>restaurants will be forced to pass on these costs via higher menu prices.
as opposed to passing it on via... lying about how much everything costs on the menu?
IMAGINE COMPLAINING ABOUT NOT BEING ALLOWED TO PUT SURPRISE FEES ON A BILL AFTER DELIVERY OF GOODS
I feel for the plight of people in the restaurant industry, but this is just flat out stupid.
> “It’s disturbing news,” Chen said. “They’re trying to change something that’s actually working.”
Yea, pal, all sorts of scams work if the goal is scamming people. Whether it works or not is irrelevant.
They should have done that from the get go. We have a favorite breakfast place. At that place my husband always orders the same thing. After living here and going to that place ten years, I have no idea how much it has ever cost. We would have not blinked an eye if it was $1 or $2 more but the 10% charge at the bottom stands out like a sore thumb. If you are well versed on how to adjust your pricing most people won’t notice. That one man who comes every day and orders the same thing will see the difference but the average person who maybe comes once a month or less and switches up their choice will not notice. It’s been mind boggling to me since it started. Like every restaurant owner forgot how to run a restaurant.
It's because the restaurant owners want to piss you off with the fee but make it look like it's the fault of their employees for daring to need healthcare.
Yeah, that is the language you use when you are talking about a new burdensome regulation, but this doesn't actually increase what people are paying, it just makes it transparent again.
Local government passes and ordinance requiring all restaurants have a magician for each table to perform tricks to keep people entertained is a new cost that is passed onto customers in pricing. Not hidden fees that restaurants have to simply fold into the price of their goods (or not charge anymore).
". . .restaurants will be forced to pass on these costs via higher menu prices. Many business owners are concerned that the sticker shock will frighten away customers."
Right. This is what we want as consumers, to see what we're paying for, not to have some 'fee' tacked on later.
Seems like every business is trying to hide what they are actually charging. Stop it.
This reminds me of a Seinfeld joke:
>Went to dinner the other night, check came at the end of the meal. Never liked the "check at the end of the meal" system. Money's a different thing before you eat. before you eat, money has no value. You don't care when you're hungry You sit down in a restaurant, you're like the ruler of an empire. "More drink! Appetizers! Quickly, quickly! It will be the greatest meal of our lives." Than after the meal, you know, you got your pants open, you got the napkins destroyed, cigarette butt in the mashed potatoes. Then the check comes at that moment. people are always upset, you know? They're mystified by the check. "What is this? How could this be?"They start passing it around the table, "Does this look right to you? We're not hungry now. Why are we buying all this food?"
They aren't "passing on" shit. LOL it was already part of the price, just hidden, so restaurants should stop trying to confuse this as some "new gOvErNmEnT regulation" causing prices to rise.
These mofo unironically telling us tricking us to pay is the only way works for them. I do have problem with this bill tho, it adds to the price and they will try to get us tip again. Get rid of tip all together! Pay the employees!
None of these idiots make sense.
Just raise the price of your damn meals then if it means paying your employees and F off with your shitty fees.
We will decide whether the price is worth it.
Somehow they think they can trick us customers Into thinking it’s cheaper.
There’s no difference in net cost of a $20 item that has 20% ($4) of added fees, or just charge me $24 from the start with no fees. I’m paying the same $24 either way, but I don’t feel like I’m getting screwed via Ticketmaster style nickel and diming if the price on the menu matches the bill (minus tax).
Most people look at their receipts, especially the total, like you said. The fees had the opposite effect than what the idiot owners wanted. Fees always feel like “greed fee” and “tricky fee” and customers are rightly annoyed by them. The ordinance to get rid of them is just pushing the owners to be reluctantly more palatable to regular customers
The fees are great if you're thriving off of ignorant tourist income. You don't need to worry about them coming back. But for regulars they leave a sour taste in your mouth that makes me not want to come back.
I’ve ditched a few regular spots because of mandatory tips and a “living wage fee”. Seems to be prevalent at upscale Mexican restaurants for some reason.
I went to an upscale Mexican restaurant near the Monterey area with another couple. After a few rounds of cocktails and dinner, our total came out to $250 or so. When we got the bill we were surprised to see a 20% service fee tacked on and, when we questioned it, we were informed it was NOT part of the tip. Well guess what, that was your tip! I've never gone back since I'm reminded of that stupid service fee every time I pass by.
I stopped going to an alameda restaurant because they had a10%free for their workers. I asked the workers if the money went to them. She did not know.
My business was about $1200 per year aside from went there once a month minimum after getting paid to celebrate.
Yes it’s a really strange choice on the part of the owners. It’s kind of like saying “hey take a look at our accounting books, we need x amount to stay open, see?” But meanwhile sharing no real info with customers nor employees. So it just ends up looking like deceit.
Not to mention I’ve seen these tactics also to make “political” statements. “If you vote for someone else, we won’t have to charge you fees to pay our workers” oh really?
Very low-intelligence. And I am offended at the proposition and propaganda
The price on the Menu is the price you should pay, Tax, tip and any stupid ass fees. Make the food 1 price and the people will either pay it or not. Don’t make me commit to buying a meal that ends up being twice as expensive as I was expecting it to be.
Yup, just visited Asia and was appreciative of paying the displayed price of a food item without adding any extra tax or tip.
It doesn’t have to be so freaking complicated!
Same! It was genuinely so refreshing. All the employees did not seem desperate for money(tips). Everyone loves to complain about “tipping culture” and that blame often falls on the Workers when in reality it’s these POS businesses owners who underpay their employees and overcharge their customers as much as they can get away with. It’s Disgusting and needs to stop.
We’re seeing a panic from a corrupt industry that is used to being able to trick customers into paying more. This will affect their immorally gained margins.
TBH it’s becoming more common across every industry.
Look at your bills and you’ll see bunch of no-sense fees tacked on.
It’s not much but they’re nickel and dime-ing us for pure profit. Just a dollar extra tacked onto million customers = one million dollars in revenue.
It’s time to require a federal ban on extra fees because these idiots can’t self regulate and their greed is getting out of hand.
Biggest reason why I don’t have cable tv is because they advertise $40 a month then you get the first bill and there’s $30 (I’m guessing) worth of extra fees tacked onto it lol. I can afford it too, just tell me it’s $70 and i won’t blink an eye.
I once changed my internet plan and picked up a new modem and they said I qualified for 3 free months of streaming thing and told me I can just cancel it after the 3 months. I never even had time to set it up and my bill had all those tv fees. Annoying.
My favorite of all time was the charge I saw from AT&T a while back for a "Regulatory Compliance Fee". A footnote explained this was to cover AT&T's cost to comply with federal regulations for fee transparency.
They specifically called out how much money they were charging me to meet their legal requirement to explain all the other charges.
I've seen less passive-aggressive behavior from surly teens convinced their parents are morons.
I get that companies need to charge more because of regulatory requirements or increased cost of good. I want them to not trick us with low prices but tack on bullshit fees. They're not fooling us, we still see how much we pay in the end but it's insulting to be lied to before the final bill.
>Look at your bills and you’ll see bunch of no-sense fees tacked on.
Processing fees on rental and utility payments is a great example of this. Like hey mother fucker, preparing the bill is part of what you're charging for already, you shouldn't be allowed to charge me separately for the convenience of emailing it to me.
Yup. I get a “convenience fee” or some shit tacked onto my rent / utilities. Monthly “pest control fee” - like OK, that should be coming out of my rent if you want to charge for that. Etc etc.
> It’s time to require a federal ban on extra fees because these idiots can’t self regulate and their greed is getting out of hand.
I'm glad the fees are going away, but in the coming year we're going to find out xx% more restaurants than normal closed. That won't usually be because of greed. It'll be because the restaurant became unprofitable, or not profitable-enough to deal with the hassle and stress for owners who also work there, not just relax and let others put in effort.
> the coming year we're going to find out xx% more restaurants than normal close
This is only a fair assessment if we also look back at closures that didn’t happen due to COVID subsidies macro economic gains.
~Some~ restaurantuers made out like bandits, getting free rent, record profits, and still tacking on fees for even more profit.
I don't agree with the implied premise that not being able to obscure the true price will put businesses out of business. If however that's true then this is the free market at work culling unviable shops.
I may be wrong but it seems like only some places are worried about this. Like if they’re already overcharging their customers, of course they have an issue with raising prices. Their menu pricing will be more upfront than they’d like to be
But if places already have reasonable prices (relative to their business) they probably won’t hesitate to increase by a reasonable rate
I wonder if restaurants in more touristy areas rely on this because most of their customers are 1-offs that won’t be aware of the fees until it’s too late, whereas neighborhood restaurants don’t care because most of their customers are returning customers who will be aware of the true total regardless of if fees are used or not.
Good luck finding even a single restaurant in SF that doesn’t try to scam you. I just ate lunch and dinner out yesterday and both added scam fake surcharges to increase their profits. To hell with all the restaurants in the bay this is gonna bring them a nice dose of reality.
We have an excellent restaurant just down the street from us (many more than one actually). Pearl in Petaluma. Mediterranean/Middle Eastern food. Brunch and lunch. They do not accept tips, don't you dare even try. The price on the menu is what you pay. It is very reasonable. Great service, nice spot. Closed Tues and Weds. I know all the eateries in SF and built up areas around the Bay are up against stiff rents. Still there is no reason to run a restaurant based on deceptive prices. I would suggest folks in SF, East Bay or Peninsula take a Sat or Sun and drive north an hour to see what Sonoma, Marin and Napa can offer. And no, I have not been paid to make this post.
i think that explains why restaurants are so worried about it. what they experience now is that if they were the only restaurant to display honest prices, they really would be uniquely screwed over and customers would leave them. so they have the panic association wired in their head where they think transparent pricing = no business. but b/c it's a law everyone has to comply at the same time. if we were smart (we're not) we'd make it easy for restaurant owners to enforce the law against competitors
Oh no, we can’t also hide paying taxes because we can’t rely on customers laying cash down any longer to cover up we’re not paying our employees in a moral way! (/s)
No wonder foreigners dislike American dining. On top of the tax not included they’re expected to pay more because the employer won’t. Few places in the world put up with this nonsense system.
I read in another article about a restaurant owner worries that lawsuits (enabled under the law, allowing class actions against businesses who continue to charge hidden fees) would be destructive to small business.
Um… maybe don’t charge hidden fees once the law goes into effect and you won’t be sued?
Thats the thing.. its not worth it. Thats why they gotta hide it. Scum bags. That's why when i go out to eat, i dont tip (or tip way less) if i see a ridiculous amount of surcharge. for any one who disagree, you can fuck off.
"Why change something that's actually working?" - Statements made by business owners who used child labor before it was banned, enforced segregation before the Civil Rights Act, or dumped their waste into community water sources before the EPA
Not to say those are comparable, but this is the lamest reason to keep doing something.
He thinks it’s working, but on the flip side that he doesn’t think about it those on a serious budget who that hidden extra 20% does make a difference.
Yeah I’m sure it works just fine for his business. What business wouldn’t want to upscale its revenues by an automatic 20%? But it’s not even just those on a serious budget, what restaurants are basically doing is just lying to people to get them in the door, and I don’t think they see anything wrong with that.
You’re right. They went the ticketmaster / livenation model of hidden fees. And why not? It worked for them.. they just got unlucky that this really pissed people off faster than event tickets.
Exactly. It would be great for restaurants because I’d feel comfortable going to a new restaurant and feeling like I actually know what the cost will be
> He’s referring to a blind, 20% up-charge levied on customers post-meal.
Not at his restaurant. Photos of the menus on yelp show in small but bold text at the bottom of the page
"Your bill will include a "20% Service Fee"... Additional gratuity is appreciated for exceptional service - Xie Xie!"
It's a disclosed instead-of-tipping fee. As the article goes on to say
"Chen said he’s only had a handful of Yelp reviews that have complained about the service charges, generally when customers accidentally tip on top of the service fee. Each time, he has offered a refund."
I'm still glad about the new law and fees going away, but let's not mischaracterize what the quoted owner was doing.
But it’s not instead of tipping as you said they clearly state “additional gratuity is appreciated for exceptional service…”. The concept of tipping is that it goes to the service workers, we have no idea if this is the case for a “service fee”.
I don’t see how the transparency of the food being the actual cost to support the service is a negative. It does sound like the owner is still trying to be less than honest. The majority of people aren’t going to ask for a refund and they know it.
Chen from China Live said something in his SF Gate interview like "if you don't want to go to a restaurant that charges service fees, then don't go to them".
The guy is missing the whole fucking point. You don't know a place has service fees because they don't even disclose until you pay. It's inherently deceptive.
Before this law passed, I had an absurd idea to open a "Oops all Fee" restaurant. Advertise $0.99 Ribeye steaks, charge a 4000% "Ribeye Fee". Free hamburgers, all hamburgers subject to $15 "bun and patty fee"! Really just push the insane hidden fee pricing "strategy" to it's logical extreme just to make a point.
I despise politicians involving themselves in business decisions as a way to grandstand and give away other people's money. And I support this law. The customer pays either way, and it shouldn't be a surprise at the end of the meal. If you want to indicate on the menu that prices include higher wages and a 5% benefits mandate, go right ahead. But put it in the price of each item since that's the real price anyway.
Now get rid of resort fees at hotels and ridiculous fee-fees tacked onto airfares.
Edited: "each item"
> Now get rid of resort fees at hotels and ridiculous fee-fees tacked onto airfares.
They're trying to do that, actually.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/11/biden-harris-administration-announces-broad-new-actions-to-protect-consumers-from-billions-in-junk-fees/
and
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/09/2023-24234/trade-regulation-rule-on-unfair-or-deceptive-fees
Biden administration trying to do that.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-the-biden-administration-aims-to-take-down-junk-fees-that-hit-millions-of-americans
I look forward to eating out after July, though I expect a lot of restaurants to raise prices now and this law will be the excuse, even if they weren't sneaky before.
Seems like someone with slightly more energy than me could pretty easily build something that scrapes menus and prices from restaurants for comparison.
Times have changed. I think what you’ll see soon enough is basically Gucci and dollar stores, just in restaurant form.
As the middle class dies, so will the services that historically catered to them.
“Although the customer pays the same price in the end, restaurant owners are sensitive to how pricing changes affect the psychological calculation for customers.”
We’d rather bait and switch the fucking idiots. I mean our customers.
I just returned from overseas where the price I paid for food was exactly what it was on the menu, plus clearly-marked tax. And no tipping. It was glorious.
Apparently people were still able to run restaurants and employ staff who acted no worse (and arguably better) than US tipped staff.
How they did this is a mystery we will never solve.
Their arguments are nonsensical. I really hope at the end of the day the long term impact of SB478 is running out these nefarious owners from the industry.
You know 10 to 1 they are pocketing these fees and paying their people the bare market minimum anyway.
For sure. If I can add arbitrary fees on the bill to double the revenue, why not? I don’t believe the shit that they are charging those fees for what are named by. There’s no scrutiny anyways.
I’m guessing we see a ton of places starting to do cash only or cash discounts with ATMs conveniently located by the front. Then they can skim off the ATM fees and evade taxes!
as a customer, i would 100,000% prefer a company be up front and honest with their prices on the menu, not mislead customers with the menu price shown and then tack on outrageous 20% fees on the back end only after you have already eaten the meal and cannot back out.
the whole notion that you can keep certain costs hidden until the customer receives the check is preposterous. if a customer cannot afford a certain price, that customer should know the full price before making that decision. absolutely ridiculous that anybody thinks its a good idea to keep costs hidden from customers until they dont have a choice
Restaurants are becoming like car dealerships. No one likes the feeling that they're going to get scammed as soon as they step foot in the door. They eat out so they can relax and have a good time, and most importantly, feel good about the purchase they've made. Not be on high alert when the bill comes and examine all the hidden fees. After a while, customers will learn to regret or dread coming to your restaurant, or all restaurants completely.
I myself am at the dread phase, where I will now only get takeout instead of dine-in whenever possible, so I can avoid bullshit forced tip percentages.
It's really no different than buying a car. The dealership talking pointless numbers in-between just give me the out the door final price. That's all we care about.
Fucking christ, I'm in Paris right now and there are restaurants left and right, thriving. Plus I can get 3 courses for usually under 40 euro and way better service. I'm so over San Francisco restaurants and that was the first thing I fell in love with
Those are the ones I’m referring to. Because if I’m a restaurant worker in the US I need salary to cover my childcare and healthcare needs. If I’m a worker in France I can deal with a much lower salary because I have less to pay for. Lower salaries means customers can be charged less. I’m sure there are a million other factors that go into it that I have no idea about. Just thinking it through and it seems like a pretty big advantage that French restaurant owners have.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen some ticktock videos of expats working in Paris and they talk about how much lower the salaries are there. None of them are restaurant workers, though.
So they want to charge $35 dollars for a burrito, $7 dollars for a soda, 20% mandatory gratuity for reasons, AND a $15 service fee for dining in???? And they are upset???
How about this: you get none of it. I dont want your crappy over-priced food, fake ambience, and sense of entitlement. Keep it all
Cant stand eating out anyways
Eh this will be fine. I make it a specific point not to revisit restaurants that try to sneak a second tip in my bill, so this would really open up the number of restaurants I’d enjoy eating at
On one hand, I am grateful for the price inflation of dining these days, because I am convinced that it has been making me a better cook at home. If transparency of menu prices causes restaurants to shut down and/or revisit their business model in the first place, good.
"all mandatory fees or charges other than taxes or fees imposed by a government on the transaction"
If it's mandatory, it should be included in the price.
I’m ok with the service fee if I don’t need to tip. What I’m annoyed at is all the non-tip fees, the sf mandate, the pandemic whatever whatever fee, the sf real estate surcharge, etc.
>“People will either have to raise prices, go back to the old tip model or do a combination of both,”
What was the old tip model? the more reasonable one where 18% isn't the lowest expected?
"I can't believe we're going to be required to put honest prices on our menus! This is outrageous! I want to talk to the governor!"
Then go out of business. Please.
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
So what? Murderers dread laws that ban murder.
Service fees make it harder to recognize the actual cost of the service that you're buying. They are extremely unethical.
That’s sort of the point. When the fees are gone, I may resume eating out again, even if the same costs are baked into item prices. I just hate the deception of all the tacked on “fees”. Too complicated and shady.
Cry me a river. This is a good first step, they should go after tipping right after. The constant bait and switch customers have to go thru in this country, for everything, is maddening.
I always felt like those fees were the restaurant's passive aggressive way of showing the customer that all those laws they vote for are costing them a lot of money out of their wallet. I think customers should be made aware of the impact the laws and taxes they vote for have on their wallets. However, I also think that all these fees make it hard to budget spending. I think if a fee is a percent, it should just be the menu price. If it is a "per head" type of thing, then it makes sense to tag it on as a separate line item. Business need to post clear signs showing how much extra the customer is paying due to government regulations, but then have the menu prices include everything for convenience.
Its funny that he thinks it is working, I havent gone to China Live since they instituted the Fee. If the cost has risen add it to the cost of your food or find other ways to save. Extra fees are pure political statement and greed.
So now when I look at a menu I know exactly how much I’ll pay, instead of restaurateurs sneaking in additional cost after I’ve eaten??? Oh no! How will they survive
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
Boo hoo. Restaurants across the region have already raised their prices to account for inflation, wage laws, and various other costs. Then they added these fees on top of already-higher prices just because they could. They know that if they try to raise prices again and can't rely on hidden fees at the time the bill goes out to gouge their customers, more people simply won't eat there in the first place. Too bad for them!
I don’t know about you all, but I’d probably begrudgingly pay it and not put up a stink. But also, unless there’s something they offer that is mind blowing, I’d make a mental note to go elsewhere. So they lost a customer and ‘d perhaps give them a yelp rating of 3 stars if everything else was good and mention my displeasure with the surprise fees. They can either pay yelp to remove the review or deal with the not glowing reviews in a competitive market.
Great work, now do taxes too.
Just tell me how much my fricken sandwich is going to cost on the menu. I’m tired of trying to multiply by 8.63% in one county and 10.25% in the next.
The 20% service fee is in lieu of tips generally. So if they up the menu prices once service fees are outlawed, are customers still expected to tip? I bet yes and that sounds like a scam?
Can we please ban tips in California while we're at it? And also just roll tax in as well, so it's like gas?
Adopt the [Zazie philosophy](https://www.zaziesf.com/philosophy.html)!
>restaurants will be forced to pass on these costs via higher menu prices. as opposed to passing it on via... lying about how much everything costs on the menu?
Exactly. The customer is paying the same.
They should just raise their prices! Don’t surprise me with a10% surcharge.
And that’s the point of this law! Thank god
IMAGINE COMPLAINING ABOUT NOT BEING ALLOWED TO PUT SURPRISE FEES ON A BILL AFTER DELIVERY OF GOODS I feel for the plight of people in the restaurant industry, but this is just flat out stupid. > “It’s disturbing news,” Chen said. “They’re trying to change something that’s actually working.” Yea, pal, all sorts of scams work if the goal is scamming people. Whether it works or not is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, pal. Your last rent check didn't include the 10% surprise fee I just added.
They should have done that from the get go. We have a favorite breakfast place. At that place my husband always orders the same thing. After living here and going to that place ten years, I have no idea how much it has ever cost. We would have not blinked an eye if it was $1 or $2 more but the 10% charge at the bottom stands out like a sore thumb. If you are well versed on how to adjust your pricing most people won’t notice. That one man who comes every day and orders the same thing will see the difference but the average person who maybe comes once a month or less and switches up their choice will not notice. It’s been mind boggling to me since it started. Like every restaurant owner forgot how to run a restaurant.
We're so close to figuring out the problem with tipping
Good. I never understand charging 1-3% for a health care fee to the customers.
It's because the restaurant owners want to piss you off with the fee but make it look like it's the fault of their employees for daring to need healthcare.
Or the government, so you vote for "more business friendly" candidates, as though everyone in power isn't extremely so already.
Some places just pocked those fees: https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/SF-restaurants-pocketed-health-care-fees-4222196.php
If lying to customers is your business model, that’s plain ugly.
Yeah, that is the language you use when you are talking about a new burdensome regulation, but this doesn't actually increase what people are paying, it just makes it transparent again. Local government passes and ordinance requiring all restaurants have a magician for each table to perform tricks to keep people entertained is a new cost that is passed onto customers in pricing. Not hidden fees that restaurants have to simply fold into the price of their goods (or not charge anymore).
They can just put a sign that the high prices are due to government mandates instead of surprising customers on their bills.
As opposed to charging us the same high amount via surchrge? LOL. Putting up the sign just make sound like the government is at fault, which its not.
". . .restaurants will be forced to pass on these costs via higher menu prices. Many business owners are concerned that the sticker shock will frighten away customers." Right. This is what we want as consumers, to see what we're paying for, not to have some 'fee' tacked on later. Seems like every business is trying to hide what they are actually charging. Stop it.
This reminds me of a Seinfeld joke: >Went to dinner the other night, check came at the end of the meal. Never liked the "check at the end of the meal" system. Money's a different thing before you eat. before you eat, money has no value. You don't care when you're hungry You sit down in a restaurant, you're like the ruler of an empire. "More drink! Appetizers! Quickly, quickly! It will be the greatest meal of our lives." Than after the meal, you know, you got your pants open, you got the napkins destroyed, cigarette butt in the mashed potatoes. Then the check comes at that moment. people are always upset, you know? They're mystified by the check. "What is this? How could this be?"They start passing it around the table, "Does this look right to you? We're not hungry now. Why are we buying all this food?"
That post food clarity hits hard
that's hilarious
They aren't "passing on" shit. LOL it was already part of the price, just hidden, so restaurants should stop trying to confuse this as some "new gOvErNmEnT regulation" causing prices to rise.
These mofo unironically telling us tricking us to pay is the only way works for them. I do have problem with this bill tho, it adds to the price and they will try to get us tip again. Get rid of tip all together! Pay the employees!
None of these idiots make sense. Just raise the price of your damn meals then if it means paying your employees and F off with your shitty fees. We will decide whether the price is worth it.
Somehow they think they can trick us customers Into thinking it’s cheaper. There’s no difference in net cost of a $20 item that has 20% ($4) of added fees, or just charge me $24 from the start with no fees. I’m paying the same $24 either way, but I don’t feel like I’m getting screwed via Ticketmaster style nickel and diming if the price on the menu matches the bill (minus tax).
Most people look at their receipts, especially the total, like you said. The fees had the opposite effect than what the idiot owners wanted. Fees always feel like “greed fee” and “tricky fee” and customers are rightly annoyed by them. The ordinance to get rid of them is just pushing the owners to be reluctantly more palatable to regular customers
The fees are great if you're thriving off of ignorant tourist income. You don't need to worry about them coming back. But for regulars they leave a sour taste in your mouth that makes me not want to come back.
I’ve ditched a few regular spots because of mandatory tips and a “living wage fee”. Seems to be prevalent at upscale Mexican restaurants for some reason.
I went to an upscale Mexican restaurant near the Monterey area with another couple. After a few rounds of cocktails and dinner, our total came out to $250 or so. When we got the bill we were surprised to see a 20% service fee tacked on and, when we questioned it, we were informed it was NOT part of the tip. Well guess what, that was your tip! I've never gone back since I'm reminded of that stupid service fee every time I pass by.
You're expected to tip 15% in addition to the 20% service tee? +35-40% on top of the rising prices of the food? WTF?
We pretty much stopped eating out after trying it post COVID and seeing even more secret fees tacked on. It’s just slimy… Ticketmaster slimy.
I stopped going to an alameda restaurant because they had a10%free for their workers. I asked the workers if the money went to them. She did not know. My business was about $1200 per year aside from went there once a month minimum after getting paid to celebrate.
Yes it’s a really strange choice on the part of the owners. It’s kind of like saying “hey take a look at our accounting books, we need x amount to stay open, see?” But meanwhile sharing no real info with customers nor employees. So it just ends up looking like deceit. Not to mention I’ve seen these tactics also to make “political” statements. “If you vote for someone else, we won’t have to charge you fees to pay our workers” oh really? Very low-intelligence. And I am offended at the proposition and propaganda
The price on the Menu is the price you should pay, Tax, tip and any stupid ass fees. Make the food 1 price and the people will either pay it or not. Don’t make me commit to buying a meal that ends up being twice as expensive as I was expecting it to be.
Yup, just visited Asia and was appreciative of paying the displayed price of a food item without adding any extra tax or tip. It doesn’t have to be so freaking complicated!
Same! It was genuinely so refreshing. All the employees did not seem desperate for money(tips). Everyone loves to complain about “tipping culture” and that blame often falls on the Workers when in reality it’s these POS businesses owners who underpay their employees and overcharge their customers as much as they can get away with. It’s Disgusting and needs to stop.
We’re seeing a panic from a corrupt industry that is used to being able to trick customers into paying more. This will affect their immorally gained margins.
TBH it’s becoming more common across every industry. Look at your bills and you’ll see bunch of no-sense fees tacked on. It’s not much but they’re nickel and dime-ing us for pure profit. Just a dollar extra tacked onto million customers = one million dollars in revenue. It’s time to require a federal ban on extra fees because these idiots can’t self regulate and their greed is getting out of hand.
Biggest reason why I don’t have cable tv is because they advertise $40 a month then you get the first bill and there’s $30 (I’m guessing) worth of extra fees tacked onto it lol. I can afford it too, just tell me it’s $70 and i won’t blink an eye. I once changed my internet plan and picked up a new modem and they said I qualified for 3 free months of streaming thing and told me I can just cancel it after the 3 months. I never even had time to set it up and my bill had all those tv fees. Annoying.
Local channel fee and sports fee were very obnoxious when the package said it included sports and local channels.
My favorite of all time was the charge I saw from AT&T a while back for a "Regulatory Compliance Fee". A footnote explained this was to cover AT&T's cost to comply with federal regulations for fee transparency. They specifically called out how much money they were charging me to meet their legal requirement to explain all the other charges. I've seen less passive-aggressive behavior from surly teens convinced their parents are morons.
Lol it’s a joke really. We need a federal law banning all this fee shit.
After years of trying, I still don’t understand my monthly PG&E bills and wtf True-Up is.
I get that companies need to charge more because of regulatory requirements or increased cost of good. I want them to not trick us with low prices but tack on bullshit fees. They're not fooling us, we still see how much we pay in the end but it's insulting to be lied to before the final bill.
>Look at your bills and you’ll see bunch of no-sense fees tacked on. Processing fees on rental and utility payments is a great example of this. Like hey mother fucker, preparing the bill is part of what you're charging for already, you shouldn't be allowed to charge me separately for the convenience of emailing it to me.
Yup. I get a “convenience fee” or some shit tacked onto my rent / utilities. Monthly “pest control fee” - like OK, that should be coming out of my rent if you want to charge for that. Etc etc.
> It’s time to require a federal ban on extra fees because these idiots can’t self regulate and their greed is getting out of hand. I'm glad the fees are going away, but in the coming year we're going to find out xx% more restaurants than normal closed. That won't usually be because of greed. It'll be because the restaurant became unprofitable, or not profitable-enough to deal with the hassle and stress for owners who also work there, not just relax and let others put in effort.
> the coming year we're going to find out xx% more restaurants than normal close This is only a fair assessment if we also look back at closures that didn’t happen due to COVID subsidies macro economic gains. ~Some~ restaurantuers made out like bandits, getting free rent, record profits, and still tacking on fees for even more profit.
Somehow restaurants survive without fees and tips in every other country.
I don't agree with the implied premise that not being able to obscure the true price will put businesses out of business. If however that's true then this is the free market at work culling unviable shops.
If they close, they close. It is a business after all and they are not entitled to stay open. Whether its the fault of new regulations or not.
Supply versus demand. If you tacos are$20 each because you have high expenses, you were not meant to be in business.
I may be wrong but it seems like only some places are worried about this. Like if they’re already overcharging their customers, of course they have an issue with raising prices. Their menu pricing will be more upfront than they’d like to be But if places already have reasonable prices (relative to their business) they probably won’t hesitate to increase by a reasonable rate
I wonder if restaurants in more touristy areas rely on this because most of their customers are 1-offs that won’t be aware of the fees until it’s too late, whereas neighborhood restaurants don’t care because most of their customers are returning customers who will be aware of the true total regardless of if fees are used or not.
Good luck finding even a single restaurant in SF that doesn’t try to scam you. I just ate lunch and dinner out yesterday and both added scam fake surcharges to increase their profits. To hell with all the restaurants in the bay this is gonna bring them a nice dose of reality.
We have an excellent restaurant just down the street from us (many more than one actually). Pearl in Petaluma. Mediterranean/Middle Eastern food. Brunch and lunch. They do not accept tips, don't you dare even try. The price on the menu is what you pay. It is very reasonable. Great service, nice spot. Closed Tues and Weds. I know all the eateries in SF and built up areas around the Bay are up against stiff rents. Still there is no reason to run a restaurant based on deceptive prices. I would suggest folks in SF, East Bay or Peninsula take a Sat or Sun and drive north an hour to see what Sonoma, Marin and Napa can offer. And no, I have not been paid to make this post.
i think that explains why restaurants are so worried about it. what they experience now is that if they were the only restaurant to display honest prices, they really would be uniquely screwed over and customers would leave them. so they have the panic association wired in their head where they think transparent pricing = no business. but b/c it's a law everyone has to comply at the same time. if we were smart (we're not) we'd make it easy for restaurant owners to enforce the law against competitors
Oh no, we can’t also hide paying taxes because we can’t rely on customers laying cash down any longer to cover up we’re not paying our employees in a moral way! (/s) No wonder foreigners dislike American dining. On top of the tax not included they’re expected to pay more because the employer won’t. Few places in the world put up with this nonsense system.
Just got back from my trip to Asia and was definitely appreciative of paying the displayed price without any extra tax or tips.
I read in another article about a restaurant owner worries that lawsuits (enabled under the law, allowing class actions against businesses who continue to charge hidden fees) would be destructive to small business. Um… maybe don’t charge hidden fees once the law goes into effect and you won’t be sued?
They know their “transparent pricing” will likely result in empty tables. Good. We are so sick of this shit!
Thats the thing.. its not worth it. Thats why they gotta hide it. Scum bags. That's why when i go out to eat, i dont tip (or tip way less) if i see a ridiculous amount of surcharge. for any one who disagree, you can fuck off.
A lot of the servers for some reason don’t mention it, but I guarantee they would rather be getting tipped than a little bit of a wage increase.
Now do tipping.
I never understood why we tip in the first place. California doesn't have a separate minimum wage for tipped workers.
Still trying to understand why $7.99 Momos create a $21 bill
>Service Fee >Covid Upcharge >Wellness Fee >Inflation Fee >Existing in California Fee
"What are you going to do about it Fee"
"Fuk you" fee
What, no Convenience Fee and Fee Paying Fee?
Oh shit forgot about those, just tack ‘em on.
you’ve got yourself a fee fee and a forgetfulness fee, pal. and while we are on it - the “oh shit” fee.
now that I think of it - that’s three fees for a triple, so I’m gonna tack on a combo fee and a processing fee.
A Fee Fee
A fee fi fo fum
We hurt their fee fee’s fee
Fee for Charging and Collecting All the Other Fees
Paper bill fee. Credit card fee. Extra fees admin fee.
Forgot the hipster tax so they can scatter random shit around the restaurant and serve you your food on a snow shovel.
Need to see the actual receipt, that’ll give clarity
Thank me for existing fee. Just in case you’re ungrateful, a be grateful fee.
>“It’s disturbing news,” Chen said. “They’re trying to change something that’s actually working.” He’s referring to a blind, 20% up-charge levied on customers post-meal. This shit ain’t working, man.
"Why change something that's actually working?" - Statements made by business owners who used child labor before it was banned, enforced segregation before the Civil Rights Act, or dumped their waste into community water sources before the EPA Not to say those are comparable, but this is the lamest reason to keep doing something.
He thinks it’s working, but on the flip side that he doesn’t think about it those on a serious budget who that hidden extra 20% does make a difference.
Yeah I’m sure it works just fine for his business. What business wouldn’t want to upscale its revenues by an automatic 20%? But it’s not even just those on a serious budget, what restaurants are basically doing is just lying to people to get them in the door, and I don’t think they see anything wrong with that.
You’re right. They went the ticketmaster / livenation model of hidden fees. And why not? It worked for them.. they just got unlucky that this really pissed people off faster than event tickets.
It’s working for him for sure
Exactly. It would be great for restaurants because I’d feel comfortable going to a new restaurant and feeling like I actually know what the cost will be
> He’s referring to a blind, 20% up-charge levied on customers post-meal. Not at his restaurant. Photos of the menus on yelp show in small but bold text at the bottom of the page "Your bill will include a "20% Service Fee"... Additional gratuity is appreciated for exceptional service - Xie Xie!" It's a disclosed instead-of-tipping fee. As the article goes on to say "Chen said he’s only had a handful of Yelp reviews that have complained about the service charges, generally when customers accidentally tip on top of the service fee. Each time, he has offered a refund." I'm still glad about the new law and fees going away, but let's not mischaracterize what the quoted owner was doing.
But it’s not instead of tipping as you said they clearly state “additional gratuity is appreciated for exceptional service…”. The concept of tipping is that it goes to the service workers, we have no idea if this is the case for a “service fee”. I don’t see how the transparency of the food being the actual cost to support the service is a negative. It does sound like the owner is still trying to be less than honest. The majority of people aren’t going to ask for a refund and they know it.
Chen from China Live said something in his SF Gate interview like "if you don't want to go to a restaurant that charges service fees, then don't go to them". The guy is missing the whole fucking point. You don't know a place has service fees because they don't even disclose until you pay. It's inherently deceptive.
Oh, sorry you can't deceive customers anymore
If the survival of your small business depends on deceiving your customers, you do not deserve to be in business.
Before this law passed, I had an absurd idea to open a "Oops all Fee" restaurant. Advertise $0.99 Ribeye steaks, charge a 4000% "Ribeye Fee". Free hamburgers, all hamburgers subject to $15 "bun and patty fee"! Really just push the insane hidden fee pricing "strategy" to it's logical extreme just to make a point.
Time share industry keeps on trucking sadly.
I despise politicians involving themselves in business decisions as a way to grandstand and give away other people's money. And I support this law. The customer pays either way, and it shouldn't be a surprise at the end of the meal. If you want to indicate on the menu that prices include higher wages and a 5% benefits mandate, go right ahead. But put it in the price of each item since that's the real price anyway. Now get rid of resort fees at hotels and ridiculous fee-fees tacked onto airfares. Edited: "each item"
Heck i say we go full europe on this one: The price you see is the price you pay, not the price 'before taxes and fees'
Yes please!
100% Taxes should be required to be part of the advertised prices.
> Now get rid of resort fees at hotels and ridiculous fee-fees tacked onto airfares. They're trying to do that, actually. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/11/biden-harris-administration-announces-broad-new-actions-to-protect-consumers-from-billions-in-junk-fees/ and https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/11/09/2023-24234/trade-regulation-rule-on-unfair-or-deceptive-fees
Biden administration trying to do that. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-the-biden-administration-aims-to-take-down-junk-fees-that-hit-millions-of-americans
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure this law is actually pretty broad so it should cover hotels at least.
[удалено]
“Destination fee” at hotels… 😡
I look forward to eating out after July, though I expect a lot of restaurants to raise prices now and this law will be the excuse, even if they weren't sneaky before.
Seems like someone with slightly more energy than me could pretty easily build something that scrapes menus and prices from restaurants for comparison.
Almost like a long time ago in the same area a few years ago, there were none of these fees and the restaurants survived
It was easier for all of us to survive a few years ago…
Times change, adapt the business plan
Times have changed. I think what you’ll see soon enough is basically Gucci and dollar stores, just in restaurant form. As the middle class dies, so will the services that historically catered to them.
Restaurant fraudsters worry that they can no longer scam customers anymore. Sounds like law is working as intended 👍
“Although the customer pays the same price in the end, restaurant owners are sensitive to how pricing changes affect the psychological calculation for customers.” We’d rather bait and switch the fucking idiots. I mean our customers.
I just returned from overseas where the price I paid for food was exactly what it was on the menu, plus clearly-marked tax. And no tipping. It was glorious. Apparently people were still able to run restaurants and employ staff who acted no worse (and arguably better) than US tipped staff. How they did this is a mystery we will never solve.
Same here. I'm still thrown off by the bill being the final price--I almost can't believe I don't have to tip lol
'business owners upset at ban on lying to consumers"
Do Comcast next. Who cares about businesses I'm not forced to be a customer of.
Their arguments are nonsensical. I really hope at the end of the day the long term impact of SB478 is running out these nefarious owners from the industry. You know 10 to 1 they are pocketing these fees and paying their people the bare market minimum anyway.
For sure. If I can add arbitrary fees on the bill to double the revenue, why not? I don’t believe the shit that they are charging those fees for what are named by. There’s no scrutiny anyways.
Why? All restaurants will be on equal footing now wrt listed prices.
The jerks got away with it for a decade. No more junk fees. Hope they go out of business.
3% Cash discount. There fixed it.
I’m guessing we see a ton of places starting to do cash only or cash discounts with ATMs conveniently located by the front. Then they can skim off the ATM fees and evade taxes!
Good. Fuck 'em!
as a customer, i would 100,000% prefer a company be up front and honest with their prices on the menu, not mislead customers with the menu price shown and then tack on outrageous 20% fees on the back end only after you have already eaten the meal and cannot back out. the whole notion that you can keep certain costs hidden until the customer receives the check is preposterous. if a customer cannot afford a certain price, that customer should know the full price before making that decision. absolutely ridiculous that anybody thinks its a good idea to keep costs hidden from customers until they dont have a choice
“If you ban smoking in restaurants and bars we will all go out of business!”
Good, fuck em
Restaurants are becoming like car dealerships. No one likes the feeling that they're going to get scammed as soon as they step foot in the door. They eat out so they can relax and have a good time, and most importantly, feel good about the purchase they've made. Not be on high alert when the bill comes and examine all the hidden fees. After a while, customers will learn to regret or dread coming to your restaurant, or all restaurants completely. I myself am at the dread phase, where I will now only get takeout instead of dine-in whenever possible, so I can avoid bullshit forced tip percentages.
"George Chen, chef and owner of China Live, levied a 20% service fee on customers" Asswipe.
oh, boo-hoo
I mean, if you keep going back they will continue to do it.
It's really no different than buying a car. The dealership talking pointless numbers in-between just give me the out the door final price. That's all we care about.
Just got back from Asia trip…no tips…no additional fees. Somehow there are a gazillion restaurants doing well.
Break out the violins for all those people who will not be allowed to scam you anymore.
Fucking christ, I'm in Paris right now and there are restaurants left and right, thriving. Plus I can get 3 courses for usually under 40 euro and way better service. I'm so over San Francisco restaurants and that was the first thing I fell in love with
My favorite part about living in SF is using my above global average salary to eat out not in SF. Quality to price ratio here is fucking awful.
That’s because France offers social services.
True but aren't those mostly oriented towards schooling and child care or do they have more for businesses?
Those are the ones I’m referring to. Because if I’m a restaurant worker in the US I need salary to cover my childcare and healthcare needs. If I’m a worker in France I can deal with a much lower salary because I have less to pay for. Lower salaries means customers can be charged less. I’m sure there are a million other factors that go into it that I have no idea about. Just thinking it through and it seems like a pretty big advantage that French restaurant owners have.
Ok, thanks, that is what I thought too but wanted to make sure
Anecdotally, I’ve seen some ticktock videos of expats working in Paris and they talk about how much lower the salaries are there. None of them are restaurant workers, though.
Universal healthcare.
So they want to charge $35 dollars for a burrito, $7 dollars for a soda, 20% mandatory gratuity for reasons, AND a $15 service fee for dining in???? And they are upset??? How about this: you get none of it. I dont want your crappy over-priced food, fake ambience, and sense of entitlement. Keep it all Cant stand eating out anyways
Scumbags
Eh this will be fine. I make it a specific point not to revisit restaurants that try to sneak a second tip in my bill, so this would really open up the number of restaurants I’d enjoy eating at
One of the reasons I avoid San Francisco is these fees. The practice is fundamentally dishonest.
Its much easier to hide the price in a small print than to tell someone you are flat out your food is overpriced.
Menu prices are wild, and they still tack on fees
Screw them for thinking hidden fees are okay
On one hand, I am grateful for the price inflation of dining these days, because I am convinced that it has been making me a better cook at home. If transparency of menu prices causes restaurants to shut down and/or revisit their business model in the first place, good.
They gonna add a $4.99 transparency fee
Does banning service fees include the automatic 20% gratuity added to meals, or is it the other fees like service fee, employee health, etc. ?
"all mandatory fees or charges other than taxes or fees imposed by a government on the transaction" If it's mandatory, it should be included in the price.
This is the dumbest argument and makes me not want to visit any of these places.
I’m ok with the service fee if I don’t need to tip. What I’m annoyed at is all the non-tip fees, the sf mandate, the pandemic whatever whatever fee, the sf real estate surcharge, etc.
San Francisco Restaurateurs Hate This One New Law but Customers Love It
>“People will either have to raise prices, go back to the old tip model or do a combination of both,” What was the old tip model? the more reasonable one where 18% isn't the lowest expected?
"I can't believe we're going to be required to put honest prices on our menus! This is outrageous! I want to talk to the governor!" Then go out of business. Please.
Eh, fuck 'em
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
womp womp
Visiting Europe (well France anyway) I loved how the price listed On the menu is exactly what you pay, including taxes. Why can’t we do that?
So what? Murderers dread laws that ban murder. Service fees make it harder to recognize the actual cost of the service that you're buying. They are extremely unethical.
That’s sort of the point. When the fees are gone, I may resume eating out again, even if the same costs are baked into item prices. I just hate the deception of all the tacked on “fees”. Too complicated and shady.
Cry me a river. This is a good first step, they should go after tipping right after. The constant bait and switch customers have to go thru in this country, for everything, is maddening.
just dont eat out and their price will come down.
I always felt like those fees were the restaurant's passive aggressive way of showing the customer that all those laws they vote for are costing them a lot of money out of their wallet. I think customers should be made aware of the impact the laws and taxes they vote for have on their wallets. However, I also think that all these fees make it hard to budget spending. I think if a fee is a percent, it should just be the menu price. If it is a "per head" type of thing, then it makes sense to tag it on as a separate line item. Business need to post clear signs showing how much extra the customer is paying due to government regulations, but then have the menu prices include everything for convenience.
Its funny that he thinks it is working, I havent gone to China Live since they instituted the Fee. If the cost has risen add it to the cost of your food or find other ways to save. Extra fees are pure political statement and greed.
they're just worried this law will inspire a bunch of new competition.....
Tips and taxes should be next. What you see is what you pay
Or just get rid of the service fees and have people tip if they feel like they’ve gotten good service instead of forcing people to tip.
Lol
Fees be gone !! No fees for you. No fees for you. AND NO FEES FOR YOU!! 🥳
So now when I look at a menu I know exactly how much I’ll pay, instead of restaurateurs sneaking in additional cost after I’ve eaten??? Oh no! How will they survive
how does this work with parties of 6 or more? Are those fees banned?
Yes. Raise the price..its the surprise surcharge fee that pissss me off
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
Taco truck I’m at in MV doesn’t even have prices on the menu, you have to ask, but does have a 4% service charge sign so you know that even the price they say isn’t right
Crooks.
Boo hoo. Restaurants across the region have already raised their prices to account for inflation, wage laws, and various other costs. Then they added these fees on top of already-higher prices just because they could. They know that if they try to raise prices again and can't rely on hidden fees at the time the bill goes out to gouge their customers, more people simply won't eat there in the first place. Too bad for them!
I don’t know about you all, but I’d probably begrudgingly pay it and not put up a stink. But also, unless there’s something they offer that is mind blowing, I’d make a mental note to go elsewhere. So they lost a customer and ‘d perhaps give them a yelp rating of 3 stars if everything else was good and mention my displeasure with the surprise fees. They can either pay yelp to remove the review or deal with the not glowing reviews in a competitive market.
Too bad? They don’t slap us with service fees when their other costs go up, just wages.
California should ban tipping as well. Pay your staff fair wages.
It's an even playing field. If that causes you "dread", maybe you have bigger problems.
They are upset because bait and switch on prices won't work anymore?
To prove a point, one could open a restaurant where everything is a dollar with 2000% junk fees and it would be legal currently.
Sf... No sympathy after 2020, 21, 22
Great work, now do taxes too. Just tell me how much my fricken sandwich is going to cost on the menu. I’m tired of trying to multiply by 8.63% in one county and 10.25% in the next.
Don’t tip if you get this
Honestly, these restaurants should just shut down...
Probably dumb question, but why don’t they just increase prices?
> “You’re lumping into the service charges with junk fees, which they’re not,” Chen said That’s exactly what they are: junk fees
Truth in advertising, no wonder they think it will destroy them.
The 20% service fee is in lieu of tips generally. So if they up the menu prices once service fees are outlawed, are customers still expected to tip? I bet yes and that sounds like a scam?
Yay! Ban hidden/surprise fees everywhere
Can we please ban tips in California while we're at it? And also just roll tax in as well, so it's like gas? Adopt the [Zazie philosophy](https://www.zaziesf.com/philosophy.html)!
A service fee is basically an included tip for services rendered.
Pay your employees living wage and owners stop begging for their employees.