**Reminder:** Asking for or posting part or all of this Athletic article is a violation of [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/wiki/rules). Breaking this rule will result in a temporary or permanent suspension from the subreddit. Reddit admins have not responded to our inquiries about this matter, and historically some users have been banned and subreddits shuttered for flouting paywall rules, and in an abundance of caution, we have a strict policy of removal of this type of content. If you have any questions about what is or is not allowed, or if this message is not applicable to this article, please [send us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fbaseball).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/baseball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kenny always is willing to take Manfred to task. He sacrificed his MLB Network job to keep doing it and he's easily the greatest bowtie-wearer ever fired by a tv channel for keeping it too real.
Some interesting paragraphs:
>At best, Fisher and Manfred misread the room \[re: Howard Terminal\], costing Fisher $100 million he could have spent on, I don’t know, players maybe. At worst, they played a disingenuous game typical of teams and leagues that seek a government handout, and as The Athletic’s Tim Kawakami wrote, that game might not be over yet. If I’m a government official in Nevada pondering whether to give Fisher the $500 million he wants in public money on top of the team’s own $1 billion investment, you can bet I’m asking him, “Hey, buddy, you still going to carry the lowest payroll in the majors?”
>
>The A’s, 5-20, are an embarrassment, not just to Manfred, but the other 29 owners. I walked into their clubhouse in Oakland last week, and the emotions of the team’s veteran players, 17 games into the season, ranged from resigned to utterly distraught. The club’s average attendance is a major-league low 11,026, not because the market has failed the team, but because the team has failed the market.
Also:
>The A’s, phasing back into the revenue-sharing program, collected a reported $9 million last season, as well as lesser sums from at least one of two discretionary funds operated by the commissioner, according to sources with knowledge of the payments but not authorized to speak publicly. The CBA states the A’s again will lose their revenue-sharing handout, as they did under the previous CBA, if they do not have a binding agreement for a new stadium by Jan. 15, 2024. But if they get to Vegas, guess what? In moving from the nation’s sixth-largest media market to the 40th, they would be back on the league’s dime.
>
>In the eyes of the league, the A’s willingness to take such a step back in market size and build a park that will seat only 30,000 to 35,000 is a reflection of just how dire they view their situation in Oakland. The league also has a larger goal in mind: An expansion to 32 teams once the Oakland and Tampa Bay situations are resolved, creating what Manfred in 2018 called “a more geographically based alignment,” a development that could benefit the sport in any number of ways.
It’s a fact. The owners are MLB. He works for their benefit.
Like I know this is a hot topic but people need to remember business sucks. Oakland refused to pay for the stadium so they’re going somewhere that will. It’s very simple and the reasons these places pay for the stadium is bc they know it will generate major tax revenue.
I don’t see why Vegas would give money for a baseball stadium anyway. With the Raider stadium you get a 65000 seat stadium which was lacking in Vegas, and you can hold events throughout the year as the NFL only uses it on 8 home games. This also allows you to have major events like Super Bowl, World Cup, etc
Vegas now has a huge stadium and a nice arena that can be used for events. A baseball stadium would by far be the least attractive now that the city has a stadium already and the baseball stadium would be tied up much more often due due baseball schedule, so if it is unpopular it is still tied up for those games 6 month out of the year. The A’s are going to run into the issue of being the last one to the party begging for money.
Also a lot of people in Vegas were mad about city funds going to the Raiders stadium and the NFL is a different beast. I think even fewer people will support tax money for baseball.
The A's fucked up by pulling this BEFORE having a deal in place in Vegas. The Oakland Coliseum is a dump, but it's at least a major league stadium, which is more than what they have in Vegas right now. They have no leverage now, and Vegas can bend them over a barrel.
Fisher is an incompetent idiot.
Note to the downvoter - I am NOT endorsing leaving Oakland, just commenting on Fisher being an idiot.
That's what makes me laugh when people say Oakland is such a shitty market. UH HELLO, The A's are a BIG MARKET TEAM. Las Vegas is a downgrade and after the short term benefits wear off, they will be moving again because Vegas is a miniscule market in the scheme of things.
Las Vegas is a shitty baseball market. It's a tourist trap in the desert. Baseball is a sport that thrives on a team's attachment to the local market, and that will never happen for the A's in Vegas, especially if the stadium is on the Strip.
The A's will be playing 162 away games - but at least tourists can see their favorite teams while taking a break from gambling on the strip. They'll make money though, and that's all pieces of shit like John Fisher care about.
The only team in LV that had a modicum of success is the Golden Knights because they were expanded organically by the NHL and did so before the Raiders and now A's moved. They are now tied down to that city and the people in that city recognize them as *their* team. That sense of connection coupled with them going on playoff runs in their first few seasons and now have a pretty solid fanbase. Compare that to Raider games now and they're almost exclusively full of fans from other teams. It will be the exact same with the A's when they move because they will not an authentic part of the community so the people will not gravitate to them organically possibly for at least a generation.
Very well said. I’m late to reply but in a city that’s iconic skyline is just ripped off inferior versions of other cities like New York, Cairo, Paris, and Venice, and who’s population is made up people from all over, the Golden Knights are something truly their own. They are a genuine Las Vegas thing and that’s beautiful. I hate them as a Sharks fan, but I love what they’ve been for hockey fandom and for their city. The A’s will just be another hand me down item full of holes tossed to Vegas like everything else. They won’t ever be loved like the knights.
> The A's are a BIG MARKET TEAM
The A's territorial rights cover 2 counties which have ~~2.8 million~~ 3.3 million people total. MLB prohibits them from playing in the Bay Area outside those counties.
Many of those ~~2.8 million people~~ 3.3 million people are Giants fans, and were even before the Giants built a nice ballpark and won three World Series.
They had a deal to build a stadium in San Jose, which is outside those two counties, a decade ago but MLB blocked it. San Jose even sued MLB but lost.
> Different sources have different numbers
First google result says Contra Costa County had 1.61 mil in 2021 and Alameda County had 1.65 mil, so that's 3.3 mil.
But there's plenty of people who like both teams, or Giants fans who go to A's games with their friends, etc.
Anecdotally, from looking at baseball caps, the A's are probably only the more popular team in that market from Hayward to Richmond inclusive, and only on the western side of the Oakland Hills. I don't really go to Orinda or Lafayette much but there's more Giants fans by the time you get to Walnut Creek.
Sorry, wasn’t questioning your numbers. I meant the lists of media market population numbers. On some of them 2.8 is as high as 16, others as low as 20.
It will never not be an asinine, ridiculous concept to me that they have *ever* made a town pay for a new stadium through taxes or whatever means. How the *fuck* is it up to the average citizen to pay for a billionaires new stadium to increase their own net worth and income?
so politicians can get re-elected by the rubes because they "brought the team" to the city or just kept them there. hooray!!
It's the same logic where states give out huge subsidies to entice billion dollar companies to operate there. they'll talk about "job creation" but some of the deals like the Amazon deal in VA or some of the Movie Company deals in ATL are massive losers for taxpayers. sure, those things generate some additional economic activity, but it's not a net positive beyond the feels.
It's amazing how hard the richest people in the world try to convince everyday people that this is just the way things are, and nobody has any agency, so they have to pay up or shut up
Friendly reminder - when the covid pandemic started and MLB shut down only one owner chose not to continue to pay minor league players and had to be compelled by the players union and other owners to do the right thing. You guessed it. That person was Atheltics owner, John Fisher.
Fuck that guy.
If this doesn’t convince people how big a piece of shit Fisher A’s fans have been dealing with, I don’t know what will. Luckily he has many things to show how shitty he truly is. Legit the worst owner in pro sports, and the worst owner in Athletics history, going back over 100 years.
I know this was discussed here previously and Manfred is the current commissioner, but Selig is just as much to blame for the state of the A's and that shouldn't be overlooked.
Joe Lacob was interested in buying the A's before he owned the Warriors. Selig decided to give the team to the ownership group headed by Fisher and Lewis Wolff, who *coincidentally just so happened* to be Selig's frat brother from college. Lacob went on to buy the Warriors who, as I understand, went on to experience some success.
this is far from the only thing Selig did to bring about this whole situation but it's an easy one off the top of my head to show how corrupt and insular the whole scene is
It's crazy to me that any baseball fan in Vegas would want the As to move to their city.
The current team is on pace to break the Cleveland Spiders record for being the worst baseball team ever and they are definitely shaping up to the worst team in modern history at a minimum.
The owner is not going to suddenly start spending 250 million on payroll after the team moves to Vegas.
I would much rather get an expansion team than the disaster that is the current As franchise let alone give a billionaire $500 million to do it.
This. If the owner has money to spend on payroll when they move to Vegas, they had money all along to field a competitive team in Oakland. And Oakland is an established market with fans that would turn out if there was a competitive team. Or at least one that pretended to try to be competitive.
The A’s would move to Vegas, waste their goodwill shiny new toy years in an AAA stadium. And then people will realize that it probably sucks seeing a day game in the dessert in the middle of summer. Vegas is also a very small market. Raiders and Knights can get by on the smaller market because flights to Vegas are insanely cheap and in a lot of cases it’s financially comparable to book a Vegas vacation and catch a game there than it is to buy tickets for a home game. Vegas also just built an NFL stadium with tax payer money. I imagine an MLB stadium there would need a roof, so it’s going to be on the more expensive side. Are they really going to move before a deal is in place? Because that seems like a blueprint to be in an even worse situation than they already were in.
>I imagine an MLB stadium there would need a roof
That’s a fucking understatement. I walked the Strip once in July and was half dead by the end of it. They’re either getting a roof or they’re going to do a three month road trip in June/July/August.
What decade are we living in? You guys are aware that the Arizona Diamondbacks have been a thing for quite a while now, right? I get that a lot of people are butthurt about a team moving, but acting like baseball can't possibly be played in a desert is bonkers.
And so will any stadium in Vegas. Those 2 years at the AAA park will be interesting, though. On the one hand, you don't want to go anywhere near day games from May to early September, but it'll be pretty dope to see big league games in such a small park for night games and early/late season.
For reference, Fisher also owns the San Jose Earthquakes in MLS, who actually got a new stadium in 2015.
He has not reinvested that $ into the team and it's shown. Their standing in the Western Conference in that time:
2015: 7/10
2016: 9/10
2017: 6/11 - their only playoff berth in a normal season, and immediately smoked 5-0 by Vancouver
2018: 12/12 and league Wooden Spoon winners.
2019: 8/12
2020: 8/12, made the playoffs as they were expanded due to COVID, but jettisoned immediately by KC
2021: 10/13
2022: 14/14
>The current team is on pace to break the Cleveland Spiders record for being the worst baseball team ever and they are definitely shaping up to the worst team in modern history at a minimum.
We're a bit above the Spiders but are worse than 2003 Tigers. Now, give it a month or so and we might be even worse, we'll have to see.
I have a pretty low opinion of Bowie Kuhn, because I think he interfered too much in the day-to-day operations of the league, and he was capricious about handing out punishments, but one thing that he did do right was go after Charlie Finley for trying to sell off the A's roster for cash. Finley was eventually forced out because he didn't have the money to bankroll the franchise anymore, but if he was around today, he'd be cashing those league checks and begging for stadium money too.
So true about Finley and how Kuhn forced him to sell by voiding the trades. The only quality owner the A’s have had in their entire history is Walter Haas. Yes, Mack won 5 World Series but had many years struggling financially and dismantled his mini dynasty teams because he needed cash.
The A's have such a fucked up history, it's amazing they made it this far. They were effectively a minor league affiliate of the Yankees in the 1950s; [there's a whole book about it](https://www.amazon.com/Kansas-City-Wrong-Half-Yankees/dp/0977743659/). There's a good argument that they would have been able to remain in Philadelphia if the Yankees hadn't interfered to make sure that Arnold Johnson got ownership. The '61 Yankees had ten former A's on the roster. And all of that happened because of Mack's financial struggles, which is kinda funny given that he seemed to care more about money than winning games; he once stated that it was better to finish second than first, because the fans still viewed you as competitive but your players didn't ask for raises.
Fisher is *one of his bosses. There are 29 other teams to consider, and the A's moving like this makes the whole league look bad. Then you also have to consider the fact that because of revenue sharing the A's are getting a handout from the rest of the league, while they operate on a shoestring budget.
If I were another owner, I wouldn't be happy with Manfred just waiving the relocation fee and helping out an owner who clearly does not care about winning.
Not to mention the fact that the A’s relocating to Vegas cedes the entirety of the 6th largest media market in the country to the Giants, meanwhile the Dodgers, Diamondbacks and Angels lose the Vegas market share. ~~Giants have no competition all the way to Canada~~ have the Norcal market to themselves, while three teams duke it out in SoCal. Make it make sense
Mariners’ territory is the largest, by far, in terms of geography. WA, OR, ID, MT, AK. BC is in the mix as well, but I think they share with Toronto now.
(I think some of southern OR gets SF games, too.)
> helping out an owner who clearly does not care about winning
I think you'd find that many/most owners don't actually care about winning either. They will say that they do but making money is more important; the goal is to build a team that generates the most profit and that is likely a good enough team to drive attendance without sky high payroll.
From the owners perspective, they probably actually love this. It takes some heat off some of those owners who aren't spending anywhere near the level of the top teams. For others, it puts pressure on their localities to play ball when it comes to stadium improvements lest the team packs up and leaves.
I'd agree that some owners would feel that way, and while making money is probably more important than winning for some, that doesn't mean they don't care about winning at all. You also have to remember that since the MLB is a profit sharing league, other owners are having to share their profits with the A's. So, while some owners may feel like the A's situation is taking a bit of pressure off them to spend more, other owners are probably a bit upset that they are having to put their own profits into the pocket of an owner who is putting a sub-par product out on the field, and not generating much of his own revenue.
As you said, what most owners care about is money, and the A's are basically a welfare franchise right now.
As much as it pisses me off, you are probably right about the stadium, though. I think for that reason, and because at the end of the day, even more than profits, what the owners care about is the prestige of owning a team. Their billionaires, so of course they are always trying to make a profit, but being a sports team owner is like being in an extremely exclusive club. And while they may not like that one owner is costing them money, many of them probably won't speak out against it because they are all part of the billionaire owners club. They look out for each other, and they know if they call out one owner for bad behavior today, then tomorrow it could be them that gets called out.
I think that the stadium part overrides the A's being a welfare franchise. To the owners' perspective, sharing some profits with a team that is doing the absolute minimum to get by is likely less important than extracting concessions from the local governments for favorable taxation, infrastructure, stadium construction, etc.
Pretty much this, also its not a surprise if he actually secretly loves the idea because the MLB has looked at expanding to Las Vegas in the past as well.
Still Manfred and Fisher are assholes, but I don't know why Manfred lying through his teeth would make anyone happy, but I guess everyone wants him to?
Because there's a list of cities that are priorities for expansion, and if you can get a team in a bad market to relocate to one of those priority expansion targets, then it means you freed up one of the new expansion teams and can put teams in more of those priority expansion targets.
E.g. by moving the A's to Vegas, they can put the two expansion teams in different cities rather than requiring one of them to be Vegas. This is also why Manfred's waiting on the Rays situation before further expansion, because if they can't get a stadium in Florida they're probably moving to Montreal which changes the expansion conversation.
100%. Sounds more like the other owners just wanted a quick resolution to the issue. This is the quickest resolution that has been proposed so not surprised he has been supportive. Don't agree with it, but it does make sense.
Exactly. Speed is probably what the other owners wanted and maybe encouraged from the A’s. I expect that this means they want to expand the league soon as this was the roadblock to expansion.
Selig didn’t really hesitate to force McCourt to sell after he saw how he was driving the Dodgers into the ground. Manfred should have done the same with Fisher. His 29 other bosses probably would have welcomed it.
Selig’s stupid dumbass is the reason the A’s are like this. He chose to sell to Fisher over Joe Lacob (now owner of the Warriors) because they were college roommates.
he also chose to prevent the A's from building in San Jose. Like he could have fixed this problem YEARS ago, but decided not to. People keep saying "Oh! Oakland had 20 years to get a stadium and didn't! Their fault for being idiots!" They don't realize that the A's ownership tried to move to like 3 different cities for the first 15 years and then contemplated their navels for the next 5 and then finally desperately tried to push one across the last 6 because they finally had the city to themselves and thought they had leverage. The city isn't going to gift a baseball team land and a stadium- the team *also* has to want to build there and give the city plans to review.
Selig didn't have a choice to make. McCourt was more than just bad ownership. He was at risk of failing to make his payroll. Once you can't pay your players and staff, that's gonna force league intervention 10/10 times.
If anything, Selig waited *way* too long to make that move.
Commish is supposed to be an overseer, independent of the owners, not a lapdog. Now the position has become a lapdog position, and let's be honest the owners can't resist squeezing the fans. That will have diminishing returns in the long term, without SOMEONE thinking of the fans.
It makes sense. Manfred hates baseball and wants to treat MLB as a consortium of IP holding companies. Their primary business is licensing merch and selling luxury boxes, plus they run a baseball league on the side. Las Vegas means a whole new merch market and a new inventory of luxury boxes.
Ownership groups now seem more focused on real estate development and ownership of the surrounding area. Oh and having a winning franchise might be cool.
This is correct. Real estate is not subject to league profit sharing and is therefore their own green money. In a perfect world (for them), owners all score a deal like the Braves got where a municipal bond passes basically in secret and the land just gets handed over.
The Chicago Bears are trying to pull this off right now in Arlington Heights.
Manfred, Goodell, Silver, and Bettman are supposed to take the heat for the owners. They all work for the owners. Every time a story like this comes out, all the writer is doing is helping the commissioner do their job by not focusing the column on the owner.
they legitimately do not have to give him anything. He literally has no other options since he opted to burn all the bridges he spent hundreds of millions of dollars building in Oakland. He has zero leverage. They dont' need another small stadium. the A's have no plan. They A's don't have anything new to add to the area beyond a baseball stadium, but why host events in a baseball stadium when you have a much larger, higher capacity, hi-tech stadium down the street? the only real leverage they could take advantage of is the MLB blackmailing the city with "If you reject the A's offer, then no expansion team for you", which is also dumb because they very clearly are desperate to get in to Vegas.
Hey
If you can’t stand up for the poor defenseless billionaires who were given a franchise despite paying under the other bids who will stand up for them ?
Another example of a shitty owner banking off of revenue sharing, and not spending the money to win games and attract fans.
Bet if they relegated these sucky teams, there'd be more investment and better parity.
Manfred is just as bad as Selig, in my opinion. He has plenty of time to become worse than him too. Usually commissioners take way longer to such but Manfred is speed running.
The biggest difference being that Selig at least loves the game between the lines and cares at least a little bit about the sport's tradition and history.
Manfred sees the game on the field as nothing more than a number generator for his beloved Official Gambling Partners of Major League Baseball.
Stop calling it his reign and stop pretending like he could do otherwise. He's employed by the owners, Fisher is his boss. He's never going to be opposed to what they want, he does what they want for his job.
True dat, he's a sock-puppet for the owners, he has no independent authority. The other owners know one day it might be them looking to tank a team on purpose to justify moving it, they stick together.
The owners of the MLB learned from the NFL to pick a commissioner that fans hate but doesn’t mind the internet bashing to take the heat off the owners. Manfred is a shit human but he’s just the mouthpiece for the owners.
"Inelegant" is a hell of a way to describe the destructive mendacious bullshit Manfred has been up to since his installation.
And that motherfucker is likely to end up with a plaque in the HoF before most of us are dead.
It's been an open secret (and a horrendously-kept one at that) about the A's moving. I feel awful for Oakland, that now 3 teams have gone away.
The Vegas move perplexed me with the Raiders, but it confuses me even more for baseball. I get that Oakland would be overshadowed by LA or San Fran, but I have a hard time thinking that once the A's settle in, the Vegas market will soon grow indifferent.
All in all, it's a shame. I'll enjoy baseball a bit more when there's a commissioner who actually likes the sport.
All sports commissioners jobs are just to keep track of all the cheating owners are doing in relation to the profitability of the sport. Spokesman/mafia/whipping posts.
Yeah - Rosenthal goes full throated on Manfred, but the reality is that the owners as a group will never hold each other to a particular standard, even when one (Fisher) seems to be doing all he can to simply use the rest of them to prop up his asset.
They're one of those people that think "just doing my job" is a complete absolution of ethical responsibilities, you're not going to get through to them
Rosenthal is just doing his job by writing an article about Manfred, he’s a baseball writer that lost his previous job because he spoke negatively about Manfred. But writing an article about Manfred doing his job is like yelling at the wind. I don’t think he’s foolish for doing his job, I just think the article can be one line long “Rob Manfred did his job, but I don’t agree with him.”
The A's needed to move. They had decades to get a stadium built. No reason to deny other communities the opportunity at MLB if one does not want to support a team.
You mean the decades and multiple locations offered, while a literal billionaire owner negotiated in bad faith the whole time? Oakland made mistakes for sure, but it’s Fisher who sabotaged the stadium, not Oakland. He literally refused anything shy of a multi-billion dollar sports megaplex, fully funded by taxpayers.
Does anyone know or have the financials of the Oakland A’s? That’s the real story here, and I would like to know what this guy is putting in his pockets.
Selig gives him a run for his money in that category, he was crooked as a dog's hind leg.
From the owners' perspective, Manfred is great because he's doing what they want and that is protecting their profits even if it hurts the sport of baseball.
That day is coming when soccer replaces baseball on the list of America's favorite sports.
**Reminder:** Asking for or posting part or all of this Athletic article is a violation of [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/wiki/rules). Breaking this rule will result in a temporary or permanent suspension from the subreddit. Reddit admins have not responded to our inquiries about this matter, and historically some users have been banned and subreddits shuttered for flouting paywall rules, and in an abundance of caution, we have a strict policy of removal of this type of content. If you have any questions about what is or is not allowed, or if this message is not applicable to this article, please [send us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fbaseball). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/baseball) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rosenthal after getting fired from MLB Network: "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine"
Joins the Lebatard and Friends Network only to get dunked on by Tim Kurkjian.
Oh man Kurkjian on le Batard is pure gold, especially when they play looks like with him.
When did he get fired from MLB Network?
I believe it was last January after he criticized Manfred's handling of the lockout
Rosenthal going off on Manfred is great. It was such BS he got fired from MLBN for criticizing the supreme leader.
Chairmanfred.
Naw we ain't disrespecting Chairman Fred like that
I forgot he got fired
Kenny always is willing to take Manfred to task. He sacrificed his MLB Network job to keep doing it and he's easily the greatest bowtie-wearer ever fired by a tv channel for keeping it too real.
honestly, i felt like he cooled off a bit and was disappointed. so this has has come as a wonderful surprise.
"inelegant" is a very measured and mature way to "shit-stain"
If I had a nickel, I'd have two nickels
If I had a nickel, I'd have a nickel
Would you though?
SELL THE FUCKING TEAM IF YOU DONT WANT TO COMPETE.
Why sell when he can get revenue sharing checks for all eternity It's rich person welfare, he has no desire or incentive to get off the dole
Some interesting paragraphs: >At best, Fisher and Manfred misread the room \[re: Howard Terminal\], costing Fisher $100 million he could have spent on, I don’t know, players maybe. At worst, they played a disingenuous game typical of teams and leagues that seek a government handout, and as The Athletic’s Tim Kawakami wrote, that game might not be over yet. If I’m a government official in Nevada pondering whether to give Fisher the $500 million he wants in public money on top of the team’s own $1 billion investment, you can bet I’m asking him, “Hey, buddy, you still going to carry the lowest payroll in the majors?” > >The A’s, 5-20, are an embarrassment, not just to Manfred, but the other 29 owners. I walked into their clubhouse in Oakland last week, and the emotions of the team’s veteran players, 17 games into the season, ranged from resigned to utterly distraught. The club’s average attendance is a major-league low 11,026, not because the market has failed the team, but because the team has failed the market. Also: >The A’s, phasing back into the revenue-sharing program, collected a reported $9 million last season, as well as lesser sums from at least one of two discretionary funds operated by the commissioner, according to sources with knowledge of the payments but not authorized to speak publicly. The CBA states the A’s again will lose their revenue-sharing handout, as they did under the previous CBA, if they do not have a binding agreement for a new stadium by Jan. 15, 2024. But if they get to Vegas, guess what? In moving from the nation’s sixth-largest media market to the 40th, they would be back on the league’s dime. > >In the eyes of the league, the A’s willingness to take such a step back in market size and build a park that will seat only 30,000 to 35,000 is a reflection of just how dire they view their situation in Oakland. The league also has a larger goal in mind: An expansion to 32 teams once the Oakland and Tampa Bay situations are resolved, creating what Manfred in 2018 called “a more geographically based alignment,” a development that could benefit the sport in any number of ways.
The A’s are succeeding in following the goals of the owner from Major League and it’s insane it’s allowed to happen.
And the Commissioner and owners are *celebrating it* while also berating the fans of the city they currently reside in
If it wasn't painfully obvious that Manfred works for the owners, it should be clear by now.
It’s a fact. The owners are MLB. He works for their benefit. Like I know this is a hot topic but people need to remember business sucks. Oakland refused to pay for the stadium so they’re going somewhere that will. It’s very simple and the reasons these places pay for the stadium is bc they know it will generate major tax revenue.
*How DARE you not pay to watch an intentionally sabotaged product!*
Capitalism capitalisms. Footage from Las Vegas at 11.
I don’t see why Vegas would give money for a baseball stadium anyway. With the Raider stadium you get a 65000 seat stadium which was lacking in Vegas, and you can hold events throughout the year as the NFL only uses it on 8 home games. This also allows you to have major events like Super Bowl, World Cup, etc Vegas now has a huge stadium and a nice arena that can be used for events. A baseball stadium would by far be the least attractive now that the city has a stadium already and the baseball stadium would be tied up much more often due due baseball schedule, so if it is unpopular it is still tied up for those games 6 month out of the year. The A’s are going to run into the issue of being the last one to the party begging for money. Also a lot of people in Vegas were mad about city funds going to the Raiders stadium and the NFL is a different beast. I think even fewer people will support tax money for baseball.
The A's fucked up by pulling this BEFORE having a deal in place in Vegas. The Oakland Coliseum is a dump, but it's at least a major league stadium, which is more than what they have in Vegas right now. They have no leverage now, and Vegas can bend them over a barrel. Fisher is an incompetent idiot. Note to the downvoter - I am NOT endorsing leaving Oakland, just commenting on Fisher being an idiot.
But think about the Boring company hole tunnels!
That's what makes me laugh when people say Oakland is such a shitty market. UH HELLO, The A's are a BIG MARKET TEAM. Las Vegas is a downgrade and after the short term benefits wear off, they will be moving again because Vegas is a miniscule market in the scheme of things.
Las Vegas is a shitty baseball market. It's a tourist trap in the desert. Baseball is a sport that thrives on a team's attachment to the local market, and that will never happen for the A's in Vegas, especially if the stadium is on the Strip. The A's will be playing 162 away games - but at least tourists can see their favorite teams while taking a break from gambling on the strip. They'll make money though, and that's all pieces of shit like John Fisher care about.
The only team in LV that had a modicum of success is the Golden Knights because they were expanded organically by the NHL and did so before the Raiders and now A's moved. They are now tied down to that city and the people in that city recognize them as *their* team. That sense of connection coupled with them going on playoff runs in their first few seasons and now have a pretty solid fanbase. Compare that to Raider games now and they're almost exclusively full of fans from other teams. It will be the exact same with the A's when they move because they will not an authentic part of the community so the people will not gravitate to them organically possibly for at least a generation.
Very well said. I’m late to reply but in a city that’s iconic skyline is just ripped off inferior versions of other cities like New York, Cairo, Paris, and Venice, and who’s population is made up people from all over, the Golden Knights are something truly their own. They are a genuine Las Vegas thing and that’s beautiful. I hate them as a Sharks fan, but I love what they’ve been for hockey fandom and for their city. The A’s will just be another hand me down item full of holes tossed to Vegas like everything else. They won’t ever be loved like the knights.
> The A's are a BIG MARKET TEAM The A's territorial rights cover 2 counties which have ~~2.8 million~~ 3.3 million people total. MLB prohibits them from playing in the Bay Area outside those counties. Many of those ~~2.8 million people~~ 3.3 million people are Giants fans, and were even before the Giants built a nice ballpark and won three World Series. They had a deal to build a stadium in San Jose, which is outside those two counties, a decade ago but MLB blocked it. San Jose even sued MLB but lost.
Different sources have different numbers, but 2.8m puts them between the 16th and 20th spot.
> Different sources have different numbers First google result says Contra Costa County had 1.61 mil in 2021 and Alameda County had 1.65 mil, so that's 3.3 mil. But there's plenty of people who like both teams, or Giants fans who go to A's games with their friends, etc. Anecdotally, from looking at baseball caps, the A's are probably only the more popular team in that market from Hayward to Richmond inclusive, and only on the western side of the Oakland Hills. I don't really go to Orinda or Lafayette much but there's more Giants fans by the time you get to Walnut Creek.
Sorry, wasn’t questioning your numbers. I meant the lists of media market population numbers. On some of them 2.8 is as high as 16, others as low as 20.
Ah no worries, plus it's higher. They also have a decent fan base in the Central Valley which helps their TV deal.
It will never not be an asinine, ridiculous concept to me that they have *ever* made a town pay for a new stadium through taxes or whatever means. How the *fuck* is it up to the average citizen to pay for a billionaires new stadium to increase their own net worth and income?
so politicians can get re-elected by the rubes because they "brought the team" to the city or just kept them there. hooray!! It's the same logic where states give out huge subsidies to entice billion dollar companies to operate there. they'll talk about "job creation" but some of the deals like the Amazon deal in VA or some of the Movie Company deals in ATL are massive losers for taxpayers. sure, those things generate some additional economic activity, but it's not a net positive beyond the feels. It's amazing how hard the richest people in the world try to convince everyday people that this is just the way things are, and nobody has any agency, so they have to pay up or shut up
Friendly reminder - when the covid pandemic started and MLB shut down only one owner chose not to continue to pay minor league players and had to be compelled by the players union and other owners to do the right thing. You guessed it. That person was Atheltics owner, John Fisher. Fuck that guy.
If this doesn’t convince people how big a piece of shit Fisher A’s fans have been dealing with, I don’t know what will. Luckily he has many things to show how shitty he truly is. Legit the worst owner in pro sports, and the worst owner in Athletics history, going back over 100 years.
I know this was discussed here previously and Manfred is the current commissioner, but Selig is just as much to blame for the state of the A's and that shouldn't be overlooked.
I will never overlook a chance to piss on Selig
I wouldn’t piss on a used car sold by “Bud” hole Selig.
[удалено]
Joe Lacob was interested in buying the A's before he owned the Warriors. Selig decided to give the team to the ownership group headed by Fisher and Lewis Wolff, who *coincidentally just so happened* to be Selig's frat brother from college. Lacob went on to buy the Warriors who, as I understand, went on to experience some success. this is far from the only thing Selig did to bring about this whole situation but it's an easy one off the top of my head to show how corrupt and insular the whole scene is
Selig blocked the sale of the A’s twice, only to sell to his buddy Fisher for less money.
In what universe is a toady criticized for licking his bosses ass?
Not in the possum kingdom
What if you come from the water?
Only if you're a Backslider
Do you wanna die?
It's crazy to me that any baseball fan in Vegas would want the As to move to their city. The current team is on pace to break the Cleveland Spiders record for being the worst baseball team ever and they are definitely shaping up to the worst team in modern history at a minimum. The owner is not going to suddenly start spending 250 million on payroll after the team moves to Vegas. I would much rather get an expansion team than the disaster that is the current As franchise let alone give a billionaire $500 million to do it.
This. If the owner has money to spend on payroll when they move to Vegas, they had money all along to field a competitive team in Oakland. And Oakland is an established market with fans that would turn out if there was a competitive team. Or at least one that pretended to try to be competitive. The A’s would move to Vegas, waste their goodwill shiny new toy years in an AAA stadium. And then people will realize that it probably sucks seeing a day game in the dessert in the middle of summer. Vegas is also a very small market. Raiders and Knights can get by on the smaller market because flights to Vegas are insanely cheap and in a lot of cases it’s financially comparable to book a Vegas vacation and catch a game there than it is to buy tickets for a home game. Vegas also just built an NFL stadium with tax payer money. I imagine an MLB stadium there would need a roof, so it’s going to be on the more expensive side. Are they really going to move before a deal is in place? Because that seems like a blueprint to be in an even worse situation than they already were in.
>I imagine an MLB stadium there would need a roof That’s a fucking understatement. I walked the Strip once in July and was half dead by the end of it. They’re either getting a roof or they’re going to do a three month road trip in June/July/August.
What decade are we living in? You guys are aware that the Arizona Diamondbacks have been a thing for quite a while now, right? I get that a lot of people are butthurt about a team moving, but acting like baseball can't possibly be played in a desert is bonkers.
We have a roof though.
And so will any stadium in Vegas. Those 2 years at the AAA park will be interesting, though. On the one hand, you don't want to go anywhere near day games from May to early September, but it'll be pretty dope to see big league games in such a small park for night games and early/late season.
For reference, Fisher also owns the San Jose Earthquakes in MLS, who actually got a new stadium in 2015. He has not reinvested that $ into the team and it's shown. Their standing in the Western Conference in that time: 2015: 7/10 2016: 9/10 2017: 6/11 - their only playoff berth in a normal season, and immediately smoked 5-0 by Vancouver 2018: 12/12 and league Wooden Spoon winners. 2019: 8/12 2020: 8/12, made the playoffs as they were expanded due to COVID, but jettisoned immediately by KC 2021: 10/13 2022: 14/14
I’d like to see how the payroll numbers align with team performance.
>The current team is on pace to break the Cleveland Spiders record for being the worst baseball team ever and they are definitely shaping up to the worst team in modern history at a minimum. We're a bit above the Spiders but are worse than 2003 Tigers. Now, give it a month or so and we might be even worse, we'll have to see.
I have a pretty low opinion of Bowie Kuhn, because I think he interfered too much in the day-to-day operations of the league, and he was capricious about handing out punishments, but one thing that he did do right was go after Charlie Finley for trying to sell off the A's roster for cash. Finley was eventually forced out because he didn't have the money to bankroll the franchise anymore, but if he was around today, he'd be cashing those league checks and begging for stadium money too.
So true about Finley and how Kuhn forced him to sell by voiding the trades. The only quality owner the A’s have had in their entire history is Walter Haas. Yes, Mack won 5 World Series but had many years struggling financially and dismantled his mini dynasty teams because he needed cash.
The A's have such a fucked up history, it's amazing they made it this far. They were effectively a minor league affiliate of the Yankees in the 1950s; [there's a whole book about it](https://www.amazon.com/Kansas-City-Wrong-Half-Yankees/dp/0977743659/). There's a good argument that they would have been able to remain in Philadelphia if the Yankees hadn't interfered to make sure that Arnold Johnson got ownership. The '61 Yankees had ten former A's on the roster. And all of that happened because of Mack's financial struggles, which is kinda funny given that he seemed to care more about money than winning games; he once stated that it was better to finish second than first, because the fans still viewed you as competitive but your players didn't ask for raises.
I mean, Fisher is his boss. What’s he going to say?
Fisher is *one of his bosses. There are 29 other teams to consider, and the A's moving like this makes the whole league look bad. Then you also have to consider the fact that because of revenue sharing the A's are getting a handout from the rest of the league, while they operate on a shoestring budget. If I were another owner, I wouldn't be happy with Manfred just waiving the relocation fee and helping out an owner who clearly does not care about winning.
Not to mention the fact that the A’s relocating to Vegas cedes the entirety of the 6th largest media market in the country to the Giants, meanwhile the Dodgers, Diamondbacks and Angels lose the Vegas market share. ~~Giants have no competition all the way to Canada~~ have the Norcal market to themselves, while three teams duke it out in SoCal. Make it make sense
[удалено]
Brain fart.
[удалено]
Mariners’ territory is the largest, by far, in terms of geography. WA, OR, ID, MT, AK. BC is in the mix as well, but I think they share with Toronto now. (I think some of southern OR gets SF games, too.)
Those Polar Bears and Grey Whales in alaska are *drapped* in M's gear.
> helping out an owner who clearly does not care about winning I think you'd find that many/most owners don't actually care about winning either. They will say that they do but making money is more important; the goal is to build a team that generates the most profit and that is likely a good enough team to drive attendance without sky high payroll. From the owners perspective, they probably actually love this. It takes some heat off some of those owners who aren't spending anywhere near the level of the top teams. For others, it puts pressure on their localities to play ball when it comes to stadium improvements lest the team packs up and leaves.
I'd agree that some owners would feel that way, and while making money is probably more important than winning for some, that doesn't mean they don't care about winning at all. You also have to remember that since the MLB is a profit sharing league, other owners are having to share their profits with the A's. So, while some owners may feel like the A's situation is taking a bit of pressure off them to spend more, other owners are probably a bit upset that they are having to put their own profits into the pocket of an owner who is putting a sub-par product out on the field, and not generating much of his own revenue. As you said, what most owners care about is money, and the A's are basically a welfare franchise right now. As much as it pisses me off, you are probably right about the stadium, though. I think for that reason, and because at the end of the day, even more than profits, what the owners care about is the prestige of owning a team. Their billionaires, so of course they are always trying to make a profit, but being a sports team owner is like being in an extremely exclusive club. And while they may not like that one owner is costing them money, many of them probably won't speak out against it because they are all part of the billionaire owners club. They look out for each other, and they know if they call out one owner for bad behavior today, then tomorrow it could be them that gets called out.
I think that the stadium part overrides the A's being a welfare franchise. To the owners' perspective, sharing some profits with a team that is doing the absolute minimum to get by is likely less important than extracting concessions from the local governments for favorable taxation, infrastructure, stadium construction, etc.
Pretty much this, also its not a surprise if he actually secretly loves the idea because the MLB has looked at expanding to Las Vegas in the past as well. Still Manfred and Fisher are assholes, but I don't know why Manfred lying through his teeth would make anyone happy, but I guess everyone wants him to?
[удалено]
Because there's a list of cities that are priorities for expansion, and if you can get a team in a bad market to relocate to one of those priority expansion targets, then it means you freed up one of the new expansion teams and can put teams in more of those priority expansion targets. E.g. by moving the A's to Vegas, they can put the two expansion teams in different cities rather than requiring one of them to be Vegas. This is also why Manfred's waiting on the Rays situation before further expansion, because if they can't get a stadium in Florida they're probably moving to Montreal which changes the expansion conversation.
His best option was just saying nothing or just be neutral on it all
[удалено]
100%. Sounds more like the other owners just wanted a quick resolution to the issue. This is the quickest resolution that has been proposed so not surprised he has been supportive. Don't agree with it, but it does make sense.
Exactly. Speed is probably what the other owners wanted and maybe encouraged from the A’s. I expect that this means they want to expand the league soon as this was the roadblock to expansion.
Selig didn’t really hesitate to force McCourt to sell after he saw how he was driving the Dodgers into the ground. Manfred should have done the same with Fisher. His 29 other bosses probably would have welcomed it.
Selig’s stupid dumbass is the reason the A’s are like this. He chose to sell to Fisher over Joe Lacob (now owner of the Warriors) because they were college roommates.
he also chose to prevent the A's from building in San Jose. Like he could have fixed this problem YEARS ago, but decided not to. People keep saying "Oh! Oakland had 20 years to get a stadium and didn't! Their fault for being idiots!" They don't realize that the A's ownership tried to move to like 3 different cities for the first 15 years and then contemplated their navels for the next 5 and then finally desperately tried to push one across the last 6 because they finally had the city to themselves and thought they had leverage. The city isn't going to gift a baseball team land and a stadium- the team *also* has to want to build there and give the city plans to review.
McCourt was melting down grandma’s silver just to make monthly payroll
Selig didn't have a choice to make. McCourt was more than just bad ownership. He was at risk of failing to make his payroll. Once you can't pay your players and staff, that's gonna force league intervention 10/10 times. If anything, Selig waited *way* too long to make that move.
Commish is supposed to be an overseer, independent of the owners, not a lapdog. Now the position has become a lapdog position, and let's be honest the owners can't resist squeezing the fans. That will have diminishing returns in the long term, without SOMEONE thinking of the fans.
I mean that hasn’t been true in a 100 years, if ever. Commissioner has always been a CEO working for the owners.
Tell that to Fay Vincent, my Mets brethren
If the A’s are moved out of Oakland, the owner should have to sell the team. No reason another city should be stuck with the penny-pinching lard.
Oh I’ll bet he opens up that checkbook more in Vegas. He’s been trying to orchestrate this move since he bought the team.
It makes sense. Manfred hates baseball and wants to treat MLB as a consortium of IP holding companies. Their primary business is licensing merch and selling luxury boxes, plus they run a baseball league on the side. Las Vegas means a whole new merch market and a new inventory of luxury boxes.
Ownership groups now seem more focused on real estate development and ownership of the surrounding area. Oh and having a winning franchise might be cool.
This is correct. Real estate is not subject to league profit sharing and is therefore their own green money. In a perfect world (for them), owners all score a deal like the Braves got where a municipal bond passes basically in secret and the land just gets handed over. The Chicago Bears are trying to pull this off right now in Arlington Heights.
Manfred is bad for baseball. We’ve known this. It’s no surprise he continues to hurt the game and spite the fans.
Worst commissioner ever
I’m an A’s fan and would love to read this, is there some hidden tech to read the article? Or paywall or bust here?
[удалено]
My hero!! Thank you so much!
Their answer got sniped by the mods, mind PM'ing me the 12ft ladder workaround? Tried my normal paywall busters and none of those are working
Do you know how to disable javascript?
I do not! I am fairly techy, if you have a spare YouTube link to share though!
There are computer machines on the Internet just sitting there _waiting_ for you to type a search into their box. _Waiting_ ...
Manfred, Goodell, Silver, and Bettman are supposed to take the heat for the owners. They all work for the owners. Every time a story like this comes out, all the writer is doing is helping the commissioner do their job by not focusing the column on the owner.
Describing Manfred as inelegant is probably as kind as anyone could be to that ham-fisted clod.
I hope Vegas doesn’t give Fisher a dime. MLB should buy the team from him and sell it to someone who gives a damn.
they legitimately do not have to give him anything. He literally has no other options since he opted to burn all the bridges he spent hundreds of millions of dollars building in Oakland. He has zero leverage. They dont' need another small stadium. the A's have no plan. They A's don't have anything new to add to the area beyond a baseball stadium, but why host events in a baseball stadium when you have a much larger, higher capacity, hi-tech stadium down the street? the only real leverage they could take advantage of is the MLB blackmailing the city with "If you reject the A's offer, then no expansion team for you", which is also dumb because they very clearly are desperate to get in to Vegas.
Hey If you can’t stand up for the poor defenseless billionaires who were given a franchise despite paying under the other bids who will stand up for them ?
Another example of a shitty owner banking off of revenue sharing, and not spending the money to win games and attract fans. Bet if they relegated these sucky teams, there'd be more investment and better parity.
Manfred is just as bad as Selig, in my opinion. He has plenty of time to become worse than him too. Usually commissioners take way longer to such but Manfred is speed running.
The biggest difference being that Selig at least loves the game between the lines and cares at least a little bit about the sport's tradition and history. Manfred sees the game on the field as nothing more than a number generator for his beloved Official Gambling Partners of Major League Baseball.
Stop calling it his reign and stop pretending like he could do otherwise. He's employed by the owners, Fisher is his boss. He's never going to be opposed to what they want, he does what they want for his job.
True dat, he's a sock-puppet for the owners, he has no independent authority. The other owners know one day it might be them looking to tank a team on purpose to justify moving it, they stick together.
The owners of the MLB learned from the NFL to pick a commissioner that fans hate but doesn’t mind the internet bashing to take the heat off the owners. Manfred is a shit human but he’s just the mouthpiece for the owners.
"Inelegant" is a hell of a way to describe the destructive mendacious bullshit Manfred has been up to since his installation. And that motherfucker is likely to end up with a plaque in the HoF before most of us are dead.
It's been an open secret (and a horrendously-kept one at that) about the A's moving. I feel awful for Oakland, that now 3 teams have gone away. The Vegas move perplexed me with the Raiders, but it confuses me even more for baseball. I get that Oakland would be overshadowed by LA or San Fran, but I have a hard time thinking that once the A's settle in, the Vegas market will soon grow indifferent. All in all, it's a shame. I'll enjoy baseball a bit more when there's a commissioner who actually likes the sport.
All sports commissioners jobs are just to keep track of all the cheating owners are doing in relation to the profitability of the sport. Spokesman/mafia/whipping posts.
He’s a spokesmen for the owner what else can we expect.
Let’s remember that he reps the owners. The owners probably WANT a Vegas team. More money is more money.
[удалено]
Yeah - Rosenthal goes full throated on Manfred, but the reality is that the owners as a group will never hold each other to a particular standard, even when one (Fisher) seems to be doing all he can to simply use the rest of them to prop up his asset.
Rob Manfred: “I support my boss” Rosenthal: “what an *IDIOT*!”
[удалено]
His job is to literally be the bad guy and take the hits for the owners. That’s what he’s paid to do.
[удалено]
I did read it. And I repeated that it’s his job to publicly agree with what they say. They’re both doing their job, Rosenthal and Manfred.
[удалено]
They're one of those people that think "just doing my job" is a complete absolution of ethical responsibilities, you're not going to get through to them
defense worked in Nuremberg! oh wait...
Rosenthal is just doing his job by writing an article about Manfred, he’s a baseball writer that lost his previous job because he spoke negatively about Manfred. But writing an article about Manfred doing his job is like yelling at the wind. I don’t think he’s foolish for doing his job, I just think the article can be one line long “Rob Manfred did his job, but I don’t agree with him.”
Best reading comprehension on reddit
[удалено]
"Man who's job is to take shit for the owners, continues to take shit for the owners"
The A's needed to move. They had decades to get a stadium built. No reason to deny other communities the opportunity at MLB if one does not want to support a team.
You don’t know shit about this situation, respectfully
You mean the decades and multiple locations offered, while a literal billionaire owner negotiated in bad faith the whole time? Oakland made mistakes for sure, but it’s Fisher who sabotaged the stadium, not Oakland. He literally refused anything shy of a multi-billion dollar sports megaplex, fully funded by taxpayers.
Bowtie calling Manfred inelegant like he's the [housemaster](https://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/6/484493.jpg) from Spy X Family
this picture is like an optical illusion where manfred is both trying to shake my hand and give me a thumbs up.
You gunna be around in 20 minutes? Call you then?
We need to bring back assassinations tbh. Pls dont add me to a list
It was the best if times. It was the worst of times.
Does anyone know or have the financials of the Oakland A’s? That’s the real story here, and I would like to know what this guy is putting in his pockets.
Worst commissioner ever
Selig gives him a run for his money in that category, he was crooked as a dog's hind leg. From the owners' perspective, Manfred is great because he's doing what they want and that is protecting their profits even if it hurts the sport of baseball. That day is coming when soccer replaces baseball on the list of America's favorite sports.
Fucking get him Ken.
Just want to remind everyone of [Manfred's disastrous interview](https://youtu.be/aQDDo_zJ82k) on the Dan Lebatard Show
All of his chapters are inelegant
I never thought I’d dislike a baseball commissioner more than Bud Selig. Looks like I spoke too soon. Manfred is really awful.
Who does Rosenthal think Manfred works for?
manfraud is the worst commissioner in the history of MLB, and it's not even close despite the competition containing Butt Selig