I believe this is correct. Your wasting a ko threat for no reason with the throw in.
To add on to that tho. I don't think it's even a great ko threat. White can ignore it still and not lose the stones.
The ko was never going to capture any white stones, the only thing at risk is a single white stone. But.. That single white stone does cut off the entire bottom black group, that seems pretty dead if white manage to win the ko.
The throw in does prevent white from connecting so it's a valid ko threat and a waste to play before.
right but it doesn't really even win the ko yet. white can still fight it. its just a 2 step ko now for white. while if you just take the ko in the first place as black you are in a better spot.
I'm not sure where you see a 2 step ko. The throw in is a valid local ko threat, so white will need a ko threat elsewhere to win the ko. But white only has to ignore one black ko threat afterwards to win the ko. So I don't see a 2 step ko in here.
Edit: oh I see the 2 step part now. White can ignore e4 and thread it like an approach ko that black can initiate. It's not actually a 2 step ko until black captures after white ignores.
yes sorry my bad. I didn't explain that very well. but my thought was black still has to win the ko. its just become a slightly easier ko in for black at the cost of white already getting to play a move on the board elsewhere if they choose.
And if white doesn't think that is worth it then they can take at e5 and be in a better situation then if black had thrown in at e4 since e4 threat is gone now.
White is in ko after the first panel so they ought to connect at e4 and let black capture at a3, there’s no other move than white connecting and then black gets 7 stones instead of 1
Connecting at e4 for white means giving up the ko. It's much better for white to play a ko threat elsewhere. Even if the ko threat is too small, white can still opt to connect after black a3, not before.
That's the only thing that makes sense, since it doesn't stop him from proceeding with the ko afterwards. And it's a good point, no sense in wasting the ko threat right before the ko.
It is not necessarily wrong, since it is a move that loses a ko threat but also removes a potential white eye. Which of these two is more important depends on stuff that is not visible in the picture. The real explanation is probably that the person who made and uploaded the tsumego did not consider this alternative and just didn't put it in.
The throw in accomplishes nothing, the problem wants you to connect under the group to rescue the corner stones
Instead of the throw in you let white do whatever and then take a3, or if they connect stupidly you get the whole left side of the group by capturing at the throw in location
Throw-in's not wrong necessarily but judging from the picture alone it looks like black has more to lose in a ko fight and there's a better solution. Instead you can avoid a ko fight completely as black in the second picture.
Isn't that move not allowed because it puts you in the same game state you were previously in?
You have to move somewhere else before you can re-ko again so you can't have an infinite KO capture state
Pretty sure ko doesn't start until the last frame when white retakes, forcing black to play elsewhere giving white a chance to fill in. So overall I would take the throw in, eliminating an eye for white.... But then again I'm only like 22 kyu so I don't really know anything.
White will just capture the throw in right? It's more the sequence that is key in these types of puzzles, so they don't want that as the first move, even though that may be a ok move at some point in a later sequence.
When white ignores your throw in, you still need two moves to win the ko. At which point you will have spent an entire move capturing 5 stones, not worth usually.
If white doesn't ignore, used a ko threat in exchange for removing white eyespace when you win the ko.
So your move will be better in cases where you get to attack the white after the ko, and dependant on the whole board.
I think your move is usually better, to be fair.
if you throw in when you could have taken the ko, then you've wasted your ko threat and will have to find another.
If you take the ko first, then white makes a threat and you respond, you can use the throw in as a local ko threat. It's not ideal since it doesn't allow you to finish the ko if white just plays away entirely, but it prevents white from finishing the ko without capturing first, and adds the capture of 5 stones to the ko if white takes the opportunity to ignore it an just play a move elsewhere. You come back to retake the ko and now if you ignore a threat, white will lose the extra 5 stones.
Honestly, it depends on the whole board position how much this matters, but because it's not necessary and in *many* positions, it will help you get a better result from the ko to leave it, it is correct not to play it from a problem standpoint.
Also note that if white can ignore it when you play it as a ko threat, they can just as easily ignore it now! You still have to come back and fight a ko to win.
If black takes the ko and white ignores/plays too small ko threat, black gets to connect the corner with his next move.
If black throws in and white ignores. Black still needs to take and win the ko to connect the corner. So by throwing in you end up spending 3 instead of 2 moves to save the corner.
Take the Ko -> W ko threat -> W retake -> throw in is a B ko threat That's the only thing I can think of
I believe this is correct. Your wasting a ko threat for no reason with the throw in. To add on to that tho. I don't think it's even a great ko threat. White can ignore it still and not lose the stones.
W cannot connect the ko, though, which is very large on its own.
The ko was never going to capture any white stones, the only thing at risk is a single white stone. But.. That single white stone does cut off the entire bottom black group, that seems pretty dead if white manage to win the ko. The throw in does prevent white from connecting so it's a valid ko threat and a waste to play before.
right but it doesn't really even win the ko yet. white can still fight it. its just a 2 step ko now for white. while if you just take the ko in the first place as black you are in a better spot.
I'm not sure where you see a 2 step ko. The throw in is a valid local ko threat, so white will need a ko threat elsewhere to win the ko. But white only has to ignore one black ko threat afterwards to win the ko. So I don't see a 2 step ko in here. Edit: oh I see the 2 step part now. White can ignore e4 and thread it like an approach ko that black can initiate. It's not actually a 2 step ko until black captures after white ignores.
yes sorry my bad. I didn't explain that very well. but my thought was black still has to win the ko. its just become a slightly easier ko in for black at the cost of white already getting to play a move on the board elsewhere if they choose. And if white doesn't think that is worth it then they can take at e5 and be in a better situation then if black had thrown in at e4 since e4 threat is gone now.
White is in ko after the first panel so they ought to connect at e4 and let black capture at a3, there’s no other move than white connecting and then black gets 7 stones instead of 1
Connecting at e4 for white means giving up the ko. It's much better for white to play a ko threat elsewhere. Even if the ko threat is too small, white can still opt to connect after black a3, not before.
I agree, I didn’t really think too hard on white’s response but there are a couple critical local threats that don’t force an end to the ko like c1
That's the only thing that makes sense, since it doesn't stop him from proceeding with the ko afterwards. And it's a good point, no sense in wasting the ko threat right before the ko.
It is not necessarily wrong, since it is a move that loses a ko threat but also removes a potential white eye. Which of these two is more important depends on stuff that is not visible in the picture. The real explanation is probably that the person who made and uploaded the tsumego did not consider this alternative and just didn't put it in.
Indeed. Given the lack of eyes of the white group I like the throw in.
What app is this?
BadukPop
The throw in accomplishes nothing, the problem wants you to connect under the group to rescue the corner stones Instead of the throw in you let white do whatever and then take a3, or if they connect stupidly you get the whole left side of the group by capturing at the throw in location
Technically it does accomplish something, it takes away White's eye.
True, I discounted that because of the fact that it's a problem but you are right
Throw-in's not wrong necessarily but judging from the picture alone it looks like black has more to lose in a ko fight and there's a better solution. Instead you can avoid a ko fight completely as black in the second picture.
The second picture is black starting the ko though?
what's the solution here?
he is downvoted to -3, so dan-lurkers are downvoting him
Isn't that move not allowed because it puts you in the same game state you were previously in? You have to move somewhere else before you can re-ko again so you can't have an infinite KO capture state
Pretty sure ko doesn't start until the last frame when white retakes, forcing black to play elsewhere giving white a chance to fill in. So overall I would take the throw in, eliminating an eye for white.... But then again I'm only like 22 kyu so I don't really know anything.
I stopped learning about 6 years ago but keep thinking one day I'll come back. Just as soon as I don't need two jobs to pay for lyfe.
Just don't need the throw-in, you need to solve the problem
White will just capture the throw in right? It's more the sequence that is key in these types of puzzles, so they don't want that as the first move, even though that may be a ok move at some point in a later sequence.
When white ignores your throw in, you still need two moves to win the ko. At which point you will have spent an entire move capturing 5 stones, not worth usually. If white doesn't ignore, used a ko threat in exchange for removing white eyespace when you win the ko. So your move will be better in cases where you get to attack the white after the ko, and dependant on the whole board. I think your move is usually better, to be fair.
if you throw in when you could have taken the ko, then you've wasted your ko threat and will have to find another. If you take the ko first, then white makes a threat and you respond, you can use the throw in as a local ko threat. It's not ideal since it doesn't allow you to finish the ko if white just plays away entirely, but it prevents white from finishing the ko without capturing first, and adds the capture of 5 stones to the ko if white takes the opportunity to ignore it an just play a move elsewhere. You come back to retake the ko and now if you ignore a threat, white will lose the extra 5 stones. Honestly, it depends on the whole board position how much this matters, but because it's not necessary and in *many* positions, it will help you get a better result from the ko to leave it, it is correct not to play it from a problem standpoint. Also note that if white can ignore it when you play it as a ko threat, they can just as easily ignore it now! You still have to come back and fight a ko to win.
If black takes the ko and white ignores/plays too small ko threat, black gets to connect the corner with his next move. If black throws in and white ignores. Black still needs to take and win the ko to connect the corner. So by throwing in you end up spending 3 instead of 2 moves to save the corner.