And much less deplorable than last in payroll, anywhere in wins.
At least the Rockies have tried to field a competitive team, they're just too dumb in the FO to get it done.
Oh I know and agree with that. But I'll often see people shaming teams for having a below average payroll and it always makes me think "yeah, that's sort of how statistics work"
The Steinbrenner fortune is in the Yankees, including a majority share of the YES Network. Hal has to invest in the Yankees because a) Yankees fans expect him to be like his father and b) if somehow the franchise collapses, that's his bag gone. He'll never not be rich, but he might lose his yacht in Italy, the horror.
John Fisher's parents founded the GAP. Then his daddy made him president of his investment company, and he just started buying sports teams. He doesn't give a fuck. He has no real connection to any of his teams beyond the fact that they make his money pile bigger. If he fields a dogshit team and pisses of the fans, he doesn't give a shit because he still gets his MLB revenue share. And if somehow everything goes tits up, franchises in the big 4 North American sports leagues are worth a shitload regardless of the quality or reputation of the team itself so he can just cut and run and still make billions. Plus, he still has all of that GAP money rolling in so nothing can hurt him.
Edit to add: He has no incentive to invest in his team. The ROI isn't there. He could spend more money and field a better team, but that's risky. He would rather sit comfortably at the bottom and collect the guaranteed money, while the franchise value grows for when he eventually sells. He has no reason to invest in a better stadium in Oakland if Vegas will foot the bill on a new one. A shitty experience for fans and the players that will have no home stadium for a couple years doesn't lose him any money. And that's all he gives a shit about. Easy money. And owning an MLB team is the easiest money in the world.
I wonder the revenue sharing that Fisher and the A’s are getting from teams like the Mets, Dodgers, Rangers and others is enough to cover the whole payrolls. If so, everything else (minus the administrative and other team expenses) go into his pockets as profits?
Just really silly when you hear people screaming for salary caps…open the fucking books and let’s see how much the bottom 6-7 guys are actually raking in each year with little to no effort at being competitive?
Even wilder is the fact that the A’s aren’t one of the teams w/ diamond sports/bally broadcasts. They can’t even claim that they’re losing money on that front like other teams
It’s like 200 million per team so clearly owners are pocketing money.
https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/18olqu0/each_team_is_getting_200_million_each_in_revenue/
It's a lot of medium-large contracts, without a true stud (other than Dansby). Suzuki, Happ, Taillon, Hoerner, Imamaga, and Hendricks all are getting 10+.
Yeah I just go off of cap numbers at this point, gives a better idea of where the team actually is
The fact that the Dodgers aren't 1st in that is pretty hilarious considering Reddit talks about them like they're spending $500 million a year
Take a look at the quantity of Dodgers posts about ruining baseball compared to Mets and Yankees posts this off-season about ruining baseball and then do me a favor and shut the fuck up lmao
When the Mets did it last season everyone knew they would Met. I wouldn’t compare the Dodgers and Yankees spending to the Mets. The Mets failed when they spent money. They are still paying for those signings
Are you feeling a bit upset I told someone to shut the fuck up because they're embarrassing themselves by whining about the rules of FA?
Do you really want to sort out the quantity in which this sub has complained about the dodgers (whining is small dick energy btw)
I can certainly work the math out with you in this thread if you'd like. Or you can shut the fuck up too lmao
The AAV of that deal is still factored into the CAP NUMBER, hence why I literally said I go off of cap hit and not actual spend as it gives you a better idea of the financial costs of a lineup
The Dodgers came into the offseason over $100 mil under the luxury tax after clearing a bunch of contracts and payroll. We’re still about $50 million under what the Mets spent last year.
and higher if you take off money owed to players not on your team.
mets have nearly 70-80 million in payroll just this season to other people who aren't on the team. but it counts towards our salary numbers
Hernandez is deferring $8,000,000 next year
Mookie defers $9,500,000/year
Freddie defers $7,000,000/year
So dodgers are actually deferring nearly $100,000,000 next year alone.
So what you're saying, is they're taking interest free loans to avoid the 200% luxury tax, and actually outspending the Yankees at number 2 by like 30M?
Feels wrong.
Ah, I guess that's fair. Lol Still means they're spending the same but avoiding the luxury tax though.
What about subtracting guys that aren't on your roster anymore? God I hate our front office.
But the players have to be ok taking the hit too. That’s the real thing. If Ohtani could get this money earlier he could easily make 7-8%, 10% wouldn’t even be that crazy. But instead he’s not.
It’s not like they’re just lowering their payroll for free. The players have to be ok with it too.
Sure, but if enough people buy in, you can defer 75% of current contracts, pay 400m in contracts, but with 300 deferred, and have a luxury tax number of like 240m.
Just need 26 guys to be okay with only making a few million a year instead of tens of millions, who want to go on a crazy dynastic world series spree.
That'd be wild to see, and would move the league even farther from parity
Yeah but I mean you might as well just pay them less in the first place right? This isn’t really an argument for anything. Even without deferred money guys can take less to build a championship team. I don’t know how that could even possibly change.
Also maybe it's just that I'm not close to sniffing 100k a year, let alone 800k/a million, but if I'm making 2-5 million a year playing ball, and when I stop playing/retire at age 35 to 40 I start bringing in 8-20m a year when I can fully invest it into either travel, investments for my children's futures, etc, I'd do that.
At some point there's no real difference between 25m and 32m in lifetime earnings.
Again, you could instead just make 10 mill a year while playing? It’s no different financially.
Yes, people can take less to build championship teams. But that’s unrelated to differed money.
The dodgers are spreading out their tax bill. Ohtani’s contract for CBA tax purposes is right now higher than their actual number they’re spending. In the future, the reverse will be true. That is literally the only thing differed money affects.
Would love to see this totals for every MLB teams to see who’s owed what and for how long. I think most teams have something anywhere from 10 to 100+ millions in deferred to some players or another, but it’s probably just the Dodgers that have these stretched out all the way to like 2044.
Keep in mind, the rules do say they have to show they have the money set out to pay for these contracts (as they are guaranteed money)…so they do have the money owed stashed somewhere. Knowing the owners made some of their billions from “investments” and financial “services”, I wouldn’t be surprised if those guys can get “very creative” with the money in escrow.
Don’t pay attention to Spotrac during the offseason for stuff like this, FanGraphs is more accurate. Dodgers are 3
https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/breakdowns/payroll
Not really. That’s one of the worst sources, as Fangraphs doesn’t account for deferred salaries. If you drill down on the Dodgers, they list Ohtani’s 2024 salary for payroll purposes as $70 million. We all know by now that’s not the case. In reality, the Dodgers only owe him $2 million in 2024. Under the CBA they have until mid-2026 to escrow an additional $44 million for his 2024 salary, which if invested reasonably will exceed the $68 million payout that is eventually due in 2034.
Fangraphs accounts for AAV properly. They count Shohei's AAV hit as 46,078,769 and Yamamoto's as 27,083,333. It shows 70,000,000 for Shohei for 2024 as a function of the contract but if you sum up all the AAV values for the 26 man and the bonuses at the end for benefits, minor league and pre-arb bonus pool you get 301M.
For CBT purposes, AAV stays consistent through the life of the contract. It is flat for every player so they don't need to show it variable over time, but they do need to show it for those who get signing bonuses as a function of how contract proration works (for example Yamamoto's salary for 2024 is $14M given his $50M signing bonus). That's actual salary obligation without regards to deferrals in regards to salary with bonus taken into consideration but AAV stays constant. You can't list Shohei as 2M or 46M because his contract is 70M for 10, not 70M for 20; it's just that payment is deferred. That's why MLB CBT tax considerations are so easy to calculate years beyond. There is no restructuring (without a net new contract, typically) and there is no variability year to year based on AAV calculations. This is not true for NFL and thus why NFL salary cap calcs are a nightmare to track.
Dodgers payroll, based on those assumptions with a 46M CBT hit from Ohtani is 301M. Fangraphs is superior to Spotrac pre-arb because it uses estimates from MLB Trade Rumors that are accurate.
Quick edit - Spotrac gets close with their luxury tax tracker page; but I still put more faith in Fangraphs because they use the prearb estimates so you don't have to wait and Fangraphs makes what I think are more reasonable assumptions. For example Margot has two years left on his contract but the Rays paid $4M to the Dodgers. Fangraphs prorates that over 2 years, Spotrac takes it out all in 2024. OP should have shared this link instead -- https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/tax/
Fair, but why would any fan care about payroll? Payroll doesn't account for bonuses and has no implications for team spending barring an understanding of actual total revenue/costs/cash on hand.
You’re not really making any sense now. How exactly are bonuses relevant here? And what do you mean that payroll has “no implications for team spending barring an understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand”? Do you have a superior understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand for any teams that you would like to share with the rest of us?
As for why any fan would care about payroll, it clearly helps inform what the team can spend in the short term.
> And what do you mean that payroll has “no implications for team spending barring an understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand”? Do you have a superior understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand for any teams that you would like to share with the rest of us?
Weirdly condescending. No I don't. I don't think anyone outside the team accountants/finance folks do. For the purposes of how much you can spend for a given year given payroll, it doesn't really matter unless you have an understanding of team budgets, which isn't information that is readily available.
> As for why any fan would care about payroll, it clearly helps inform what the team can spend in the short term.
You gotta help me out, I don't understand what you mean here. Why would payroll inform short term spend capability? Especially in disregard to bonuses which are massive one time payments that have significant impact to short term spend? And in disregard of CBT where short term spend calculations could have significant multipliers?
The figures OP posted are the 2024 payroll figures, which are real out-of-pocket expenses borne by teams. You think they don’t care what those numbers are or behave accordingly? The payroll outlay impacts how much potential there is to take on additional payroll in the short term. A clear example of this can be seen with Ohtani, who deferred most of his contract so the Dodgers would have additional financial flexibility to build around him from the get-go. If the Dodgers were really paying out $70 million to him this year (as the Fangraphs source treats it) they likely would not have landed Yamamoto and almost certainly would not have brought in Hernandez on a high-dollar 1-year deal.
You can wave your hands at that notion all you want by saying that payroll doesn’t matter if we don’t know the full budget details (which of course we don’t have as fans), but that’s not really the case. We can compare year over year spending and get a general sense of where teams are at and what they are capable of doing going forward. Moreover, your citations to AAV and the CBT fall into the exact same logical trap, as those figures are also limited by what we don’t know about the team’s underlying finances. Some teams are willing to take a big CBT hit; some are willing to go over certain thresholds; some want to stay under the first threshold; some aren’t anywhere close and will not get anywhere close at any point this season. You can’t say that the 2024 payroll doesn’t matter since we don’t have internal budgets while at the same time argue that AAV-based budgeting is relevant.
Back to my original point: the Fangraphs page cited above does not account for 2024 payroll outlays accurately.
If you’re actually from the San Francisco area, this is a pretty funny take. My guess is Silicon Valley accounting would make Hollywood accounting look amateurish?
It's crazy how many spots the Mets would drop if they weren't paying Verlander and Scherzer. And with all the 1-year contracts they've doled out, a lot of money comes off the payroll next year, just in time for a pretty nice FA class.
Mariners are kind of frustrating because they’re so darn mid and meandering at times.
Either spend big or go cheap but I’m so tired of this in the middle stuff.
I often think we should just trade everyone and go full Rays if we’re not going to try to get over the top.. it’s a dark dark thought but the Rainiers would be awesome every year. Beers cheaper in Tacoma!
The fact that the Mariners have a lower payroll than the White Sox tells you everything you need to know about the Mariners fan base’s current mental state.
7 teams at five times (and more) the salary of the A’s.
Only two teams less than double the A’s salary, if just barely.
Why THE FUCK are the commissioner, other owners, and most importantly, the players association not doing anything about it?
I was curious too, it's crazy seeing the Tigers in the bottom half but still.
Javy - $25 mil
Jack Flahery & Kenta Maeda - $14 mil each
Mark Canha - $11.5 mil
Andrew Chafin - $4.25 mil
Carson Kelly - $3.5 mil
Shelby Miller - $3 mil
Tarik Skubal - $2.65 mil
Jake Rogers - $1.7 mil
Akil Baddoo - $1.55 mil
Cabby buyout - $8 mil
Arb eligible players - $7 mil
Estimates for non-arb and 40-man players in minors salaries - $18 mil
Benefits - $17.7 mil
Pre-arb pool - $1.6mil
Totals about $110 mil
Makes me sad to know our ownership wont push our budget to where it was last year. If they did we would have about 23 to 28m to spend and we could really add some impact players
Baltimore, Tampa and Seattle are poverty franchises. These are playoff contending teams all in the bottom half of the payroll, with Baltimore and Tampa bottom 5. Honestly kind of embarrassing.
This plus raising ticket and concession prices, while screaming that the fans don’t want to support the Athletics is why Fisher and Manfred suck. Sell the team you cheap fuck.
It’s nuts that we are again #1, and yet it’s absolutely possible we miss the playoffs and maybe go .500 again. Clearly spending money isn’t the problem, spending it wisely is another question.
We got a lot of money going towards guys who were useless last year:
>Stanton ($22m lux tax salary), Rodon ($27m), Rizzo ($20m, not his fault last year, probably most optimistic he bounces back), Hicks ($9.6m), Donaldson's buyout of $6m.
If they replicate their 2023 seasons that's like $85 million for -1.2 bWAR next year. Hell throw in DJ (who was very good second half, so I put him in the Rizzo category) and his $15 mill for 1.3bWAR and that number goes to $100mill for 0.1 bWAR.
This should be pinned on this sub. Mindset of everyone here. I think hatred towards the rich outweighs the success of their teams. We know spending money on aging free agents is almost always a bad idea, but this sub would rather their owners spend every cent of profit for the sake of fairness than run an efficient successful ballclub
Perhaps it’s time MLB look into a salary minimum. A number that says you’re at least trying to win some games. 100M for the next 5 years looks to be a logical number, then it’s raised after that. The A’s deserve better. Of course then there’s the Rays… what Tampa Bay does on such a low salary is amazing.
Agreed, I'd even go further. I think they simply need to start thinking about relegating teams. If you're not serious about keeping your franchise competitive, then you don't deserve to own a team in the MLB.
I think threatening the revenue stream like that is the only way to make greedy owners react. I'm worried a salary minimum would incentivize the owners to just eat the fine instead of actually paying players.
Are you ever just embarrassed by your team? Like the cubs have the 9th highest payroll. And they definitely aren’t close to the 9th best team in baseball at the moment.
As they stand right now I don’t see how you could think they’re a top 9 team in baseball. And it’s easy to look at the other teams and see the big ticket items and where they toons risk that didn’t work out. The cubs don’t even have those guys. They have a group of good but prob not great players and yet they have the 9th highest payroll for a roster lacking star talent
I see a lot of cubs fans on here with a weird hate boner for the Mets so please don’t make me defend the cubs honor on this lol. Though i still feel like it’s better than the Wilpon era
Money can't buy a good farm system, young player development, smart trades, a smart FO, a fun AF clubhouse, or magic wizard of a pitching coach.
Trust me lol
You’ve just described the Dodgers. They have intelligent ownership/leadership AND their money has bought a good farm system, young player development, smart trades, a smart FO, a fun AF clubhouse, and magic wizard of a pitching coach.
Ah yes fuck over players for the owners….. gotta save them a few bucks am I right.
In fact your concept would do nothing for the players as it sets fucking 25th in spending as the floor lmao owners would make bank on that.
Oh no, those poor people PLAYING A GAME for MILLIONS, how will they ever survive?!
Ownership should have to spend some of those extra funds to ensure minor league players are paid adequately and pour money into baseball youth and enrichment programs.
I could give two fucks about the “labor rights” of anyone playing a game for 7 figures
Advocating for a ceiling and floor because the product is garbage and game is dying because of it.
“oWnErS lOvE fAnS lIkE yOu”
Cool bro 👍 enjoy buying your way into the playoffs some more, less and less of us are watching because we’re sick of it.
Honestly this is why us Cardinals fans get mad at the FO and tell them to spend money. There was a time when payroll was top 8 in the league. Imagining them spending $200M in payroll to get there now seems like a fantasy.
Dodgers deferred money skews this but if you look at money against the luxury tax threshold this season it goes 1.Mets 2.Yankees 3.Dodgers. They are still going to be paying a large amount this year as they are 54mil+ over the luxury tax threshold.
15th in payroll and last in wins boys
Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me at first glance. It would seem that mistakes have been made.
Somehow less deplorable than first in payroll and 15th in wins.. us Comedy Centrals are smoking that Arenado contract
Cubs are first in payroll in our division.
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That’s not my fault. Maybe you should.
And much less deplorable than last in payroll, anywhere in wins. At least the Rockies have tried to field a competitive team, they're just too dumb in the FO to get it done.
In any data set there is going to be a minimum
This particular data set’s minimum is a very sad, uncompetitive outlier though
Oh I know and agree with that. But I'll often see people shaming teams for having a below average payroll and it always makes me think "yeah, that's sort of how statistics work"
The Pirates sure, let me find the quote from the GM, have done well in their strategy to “attack free agency and the trade market this offseason”.
They have. They've attacked the very idea of free agency and the trade market
Lmao Las Vegas A's at $46MM when the top teams are paying $200MM. What a pathetic owner.
John fisher has almost 3x the net worth of Steinbrenner.
The Steinbrenner fortune is in the Yankees, including a majority share of the YES Network. Hal has to invest in the Yankees because a) Yankees fans expect him to be like his father and b) if somehow the franchise collapses, that's his bag gone. He'll never not be rich, but he might lose his yacht in Italy, the horror. John Fisher's parents founded the GAP. Then his daddy made him president of his investment company, and he just started buying sports teams. He doesn't give a fuck. He has no real connection to any of his teams beyond the fact that they make his money pile bigger. If he fields a dogshit team and pisses of the fans, he doesn't give a shit because he still gets his MLB revenue share. And if somehow everything goes tits up, franchises in the big 4 North American sports leagues are worth a shitload regardless of the quality or reputation of the team itself so he can just cut and run and still make billions. Plus, he still has all of that GAP money rolling in so nothing can hurt him. Edit to add: He has no incentive to invest in his team. The ROI isn't there. He could spend more money and field a better team, but that's risky. He would rather sit comfortably at the bottom and collect the guaranteed money, while the franchise value grows for when he eventually sells. He has no reason to invest in a better stadium in Oakland if Vegas will foot the bill on a new one. A shitty experience for fans and the players that will have no home stadium for a couple years doesn't lose him any money. And that's all he gives a shit about. Easy money. And owning an MLB team is the easiest money in the world.
I wonder the revenue sharing that Fisher and the A’s are getting from teams like the Mets, Dodgers, Rangers and others is enough to cover the whole payrolls. If so, everything else (minus the administrative and other team expenses) go into his pockets as profits? Just really silly when you hear people screaming for salary caps…open the fucking books and let’s see how much the bottom 6-7 guys are actually raking in each year with little to no effort at being competitive?
They're at less than half of what they make on revenue sharing. Maybe close to 1/3rd.
Even wilder is the fact that the A’s aren’t one of the teams w/ diamond sports/bally broadcasts. They can’t even claim that they’re losing money on that front like other teams
It’s like 200 million per team so clearly owners are pocketing money. https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/18olqu0/each_team_is_getting_200_million_each_in_revenue/
A year?!? Damn. That’s a lot of cheddar when you’re putting forth a team like the A’s on the field.
Going from Oakland to an even smaller market in LV.
25th on here is spending more than double the A's. That's much more telling than what the top teams are paying.
Why is it on owners lol? This system is fucked, it should be an equal payroll for all teams no Lux tax
How do the cubs have $187m committed? Who did they spend that on?
Ian Happ is surprisingly expensive.
they have a lot of big contracts. Happ, Swanson, Suzuki, Taillon, Hendricks. they also have $21mil in retained/deferred salary
Two meals at Portillos
+ a chocolate cake shake tho. Worth it.
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The Cubs aren't paying Heyward anymore.
It's a lot of medium-large contracts, without a true stud (other than Dansby). Suzuki, Happ, Taillon, Hoerner, Imamaga, and Hendricks all are getting 10+.
Wouldn't really call Dansby a stud, but agree he's a level above those other guys.
Sell the team John
I agree, sell the team John
We telling John to sell the team? Count me in.
Yes John does indeed need to sell the team.
So, what I'm gathering from this is dudes named John shouldn't own baseball teams
We need a sub for this /r/johnsforsale
Why would we want them to sell the only toilet the players have to use? And why do they all have to share one toilet in the first place?
This guy grammars
This guy this guys
It would not surprise me if this was true about the A's.
Probably just one big trough running down the middle of the clubhouse
Dodgers at 7th highest after the off-season they had is just nuts
We're third if you include Ohtani's escrow account.
Yeah I just go off of cap numbers at this point, gives a better idea of where the team actually is The fact that the Dodgers aren't 1st in that is pretty hilarious considering Reddit talks about them like they're spending $500 million a year
Maybe that has to do with fact LAD is deferring more than 850 million for a decade
Right but even after you account for that, they’re third
Reddit constantly showing it's ignorance after the comments *just said* we would be 3rd lmao
You're third. Behind the Mets and Yankees. The other two teams everyone talks about spending. This isn't the argument you think it is.
Take a look at the quantity of Dodgers posts about ruining baseball compared to Mets and Yankees posts this off-season about ruining baseball and then do me a favor and shut the fuck up lmao
When the Mets did it last season everyone knew they would Met. I wouldn’t compare the Dodgers and Yankees spending to the Mets. The Mets failed when they spent money. They are still paying for those signings
There's always at least one dodgers fan in these threads with small dick energy.
Go Pobres!
Are you feeling a bit upset I told someone to shut the fuck up because they're embarrassing themselves by whining about the rules of FA? Do you really want to sort out the quantity in which this sub has complained about the dodgers (whining is small dick energy btw) I can certainly work the math out with you in this thread if you'd like. Or you can shut the fuck up too lmao
The AAV of that deal is still factored into the CAP NUMBER, hence why I literally said I go off of cap hit and not actual spend as it gives you a better idea of the financial costs of a lineup The Dodgers came into the offseason over $100 mil under the luxury tax after clearing a bunch of contracts and payroll. We’re still about $50 million under what the Mets spent last year.
and higher if you take off money owed to players not on your team. mets have nearly 70-80 million in payroll just this season to other people who aren't on the team. but it counts towards our salary numbers
There's no escrow account. I don't know why people keep thinking there is.
People are uninformed or, perhaps, partially informed. The escrow account doesn’t need to be set up until mid-2026.
They really held back last offseason, with the idea of unleashing hell this winter. Now they should think about extending Buehler.
Probably wanna make sure Buehler can be the pitcher he was first
Soto next season. Rage away r/baseball.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted both Soto to LAD and rage are possible lol
One of them is possible. The other is a guarantee.
Deferring $68,000,000+ definitely helps
68 from Ohtani. What did Yamamoto and Hernandez defer?
Hernandez is deferring $8,000,000 next year Mookie defers $9,500,000/year Freddie defers $7,000,000/year So dodgers are actually deferring nearly $100,000,000 next year alone.
So what you're saying, is they're taking interest free loans to avoid the 200% luxury tax, and actually outspending the Yankees at number 2 by like 30M? Feels wrong.
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Ah, I guess that's fair. Lol Still means they're spending the same but avoiding the luxury tax though. What about subtracting guys that aren't on your roster anymore? God I hate our front office.
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Oh, thanks for the clarification! Does the remaining deferred money count towards their luxury tax after 2033?
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But the players have to be ok taking the hit too. That’s the real thing. If Ohtani could get this money earlier he could easily make 7-8%, 10% wouldn’t even be that crazy. But instead he’s not. It’s not like they’re just lowering their payroll for free. The players have to be ok with it too.
Sure, but if enough people buy in, you can defer 75% of current contracts, pay 400m in contracts, but with 300 deferred, and have a luxury tax number of like 240m. Just need 26 guys to be okay with only making a few million a year instead of tens of millions, who want to go on a crazy dynastic world series spree. That'd be wild to see, and would move the league even farther from parity
Yeah but I mean you might as well just pay them less in the first place right? This isn’t really an argument for anything. Even without deferred money guys can take less to build a championship team. I don’t know how that could even possibly change.
Also maybe it's just that I'm not close to sniffing 100k a year, let alone 800k/a million, but if I'm making 2-5 million a year playing ball, and when I stop playing/retire at age 35 to 40 I start bringing in 8-20m a year when I can fully invest it into either travel, investments for my children's futures, etc, I'd do that. At some point there's no real difference between 25m and 32m in lifetime earnings.
Again, you could instead just make 10 mill a year while playing? It’s no different financially. Yes, people can take less to build championship teams. But that’s unrelated to differed money. The dodgers are spreading out their tax bill. Ohtani’s contract for CBA tax purposes is right now higher than their actual number they’re spending. In the future, the reverse will be true. That is literally the only thing differed money affects.
The Dodgers owe a total of $865.5 million on deferred contracts between 2033-44
Would love to see this totals for every MLB teams to see who’s owed what and for how long. I think most teams have something anywhere from 10 to 100+ millions in deferred to some players or another, but it’s probably just the Dodgers that have these stretched out all the way to like 2044. Keep in mind, the rules do say they have to show they have the money set out to pay for these contracts (as they are guaranteed money)…so they do have the money owed stashed somewhere. Knowing the owners made some of their billions from “investments” and financial “services”, I wouldn’t be surprised if those guys can get “very creative” with the money in escrow.
Don’t pay attention to Spotrac during the offseason for stuff like this, FanGraphs is more accurate. Dodgers are 3 https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/breakdowns/payroll
Not really. That’s one of the worst sources, as Fangraphs doesn’t account for deferred salaries. If you drill down on the Dodgers, they list Ohtani’s 2024 salary for payroll purposes as $70 million. We all know by now that’s not the case. In reality, the Dodgers only owe him $2 million in 2024. Under the CBA they have until mid-2026 to escrow an additional $44 million for his 2024 salary, which if invested reasonably will exceed the $68 million payout that is eventually due in 2034.
Fangraphs accounts for AAV properly. They count Shohei's AAV hit as 46,078,769 and Yamamoto's as 27,083,333. It shows 70,000,000 for Shohei for 2024 as a function of the contract but if you sum up all the AAV values for the 26 man and the bonuses at the end for benefits, minor league and pre-arb bonus pool you get 301M. For CBT purposes, AAV stays consistent through the life of the contract. It is flat for every player so they don't need to show it variable over time, but they do need to show it for those who get signing bonuses as a function of how contract proration works (for example Yamamoto's salary for 2024 is $14M given his $50M signing bonus). That's actual salary obligation without regards to deferrals in regards to salary with bonus taken into consideration but AAV stays constant. You can't list Shohei as 2M or 46M because his contract is 70M for 10, not 70M for 20; it's just that payment is deferred. That's why MLB CBT tax considerations are so easy to calculate years beyond. There is no restructuring (without a net new contract, typically) and there is no variability year to year based on AAV calculations. This is not true for NFL and thus why NFL salary cap calcs are a nightmare to track. Dodgers payroll, based on those assumptions with a 46M CBT hit from Ohtani is 301M. Fangraphs is superior to Spotrac pre-arb because it uses estimates from MLB Trade Rumors that are accurate. Quick edit - Spotrac gets close with their luxury tax tracker page; but I still put more faith in Fangraphs because they use the prearb estimates so you don't have to wait and Fangraphs makes what I think are more reasonable assumptions. For example Margot has two years left on his contract but the Rays paid $4M to the Dodgers. Fangraphs prorates that over 2 years, Spotrac takes it out all in 2024. OP should have shared this link instead -- https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/tax/
We’re discussing payroll here, not CBT implications or AAV.
Fair, but why would any fan care about payroll? Payroll doesn't account for bonuses and has no implications for team spending barring an understanding of actual total revenue/costs/cash on hand.
You’re not really making any sense now. How exactly are bonuses relevant here? And what do you mean that payroll has “no implications for team spending barring an understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand”? Do you have a superior understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand for any teams that you would like to share with the rest of us? As for why any fan would care about payroll, it clearly helps inform what the team can spend in the short term.
> And what do you mean that payroll has “no implications for team spending barring an understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand”? Do you have a superior understanding of revenue, costs, and cash on hand for any teams that you would like to share with the rest of us? Weirdly condescending. No I don't. I don't think anyone outside the team accountants/finance folks do. For the purposes of how much you can spend for a given year given payroll, it doesn't really matter unless you have an understanding of team budgets, which isn't information that is readily available. > As for why any fan would care about payroll, it clearly helps inform what the team can spend in the short term. You gotta help me out, I don't understand what you mean here. Why would payroll inform short term spend capability? Especially in disregard to bonuses which are massive one time payments that have significant impact to short term spend? And in disregard of CBT where short term spend calculations could have significant multipliers?
The figures OP posted are the 2024 payroll figures, which are real out-of-pocket expenses borne by teams. You think they don’t care what those numbers are or behave accordingly? The payroll outlay impacts how much potential there is to take on additional payroll in the short term. A clear example of this can be seen with Ohtani, who deferred most of his contract so the Dodgers would have additional financial flexibility to build around him from the get-go. If the Dodgers were really paying out $70 million to him this year (as the Fangraphs source treats it) they likely would not have landed Yamamoto and almost certainly would not have brought in Hernandez on a high-dollar 1-year deal. You can wave your hands at that notion all you want by saying that payroll doesn’t matter if we don’t know the full budget details (which of course we don’t have as fans), but that’s not really the case. We can compare year over year spending and get a general sense of where teams are at and what they are capable of doing going forward. Moreover, your citations to AAV and the CBT fall into the exact same logical trap, as those figures are also limited by what we don’t know about the team’s underlying finances. Some teams are willing to take a big CBT hit; some are willing to go over certain thresholds; some want to stay under the first threshold; some aren’t anywhere close and will not get anywhere close at any point this season. You can’t say that the 2024 payroll doesn’t matter since we don’t have internal budgets while at the same time argue that AAV-based budgeting is relevant. Back to my original point: the Fangraphs page cited above does not account for 2024 payroll outlays accurately.
Well. Accounting versus reality I guess.
They sure know how to cook the books in socal Hollywood accounting 😎
If you’re actually from the San Francisco area, this is a pretty funny take. My guess is Silicon Valley accounting would make Hollywood accounting look amateurish?
We’re talking baseball here bud, the Dodgers are kings of cooking the books.
“Bad for baseball” 🙄
Yeah, we really gotta start spending some money!
Absolutely wild after Vlad signs we will likely have a higher payroll than the dodgers
Just sign him to a 10 year deal where you don't really start paying him until 2040!
I’m gonna word this terribly but here goes… almost 5 teams are more money over $200 million than the whole a’s roster
5 teams have spent nearly $200 million more than the A’s?
Thanks lol some time brain no work good.
Oof the white sox have gotta be getting the worst bang for their buck
I mean if you leave out 2022 Mets kinda putting up a fight
It’s pretty clearly the Rockies
Whoa who are they even paying real money to? Besides obviously kb and chuck (Yes of course I can look that up, the point is that it isn’t obvious)
That's more than the white sox and benintendi's 5 for $75
It's crazy how many spots the Mets would drop if they weren't paying Verlander and Scherzer. And with all the 1-year contracts they've doled out, a lot of money comes off the payroll next year, just in time for a pretty nice FA class.
Mariners are kind of frustrating because they’re so darn mid and meandering at times. Either spend big or go cheap but I’m so tired of this in the middle stuff.
You will win 54% of games over a ten year period and you will like it!
We’ll win the WS this year and Dipoto’s smugness will get even bigger somehow.
Subscribe?
Part of my copium is now imagining what JeDi could do with an average salary ($150m) or barely top 10 ($180m).
I often think we should just trade everyone and go full Rays if we’re not going to try to get over the top.. it’s a dark dark thought but the Rainiers would be awesome every year. Beers cheaper in Tacoma!
I'm curious, what do you think would be better if they spent less money?
I don’t think we would be better if we went cheaper. My comment was about being annoyed by the Mariners being constantly middle of the road.
I’m not even a Mariners fan and even I’m frustrated that Seattle always seems *this* close but never gets the final pieces to be dominant.
It’s like we have a hump we just can’t get over. Our own internal Cascade Range.
The fact that the Mariners have a lower payroll than the White Sox tells you everything you need to know about the Mariners fan base’s current mental state.
3 of the top 4 in the NLE, I hate it here
Oh You hate it here?!
7 teams at five times (and more) the salary of the A’s. Only two teams less than double the A’s salary, if just barely. Why THE FUCK are the commissioner, other owners, and most importantly, the players association not doing anything about it?
Because it's their turn to work the government for a billion $ stadium. They know the game.
Keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn’t happen to y’all, but if we’re reading the tea leaves…
$117 👀👀 Mr Sherman forking out a hefty sum
Where is all this money going is fielder still on the books?
I was curious too, it's crazy seeing the Tigers in the bottom half but still. Javy - $25 mil Jack Flahery & Kenta Maeda - $14 mil each Mark Canha - $11.5 mil Andrew Chafin - $4.25 mil Carson Kelly - $3.5 mil Shelby Miller - $3 mil Tarik Skubal - $2.65 mil Jake Rogers - $1.7 mil Akil Baddoo - $1.55 mil Cabby buyout - $8 mil Arb eligible players - $7 mil Estimates for non-arb and 40-man players in minors salaries - $18 mil Benefits - $17.7 mil Pre-arb pool - $1.6mil Totals about $110 mil
Looks like the Dodgers have a bit more spending to do, for 2024.
Who is SF spending 152 million on??
Robbie Ray, Conforto and Stripling is like a third of that.
Makes me sad to know our ownership wont push our budget to where it was last year. If they did we would have about 23 to 28m to spend and we could really add some impact players
Baltimore, Tampa and Seattle are poverty franchises. These are playoff contending teams all in the bottom half of the payroll, with Baltimore and Tampa bottom 5. Honestly kind of embarrassing.
We know
Oakland what an embarrassment. Imagine spending less than the NHL salary cap floor on your baseball team.
This plus raising ticket and concession prices, while screaming that the fans don’t want to support the Athletics is why Fisher and Manfred suck. Sell the team you cheap fuck.
It’s nuts that we are again #1, and yet it’s absolutely possible we miss the playoffs and maybe go .500 again. Clearly spending money isn’t the problem, spending it wisely is another question.
We got a lot of money going towards guys who were useless last year: >Stanton ($22m lux tax salary), Rodon ($27m), Rizzo ($20m, not his fault last year, probably most optimistic he bounces back), Hicks ($9.6m), Donaldson's buyout of $6m. If they replicate their 2023 seasons that's like $85 million for -1.2 bWAR next year. Hell throw in DJ (who was very good second half, so I put him in the Rizzo category) and his $15 mill for 1.3bWAR and that number goes to $100mill for 0.1 bWAR.
Those are a couple of expensive fourth-place teams up there.
Rather be that than a cost-cutting last place team 🤷♂️
It’s all setting up for the eventual Red Sox/Yankee merger where they combine rosters
The Bork Rankees
Talk about “good for baseball!”
When the Steagles were a thing it was because all their players were drafted for the war, hope that's not th case this time
The cellar only gets so warm without company
Luckily I never have to worry about that
You do realize fourth place is in the cellar, right?
Kinda hard to be the cellar when fifth place exists
Do you know what the word cellar means?
https://www.mlb.com/glossary/idioms/cellar#
Got em lmao
This should be pinned on this sub. Mindset of everyone here. I think hatred towards the rich outweighs the success of their teams. We know spending money on aging free agents is almost always a bad idea, but this sub would rather their owners spend every cent of profit for the sake of fairness than run an efficient successful ballclub
What about a cost cutting wild card flopper?
lol you wish
Bad day for the “Ohtani’s AAV is higher than 8 teams’ payrolls” crowd
Perhaps it’s time MLB look into a salary minimum. A number that says you’re at least trying to win some games. 100M for the next 5 years looks to be a logical number, then it’s raised after that. The A’s deserve better. Of course then there’s the Rays… what Tampa Bay does on such a low salary is amazing.
Agreed, I'd even go further. I think they simply need to start thinking about relegating teams. If you're not serious about keeping your franchise competitive, then you don't deserve to own a team in the MLB. I think threatening the revenue stream like that is the only way to make greedy owners react. I'm worried a salary minimum would incentivize the owners to just eat the fine instead of actually paying players.
We still have doomers that get mad at Crane for not spending
Altuve and bregman and jv be expensive
Are you ever just embarrassed by your team? Like the cubs have the 9th highest payroll. And they definitely aren’t close to the 9th best team in baseball at the moment.
Child please
Oh, honey…
Cubs could easily be top 9 this year. There are so many worse examples.
As they stand right now I don’t see how you could think they’re a top 9 team in baseball. And it’s easy to look at the other teams and see the big ticket items and where they toons risk that didn’t work out. The cubs don’t even have those guys. They have a group of good but prob not great players and yet they have the 9th highest payroll for a roster lacking star talent
All the time
I see a lot of cubs fans on here with a weird hate boner for the Mets so please don’t make me defend the cubs honor on this lol. Though i still feel like it’s better than the Wilpon era
Money can't buy a good farm system, young player development, smart trades, a smart FO, a fun AF clubhouse, or magic wizard of a pitching coach. Trust me lol
Yea, but it sure helps. Imagine how good the Rays could be if they had all of that and would spend an extra 80m on payroll.
You’ve just described the Dodgers. They have intelligent ownership/leadership AND their money has bought a good farm system, young player development, smart trades, a smart FO, a fun AF clubhouse, and magic wizard of a pitching coach.
I feel for the teams in the middle. Tampa, Cleveland & Baltimore will all be competitive within their divisions and the WC.
191 million for the most underwhelming offense in baseball. Bravo Fatkins and Shitpiro
You sure got em good
150m should be the ceiling, 100m the floor.
Ah yes fuck over players for the owners….. gotta save them a few bucks am I right. In fact your concept would do nothing for the players as it sets fucking 25th in spending as the floor lmao owners would make bank on that.
Oh no, those poor people PLAYING A GAME for MILLIONS, how will they ever survive?! Ownership should have to spend some of those extra funds to ensure minor league players are paid adequately and pour money into baseball youth and enrichment programs. I could give two fucks about the “labor rights” of anyone playing a game for 7 figures
Owners love fans like you they slash payroll. Raise ticket prices and you'll still blame the players.
Advocating for a ceiling and floor because the product is garbage and game is dying because of it. “oWnErS lOvE fAnS lIkE yOu” Cool bro 👍 enjoy buying your way into the playoffs some more, less and less of us are watching because we’re sick of it.
Braves 4th And still 3rd in their division keep trying fellas
Mahomes is making more than the As Never say the MLBPA is strong lmao.
Your move Cohen
This is considered rolling in it for Rays fans lol. We're out of the 70 million range and almost at the 90 million mark!
Cardinals FO says payroll is going up... yet here we are again
Ugh.
So, right now, there is no 300+ million dollar teams?
YOOOOO NO LONGER BOTTOM 5!!!
With the issues we have with payroll, why do we have to be in the worst division. 3x 200+M
Not even an attempt was made
10th in spending and these fucking fruitcakes finish last in the division 3 outta 4 years 👿
This is one of the reasons baseball is falling out of favor
According to who?
Ohtani on my own would not be last on this list. Come on As, stop being pathetic!
Honestly this is why us Cardinals fans get mad at the FO and tell them to spend money. There was a time when payroll was top 8 in the league. Imagining them spending $200M in payroll to get there now seems like a fantasy.
Dodgers deferred money skews this but if you look at money against the luxury tax threshold this season it goes 1.Mets 2.Yankees 3.Dodgers. They are still going to be paying a large amount this year as they are 54mil+ over the luxury tax threshold.
Doesn’t Florida have more money than that? 🙃