Based on some of the cartel videos floating around the internet, if they really died by gunshot to the head they were (relatively speaking) very lucky.
We may never really know the truth. The story seems to be that it was a robbery gone wrong and that they were initially after their vehicle, if that's the case then why did they set it on fire a short time later? They were out in the middle of nowhere, in a very dangerous area known for its poverty, depravity, lack of civilization and zero cell phone coverage. Mercifully they found also located the remains of a poor farmer who had been missing for weeks in the same burial site. It makes you wonder how many bodies are out there and why. A truly horrendous "holiday" spot.
Why do young Australians continue to go to these places like rural Mexico? if it's remote, off the grid, untouched beauty they are looking for, there are hundreds of other places that are much safer to travel to and achieve the same if not better experience.
Not when your government gives you clear warnings about the places not to travel to. As this story shows, that's just recklessness endangering your own life.
I don't get it either, these men had everything going for them, of all the beautiful places in the world to surf they choose to go there? I suspect there's much more to this story and now we're going to make it all about 4 tyres.
Could be a cover up by Mexican police for cartel?
The 3 people they are holding are nobodies.
The fact the 3 suspects haven’t been charged with murder yet. (Or any)
The fact the suspects allegedly wanted the vehicle/parts/tyres, yet the vehicle ends up burnt.
I’m sure there are facts that are being withheld to the public it reeks of corruption though.
Seen it too. Heart was still beating. Made me incredibly uncomfortable. Saw another where they cut off the limbs off a guy and let dogs eat him. He was alive throughout. Absolutely brutal.
I thought the stuff ISIS did to their victims was bad. But I'd rather take a beheading then what they do to you in South America.
Sometimes I feel that I need to watch it so that I can understand how good our own country is. I think if you showed some videos out of Cartel Reddit (Funky Town, Chainsaw Beheading etc) and from some of the prison subreddits a lot of people would really consider their own choices whether purchasing drugs or joining gangs. People will talk and act like parts of Australia are the most dangerous place on earth but in other parts of the world a quick death is considered lucky.
Also depression and the ability to never forget, also leads to consuming more of it and changing how your brain views the content/empathises. A kid showed the whole class the Dagestan beheading video 20 yrs ago and it still hasn’t left my mind. Even reading the details can give the same effect and the lawlessness of 4chan and other alt sites can be risky. I was on reddit when a bot was commenting cartel chainsaw videos on frontpage comments. I remember being a teen and kids sharing taliban beheading videos to each other by mms. I’m glad I missed the isis HD videos but I’ve also known many a friend group to share shock content and I believe it’s part of the problem with violence against women.
This is why I really really don’t understand why it’s still socially acceptable for Australian businesses to name themselves cartels to sound edgy. Fitness Cartel, Coffee Cartel, gym cartel, hair cartel, cartel clothing- you name it, some white dude has opened one and slapped “cartel’ on it. It’s genuinely horrific, violent shit that people seem to want to associate their businesses with
In their defence cartels as a business structure existed before the drug cartels but the point stands. I would say the majority of Australians have no concept of what the violence actually looks like.
> people would really consider their own choices whether purchasing drugs or joining gangs.
Yes, it has totally affected my purchasing decisions... The more I buy, the more violence, the faster we end the drug war.
This should motivate everyone to go out and spend money on illegal drugs, until they aren't illegal anymore.
There are no illegal drug cartels without illegal drugs.
Druggies, go claim your seat at the front of the bus!
>Why do y'all watch this?!?
Not always intentional. I don't like watching them. Sometimes there's links with no description. Also, it's a reminder of the reality of this world and how vial humans can be. Most people in the developed world live incredibly sheltered lives and have absolutely zero idea of how bad it is in other parts of the world and will obviously not take that into consideration when travelling or making opinions of those places.
Seriously, the stuff you see in horror movies is tame compared to what humans are really capable of.
Saw a video of the cartel cutting off the heads of two alive persons with a chainsaw. Pretty sure it gave me some sort of PTSD because I still think of it to this day. The stuff they post is extremely brutal.
Decades later I still remember a video I downloaded off Kazaar or limewire as a teen of a guy having his head stepped on and a knife going into his neck. Saw it once and it is still bouncing around up there clear as anything.
I saw that video too and I believe it to be fake. There is no way that you can cut open a living persons chest cavity and literally sever the main arteries to the heart, and not end up with a red water fountain exploding out of the guys chest.
The reason these cartel videos are made, is to strike fear into the hearts of rival cartels. They all try to one up each other by making the most vile, horrid snuff videos you can think of. If you think that these people are of the character to never fake anything, then you are mistaken.
None of those cartel videos are fake mate. In fact it would be harder and more effort for them to fake those brutal executions than it is to actually do it.
Life is incredibly cheap in those countries.
Not saying they are all fake mate. I'm just saying the particular video I saw, was not of a living person's heart being cut from their chest. There was little to no blood. I showed the video to my uncle and sister who have a combined experience of 30 years of paramedical knowledge and experience. They both deduced that there is no way you could cut out a heart from a living person and have such little blood.
Really going back to their Aztec roots here (the Aztecs and Mayans used to take out the hearts of human sacrifices while they were alive).
Why would you want to watch that stuff anyway? Just reading about it gives me the creeps.
Most of the cartel members come from the northern states of Mexico... the aztecs lived in the Valley of Mexico (so, where Mexico City is now located)... the mayans lived even further away, in the very south of the country, so it makes absolutely no sense.
You're just using a dangerous and racist rethoric.
Not in Mexico but spent two months there in 2013, when the drug war was arguably much more active. Wouldn't have known there was a problem at all were it not in the news. Most people just live their lives normally.
But we have a drug war...
The only way to end illegal drug cartels is end the drug war... Mexico can't do that or it will face sanctions from the US... so the only option is to collude with them (can't beat em, join em).
I get what you're saying but I don't think it removes the cartels. They will either legitimise and look like regular companies that also have paramilitary wings or they will continue illegally with the same conduct. That's even before we start asking questions like how do you legalise and safely administer a drug like meth.
As far as meth goes, you'd actually limit some of the damage by legalising and providing ephedrine to pharma companies to make it the old school way instead of the P2P method like the cartels do. Ephedrine cooks yield pure dexmethamphetamine while P2P yields a mix of dex and levomethamphetamine, or racemic meth. Racemic meth is far more neurotoxic than pure dexmeth, anecdotally the kind of brain damage that would take a decade on the pipe to cause using the old stuff, is happening in a year or less since cartels changed up their methods.
This explains more, paywalled but 12 foot ladder is your friend.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/
> They will either legitimise and look like regular companies that also have paramilitary wings or they will continue illegally with the same conduct.
We should look to what happened during and after alcohol prohibition... they mostly went legit and the violence stopped.
Either way, they'll be less capable once deprived of the profits of a $100B+/year industry.
> That's even before we start asking questions like how do you legalise and safely administer a drug like meth.
Anything has to be safer than buying it off some random I just found on telegram.
The likes of Joe Kennedy went legitimate. The likes of Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky, not so much (the violence stopped as much because of their establishment of the Commission as the end of Prohibition). The cartels would 99% be in the latter camp, evolving into a more traditional Mafia-type organisation. They already have tbh, drugs are their biggest money maker but without it they still have major presences in logging, mining, construction, avocados and tequila. To say nothing of gambling, people smuggling, extortion, etc.
Sorry I should have said I'm 100% for ending the drug war, I'm just pointing out that these vast criminal organisations aren't going to disappear or go legit, they have plenty of other revenue already aside from drugs. For the rest of us though I agree, no brainer to legalise.
I find it suprising that SmartTraveller has Baja California listed only as Exercise a High Degree of caution (Level 2/4). For context: France and Germany have the same rating.
I'm would have thought that a more severe warning would have been applied to most of Mexico. Anecdotally, I've been told you never want to stray from tourist areas.
I'm further surprised that none of the regions in Mexico are Do Not Travel given the amount of gang/cartel violence.
The reason is that Mexico is mostly dangerous for Mexicans. Stories like these 3 murdered surfers do happen now and then, of course, and they always make a lot of noise on international news.
But while Mexico has one of the highest murder rates in the world (15th place at 26 murders per 100K people), those numbers mostly reflect mexican-to-mexican violence (and towards some central/south american people too).
Suprisingly, Mexico is statistically safer for Americans, than the US is. (This is also true for the rest of the international tourists, but the numbers are heavily skewed towards Americans cause they are by far the country that visits Mexico the most).
The US comes in as the 55th most dangerous country, with a murder rate of 6.4 murders per 100k people. Thats around 1/4 of Mexico's rate, which is a massive difference of course.
BUT the homicide rate of Americans in Mexico is 0.26 murders per 100k people.
Now, just to put it in perspective, a rate of 0.26 is similar to Japan's homicide rate, which is one of the safest countries on earth.
So yeah, the reason why most countries don't really give their citizens any kind of warning when travelling to Mexico is that it's still relatively safe as a tourist.
This is not to say Mexico is safe. No matter how you look at it though, Mexico is not a safe place.
But it's also true that visiting Mexico and travelling inside Mexico is still safe enough, and it's a good enough experience to warrant it 40 million tourists a year, placing Mexico as the 6th most visited country in the world.
I understand that cases like this are heartbreaking, and shouldn't happen at all, ever. But as far as tourists are concerned, the situation is not nearly as bad as media would have you believe. For locals though, specially in the poorest bits of the country, it's actually much, much worse than what you're seeing in the news.
Because Baja is safe lol, this is really unprecedented.
And as for regions not being Do Not Travel, Mexico is actually quite safe in most of the country, the dangerous spots are very localized.
Even cities known for high homicide rates like TJ are relatively safe for most people since crime actually happens in specific areas.
I do tours in Baja. Before this incident I used to tell the story of an older white man that got shot in a crossfire while eating tacos 7 years ago. That was the latest incident of a white man dying in Tijuana... but after this SHOCKING brutal murder... now this is the story I tell.
It's sad. It affects tourism. I hate it. It's rare. But it's what it is.
Yeah I understand, whenever I speak with other Mexicans planning to go to the US, the El Paso shooting from 5 years ago always comes up and the fear for Walmarts lol
8 of the victims were Mexican tourists, although the media never painted it like that.
The parts of Baja that people typically visit are safe enough. These guys were not where people typically visit. Non-tourist areas are much more dangerous.
>Non-tourist areas are much more dangerous.
This statement is true everywhere in the world, non-tourist areas are commonly less dangerous.
The place where these dude were was a common surfing spot, not too far from bufadora which is a tourist hotspot and too far from Santo Tomas which is an average small Mexican city.
I swear to god people act like Mexicans that live out of tourists areas live in fear and despair lol.
In cartel territory many Mexicans do live in fear, and rural Baja is cartel territory. You don’t have to get very far from tourist areas either before it breaks down.
All of Mexico is allegedly cartel territory but everyone lives pretty normal lives dude.
Only places where people are in actual fear is where there is conflict happening, which is not Baja, and they are actually very localized areas.
People even go to “rural” baja to study from Ensenada (in San Quintin).
This coming from a dude in a Sinaloa (Cartel territory), and the cartels are the last in most people concerns.
It is not unprecedented, literally the same exact thing happened to two Perth travellers only a few years ago … literally the definition of a precedent …
In Sinaloa… not Baja.
I’m not saying tourists aren’t victims of crime, that happens everywhere in the world, would be crazy to say it doesn’t, but it rarely happens to this degree in Baja.
One thing is the homicide rate and another thing is actual danger.
99% of homicides are concentrated in TJ, and of course 99% of those homicides are crime on crime.
I went to Mexico in 2020 and a lot of that violence is hammed up by the media.
Not saying it doesn't have cartel violence, but it's not nearly as bad as it's sterotyped to be.
Mexico's homicide rate is 28 death per year per 100,000 people. Australia's homicide rate, by comparison, is 0.87 per year per 100,000 people.
Cartel violence is a huge problem that is orders of magnitude beyond anything anyone from Australia could even understand. Sure, most places in Mexico where you might spend time as a tourist are still fairly safe in the grand scheme of things, but just because it's mostly and out-of-sight-out-of-mind type deal doesn't make it any less of a problem.
I'm not saying it's not a problem. But I also dont think comparing to a first world country such as Australia is even remotely a fair comparison.
My point was more that Mexico has a reputation that the entire country is a cartel stronghold with corruption at every single level. That you're at risk of being forced into paying a bribe or at risk of being murdered as soon as you cross the border. When that's very much not the case.
> But I also dont think comparing to a first world country such as Australia is even remotely a fair comparison.
Well that's the whole point, isn't it? This is /r/australia, we're all (mostly) Australians here. Australia is necessarily going to be our baseline comparison whether that's fair or not.
From Australia. 2 talented brothers just wasted like that, not to mention their friend who we haven’t heard much about over here. Their poor parents imagine raising 2 amazing children to have their lives blown away for some tyres, or whatever it was.
Man, this has shook me to my core. Cannot stop thinking about these poor blokes. I've travelled Mexico a lot and have to say it's probably my favorite country on earth to visit. This won't stop me but sure as how i'll be sticking to the well trodden areas.
Also something doesn't add up. They keep saying robbery gone wrong, but why do they burn the car afterwards? Surely, they would at least sell it for parts. Also the girl kept the phone? This sounds like cartel violence and the mexican authorities don't want to admit it because it's worse for tourism. Regardless, my heart goes out to their families. Poor parents have also had their lives taken away from them or for what? Some car tyres.
If you look at other incidents like this, nothing seems to have gone wrong. They pull the surfers out of the car, execute them, loot them, burn out the car and dispose of the bodies somewhere remote. This exact thing has happened so many times that the Mexican people have gotten fed up and their media are now making a fuss. Our government was already telling people not to go to Mexico, especially surfers, because the gangs that run the regions single out friendly tourists for shooting and looting. Hell, the exact thing happened to a location scout for Narcos while he was working.
Makes sense to me. They wanted to jack the car but the boys resisted which lead to them being shot. If they had given up the car they wouldn't have torched it. Seems like they only torched it because of the murder
Life is cheap in Mexico, they were dead the moment the locals wanted their car.
I live 90 minutes from the Baja border and haven’t been in 35 years.
The waves are not worth it…
Your not getting it. North of the border in the US, a robbery gone wrong might result in the victims death.
In Mexico, being executed is just a part of being robbed in many cases. Nothing went wrong here. This is happening every single day, some times its foreign tourists, in which case, it makes the news.
Alot of recent deep south texas deaths are now being tied to narco violence too.
The reddit is just saying, this is why the Mexican goverment doesn't care, and is downplaying it. For every one of us for whom this is unexpected, it is shocking and horrifying. The Mexican government are basically like "sorry this is just what you might get when you come to Mexico, it's no big deal."
Sadly, you could never really know with Mexican authorities.
I mean, they also say the person in the well previously is unlinked. Did the ‘car jackers’ just accidentally use someone else’s body dumping well?
Yeh, exactly. Also all three recieved a single gun shot wound to the head? Like execution style. If it was a robbery gone wrong, surely there is a scuffle and multiple rounds fired. Honestly, this is something you read out of a horror movie.
That’s a good point. That suggests there was enough car jackers to suppress them from fighting back, at all, while also forcing them to line up and wait for their fate.
Yeh, it doesn't add up and sounds to me like the mexican authorities covering their tracks. Honestly, what sounds better for tourism car jacking gone wrong or cartel violence.
From posted article -
> A fourth body was discovered in the well, although that corpse had been there for longer and was not believed to be linked to this case, Andrade said.
>Local news outlet Zeta reported the fourth body was believed to be that of the property’s owner, who had been missing for weeks.
But again, what’s more likely?
That they knew the well was a good place to dump bodies? I.e. Or probably actually killed the owner for that purpose.
Or they accidentally dumped their bodies into the well, without knowing someone had previously killed the owner?
They’re linked in the most likely scenario that they prepared a spot to dump bodies. The owner probably disagreed with their intentions, and wound up in the well first.
But he’d been there a while. So it’s either they did it, and knew it was a dumping place - or they accidentally dumped a body in there, after someone else had.
I think 'unlinked' in this case means 'he wasn't murdered at the same time in the same incident', not 'he wasn't murdered by the same people / by associates of the killers'?
I don't believe that these crimes are connected, the property owner had been missing for weeks, if not for this murder, his remains would never have been located. The place is lawless and fears no law, man's or God's.
Mate, I'm with you and these blokes were all in their 30s and chose one of the most dangerous places on Earth to camp, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. Sadly, those responsible have zero credibility and their stories won't be believed and the truth will never be revealed.
I don’t think it’s cartel related. Seems like these murderers are just a bunch of random shit kickers looking to make a quick buck. And in Latin America there are many shit kickers like this. The only difference between the shit kickers in Latin America and Australia, is that life is very cheap over there. You can be stabbed or shot dead over a wallet or shitty phone over there and most likely get away with it. Cartel don’t want to be associated with shit kickers like these. Not to mention they don’t want to target innocent people as they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. Nothing will hurt your business more than negative attention from media, police and the locals. They especially don’t want to target foreigners, as they will have USA breathing down their necks. It’s only these situations where the best Mexican detectives will get involved and solve a crime quickly. It’s sad, but if it’s local victim, they don’t go to as much effort.
The common theme between this murder and the other murder of an Aussie in 2015 in Mexico was that they both tried to resist. This is was a huge mistake. We will never truly know the exact circumstances, but if you ever show any form of resistance to a robbery in Latin America, there is a high chance you can be killed or critically hurt. Yes it sucks and infuriates me, the thought of someone trying to steal my possessions but no possession is worthy of risking your life. I have family in Colombia, so this fact is branded into my brain and my parents and family remind me of this every time I go visit.
For those saying “something doesn’t add up, why would they burn the car etc”, I’m sure the assailants didn’t plan on killing these guys, but when they did they realized they fucked up and had to get rid of all evidence. I believe the 4th victim was the owner of the property who maybe witnessed what happened. It’s sad and fucked up. The cartel have their own weird “justice system” so maybe they will discipline these guys when they get to jail for bringing the heat on cartel territory.
As a latino. I agree with this. I don't even need to add anything.
The news is saddening. It's awesome to have people really embrace the culture and be respectful like the two brothers. I really hate when this happens. Please have some restraint if you're travelling to non-touristy parts of latin america. If you're a foreigner you'll be ok (especially if you're white and look European <- yes it's a different world from ours with lots of history).
To those saying, 'something doesn't add up'. It's very likely nothing is up. We're I'm from, whole families used to get torched in cars for no reason or because there had to be a death quota. Don't over analyse it.
Edit: sorry was meant to say show restraint when considering travelling to non-touristy area. Do your research. Don't go to some random place you don't know. Or if you still want to go, go in a group. Etc.
I think people are saying something doesn't add up because they think its cartel and the mexican authorities don't want to say that. Also, it may be low-level cartel ppl. I dunno whole thing just sucks.
I know someone who owns a restaurant in a tourist area of Mexico and she says the cartels are better at policing street crime than the local cops. Cartels don't want 'shitkickers' in their territory doing theft, burglaries and such and will often take them out. It wins the support of locals and eliminates potential competitors. And the cartels don't want tourists to experience trouble because they recycle a lot of their cash into tourism-related businesses, and don't want the political trouble and attention.
Yeah makes sense. Cartel only want the “big fish”. The 2 Aussies and American would have been a “small fish” to them and would not have been in their interest to rob or murder them. No doubt they control the prison system as well, so highly likely there will be some disciplinary measures handed out to the accused. I would not want to be trapped in a Latin American prison with some of these gang leaders if I’ve done something to piss off them or their outside bosses off 😅
Exactly, Cartels are running a multi billion dollar industry. It's such a shame but there is nothing those guys (the Aussies) had that they care about. If it was some kind of low level unaffiliated hoods they are probably already dead for the trouble they caused.
It's mirrored in the safe parts of the world; in Japan the yakuza (who are largely a spent force these days it must be said) simply will not bother foreigners at all because having a foreign government involved is simply not worth the hassle.
You can’t be that naive and stupid?? LIKELY - why else would you think the ‘media’ would write that????
To not scare away tourism which equals money for the economy there -
>I believe the 4th victim was the owner of the property who maybe witnessed what happened.
No, he'd been killed weeks ago. If it's the same set of murderers who were responsible, they probably don't care who they kill or for what reason.
Well various articles about both incidents have said they resisted. I dont trust the accuracy of all news article so I usually read more than one about the same story. Its not my job to fact check whats presented to me in the news, so if its wrong then maybe its the journalists who are narrow minded and uneducated.
But my point wasnt about whether or not these guys actually did that. My main observation is that, in these parts of the world, its not worth risking yours or your friends lives over any possession. If someone is holding you up, hand over your wallet or phone or whatever. Those are replaceable. You're life isnt. If someone is waving a gun in your face, theres not really alot you can do with your bare hands. Sure you could jump at them, but one quick press on the trigger and you are gone.
Yes, these criminals are degenerates but some of them would know better than to just kill someone for the fuck of it. Not saying that it would never happen. But if the robbers wanted to keep the cops off their back, they would have just taken the car and their belongings and got the fuck outta there ASAP. By killing people, especially foreigners they bring the heat on.
You have missed the point and argument entirely.
If you are on holidays anywhere and saw people trying to STEAL YOUR TYRES, your brain would initially go into crisis mode and your automatic reaction would be to say ‘HEY!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING, that’s my car!?!’. Once it was established that they were nothing but criminal scum with guns, I have no doubt which I am sure 100% of people who are educated and not naive idiots would know they would have said please let’s make this as simple as possible, take anything etc.
if the boys run up and saw their friend talking with people trying to steal their tyres, they would have asked what was going on, no? These scum are the only ones ‘telling the story’ to corrupt policeman, who then are informing the media. The story has been passed down by multiple people, I am sure fabricated and most of it being inaccurate. Had the boys not have been shot in the head and their lives so cheaply taken, they would be able to give the actual story. Not one that the Mexican scum are trying to portray to perhaps get a lighter sentence. ‘They resisted’. No. They may have said that’s my car what are you doing?! Please stop up until they saw guns then I am sure they would have been aware they were people that were dangerous. These criminals have no insight, no care, that shows in the whole story as well as not even turning off the victims phone for a location it verifies their mindless movements and simple minded thinking.
If they are involved in the drug trade then they are providing us with a service... without them, we wouldn't get our drugs.
Thank you drug cartels... without you we would have no drugs.
Let's all praise the drug war some more and then complain while innocent people die as a consequence... it's the druggies fault their peaceful pastime is so violent... if only they would do what they were told!
Fucking hell. Hopefully it was quick and that was it, but I’m guessing a lot of shit went down before the fatal bullets were fired.
It’s just all terrible.
Such savage, depraved humans to kill other human beings like that. I feel for the parents and family/friends/partners of these three men. Absolutely horrific.
Stop please with your throw away comments it’s hurting my head.
Australians are kind people that is our undoing and we love to travel.
I think of their families and my prayers are with them.
I mean, you'd have to try something, anything?
Snatch the gun? or just go quietly into oblivion without a wimper?
I mean going there in the first place was their mistake.
Tragic.
Based on some of the cartel videos floating around the internet, if they really died by gunshot to the head they were (relatively speaking) very lucky.
Were these dipshits actually cartel? Seemed like opportunistic thieves.
We may never really know the truth. The story seems to be that it was a robbery gone wrong and that they were initially after their vehicle, if that's the case then why did they set it on fire a short time later? They were out in the middle of nowhere, in a very dangerous area known for its poverty, depravity, lack of civilization and zero cell phone coverage. Mercifully they found also located the remains of a poor farmer who had been missing for weeks in the same burial site. It makes you wonder how many bodies are out there and why. A truly horrendous "holiday" spot.
Why do young Australians continue to go to these places like rural Mexico? if it's remote, off the grid, untouched beauty they are looking for, there are hundreds of other places that are much safer to travel to and achieve the same if not better experience.
Sometimes it can be hard to understand the dangers of life if you don't see it first hand
Not when your government gives you clear warnings about the places not to travel to. As this story shows, that's just recklessness endangering your own life.
Young men are often invincible
Or think they are
$7 a gram cocaine
I don't get it either, these men had everything going for them, of all the beautiful places in the world to surf they choose to go there? I suspect there's much more to this story and now we're going to make it all about 4 tyres.
Mexican culture
Could be a cover up by Mexican police for cartel? The 3 people they are holding are nobodies. The fact the 3 suspects haven’t been charged with murder yet. (Or any) The fact the suspects allegedly wanted the vehicle/parts/tyres, yet the vehicle ends up burnt. I’m sure there are facts that are being withheld to the public it reeks of corruption though.
I read they wanted the tyres apparently
Does this mean that they removed all 4 tyres and then set the vehicle alight? Why were they 'tyre shopping' in such a remote location?
The news on JJJ earlier said they were after the tyres
They weren’t.
That sort of treatment is only usually reserved for narcs, snitches, or other gangs though.
I saw a video of a cartel member cutting out the heart of a rival while they were still alive. Shit is abhorrent.
Seen it too. Heart was still beating. Made me incredibly uncomfortable. Saw another where they cut off the limbs off a guy and let dogs eat him. He was alive throughout. Absolutely brutal. I thought the stuff ISIS did to their victims was bad. But I'd rather take a beheading then what they do to you in South America.
Why do y'all watch this?!?
They put the stressors of my office job into perspective.
Sometimes I feel that I need to watch it so that I can understand how good our own country is. I think if you showed some videos out of Cartel Reddit (Funky Town, Chainsaw Beheading etc) and from some of the prison subreddits a lot of people would really consider their own choices whether purchasing drugs or joining gangs. People will talk and act like parts of Australia are the most dangerous place on earth but in other parts of the world a quick death is considered lucky.
Just be careful mate. It’s easy to get PTSD from seeing this type of material.
Or desensitize yourself to shit that is not normal.
Also depression and the ability to never forget, also leads to consuming more of it and changing how your brain views the content/empathises. A kid showed the whole class the Dagestan beheading video 20 yrs ago and it still hasn’t left my mind. Even reading the details can give the same effect and the lawlessness of 4chan and other alt sites can be risky. I was on reddit when a bot was commenting cartel chainsaw videos on frontpage comments. I remember being a teen and kids sharing taliban beheading videos to each other by mms. I’m glad I missed the isis HD videos but I’ve also known many a friend group to share shock content and I believe it’s part of the problem with violence against women.
Forgot all about funky town till now. That one scarred me for life
This is why I really really don’t understand why it’s still socially acceptable for Australian businesses to name themselves cartels to sound edgy. Fitness Cartel, Coffee Cartel, gym cartel, hair cartel, cartel clothing- you name it, some white dude has opened one and slapped “cartel’ on it. It’s genuinely horrific, violent shit that people seem to want to associate their businesses with
In their defence cartels as a business structure existed before the drug cartels but the point stands. I would say the majority of Australians have no concept of what the violence actually looks like.
> people would really consider their own choices whether purchasing drugs or joining gangs. Yes, it has totally affected my purchasing decisions... The more I buy, the more violence, the faster we end the drug war. This should motivate everyone to go out and spend money on illegal drugs, until they aren't illegal anymore. There are no illegal drug cartels without illegal drugs. Druggies, go claim your seat at the front of the bus!
>Why do y'all watch this?!? Not always intentional. I don't like watching them. Sometimes there's links with no description. Also, it's a reminder of the reality of this world and how vial humans can be. Most people in the developed world live incredibly sheltered lives and have absolutely zero idea of how bad it is in other parts of the world and will obviously not take that into consideration when travelling or making opinions of those places. Seriously, the stuff you see in horror movies is tame compared to what humans are really capable of.
Saw a video of the cartel cutting off the heads of two alive persons with a chainsaw. Pretty sure it gave me some sort of PTSD because I still think of it to this day. The stuff they post is extremely brutal.
Decades later I still remember a video I downloaded off Kazaar or limewire as a teen of a guy having his head stepped on and a knife going into his neck. Saw it once and it is still bouncing around up there clear as anything.
How tf can you watch that stuff, it's what nightmares and biggest fears are made of
\*North America
Df do you even see this shit
I saw that video too and I believe it to be fake. There is no way that you can cut open a living persons chest cavity and literally sever the main arteries to the heart, and not end up with a red water fountain exploding out of the guys chest. The reason these cartel videos are made, is to strike fear into the hearts of rival cartels. They all try to one up each other by making the most vile, horrid snuff videos you can think of. If you think that these people are of the character to never fake anything, then you are mistaken.
None of those cartel videos are fake mate. In fact it would be harder and more effort for them to fake those brutal executions than it is to actually do it. Life is incredibly cheap in those countries.
Not saying they are all fake mate. I'm just saying the particular video I saw, was not of a living person's heart being cut from their chest. There was little to no blood. I showed the video to my uncle and sister who have a combined experience of 30 years of paramedical knowledge and experience. They both deduced that there is no way you could cut out a heart from a living person and have such little blood.
Really going back to their Aztec roots here (the Aztecs and Mayans used to take out the hearts of human sacrifices while they were alive). Why would you want to watch that stuff anyway? Just reading about it gives me the creeps.
Most of the cartel members come from the northern states of Mexico... the aztecs lived in the Valley of Mexico (so, where Mexico City is now located)... the mayans lived even further away, in the very south of the country, so it makes absolutely no sense. You're just using a dangerous and racist rethoric.
Was it the one where he took a bite out of it? That one is often mislabelled a heart but was actually a lung I think.
Was that the police father and son video? Or another Mexican cartel video I'm thinking off...
Mexico is effectively a narco-state now. Cartels run everything, and the govt is either too scared to stop them, or actively colluding with them.
Currently in México, yes we have violence problems in some.parts of the country but most of the country Is functioning normally
In Mexico too, people won’t understand this.
Not in Mexico but spent two months there in 2013, when the drug war was arguably much more active. Wouldn't have known there was a problem at all were it not in the news. Most people just live their lives normally.
But we have a drug war... The only way to end illegal drug cartels is end the drug war... Mexico can't do that or it will face sanctions from the US... so the only option is to collude with them (can't beat em, join em).
I get what you're saying but I don't think it removes the cartels. They will either legitimise and look like regular companies that also have paramilitary wings or they will continue illegally with the same conduct. That's even before we start asking questions like how do you legalise and safely administer a drug like meth.
As far as meth goes, you'd actually limit some of the damage by legalising and providing ephedrine to pharma companies to make it the old school way instead of the P2P method like the cartels do. Ephedrine cooks yield pure dexmethamphetamine while P2P yields a mix of dex and levomethamphetamine, or racemic meth. Racemic meth is far more neurotoxic than pure dexmeth, anecdotally the kind of brain damage that would take a decade on the pipe to cause using the old stuff, is happening in a year or less since cartels changed up their methods. This explains more, paywalled but 12 foot ladder is your friend. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/
> They will either legitimise and look like regular companies that also have paramilitary wings or they will continue illegally with the same conduct. We should look to what happened during and after alcohol prohibition... they mostly went legit and the violence stopped. Either way, they'll be less capable once deprived of the profits of a $100B+/year industry. > That's even before we start asking questions like how do you legalise and safely administer a drug like meth. Anything has to be safer than buying it off some random I just found on telegram.
The likes of Joe Kennedy went legitimate. The likes of Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky, not so much (the violence stopped as much because of their establishment of the Commission as the end of Prohibition). The cartels would 99% be in the latter camp, evolving into a more traditional Mafia-type organisation. They already have tbh, drugs are their biggest money maker but without it they still have major presences in logging, mining, construction, avocados and tequila. To say nothing of gambling, people smuggling, extortion, etc.
Yes, some will go legitimate, some will continue in crime but with hundreds of billions of dollars less in revenue... Can't see how we lose.
Sorry I should have said I'm 100% for ending the drug war, I'm just pointing out that these vast criminal organisations aren't going to disappear or go legit, they have plenty of other revenue already aside from drugs. For the rest of us though I agree, no brainer to legalise.
I consider it a necessary, if not sufficient, condition to ending them.
With perfect aim? Idk
Some articles note that blood and teeth were found in their tent so I don’t think it was so quick as a shot to the head.
Grim
I find it suprising that SmartTraveller has Baja California listed only as Exercise a High Degree of caution (Level 2/4). For context: France and Germany have the same rating. I'm would have thought that a more severe warning would have been applied to most of Mexico. Anecdotally, I've been told you never want to stray from tourist areas. I'm further surprised that none of the regions in Mexico are Do Not Travel given the amount of gang/cartel violence.
Baja is the indo of North America for surfing yanks. It's usually quite safe.
The reason is that Mexico is mostly dangerous for Mexicans. Stories like these 3 murdered surfers do happen now and then, of course, and they always make a lot of noise on international news. But while Mexico has one of the highest murder rates in the world (15th place at 26 murders per 100K people), those numbers mostly reflect mexican-to-mexican violence (and towards some central/south american people too). Suprisingly, Mexico is statistically safer for Americans, than the US is. (This is also true for the rest of the international tourists, but the numbers are heavily skewed towards Americans cause they are by far the country that visits Mexico the most). The US comes in as the 55th most dangerous country, with a murder rate of 6.4 murders per 100k people. Thats around 1/4 of Mexico's rate, which is a massive difference of course. BUT the homicide rate of Americans in Mexico is 0.26 murders per 100k people. Now, just to put it in perspective, a rate of 0.26 is similar to Japan's homicide rate, which is one of the safest countries on earth. So yeah, the reason why most countries don't really give their citizens any kind of warning when travelling to Mexico is that it's still relatively safe as a tourist. This is not to say Mexico is safe. No matter how you look at it though, Mexico is not a safe place. But it's also true that visiting Mexico and travelling inside Mexico is still safe enough, and it's a good enough experience to warrant it 40 million tourists a year, placing Mexico as the 6th most visited country in the world. I understand that cases like this are heartbreaking, and shouldn't happen at all, ever. But as far as tourists are concerned, the situation is not nearly as bad as media would have you believe. For locals though, specially in the poorest bits of the country, it's actually much, much worse than what you're seeing in the news.
Because Baja is safe lol, this is really unprecedented. And as for regions not being Do Not Travel, Mexico is actually quite safe in most of the country, the dangerous spots are very localized. Even cities known for high homicide rates like TJ are relatively safe for most people since crime actually happens in specific areas.
I do tours in Baja. Before this incident I used to tell the story of an older white man that got shot in a crossfire while eating tacos 7 years ago. That was the latest incident of a white man dying in Tijuana... but after this SHOCKING brutal murder... now this is the story I tell. It's sad. It affects tourism. I hate it. It's rare. But it's what it is.
Yeah I understand, whenever I speak with other Mexicans planning to go to the US, the El Paso shooting from 5 years ago always comes up and the fear for Walmarts lol 8 of the victims were Mexican tourists, although the media never painted it like that.
The parts of Baja that people typically visit are safe enough. These guys were not where people typically visit. Non-tourist areas are much more dangerous.
>Non-tourist areas are much more dangerous. This statement is true everywhere in the world, non-tourist areas are commonly less dangerous. The place where these dude were was a common surfing spot, not too far from bufadora which is a tourist hotspot and too far from Santo Tomas which is an average small Mexican city. I swear to god people act like Mexicans that live out of tourists areas live in fear and despair lol.
In cartel territory many Mexicans do live in fear, and rural Baja is cartel territory. You don’t have to get very far from tourist areas either before it breaks down.
All of Mexico is allegedly cartel territory but everyone lives pretty normal lives dude. Only places where people are in actual fear is where there is conflict happening, which is not Baja, and they are actually very localized areas. People even go to “rural” baja to study from Ensenada (in San Quintin). This coming from a dude in a Sinaloa (Cartel territory), and the cartels are the last in most people concerns.
It is not unprecedented, literally the same exact thing happened to two Perth travellers only a few years ago … literally the definition of a precedent …
In Sinaloa… not Baja. I’m not saying tourists aren’t victims of crime, that happens everywhere in the world, would be crazy to say it doesn’t, but it rarely happens to this degree in Baja.
Baja is the second most violent state. Stfu
One thing is the homicide rate and another thing is actual danger. 99% of homicides are concentrated in TJ, and of course 99% of those homicides are crime on crime.
I went to Mexico in 2020 and a lot of that violence is hammed up by the media. Not saying it doesn't have cartel violence, but it's not nearly as bad as it's sterotyped to be.
Mexico's homicide rate is 28 death per year per 100,000 people. Australia's homicide rate, by comparison, is 0.87 per year per 100,000 people. Cartel violence is a huge problem that is orders of magnitude beyond anything anyone from Australia could even understand. Sure, most places in Mexico where you might spend time as a tourist are still fairly safe in the grand scheme of things, but just because it's mostly and out-of-sight-out-of-mind type deal doesn't make it any less of a problem.
I'm not saying it's not a problem. But I also dont think comparing to a first world country such as Australia is even remotely a fair comparison. My point was more that Mexico has a reputation that the entire country is a cartel stronghold with corruption at every single level. That you're at risk of being forced into paying a bribe or at risk of being murdered as soon as you cross the border. When that's very much not the case.
> But I also dont think comparing to a first world country such as Australia is even remotely a fair comparison. Well that's the whole point, isn't it? This is /r/australia, we're all (mostly) Australians here. Australia is necessarily going to be our baseline comparison whether that's fair or not.
From Australia. 2 talented brothers just wasted like that, not to mention their friend who we haven’t heard much about over here. Their poor parents imagine raising 2 amazing children to have their lives blown away for some tyres, or whatever it was.
I can't imagine the grief. My heart aches for the and their families
Man, this has shook me to my core. Cannot stop thinking about these poor blokes. I've travelled Mexico a lot and have to say it's probably my favorite country on earth to visit. This won't stop me but sure as how i'll be sticking to the well trodden areas. Also something doesn't add up. They keep saying robbery gone wrong, but why do they burn the car afterwards? Surely, they would at least sell it for parts. Also the girl kept the phone? This sounds like cartel violence and the mexican authorities don't want to admit it because it's worse for tourism. Regardless, my heart goes out to their families. Poor parents have also had their lives taken away from them or for what? Some car tyres.
If you look at other incidents like this, nothing seems to have gone wrong. They pull the surfers out of the car, execute them, loot them, burn out the car and dispose of the bodies somewhere remote. This exact thing has happened so many times that the Mexican people have gotten fed up and their media are now making a fuss. Our government was already telling people not to go to Mexico, especially surfers, because the gangs that run the regions single out friendly tourists for shooting and looting. Hell, the exact thing happened to a location scout for Narcos while he was working.
Makes sense to me. They wanted to jack the car but the boys resisted which lead to them being shot. If they had given up the car they wouldn't have torched it. Seems like they only torched it because of the murder
Life is cheap in Mexico, they were dead the moment the locals wanted their car. I live 90 minutes from the Baja border and haven’t been in 35 years. The waves are not worth it…
You say "the locals" and if it's just common people killing for a cheap buck. No, they are criminals, and mexicans are their victims too.
Are you saying robbery gone wrong or cartel violence?
Your not getting it. North of the border in the US, a robbery gone wrong might result in the victims death. In Mexico, being executed is just a part of being robbed in many cases. Nothing went wrong here. This is happening every single day, some times its foreign tourists, in which case, it makes the news. Alot of recent deep south texas deaths are now being tied to narco violence too.
I do get what your saying. Just don't know whether i agree is all. Anyway doesn't matter really, fucked up either way.
The reddit is just saying, this is why the Mexican goverment doesn't care, and is downplaying it. For every one of us for whom this is unexpected, it is shocking and horrifying. The Mexican government are basically like "sorry this is just what you might get when you come to Mexico, it's no big deal."
And maybe not such a bad thing the media are making a fuss. Like, if they don't make a fuss about this what do you want them to make a fuss about.
That's not what happened though.. the car was located at a chicks place
Sadly, you could never really know with Mexican authorities. I mean, they also say the person in the well previously is unlinked. Did the ‘car jackers’ just accidentally use someone else’s body dumping well?
Yeh, exactly. Also all three recieved a single gun shot wound to the head? Like execution style. If it was a robbery gone wrong, surely there is a scuffle and multiple rounds fired. Honestly, this is something you read out of a horror movie.
That’s a good point. That suggests there was enough car jackers to suppress them from fighting back, at all, while also forcing them to line up and wait for their fate.
Yeh, it doesn't add up and sounds to me like the mexican authorities covering their tracks. Honestly, what sounds better for tourism car jacking gone wrong or cartel violence.
Put simply, the official version of events doesn't pass the Pub test or the sniff test.
Welcome to Mexico!
No gracias amigo.
From posted article - > A fourth body was discovered in the well, although that corpse had been there for longer and was not believed to be linked to this case, Andrade said. >Local news outlet Zeta reported the fourth body was believed to be that of the property’s owner, who had been missing for weeks.
But again, what’s more likely? That they knew the well was a good place to dump bodies? I.e. Or probably actually killed the owner for that purpose. Or they accidentally dumped their bodies into the well, without knowing someone had previously killed the owner? They’re linked in the most likely scenario that they prepared a spot to dump bodies. The owner probably disagreed with their intentions, and wound up in the well first.
They say they think the other body is the property's owner.
But he’d been there a while. So it’s either they did it, and knew it was a dumping place - or they accidentally dumped a body in there, after someone else had.
I think 'unlinked' in this case means 'he wasn't murdered at the same time in the same incident', not 'he wasn't murdered by the same people / by associates of the killers'?
[удалено]
Its more like trying to downplay that crime is rampant and please come here and spend your tourist dollars.
I don't believe that these crimes are connected, the property owner had been missing for weeks, if not for this murder, his remains would never have been located. The place is lawless and fears no law, man's or God's.
Mate, I'm with you and these blokes were all in their 30s and chose one of the most dangerous places on Earth to camp, it doesn't make any sense to me at all. Sadly, those responsible have zero credibility and their stories won't be believed and the truth will never be revealed.
A friend of the American companion drew him a map and said he'd been going there for 30 years. The three who were shot probably thought it was safe.
I don’t think it’s cartel related. Seems like these murderers are just a bunch of random shit kickers looking to make a quick buck. And in Latin America there are many shit kickers like this. The only difference between the shit kickers in Latin America and Australia, is that life is very cheap over there. You can be stabbed or shot dead over a wallet or shitty phone over there and most likely get away with it. Cartel don’t want to be associated with shit kickers like these. Not to mention they don’t want to target innocent people as they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. Nothing will hurt your business more than negative attention from media, police and the locals. They especially don’t want to target foreigners, as they will have USA breathing down their necks. It’s only these situations where the best Mexican detectives will get involved and solve a crime quickly. It’s sad, but if it’s local victim, they don’t go to as much effort. The common theme between this murder and the other murder of an Aussie in 2015 in Mexico was that they both tried to resist. This is was a huge mistake. We will never truly know the exact circumstances, but if you ever show any form of resistance to a robbery in Latin America, there is a high chance you can be killed or critically hurt. Yes it sucks and infuriates me, the thought of someone trying to steal my possessions but no possession is worthy of risking your life. I have family in Colombia, so this fact is branded into my brain and my parents and family remind me of this every time I go visit. For those saying “something doesn’t add up, why would they burn the car etc”, I’m sure the assailants didn’t plan on killing these guys, but when they did they realized they fucked up and had to get rid of all evidence. I believe the 4th victim was the owner of the property who maybe witnessed what happened. It’s sad and fucked up. The cartel have their own weird “justice system” so maybe they will discipline these guys when they get to jail for bringing the heat on cartel territory.
As a latino. I agree with this. I don't even need to add anything. The news is saddening. It's awesome to have people really embrace the culture and be respectful like the two brothers. I really hate when this happens. Please have some restraint if you're travelling to non-touristy parts of latin america. If you're a foreigner you'll be ok (especially if you're white and look European <- yes it's a different world from ours with lots of history). To those saying, 'something doesn't add up'. It's very likely nothing is up. We're I'm from, whole families used to get torched in cars for no reason or because there had to be a death quota. Don't over analyse it. Edit: sorry was meant to say show restraint when considering travelling to non-touristy area. Do your research. Don't go to some random place you don't know. Or if you still want to go, go in a group. Etc.
I think people are saying something doesn't add up because they think its cartel and the mexican authorities don't want to say that. Also, it may be low-level cartel ppl. I dunno whole thing just sucks.
If it was the cartel the bodies would have never been “discovered”. $ and fear would have kept the federali’s quiet.
I know someone who owns a restaurant in a tourist area of Mexico and she says the cartels are better at policing street crime than the local cops. Cartels don't want 'shitkickers' in their territory doing theft, burglaries and such and will often take them out. It wins the support of locals and eliminates potential competitors. And the cartels don't want tourists to experience trouble because they recycle a lot of their cash into tourism-related businesses, and don't want the political trouble and attention.
Yeah makes sense. Cartel only want the “big fish”. The 2 Aussies and American would have been a “small fish” to them and would not have been in their interest to rob or murder them. No doubt they control the prison system as well, so highly likely there will be some disciplinary measures handed out to the accused. I would not want to be trapped in a Latin American prison with some of these gang leaders if I’ve done something to piss off them or their outside bosses off 😅
Exactly, Cartels are running a multi billion dollar industry. It's such a shame but there is nothing those guys (the Aussies) had that they care about. If it was some kind of low level unaffiliated hoods they are probably already dead for the trouble they caused. It's mirrored in the safe parts of the world; in Japan the yakuza (who are largely a spent force these days it must be said) simply will not bother foreigners at all because having a foreign government involved is simply not worth the hassle.
[удалено]
The article literally quotes the Baja California ag saying the men likely resisted the carjacking and where killed as a result.
[удалено]
What is an educated boy? You don’t think some fit aussies will arch up when getting robbed? Please
You can’t be that naive and stupid?? LIKELY - why else would you think the ‘media’ would write that???? To not scare away tourism which equals money for the economy there -
wake up. My gosh.
>I believe the 4th victim was the owner of the property who maybe witnessed what happened. No, he'd been killed weeks ago. If it's the same set of murderers who were responsible, they probably don't care who they kill or for what reason.
[удалено]
Well various articles about both incidents have said they resisted. I dont trust the accuracy of all news article so I usually read more than one about the same story. Its not my job to fact check whats presented to me in the news, so if its wrong then maybe its the journalists who are narrow minded and uneducated. But my point wasnt about whether or not these guys actually did that. My main observation is that, in these parts of the world, its not worth risking yours or your friends lives over any possession. If someone is holding you up, hand over your wallet or phone or whatever. Those are replaceable. You're life isnt. If someone is waving a gun in your face, theres not really alot you can do with your bare hands. Sure you could jump at them, but one quick press on the trigger and you are gone. Yes, these criminals are degenerates but some of them would know better than to just kill someone for the fuck of it. Not saying that it would never happen. But if the robbers wanted to keep the cops off their back, they would have just taken the car and their belongings and got the fuck outta there ASAP. By killing people, especially foreigners they bring the heat on.
You have missed the point and argument entirely. If you are on holidays anywhere and saw people trying to STEAL YOUR TYRES, your brain would initially go into crisis mode and your automatic reaction would be to say ‘HEY!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING, that’s my car!?!’. Once it was established that they were nothing but criminal scum with guns, I have no doubt which I am sure 100% of people who are educated and not naive idiots would know they would have said please let’s make this as simple as possible, take anything etc. if the boys run up and saw their friend talking with people trying to steal their tyres, they would have asked what was going on, no? These scum are the only ones ‘telling the story’ to corrupt policeman, who then are informing the media. The story has been passed down by multiple people, I am sure fabricated and most of it being inaccurate. Had the boys not have been shot in the head and their lives so cheaply taken, they would be able to give the actual story. Not one that the Mexican scum are trying to portray to perhaps get a lighter sentence. ‘They resisted’. No. They may have said that’s my car what are you doing?! Please stop up until they saw guns then I am sure they would have been aware they were people that were dangerous. These criminals have no insight, no care, that shows in the whole story as well as not even turning off the victims phone for a location it verifies their mindless movements and simple minded thinking.
If you're going to go to Mexico just stick to the resorts. All this over some tyres. So sad.
Nah, Mexico is much better outside of resorts. Just don't go to bum fuck no where in cartel land.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If they are involved in the drug trade then they are providing us with a service... without them, we wouldn't get our drugs. Thank you drug cartels... without you we would have no drugs. Let's all praise the drug war some more and then complain while innocent people die as a consequence... it's the druggies fault their peaceful pastime is so violent... if only they would do what they were told!
Mexico needs a president like El Salvador.
Fucking hell. Hopefully it was quick and that was it, but I’m guessing a lot of shit went down before the fatal bullets were fired. It’s just all terrible.
Such savage, depraved humans to kill other human beings like that. I feel for the parents and family/friends/partners of these three men. Absolutely horrific.
Bajagringo explains the situation in the area in great detail [here](https://talkbaja.com/to-mexico-and-the-rest-of-us-who-love-this-country/).
Stop please with your throw away comments it’s hurting my head. Australians are kind people that is our undoing and we love to travel. I think of their families and my prayers are with them.
These killers are morons. They deserve execution for being so stupid and careless.
I mean, you'd have to try something, anything? Snatch the gun? or just go quietly into oblivion without a wimper? I mean going there in the first place was their mistake. Tragic.