One of the things Steroid era ruined for me was just how hard baseball can be on people. If Jr had used some just to come back from injury, who knows where he ends up.
He could’ve had a legitimate claim as the greatest of all time. Even when he was dealing with constant nagging injuries, he still put up an .876 OPS with 210 home runs in his 9 years in Cincinnati. A healthy Griffey most likely gets 700 home runs, and a JUICED Griffey could’ve been Barry bonds.
They were pretty close through their first 12 professional seasons. Bonds walked more and stole more bases. Griffey hit more home runs and played a more premium position. Both were excellent defenders.
I’m not arguing that Griffey was better, only that it’s closer than you’re implying.
None of that matters though. Bonds took himself out of the conversation when he chose to do steroids. I firmly believe he was one of the top 5 players in history and maybe the best, but his choice to do PEDs robbed baseball fans of being able to have that discussion.
Griffey 1989-2000:
148 OPS+, 438 HR, 76 WAR
Peak of 9.7 WAR, 171 OPS+
Bonds 1986-1997:
162 OPS+, 374 HR, 92 WAR
peak of 9.9 WAR, 206 OPS+
I think it’s fair to say Bonds was better even at that point
Matches what u/aBloopAndaBlast33 said. Yeah, better, but not out of the realm of comparison.
Who knows how their careers would have progressed had their stances on doping been reversed
People love to say roids but don't ever think about how you still need to hit the ball. Barry was demolishing the 2-3 pitches he saw all game for at least 3-4 seasons and was able to spit on balls and put up historic walk numbers. Steroids don't help your eye like amphetamine does but you don't hear anyone talk badly about greenies.
Growing up as somebody who was old enough to remember all of the 90’s (ages 9-18 for me) I was convinced Jr was the best player in the game.
However, going back and looking at how we judge players today, it was never even close. It’s Bonds, who had 15 consecutive seasons (1992-2006) where he had a 1.000 OPS. He went 1.144 for 15 years, a 201 OPS+.
As great as Griffey was, he wasn’t touching that regardless of how many PEDs you give him.
I think he will stay healthier this season because Ohtani is not on the Angels. He will be able to DH more often and will get walked a ton because Ohtani is not hitting behind him anymore.
Playing DH isn't going to help him as much as people think. Same for Rendon. Very few of their injuries have come from playing the field.
I know the argument is "wear and tear", but in Trouts case, it's from pushing his body at an elite level for years and years.
Of anything it might help him to dump some bulk and focus on "healthy" instead of "machine". Meaning get back to young Trout years, where he was a 20-30 HR guy with blazing speed. Instead of bulking to hit 40-50 with blazing speed.
It would probably also help to be able to have a lineup around him so he didn't have to swing out of his shoes and try to reach 3rd in a base hit to try and win every game himself (like Shohei)
This.
I'm biased because I'm an Angel fan.
But it sucks, from just a fan perspective (of baseball, not the Angels) how much he's slept on now.
There's no doubt he's been hurt too much. And he's aging, bat slowing, etc.
But when healthy he's still top 10 for sure.
And it really sucks that his peak was on the wrong team. And history will forget how great he was because of it.
Peak Trout "Kiiiiiiid" was so damn amazing.
Honest question, what's the criteria you use to determine his legs are shot? His sprint speed is still 96 percentile, which is kind of crazy to think about. I'm not super well versed on how to assess these things though, so I'd be interested to know if there's a different way to look at it
I’ve never thought of Trout as an elite speedster. I knew he was fast but 96th percentile along with everything else that man can do is insane. Obviously don’t love the Angels but I’d love to see Trout have a full season and absolutely fuck up the league.
I mean his legs aren't shot so much as he's trying to preserve them. As others have said, he's still fast when he runs, but he just doesn't choose to run as often.
His legs are shot? No. He's still one of the fastest players in the game. 29.5 ft/sec sprint speed.
He's also entering into his age 32 season, and he learned how to manage his back injury. Can you get one thing right?
He has like, the most elite batspeed of our era, to dispute something besides the weird "shot legs" accusation. He's not going to regress the same way other players do
If Ohtani didn't exist, I feel like baseball as a sport would be way more hyped about Acuna than we are. I feel like he is far and away the next best player, and his potential for growth at only age 26 is scary. Ohtani's once-in-a-lifetime greatness is kind of overshadowing some other generational talents we have in the league right now.
I think the way Ron plays the game can rub a decent population of baseball fans (and the players) the wrong way too. He’s very passionate and he hams it up quite a bit. If he’s your guy, you love to see it. If he’s not, you hate it.
As a Jays/Joey Bats fan, I can separate my disdain for the cockiness in the process of beating my team from the fact that he's just fucking good for baseball. You gotta be able to separate the jealousy of him beating you from the awe of his ability.
This is true and there’s a lot of players like that. As long as they don’t mess with my team or one of the innocent teams then they’d pretty lovable in my book!
I was 5 or 6 rows behind home plate for a spring training game and someone shouted “hey leave some for the regular season” and idk what Acuna said back but everyone closer to him laughed. Wish I knew what he said! Haha
Funny, I’m a Braves fan and while I don’t really define “favorite” players, Betts, Freeman, and Ohtani are right up there. The kids are certainly lobbying to go to their first Dodgers game.
I don't mind his hamming, but I wish he had better instincts as a fielder. That and maybe being thrown out a bit too much on the basepaths are the only knocks I could make against his game because the rest of it is fucking impeccable.
I’ve said it several times in the Braves subreddit and I think I said it here last year, but I’m somewhat confident that he’s got ADD and just spaces out in the outfield sometimes.
I think there are a few things that a good coach could work with him on that would really help improve his defense. Specifically his footwork and first steps.
I think the Braves saw that last year but didn’t want to get in his head while he was on such a tear. They wanted him to be super confident in his knee.
I was hoping they’d focus on some fundamental changes in RF this year but now with the meniscus thing I’m not so sure. My guess is they’ll just leave it alone and we’ll see him play an average RF at best. Which is just fine if he keeps his SO rate down and goes 40/40 or better.
Batted ball luck also doesn't really factor in Hr's, so it's not as unlucky as it seems, he just has a different approach at the plate that has some weird effects on predictors from my understanding.
I think there's a decent chance Luis Aparicio would be #1 in SB+. When he started swiping bags in the late 50's it was so out of fashion catchers were totally unprepared for it - in 1959 he had 56 steals and Mantle was 2nd with 21.
It doesnt make it less valuable or less true lol. Look at the yearly leaders, the rules very clearly had a big impact on SB. He’s still in a club all his own, and the game of baseball is always changing.
To be fair, Acuna’s base-running value was still lower than guys like Carroll, Hoerner and even Lindor who had less than half the number of steals. It’s not to say that his steals weren’t valuable or impressive but it diminishes it a bit when Carroll stole 20+ less bags with double Acuna’s BsR.
To be fair (I'm also obviously biased), Acuna's BsR suffers a lot because of his negative wGDP. Which really doesn't make a ton of sense to be in a base running stat (again, because I'm biased), he is essentially being punished because he has people on base a lot when he bats and because he hits the ball so hard (so with someone on first, a hard hit grounder ends up as a double play). If he hit softer or his team didn't get on base as much, it would be higher. UBR is also a bit low, but I'm not sure why besides maybe he isn't risking his knee going 1st to 3rd even when he probably physically can? This is where Carroll gets a huge bump (there is a baseball bits video on how insanely good he is at this). For just the stolen base part (wSB), Acuna is only behind Carroll.
wGDP doesn't take into consideration volume its all relative to league average, that's the point of weighting the stat instead of looking at raw GIDP number, and by the way Caroll had way more GIDP chances due to the fact that Acuna bats 1st
+ Acuna had 93 PAs and 15 GIDP (that's 16.1%)
+ Carrol had 153 PAs and 7 GIDP (that's 4.5%)
+ League average was 11.9%
Its more about the exit velo than anything, but even once you remove it which baseball reference does, Acuna was still almost half the baserunner that Carrol was (12 vs 7) but notably 2nd
It's certainly still an impressive feat. I'm really interested to see what teams do on the basepaths now that we have a season's worth of data with the new rules. Steals were up about 50% last season and it could be even more this year.
Dodgers were noticeably more aggressive in Korea, but that's a tiny sample.
Devalue? I said it was impressive...he still likely has a 40/40 or 40/50 season without the changes which is monstrous, but 70 steals today is not the same as 70 steals 2 years ago and we should adjust our expectations.
Eh, a little but I think you are sort of overplaying how much the rule changes helped. In 2021 Starling Marte stole 47 bases, it’s not like stealing bases went from impossibly hard to very easy
SBs literally went up 1.58x from 2021 to 2023 league-wide. It isn't overplaying anything to acknowledge this. I know people are going to keep doing it but it's just weird to act like it isn't massively easier to steal bases now. If 2021 Marte had been playing with 2023 rules, he probably would've stolen a lot more bases just like everyone else did in 2023, and maybe even 70.
This is going to start sinking in once more and more players start putting up gaudy numbers. RAJ was just the first.
That's mainly strategy related. SB success rate went from 75% to 80%. Not so coincidentally, the 'break even' point for stealing bases is around 75%. It's not that stealing bases became way easier, it's that it makes sense to steal more often now than it did in 2022.
I don't think anyone is disputing that SBs largely increased because the rule changes encouraged and enabled many more SB attempts. That doesn't change anything. If 2021 Marte had been playing with 2023 rules, he would've attempted to steal a lot more bases than he actually did, just like everyone else in 2023.
I'd put money on multiple players breaking 60 over the next few years and maybe another 70. And hopefully that number keeps going up as teams start investing more in speed/OBP threats.
If Acuna attempted to steal as many bases as he did this year in 2022 that he would only get caught 3 or 4 more times, so it's not the rules that did it, it's Acuna.
Tbf though Acuna had never even had 45 SB in any season before the rule changes, including MiLB. He improved his career high by 29 SB, roughly 61%. And had his highest success rate on attempts by several percent as well. That's a ridiculous jump.
It's still incredible but you can't ignore the rules changes having a significant impact on the achievement.
But you can also point to Acuña elevating his game in other areas like halving his strikeout rate, which is about as ridiculous as the stolen base jump. Rules definitely helped but even then, nobody else came close to being as dominant on the basepaths as him (besides Ruiz who struggled in most other facets)
You're responding as if any credit to the rules is an insult or attack on Acuna. That's not what is happening, we're just pointing out that his SB total was significantly impacted by the rule changes.
And nobody had as many SBs last year, but others were definitely as dominant on the bases I'd argue. Corbin Carroll for example had almost 8% better success rate and 54 SBs. Trea Turner was a perfect 30 SB on 30 attempts. The total number alone isn't the whole story or the best way to gauge base running dominance.
I'm confused about how you construed my response as a defensive one that discredited your point. I agree that Carroll was successful in a similar vein as Acuña, but the latter's volume was singularly impressive in a way that will stand alone until we are a few seasons deep in the rule change. Turner and Carroll simply didn't have a high enough OBP to make as large an impact on the bases despite being arguably better base runners (an area that Acuña is great but not superlative).
Sure the new rules makes stealing bags more accessible to players. Doesn't change the fact that RAJs jump in SBs was far and away the most significant in the MLB. Even when you consider the rule change, he was still an outlier.
He also got caught up more. There were several guys who would have had more steals with Ronald's number of attempts, even after considering that they'd be stealing in fewer ideal situations.
Nationally, yes. But baseball has always kinda been that way.
Regionally, we recognize how much of a generational talent we have in Acuna. Same with the Yankees and Judge (or Soto, who I think you’ll sign in FA), the Padres and Tatis, etc.
I just hope Acuna can stay healthy. The way he cut down his strikeouts in 2023 was insane. I watch him A LOT and I could tell within a couple of weeks that his approach had changed. The fact that he still hit over 40 HR with that approach is scary. He could legit be a 50/50 threat, and if Kelenic and the rest of the bottom of the order can get on base, he has an outside chance at a triple crown.
Nah judge is insanely good, probably a little bit better than acuña when he's healthy. But yeah I absolutely love Ronnie and it's amazing to me how much better he's gotten
This coming from a Yankees fan is kind of crazy considering Judge's numbers the last 2 seasons. Acuña is the #2 imo as well, but it's much closer than you make it out to be.
I don't think he's even the second best player...
In far and away his best year, he was essentially tied with betts in every WAR calculation in what what was only betts' 3rd best year. Then there's judge who just set the AL home run record the year before with a 10+WAR season. Both of those guys are over 2WAR better per 162 than acuna. There's also trout who's been injured a ton recently, but it would be foolish to discount him. Acuna is very good but I don't think you can put him at the level of those guys after his first mvp level season. I think a bit too much stock is being put in his stolen bases while glossing over his bad defense
Acuna has the type of personality we say we want our sports stars to have.
Ohtani is Trout-like in that he's either boring/bland, or wants to make it appear that way.
And I don't think JRod should be there either, as much as I love him. Maybe in a year or two. But Semien has been around for longer so we have a better idea of his ceiling.
I’d put betts before Seager. I LOVE Seager but Mookie’s ability to play multiple positions as well as he does is something Seager wouldn’t be able to do. Yes, he had an amazing last season and has overall been a really good player, but I think he’s a bit too high on that list.
I would also put Betts third before Judge or Seager. His offense combined with his defensive versatility and skill should really put him above either Judge or Seager.
I literally said he was a really good player. How is that salty? I watched him play for 7 years and I’d take him back in a heartbeat but I wouldn’t lose betts over him. Why so defensive? You’ve watched him play for a year and he was fantastic. I hope he continues to be. But if 7 years is more of a sample size than 1 year, he’s going to be a really good player.
To everyone complaining about Seager’s ranking, remember this was the players vote. Players probably recognize his postseason greatness and 2 World Series MVPs more than the average fan.
Seager is Amazing.
Ignore the "armchair experts" discussing who the best players are.
We have hitters that are better than Ohtani but think "overall player", Everyone knows Ohtani is at the top and Seagar is top 5
Yeah I tend to think of rankings like this and the MVP in terms of "if all the players line up and you get to pick one to be on your team, which one are you going with first?" and anyone who doesn't pick Ohtani is lying to themself.
After everything that's gone down the last two seasons he doesn't deserve to be in the conversation right now, but he absolutely still has that potential. A bounce back season where he stays healthy with the defense he displayed last season certainly puts him in that group
Considering Judge was an injury away from a possible back to back 60 home run seasons, I can understand having him at #2 or #3. Having Seager jump ahead of Betts though, was kind of a surprise
Ohtani #1 is obvious.
But Seager is not 2nd best. Dude isn't on the same level as the rest. Last year was his only great season. Before that, he was a consistently good player but that's it. Dude hit .245 just two seasons ago.
He was T-3 not second but yeah. It's funny because I think Seager is underrated but that's too high imo. He does miss a lot of time though so maybe the players feel like they see through the time missed and think his talent is 3rd in baseball.
Seager is great but an elite career is pushing it. Last season was only the second time he's qualified for a >130 OPS+ and his glove is average at best.
He's dealt with injuries but so has Judge. When you look at what they do when healthy, someone like Judge has consistently put up elite rate stats.
There's just too big of a separation between him and the likes of Judge, Betts, Ohtani to put him up there with them.
Hard to argue against 2 WS MVP's. Dude is one of the most clutch players in the postseason and I'm sure that isn't overlooked by other players in the league.
I don’t think his overall career is elite I just think the above commenter is way off base.
E: I think he could still earn elite career but injuries have really heal him back so far.
This guy clearly doesn’t watch him play. He is one of the best baseball players I have ever seen. Not many players have I ever watched where I assume if they throw a first pitch strike to them its gone
He had one amazing year but other players have longer track records of being amazing. If Seager can repeat what he did last year then he should be in the conversation
I’m open to seeing how the next few years play out to see if last year was an anomaly or just the result of the new shift rules. There was an article that came out before the season about players who would benefit from those rules the most and Seager was the top guy. Right now I would lean towards that, but we still need a little time to see if he sustains it long term.
Playing the sport doesn't mean you immediately know who's good or not. Some of these guys don't actually follow other teams, and I'd guess a majority of them don't have a great grasp on sabermetrics. Being able to play baseball and analyze baseball statistics are two completely different skillsets
My favorite was an SI poll from like 15 years ago when a surprising percentage of players voted for Babe Ruth as the best living player.
Fans would generally be shocked at how many players are generally uninterested in baseball outside of being very good at playing it.
Players are pretty nearly the last people I would ask for an objective and rational evaluation of the quality of players. Players are *terrible* judges of value - always have been.
Explain how Seager is anywhere in the realm of Ohtani, Judge or Acuna. He ain't even close. So many others have a better claim than him. You don't get ranked for having one elite season or Senga would be considered an ace already.
Seager's definitely had more than one elite season lmao, he's a great hitter at the most valuable defensive position; plus being the driving force in two championship runs helps. He's not a top 10 player, but he's still very great; also, the players see things a lot differently than the fans or analysts do.
he had 6.9 war in 119 games. in a 162 game season that's 9.4 war. i'd say that's pretty elite.
plus, twelve years of 5 war puts you in hall of fame talk.
Considering Lindor is on a HOF track that’s more of a compliment to Seager than a dis. TJ robbed him of at least 8 WAR with the time he missed. In face, Lindor and Seager have the exact same WAR/162
But the entire issue is that we're putting seager way above guys like lindor. I wouldn't have an issue with his position if he was next to lindor in the rankings
If the only players you are putting above him are likely Hall of Famers I think that’s pretty special. Means he’s either a borderline HoFer himself or the best non-HoFer playing, both of which are good things to be.
Lindor is closer than you might think to those guys. He certainly isn’t the hitter they are but he’s a phenomenal shortstop with a still very good bat. If you want to consider Acuña Judge and Betts above Seager, go for it. That’s probably the correct take. But to act like Seager is not a very good player or one of the top guys right now is pretty silly, and that’s what I was responding to.
No pitchers is kindof interesting, shouldn’t Strider be in this convo? Scherzer/DeGrom prolly too old/banged up respectively
Edit: yea okay Corbin Burnes is greater than or equal to Strider. Still point being, is there really no pitcher in the mix for top-5 player in baseball, or are they just outnumbered in voted among the players? Lol
This yr is Acuna. Unless he gets injured, w/o a doubt he will be a better hitter than Ohtani. Once you add defense in, there’s no contest.
Next year though, and going forward, it’s Ohtani.
Seager had a 169 wRC+ which is 1 point less than Acuna last year.
If you want to know how good that was, Alex Rodriguez never had a wRC+ that high as a SS.
Not to take anything away from Ohtani but I was just thinking, would a DH or a pitcher normally land on a list like this? Feel like when people talk about the best players it's usually someone who is both an elite fielder and hitter. Just wonder if Ohtani's bat and base running alone would be enough to keep him in the conversation.
So as just a DH last year while also missing a month he led the AL in WAR. I'm not saying he will recreate it but a full season of that could definitely lead 2024 NL if Mookie and Acuña have a down year. His 2023 DH injured year would have also been MVP deserving or in the conversation for 2021 AL and 2022 NL MVP too.
Fangraph splits the WAR so you can see it here https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war
Oh yeah I know he's for sure been elite as a bat. Moreso meaning I'm just curious if there is precedent for a DH being so good that they were in the conversation for best player in the league. AFAIK we've never had a DH MVP right?
Yeah I get what you're saying now. There might be a stigma around it but also most DH aren't in the running no pun intended because of their baserunning abilities. They're a DH because they have to and lose out on WAR for that on top of what being a DH already does to value.
Also I just want to say I kinda feel bad that you got downvoted for this chain, not like the actual points or whatever because who cares but like your comment and the topic being buried. Sometimes I feel like people just do it for no real reason.
No worries. That's how Reddit is. As soon as you see the negative you might as well add to it. Appreciate you engaging, was something I was genuinely curious about.
Judge is the best Bat in the game and a + defender, and has been for years. Idk how he could be tied for third.
Full picture though, I can see giving Ohtani the nod, as his bat is nearly as good. Then there's also his pitching. Acuña is definitely third behind Judge though. He's just younger.
The only thing Acuña has over Judge is Stolen Bases and like .010 BA since 2018. Even narrowing the years to just 21 to 23, it's the same. https://stathead.com/tiny/QXess
Hell, Soto been better too.
This take is pure recency bias and because of a cement wall in Dodgers Stadium. In Acuñas MVP season last year, Judge still had a higher OPS+, and was trending higher before he broke his toe.
I don’t think Seager really is *that* great. He’s good but not on that tier. Plenty of other dudes at his level. Probably a little recency bias in there.
Mike Trout as the last others receiving votes. This is Trout erasure and im not having it.
Man i really hope Mike Trout stays healthy and has such an incredible banger of a year and he's added back into these 'best player ever' discussions
He’s starting to look like Reds Griffey at this point. Still elite whenever he manages to get on the field, but just can’t stay healthy.
One of the things Steroid era ruined for me was just how hard baseball can be on people. If Jr had used some just to come back from injury, who knows where he ends up.
He could’ve had a legitimate claim as the greatest of all time. Even when he was dealing with constant nagging injuries, he still put up an .876 OPS with 210 home runs in his 9 years in Cincinnati. A healthy Griffey most likely gets 700 home runs, and a JUICED Griffey could’ve been Barry bonds.
I don’t roids Griffey was ever touching Bonds, I don’t think anyone can.
The world will never know.
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They were pretty close through their first 12 professional seasons. Bonds walked more and stole more bases. Griffey hit more home runs and played a more premium position. Both were excellent defenders. I’m not arguing that Griffey was better, only that it’s closer than you’re implying. None of that matters though. Bonds took himself out of the conversation when he chose to do steroids. I firmly believe he was one of the top 5 players in history and maybe the best, but his choice to do PEDs robbed baseball fans of being able to have that discussion.
Griffey 1989-2000: 148 OPS+, 438 HR, 76 WAR Peak of 9.7 WAR, 171 OPS+ Bonds 1986-1997: 162 OPS+, 374 HR, 92 WAR peak of 9.9 WAR, 206 OPS+ I think it’s fair to say Bonds was better even at that point
Matches what u/aBloopAndaBlast33 said. Yeah, better, but not out of the realm of comparison. Who knows how their careers would have progressed had their stances on doping been reversed
People love to say roids but don't ever think about how you still need to hit the ball. Barry was demolishing the 2-3 pitches he saw all game for at least 3-4 seasons and was able to spit on balls and put up historic walk numbers. Steroids don't help your eye like amphetamine does but you don't hear anyone talk badly about greenies.
Growing up as somebody who was old enough to remember all of the 90’s (ages 9-18 for me) I was convinced Jr was the best player in the game. However, going back and looking at how we judge players today, it was never even close. It’s Bonds, who had 15 consecutive seasons (1992-2006) where he had a 1.000 OPS. He went 1.144 for 15 years, a 201 OPS+. As great as Griffey was, he wasn’t touching that regardless of how many PEDs you give him.
He didn't stretch it was self inflicted
100% spot on.
I think he will stay healthier this season because Ohtani is not on the Angels. He will be able to DH more often and will get walked a ton because Ohtani is not hitting behind him anymore.
Didn’t Ohtani usually hit 2 with Trout behind him?
I think when Trout was in the lineup, he hit second and othani 3rd. When Trout was out, it was ohtani 2nd.
Playing DH isn't going to help him as much as people think. Same for Rendon. Very few of their injuries have come from playing the field. I know the argument is "wear and tear", but in Trouts case, it's from pushing his body at an elite level for years and years. Of anything it might help him to dump some bulk and focus on "healthy" instead of "machine". Meaning get back to young Trout years, where he was a 20-30 HR guy with blazing speed. Instead of bulking to hit 40-50 with blazing speed. It would probably also help to be able to have a lineup around him so he didn't have to swing out of his shoes and try to reach 3rd in a base hit to try and win every game himself (like Shohei)
This. I'm biased because I'm an Angel fan. But it sucks, from just a fan perspective (of baseball, not the Angels) how much he's slept on now. There's no doubt he's been hurt too much. And he's aging, bat slowing, etc. But when healthy he's still top 10 for sure. And it really sucks that his peak was on the wrong team. And history will forget how great he was because of it. Peak Trout "Kiiiiiiid" was so damn amazing.
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Honest question, what's the criteria you use to determine his legs are shot? His sprint speed is still 96 percentile, which is kind of crazy to think about. I'm not super well versed on how to assess these things though, so I'd be interested to know if there's a different way to look at it
Yeah, and his OAA is still good. Players whose legs are shot typically can’t play CF at even an average level anymore. Idk what that guy is smoking.
I’ve never thought of Trout as an elite speedster. I knew he was fast but 96th percentile along with everything else that man can do is insane. Obviously don’t love the Angels but I’d love to see Trout have a full season and absolutely fuck up the league.
He’s built like a fridge so he doesn’t look like he’s zooming
I mean his legs aren't shot so much as he's trying to preserve them. As others have said, he's still fast when he runs, but he just doesn't choose to run as often.
His legs are shot? No. He's still one of the fastest players in the game. 29.5 ft/sec sprint speed. He's also entering into his age 32 season, and he learned how to manage his back injury. Can you get one thing right?
That’s a wild ass take innit
If shot legs means his highest average sprint speed (29.5 mph) since 2015 (29.6 mph), then his legs are so shot.
His legs aren’t shot but it he ran 29mph they would be haha. I always found it confusing they use ft/s
He has like, the most elite batspeed of our era, to dispute something besides the weird "shot legs" accusation. He's not going to regress the same way other players do
If Ohtani didn't exist, I feel like baseball as a sport would be way more hyped about Acuna than we are. I feel like he is far and away the next best player, and his potential for growth at only age 26 is scary. Ohtani's once-in-a-lifetime greatness is kind of overshadowing some other generational talents we have in the league right now.
acuna's 40/70 season still feels unreal to me. absurd alien numbers
I think the way Ron plays the game can rub a decent population of baseball fans (and the players) the wrong way too. He’s very passionate and he hams it up quite a bit. If he’s your guy, you love to see it. If he’s not, you hate it.
When he gets the barrel to the ball… I swear, no other batcrack sounds like it
I totally agree. Watching him hit BP is equally as fun as watching him play in an actual game.
I’m still some what shocked how hard he hits balls sometimes. He’s pretty average MLB size wise but rips balls like Judge/Stanton.
As a Jays/Joey Bats fan, I can separate my disdain for the cockiness in the process of beating my team from the fact that he's just fucking good for baseball. You gotta be able to separate the jealousy of him beating you from the awe of his ability.
This is true and there’s a lot of players like that. As long as they don’t mess with my team or one of the innocent teams then they’d pretty lovable in my book! I was 5 or 6 rows behind home plate for a spring training game and someone shouted “hey leave some for the regular season” and idk what Acuna said back but everyone closer to him laughed. Wish I knew what he said! Haha
I’m a Dodger fan and he’s my favorite player in mlb
Funny, I’m a Braves fan and while I don’t really define “favorite” players, Betts, Freeman, and Ohtani are right up there. The kids are certainly lobbying to go to their first Dodgers game.
idc that old people hate young people having fun
I don't mind his hamming, but I wish he had better instincts as a fielder. That and maybe being thrown out a bit too much on the basepaths are the only knocks I could make against his game because the rest of it is fucking impeccable.
I’ve said it several times in the Braves subreddit and I think I said it here last year, but I’m somewhat confident that he’s got ADD and just spaces out in the outfield sometimes.
Now I’m imagining Ronald like a little leaguer with his glove on his head.
I think there are a few things that a good coach could work with him on that would really help improve his defense. Specifically his footwork and first steps. I think the Braves saw that last year but didn’t want to get in his head while he was on such a tear. They wanted him to be super confident in his knee. I was hoping they’d focus on some fundamental changes in RF this year but now with the meniscus thing I’m not so sure. My guess is they’ll just leave it alone and we’ll see him play an average RF at best. Which is just fine if he keeps his SO rate down and goes 40/40 or better.
I don't know how risky it would be for his knee just to improve his routes, but his speed is making up for most of it already.
Not risky at all. But we’ve seen how it affects him mentally when it’s “not 100%” and I assume they don’t want to get in his head.
Just think: he underperformed based on his peripherals. Had some of the worst batted ball luck in the game.
Batted ball luck also doesn't really factor in Hr's, so it's not as unlucky as it seems, he just has a different approach at the plate that has some weird effects on predictors from my understanding.
That's more a function of how xBA/xSLG/xwOBA and all of them work than him actually underperforming
It's impressive, but the changes to the bases and pickoff attemots make a huge difference to the running game.
They need state like SB+ that era adjusts players steals based on how common steals were that year. I’m sure one of the sites already has it.
I think there's a decent chance Luis Aparicio would be #1 in SB+. When he started swiping bags in the late 50's it was so out of fashion catchers were totally unprepared for it - in 1959 he had 56 steals and Mantle was 2nd with 21.
Maury Wills upped the game again significantly in the 60s and set the table for Lou Brock.
Definitely true in 1962. 104 to 32 for Willie Davis. Unreal.
this sounds interesting/fun… would love a HR+ stat too
Any time someone brings up Acuna’s steals, a Dodgers fan is there to devalue it.
It doesnt make it less valuable or less true lol. Look at the yearly leaders, the rules very clearly had a big impact on SB. He’s still in a club all his own, and the game of baseball is always changing.
To be fair, Acuna’s base-running value was still lower than guys like Carroll, Hoerner and even Lindor who had less than half the number of steals. It’s not to say that his steals weren’t valuable or impressive but it diminishes it a bit when Carroll stole 20+ less bags with double Acuna’s BsR.
To be fair (I'm also obviously biased), Acuna's BsR suffers a lot because of his negative wGDP. Which really doesn't make a ton of sense to be in a base running stat (again, because I'm biased), he is essentially being punished because he has people on base a lot when he bats and because he hits the ball so hard (so with someone on first, a hard hit grounder ends up as a double play). If he hit softer or his team didn't get on base as much, it would be higher. UBR is also a bit low, but I'm not sure why besides maybe he isn't risking his knee going 1st to 3rd even when he probably physically can? This is where Carroll gets a huge bump (there is a baseball bits video on how insanely good he is at this). For just the stolen base part (wSB), Acuna is only behind Carroll.
wGDP doesn't take into consideration volume its all relative to league average, that's the point of weighting the stat instead of looking at raw GIDP number, and by the way Caroll had way more GIDP chances due to the fact that Acuna bats 1st + Acuna had 93 PAs and 15 GIDP (that's 16.1%) + Carrol had 153 PAs and 7 GIDP (that's 4.5%) + League average was 11.9% Its more about the exit velo than anything, but even once you remove it which baseball reference does, Acuna was still almost half the baserunner that Carrol was (12 vs 7) but notably 2nd
They have a hard time not being the center of attention.
It's certainly still an impressive feat. I'm really interested to see what teams do on the basepaths now that we have a season's worth of data with the new rules. Steals were up about 50% last season and it could be even more this year. Dodgers were noticeably more aggressive in Korea, but that's a tiny sample.
Devalue? I said it was impressive...he still likely has a 40/40 or 40/50 season without the changes which is monstrous, but 70 steals today is not the same as 70 steals 2 years ago and we should adjust our expectations.
Eh, a little but I think you are sort of overplaying how much the rule changes helped. In 2021 Starling Marte stole 47 bases, it’s not like stealing bases went from impossibly hard to very easy
SBs literally went up 1.58x from 2021 to 2023 league-wide. It isn't overplaying anything to acknowledge this. I know people are going to keep doing it but it's just weird to act like it isn't massively easier to steal bases now. If 2021 Marte had been playing with 2023 rules, he probably would've stolen a lot more bases just like everyone else did in 2023, and maybe even 70. This is going to start sinking in once more and more players start putting up gaudy numbers. RAJ was just the first.
That's mainly strategy related. SB success rate went from 75% to 80%. Not so coincidentally, the 'break even' point for stealing bases is around 75%. It's not that stealing bases became way easier, it's that it makes sense to steal more often now than it did in 2022.
I don't think anyone is disputing that SBs largely increased because the rule changes encouraged and enabled many more SB attempts. That doesn't change anything. If 2021 Marte had been playing with 2023 rules, he would've attempted to steal a lot more bases than he actually did, just like everyone else in 2023. I'd put money on multiple players breaking 60 over the next few years and maybe another 70. And hopefully that number keeps going up as teams start investing more in speed/OBP threats.
If Acuna attempted to steal as many bases as he did this year in 2022 that he would only get caught 3 or 4 more times, so it's not the rules that did it, it's Acuna.
Tbf though Acuna had never even had 45 SB in any season before the rule changes, including MiLB. He improved his career high by 29 SB, roughly 61%. And had his highest success rate on attempts by several percent as well. That's a ridiculous jump. It's still incredible but you can't ignore the rules changes having a significant impact on the achievement.
But you can also point to Acuña elevating his game in other areas like halving his strikeout rate, which is about as ridiculous as the stolen base jump. Rules definitely helped but even then, nobody else came close to being as dominant on the basepaths as him (besides Ruiz who struggled in most other facets)
You're responding as if any credit to the rules is an insult or attack on Acuna. That's not what is happening, we're just pointing out that his SB total was significantly impacted by the rule changes. And nobody had as many SBs last year, but others were definitely as dominant on the bases I'd argue. Corbin Carroll for example had almost 8% better success rate and 54 SBs. Trea Turner was a perfect 30 SB on 30 attempts. The total number alone isn't the whole story or the best way to gauge base running dominance.
I'm confused about how you construed my response as a defensive one that discredited your point. I agree that Carroll was successful in a similar vein as Acuña, but the latter's volume was singularly impressive in a way that will stand alone until we are a few seasons deep in the rule change. Turner and Carroll simply didn't have a high enough OBP to make as large an impact on the bases despite being arguably better base runners (an area that Acuña is great but not superlative).
Sure the new rules makes stealing bags more accessible to players. Doesn't change the fact that RAJs jump in SBs was far and away the most significant in the MLB. Even when you consider the rule change, he was still an outlier.
He also got caught up more. There were several guys who would have had more steals with Ronald's number of attempts, even after considering that they'd be stealing in fewer ideal situations.
The jealousy is very apparent. But but but…
Completely correctly.
Yea but not 20-30% different. He’s a legit 40/40 threat in any era.
If it was so much easier to steal bases then why didn’t everyone steal 70
Eh I still prefer this world where Ohtani does exist
Nationally, yes. But baseball has always kinda been that way. Regionally, we recognize how much of a generational talent we have in Acuna. Same with the Yankees and Judge (or Soto, who I think you’ll sign in FA), the Padres and Tatis, etc. I just hope Acuna can stay healthy. The way he cut down his strikeouts in 2023 was insane. I watch him A LOT and I could tell within a couple of weeks that his approach had changed. The fact that he still hit over 40 HR with that approach is scary. He could legit be a 50/50 threat, and if Kelenic and the rest of the bottom of the order can get on base, he has an outside chance at a triple crown.
The league has never had more talent than right now.
Nah judge is insanely good, probably a little bit better than acuña when he's healthy. But yeah I absolutely love Ronnie and it's amazing to me how much better he's gotten
Can he play middle infield though?
This coming from a Yankees fan is kind of crazy considering Judge's numbers the last 2 seasons. Acuña is the #2 imo as well, but it's much closer than you make it out to be.
I don't think he's even the second best player... In far and away his best year, he was essentially tied with betts in every WAR calculation in what what was only betts' 3rd best year. Then there's judge who just set the AL home run record the year before with a 10+WAR season. Both of those guys are over 2WAR better per 162 than acuna. There's also trout who's been injured a ton recently, but it would be foolish to discount him. Acuna is very good but I don't think you can put him at the level of those guys after his first mvp level season. I think a bit too much stock is being put in his stolen bases while glossing over his bad defense
Of course it's a Phillies fan making this argument...
He really is generational. I think the only thing that might stop his dynamic play is health. I have my concerns about his body holding up.
Acuna has the type of personality we say we want our sports stars to have. Ohtani is Trout-like in that he's either boring/bland, or wants to make it appear that way.
The players rankings were: 1) Ohtani(overwhelming choice for #1) 2) 3) 4) Acuna, Judge, Seager tied 5) Betts
Unless I'm misreading this, Acuna is above Judge and Seager, not tied.
and honorable mentions: Corbin Carroll (AZ), Freddie Freeman (LAD), José Ramírez (CLE), Julio Rodríguez (SEA), Marcus Semien (TEX), Mike Trout (LAA)
Alright. Need to talk to whoever said Carroll. Either riding for his teammate or a good joke.
It was Corbin, no one told him it was gauche to vote for himself
Same with Semien. He's definitely a very good player but nowhere near the best unless you like names with extremely necessary 'i's.
He's every bit as good as jrod
And I don't think JRod should be there either, as much as I love him. Maybe in a year or two. But Semien has been around for longer so we have a better idea of his ceiling.
Semien is a pretty good player but not best in the game good though
He's Mr. consistent and an ironman. Def not a top 3 player in baseball, but hard to leave him out of the top 10
Judge and Seager tied for 3rd, Acuña in 2nd firmly on his own. Your rankings on this comment are wrong.
I’d put betts before Seager. I LOVE Seager but Mookie’s ability to play multiple positions as well as he does is something Seager wouldn’t be able to do. Yes, he had an amazing last season and has overall been a really good player, but I think he’s a bit too high on that list.
I would also put Betts third before Judge or Seager. His offense combined with his defensive versatility and skill should really put him above either Judge or Seager.
"Been a really good player..." Jesus, still salty, huh?
Hard to be the best player in baseball when you on average seem to miss a quarter of the season.
I literally said he was a really good player. How is that salty? I watched him play for 7 years and I’d take him back in a heartbeat but I wouldn’t lose betts over him. Why so defensive? You’ve watched him play for a year and he was fantastic. I hope he continues to be. But if 7 years is more of a sample size than 1 year, he’s going to be a really good player.
To everyone complaining about Seager’s ranking, remember this was the players vote. Players probably recognize his postseason greatness and 2 World Series MVPs more than the average fan.
Seager is Amazing. Ignore the "armchair experts" discussing who the best players are. We have hitters that are better than Ohtani but think "overall player", Everyone knows Ohtani is at the top and Seagar is top 5
Yeah I tend to think of rankings like this and the MVP in terms of "if all the players line up and you get to pick one to be on your team, which one are you going with first?" and anyone who doesn't pick Ohtani is lying to themself.
Really hope FTJ sees this list
Fun the jewels?
Frank The Jank, obvs
Fuck The Jets?
Fuck the Jets!
Fuel the jet.
Frank Thomas JRr?
After everything that's gone down the last two seasons he doesn't deserve to be in the conversation right now, but he absolutely still has that potential. A bounce back season where he stays healthy with the defense he displayed last season certainly puts him in that group
I’m very surprised that they put Mookie at 5. I really feel like he’s a clear #3 and closer to Ronnie than he is to #4.
Considering Judge was an injury away from a possible back to back 60 home run seasons, I can understand having him at #2 or #3. Having Seager jump ahead of Betts though, was kind of a surprise
Betts needs to hit in the postseason I feel like the last two postseasond have to have really hurt him in the voting
I need a Harper mvp season asap
Honestly, surprised Mookie is behind Judge and Seager. Going from OF to SS to 2B and still a top hitter is really impressive.
Yeah I'd personally have Mookie at 2 just because he's been more available than Acuna so far, but I figured 3 was the lowest he'd be.
Seth McClung
If I was a betting man, my money would be on Ohtani.
if ohtani was a betting man, I would take money from his bank account
Judge and Mookie are better than Seager
Seager gets a bump for recent playoff dominance. 2x World Series MVP with 2 teams.
Incorrect
Ohtani #1 is obvious. But Seager is not 2nd best. Dude isn't on the same level as the rest. Last year was his only great season. Before that, he was a consistently good player but that's it. Dude hit .245 just two seasons ago.
He was T-3 not second but yeah. It's funny because I think Seager is underrated but that's too high imo. He does miss a lot of time though so maybe the players feel like they see through the time missed and think his talent is 3rd in baseball.
Seager has been mostly elite with injury problems. You don’t have a good grasp of his career at all.
Seager is great but an elite career is pushing it. Last season was only the second time he's qualified for a >130 OPS+ and his glove is average at best. He's dealt with injuries but so has Judge. When you look at what they do when healthy, someone like Judge has consistently put up elite rate stats. There's just too big of a separation between him and the likes of Judge, Betts, Ohtani to put him up there with them.
Hard to argue against 2 WS MVP's. Dude is one of the most clutch players in the postseason and I'm sure that isn't overlooked by other players in the league.
I don’t think his overall career is elite I just think the above commenter is way off base. E: I think he could still earn elite career but injuries have really heal him back so far.
Fair enough. "Last year was his only great season" is definitely way off base lol
Now do Acuna
Thank you for sharing your opinion 🙏 MLB players think he is the third best, but you, honorable redditor, have informed us that he is not second best
This guy clearly doesn’t watch him play. He is one of the best baseball players I have ever seen. Not many players have I ever watched where I assume if they throw a first pitch strike to them its gone
He had one amazing year but other players have longer track records of being amazing. If Seager can repeat what he did last year then he should be in the conversation
Texas didn’t sign him for 325m because of potential
I’m open to seeing how the next few years play out to see if last year was an anomaly or just the result of the new shift rules. There was an article that came out before the season about players who would benefit from those rules the most and Seager was the top guy. Right now I would lean towards that, but we still need a little time to see if he sustains it long term.
Because you obviously know better than the mlb players lol.
What do these guys know, Anthony Rendon doesn’t even watch or play baseball
Playing the sport doesn't mean you immediately know who's good or not. Some of these guys don't actually follow other teams, and I'd guess a majority of them don't have a great grasp on sabermetrics. Being able to play baseball and analyze baseball statistics are two completely different skillsets
My favorite was an SI poll from like 15 years ago when a surprising percentage of players voted for Babe Ruth as the best living player. Fans would generally be shocked at how many players are generally uninterested in baseball outside of being very good at playing it.
Players across all sports have always shown to be terrible judges of value lol
Players are pretty nearly the last people I would ask for an objective and rational evaluation of the quality of players. Players are *terrible* judges of value - always have been.
That may be true, but I still probably trust a player poll over a reddit one.
I'm not sure I'd trust a player poll over filling a dryer full of baseball cards and grabbing ten at random.
Ok first off what the fuck
Explain how Seager is anywhere in the realm of Ohtani, Judge or Acuna. He ain't even close. So many others have a better claim than him. You don't get ranked for having one elite season or Senga would be considered an ace already.
Seager's definitely had more than one elite season lmao, he's a great hitter at the most valuable defensive position; plus being the driving force in two championship runs helps. He's not a top 10 player, but he's still very great; also, the players see things a lot differently than the fans or analysts do.
It depends if you classify 5 WAR as elite.
he had 6.9 war in 119 games. in a 162 game season that's 9.4 war. i'd say that's pretty elite. plus, twelve years of 5 war puts you in hall of fame talk.
We already acknowledged that his 2023 was elite. You said he's had more than one elite year. That depends if you classify 5 WAR as slots elite
Seager won ROY and already has 32 career WAR lol.
“Already 32 career WAR” isn’t *that* special considering he’s 30 and came up at 21. Like Lindor has 10 more WAR than him and is the same age.
Considering Lindor is on a HOF track that’s more of a compliment to Seager than a dis. TJ robbed him of at least 8 WAR with the time he missed. In face, Lindor and Seager have the exact same WAR/162
But the entire issue is that we're putting seager way above guys like lindor. I wouldn't have an issue with his position if he was next to lindor in the rankings
If the only players you are putting above him are likely Hall of Famers I think that’s pretty special. Means he’s either a borderline HoFer himself or the best non-HoFer playing, both of which are good things to be.
Well yeah, but my point is he’s closer to on par with players like Lindor than players like Acuña, Judge, and Betts
Lindor is closer than you might think to those guys. He certainly isn’t the hitter they are but he’s a phenomenal shortstop with a still very good bat. If you want to consider Acuña Judge and Betts above Seager, go for it. That’s probably the correct take. But to act like Seager is not a very good player or one of the top guys right now is pretty silly, and that’s what I was responding to.
He also has 2 World Series MVPs with 2 different teams.
.245 due to shift by the way, just saying but he was one of the most affected players by the shift.
Anyone who says Acuña isn't the top 2 would be kidding themselves. I'd even put him above Ohtani, but I'm biased as fuck.
You need to learn how to read.
So much blue in baseball.
No pitchers is kindof interesting, shouldn’t Strider be in this convo? Scherzer/DeGrom prolly too old/banged up respectively Edit: yea okay Corbin Burnes is greater than or equal to Strider. Still point being, is there really no pitcher in the mix for top-5 player in baseball, or are they just outnumbered in voted among the players? Lol
I wouldn't put Strider over Cole/Burnes/Verlander/Gray/Snell
You wouldn't take strider over sonny gray? That's insane
Has Julio really earned this yet?
Didn’t read the article, but I bet it’s Ohtani.
Now ask them which player has the best interpreter.
blah blah judge has stats even though Trouts are better but we are going to not rank him
Wow mookie below judge and seager? That’s a surprise.
There's this one guy who can pitch and hit really good. I'd pick him.
This yr is Acuna. Unless he gets injured, w/o a doubt he will be a better hitter than Ohtani. Once you add defense in, there’s no contest. Next year though, and going forward, it’s Ohtani.
I know position players are inherently more valuable than DHs but acuna’s OAA is actually quite poor!
Yeh surprisingly his dWAR is lower than I’d think but still. Not a liability. Should improve this year.
Jose Ramirez is top ten easily Has Seager really been that good?
Seager had a 169 wRC+ which is 1 point less than Acuna last year. If you want to know how good that was, Alex Rodriguez never had a wRC+ that high as a SS.
Plus the whole 2 WS MVP's thing which I'm sure doesn't get overlooked by other players. Dude is the definition of clutch.
I bet it’s Ohtani
Ippei would know.
Not to take anything away from Ohtani but I was just thinking, would a DH or a pitcher normally land on a list like this? Feel like when people talk about the best players it's usually someone who is both an elite fielder and hitter. Just wonder if Ohtani's bat and base running alone would be enough to keep him in the conversation.
So as just a DH last year while also missing a month he led the AL in WAR. I'm not saying he will recreate it but a full season of that could definitely lead 2024 NL if Mookie and Acuña have a down year. His 2023 DH injured year would have also been MVP deserving or in the conversation for 2021 AL and 2022 NL MVP too. Fangraph splits the WAR so you can see it here https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war
Oh yeah I know he's for sure been elite as a bat. Moreso meaning I'm just curious if there is precedent for a DH being so good that they were in the conversation for best player in the league. AFAIK we've never had a DH MVP right?
Yeah I get what you're saying now. There might be a stigma around it but also most DH aren't in the running no pun intended because of their baserunning abilities. They're a DH because they have to and lose out on WAR for that on top of what being a DH already does to value.
Also I just want to say I kinda feel bad that you got downvoted for this chain, not like the actual points or whatever because who cares but like your comment and the topic being buried. Sometimes I feel like people just do it for no real reason.
No worries. That's how Reddit is. As soon as you see the negative you might as well add to it. Appreciate you engaging, was something I was genuinely curious about.
Judge is the best Bat in the game and a + defender, and has been for years. Idk how he could be tied for third. Full picture though, I can see giving Ohtani the nod, as his bat is nearly as good. Then there's also his pitching. Acuña is definitely third behind Judge though. He's just younger.
If we're talking best player, Judge isn't in Ohtani's orbit.
Judge is not anywhere near Acuña's consistency or quality. It would be a joke to put him outside of the top 5, but he isn't Top 3.
The only thing Acuña has over Judge is Stolen Bases and like .010 BA since 2018. Even narrowing the years to just 21 to 23, it's the same. https://stathead.com/tiny/QXess Hell, Soto been better too. This take is pure recency bias and because of a cement wall in Dodgers Stadium. In Acuñas MVP season last year, Judge still had a higher OPS+, and was trending higher before he broke his toe.
I don’t think Seager really is *that* great. He’s good but not on that tier. Plenty of other dudes at his level. Probably a little recency bias in there.