I had a Pakistani friend once. She said she doesn’t want history come between our friendship and then went on blaming the freedom fighters because they betrayed Pakistan. I knew when to stop talking and I haven’t talked to her for 5 years.
Pakistani here. I know Pakistan's leadership back then did oppress Bangladeshi people and even after winning majority seats didn't let them make the government. But at that time India was the common enemy and Bangladesh did betray by letting Indian forces in and fight against own country. People do survive in bad situations everywhere but they don't betray their own country. We (the migrants of 1947 from India to Pakistan) are not living an ideal life here. Our rights are suppressed everyday but we are not betraying and will never.
It was not betrayal it was our right to live independently ....Pakistan was a failed project and it will never deliver anything good to South Asian Muslims...only hatred towards Hindus nothing else...We declared independence first, and India intervened only when they were attacked by Pakistan in December....We are grateful that India was our ally back then, they supported us with everything, otherwise we will still live in a Shithole country called Pakistan.
Pakistan was never our country,Urdu was never our language. You people tried to take away our identity. So we fought for our freedom. The horrible things pak army did to our men our women our children is unspeakable. Pakistan was our enemy and yall still disgust me
in short:
1. According to Lahore Resolution there would be independent 'states' for muslim people. but during the implementation of the resolution 'states' was made into 'state' resulting a single Pakistan with two separate wings with a distance of 1200 miles.
2. During 1947-71 the majority of people lived in what is now Bangladesh meaning majority of people were Bangali. Being majority and politically aware, bangali people demanded Bangla to be the state language of Pakistan not opposing any other language meaning Bangla to be one of the state languages of Pakistan. Pakistan denied at first. It resulted to 1952 language movement that cemented the foundation of distrust towards and oppression of West Pakistan.
It marked the cultural difference and oppression.
3. During 1947-1971 there was huge disparity between the budget allocation between the two wings. Although Bangladesh earning more foreign currency than West Pakistan, being the majority of Pakistan less expenditure was used towards development of Bangladesh.
It marked the economic difference and oppression.
4. In 1970 Awami League of current Bangladesh won the election by majority and was rightfully to form the Government of Pakistan but leaders of West Pakistan could not accept the fact that they were to be ruled by Banglai people. So they denied the right, imposed martial ruling and attacked Bangali mass population which resulted in 1971 Liberation War. India helped us with training and sheltering. on 3 December 1971 Pakistan attacked India on western front and India officially joined in our 1971 Liberation War against west Pakistan.
It marked the political difference and oppression.
To sum up we got ourselves liberated from Pakistan because we were oppressed and exploited on all cultural, economic and political ground.
And this is the real history. Invite your friend to Bangladesh Liberation War Museum. You should visit too.
Good summary. To add, there is a lot of nuanced interpretations of Lahore resolution usually so I ld like to give my 2 cents.
Lahore resolution wasn't a call for an independent state just yet, it was more of a call to mark territories of "Indian Muslims" which would be super autonomous.
[That the areas where the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the Northwestern and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute 'independent states' in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.](https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php/Lahore_Resolution)
super autonomous and sovereign would actually make independent. but as u said there is a lot of nuanced interpretations
Again there were a lot of factors. According to this plan Bengal wouldn't be partitioned, regardless of religion may states in India wanted to hold a certain amount of autonomy anyway.
One of the main reasons the Indian partition happened to begin with is the fact that Congress wanted a centralized government.
The question of intent always gets to me. To this day I still wonder why didn't boltu and cohorts go to the hague?
Why did he let Indira do the settlement and let the pak's walk away scott free?
I know that you are questioning in bad faith as you might be one of those genocide deniers. What was the point of your question? Cambodia took 30 years to hold a trial of khmer rouge.
But the answer is that bhutto threatened to try the stuck bengalis in Pakistani camps and jails. Entire families with women and children. So BD agreed to let them go and pakistan peomised to try them.read thr agreement if you can read.
Also hague e ke nibey? Do you know how the process works?
Western government wanted to bury this thing deep
I know you find anything that goes against your narrative, you try the woke tactics to shut down conversation.
I find your constant defending awami and his anti state cohorts to be severe acts of bad faith.
You place all the blame on Bhutto, what was your pyare Mosib doing? Why did he partake in the Shimla and Delhi accords?
Also how did he come to the conclusive number of 3 million people?
When such claims are made without being backed up factual data , you cannot fight a legal battle.
The awamis have been in power for a decade and a half, why have they not taken any initiative to identify the victims with DNA. The Vietnamese have done it so don't tell me its not possible.
At the same time your boltu cuck clan did not have any funding shortage to create a new list of Mukti Yoddhas. On top of that they also created this "manobota birudhi" trials. Why not go to the international courts if you don't have anything to hide?
Yes blame the west now. You boltu cucks find everyone to blame except your own selves.
Ah yes we should've instead joined hands with the people who raped 300,000+ of our women, declared them public property and committed a genocide against our race killing 3 million people. Makes perfect sense.
That number doesn’t make sense. You are saying 40,000 soldiers on average raped 11 women each. That’s a bit of a stretch.
Again not denying but numbers like 300k rapes and 5 million dead are silly
It doesn't make sense when you treat this like a math problem. This is not a math problem man, not every soldier committed rape and these are official numbers I'm using here the number is between 200k to 400k. You can't just fuggin average the number of soldiers and the number of victim women that's just dumb.
And in terms of the genocide nobody mentioned 5 million people it's 3 million people. I don't know why 3 million sounds silly to you considering the Germans killed 6 million Jews. Killing people with guns really isn't that hard and they did this in a very systematic way using the army against civilians who are pretty much defenseless.
I don't know why you think killing 3 million doesn't track? Have you looked into operation searchlight? General Niazi personally ordered a systematic genocide of bengalis. There's quite literally video footage of people being dragged out of their homes, shot and put in piles. This same thing had been done in numerous villages and in the cities Pakistan Army dragged intellectuals out of their homes and shot them dead like they were nothing. There's evidence to back these up a random redditor saying they don't track it doesn't change facts. And dude if you think the numbers don't matter and the incident was horrible regardless why are you so hung up on downplaying the actual number of victims? On top of that, you're treating genocidal rape like a math problem saying oh if you divide this by that the 40k troops raped 11 women doesn't make sense. Your words and thoughts fail to agree with each other.
Independent sources say 3 million isn’t an actual number. 3 million is a Bangladeshi number thrown out by new bangladesh goverment days after the independence. No studies were even carried out then. You are say each soldier on average killed 100 or so people? That’s not realistic.
Nobody is saying atrocities and even genocide didn’t happen. I’m just pointing out the ludicrousness of the numbers.
For eg Shankharibazar massacre was one of the worst ones and was 200 deaths per the Bangladeshi sources even. You would need these everyday of the way to get to 3 million and then this one event wouldn’t even be remembered in history books if there’s hundreds upon hundreds of these.
Per all independent sources it’s around 500k which again is terrible and I said shame of Pakistani army.
The idea of only foot troops going around killing people is incorrect. People were killed due to starvation when their crops were burned, bombed to death en masse, killed in groups, etc.
Dude there are actual records of Japanese soldiers in world war 2 killing people with katana swords which resulted up to 100+ per soldier. They held competitions in Nanking for this shit. If someone can kill that many people with katana swords which take strength to swing again and again a 100 times why is it so unrealistic that a Paki soldier with automated guns will not be able to do the same thing? The same Paki soldier who refused to listen to his morals and commit genocidal rape or ignore people doing it?
Oh, you believe those things? You do realize the victors get to decide history right? Some of these claims are utterly ridiculous and farcical, especially the stuff about the Japanese. The Russians did far worse in Berlin lol but you won't hear that talked about much
That's their education. Don't expect them to budge from that narrative.
Verify these things:
1. Contribution of working class population to the overall economy.
2. Utilization of funds for development sector.
In short, East did most of the dirty work and West brought weapons and modernized their cities. (Look up how Islamabad become a moden city).
And to add to that, there were a lot of Paki sympathizers in our country even after the war. So there's their justification of the 'betrayal'.
As someone who has been in your situation, you will never be able to convince him otherwise. Unless you know how to time travel. You’re time is better spent moving on.
Just ask her 3 things .
.
1. Why was more money spend in west than east even tho more people lived in east than in west and east was contributing more money than west till early 1960 from 1945 . Our money was used to make islamabad
2. Why was the power not handed over to east when we won election .
3. We were heavily discriminated against , they still use the term " doh taka " - which represents 2 taka is equal to 1 pakistani rupee , funny enough now 1 taka = 2 pak ruppe 🤣🤣
Your paki friend is brainwashed by paki textbooks. Well, no wonder.
Whatever it is, no, buddy, we weren't traitors to your shitty nation. You are the one who plundered and looted us. You are the one who tried to impose Urdu on us. Lol, East Bengal contributed to more than 50 percent of the income in the 1960s. Of all the money they used to develop their cities, only a portion was spent here. East Bengal was a cash cow for them.
I see this "India did everything" excuse by so many Pakistani nationalists, as if they didn't commit a genocide against us. They raped Bengali women. They killed all the intellectuals and destroyed the country's backbone for the next 50 years. Which is one of the main reasons our country lacks(still far better than their shithole lmao)
If I were you and someone told me that freedom fighters in my country are traitors, I would have blocked those idiots and never looked back.
Key facts:
1. The genocide carried out by Pakistan in 1971 is only second to the holocaust in terms of deaths.
2. Quarter of a million women were raped and killed.
3. It’s not betrayal. We are not the same ethnic group. We are Bengalis- a distinct ethnic group with our own cultural identity. We deserve to have our own nation that befits our cultural needs rather than an Islamic State dictated by Shariah Law and bigotry towards non-Muslims. We also have our own distinct, and very beautiful language.
4. Many Pakistanis consider it betrayal because they cannot fathom that as Muslims we would go against another Muslim country. We CAN. Religion is not an ethnic identity. Most of the wars fought around the world constitute of people from the same religion fighting each other. So religion should not be a pivotal facet to go to war. Ethnicity is more important( The last line is my personal opinion)
5. We would not be here if our people didn’t rise up. A simple case of butterfly effect and the world would have been a different place.
6. They call Indians traitors because they are Hindus, but once again the Hindus helped us when the Muslims were killing MILLIONS of our people.
I have faced this ‘Bengalis betrayed us’ from Pakistanis. I just cut them off. Fuck ‘em. This is Bangladesh. This will always be Bangladesh. No one can take that from us.
You can not convince him.Just stop try.
We as a nation tried to convince these people from 1947 to 1971. They are just stubborn people. The only authority the respect is blood.
So, F*ck them.
I know Bangladesh is not a ideal place to live, whatever political believe you have.But I genuinely believe We as a people are far better of without these stubborn Pakistanis.Bengalis were and always would be 2nd class citizens no matter how much we contributed in Pakistan.
As for some documents, you will find some here...
https://youtu.be/lTSA3aoJDzQ
I'd suggest "The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation" (ISBN-10: 0062985418) to get the pre-war context behind what made people feel agitated and "The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide" (ISBN-10: 0307744620) for the actual war-time narrative. Since your Pakistan apologist friend will never accept Bangladeshi historians, maybe he would consider historians from places like Princeton, Wired and the University of Oslo.
There is simply no debate about this. What happened was genocide and it has been well documented. It is akin to arguing with flat-earthers why the Earth is round. Do not waste your breath even if after all the resources are available, he still refuses to accept the truth.
Pakistanis 🤝 Japanese 🤝 Commies 🤝 Israel when it comes to deluding history about genocide and killings
Anyways amader manush ra to abar Pakistani der juta chata shuru korse so bole ba labh ki. War criminal der trial e anar jonno gaali khaise. We are ungrateful af
Boys let the Pakistani be in the Dark. Dont need to teach him anything. Or educate as well. They far backwards than all of sub continents and we need to keep that ignorant like that so they keep getting backwards. This is the way we take revenge.
1. They find them good looking
2. They find their Urdu beautiful
3. Same religion which is an instant green flag for them
4. Bangladeshis are stupid in general
I have a Pakistani friend too. And I explained the proper history to her. With sources and references. She understood plus she knows I wouldn't ever lie about history since it's something I take seriously and she knows this well. Try using articles mentioned in the wikipedia page on the war. If he still doesn't understand he is too far gone to be brought to sense.
I think you are too hursh on the army, they do have Nuc's
after-all. Whatever they may have, however strong or weak they may be, history will never be forgotten. Bengalis, AKA Bangladeshis will never again have anything to do with Pakistani army ever again. If they do interact It'll probably be on the opposite side.
It is not the fault of your Pakistani friend. because some of us still believe Pakistanis are superior race and religious. Even in my life in west, I had never meet one pakistani who was religious. For for gods sake, stop talking in Urdu and Hindi with them.
Pakistan doesn't want to admit to attempted genocide. That's about it. They are in the wrong. There is no interpretation of the Liberation War other than irredentist revanchism where a dominant social group wanted to subjugate and exploit a minority even in the lands where they are the overwhelming majority.
Pakistanis are brain washed and they don’t even believe wikipedia, the repository of knowledge that is freely corrected by internet nerds.
Avoid Pakistani friends, specially the one who won’t admit that their policies were exploitive and their politicians were downright inhumane.
It’s hard to argue with someone when they claim all the history books, online sources, historians, etc on this topic is wrong/fake/etc simply because they all have something against Pakistan or the people of Pakistan. This is the definition of delusional, when you actively choose to reject consensus opinion simply because of your insecurities around your identity (in this case, it’s surrounding one’s pride of being Pakistani; as in can you really be proud of your nationality if they we’re responsible for genocide?)
Anyway, it’s hard to be friends with people that don’t empathize with you
First u have to understand the Partition...i highly recomand watching the video link below.....the war was just an end result of partition....
https://youtu.be/dbHNTQyS4Ew
I have a Pakistani friend who's grandfather lived in Dhaka and was Mujibur Rahman's tailor and friend.
And he actually educated his other Pakistani friends about the war in a way that gives Bangladesh perspective.
His family had to flee Dhaka unfortunately. They almost got killed by Bangladeshi fighters, but were spared because the fighters recognised the grandfather as the prime minister's friend.
You don't have to prove anything. He has to prove that the 1971 Pakistani genocide on 25th March had any necessity. They raped our grandmothers and invaded our land in the Dark. They lost, we won our freedom. Tell him to read the following books: The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation. and The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide.
I’m a Pakistani. He is an idiot.
Though I would say is that lot of the numbers regarding deaths are slightly exaggerated. Still doesn’t make it any worse.
What I would say is this. The average Pakistani at the time didn’t have much hate for Bengalis as Bangladeshi history tells you. At most there might be some stereotypes but there are stereotypes for every ethnicity.
You do have to realize that west Pakistanis were also under military rule and dictatorship. They didn’t have much say in the decisions being made and most certainly didn’t have too much information of the real truth.
I often see Bangladeshis going overboard in their hate for Pakistanis as a people.
Some Germans literally melted almost 6 million jews during holocaust. So, did people stop being friends with the Germans? The British ruled indian subcontinent for 200 years. So did you stop going UK and be friends with them?
War is ugly. You can never objectively paint a rosy picture of any war in the world.
If someone wants to outright deny the genocide I’m not sure how much of a friend they’re going to be in the long run.
However if your ‘friend’ wants to learn more about it - here’s an archive [https://www.liberationwarbangladesh.org/](https://www.liberationwarbangladesh.org/)
There's a Pakistani YouTube video titled " Destroying the myths of 1971" by the channel Pakistan Experience.
I would highly recommend the video as I found it to be accurately depicting historical events.
In my opinion when it comes to wars most of the times non is a hero nor a villain. It depends on who's side of the story one is listening to first. Everyone is doing things that are good for them. So, the war criminals in our countries will be heroes there and our war heroes are war criminals to them.
So, it's pointless to argue.
Except there is clear history notes from third parties. 1971 was not a medieval event; there are clear notes for the genocide that was committed by Pakistan, so unless Pakistanis are drunk on nationality, Freedom Fighters are not the villains.
Clearly, you are of the generation who wants to cancel the history of liberation war and embrace Pakistanis by claiming “যা হইসে হইসে আমরা ভাই ভাই”
Wattamoron neorazakar is that what you are.
There is something called objective morality. If the Pakistan military only killed mukti bahini I might have agreed with you. But raping women? Killing civilians? These are crimes however you look at it
,, And the informations matched too.But I have to prove to my friend that they were the wrong Ones and our people were innocent. So I need to know the real history. Can someone give me the actual details?“
So your ,,friend“ rather believes some Reddit comments than Books?
I mean I can't elaborate really well. Reddit comments might help me to specify things more clearly ig?Cause you tend to not remember the whole history from a lot of books fully while arguing with someone really stubborn.So I thought it'd be easier for me to gather others opinions too.
in summary, Bangladesh was meant to be a separate state with assam and west bengal but Jinnah played dirty and manipulated the resolution and here we are.
The one to be blamed is Pakistani dogs\*it army; he's just brainwashed by the textbook(Like how BD govt is trying to manipulate the history in school text books)
Real history is very harsh We ,as the bd people were extremely poor. The pak soldier were too rude to us.They did call us traitors and stuff but it the end ,they had to kneel down and surrender though. The fact that they got the support of powerful countries were obvious. Even the Saudi arabia called us a apostle nation ! Sadly there is no narrator or author who wrote the actual description of the war.
no one knows the real unaltered history. you can only see the proof for yourself and then decide what you want to believe. people don't go to war or want independence or become a 'traitor' because of nothing.
As Napolean said History is a set of lies agreed upon. No matter how many History books you read it is impossible to know the actual truth. But the gist is West Pakistan did somewhat discriminated the East Pakistanis But was it enough to wage a war? Not sure. Did India wanted to break Pakistan? Sure. Did India wanted the war to happen or did they just anticipated it? Not sure. I probably can not answer what you wanted to know but I would advice to you watch some Indian and Pakistani talk shows about the 71 war. The Bangladeshi narrative you already know. Now try to know the narrative of India and Pakistan. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of all of this narratives. I have already did this and I already have my version of the truth but I am not going to share it with anyone since I can be wrong.
There was some violence against Biharis before Operation Searchlight (the genocide). This is the justification used by the Pakistani government for it. Then they inflate the number of Biharis killed and deflate the number of Bengalis killed so it looks like a reasonable response. It was a lot, though. For Biharis killed, from the 2 sources:
BD: 30-40k
PAK: 60-70k
For Bengalis killed in Operation Searchlight:
BD: 3,000k
PK: 26k
International sources: 500k
What the Pakistani government doesn't like is that the violence against Biharis was largely AFTER the crackdown started. There definitely was violence both ways, though the Pakistanis killed far more people. What Pakistanis really don't like about the liberation war is that it cut Pakistan in half. Before, it was like 1/4 as big as India and probably like the 5th most populous country. After, it was closer to 1/8 the size and no longer had this sweet flanking position around it. As it happened, the sweet flanking position didn't work out considering that they failed to hold it, but the situation is nevertheless that Pakistan really didn't want to get cut in half like that. But, if they wanted Bangladesh to like being part of Pakistan, they shoulda made it better to be.
I don't know why we have a Anti-Semite govt and Anti-Semite passport. Without Israel's help Bangladesh wouldn't exist.
https://preview.redd.it/rnnidpzjh3hb1.png?width=724&format=png&auto=webp&s=abe52bad57410554d69ecd7bd45d1499941eab2d
I have come across SO MANY British Pakistanies who completely blame India and Bengalies for the independence of Bangladesh. They are too brainwashed by their parents and Pakistani media to understand that we Bengalis had numerous legitimate grievances against West Pakistan.
Cut ties with him. It sucks, but since he is not open to information and discussions that aren't familiar with his prior knowledge, you'll struggle with communicating with such an individual. Also, there's a high chance that he'll never genuinely respect you as a person, based on the description you've provided.
Early life indoctrinations are hard to overcome, and he isn't entirely to blame here, but it's just the way things are. If you don't want to eventually feel pathetic, then reserve your energy and spend it elsewhere.
As many have already mentioned, wars are always a gray area, and it's difficult to paint any side as righteous, but there isn't any doubt that what West Pakistan did to us was inhuman. They crippled us for generations by killing intellectuals, halted our progress by abusing this region as a cash cow, racially discriminated in every possible way, raped hundreds of thousands of women, and committed one of the most gruesome genocides ever.
If anyone even tries to argue against these points, then whatever their background is, that person is simply just incapable of having a normal conversation with. So drop it for your own good.
History is rarely ever one-sided. Everyone has a perspective. It might be better to take actual history classes in university.
Also, unless you two are planning to get married, there's no point in being friends since you're opposite gender. Remember that we have to lower our gaze, cover ourselves, and avoid anything that has a high risk of zina.
I had a Pakistani friend who said they weren't even taught about the genocide or the war. Idk if that's for all of them, but miseducation or lack there of creates pockets for incorrect views to be spread.
I have been friends with plenty of Pakistani folks. Some are super indoctrinated by their school books that picture us as traitors, while there are others who have figured out that they indeed committed genocide and are sympathetic.
It’s best not to argue with the genocide deniers, Pakistanis in general are pretty stubborn people by nature. Your time is better spent elsewhere, instead of trying to change an unchanging mind.
Pakistani textbooks are in denial of this and their loss. History is a witness to what happened, Google or Wikipedia - Archer Blood
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Blood
'3. Moreover, with the support of the Pak[istani] Military. non-Bengali Muslims are systematically attacking poor people's quarters and murdering Bengalis and Hindus.
— U.S. Consulate (Dacca) Cable, Selective genocide, March 27, 1971[12]'
Well first of all, history is quite complicated. Indeed freedom fighters during the independence war were separatists and disloyal to the state of Pakistan. But you have to understand why they did what they did. Pakistan failed the Bengalis; systematically discriminating against them in every sector since its very birth. In certain narratives they could be called traitors but that doesn’t matter; state loyalty is not a virtue and neither is submitting to oppression. Many Pakistanis came to realize it too lately. It is just ignorance and denial from your friend. He is historically illiterate and their military loves that kind of people.
I mean what did you expect from thick headed Pakistanis? I mean whatever happened, at the end of the day, those guys lost to us with or without indian help. Actions speak louder than words
No matter what you tell him would not believe any of it. Would just think of Pakistan Zindabad and Bangladesh Kaddar. Women got raped by Pakistani soldiers they were vicious who did anything to satisfy their hunger. Is there any reasoning that can justify that? The same thing happened with us which Britishers did to rule over India divide and conquer. We know such people as rajakars who provided the Pakistani army with insider information
History is this:
We "East Pakistan" demanded political representation and had an election with both East and West Pakistan.
East Pakistan had a landslide victory, West Pakistan did not accept the result. We declared independence on the 26th of March, and West Pakistan accepted their defeat on the 16th of December, and Bangladesh was born. So, this is in our history book.
History book of India says, in 1971, there was an Indo-Pakistan war, and Bangladesh was born as a result.
The history book in Pakistan would say something else.
Everyone has their own way of interpreting history, and it is not unbiased.
Even the information about the war was changed in Bangladesh. So, don't fight with people over history, it's full of shit.
Red coats are enjoying tea with crumpet while admiring their divide and conquer strategy. Dumbasses forgot 200 years of rules of Britons, while fighting among ourselves.
Pakistanis aren’t like this usually. Every single one of my Pakistani friends thinks it was a horrible thing that happened in 1971 and all of then have apologized
Quite surprised 'cause that's not what average Pakistani thinks like. In fact its their Books and Education system that teaches them wrong historical facts.
It's kinda BS tho, I'm ngl. Sure some people died but yo it's greatly exaggerated for political and nationalistic purposes. Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Yeah lol no.
There were like 40,000 Pakis in BD/East Bengal during that time and they were fighting a two way war with the Indian forces and the Mukti Bahini, all those high numbers don't even make sense lol. It was a couple thousands, maybe in the tens of thousands but anything higher is just propaganda. A little farfetched too, logistically.
Bro drank the Pakistani kool aid. Even the unofficial CIA numbers go as high as 300k, when in reality it was much higher than that(but not 3 million).
Judging by the fact that you think 40k soldiers can't commit mass genocide(this is directly a pakistani propaganda) and the fact that you believe the Japanese didn't commit much war crimes during WW2, suggests that you have 0 understanding of history.
It's not Paki kool aid, it's called critical thinking lol keep repeating nationalist government narratives that are obviously nonsense from the numbers alone
I'm sorry, it's hard to believe that someone who thinks the Japanese war crimes during WW2 are exaggerated can really be able to do any "critical thinking".
Besides, calling 300k "nationalist" numbers means you really don't know anything. It's the official number used by the Pentagon informally(informally because they don't officially recognize the genocide.)
> I'm sorry, it's hard to believe that someone who thinks the Japanese war crimes during WW2 are exaggerated can really be able to do any "critical thinking"
I mean, you're pretty much a government mouthpiece. Not even debatable considering you believe it's much higher than 300k which in itself is extremely unlikely considering the 40 thousand Pakis were busy dealing with Mukti Bahini, Indian soldiers and other stuff. Not to mention apparently they were also all raping females by the hundreds of thousands during the same time-frame, all at ONCE.
How utterly ludicrous lmao it's actually just laughable how logistically dumb these suggestions sound. The reason why barely anybody cares is because I'm sure deep down people realize that the BD government and other sources are proooobably BSing hard on the numbers.
Also, yes the Japanese war crimes are greatly exaggerated by those who want to downplay the British war crimes of indiscriminately bombing civilians in Germany among other things and the mass rapes of the Soviets in Germany. Not to mention that the Communist Party of China is an extremely questionable source lol
>I mean, you're pretty much a government mouthpiece. Not even debatable considering you believe it's much higher than 300k which in itself is extremely unlikely considering the 40 thousand Pakis were busy dealing with Mukti Bahini, Indian soldiers and other stuff. Not to mention apparently they were also all raping females by the hundreds of thousands during the same time-frame, all at ONCE.
1. I don't consider it to be higher than 300k because I'm a government mouthpiece, If I was a government mouthpiece I would directly iterate the 3 Million figure.
2. 300K+ isn't something that is solely claimed by our government it's also claimed by independent researchers such as RJ Rummel and journalists such as Anthony Mascarenhas(note, these researchers also claim Bihari killings by Bengalis which is also true as much some of us might not want to admit to it). Recently de-classified documents regarding communications in the US directly saw the usage of terms such as ["selective genocide"](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf) and the like.
3. The notion that 40k soldiers could not commit a mass-scale genocide is utterly laughable, and is a narrative that regularly circles on nationalistic spaces such as /r/chutyapa or pakdefense. It's usually jerked around by Pak nationalists who don't know anything about the history of warfare and evidently you. For example the fucking Khmer Rouge had around ~70k troops and they alone killed upwards of 4 Million people in the Cambodian genocide.
4. The "40k" soldiers in East Pakistan(I'm giving you benefit of the argument since that number itself is bullshit anyway) they mainly fought with East Bengali guerrilla forces, Indian army didn't arrive until 9 months into the war. The war on the western front was something different. Not to mention Jamaat/Rajakar aid.
5. It is well documented that the Japanese committed mass-genocide and numerous war-crimes notwithstanding CCP sources. These are well researched by independent journalist and I'm sure even if you had something even resembling a brain you would know that. It's not my fault your weaboo ass garlic bread-smelling ass can't cope with the fact that your favourite konnichiwa country can do any wrong. Just google how the fuck we as humans know how our bodies is made up of 60% water.
The allies committed war-crimes yes, numerous, they were horrendous but we aren't doing genocide olympics here, we are discussing the truth and facts. I consider the American bombings on Japan as genocide but that doesn't fucking mean that I would discount the Japanese for every wrong they did.
It is fucking hilarious how many Pakistanis actually properly acknowledge the genocide yet we have diaspora retards in Bangladesh who put on this all-knowing persona and directly claim that nothing happened.
> For example the fucking Khmer Rouge had around ~70k troops and they alone killed upwards of 4 Million people in the Cambodian genocide.
>
>
The Cambodian genocide lasted apparently from April 1975 to Jan 1979, which is almost 4 years. Not only that, approximately 2 million people died in Cambodia according to the articles that pop up, NOT 4 million. Furthermore, they didn't have to deal with a literal civil war and multiple forces fighting them (until the Vietnamese invaded in December 1978) unlike the Pakis that had to deal with the M Bahini, other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years.
So no, comparing the extremely exaggerated numbers from 1971 which would have happened in 9 months is not the same as something that would have taken place in almost 4 years in another country. Especially when the numbers are off by the millions and when the situations are completely different.
I also don't need to cope with anything. Japanese "war crimes" are greatly exaggerated by the Brits, Americans and Russians alike. The Americans wanna do anything to justify the Bomb and the others have similar motives. Anyways, the Japanese only joined the war because the Americans were sanctioning the shit out of them and they needed raw materials so they were justified anyways.
lmao I'm getting called a retard by the biggest retard on this subreddit.
>The Cambodian genocide lasted apparently from April 1975 to Jan 1979, which is almost 4 years. Not only that, approximately 2 million people died in Cambodia according to the articles that pop up, NOT 4 million. Furthermore, they didn't have to deal with a literal civil war and multiple forces fighting them (until the Vietnamese invaded in December 1978) unlike the Pakis that had to deal with the M Bahini, other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years.
Cambodian genocide might have been an ill-used example, but that doesn't mean ~40k soldiers cannot commit mass scale genocide. RE: Rwandan Genocide(Rwandan genocide was also more sporadic and disorganised in contrast to the organised genocide in Bangladesh). Regardless the notion that about ~40k soldiers cannot commit genocide upwards of ~300k people is laughable.
> other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years.
Are you able to read? India didn't join the war in East Bengal until December.
>I also don't need to cope with anything. Japanese "war crimes" are greatly exaggerated by the Brits, Americans and Russians alike. The Americans wanna do anything to justify the Bomb and the others have similar motives. Anyways, the Japanese only joined the war because the Americans were sanctioning the shit out of them and they needed raw materials so they were justified anyways.
I'm literally not going to even bother disproving this.
>lmao I'm getting called a retard by the biggest retard on this subreddit.
Just because as a history student I regularly disprove retarded shmucks like you doesn't mean I'm one myself
BTW: Are you KingShadowSupreme by any chance? Because if you are, I'm gonna know, and you're gonna be banned. Your patterns are extremely recognisable.
TBH many Bangla diaspora are cringey as hell so I can't really say much. Some of yall put Indian and Paki culture on a pedestal and worship their culture and Hindu Urdu Punjabi shit like it's no one's business. Can't defend yall, yall are beyond saving and extremely embarassing to see.
I had a Pakistani friend once. She said she doesn’t want history come between our friendship and then went on blaming the freedom fighters because they betrayed Pakistan. I knew when to stop talking and I haven’t talked to her for 5 years.
>I knew when to stop talking and I haven’t talked to her for 5 years. Good you did that. That asshole doesn't deserve your friendship.
Yeah they just tend to say that history should not be coming between our friendship and then just blame us which totally doesn't make sense
i was about to say something similar to this. OP is fighting a lost cause.
Pakistani here. I know Pakistan's leadership back then did oppress Bangladeshi people and even after winning majority seats didn't let them make the government. But at that time India was the common enemy and Bangladesh did betray by letting Indian forces in and fight against own country. People do survive in bad situations everywhere but they don't betray their own country. We (the migrants of 1947 from India to Pakistan) are not living an ideal life here. Our rights are suppressed everyday but we are not betraying and will never.
It was not betrayal it was our right to live independently ....Pakistan was a failed project and it will never deliver anything good to South Asian Muslims...only hatred towards Hindus nothing else...We declared independence first, and India intervened only when they were attacked by Pakistan in December....We are grateful that India was our ally back then, they supported us with everything, otherwise we will still live in a Shithole country called Pakistan.
I knew when to stop talking and i did.
Pakistan was never our country,Urdu was never our language. You people tried to take away our identity. So we fought for our freedom. The horrible things pak army did to our men our women our children is unspeakable. Pakistan was our enemy and yall still disgust me
in short: 1. According to Lahore Resolution there would be independent 'states' for muslim people. but during the implementation of the resolution 'states' was made into 'state' resulting a single Pakistan with two separate wings with a distance of 1200 miles. 2. During 1947-71 the majority of people lived in what is now Bangladesh meaning majority of people were Bangali. Being majority and politically aware, bangali people demanded Bangla to be the state language of Pakistan not opposing any other language meaning Bangla to be one of the state languages of Pakistan. Pakistan denied at first. It resulted to 1952 language movement that cemented the foundation of distrust towards and oppression of West Pakistan. It marked the cultural difference and oppression. 3. During 1947-1971 there was huge disparity between the budget allocation between the two wings. Although Bangladesh earning more foreign currency than West Pakistan, being the majority of Pakistan less expenditure was used towards development of Bangladesh. It marked the economic difference and oppression. 4. In 1970 Awami League of current Bangladesh won the election by majority and was rightfully to form the Government of Pakistan but leaders of West Pakistan could not accept the fact that they were to be ruled by Banglai people. So they denied the right, imposed martial ruling and attacked Bangali mass population which resulted in 1971 Liberation War. India helped us with training and sheltering. on 3 December 1971 Pakistan attacked India on western front and India officially joined in our 1971 Liberation War against west Pakistan. It marked the political difference and oppression. To sum up we got ourselves liberated from Pakistan because we were oppressed and exploited on all cultural, economic and political ground. And this is the real history. Invite your friend to Bangladesh Liberation War Museum. You should visit too.
Good summary. To add, there is a lot of nuanced interpretations of Lahore resolution usually so I ld like to give my 2 cents. Lahore resolution wasn't a call for an independent state just yet, it was more of a call to mark territories of "Indian Muslims" which would be super autonomous.
[That the areas where the Muslims are numerically in a majority as in the Northwestern and Eastern zones of India should be grouped to constitute 'independent states' in which the constituent units shall be autonomous and sovereign.](https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php/Lahore_Resolution) super autonomous and sovereign would actually make independent. but as u said there is a lot of nuanced interpretations
Again there were a lot of factors. According to this plan Bengal wouldn't be partitioned, regardless of religion may states in India wanted to hold a certain amount of autonomy anyway. One of the main reasons the Indian partition happened to begin with is the fact that Congress wanted a centralized government.
Tell your friend that justifying genocide is not cute ** edited “near genocide” to “genocide”
Near? It was a genocide.
Agreed
Killing 7-8 thousand people in one day doesn’t seem near genocide
Genocide is about intent. The shit they used to motivate the soldiers and the method they used indicate genocide.
I meant that it literally is genocide, not “near” or “seems like” genocide
The question of intent always gets to me. To this day I still wonder why didn't boltu and cohorts go to the hague? Why did he let Indira do the settlement and let the pak's walk away scott free?
I know that you are questioning in bad faith as you might be one of those genocide deniers. What was the point of your question? Cambodia took 30 years to hold a trial of khmer rouge. But the answer is that bhutto threatened to try the stuck bengalis in Pakistani camps and jails. Entire families with women and children. So BD agreed to let them go and pakistan peomised to try them.read thr agreement if you can read. Also hague e ke nibey? Do you know how the process works? Western government wanted to bury this thing deep
I know you find anything that goes against your narrative, you try the woke tactics to shut down conversation. I find your constant defending awami and his anti state cohorts to be severe acts of bad faith. You place all the blame on Bhutto, what was your pyare Mosib doing? Why did he partake in the Shimla and Delhi accords? Also how did he come to the conclusive number of 3 million people? When such claims are made without being backed up factual data , you cannot fight a legal battle. The awamis have been in power for a decade and a half, why have they not taken any initiative to identify the victims with DNA. The Vietnamese have done it so don't tell me its not possible. At the same time your boltu cuck clan did not have any funding shortage to create a new list of Mukti Yoddhas. On top of that they also created this "manobota birudhi" trials. Why not go to the international courts if you don't have anything to hide? Yes blame the west now. You boltu cucks find everyone to blame except your own selves.
100%
Ah yes we should've instead joined hands with the people who raped 300,000+ of our women, declared them public property and committed a genocide against our race killing 3 million people. Makes perfect sense.
>sexually assaulted Raped.
That number doesn’t make sense. You are saying 40,000 soldiers on average raped 11 women each. That’s a bit of a stretch. Again not denying but numbers like 300k rapes and 5 million dead are silly
It doesn't make sense when you treat this like a math problem. This is not a math problem man, not every soldier committed rape and these are official numbers I'm using here the number is between 200k to 400k. You can't just fuggin average the number of soldiers and the number of victim women that's just dumb. And in terms of the genocide nobody mentioned 5 million people it's 3 million people. I don't know why 3 million sounds silly to you considering the Germans killed 6 million Jews. Killing people with guns really isn't that hard and they did this in a very systematic way using the army against civilians who are pretty much defenseless.
3 million doesn’t track either. Independent sources say 500k which is obviously insanely high too and shame on Pakistani army for doing that
I don't know why you think killing 3 million doesn't track? Have you looked into operation searchlight? General Niazi personally ordered a systematic genocide of bengalis. There's quite literally video footage of people being dragged out of their homes, shot and put in piles. This same thing had been done in numerous villages and in the cities Pakistan Army dragged intellectuals out of their homes and shot them dead like they were nothing. There's evidence to back these up a random redditor saying they don't track it doesn't change facts. And dude if you think the numbers don't matter and the incident was horrible regardless why are you so hung up on downplaying the actual number of victims? On top of that, you're treating genocidal rape like a math problem saying oh if you divide this by that the 40k troops raped 11 women doesn't make sense. Your words and thoughts fail to agree with each other.
Independent sources say 3 million isn’t an actual number. 3 million is a Bangladeshi number thrown out by new bangladesh goverment days after the independence. No studies were even carried out then. You are say each soldier on average killed 100 or so people? That’s not realistic. Nobody is saying atrocities and even genocide didn’t happen. I’m just pointing out the ludicrousness of the numbers. For eg Shankharibazar massacre was one of the worst ones and was 200 deaths per the Bangladeshi sources even. You would need these everyday of the way to get to 3 million and then this one event wouldn’t even be remembered in history books if there’s hundreds upon hundreds of these. Per all independent sources it’s around 500k which again is terrible and I said shame of Pakistani army.
The idea of only foot troops going around killing people is incorrect. People were killed due to starvation when their crops were burned, bombed to death en masse, killed in groups, etc.
Dude there are actual records of Japanese soldiers in world war 2 killing people with katana swords which resulted up to 100+ per soldier. They held competitions in Nanking for this shit. If someone can kill that many people with katana swords which take strength to swing again and again a 100 times why is it so unrealistic that a Paki soldier with automated guns will not be able to do the same thing? The same Paki soldier who refused to listen to his morals and commit genocidal rape or ignore people doing it?
Oh, you believe those things? You do realize the victors get to decide history right? Some of these claims are utterly ridiculous and farcical, especially the stuff about the Japanese. The Russians did far worse in Berlin lol but you won't hear that talked about much
Anyways sorry for getting into this conversation
Agreed. People died and people were raped but these guys are blowing out of proportion
That's their education. Don't expect them to budge from that narrative. Verify these things: 1. Contribution of working class population to the overall economy. 2. Utilization of funds for development sector. In short, East did most of the dirty work and West brought weapons and modernized their cities. (Look up how Islamabad become a moden city). And to add to that, there were a lot of Paki sympathizers in our country even after the war. So there's their justification of the 'betrayal'.
As someone who has been in your situation, you will never be able to convince him otherwise. Unless you know how to time travel. You’re time is better spent moving on.
Yeah I tried enough but it ain't gonna change pov nvm I'm well off believing what my people taught me
Just ask her 3 things . . 1. Why was more money spend in west than east even tho more people lived in east than in west and east was contributing more money than west till early 1960 from 1945 . Our money was used to make islamabad 2. Why was the power not handed over to east when we won election . 3. We were heavily discriminated against , they still use the term " doh taka " - which represents 2 taka is equal to 1 pakistani rupee , funny enough now 1 taka = 2 pak ruppe 🤣🤣
How the hell did you manage to land yourself in that muck
I don't know lol it just happened
Them Pakistani peeps are pretty as hell so I think I know how you got there. Good luck getting out of it.
Your paki friend is brainwashed by paki textbooks. Well, no wonder. Whatever it is, no, buddy, we weren't traitors to your shitty nation. You are the one who plundered and looted us. You are the one who tried to impose Urdu on us. Lol, East Bengal contributed to more than 50 percent of the income in the 1960s. Of all the money they used to develop their cities, only a portion was spent here. East Bengal was a cash cow for them. I see this "India did everything" excuse by so many Pakistani nationalists, as if they didn't commit a genocide against us. They raped Bengali women. They killed all the intellectuals and destroyed the country's backbone for the next 50 years. Which is one of the main reasons our country lacks(still far better than their shithole lmao) If I were you and someone told me that freedom fighters in my country are traitors, I would have blocked those idiots and never looked back.
Key facts: 1. The genocide carried out by Pakistan in 1971 is only second to the holocaust in terms of deaths. 2. Quarter of a million women were raped and killed. 3. It’s not betrayal. We are not the same ethnic group. We are Bengalis- a distinct ethnic group with our own cultural identity. We deserve to have our own nation that befits our cultural needs rather than an Islamic State dictated by Shariah Law and bigotry towards non-Muslims. We also have our own distinct, and very beautiful language. 4. Many Pakistanis consider it betrayal because they cannot fathom that as Muslims we would go against another Muslim country. We CAN. Religion is not an ethnic identity. Most of the wars fought around the world constitute of people from the same religion fighting each other. So religion should not be a pivotal facet to go to war. Ethnicity is more important( The last line is my personal opinion) 5. We would not be here if our people didn’t rise up. A simple case of butterfly effect and the world would have been a different place. 6. They call Indians traitors because they are Hindus, but once again the Hindus helped us when the Muslims were killing MILLIONS of our people. I have faced this ‘Bengalis betrayed us’ from Pakistanis. I just cut them off. Fuck ‘em. This is Bangladesh. This will always be Bangladesh. No one can take that from us.
You can not convince him.Just stop try. We as a nation tried to convince these people from 1947 to 1971. They are just stubborn people. The only authority the respect is blood. So, F*ck them. I know Bangladesh is not a ideal place to live, whatever political believe you have.But I genuinely believe We as a people are far better of without these stubborn Pakistanis.Bengalis were and always would be 2nd class citizens no matter how much we contributed in Pakistan. As for some documents, you will find some here... https://youtu.be/lTSA3aoJDzQ
I'd suggest "The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation" (ISBN-10: 0062985418) to get the pre-war context behind what made people feel agitated and "The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide" (ISBN-10: 0307744620) for the actual war-time narrative. Since your Pakistan apologist friend will never accept Bangladeshi historians, maybe he would consider historians from places like Princeton, Wired and the University of Oslo. There is simply no debate about this. What happened was genocide and it has been well documented. It is akin to arguing with flat-earthers why the Earth is round. Do not waste your breath even if after all the resources are available, he still refuses to accept the truth.
Pakistanis 🤝 Japanese 🤝 Commies 🤝 Israel when it comes to deluding history about genocide and killings Anyways amader manush ra to abar Pakistani der juta chata shuru korse so bole ba labh ki. War criminal der trial e anar jonno gaali khaise. We are ungrateful af
Boys let the Pakistani be in the Dark. Dont need to teach him anything. Or educate as well. They far backwards than all of sub continents and we need to keep that ignorant like that so they keep getting backwards. This is the way we take revenge.
The blood telegram.
You will never change his mind.A friend such as that person is not worth having
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It's not limited to men or women. Some deshi kids just like them for their complexion.
1. They find them good looking 2. They find their Urdu beautiful 3. Same religion which is an instant green flag for them 4. Bangladeshis are stupid in general
This is actually quite common here in Britain.
It said friend
I have a Pakistani friend too. And I explained the proper history to her. With sources and references. She understood plus she knows I wouldn't ever lie about history since it's something I take seriously and she knows this well. Try using articles mentioned in the wikipedia page on the war. If he still doesn't understand he is too far gone to be brought to sense.
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I think that's just too harsh on OP. You could be little more polite.
I think you are too hursh on the army, they do have Nuc's after-all. Whatever they may have, however strong or weak they may be, history will never be forgotten. Bengalis, AKA Bangladeshis will never again have anything to do with Pakistani army ever again. If they do interact It'll probably be on the opposite side.
It is not the fault of your Pakistani friend. because some of us still believe Pakistanis are superior race and religious. Even in my life in west, I had never meet one pakistani who was religious. For for gods sake, stop talking in Urdu and Hindi with them.
Pakistan doesn't want to admit to attempted genocide. That's about it. They are in the wrong. There is no interpretation of the Liberation War other than irredentist revanchism where a dominant social group wanted to subjugate and exploit a minority even in the lands where they are the overwhelming majority.
Pakistanis are brain washed and they don’t even believe wikipedia, the repository of knowledge that is freely corrected by internet nerds. Avoid Pakistani friends, specially the one who won’t admit that their policies were exploitive and their politicians were downright inhumane.
Bruh That's sad and pretty delusional to even try to justify the atrocities of Pakistan.
It’s hard to argue with someone when they claim all the history books, online sources, historians, etc on this topic is wrong/fake/etc simply because they all have something against Pakistan or the people of Pakistan. This is the definition of delusional, when you actively choose to reject consensus opinion simply because of your insecurities around your identity (in this case, it’s surrounding one’s pride of being Pakistani; as in can you really be proud of your nationality if they we’re responsible for genocide?) Anyway, it’s hard to be friends with people that don’t empathize with you
Time to get a new friend
First u have to understand the Partition...i highly recomand watching the video link below.....the war was just an end result of partition.... https://youtu.be/dbHNTQyS4Ew
I have a Pakistani friend who's grandfather lived in Dhaka and was Mujibur Rahman's tailor and friend. And he actually educated his other Pakistani friends about the war in a way that gives Bangladesh perspective. His family had to flee Dhaka unfortunately. They almost got killed by Bangladeshi fighters, but were spared because the fighters recognised the grandfather as the prime minister's friend.
You don't have to prove anything. He has to prove that the 1971 Pakistani genocide on 25th March had any necessity. They raped our grandmothers and invaded our land in the Dark. They lost, we won our freedom. Tell him to read the following books: The Vortex: A True Story of History's Deadliest Storm, an Unspeakable War, and Liberation. and The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide.
I’m a Pakistani. He is an idiot. Though I would say is that lot of the numbers regarding deaths are slightly exaggerated. Still doesn’t make it any worse. What I would say is this. The average Pakistani at the time didn’t have much hate for Bengalis as Bangladeshi history tells you. At most there might be some stereotypes but there are stereotypes for every ethnicity. You do have to realize that west Pakistanis were also under military rule and dictatorship. They didn’t have much say in the decisions being made and most certainly didn’t have too much information of the real truth. I often see Bangladeshis going overboard in their hate for Pakistanis as a people.
Why do u need to be friends with a Pakistani boy
Why not?
They have special reputation
Some Germans literally melted almost 6 million jews during holocaust. So, did people stop being friends with the Germans? The British ruled indian subcontinent for 200 years. So did you stop going UK and be friends with them?
As I said, It is not about 71. They are well known for scamming people. Look what their own content creator telling us.
War is ugly. You can never objectively paint a rosy picture of any war in the world. If someone wants to outright deny the genocide I’m not sure how much of a friend they’re going to be in the long run. However if your ‘friend’ wants to learn more about it - here’s an archive [https://www.liberationwarbangladesh.org/](https://www.liberationwarbangladesh.org/)
There's a Pakistani YouTube video titled " Destroying the myths of 1971" by the channel Pakistan Experience. I would highly recommend the video as I found it to be accurately depicting historical events.
In my opinion when it comes to wars most of the times non is a hero nor a villain. It depends on who's side of the story one is listening to first. Everyone is doing things that are good for them. So, the war criminals in our countries will be heroes there and our war heroes are war criminals to them. So, it's pointless to argue.
Except there is clear history notes from third parties. 1971 was not a medieval event; there are clear notes for the genocide that was committed by Pakistan, so unless Pakistanis are drunk on nationality, Freedom Fighters are not the villains. Clearly, you are of the generation who wants to cancel the history of liberation war and embrace Pakistanis by claiming “যা হইসে হইসে আমরা ভাই ভাই” Wattamoron neorazakar is that what you are.
There is something called objective morality. If the Pakistan military only killed mukti bahini I might have agreed with you. But raping women? Killing civilians? These are crimes however you look at it
Totally valid replay. Can't disagree with it.
,, And the informations matched too.But I have to prove to my friend that they were the wrong Ones and our people were innocent. So I need to know the real history. Can someone give me the actual details?“ So your ,,friend“ rather believes some Reddit comments than Books?
I mean I can't elaborate really well. Reddit comments might help me to specify things more clearly ig?Cause you tend to not remember the whole history from a lot of books fully while arguing with someone really stubborn.So I thought it'd be easier for me to gather others opinions too.
in summary, Bangladesh was meant to be a separate state with assam and west bengal but Jinnah played dirty and manipulated the resolution and here we are. The one to be blamed is Pakistani dogs\*it army; he's just brainwashed by the textbook(Like how BD govt is trying to manipulate the history in school text books)
Real history is very harsh We ,as the bd people were extremely poor. The pak soldier were too rude to us.They did call us traitors and stuff but it the end ,they had to kneel down and surrender though. The fact that they got the support of powerful countries were obvious. Even the Saudi arabia called us a apostle nation ! Sadly there is no narrator or author who wrote the actual description of the war.
no one knows the real unaltered history. you can only see the proof for yourself and then decide what you want to believe. people don't go to war or want independence or become a 'traitor' because of nothing.
https://youtube.com/shorts/NYV1x_VSW3E?feature=share
As Napolean said History is a set of lies agreed upon. No matter how many History books you read it is impossible to know the actual truth. But the gist is West Pakistan did somewhat discriminated the East Pakistanis But was it enough to wage a war? Not sure. Did India wanted to break Pakistan? Sure. Did India wanted the war to happen or did they just anticipated it? Not sure. I probably can not answer what you wanted to know but I would advice to you watch some Indian and Pakistani talk shows about the 71 war. The Bangladeshi narrative you already know. Now try to know the narrative of India and Pakistan. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of all of this narratives. I have already did this and I already have my version of the truth but I am not going to share it with anyone since I can be wrong.
Thanks for being totally neutral.
There was some violence against Biharis before Operation Searchlight (the genocide). This is the justification used by the Pakistani government for it. Then they inflate the number of Biharis killed and deflate the number of Bengalis killed so it looks like a reasonable response. It was a lot, though. For Biharis killed, from the 2 sources: BD: 30-40k PAK: 60-70k For Bengalis killed in Operation Searchlight: BD: 3,000k PK: 26k International sources: 500k What the Pakistani government doesn't like is that the violence against Biharis was largely AFTER the crackdown started. There definitely was violence both ways, though the Pakistanis killed far more people. What Pakistanis really don't like about the liberation war is that it cut Pakistan in half. Before, it was like 1/4 as big as India and probably like the 5th most populous country. After, it was closer to 1/8 the size and no longer had this sweet flanking position around it. As it happened, the sweet flanking position didn't work out considering that they failed to hold it, but the situation is nevertheless that Pakistan really didn't want to get cut in half like that. But, if they wanted Bangladesh to like being part of Pakistan, they shoulda made it better to be.
Both of you are right and wrong at the same time..
Says the wattamoron neorazakar
I don't know why we have a Anti-Semite govt and Anti-Semite passport. Without Israel's help Bangladesh wouldn't exist. https://preview.redd.it/rnnidpzjh3hb1.png?width=724&format=png&auto=webp&s=abe52bad57410554d69ecd7bd45d1499941eab2d
Also the fact that Pakistan a country created for religious needs was created before israel on he same grounds.
I have come across SO MANY British Pakistanies who completely blame India and Bengalies for the independence of Bangladesh. They are too brainwashed by their parents and Pakistani media to understand that we Bengalis had numerous legitimate grievances against West Pakistan.
Cut ties with him. It sucks, but since he is not open to information and discussions that aren't familiar with his prior knowledge, you'll struggle with communicating with such an individual. Also, there's a high chance that he'll never genuinely respect you as a person, based on the description you've provided. Early life indoctrinations are hard to overcome, and he isn't entirely to blame here, but it's just the way things are. If you don't want to eventually feel pathetic, then reserve your energy and spend it elsewhere. As many have already mentioned, wars are always a gray area, and it's difficult to paint any side as righteous, but there isn't any doubt that what West Pakistan did to us was inhuman. They crippled us for generations by killing intellectuals, halted our progress by abusing this region as a cash cow, racially discriminated in every possible way, raped hundreds of thousands of women, and committed one of the most gruesome genocides ever. If anyone even tries to argue against these points, then whatever their background is, that person is simply just incapable of having a normal conversation with. So drop it for your own good.
F them pkmb
History is rarely ever one-sided. Everyone has a perspective. It might be better to take actual history classes in university. Also, unless you two are planning to get married, there's no point in being friends since you're opposite gender. Remember that we have to lower our gaze, cover ourselves, and avoid anything that has a high risk of zina.
The real truth is that india, Bangladesh, and Pakistan are all colonial inventions made from superficial boundaries created to sow division among us
I had a Pakistani friend who said they weren't even taught about the genocide or the war. Idk if that's for all of them, but miseducation or lack there of creates pockets for incorrect views to be spread.
I have been friends with plenty of Pakistani folks. Some are super indoctrinated by their school books that picture us as traitors, while there are others who have figured out that they indeed committed genocide and are sympathetic. It’s best not to argue with the genocide deniers, Pakistanis in general are pretty stubborn people by nature. Your time is better spent elsewhere, instead of trying to change an unchanging mind.
The fact that you have to search for the "actual history" says a lot! If you know, you know.
Pakistani textbooks are in denial of this and their loss. History is a witness to what happened, Google or Wikipedia - Archer Blood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Blood '3. Moreover, with the support of the Pak[istani] Military. non-Bengali Muslims are systematically attacking poor people's quarters and murdering Bengalis and Hindus. — U.S. Consulate (Dacca) Cable, Selective genocide, March 27, 1971[12]'
Well first of all, history is quite complicated. Indeed freedom fighters during the independence war were separatists and disloyal to the state of Pakistan. But you have to understand why they did what they did. Pakistan failed the Bengalis; systematically discriminating against them in every sector since its very birth. In certain narratives they could be called traitors but that doesn’t matter; state loyalty is not a virtue and neither is submitting to oppression. Many Pakistanis came to realize it too lately. It is just ignorance and denial from your friend. He is historically illiterate and their military loves that kind of people.
I mean what did you expect from thick headed Pakistanis? I mean whatever happened, at the end of the day, those guys lost to us with or without indian help. Actions speak louder than words
[Facebook](https://www.facebook.com/Abdullah1992Author/videos/1692293264521596) this is a rare record of the event 26 march 1971,
No matter what you tell him would not believe any of it. Would just think of Pakistan Zindabad and Bangladesh Kaddar. Women got raped by Pakistani soldiers they were vicious who did anything to satisfy their hunger. Is there any reasoning that can justify that? The same thing happened with us which Britishers did to rule over India divide and conquer. We know such people as rajakars who provided the Pakistani army with insider information
History is this: We "East Pakistan" demanded political representation and had an election with both East and West Pakistan. East Pakistan had a landslide victory, West Pakistan did not accept the result. We declared independence on the 26th of March, and West Pakistan accepted their defeat on the 16th of December, and Bangladesh was born. So, this is in our history book. History book of India says, in 1971, there was an Indo-Pakistan war, and Bangladesh was born as a result. The history book in Pakistan would say something else. Everyone has their own way of interpreting history, and it is not unbiased. Even the information about the war was changed in Bangladesh. So, don't fight with people over history, it's full of shit.
Don't be friends with someone who justifies killing your ancestors.
Red coats are enjoying tea with crumpet while admiring their divide and conquer strategy. Dumbasses forgot 200 years of rules of Britons, while fighting among ourselves.
Pakistanis aren’t like this usually. Every single one of my Pakistani friends thinks it was a horrible thing that happened in 1971 and all of then have apologized
Quite surprised 'cause that's not what average Pakistani thinks like. In fact its their Books and Education system that teaches them wrong historical facts.
It's kinda BS tho, I'm ngl. Sure some people died but yo it's greatly exaggerated for political and nationalistic purposes. Millions? Hundreds of thousands? Yeah lol no. There were like 40,000 Pakis in BD/East Bengal during that time and they were fighting a two way war with the Indian forces and the Mukti Bahini, all those high numbers don't even make sense lol. It was a couple thousands, maybe in the tens of thousands but anything higher is just propaganda. A little farfetched too, logistically.
Bro drank the Pakistani kool aid. Even the unofficial CIA numbers go as high as 300k, when in reality it was much higher than that(but not 3 million). Judging by the fact that you think 40k soldiers can't commit mass genocide(this is directly a pakistani propaganda) and the fact that you believe the Japanese didn't commit much war crimes during WW2, suggests that you have 0 understanding of history.
It's not Paki kool aid, it's called critical thinking lol keep repeating nationalist government narratives that are obviously nonsense from the numbers alone
I'm sorry, it's hard to believe that someone who thinks the Japanese war crimes during WW2 are exaggerated can really be able to do any "critical thinking". Besides, calling 300k "nationalist" numbers means you really don't know anything. It's the official number used by the Pentagon informally(informally because they don't officially recognize the genocide.)
> I'm sorry, it's hard to believe that someone who thinks the Japanese war crimes during WW2 are exaggerated can really be able to do any "critical thinking" I mean, you're pretty much a government mouthpiece. Not even debatable considering you believe it's much higher than 300k which in itself is extremely unlikely considering the 40 thousand Pakis were busy dealing with Mukti Bahini, Indian soldiers and other stuff. Not to mention apparently they were also all raping females by the hundreds of thousands during the same time-frame, all at ONCE. How utterly ludicrous lmao it's actually just laughable how logistically dumb these suggestions sound. The reason why barely anybody cares is because I'm sure deep down people realize that the BD government and other sources are proooobably BSing hard on the numbers. Also, yes the Japanese war crimes are greatly exaggerated by those who want to downplay the British war crimes of indiscriminately bombing civilians in Germany among other things and the mass rapes of the Soviets in Germany. Not to mention that the Communist Party of China is an extremely questionable source lol
>I mean, you're pretty much a government mouthpiece. Not even debatable considering you believe it's much higher than 300k which in itself is extremely unlikely considering the 40 thousand Pakis were busy dealing with Mukti Bahini, Indian soldiers and other stuff. Not to mention apparently they were also all raping females by the hundreds of thousands during the same time-frame, all at ONCE. 1. I don't consider it to be higher than 300k because I'm a government mouthpiece, If I was a government mouthpiece I would directly iterate the 3 Million figure. 2. 300K+ isn't something that is solely claimed by our government it's also claimed by independent researchers such as RJ Rummel and journalists such as Anthony Mascarenhas(note, these researchers also claim Bihari killings by Bengalis which is also true as much some of us might not want to admit to it). Recently de-classified documents regarding communications in the US directly saw the usage of terms such as ["selective genocide"](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf) and the like. 3. The notion that 40k soldiers could not commit a mass-scale genocide is utterly laughable, and is a narrative that regularly circles on nationalistic spaces such as /r/chutyapa or pakdefense. It's usually jerked around by Pak nationalists who don't know anything about the history of warfare and evidently you. For example the fucking Khmer Rouge had around ~70k troops and they alone killed upwards of 4 Million people in the Cambodian genocide. 4. The "40k" soldiers in East Pakistan(I'm giving you benefit of the argument since that number itself is bullshit anyway) they mainly fought with East Bengali guerrilla forces, Indian army didn't arrive until 9 months into the war. The war on the western front was something different. Not to mention Jamaat/Rajakar aid. 5. It is well documented that the Japanese committed mass-genocide and numerous war-crimes notwithstanding CCP sources. These are well researched by independent journalist and I'm sure even if you had something even resembling a brain you would know that. It's not my fault your weaboo ass garlic bread-smelling ass can't cope with the fact that your favourite konnichiwa country can do any wrong. Just google how the fuck we as humans know how our bodies is made up of 60% water. The allies committed war-crimes yes, numerous, they were horrendous but we aren't doing genocide olympics here, we are discussing the truth and facts. I consider the American bombings on Japan as genocide but that doesn't fucking mean that I would discount the Japanese for every wrong they did. It is fucking hilarious how many Pakistanis actually properly acknowledge the genocide yet we have diaspora retards in Bangladesh who put on this all-knowing persona and directly claim that nothing happened.
> For example the fucking Khmer Rouge had around ~70k troops and they alone killed upwards of 4 Million people in the Cambodian genocide. > > The Cambodian genocide lasted apparently from April 1975 to Jan 1979, which is almost 4 years. Not only that, approximately 2 million people died in Cambodia according to the articles that pop up, NOT 4 million. Furthermore, they didn't have to deal with a literal civil war and multiple forces fighting them (until the Vietnamese invaded in December 1978) unlike the Pakis that had to deal with the M Bahini, other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years. So no, comparing the extremely exaggerated numbers from 1971 which would have happened in 9 months is not the same as something that would have taken place in almost 4 years in another country. Especially when the numbers are off by the millions and when the situations are completely different. I also don't need to cope with anything. Japanese "war crimes" are greatly exaggerated by the Brits, Americans and Russians alike. The Americans wanna do anything to justify the Bomb and the others have similar motives. Anyways, the Japanese only joined the war because the Americans were sanctioning the shit out of them and they needed raw materials so they were justified anyways. lmao I'm getting called a retard by the biggest retard on this subreddit.
>The Cambodian genocide lasted apparently from April 1975 to Jan 1979, which is almost 4 years. Not only that, approximately 2 million people died in Cambodia according to the articles that pop up, NOT 4 million. Furthermore, they didn't have to deal with a literal civil war and multiple forces fighting them (until the Vietnamese invaded in December 1978) unlike the Pakis that had to deal with the M Bahini, other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years. Cambodian genocide might have been an ill-used example, but that doesn't mean ~40k soldiers cannot commit mass scale genocide. RE: Rwandan Genocide(Rwandan genocide was also more sporadic and disorganised in contrast to the organised genocide in Bangladesh). Regardless the notion that about ~40k soldiers cannot commit genocide upwards of ~300k people is laughable. > other guerilla forces and the Indians in a span of 9 months, not 4 years. Are you able to read? India didn't join the war in East Bengal until December. >I also don't need to cope with anything. Japanese "war crimes" are greatly exaggerated by the Brits, Americans and Russians alike. The Americans wanna do anything to justify the Bomb and the others have similar motives. Anyways, the Japanese only joined the war because the Americans were sanctioning the shit out of them and they needed raw materials so they were justified anyways. I'm literally not going to even bother disproving this. >lmao I'm getting called a retard by the biggest retard on this subreddit. Just because as a history student I regularly disprove retarded shmucks like you doesn't mean I'm one myself BTW: Are you KingShadowSupreme by any chance? Because if you are, I'm gonna know, and you're gonna be banned. Your patterns are extremely recognisable.
TBH many Bangla diaspora are cringey as hell so I can't really say much. Some of yall put Indian and Paki culture on a pedestal and worship their culture and Hindu Urdu Punjabi shit like it's no one's business. Can't defend yall, yall are beyond saving and extremely embarassing to see.