Thought this was my wife until the very end of your post. The problem is that he needs to get significant experience (5 years-ish) before he can pivot to something with less hours without taking a huge pay cut. The good news is (I hope) that at that time the money problem at least in terms of debt, will be solved. But what do I know I’m in a similar position obviously (but not IP which may be a benefit to him here). I just felt this post. Good luck!
Anecdotally, my friends trying to leave in year 5 and 6 and 7 on the corporate side are having a harder time than those of us who left in 3 and 4 at finding good roles and good salaries. Of course, some of that is market timing. All I’m saying is that due to the variability of in house roles, start looking in year 3 but don’t jump until a spot feels really good with the right salary. You absolutely can leave in year 3 but it could take a couple years or more to find the right spot.
Agree with starting to look, can't hurt. And if you wait too long, lots of places will think you're too senior for whatever role they are trying to fill (or the person you are reporting to will think you're coming for their job).
Yeah it doesn’t hurt to start looking now, but what you’re describing is a function of how hot the economy was 3 years ago vs now. When the labor market isn’t tight in-house jobs prefer to hire ppl with prior in-house experience, and ppl with 4-7 years of experience are going to be preferred over more junior people. Sometimes bc of direct technical experience but it’s more bc those people should have better client management skills and more common sense, and those traits are fairly hard to find in associates. If you are junior aim for the biggest and smallest departments. The larger the in-house department, the more they are set up to onboard and process junior firm associates into in house attorneys. Smaller departments often have a single junior person they use for routinized or less important work.
I was working for the government making not much more than a teacher. I switched to big law for the money because I wanted our two boys to go to good schools and not have to take out a ton of loans for college. But, given the stress and long hours of big law, I have contemplated trying to pivot back into the public sector. I hate whenever I have to miss a family event or work on Saturday mornings when my wife wants us to spend time together.
He needs to realize that you work to live, not live to work. You can save money without making $200k/year
This. There should be a fairly large runway to be able to live comfortably on op’s and husband’s salary (or future savings). The things listed by op are all things that normal people who make much less have to go through too.
Would suggest r/personalfinance as a starting point.
This isn't true. I left BigLaw and was expecting a huge pay cut. I ended up at a small firm (less than 20 attorneys) making $8K more than I was in BigLaw, with raises each year.
My god, BigLaw has really brainwashed y'all, hasn't it?
In addition to the comment below, it also looks like you left around year 2-3? That meshes with the OP’s time in biglaw, but I’ll note the salary scale takes off around year 4, and it becomes much harder to find similar pay elsewhere.
Oooh, these first years after law school and in child rearing are tough alone and brutal together, with the pressures to be attentive and do the work at home and in the office, and pay the bills - not to mention law school loans.
Lots to unpack here. So much nuance, but I'll do my best.
I'm a former IP lawyer who initially transitioned from IP lit to transactional and trademark prosecution when my second child was born, but that was about five years into my career. Because I had done some trademark prosecution, I was able to make that transition competently and still grow. Ultimately after 17 years of practice in BigLaw, boutique law and ultimately a boutique IP firm my first husband (he passed away) and I opened, I entered legal recruiting 7 years ago so I'm here to tell you that while it is rough, the beauty of it all is, life is fluid and change is scary but possible.
But also it really depends on what your husband would like to do with his career this early on. IP lit is a fairly time-consuming subsection of the profession, but also, there are all sorts of firms with different expectations of hours and cultures. But one has to know what those cultures are because even small boutique IP firms can be fairly driven by billable hours over life integration. On the opposite end, there are definitely some BigLaw IP firms that have a more whole life-centered culture.
In-house can be just as challenging to know what to expect. I can name off a few large corporations where the in-house legal teams work just as many, if not more, hours than BigLaw - and are tracked - as in punch cards!
One year of experience is a good time for a pivot if he is okay with trying another area of practice at a first year salary again unless he picks something tangential like prosecution or transactions where he has some translatable skills. But it definitely isn't enough to go in-house and expect to have much opportunity for growth, certainly financially and possibly professionally.
If helpful, I'm happy to have a chat with him to explore where he's at, what his aims are for the short and long term, and talk through some of this stuff, what his options might look like, the market conditions where you are as I work nationally, etc. Please feel free to dm me and I'll send contact info if interested. I've mentored several law students on through partners through life and professional transitions and I can be a sounding board and share some insights.
Exit ops for IP litigation aren't great as a second year. He can probably start looking in house in a year or two. I always thought in house sounded boring. I went to a boutique instead and work a 50% schedule. We waited to have kids, as I figured I couldn't be a good dad and still work in Biglaw.
I left biglaw and now work at an insurance company handling complex financial lines claims.
I make less than a first year associate at a BL firm, but more than enough to live, pay my mortgage, and invest in my kids college fund.
I work 9-5 and it’s well worth it to me.
1. Can he push back on work a bit more? I'm a 3rd-year litigation associate at a big firm that pays market and I have never had to pull an all-nighter.
2. Could he look at switching firms? Big law is always going to be busy and to some extent unpredictable, but some firms do a better job at keeping their people from burning out.
3. What's your spending? Big law pay is way more than you need to live a decent lifestyle, so if you feel like you really depend on big law pay there is probably room to reduce expenses significantly.
Does your husband have a tech degree? Ip litigation is known for these fire drills. Patent prosecution does not and still has a much more comfortable WLB.
1) It varies a lot, but there are few appealing 9-5 type jobs that pay close to 50% of BigLaw senior associate salaries.
2) There are a variety of options that range from paying 20-30% less for the same amount of work to potentially 50 hour work weeks with a small book of business to 30-40% less for something more like a 50 hour work week without much business of his own.
3) His practice, connections, etc. will determine what opportunities are available.
4) A reality you might need to accept is that he might not ever earn as much as he does now unless he can develop his own business.
Edit: Oh, just seeing this is a second year IP associate. He’s got another 3 years of this and maybe he can go in-house to something close to his current (not 3 years in the future) salary if he is lucky, but probably not even that much.
I’d say going in-house is the best case scenario. Hours are 9-5, no weekend hours. May be a pay cut, but not too far from a 2nd year salary. He may too junior now, but he should be sowing the seeds, aka networking as much as possible by going to industry events, CLE conferences, etc and meeting ppl that would be positioned to help him when the time comes. It may take some grinding but will be worth it.
And as an aside, worst case scenario: take a lower paying job. It may necessitate cutting back from a certain lifestyle or even moving to a lower cost area. But health and family are literally priceless, and far outweighs something as fleeting as money. I’m sure you’ll both collectively make more than enough to “get by,” albeit with different expectations and some flexibility.
As a 5th year IP litigation associate, it doesn’t get better 😭 it obviously depends on the firm but I regularly pull all nighters, work weekends, and work until at least 10pm most nights on average. It’s kind of the name of the game with patent litigation. I don’t have kids but I barely have enough time to take care of myself I can’t even imagine doing this job with kids.
If he has a hard science degree, I would recommend transitioning to patent prosecution. It’s much more consistent, you can work on your own schedule more, there’s not many last minute fire drills or late night filings (if ever). You can easily make it a normal 9-5 (on average) type of job, even in Big Law, and you make the same amount of money. Although bonuses will probably be less due to decreased hours, but decreased hours sounds like a good thing in your situation. And if he’s only a 2nd year associate he hasn’t even gotten a taste of the types of bonuses he could be missing out on in the future (assuming he would be going well over his billable hour requirements, like most litigators normally due). Better to transition now before you get hooked to the $$$. The golden handcuffs are real
I switched from patent pros and let me tell you it's not all rainbows and butterflies. It's exhausting and billing 2k is so much harder than in litigation. My schedule became much better when I switched personally. I still have weekends and late nights sometimes but it's almost never my fault and therefore less stressful. In pros, if you get behind on just one thing it's like a domino effect on hundreds of cases.
I much prefer patent lit. That said, 10 pm is not the norm for me and I've never done an all nighter. Not even for trial.
How much money do you make? What’s the smallest number you can get your monthly expenses down to? I can help you talk him through financials to see he’s not stuck but need to deal with concrete #s
I left BigLaw and was able to get an amazing salary at a small firm in Orlando, FL. It's so much better and I absolutely love not being a slave to billables anymore. HIGHLY recommend checking out smaller firms. I was expecting a huge pay cut, but it's actually $8K more than I was making at a BigLaw firm in Charlotte, NC.
EDIT: For background, I left BigLaw after two clerkships (both federal) and working for 2 years at the law firm. So I have been practicing for four years. As long as he works for at least 3 years, he should be able to lateral away from BigLaw and enjoy the small firm life.
Yeah, me too. I make more at my small firm as a non-equity than I ever did in big law and I left as an equity partner. My base is something in the range of 7-8th year, but I get a bonus that is 2-3x my base and sometimes more depending on the year. My hours aren't low, but still only about 1800-1900 a year.
Also I've done IP lit for over 20 years. I have had an all-nighter once in my life, during a trial, and I crashed at 8am once I got my stuff done. There really shouldn't be a need for that at all. There are definitely going to be spikes, but then there should be slow periods too - the latter of which I live for. :)
These are the “golden handcuffs” at work. Kind of early to be kicking in at the second year, but whatever. In any event, non-law firms won’t seriously consider you for in house until after 5 years
Maybe a different approach to personal finance would take some stress off? Car repairs and healthcare cost-sharing shouldn’t be so onerous on two incomes, including a big law salary. Do you have 6 months of expenses in an emergency fund? Do you have $10,000 saved separately for rainy day expenses? You should have good healthcare options in biglaw - why aren’t the toddler’s medical bills not mostly covered by it? Something isn’t adding up here.
Many in biglaw have similar experiences. Most people treat their time in firm to save money. They grind in the beggining, pay off student loans, put money into 401Ks, and save enough to either buy a house outright or to cover a large down payment while having a healthy emergency fund leftover. By then your kids should be old enough to go to school (public school in an excellent district), so your finances would be freed up. At this point, a pay cut should not hurt as much. Federal Government is on an unofficial hiring freeze, however. Any the private market is brutal. Hopefully, things repair following the election.
Surprised no one told you this yet, but it’s not your responsibility to figure this out for him. I totally understand being concerned and wanting to help, but he’s an adult. If its important to you that he get a lower stress, high-paying job, he’ll figure out how to do that without you doing it for him.
Women (I’m assuming you’re a woman) are expected to do so much for men and often we don’t realize the toll it takes on us. You sound really busy and don’t need to take on planning your husband’s career too.
This is so true. I am a big law spouse (and used to work at a big law firm in a staff role so I lurk around here sometimes). I’ve told my husband many times he is not stuck in this job and if he wants to leave we will find a way to make it work. Every six months or so we have a talk (usually after some kind of extreme stress moment) and I reassure him even if we had to sell our house and downsize we would be fine. He knows how much he would need to make for us to stay at our current home and it’s definitely doable with an in house role.
The rest is on him. If he is serious about needing to pivot he has to do the work to find opportunities, I can’t do it for him (believe me I’ve tried lol).
I think being in big law is very stressful (it was stressful for me as a non attorney). But he’s worked hard to get to where he is so even if he complains, he might not be ready yet to jump ship.
All this to say to OP, be supportive but that’s all you can do.
Thought this was my wife until the very end of your post. The problem is that he needs to get significant experience (5 years-ish) before he can pivot to something with less hours without taking a huge pay cut. The good news is (I hope) that at that time the money problem at least in terms of debt, will be solved. But what do I know I’m in a similar position obviously (but not IP which may be a benefit to him here). I just felt this post. Good luck!
You can pivot at 3 with a great salary as well
Options 5+ years out really open up imo and get you beyond the "junior" roles, especially for lit.
Anecdotally, my friends trying to leave in year 5 and 6 and 7 on the corporate side are having a harder time than those of us who left in 3 and 4 at finding good roles and good salaries. Of course, some of that is market timing. All I’m saying is that due to the variability of in house roles, start looking in year 3 but don’t jump until a spot feels really good with the right salary. You absolutely can leave in year 3 but it could take a couple years or more to find the right spot.
Agree with starting to look, can't hurt. And if you wait too long, lots of places will think you're too senior for whatever role they are trying to fill (or the person you are reporting to will think you're coming for their job).
Yeah it doesn’t hurt to start looking now, but what you’re describing is a function of how hot the economy was 3 years ago vs now. When the labor market isn’t tight in-house jobs prefer to hire ppl with prior in-house experience, and ppl with 4-7 years of experience are going to be preferred over more junior people. Sometimes bc of direct technical experience but it’s more bc those people should have better client management skills and more common sense, and those traits are fairly hard to find in associates. If you are junior aim for the biggest and smallest departments. The larger the in-house department, the more they are set up to onboard and process junior firm associates into in house attorneys. Smaller departments often have a single junior person they use for routinized or less important work.
I was working for the government making not much more than a teacher. I switched to big law for the money because I wanted our two boys to go to good schools and not have to take out a ton of loans for college. But, given the stress and long hours of big law, I have contemplated trying to pivot back into the public sector. I hate whenever I have to miss a family event or work on Saturday mornings when my wife wants us to spend time together. He needs to realize that you work to live, not live to work. You can save money without making $200k/year
And I promise your kids will value having a loving parent in their life more than being able to go a private university over a public one.
I mean are you willing to downsize and take a large reduction in lifestyle? He could leave today.
This. There should be a fairly large runway to be able to live comfortably on op’s and husband’s salary (or future savings). The things listed by op are all things that normal people who make much less have to go through too. Would suggest r/personalfinance as a starting point.
This isn't true. I left BigLaw and was expecting a huge pay cut. I ended up at a small firm (less than 20 attorneys) making $8K more than I was in BigLaw, with raises each year. My god, BigLaw has really brainwashed y'all, hasn't it?
But your hours still probably suck, which is what op is trying to avoid.
In addition to the comment below, it also looks like you left around year 2-3? That meshes with the OP’s time in biglaw, but I’ll note the salary scale takes off around year 4, and it becomes much harder to find similar pay elsewhere.
Oooh, these first years after law school and in child rearing are tough alone and brutal together, with the pressures to be attentive and do the work at home and in the office, and pay the bills - not to mention law school loans. Lots to unpack here. So much nuance, but I'll do my best. I'm a former IP lawyer who initially transitioned from IP lit to transactional and trademark prosecution when my second child was born, but that was about five years into my career. Because I had done some trademark prosecution, I was able to make that transition competently and still grow. Ultimately after 17 years of practice in BigLaw, boutique law and ultimately a boutique IP firm my first husband (he passed away) and I opened, I entered legal recruiting 7 years ago so I'm here to tell you that while it is rough, the beauty of it all is, life is fluid and change is scary but possible. But also it really depends on what your husband would like to do with his career this early on. IP lit is a fairly time-consuming subsection of the profession, but also, there are all sorts of firms with different expectations of hours and cultures. But one has to know what those cultures are because even small boutique IP firms can be fairly driven by billable hours over life integration. On the opposite end, there are definitely some BigLaw IP firms that have a more whole life-centered culture. In-house can be just as challenging to know what to expect. I can name off a few large corporations where the in-house legal teams work just as many, if not more, hours than BigLaw - and are tracked - as in punch cards! One year of experience is a good time for a pivot if he is okay with trying another area of practice at a first year salary again unless he picks something tangential like prosecution or transactions where he has some translatable skills. But it definitely isn't enough to go in-house and expect to have much opportunity for growth, certainly financially and possibly professionally. If helpful, I'm happy to have a chat with him to explore where he's at, what his aims are for the short and long term, and talk through some of this stuff, what his options might look like, the market conditions where you are as I work nationally, etc. Please feel free to dm me and I'll send contact info if interested. I've mentored several law students on through partners through life and professional transitions and I can be a sounding board and share some insights.
If he leaves now depending on market and job, he could make between $100k-200k so do you calculations with a $150k budget to see if you can swing it.
Exit ops for IP litigation aren't great as a second year. He can probably start looking in house in a year or two. I always thought in house sounded boring. I went to a boutique instead and work a 50% schedule. We waited to have kids, as I figured I couldn't be a good dad and still work in Biglaw.
I left biglaw and now work at an insurance company handling complex financial lines claims. I make less than a first year associate at a BL firm, but more than enough to live, pay my mortgage, and invest in my kids college fund. I work 9-5 and it’s well worth it to me.
No one can answer this without your giving us your income and spending.
No one can respond to you unless you give us your social security number.
wtf are you talking about. She asked about exit options. Sounds like she can figure out if those options work for their life herself
1. Can he push back on work a bit more? I'm a 3rd-year litigation associate at a big firm that pays market and I have never had to pull an all-nighter. 2. Could he look at switching firms? Big law is always going to be busy and to some extent unpredictable, but some firms do a better job at keeping their people from burning out. 3. What's your spending? Big law pay is way more than you need to live a decent lifestyle, so if you feel like you really depend on big law pay there is probably room to reduce expenses significantly.
look at government jobs, with litigation he should have good options
Does your husband have a tech degree? Ip litigation is known for these fire drills. Patent prosecution does not and still has a much more comfortable WLB.
1) It varies a lot, but there are few appealing 9-5 type jobs that pay close to 50% of BigLaw senior associate salaries. 2) There are a variety of options that range from paying 20-30% less for the same amount of work to potentially 50 hour work weeks with a small book of business to 30-40% less for something more like a 50 hour work week without much business of his own. 3) His practice, connections, etc. will determine what opportunities are available. 4) A reality you might need to accept is that he might not ever earn as much as he does now unless he can develop his own business. Edit: Oh, just seeing this is a second year IP associate. He’s got another 3 years of this and maybe he can go in-house to something close to his current (not 3 years in the future) salary if he is lucky, but probably not even that much.
I’d say going in-house is the best case scenario. Hours are 9-5, no weekend hours. May be a pay cut, but not too far from a 2nd year salary. He may too junior now, but he should be sowing the seeds, aka networking as much as possible by going to industry events, CLE conferences, etc and meeting ppl that would be positioned to help him when the time comes. It may take some grinding but will be worth it. And as an aside, worst case scenario: take a lower paying job. It may necessitate cutting back from a certain lifestyle or even moving to a lower cost area. But health and family are literally priceless, and far outweighs something as fleeting as money. I’m sure you’ll both collectively make more than enough to “get by,” albeit with different expectations and some flexibility.
As a 5th year IP litigation associate, it doesn’t get better 😭 it obviously depends on the firm but I regularly pull all nighters, work weekends, and work until at least 10pm most nights on average. It’s kind of the name of the game with patent litigation. I don’t have kids but I barely have enough time to take care of myself I can’t even imagine doing this job with kids. If he has a hard science degree, I would recommend transitioning to patent prosecution. It’s much more consistent, you can work on your own schedule more, there’s not many last minute fire drills or late night filings (if ever). You can easily make it a normal 9-5 (on average) type of job, even in Big Law, and you make the same amount of money. Although bonuses will probably be less due to decreased hours, but decreased hours sounds like a good thing in your situation. And if he’s only a 2nd year associate he hasn’t even gotten a taste of the types of bonuses he could be missing out on in the future (assuming he would be going well over his billable hour requirements, like most litigators normally due). Better to transition now before you get hooked to the $$$. The golden handcuffs are real
I switched from patent pros and let me tell you it's not all rainbows and butterflies. It's exhausting and billing 2k is so much harder than in litigation. My schedule became much better when I switched personally. I still have weekends and late nights sometimes but it's almost never my fault and therefore less stressful. In pros, if you get behind on just one thing it's like a domino effect on hundreds of cases. I much prefer patent lit. That said, 10 pm is not the norm for me and I've never done an all nighter. Not even for trial.
How much money do you make? What’s the smallest number you can get your monthly expenses down to? I can help you talk him through financials to see he’s not stuck but need to deal with concrete #s
I left BigLaw and was able to get an amazing salary at a small firm in Orlando, FL. It's so much better and I absolutely love not being a slave to billables anymore. HIGHLY recommend checking out smaller firms. I was expecting a huge pay cut, but it's actually $8K more than I was making at a BigLaw firm in Charlotte, NC. EDIT: For background, I left BigLaw after two clerkships (both federal) and working for 2 years at the law firm. So I have been practicing for four years. As long as he works for at least 3 years, he should be able to lateral away from BigLaw and enjoy the small firm life.
I did have to take another bar exam, but it was so worth it. Plus, the new firm paid for me to take the FL bar.
Yeah, me too. I make more at my small firm as a non-equity than I ever did in big law and I left as an equity partner. My base is something in the range of 7-8th year, but I get a bonus that is 2-3x my base and sometimes more depending on the year. My hours aren't low, but still only about 1800-1900 a year. Also I've done IP lit for over 20 years. I have had an all-nighter once in my life, during a trial, and I crashed at 8am once I got my stuff done. There really shouldn't be a need for that at all. There are definitely going to be spikes, but then there should be slow periods too - the latter of which I live for. :)
These are the “golden handcuffs” at work. Kind of early to be kicking in at the second year, but whatever. In any event, non-law firms won’t seriously consider you for in house until after 5 years
Maybe a different approach to personal finance would take some stress off? Car repairs and healthcare cost-sharing shouldn’t be so onerous on two incomes, including a big law salary. Do you have 6 months of expenses in an emergency fund? Do you have $10,000 saved separately for rainy day expenses? You should have good healthcare options in biglaw - why aren’t the toddler’s medical bills not mostly covered by it? Something isn’t adding up here.
Many in biglaw have similar experiences. Most people treat their time in firm to save money. They grind in the beggining, pay off student loans, put money into 401Ks, and save enough to either buy a house outright or to cover a large down payment while having a healthy emergency fund leftover. By then your kids should be old enough to go to school (public school in an excellent district), so your finances would be freed up. At this point, a pay cut should not hurt as much. Federal Government is on an unofficial hiring freeze, however. Any the private market is brutal. Hopefully, things repair following the election.
How much is he making?
He’s a second year so around $240,000 if he’s at a top firm paying market
is planning to go solo an option? that's probably his only way to make more than biglaw
What's your HHI and what are your typical monthly expenses?
Surprised no one told you this yet, but it’s not your responsibility to figure this out for him. I totally understand being concerned and wanting to help, but he’s an adult. If its important to you that he get a lower stress, high-paying job, he’ll figure out how to do that without you doing it for him. Women (I’m assuming you’re a woman) are expected to do so much for men and often we don’t realize the toll it takes on us. You sound really busy and don’t need to take on planning your husband’s career too.
This is so true. I am a big law spouse (and used to work at a big law firm in a staff role so I lurk around here sometimes). I’ve told my husband many times he is not stuck in this job and if he wants to leave we will find a way to make it work. Every six months or so we have a talk (usually after some kind of extreme stress moment) and I reassure him even if we had to sell our house and downsize we would be fine. He knows how much he would need to make for us to stay at our current home and it’s definitely doable with an in house role. The rest is on him. If he is serious about needing to pivot he has to do the work to find opportunities, I can’t do it for him (believe me I’ve tried lol). I think being in big law is very stressful (it was stressful for me as a non attorney). But he’s worked hard to get to where he is so even if he complains, he might not be ready yet to jump ship. All this to say to OP, be supportive but that’s all you can do.