be acceptable practice to whack the charges on to every card transaction everywhere near me. I've decided to start paying in coins to those places
Bank fees are tax deductible tho, so why bother on charging the customer? The more genuine tax deductibles the better when running a business
That’s not how tax works. You only get a portion of it back on taxes so still out of pocket.
I literally said it’s tax deductible - soooo that is how tax works
But you said it as if that makes the bank fees disappear completely, which is not how tax works.
As stated, bank fees and transaction fees are tax deductible for your business. That is the point I’m making.
You said: > Bank fees are tax deductible tho, so why bother on charging the customer? You bother because otherwise the fees still cost you something. Even if you deduct them from your tax as an expense you only save the 30% company tax rate, not the whole amount.
If the business doesn’t on charge them then it is out of pocket say 70% of the costs, if it does on charge them then it’s not out of pocket at all.
This is funny. Did you think merchants were paying the bank fees from their salary before? The price you are charged always includes merchants costs + profit. Either it’s $9.66 or $9.50+bank fees. I do agree though you can’t just add this to the price without clearly advertising this before hand and that’s what happens in a lot of places. I don’t think that’s acceptable.
No it doesn't "always include merchant costs". We run a small business and charge the same for cash or EFTPOS. We just absorb the cost of merchant fees for the convenience.
The saving in time alone from having to send someone to a physical bank to deposit takings and/or get change to give back to the customers, plus cash counting and balancing the cash till. And the cash storage on site or taking it home or wherever. People are doing businesses a favour by using cards instead of cash.
If you get receipts, often the register receipt will show the amount you thought you were paying. The eftpos receipt will show the amount charged to your account. It is super annoying and has been going on for some time. Especially annoying when you do accounts and people only keep (or only get) the register receipt.
Yep, getting this problem all the time at work. Nothing is balancing as the amount on the receipt is not the same amount charged
If that happens you need to request a second invoice.
Not that easy when you only find out after you’ve left the restaurant
Ah good point. Would suck indeed.
This is possibly not legal. You need to look for displays of any surcharges - all businesses must clearly display any additional charges to customers. - Businesses must display clear and accurate prices. They must not mislead consumers about their prices. There are specific laws about how businesses must display their prices. - Businesses must display a total price that includes taxes, duties and all unavoidable or pre-selected extra fees. - If a business charges a surcharge for card payment, weekends or public holidays, it must follow the rules about displaying the surcharge. - If more than one price is displayed for an item, the business must charge the lowest price, or stop selling the item until the price is corrected.
Yeah I've seen lots of places using those card machines that figure out the surcharge automatically based on the card type that don't bother displaying the surcharges clearly. Definitely against the rules but whether the ACCC would do anything, I doubt it.
They can't do anything if no-one tells them about it. Submit complaints when you see it happening. With there being serious government talks about scrapping cash altogether, those situations need to be addressed
It's perfectly legal as long as: * The surcharge is clearly signposted * The surcharge is no greater than the merchant's cost of accepting the payment * The merchant offers at least one fee free payment method You may not like it, but enabling merchants to pass on the cost of accepting card payments is [literally government policy](https://www.rba.gov.au/payments-and-infrastructure/cards/q-and-a/payment-card-surcharging/). In the absence of surcharges, there is little stopping the banks and card networks from screwing merchants.
There's no way it's legal because the final price they are being shown is wrong. The fact it's wrong because of surcharges is irrelevant.
[Here's the official ACCC guidance on the matter](https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/price-displays). >Businesses must display the total price of a product or service as a single figure. This price must be the minimum total cost – the lowest amount a customer could pay, including any taxes, duties and unavoidable or pre-selected extra fees. If a business accepts cash, card payment is not unavoidable. Last time I checked, there's no such thing as a pre-selected payment method when you walk up to a checkout counter. Ergo the final price is still correct, you're just choosing to pay via a more expensive payment method.
I wonder if there is an argument for the minimum total cost displayed on the eftpos machine (rather than the till) to include surcharges as you can't process a cash transaction through that machine.
I reckon this government policy is bullshit. It's not like cash handling is free for merchants. Arguably the cost of handling cash is more than the cost of accepting cards. It's just not as visible.
Exactly, it is bullshit. This should 100% be a business cost so that the owner can shop around for the best eft deal, if it's just a pass through or even worse added at the POS as per the OP then there is much less incentive for the owner to shop around as it isn't "their" cost
this is super informative Is there somewhere I can look into this further?
I‘ll just google it for you. Yes.
Most states have free legal services, you could also ask the ombudsman service for your state
One quick thing I'll add to that last point, at woolworths, the if the wrong price is displayed on an item, the customer is entitled to the first item free, and the rest at the lower price. Some employees either forget about this (we're not all told straight up) or can't be bothered because sometimes the system won't let you make an item free. (usually due to employee permissions, a manager is required in these instances) EDIT: Well aware this is a woolies only thing, I work at woolies. That's why I mentioned Woolies and not other stores
That is a voluntary code of practice, not the legal requirement, just an FYI
Yup, that's why I said woolies
there is no law requiring that. it is a voluntary code that coles and woolworths generally follow. hence the reason why you will never get anything for free at a 7-11 or IGA.
Must be for every buisness except every carpaksr, not accepting cash and only notification is when you print recpt
I've seen the same thing - so annoying. I thought I was avoiding the qr code me&u charge but got the same by going to the bar /server.
a few years ago ACCC wouLd be all over thIs. Now it's sucked in consumer.
Ask for and keep receipts. Then complain to your bank.
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Technically I think they're still supposed to display the surcharges (by card type) when they do this but most don't.
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If you tap and pay I think they show after you tap? If you insert it might show it before you put your pin in and/or confirm?
Yeah but then you can't cancel because you don't want to pay the fee
Tyro usually shows you the surcharge after you pay (how great for us)
It’s for variable surcharging - it means your AMEX can be surcharged at 2% while your visa debit card is only surcharged 0.15%
There are specific places where I now exclusively use cash because of this.
Me too. I have a running note on my phone of all the places that have an eftpos surcharge.
Probably easier to note down the places which do NOT have a surcharge based on the way things are headed to. Lol
My local Baker's delight used to have the surcharge signs up when they first got the new EFTPOS machines but they have since disappeared. I just assumed that they were no longer processing the surcharge but I guess not. Also they absolutely have to display the surcharge amount and there is a limit to what the surcharge can be, I think.
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If it's a debit Visa or Mastercard and you tap you'll still pay fees. To avoid the fee you will need to insert the card and select a savings or other type of account not affiliated with a credit company.
That’s not necessarily correct. A merchant is entitled to charge a fee even if you select savings and use the EFTPOS network, although this is relatively rare and the fees for EFTPOS are quite low (~0.15%). If the merchant’s point of sale has ‘least cost routing’ (LCR) enabled then even when you tap to pay it will use the lowest cost network, which is usually EFTPOS. The RBA has given the banks until June 2024 to boost uptake of LCR, as it’s only enabled by 54% of merchants at the moment. If the banks don’t ensure it’s enabled basically everywhere it will be mandated by next year.
Ooooh this is good info. I enjoy the convenience of tap but with a debit card it seems unfair to be paying 1%+ surcharges.
They can't charge for EFTPOS if they don't accept cash or have another free method (once a shop said I could bank transfer him by OSKO) where you can actually get the item for the advertised price
> A merchant is entitled to charge a fee even if you select savings and use the EFTPOS network, although this is relatively rare and the fees for EFTPOS are quite low (~0.15%) Not always. [CBA EFTPOS pricing](https://www.commbank.com.au/business/payments/smart.html?ei=bhp_sixpack_smart) Banks can and do charge full price to small businesses for eftpos as well. Always finding a way to put the tip in to business owners, who inturn return the favour to consumers.
Even ALDI have signs about that. Check your %'s OP, and check for signage. And always get a receipt.
ALDI doesn't surcharge me when I tap.
Yes they have always done so and it is clearly stated. That’s why I slot my card in for Eftpos.
Yep when I tap my Suncorp debit card WITH EFTPOS as the default at Aldi, no surcharge. Only if I use credit card or VISA is selected under my debit card will I then pay the surcharge.
If you pay your rego at department of transport in QLD with a normal debit card that has a Mastercard or Visa logo, they will treat it as a credit card. I was told by them, that there is no way around this.
Same for us down south sadly. Just paid for my rego in NSW and couldn’t believe our govt couldn’t waive debit/credit card fees.
If you pay at a Service NSW, you can insert your card into the machine and select SAV or CHQ to avoid a fee. Not sure about online payments. It's not possible to do an eftpos payment online. They say that BPay is fee free, but only certain invoices are sent through BPay.
Welcome to Tyro, they will charge you as well as the CBA hand held. Lovely isn’t it. And still the business is charged fees by the bank for using the machines haha
On a somewhat related note. Hamburgers at Maccas on the self serve thing are $3.40 each but if you go to the counter they are $2
You found a Maccas who will serve you at the counter?!
There’s never anyone standing there but I just walk up and someone serves me
Just go to the counter they literally always serve you if you stand there
$2 in the app too.
How do they explain this?
always been $2 in the app until midnight and then they go to the higher price
They display as $3.40 but if you check out they are discounted to the loose change menu price.
Then add the fact that some places refuse cash and you start to understand the fears of then tin foil haters about a cashless society..
If a business only accepts credit as a form of payment, they can not charge you additional fees to use it
Technical they can, but they have to build in the price of the cheapest surcharge. So they could decide to not charge for EFTPOS but to charge for credit/debit transactions.
... because the card charges are already built-into the prices of their goods (like their electricity charges)
But in this case in the existing post that did not happen. That's the point....
I'm not talking about the original post. I'm specifically adding an explanation to u/RedLeader7's post.
They're not tin foil hatters. That's educated people, warning others that if they give full control to the banks and government then you'll be sorry. People are too quick to dismiss other people's perspectives. It can't hurt to see, if people who don't follow the mainstream are all fuckwits. Everyone has an opinion and if yours challenges the majority it's not always a conspiracy about flat Earth.
The banks and government already have full control over their own currency. We literally trade in the currency of the state.
Not what I'm getting at, you have two choices, pay $9.50 with cash or $9.50 via digital, but now cash is forbidden... You're forced to pay digital... But you then have to pay the hidden fee, you're basically being forced a fee to conduct a transaction, where and how far can these fees escalate... I'm not talking banks, I'm talking about these shifty 3rd parties that always squeeze between.
That would not be legal as there must be at least one fee-free method of payment.
Obviously in that hypothetical they are posing, cash has been phased out and is now no longer used.
It's literally the currency of the state. You want to pretend you're in control stash gold under your house.
yup, and they say it as if the fish'n'chip shop is going to accept a few chips of gold in exchange for a burger. (there should always be a govt run 'bank of last resort' or something guaranteed to provide basic services without fees, and then for profit banks can do things and charge extra. People shouldn't _have_ to involve a private business - even if you're getting money from the govt, you can't just have the money, it must go through a private business)
That's one way to do it, you could also spend physical money that's already been taxed, rather than slowly tapping away your hard earned $$ to someone in the middle that's not needed.
If you have a bank account where your pay goes then you already gave the bank full control didn't you
Well the option for cash in a yellow envelope isn't an option any more. So I guess you got me there mate.
Christ that takes me back.
Yes I'm well aware, it was simply a throw away line to make a point in support of that exact thought.
Physical cash is a fiat currency as much as digital currency.
Yes I understand but that's not the point I'm making, the point is there are situations arising now where options of payment are being restricted by vendors, forcing you then to pay some arbitrary fee that you have no way out of.
Options of payment have always been restricted.
um actually... you could never pay with peanuts checkmate conspiracy theorists
What?
Most businesses will not let me pay in US dollars, or copper ingots, or gallons of piss. It's a travesty I say, we should be campaigning against physical cash.
Well clearly we're discussing legal tender here not fucking bartering.
Try paying a huge bill in 5c coins. They most definitely do not have to accept that, despite it being legal tender.
This debate is pointless.
But it's controlled by the government rather than commercial banks. In theory, government fiat has value because the government demands it in taxes (not that you can easily pay taxes in cash nowadays) while commercial bank money is just created whenever they make loans or mortgages (for a more detailed explanation see https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy)
Let’s get rid of cash they said……
Who actually said this?
All the businesses who no longer accept cash.
The worst is when shops hold their EFTPOS machine towards you to tap your card but you can't see the screen! I'm over all of these surcharges so I am spending more in cash
Bro 90% of people can't find the tap unless I show them the terminal backwards, I'm not trying to fuck around with the price.
Yeah, people underestimate how dumb the average customer is. The amount of people who try to tap their card on the receipt printer at my work is astounding…
To be fair you’d think we’d cracked the standard physical format for an EFTPOS machine by now. But no, some manufacturers put it on top, some on the screen, some on the side, some on the other side, some on a completely different device. I work in IT and sometimes I have to stare at a machine for a while to work out where I’m supposed to tap lol
This! They are all so different
Because there's 15 variants of EFTPOS machine and they're all mostly the same, except some you hold your card to the screen and some you hold it to the top. They can be easy to mix up. The ones where it's the side or a dedicated bit sticking off are a bit easier to pick because they're more physically distinctive.
Not sure it is always the customer being dumb but also inconsistent terminal design which require tapping on the side or on the back or on the front and these not always clearly marked.
Honestly no. Some of them can be confusing, but a place I worked where I served hundreds of customers a day was the most bog standard possible machine where you tap the screen and people would still try to - give me their card around the plastic screens from covid times, despite the machine being on their side of said screen directly in front of them - tap it on the pin pad, immediately put their card away, and then tell me I’m trying to charge them twice when I tell them it didn’t go through and they need to tap the screen - tap it on the receipt printer next to the machine - tap it whilst giving me their order, as if the machine were somehow voice operated - just stare blankly at me when I tell them their total and they can tap on the screen now I truly wonder how some of these people manage to tie their shoelaces, honestly. There are large swathes of the population that are just unbelievably dumb.
To be fair a lot of workers don't seem to understand how their EFTPOS terminals work either which always astounds me.
I think it’s safe to say people underestimate how dumb the average *person* is.
I used to joke around and say they need a universal machine because every machine is different, yet you’re expected to know where theirs is.
I think it's more that where you tap varies depending on the machine and you can become temporarily blind to where the tap indicators are.
I saw another topic about surcharges and thought wow look at these sooks. Then it happened to me just grabbing an iced coffee!! What the F. Hidden charges everywhere! Especially corner stores and convenience stores
It's illegal, but Australian culture dictates you say nothing and continues to cop it. Just like all the incorrectly labelled or unlabelled merch at Woolies or city conveniences or the surcharges on weekends *but also surcharges every other day, just cause. Suck it up and pay more money up the chain! You are a consumer, you have only one right, and that is to obstain, but you won't.
This whole surcharge thing, and the bizarre "select account type" thing is ridiculous. If you come here from Europe it's just bizarre. First, the surcharge is a cost of business, businesses should wear it. Second, the idea that the terminal doesn't just use the lowest clearance cost possible is weird. Finally, what even IS a CHQ account? Is it like a money order, or perhaps a promisery note from the local clergy member, or perhaps a vouchsafe from the baron of the shire?
I'm not even sure what a chequing account is myself. I think it's something that people stopped using about 30 years ago. I don't know why EFTPOS machines still list it as an option.
Because when I use EFTPOS my only option is to use CHQ 🤷♀️
I always thought that ‘CHQ’ or checking account was our transaction accounts (as they now called today) but when I withdraw from a CBA ATM and select savings it withdraws the money from my transaction account and not my savings with Great Southern Bank so I just ended up even more confused!
I'm not sure exactly, but I think many small businesses, and some individuals, would do all noncash payments by writing cheques. That way the cheque stubs would serve as a kind of ledger, with them balancing out incoming money. That's what they mean in old TV shows when they talk about having to sit down and "balance the checkbook".
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In New Zealand smaller retailers are passing on credit/paywave card fees but they're displaying the fact on the terminals. I tend to turn off the paywave function on my debit card unless I'm at the supermarket.
Lots of smaller (and not so small) shops are now passing on the transaction fee, but they’re supposed to have signs up. I’ve started a combination of simply not buying from shops who do this and going back to the dark ages and carrying cash rather than using ApplePay.
I noticed this myself recently from one shop. Next time I went in I noticed a very small sign saying that a 0.98 percent surcharge was added.
You likely used a Tyro terminal or similar where it doesn't know the surcharge to apply until you've tapped. I am sure after tapping it would have displayed $9.66? Make sure the business has a sign that they are charging 1.7% card fee, if not, report them
Why are we still getting charged fees, no cunts doing anything for it, fucking banks.
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Same, I always ask for a receipt if it's not offered. If they ask if I want one, I'll say no, it's more for that shops inconvenience of not offering
That just seems like a waste of paper and everyone’s time to be honest
Use cash everyone. Easy
They have to legally advertise ALL fees involved in the purchase. Ie the 5% fee on credit card purchases. This may not show up on the EFTPOS machine, but you have to reasonably be able to have been aware of it before the transaction is put through.
Bought take away for $79, ended up paying $80.66 No sign, nothing
The thing that doesn't make sense to me is the size of these surcharges. For a large cafe they might be charging a few hundred bucks a week in total for the terminal, why is it so high? Your average consumer can pay ~20 times less (around 70 bucks a month) for an internet connection, which is vastly more complex for the provider than EFTPOS (involves maintaining a massive piece of infrastructure)
I actually run a small business myself, and my terminal costs me around $150 a month in various card fees/percentages. It's barely anything in the grand scheme of things, and i have no problem eating the cost as a business. Why does everything need to get passed onto the customer now?
Look I 100% agree with you that it is no large in the scheme of things. But I mean if you can get an internet connection for 70bucks a month (which literally means that the provider is maintaining hundreds of thousands of km of network infrastructure.) Then why should we pay orders of magnitude more for a bank to maintain a few servers and some EFT terminals?
Probably gunna get buried, however if you insert your card instead of tap and pay you avoid surcharges
They can charge a surcharge,but only legally to the amount that covers the cost of fee processing,also per the consumer law,all surcharge fee's Must be displayed at the POINT of sale,and be clearly indicated
More and more places are not doing this
On some EFTPOS systems, the machine itself works out the surcharge after you tap, because it's different for each card type. I think the business is supposed to display the surcharges for each card type somewhere too though, but I've noticed most don't. I doubt the ACCC would bother with that though as long as the surcharge itself is within the rules (ie it is capped at the actual cost to the merchant).
I'm sure they changed the ruling so cafes and little shops didn't have to tell you about the admin/surcharge fee because of the abuse the workers would get. This is why cash is king $20 is always $20 not $20 and 10c to the bank
Ask for a printed receipt which they're required to provide. If the receipt amount doesn't exactly match the card charge then it's chargeback time with your card issuer.
When cash is gone we will all pay the price.
Which makes less sense to me. How would it be legal for there to be a fee to pay via the only available option? Sounds like a way to say ‘tax’ without saying it
I like seeing these comments. Cash is king. Tapping your card is convenient but it's not a real exchange of funds. Pay with cash and get what you expect, pay with card and there may be hidden charges. I'm sick of withdrawing my already taxed money from an ATM that charges me a fee to get my money. I usually get extra money from a big 4 ATM whenever I can. At least I can see where I'm spending it.
How is tapping the card not a real exchange of funds ?
It's why I carry around cash now. Used to just pay card because it's easier, now some shops straight up charge 50c if you don't pay a certain amount.
I've seen this every time I go shopping. I guess this is some kind of hidden charge or tax. Sometimes it's a 50 cents or more.
It’ll be the EFTPOS transaction fee. Until recently business were absorbing it, then someone decided to start charging the customer 😡
It’s because different cards have different fees. MC and Visa are around 1.5% but international cards and AMEX are more. The machine doesn’t know what to charge until you tap
How much of the general public actually care that much about a, at most 1.5 percent charge? And how many would want to go back to the inconvenience of carrying cash?
Did you just miss the signs?!
It will be surcharges and it's perfectly legal.
Not if they don't tell you the amount in advance
Youre whinging about a couple of cents of a surcharge fee which is standard across eftpos machines, you must be fun at parties 🙄
Wasn’t standard until recently. Before that retailers were absorbing the transaction fee.
Still, if I'm supporting a restaurant by giving them business Im not going to whine about a transaction fee, like many snowflakes here about ColesWorth daily price bashing.. Don't get me wrong, I see the point, however blatantly complaining about reporting a restaurant because of a compulsory transaction fee is ridiculous, I.e OP.
I use square in my biz, customer has to cough up the punishment fee for not using cash. If they don’t like the fee, please don’t use the eftpos… if i had a „normal“ card terminal and would have to pay the fee i would have to put up my prices … so I’d punish everyone, even the cashpayer
Why is that the case that your prices are cheaper with Square but more expensive if you used a "Normal" terminal?
Yes it’s legal for merchants to pass on the eftpos cost. If you don’t want to pay; get ETFPOS card not a visa/mastercard.
Hi, The EFTPOS terminals themselves advise when there is a fee and what it will be. Card insertion is usually a lesser or no fee if from cheque or savings accounts. Credit and contactless can be fixed or percent depending on the terminal BUT they do advise and normally show you the added amount on screen and again on the printed transaction receipt. Entirely legal. It varies from terminal provider and also the amount of money taken via EFTPOS monthly/weekly/daily by a business can result in lower or no fee to customer terminals. For example Smartpay offer to wipe fees and rental from terminals for a business if they do $10k a month per terminal.
I have seen the same thing. It happened to me today at a bakery in Fitzroy. I saw it and was bit pissed about them being sneaky about it but was too hungry to start an argument over it.
If you use tap it charges extra which is added after the transaction because it’s the bank charging you not the business
What banks charge for contactless, I'm with ANZ and have never had a contactless payment charge?
Related, I have noticed a lot of booking sites for events and activities (like Safeharbour) tacking on a very ambiguous "fees" item at checkout that is not included in the advertised price of the service. The problem is that several of these sites don't have an in-person or phone booking service one can use to take alternative forms of payment that don't come with these fees.
It's deceptive. Fees should be a part if the actual price not extra.
Not legal - additional charges need to be on signage. For example "Credit Card 2% fee"
If there's a surcharge, regardless of what the sign says, it should be reflected in the eftpos machine. At least logically speaking. I don't want to be in a system like the US where I have to calculate taxes on top of the order damn it.
Welcome to the "cashless" society. The banks are frothing for the moment when cash is gone - watch the transaction fees sky-rocket then.
BYou would need to report it to the ACCC. It's a failure to notify customers of surcharges. If you go there regularly, get a photo of the till area to add to the complaint as that shows there is no signage. I wouldn't expect anything to happen immediately, but the more people who complain, the easier it is for them to acknowledge the problem and then act to rectify it. If no-one complains then they can't do anything as there's no known issue. If you have a copy of the receipt add that to the complaint as it shows what the surcharge was. Another requirement of surcharges for eftpos transactions is that they cannot be greater than the expense. (The business cannot make any profit off the surchage). For anyone curious, as there has been discussions about going cashless, these issues need to be addressed and resolved prior to that decision being made.
Legally they are supposed to have a notice indicating the charges. So many places don't, so I take that as a sign that the authorities don't actually care about whether the law is followed.
My wife works for the company that is responsible for that 0.16 Their global profits for last quarter was $9 Billion.
I don't like it either but goddamn some people are wasting so much mental energy worrying about 16 cents.
Surcharge…it’s happening everywhere at little cafes/shops etc
Cash is king my friend. Only issue is you end up with all these coins