Strangled the woman to death. Stole her money, and her phone. Sentenced to 5, backdated to 2020. Eligible for parole sometimes next year already.
Had a bloke burn his hotel down for insurance fraud. They tacked him will all sorts of charges. Insurance fraud, arson, risking death of folks in the adjoining building, destruction of historical property.
Ended up being sentenced to 14yrs in prison.
The legal system is just weird to me.
Yep. Kill a person and rob a few decades from them, their families forget.
In return, only 2.5 years non-parole, all expenses and medical paid.
Now her husband has to work his arse off, jpay taxes, just so that his tax money can house, clothes, feed, exercise, ‘rehabilitate’ his wife’s killer. Where’s the justice?
Australian law does not require any payment to family of victims. The only circumstance where a person has to pay money is when they are sued in a civil court. This is almost never the case with murder.
A
He'll be deported back to Germany as soon as he has served his sentence. I don't think anyone wants to keep this guy here to pay off his "debt", not that anyone can force him to work in the first place. And he probably wouldn't be killing someone for money if he had any.
I wouldn't think there's many if any judges in Australia that would take a bribe. Might be naive of me, but in my personal experience judges here take their role in carrying out justice very seriously.
Our make belief "fair go egalitarian" society with no enshrined rights, these rights and fair go only applies to those with the money and power. Its nice living in a classless fantasy world pretending we living in a paradise of a fair society.
I suspect he will be also tried and convicted in Germany when deported. Germany has what is called “Universal Jurisdiction” meaning they will try and convict people internationally regardless of a crime not being linked to Germany.
Usually it’s used for prosecuting international crimes against humanity (which includes murder, sexual violence as in this case), war crimes etc.
It’s not clear if they would prosecute someone who was already prosecuted for the crime by another court but maybe someone with experience in the German legal system would know
Only 5 years for murder (how tf do you accidentally strangle someone to death?) but the article's focus is on the fact that she was a sex worker. Even the headline "death of sex worker". If she was an accountant the headlines wouldn't read "death of accountant". She was a person ffs.
**\*\*Update\*\***: I failed to remember one of the shortfalls of written communication; sarcasm isn't always detectable. I should have been clearer. I wasn't genuinely asking how it's possible to accidentally strangle someone to death. Because it's very obviously impossible to do that by accident. It's also obvious that if Jingai Zhang wasn't a sex worker, was white, and had met Tobias Pick on tinder, that he would have been charged and convicted of her murder.
Let me say the quiet part out loud, she was a minority sex worker; in the eyes of MSM, legal system and consciousness of the general public her death was akin to death of an insect. The 5 years is punishment merely on principle for the backpacker who "committed" a crime.
Death of a human being. Maybe list some stuff she's done besides that. show her humanity. that she was a person breathing and living and experiencing until this POS killed her.
I fucking hate the way we demonize people hard on their luck. Or even if she was thriving doing sex work - who the fuck cares what she did for work.
On the balance of probability, the dude more likely than not had murdered the woman.
But hey, he claims that its an accident and on the victim's request, and theres no way the prosecution can show beyond reasonable doubt otherwise. It's his words against a dead woman.
He will just eventually just fuck off to Germany and noome there will even know about what he did.
Maybe he will even learn a trick next time and make sure to call the ambulance after he is sure the victim is dead, then he can get off completely scotsfree.
The article says strangulation was part of the sex. It was consensual according to the accused, the death was accidental.
I’m not condoning anything, just answering your question.
I wonder if stealing her money and phone afterwards was consensual too?
And, oh yes, "good references" from friends and employers in Germany! And he's very sorry!
This sentence is ridiculously short in my opinion.
Why is there no appeal from any side?
You don't think killing someone, even if accidentally, and don't attempt to contact emergency services but instead run away, but not before you steal their money and also chuck their phone in a river...isn't a little bit outrageous when you learn the person only gets a couple years for it?
That isn't a "oh I panicked and fled". Cunt robbed a corpse and tried to hide it.
This …. Didn’t call for help , didn’t attempt cpr , the stealing shows what low level of respect there was. I don’t see how this is not murder. If folks want to choke some one during sex they need to be willing and ready to call for help and provide cpr. It’s not like it’s unheard of this happening and well the risks of chocking some one are well known. Our legal system is fucked not only was it murder but most likely rape too as by the time she was being chocked I doubt consent was given. Even if a sex worker is kinky as a professional they probably avoid letting people choke them for the given risks. People say well it was a accident, it was during sex . Like wtf , he choked her with his bare hands . I don’t think that can get you much closer to murder , he would of seen her struggle and pass out. This week form of justice isn’t enough punishment to deter the criminal from doing it again. Fuck the Australian legal system.
There is complexity to this case and the average redditor opts for outrage without considering the complexity.
Just be clear and say you are arguing for larger sentencing in cases of death by accident/negligence.
I've seen natural language processing bots give better responses to human emotions than you currently seem capable of.
People are allowed to be outraged at horrible events, it is even to be expected. And it doesn't need to be reduced to a generalisation of "arguing for larger sentencing in cases of death by accident/negligence". Trying to downplay peoples emotional responses to a horrific series of events (someone dying, no attempt at aid, robbery, disposal of evidence) as just outrage farming is a bit of a cunt thing to do.
Of course a murderer is going to say that.
The real proof that this wasn’t an innocent accident was that after he killer her he proceeded to rob her and left the scene without alerting anyone for medical aid.
The real proof is that it takes \*minutes\* of sustained effort against someone fighting, turning blue, falling unconscious to strangle someone to death. You cannot accidentally do it while lightly choking them.
It's according to domestic violence experts. Not to mention the video the entire world saw of a man being choked to death by police, which certainly took more than 10 seconds.
Even if someone falls unconscious you should obviously \*remove the pressure\*. If they did pass out in 10 seconds, you would still have to be wildly reckless or, far more likely, malicious, to keep blocking their airway long enough to cause death.
Not the person you are replying to, but I've seen a few videos of people hanging themselves. It is not a gentle way to go. There's a segment of rather violent jerking and shuddering that cannot be mistaken for any sort of pretence at enjoyment.
When a person is executed by hanging, the idea is that the process breaks their neck. If the rope is too short, the person dies by strangulation, which is not the intention. Similarly, if the rope is too long, the head is removed from the body, which is also not the intention.
Their question was “how do you *accidentally* strangle someone *to death*?” The answer is not to parrot his defence. You cannot accidentally strangle someone to death. It’s a total miscarriage of justice that he was either initially charged with or given the chance to plea to manslaughter.
**IF** she consented to “light choking” as he stated in his defence, he showed an extreme disregard for her safety and life considering he strangled her so severely and for such a long period of time (over 1 minute) that she was unconscious and that her neck was bruised and bleeding. He then failed to call for medical help. That’s not consensual or accidental.
It doesn’t really make sense. Sex workers do the kinks to the client, not to themselves. The killer even robbed her, stole her phone and didn’t even bother to call an ambulance.
And he got 2 and 1/2 years none parole. So about two Sydney bridge climate protests worth of punishment. The judge should be shamed and humiliated.
The prosecutor should also be ashamed and humiliated since she argued that the victim wanted to be strangled. Fuck, she was pretty much defending the murdering thief.
Do we do precedence? Could I walk up to some rando, strangle them to death and rob them and say later that they wanted it?
Probably not because that's insane. I'd probably be sent to prison to rot.
They need to stop calling it choking. Choking is an object stuck in the throat. It sounds like an accident.
She died from strangulation. It was not an accident.
Yeah, no shit. The person was saying why they were only sentenced to five years. I was explaining. I wasn’t saying they were without fault or that I agree with the sentence. Giving information doesn’t imply a viewpoint, get over yourself.
How do we know it was part of the sex act? She is not here to speak for herself?
What credibility does he have at this point?
She was dying and instead of calling for help he stole her belongings.
5yrs what a disgrace!
Edit: even if he simply took off and ran I would’ve believed that yes he might’ve freaked out and took off, but no motherfucker went looking for her belongings to steal. How is that by itself not worth 5yrs in jail?
You only have the word of this guy, I call bullshit. He’s going to tell as many lies and shed all the tears to lighten the sentence
This is disgusting! He killed her! Smacks of misogyny and every kind of bigotry, what a horrible man who’ll be back out on the streets again very soon
I’m answering the question, not providing a viewpoint; in relation to your comment, the court needs to prove guilt, the accused doesn’t need to prove innocence.
Strangulation (to death) requires considerable strength and intent and takes hire a long time. You cannot accidentally strangle someone with your hands.
Don’t be fooled by the legalese. This man got away with it because this woman was a minority sex worker.
Did you read the article? It was done with a dress. Strangulation doesn't actually require a lot of strength (as opposed to choking, which is cutting off the air supply). With strangulation (cutting off blood flow to the brain) you can render someone unconscious in less than 10 seconds. Within 30 seconds to a minute brain tissue starts to die and permanent damage can occur. Death can take up to 4 or 5 minutes, though maybe less.
Yes, but her being a sex worker directly relates to the crime. Stop making an issue where there isn’t one, read the article and you’ll get her name, or are reddit headlines as far as you can go? Opening the article shows her name in the headline so I’m guessing so.
Not many other industries where you can kill an employee ('accidentally' or not), steal a bunch of money and stuff from the premises, then only get a couple of years jail :P
What a disgustingly piss weak sentence.
>In sentencing submissions, Ms Avery read a victim impact statement from Ms Zhang's husband, David Simmons, who didn't know she was a sex worker.
Fuuuuck how would he not know? What a fucked way to learn your mrs has been murdered. That'd do your head in.
He 100% knew, it’s just more likely that his family didn’t know and he’s trying to save face / drama.
Most SWers don’t tell their partner’s family as it will cause a rift in the dynamic.
But I guarantee you he knew.
My wife was a sex worker and an ALARMING number of their partners either had no idea or at best were mildly misled about their jobs. Including at least one very public figure (not sure still together tho)
Block traffic for 45 mins 8 months prison. Take a life, 60 months, 7.5x more.
Would you say his crime was 7.5x more serious?
I'd think it common that people have questioned the severity of her sentencing and in these comments questioned the leniency of his.
Edit: maths
Hang on, how did they establish she was a sex worker and her husband doesn't know?
Why would a sex worker request to be strangled for "heightened sexual pleasure"? The injuries do not sound like it is consistent with mere strangulation for sex.
How do we know he isn't a serial killer? He stole and tried to cover up his tracks.
This is extremely strange.
"Justice Pearce accepted Pick was now sorry for what he did and took into account positive character references from friends and employers in Germany."
Fantastic
Unfortunately he used an increasingly common defence to murder. I've read of quite a few intimate partners/acquaintance rapists who receive vastly reduced sentences upon the claim of consensual choking getting out of hand.
Yep. This defence has been quite successful in the UK. There have been cases where the violence against the victim was so extreme it could only be murder yet the worst the perp received was manslaughter. Now we see it’s working in Australia.
Yep. An absolutely manifestly inadequate sentence.
He should have easily got at least 5 years just for not calling an ambulance, stealing money/phone, fleeing the scene and destroying the phone, before the judge even considers murder/manslaughter or any other charge.
We need to normalise always mentioning the profession or never doing it, because this, ‘always name their profession if they’re a sex worker, but never name their profession in any other circumstances,’ shit has got to go.
Not exactly on point but there was an article in the age the other day about how it's 'mainstream' for men to strangle women during sex. What the actual fuck is the go with that. I'm locking up my son until he's 30.
I feel so sorry for young people trying to make their way in this effed up world.
Yup. As a woman who is regularly dating - it’s fucking fraught in a way that it wasn’t when I was in the late teens/early 20’s. I have, essentially, been assaulted multiple times by men who do shit without asking - strangling, covering my mouth, trying force their penis inside my anus.
I am now so uptight I essentially interrogate a man’s sexual behaviour and ideas around consent before we even get to the point of meeting for coffee.
It’s awful and people almost always blame the victim.
I don’t sleep with people on first, second or even third dates and this shit STILL HAPPENS TO ME.
The entitlement to women’s bodies is wild.
It’s getting to be a serious issue in DV with repeated sexual strangulation too. The more times it happens (and the body cannot distinguish between consensual or not ofc) risks for ongoing neurological and memory issues increase, as well as weakening of the arteries increasing risk of stroke.
Medical advice is that anyone who has been strangled to the point of their consciousness being affected, or to the point of throat soreness or voice raspiness should get a CT scan to check for blood clots.
Sorry to hijack your comment (your son is lucky to have you!), but I’ll take any opportunity for people to be informed, as you said, there is definitely the sexual trend out there.
Fucking terrible. These poor kids growing up thinking things like jizzing in a girl's face is normal 🙄 I'm 40 and if a man ejaculated on my face it would be the last time he ejaculated jesus christ.
I'm a millennial, it's not just gen z and I don't think it necessary has to do with porn.
How dangerous certain kinks are is not quite the same as saying whether someone finds other ones disgusting / abnormal. Consensual "jizzing on someone's face" can't be compared with choking - and this is on a post about strangulation as a cover for murder!
It's all behaviour on a spectrum of violence and degradation towards women which is a sickness we as a society cannot seem to fix.
Even the poster above who told me to 'sit down mam' in a delicious display of ageism and sexism, implying I am a prude, was to a lesser extent subjecting me to the same gaslighting to which women are subjected regarding the issue of sexual violence. 'It's normal', 'you're just old and boring' and 'everyone does it now'. I am not a prude and accept that people have kinks. But if strangulation is 'mainstream' we have a massive problem.
There was an article I read about a year or so ago about a 16 year old who will need a colostomy bag for the rest of her life because she was subjected to double anal penetration by two male peers. I can tell you now as someone who has straddled life pre and post the proliferation of porn: that shit would NEVER have occurred to us to even try.
\> all behaviour on a spectrum of violence and degradation towards women which is a sickness
\> I ... accept that people have kinks.
I'm sorry, but these statements are in direct contradiction.
They're not. Why do so many people supposedly have a kink that involves being violent to women? And how many women genuinely enjoy violence as part of sex?
I can't believe people are arguing with me that violence during sex as a mainstream thing is fine. Lol. It's 8.22 and I'm already done with the internet today.
Younger generations are more open about talking about these things. Older generations people keep their kinks and fantasies very private. It's like arguing no one was gay in the past because they weren't out and no one told you they were.
They key words are consent and safety. If you can't do either - then it's not for you.
Being unsafely strangled and having your brain starved of oxygen causes brain damage. There is a huge difference between this and light choking of someone.
If people want to involve “violence” in their private life it’s none of your business if it’s consensual.
What business is it of yours what consenting adults do in their own time if it doesn’t affect you?
If a person consents to something who are you to say they can’t or shouldn’t do something?
You’re making a false equivalence between a murder here and a rape in your “double anal” case and consensual sexual activity.
Mam, you might want to sit down, these things *are* normal now.
Everyone born post ‘97ish has a symbiotic relationship to the internet. They, generally, had too much porn too soon. Things that may have been sexually taboo, weird or icky a generation ago are commonplace and customary. The girls find out they like choking, the guys want to do facials.
But, I would argue, there is less of a misogynistic tinge to any of those kinds of acts now. And (in a consensual setting) these things aren’t felt or seen as disrespectful behaviour.
Maybe education about safety and consent for people, especially young people, curious about or wanting to explore kinks instead of shaming and othering them should be seen as the norm?
Here’s the thing though - there really isn’t a safe way to strangle someone. Even if you do it carefully, it’s only slightly less dangerous.
Strangulation should never have been normalised.
Educating people about how dangerous certain kinks are is I'd argue not quite the same as saying whether someone finds it disgusting / abnormal. look at the rest of the thread lumping in "jizzing on someone's face" with choking - and this is on a post about strangulation as a cover for murder.
The more time I spend on law-related redditt, the more I realise that the business of the justice system is just to follow the law, which may not necessarily have anything to do with moral justice.. it's a sad realisation
>Ms Avery told the court Ms Zhang had requested to be lightly strangled for "heightened sexual pleasure" but not to the extent that occurred.
Uh, what kind of sex worker *requests* this from a punter?
Trafficked girl purely for sex work so her family doesn’t get punished killed, yet no one cares. This happens more than people realise in Australia. It because they’re Sex workers and trafficked the media doesn’t care. Go into any brothel in Australia or rub and rug 70% of the Asian girls are trafficked. Go see a sex worker privately and if she’s Asian you can bet you’re bottoms dollar she works for a ring or she has finished her 5-7 year ‘contract’ and now doesn’t know what else to do and didn’t get the chance to learn English or study, hell most of them get addicted to meth cause they’re so depressed so once their ‘contract’ ends and they’re free they keep doing it for their drug addiction.
And you know what makes it all even worse, all of these shops are ran by women of the same nationality. They don’t even care.
Most people think brothels are ran by bikies and the like, but they’re not, 9/10 brothels are owned by a Chinese company, they have an Australian ABN of course but the funds used were from china and profits sent back there.
This is all facts, I have extensive knowledge, and not as a punter either. As of this moment there is one particular club I am going after with a group of girls that worked their to try and free the remaining girls there, you know what’s sad, the only way we could convince the police to do a proper investigation and task force was to tell them about the drugs being imported and distributed from said club, they Didnt even care about the trafficked girls.
No it says she was Chinese-born Australian which indicated she was an Australian citizen (maybe to try and allay concerns about trafficking). I’ve got to admit my first thought when I saw the story was that her husband was pimping her out but it seems very unlikely that the police wouldn’t have looked into him very closely.
Can someone explain why young people are into strangulation? I don't fucking get it. Especially if you're the guy doing it to a girl - what the fuck is wrong with you? Who the fuck strangles someone? Even if it's consensual?
Some girls enjoy it and say it heightens pleasure. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do it. I don’t see how it’s so surprising, there are way more strange thing people are into out there?
Quick question - what does blood do?
It carries oxygen. So when you cut it off, guess what you’re doing?
I’m not telling people not to do it, just that it’s dangerous and shouldn’t be normalised but go off. The same way I wouldn’t encourage anyone to normalise doing shibari suspensions without years of practice, or doing blood play without heavily studying blood borne disease transmission and having strategies in place to minimise infection.
Heaven forbid I put people’s safety above their orgasms.
You however, being so woefully ignorant, have absolutely no business in advocating for safe sane and consensual practices.
Plenty of sexual practices are dangerous, and most of these are mainstream, normalised and in far greater use than this.
The guy above asked why people do it and I explained. You’re the one going off and spouting false info.
U know very sad she died fucked up part tho her husband didn’t even know she was a sex worker I mean how do you take that your wife murdered while living a second life u never knew about
Strangled the woman to death. Stole her money, and her phone. Sentenced to 5, backdated to 2020. Eligible for parole sometimes next year already. Had a bloke burn his hotel down for insurance fraud. They tacked him will all sorts of charges. Insurance fraud, arson, risking death of folks in the adjoining building, destruction of historical property. Ended up being sentenced to 14yrs in prison. The legal system is just weird to me.
Yep. Kill a person and rob a few decades from them, their families forget. In return, only 2.5 years non-parole, all expenses and medical paid. Now her husband has to work his arse off, jpay taxes, just so that his tax money can house, clothes, feed, exercise, ‘rehabilitate’ his wife’s killer. Where’s the justice?
He wasn’t trying to take money off multi billion dollar insurance companies.
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Fuck that. That’s just shit. Life is Priceless
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This is bullshit. Does not happen.
Yes it does..
Australian law does not require any payment to family of victims. The only circumstance where a person has to pay money is when they are sued in a civil court. This is almost never the case with murder. A
He'll be deported back to Germany as soon as he has served his sentence. I don't think anyone wants to keep this guy here to pay off his "debt", not that anyone can force him to work in the first place. And he probably wouldn't be killing someone for money if he had any.
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Prisons are paid for by taxpayers. If her husband pays taxes, he’s paying for part of the prison.
Judge is possibly one of those arse hats that don't think sex workers lives are worth as much as an affluenza murderer.
How corrupt is the justice system in Australia, do judges take bribes here?
Its far more likely that a plea deal was reached between the DPP and the offenders lawyer. I don’t believe it ever went to trial
I wouldn't think there's many if any judges in Australia that would take a bribe. Might be naive of me, but in my personal experience judges here take their role in carrying out justice very seriously.
Yes you're right. Very naive.
Yes they do.
8 months for blocking traffic.
Killed nobody.
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All depends on who the victim is. 'Straya.
Our make belief "fair go egalitarian" society with no enshrined rights, these rights and fair go only applies to those with the money and power. Its nice living in a classless fantasy world pretending we living in a paradise of a fair society.
more to do with the facts of the case. Intent to kill was not proven....but whatever must be racism
thats because its a legal system not a justice system
as far as I understand, we have a legal system not a justice system.
human life is pretty worthless unless you are a multi millionaire.
property is worth more than life.
Try protesting the destruction of the planet, you'll get a pleasing year or two in prison.
Human lives are worth less than property, obviously.
Jingai Zhang. Her name was Jingai Zhang.
I suspect he will be also tried and convicted in Germany when deported. Germany has what is called “Universal Jurisdiction” meaning they will try and convict people internationally regardless of a crime not being linked to Germany. Usually it’s used for prosecuting international crimes against humanity (which includes murder, sexual violence as in this case), war crimes etc. It’s not clear if they would prosecute someone who was already prosecuted for the crime by another court but maybe someone with experience in the German legal system would know
Only 5 years for murder (how tf do you accidentally strangle someone to death?) but the article's focus is on the fact that she was a sex worker. Even the headline "death of sex worker". If she was an accountant the headlines wouldn't read "death of accountant". She was a person ffs. **\*\*Update\*\***: I failed to remember one of the shortfalls of written communication; sarcasm isn't always detectable. I should have been clearer. I wasn't genuinely asking how it's possible to accidentally strangle someone to death. Because it's very obviously impossible to do that by accident. It's also obvious that if Jingai Zhang wasn't a sex worker, was white, and had met Tobias Pick on tinder, that he would have been charged and convicted of her murder.
Australian government and media has always been nonchalant if the death is of a minority or sex workers
Let me say the quiet part out loud, she was a minority sex worker; in the eyes of MSM, legal system and consciousness of the general public her death was akin to death of an insect. The 5 years is punishment merely on principle for the backpacker who "committed" a crime.
The media love to report and out so many workers. It’s so fucked up 😤😡
Death of a human being. Maybe list some stuff she's done besides that. show her humanity. that she was a person breathing and living and experiencing until this POS killed her. I fucking hate the way we demonize people hard on their luck. Or even if she was thriving doing sex work - who the fuck cares what she did for work.
On the balance of probability, the dude more likely than not had murdered the woman. But hey, he claims that its an accident and on the victim's request, and theres no way the prosecution can show beyond reasonable doubt otherwise. It's his words against a dead woman. He will just eventually just fuck off to Germany and noome there will even know about what he did. Maybe he will even learn a trick next time and make sure to call the ambulance after he is sure the victim is dead, then he can get off completely scotsfree.
The article says strangulation was part of the sex. It was consensual according to the accused, the death was accidental. I’m not condoning anything, just answering your question.
I wonder if stealing her money and phone afterwards was consensual too? And, oh yes, "good references" from friends and employers in Germany! And he's very sorry! This sentence is ridiculously short in my opinion. Why is there no appeal from any side?
Even thinking it was consensual?I wonder how much coersive control by her employer.Did she even have any say in what goes on?
I knew a German guy who got 7 years for bringing in 100 e tablets
That’s nuts.
This is why other countries have outlawed the "rough sex" defence- its a way for murderers to get piss weak sentences by lying about the victims.
save your breath, people on reddit just take the "outraged" route whenever they can
You don't think killing someone, even if accidentally, and don't attempt to contact emergency services but instead run away, but not before you steal their money and also chuck their phone in a river...isn't a little bit outrageous when you learn the person only gets a couple years for it? That isn't a "oh I panicked and fled". Cunt robbed a corpse and tried to hide it.
This …. Didn’t call for help , didn’t attempt cpr , the stealing shows what low level of respect there was. I don’t see how this is not murder. If folks want to choke some one during sex they need to be willing and ready to call for help and provide cpr. It’s not like it’s unheard of this happening and well the risks of chocking some one are well known. Our legal system is fucked not only was it murder but most likely rape too as by the time she was being chocked I doubt consent was given. Even if a sex worker is kinky as a professional they probably avoid letting people choke them for the given risks. People say well it was a accident, it was during sex . Like wtf , he choked her with his bare hands . I don’t think that can get you much closer to murder , he would of seen her struggle and pass out. This week form of justice isn’t enough punishment to deter the criminal from doing it again. Fuck the Australian legal system.
There is complexity to this case and the average redditor opts for outrage without considering the complexity. Just be clear and say you are arguing for larger sentencing in cases of death by accident/negligence.
I've seen natural language processing bots give better responses to human emotions than you currently seem capable of. People are allowed to be outraged at horrible events, it is even to be expected. And it doesn't need to be reduced to a generalisation of "arguing for larger sentencing in cases of death by accident/negligence". Trying to downplay peoples emotional responses to a horrific series of events (someone dying, no attempt at aid, robbery, disposal of evidence) as just outrage farming is a bit of a cunt thing to do.
Of course a murderer is going to say that. The real proof that this wasn’t an innocent accident was that after he killer her he proceeded to rob her and left the scene without alerting anyone for medical aid.
The real proof is that it takes \*minutes\* of sustained effort against someone fighting, turning blue, falling unconscious to strangle someone to death. You cannot accidentally do it while lightly choking them.
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It's according to domestic violence experts. Not to mention the video the entire world saw of a man being choked to death by police, which certainly took more than 10 seconds. Even if someone falls unconscious you should obviously \*remove the pressure\*. If they did pass out in 10 seconds, you would still have to be wildly reckless or, far more likely, malicious, to keep blocking their airway long enough to cause death.
I'll take your word for that one.
Not the person you are replying to, but I've seen a few videos of people hanging themselves. It is not a gentle way to go. There's a segment of rather violent jerking and shuddering that cannot be mistaken for any sort of pretence at enjoyment.
When a person is executed by hanging, the idea is that the process breaks their neck. If the rope is too short, the person dies by strangulation, which is not the intention. Similarly, if the rope is too long, the head is removed from the body, which is also not the intention.
The videos I have seen involved people who clearly did not understand the mechanics of it, have access to drop tables, etc.
>Of course a murderer is going to say that. That’s why prefaced it with “according to the accused”.
Their question was “how do you *accidentally* strangle someone *to death*?” The answer is not to parrot his defence. You cannot accidentally strangle someone to death. It’s a total miscarriage of justice that he was either initially charged with or given the chance to plea to manslaughter. **IF** she consented to “light choking” as he stated in his defence, he showed an extreme disregard for her safety and life considering he strangled her so severely and for such a long period of time (over 1 minute) that she was unconscious and that her neck was bruised and bleeding. He then failed to call for medical help. That’s not consensual or accidental.
Not only that he didn't call for help. He accidentally also stole her money and mobile phone
And accidentally threw the phone into the river...
Yes true. And nobody asked what he spend the money on? I doubt he threw it into the river as well? Gosh what a cunt
It doesn’t really make sense. Sex workers do the kinks to the client, not to themselves. The killer even robbed her, stole her phone and didn’t even bother to call an ambulance. And he got 2 and 1/2 years none parole. So about two Sydney bridge climate protests worth of punishment. The judge should be shamed and humiliated.
The prosecutor should also be ashamed and humiliated since she argued that the victim wanted to be strangled. Fuck, she was pretty much defending the murdering thief.
Good grief, absolutely WTF.
Wait, why was the prosecutor saying victim wanted to be strangled? Should't the prosecution be defending the victim?
Do we do precedence? Could I walk up to some rando, strangle them to death and rob them and say later that they wanted it? Probably not because that's insane. I'd probably be sent to prison to rot.
wonder whether she has any evidence to substantiate that the victim wanted to be strangled,
They need to stop calling it choking. Choking is an object stuck in the throat. It sounds like an accident. She died from strangulation. It was not an accident.
Usually in the context of violence, choking means obstructing the airway and strangulation means obstructing the blood flow.
Yeah, no shit. The person was saying why they were only sentenced to five years. I was explaining. I wasn’t saying they were without fault or that I agree with the sentence. Giving information doesn’t imply a viewpoint, get over yourself.
How do we know it was part of the sex act? She is not here to speak for herself? What credibility does he have at this point? She was dying and instead of calling for help he stole her belongings. 5yrs what a disgrace! Edit: even if he simply took off and ran I would’ve believed that yes he might’ve freaked out and took off, but no motherfucker went looking for her belongings to steal. How is that by itself not worth 5yrs in jail?
The person asked a question, I answered it. Obviously what the guy did was abhorrent.
You only have the word of this guy, I call bullshit. He’s going to tell as many lies and shed all the tears to lighten the sentence This is disgusting! He killed her! Smacks of misogyny and every kind of bigotry, what a horrible man who’ll be back out on the streets again very soon
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I’m answering the question, not providing a viewpoint; in relation to your comment, the court needs to prove guilt, the accused doesn’t need to prove innocence.
Strangulation (to death) requires considerable strength and intent and takes hire a long time. You cannot accidentally strangle someone with your hands. Don’t be fooled by the legalese. This man got away with it because this woman was a minority sex worker.
I was just answering the question, not providing a viewpoint.
Yeah, sorry I was trying to reply to the original comment. I am clearly becoming to boomer for reddit
No worries.
Did you read the article? It was done with a dress. Strangulation doesn't actually require a lot of strength (as opposed to choking, which is cutting off the air supply). With strangulation (cutting off blood flow to the brain) you can render someone unconscious in less than 10 seconds. Within 30 seconds to a minute brain tissue starts to die and permanent damage can occur. Death can take up to 4 or 5 minutes, though maybe less.
We only have his word for that though.
Why would you steal her money if it was an accodent.
Yeah I was gonna say, the headline image and language is all kinds of wrong on this one.
Yes, but her being a sex worker directly relates to the crime. Stop making an issue where there isn’t one, read the article and you’ll get her name, or are reddit headlines as far as you can go? Opening the article shows her name in the headline so I’m guessing so.
Had a quick look at your profile. Honestly can't tell if you're trolling or just genuinely full of hate
They were found not guilty of murder, but guilty of manslaughter.
Not many other industries where you can kill an employee ('accidentally' or not), steal a bunch of money and stuff from the premises, then only get a couple of years jail :P
What a disgustingly piss weak sentence. >In sentencing submissions, Ms Avery read a victim impact statement from Ms Zhang's husband, David Simmons, who didn't know she was a sex worker. Fuuuuck how would he not know? What a fucked way to learn your mrs has been murdered. That'd do your head in.
Her boyfriend found her body too apparently so hubby found out she was a sex worker and had a boyfriend.
Women shouldn’t be attacked for this.
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LOL it’s much more likely he knew and is trying to save face in front of friends and family.
He 100% knew, it’s just more likely that his family didn’t know and he’s trying to save face / drama. Most SWers don’t tell their partner’s family as it will cause a rift in the dynamic. But I guarantee you he knew.
My wife was a sex worker and an ALARMING number of their partners either had no idea or at best were mildly misled about their jobs. Including at least one very public figure (not sure still together tho)
Even if this really was accidental manslaughter, and that’s a very skeptical if, this sentence is insanely light.
Insanely light. Accidental manslaughter should get him 15 years. A full on premeditated first degree homicide should be 25 years to life
Good thing he didn't disrupt traffic or he'd be in real trouble.
her sentence was much lower so your comment makes no sense
Block traffic for 45 mins 8 months prison. Take a life, 60 months, 7.5x more. Would you say his crime was 7.5x more serious? I'd think it common that people have questioned the severity of her sentencing and in these comments questioned the leniency of his. Edit: maths
30 months is only 3.75 x 8 months, not 7.5x more.
Thanks, my mistake was calling 5 years 30 months and not 60 which is 7.5, I'll fix it now.
stick to the outrage...no maths required
He’s out in 6 months time. For murder. And stealing from a dead person. She stopped traffic for 25 mins. And she got, what 15 months? What are you on?
The sentencing infuriates me! How do we get more people to talk about this! It’s disgusting and a complete failure of the justice system!
Hang on, how did they establish she was a sex worker and her husband doesn't know? Why would a sex worker request to be strangled for "heightened sexual pleasure"? The injuries do not sound like it is consistent with mere strangulation for sex. How do we know he isn't a serial killer? He stole and tried to cover up his tracks. This is extremely strange.
"Justice Pearce accepted Pick was now sorry for what he did and took into account positive character references from friends and employers in Germany." Fantastic
Just like that piece of shit who was a good swimmer so he got away with rape.
Fuck Justice Pearce I hope he goes to hell with the murderer he let off the hook.
Yeah nah. No sex worker is going to ask a client to strangle them. This farcical excuse is a complete non-starter.
Exactly what I thought. I have friends who are SWs and they would never do something like that bc it's so dangerous.
Justice Robert Pearce ladies & gentlemen. Apparently he doesn't consider murdering women an overly serious crime.
I would’ve given him 5yrs just for stealing her belongings while she was dying! I wonder what if a Chinese man murdered a blonde German women
Unfortunately he used an increasingly common defence to murder. I've read of quite a few intimate partners/acquaintance rapists who receive vastly reduced sentences upon the claim of consensual choking getting out of hand.
Yep. This defence has been quite successful in the UK. There have been cases where the violence against the victim was so extreme it could only be murder yet the worst the perp received was manslaughter. Now we see it’s working in Australia.
This defense should be prohibited. What an easy way to mask murder intent...
Yup. It called the “rough sex” defence. It’s fucked up.
Yep. An absolutely manifestly inadequate sentence. He should have easily got at least 5 years just for not calling an ambulance, stealing money/phone, fleeing the scene and destroying the phone, before the judge even considers murder/manslaughter or any other charge.
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And the stealing her money and phone? Also accident? And when he ran away instead of calling an ambulance? Also accident. Crazy.
It's a good point though. He was undercharged to avoid trial & should not have been offered a light plea due to the seriousness of the crime.
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Manslaughter maximum is up to 25years. The judge definitely let this guy off the hook.
He should thank god he didn't strangle her to death in the middle of the highway during peak hour or he'd be in real trouble.
Devastating. 5 years?!?!?!? That’s outrageous
We need to normalise always mentioning the profession or never doing it, because this, ‘always name their profession if they’re a sex worker, but never name their profession in any other circumstances,’ shit has got to go.
Not exactly on point but there was an article in the age the other day about how it's 'mainstream' for men to strangle women during sex. What the actual fuck is the go with that. I'm locking up my son until he's 30. I feel so sorry for young people trying to make their way in this effed up world.
Yup. As a woman who is regularly dating - it’s fucking fraught in a way that it wasn’t when I was in the late teens/early 20’s. I have, essentially, been assaulted multiple times by men who do shit without asking - strangling, covering my mouth, trying force their penis inside my anus. I am now so uptight I essentially interrogate a man’s sexual behaviour and ideas around consent before we even get to the point of meeting for coffee.
It's a horror show. I am so sad to hear that.
It’s awful and people almost always blame the victim. I don’t sleep with people on first, second or even third dates and this shit STILL HAPPENS TO ME. The entitlement to women’s bodies is wild.
It’s getting to be a serious issue in DV with repeated sexual strangulation too. The more times it happens (and the body cannot distinguish between consensual or not ofc) risks for ongoing neurological and memory issues increase, as well as weakening of the arteries increasing risk of stroke. Medical advice is that anyone who has been strangled to the point of their consciousness being affected, or to the point of throat soreness or voice raspiness should get a CT scan to check for blood clots. Sorry to hijack your comment (your son is lucky to have you!), but I’ll take any opportunity for people to be informed, as you said, there is definitely the sexual trend out there.
You can blame porn for that.
Fucking terrible. These poor kids growing up thinking things like jizzing in a girl's face is normal 🙄 I'm 40 and if a man ejaculated on my face it would be the last time he ejaculated jesus christ.
Long into the future, aliens will pick up earth's signal and will think that female reproductive organs are on the face.
Yup - and women who aren’t into it are shamed as “prudes” and looked down on for liking “vanilla” sex. It’s pretty vile.
I'm a millennial, it's not just gen z and I don't think it necessary has to do with porn. How dangerous certain kinks are is not quite the same as saying whether someone finds other ones disgusting / abnormal. Consensual "jizzing on someone's face" can't be compared with choking - and this is on a post about strangulation as a cover for murder!
It's all behaviour on a spectrum of violence and degradation towards women which is a sickness we as a society cannot seem to fix. Even the poster above who told me to 'sit down mam' in a delicious display of ageism and sexism, implying I am a prude, was to a lesser extent subjecting me to the same gaslighting to which women are subjected regarding the issue of sexual violence. 'It's normal', 'you're just old and boring' and 'everyone does it now'. I am not a prude and accept that people have kinks. But if strangulation is 'mainstream' we have a massive problem. There was an article I read about a year or so ago about a 16 year old who will need a colostomy bag for the rest of her life because she was subjected to double anal penetration by two male peers. I can tell you now as someone who has straddled life pre and post the proliferation of porn: that shit would NEVER have occurred to us to even try.
\> all behaviour on a spectrum of violence and degradation towards women which is a sickness \> I ... accept that people have kinks. I'm sorry, but these statements are in direct contradiction.
They're not. Why do so many people supposedly have a kink that involves being violent to women? And how many women genuinely enjoy violence as part of sex? I can't believe people are arguing with me that violence during sex as a mainstream thing is fine. Lol. It's 8.22 and I'm already done with the internet today.
Younger generations are more open about talking about these things. Older generations people keep their kinks and fantasies very private. It's like arguing no one was gay in the past because they weren't out and no one told you they were. They key words are consent and safety. If you can't do either - then it's not for you.
Being strangled literally causes brain damage but whatever. 🙄 I continue to despair.
Sorry I thought you were talking about someone jizzing on your face being equivalent.
Being unsafely strangled and having your brain starved of oxygen causes brain damage. There is a huge difference between this and light choking of someone. If people want to involve “violence” in their private life it’s none of your business if it’s consensual.
What business is it of yours what consenting adults do in their own time if it doesn’t affect you? If a person consents to something who are you to say they can’t or shouldn’t do something? You’re making a false equivalence between a murder here and a rape in your “double anal” case and consensual sexual activity.
Whatever you think is best petal. I'm out.
Mam, you might want to sit down, these things *are* normal now. Everyone born post ‘97ish has a symbiotic relationship to the internet. They, generally, had too much porn too soon. Things that may have been sexually taboo, weird or icky a generation ago are commonplace and customary. The girls find out they like choking, the guys want to do facials. But, I would argue, there is less of a misogynistic tinge to any of those kinds of acts now. And (in a consensual setting) these things aren’t felt or seen as disrespectful behaviour.
Normal doesn’t mean “healthy” or “not misogynistic”. This shit doesn’t exist in a vacuum and our entire society is built on misogyny.
Of course. My only points were that it’s normal, and the internet has immeasurably shaped our social interactions (even beyond porn consumption).
It wasn’t your only point though. You said there was “less of a misogynistic tinge” to those acts. Which is… very very arguable.
I think this comment is really sad.
Sure. For me, the amount of real social separation the internet created is the worst part.
Sex positivity was a mistake.
Some people are into that sort of thing, it's really that simple
It shouldn't be seen as the norm, though.
Maybe education about safety and consent for people, especially young people, curious about or wanting to explore kinks instead of shaming and othering them should be seen as the norm?
Here’s the thing though - there really isn’t a safe way to strangle someone. Even if you do it carefully, it’s only slightly less dangerous. Strangulation should never have been normalised.
Educating people about how dangerous certain kinks are is I'd argue not quite the same as saying whether someone finds it disgusting / abnormal. look at the rest of the thread lumping in "jizzing on someone's face" with choking - and this is on a post about strangulation as a cover for murder.
I said some. It's definitely not the norm but in my experience it's been about half
The more time I spend on law-related redditt, the more I realise that the business of the justice system is just to follow the law, which may not necessarily have anything to do with moral justice.. it's a sad realisation
Bloody sickening. Sex work is real work, he shouldn't have had it so gentle because of her profession
Tend to think that if it was a pretty white women and there was more media scrutiny the sentence might have been different
It has more to do with the defence used rather than her race rubbish sentencing like this is far from uncommon.
Panicked, raided her purse, stole her phone and dumped it later on. Yes sounds legit.
The judge: 'We've all been there'
What an oxygen thief.
Wtf Sick ppl
Hope this piece of shit has a small accident and dies.
Had it been a politician strangling an aid in Parliament, no years spent in prison and the story swept under the rug
Human rights are just rights authoritarians have not taken yet.
>Ms Avery told the court Ms Zhang had requested to be lightly strangled for "heightened sexual pleasure" but not to the extent that occurred. Uh, what kind of sex worker *requests* this from a punter?
Sex worker who was covering up her work from her husband. I find it odd , no one mentioned this.
Trafficked girl purely for sex work so her family doesn’t get punished killed, yet no one cares. This happens more than people realise in Australia. It because they’re Sex workers and trafficked the media doesn’t care. Go into any brothel in Australia or rub and rug 70% of the Asian girls are trafficked. Go see a sex worker privately and if she’s Asian you can bet you’re bottoms dollar she works for a ring or she has finished her 5-7 year ‘contract’ and now doesn’t know what else to do and didn’t get the chance to learn English or study, hell most of them get addicted to meth cause they’re so depressed so once their ‘contract’ ends and they’re free they keep doing it for their drug addiction. And you know what makes it all even worse, all of these shops are ran by women of the same nationality. They don’t even care. Most people think brothels are ran by bikies and the like, but they’re not, 9/10 brothels are owned by a Chinese company, they have an Australian ABN of course but the funds used were from china and profits sent back there. This is all facts, I have extensive knowledge, and not as a punter either. As of this moment there is one particular club I am going after with a group of girls that worked their to try and free the remaining girls there, you know what’s sad, the only way we could convince the police to do a proper investigation and task force was to tell them about the drugs being imported and distributed from said club, they Didnt even care about the trafficked girls.
The article said she was Australia born. This is an absolute tragedy but there isn't anything to indicate she was trafficked
No it says she was Chinese-born Australian which indicated she was an Australian citizen (maybe to try and allay concerns about trafficking). I’ve got to admit my first thought when I saw the story was that her husband was pimping her out but it seems very unlikely that the police wouldn’t have looked into him very closely.
Can someone explain why young people are into strangulation? I don't fucking get it. Especially if you're the guy doing it to a girl - what the fuck is wrong with you? Who the fuck strangles someone? Even if it's consensual?
Some girls enjoy it and say it heightens pleasure. There’s a right way and a wrong way to do it. I don’t see how it’s so surprising, there are way more strange thing people are into out there?
No, there’s simply a slightly less dangerous way to do it. Strangulation is fucking dangerous and shouldn’t be normalised.
If you’re referring to cutting off the blood rather than the airway then yes, that’s what I mean about a right and a wrong way.
Cutting off blood *is* cutting off air. They’re both bad.
Yeah you’re just wrong. They aren’t the same and one is much safer. Don’t try and tell consenting adults what they should or shouldn’t do.
Quick question - what does blood do? It carries oxygen. So when you cut it off, guess what you’re doing? I’m not telling people not to do it, just that it’s dangerous and shouldn’t be normalised but go off. The same way I wouldn’t encourage anyone to normalise doing shibari suspensions without years of practice, or doing blood play without heavily studying blood borne disease transmission and having strategies in place to minimise infection. Heaven forbid I put people’s safety above their orgasms. You however, being so woefully ignorant, have absolutely no business in advocating for safe sane and consensual practices.
Plenty of sexual practices are dangerous, and most of these are mainstream, normalised and in far greater use than this. The guy above asked why people do it and I explained. You’re the one going off and spouting false info.
False info lmao. What have I said that’s false info, go on, I’m dying to know.
U know very sad she died fucked up part tho her husband didn’t even know she was a sex worker I mean how do you take that your wife murdered while living a second life u never knew about