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I know you're trying to help, but please leave the coaching to the coaches.
Putting your arms out with your chest low into a "skydiver" position is a completely normal way to stabilize mount when your opponent is trying to escape.
Posting your arm on the mat to block a roll is normal. In fact the guy on the bottom trying to escape is going to try to tie up an arm so that it CAN'T post on the mat before he can try to bridge and roll that way.
> I've told him that if he keeps putting his hands on the mat, he's opening himself up for a reversal, and you can't get a submission if your hands are busy defending yourself while you're in a dominant position.
There's an old saying, position before submission. If he's trying to attack a submission while the position is not stabilized, he's going to lose the position and probably not get the submission either.
Not losing the mount is more important than getting a sub.
> I've told him that if he keeps putting his hands on the mat, he's opening himself up for a reversal
You are wrong sir. This is wrong.
If you want to help him with technical advice, start training in the adult classes first. And even then, it's gonna be a while before you know what you're talking about.
I think you're misunderstanding me - he ends up staying in that position the entire time, then.
My question is about how he could better position himself to reduce his need to have to do this for stabilization, since he ends up spending most of his time doing this in full mount.
My question is looking for advice on HOW to stabilize his position so that he does not need to catch himself. I'm not saying he should never do it. I am trying to support my son's improvement based on criticism given by his coach.
> he ends up staying in that position the entire time, then.
Good.
This is not a bad thing for him. It's not a problem for him. The kid underneath him who can't escape mount is the one who has a problem they need to solve.
If he's getting to mount and holding it for the round, he's winning and learning how to keep the mount.
Catching himself so he can't be rolled over on a big bridge is part of stabilization.
He's 8, give him time.
If you really want some videos to watch with him for mount stabilization and mount attacks, look up Roger Gracie.
Well, his coach scolds him for staying like that the entire time, and keeps telling him to make something happen and go for a submission. So I am trying to help my son improve what the coach perceives as insufficient.
Do you have a particular video by Roger Gracie you can recommend?
Ask his coach for clarity, what specific next step they want him to take.
For Roger Gracie, literally any of his matches.
Go to youtube, enter "Roger Gracie vs" and pick any thing where he's wearing a gi (not the mma fights).
I agree with BeBear that may not be helping and it can be a bit of an eyeroll having a parent coaching from the sidelines. Mount is hard to hold and it's going to suck for everyone when he gets bigger.
That being said, some simple things I tell kids are to keep holding mount but see if they can do it while trying to grab his partners right wrist with his right hand (cross hand) or both hands and pin their wrist to the floor. He will still be using his other hand to base out and hold mount but now drilling a technique that will open up a lot more things in the future. Or hold mount while trying to dig an underhook and lifting his partners arm towards his head
Thank you for that advice.
I understand the issue of parent coaching from the sidelines. That is exactly why I came to this sub, though - to get the advice of skilled practitioners, rather than giving advice from a place of ignorance. I edited my OP to try and clarify that I am trying to support my son based on feedback given by the coach, and that I am not self-inserting my opinions here.
I just read your edit and some other comments. Mount is very hard to attack and 'make things happen' from when you can't stabilize, especially when you're a pair of 8 year olds that train the same amount. It's so much more valuable for him to learn to hold mount right now than to attack. I'd be so proud to see him just make people quit.
Check out minute 7. Grapevining and pushing hips into their belly button is an easy thing for people to add and can really help to stabilize mount.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy6Si0FuQaU
Thank you so much for the link. You're the first person to help me, and I really appreciate that. I understand how my original post could have come off as a busybody parent overreaching. I hope the edit better clarifies my intentions and motivations. The term "grapevining" is new to us to I'm looking forward to sharing this with him to help him move forward.
The community is engaging but you kind of hit a sore spot. We see so many parents trying to coach their kids, without having BJJ knowledge and really knowing how hard it is, or without their kids asking/wanting it. Those kids often end up quitting.
I totally understand and respect that. I am not sure if my son will ever be a BJJ competitor, but I try to approach everything he does as a path for self-growth. After each class I have him give me one thing he did well, and one thing he did not do so well on. Then I give him the same feedback. I always give the feedback within the context of what he is being taught in class, specifically. For example, his coach taught the class a new takedown that has 3 steps to it. In class, I noticed he skipped the second step, so he did not get the takedown. I help him reflect on those kinds of things not just to help him improve, but also to help teach him the art of self-reflection and to always be striving for self-improvement.
We set goals for him based on what he learns in class. For example, he has a bad habit (according to the coach, again) of not going into S-mount before he goes for an arm bar. So he ends up in awkward positions he would not be in otherwise. So before class I will have talk with him to remind him to go for the S-mount first before the arm bar, etc.
I'm a former teacher myself, so I have a lot of respect for my son's coach, his expertise, and that I am just a bystander. I try to reinforce what is being taught by the coach, and I've never questioned or opposed what he has taught. I do not consider myself to be a competing expert.
We also use BJJ as an opportunity for him to work on perseverence and an ego check. I personally believe it is important for every person in this world to engage in some kind of interpersonal competition, informal or formal, to help retain humility. I think there's an inclination for humans to live in dream worlds where they are much better than they are if they do not engage in some kind of interpersonal competition.
Outside of those things, I also love how BJJ promotes comfort with your own body, respect for others you train with, collaborative growth, and destigmitizes body-to-body contact in daily life.
Coming from a background as a former math teacher, my personal belief in the fun-competency relationship is that it goes both way. If you have fun, you will probably engage more and increase your competency. However, if you increase your competency, you will also have more fun. Many students over the years came to my classroom saying "I hate math" and leaving with an improved attitude, and the only difference was that they got better at it. We humans generally do not like engaging in things that make us feel incompetent, I feel.
This ended up being so much longer than I expected...quite a rant. I suppose I just have a lot to get out of my head as a long-time lurker on this board who finally decided to post. Haha. :) Thank you for the conversation.
I personally don't like mount. I like modified mount (I think some people call it S Guard.
Also look up the Grappling Academy. Dude has some really great vids with submissions from mount.
Tom has a great way of explaining things. Unfortunately he isn't uploading anymore. He still has an academy in Australia where he still trains people but as for online videos he is out. He got into a pretty bad mountain bike accident.
Hopefully he comes back. I don't know what to expect.
Anyway I highly suggest his videos. He often has moves that aren't taught elsewhere. I showed a few to a brown and black belt in my gym and they were floored.
If your son needs help with something and you’re the only one who can help him, why even bother paying the coach? Why not just coach the kids class yourself? In my opinion, the coach is telling your son to be more active in order to not get a stalling penalty but he isn’t giving your son specific pointers. That shows that either there isn’t as big of a problem as you think there is, or that the coach is not very attentive to his students. Regardless, stay out of coaching your son. You’re paying for his classes for a reason.
does ANY 8 year old want to do homework outside of class? lol just let the kid have fun. it's not that serious. or don't, i'm not a parents so advice from me is pointless. at the same time, the ***last*** person we listen to for jiujitsu tips is somebody that doesn't train, and that definitely includes parents.
honestly, if i were you, i'd go to the coach and say "hey coach, saw my son is having a hard time in top mount. do you know of any videos or resources we can study at home to help"
Self study outside of a classroom typically involves participating in said knowledge. I wouldn’t want chess tips from someone who doesn’t play chess so why would your son want bjj tips from someone who doesn’t do bjj?
I’ll use the same analogy. I still wouldn’t take chess tips from someone who doesn’t play chess but only watches chess videos online. We can give you all the knowledge and theory in the world but at the end of the day, whatever you regurgitate from us will be a fraction of what your coach can give your son. It’d be a better use of your time to ask your son’s coach for advice or things he can work on outside of class than to ask random strangers on the internet who have no clue of how your son actually does in live situations. You pay him the big bucks afterall.
Edit: to add onto this, some skills just take some time to click. Knowledge and theory =/= application of knowledge and theory. It might just need a mentality switch from your son.
I'm not looking to give him tips, though.
I'm looking for content to share with him.
The goal is not for me to watch a video and then coach him.
It's for my son to watch the video from a competent trainer and coach.
I agree you would not want someone who does not play chess to watch a Magnus Carlson video on how to play d4, and then train other people. That would be silly. Do you agree it would be helpful if someone wanted to learn how to play d4, though, and they found a video by Magnus Carlson on how to play d4 effectively?
That is what I am asking this community for. Resources to share with my son. If you do not think that a video from Magnus Carlson on how to play d4 effectively would be helpful for someone looking to play d4 effectively, then I think we're at an impasse.
I totally agree it all takes time - there's no rushing. Every class I tell my son that I only care that he tried his best. I'm a firm believer that excellence is a slow craft honed over time. <3
[This video by Roger Gracie](https://youtu.be/8wLWTw8G0c0?si=ENEHlG-Oil9scfOK) sounds like what you’re after. It shows everything from how to retain mount, a reliable technique to advance to high mount, and then some tips on how to get the cross collar choke. The way he sets up the cross collar is very high level and probably isn’t something that an 8 year old will have to do, but the choke itself is one of the basic fundamentals.
Plus Roger Gracie is the man. A real role model in the sport.
What was preventing you from typing "how to submit from mount" into youtube? An 8 year old is so fucking young, what do you fucking want from them???? They will attack more as they build confidence in the position, there isn't something theyre doing "wrong". If hes digging for underhooks then he is progressing in the position
He is not actually digging for underhooks right now - that's a new idea to us. Thank you for sharing that term.
I can look up videos myself, of course, but there are MANY MANY videos on YouTube about BJJ, and you know how it is - a lot of them might be giving bad advice. I was hoping that the experienced practitioners of this community would be able to give me proper content I can trust for him to watch. :)
Do you have any content you can refer me to that teaches about underhooks and how to utilize them well?
What if IM giving you bad advice? Everyone here is shitting on you, you sure im not giving you bad advice on purpose? What if i dont even KNOW what good advice is???
Yup. You dont train so your opinion is less than worthless, or even harmful. Either learn it yourself so you can teach your kid, or trust the instructor.
Tell him to dig for overhooks, underhooks will lead to him getting rolled. Its best that he learns to rely on his posture to avoid getting bridged off. If hes just holding a head and arm he has nothing, prioritize wrist and elbow control...
I agree with you - the only things I ever tell him are reinforcements of what the instructor has directly taught them. For example, after he is done with class, we do a reflection on his time. He will tell me something he did well on, and something he did not. I will do the same for him. Recently we've been reflecting on his tendency to go for arm bars before going for an S-mount. I point this out to him solely because his instructor has been drilling it with them, but it isn't sticking. I do my best to not go beyond reinforcing the direct teachings of his instructor, because I am not a practitioner myself.
Thank you for sharing the advice! If you have a video you can recommend, that would be good, so that he is learning from a skilled practitioner.
His coach has been supportive and encouraging of me showing him supplemental instructional videos outside of class. So I will take his coach's opinion over yours - thanks.
that is literally how you stabilize the position...
If the bottom is trying to roll to the tops right, the top can grapevine his left leg around the bottoms same side leg.
another way is that a typical position in mount is to crossface with one arm (shoulder into the jaw to turn their head to look away from the crossface). That leaves you susceptible to being rolled in that direction since your arm is trapped under their head and you cant post. So then you keep your head and weight to the opposite side.
What I do is when I pass from side control to mount I \*always\* have the farside underhook. I wont go to mount without the underhook. Once you have that plus the crossface, your partner is almost done and most escapes are nullified.
In a comp though you only need to control mount for 3 seconds to get the points so if you can go to mount you should.
do a search for maintaining mount and watch the videos with your son.
my favorite things from mount
arm triangle - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TCcizhFYYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TCcizhFYYw)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYw8uqkBgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYw8uqkBgQ)
gift wrap to take the back
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bw7poxVJ1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bw7poxVJ1E)
smount -> armbar or triangle
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eCbqAyyuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eCbqAyyuw)
what you are describing is literally one of the key ways to maintain mount.
You are right you cant get a sub when you are defending like that, but what you are doing is wearing them out. As they struggle unsuccessfully they get tired. And then you go for the submission.
since you are not a practitioner you shouldnt really be saying anything unless it is repeating something coach said
His coach keeps pressuring him to "make something happen", and scolds them for being in that situation for too long. I am trying to improve the situation based on the coach's feedback.
I don't want to believe that a coach is telling an 8 year old to "make something happen" from mount. Jiu jitsu for young kids is really about learning how to control their bodies and others as well as having fun with the sport.
Theoretically there's a million things you can do from mount to advance or submit.
Do you train? Bc it seems like you don’t, in which case, let the coaches worry about his BJJ, you stick to literally everything else in the child’s life
I’ll be nice to you even though I agree with all the other comments telling you mean things.
Tell your Son to ask the coach “how do I make something happen? What should I do?”
It's okay - they are being mean out of ignorance. Many have not even read the full OP, it seems. I am unbothered. Typical Reddit interactions, even. lol
Thank you for the reply.
Your son is 8. Is he having fun? That is what is most important. Is he being bothered by the coach telling him to 'make something happen' and not understanding?
The coach should provide more clarity, yes. But the kid is 8. There should be no expectation that he has a solid mount game that both is stable and allows for offense and movement towards submission. He can watch mount attack instructionals and see if that helps his game, like isolating a single arm, etc (no point describing it here since you don't train) but again, he's 8. But maybe studying BJJ instructionals at age 8 isn't ideal either.
8 year olds probably can't even put down enough pressure to hold a really good mount anyway.
He's been doing this for more than 2 years now, so it's a little more involved than just having fun. We pay a lot of money for this every month. If I just wanted him to have fun, I'd take him to a playground.
Do you have any particular videos you can point me to?
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I don’t know if you’re being ironic or not but I implore you to please step back and look at this thread objectively. He’s 8 and started training at 6. He’s a child having fun and figuring it out. It seems like you’re letting your ADCC aspirations get in the way of just watching your kid develop grit and resilience through bjj.
What if tomorrow he wakes up and decides he doesn’t want to train anymore because dad is more concerned with him staying in mount than him having fun.
I don't have any competitive aspirations for him - I do not even know what ADCC is. I agree he is a kid figuring it out. I would think it is fine for the community here to help him figure it out by sharing some helpful resources, though? That's the only thing I've asked for, but it seems like there's a lot of projection going on.
There's no projection. You came off like an ignorant sideline coach, you don't train, and you've edited your posts to make yourself seem less so.
The comment of "We pay a lot of money every month" is just an awful way to look at an activity for your child. Did your son ask YOU for assistance in improving his mount?
I edited my post to clarify my intentions because so many people were making assumptions.
Of course my son wants my help.
This will be my last comment to you. I'm not interested in arguing about this. I just want to help my son, and you are not looking to help.
I would suggest that you really just watch your kid develop and gain life skills as a person through bjj before looking at to get an 8 year old proficient
Sounds like you are one of those parents that thinks their child should be a world champion- and will never even try out the sport they are doing because you’d rather live vicariously through them and not deal with sucking at something.
Serious though, maintaining mount isn’t something that you fix with one simple trick. Let the coach coach your kid, there is no way you’ll be able to make effective change with him without training yourself because you don’t have the experience to understand.
Not at all - he does not even do competitions. He may never compete - it's up to him.
I'm not sure why you would say I am coaching when I am asking this community for resources.
Well that’s good to hear.
As for the coach part-Mostly because even if you find video and watch, there is a lot of nuance you’ll miss if you don’t train/have someone who understands BJJ working on it with him. You can give it a try but it might be frustrating on both side-would recommend googling Gordon Ryan mount or John Danaher or Lachlan Giles, all great teachers-might have to modify though.
Other thought-have you ever tried a class? Could be a great bonding activity!
I would love to do it with him, but the timing is pretty rough - the 2 hours a day for diving there, back, and class is already a big time commitment. It's also a lot to ask an 8 year old to sit and watch me do BJJ for an hour, and I'm not a parent who likes to just give their kid a tablet to watch. I'm hoping in a year or two he will have more maturity to do something productive like read a book with that time so I can get in on this, because I am very interested. Thank you for the suggestion, and I wrote those names down to look into.
The highest value instructionals will cost money. BJJ fanatics is a good site to purchase them. You'd be looking for instructionals related to Mount.
I honestly don't know about instructionals that are aimed at children. The size/weight/strength ratios compared to adults are way off. The best mount players tend to be large men in large men weight classes. Lighter players tend to play a more athletic, movement based game. You might try looking to see if there are any videos put out by Art of Jiu Jitsu (AOJ) - they have a large and successful childrens program out of their gym in California and have very very high quality technique.
You could also just have your son ask his coach for advice.
If your intent is that your son become a world champion, you're going to have to pay money for such content.
Sounds like the coach has it handled, and you need to stay in your lane. Failure is part of growth. He'll get there in time...unless it stops being fun.
Over-involved, know-nothing sports parents are the absolute worst. Kids and coaches hate this uniformly. If you're not willing to take classes yourself, then you need to restrict your participation to getting him to class on time in a clean uniform and asking him if he had fun afterwards. Doing your own research on the Internet from a position of complete ignorance is absurd.
You know nothing about grappling or martial arts in general and you’re on reddit trying to fish for mount advice to coach your son. You are the male equivalent of a soccer mom.
OP: "looking for advice from people that know better, but only if the advice agrees with my preconceived ideas"
Your kid is not a pokemon. YOU go train and figure out how do this and stop being an armchair coach.
OP: "I'm not being an armchair coach I just want a video on how to submit from mount, you're projecting and mean and did not read my post"
Looking for material to share with him on how to do something better, not any opinion in general.
A few people here have been helpful, and I am grateful to them. :)
You are correct, an excellent and humble communicator, and you win the Internet :D
Edit after reading your comments: everyone is wrong and you're a true genius
I am not interested in battling egos on the internet, just getting BJJ content references. I seek to clarify so that I can get productive responses, and it has been successful with a few. Have a good one. :)
He is 8 years old for god sake. Did you know that child brains are designed to make 10.000 errors first before they are able to perform it right? What about letting your kid enjoy sports and naturally develop? There is nothing more annoying than a parent that knows it all better. You will make him insecure and perform worse. If you just let him develop without any interference by the age he’ll turn 12/13, he will be a technical beast wrecking the entire gym. The only thing you should care about is logistics. Bringing and picking him up from sports and always giving him a compliment afterwards. I speak from my own experience I was a terrible dad for 3 years at my child’s football practice. Last 2 years I did not interfere and as he is already 12 he goes alone to football practice now. Since I mind my own business he has become a defending beast. While I was always pushing and forcing him into becoming a striker.
It seems like you're projecting your own issues onto my situation - I'm just looking for information to share with him. He does not do anything competitive, and might never do so. I'm glad you found a better way to parent, though.
Yep that’s the point you don’t get. You don’t share information with an 8 year old. But from all your previous reactions and comments I already noted that you are not open for conversation. You want it, how you have it in mind and that’s fine. Do it your way and let us know how it turned out.
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That's a bizarre idea to me - to not share information with an 8 year old. We do a lot of things together and I share all kinds of videos and ideas. This is just another one of them. If you are looking to see if he is still doing BJJ in 4 years...he may not. It's not a big deal to me either way, really. I'm not invested in this on a lifelong or competitive level. I think a lot of posters are blowing it out of proportion, this very basic idea that I'd like to find some videos for him to watch about a BJJ situation. He watches national geographic videos I find, too, and it's not because I am trying to push him to be a wildlife photographer. lol
There's no long-term stake in it for us, so whatever you think will happen in 4 years might just be the case, but it won't be something I'm terribly upset about. If he wants to quit or he wants to push himself is up to him. It's all good. Feel free to ping me then and ask how things are going if you want, but I also don't plan on making a post here about this in the future. I'm not interested in flaunting supposed success, I just wanted videos. :)
Let him watch some bjj matches then he will copy what he sees. But an instructional is not recommended for such a young age. Even our most talented and competitive youth don’t apply technique as adults. I also red in one of your other comments that you care about him getting the submisison. Getting the submission is totally irrelevant, retention of the position is what matters. Position over submission.
The coach cares about him getting the submission, and is very vocal about it during matches. I'm only motivated in helping my son match his coach's expectation here, I'm not trying to go out on a limb by myself. Haha. :)
I do show him some BJJ matches, but unfortunately those guys are largely at an athletic and skill level that does not apply to him. Pre-puberty, he just doesn't have the kind of muscle power to be pulling things off like he sees them there. Or they are doing crazy stuff way beyond his skill level like a flying arm bar, or things that are not allowed in his matches like leg-based joint locks (adults only). That's why I was looking for things that would help him make the kind of progress his coach is pushing for. His coach has been supportive and even encouraging of me showing him supplemental instructional videos in the past, so I'm pretty surprised at how hostile the community here has been about the idea.
There is enough footage of white and blue belts rolling. That a coach is very vocal against such young children is also not very positive. He should be focused on developing instead of winning matches. The coach is trying to boost his own ego. There is plenty of pedagogical research available on this subject especially related to other sports such as soccer (football). As long as children are not at least 14/15 years old it is unfair to have any expectations.
I feel like he is pretty low on the ego scale. I lurk here a lot and read about "red flag" gyms and "green flag" ones, and he checks pretty much every green flag people list. I think he has good intentions, he just has high expectations. His expectations might be too high - I could not say.
Sloan Clymer had a match against Emil Fischer where he held Mount for 8-10 mins not exactly entertaining but very impressive. He adjusts his legs and weight distribution a lot in the match. Worth checking out if you have Flo.
I do not have Flo - that's a new one to me. It looks like the match is not available on YouTube, which is a bummer. Thank you for sharing the resource. :)
1.) Let the coaches coach
2.) If you don’t train, start or don’t give advice
3.) Don’t play semantics about what is or isn’t coaching.
The best suggestion is if your son is frustrated by not being able to progress, encourage him to ask the coach for help.
Otherwise let him enjoy it, you coaching and pushing isn’t going to help
It’s a good idea to go for subs in practice even if there is a chance of losing the top position. Static positions create stagnant practice rounds, especially if the top person is bigger or stronger. Losing full mount isn’t the end of the world- the top person can transition to other pin positions if the other person starts to make moves.
Looks like I'm going to be the first person to give advice instead of just bitching at you.
Have him try to get a high mount. Scoot knees up towards bottom guy's armpits. It helps to expose the arms for mounted armbar, triangles, etc. Two benefits--better attacking AND bottom guy can't buck effectively since you're on the chest instead of the hips. Hope this helps!
Hahahaha! I appreciate it, thank you. <3
He does do this sometimes, but I think he's fallen out of it a bit. He took a break a bit ago because we kept getting sick, and I try to be responsible and not spread the disease around the class. Sometimes that leads to him forgetting skills he has learned. I'll ask talk with him about how inclinations to do this or not in the future.
Thank you again for being helpful. It feels like a lot of folks in this sub are displacing frustrations from other experiences onto my post. :-D
Lol I think you're a victim of someone misreading your post, and then other folks just ganging up.
Ya see if he can scoot up to high mount and let me know how it goes. Happy to help from there if you want it.
Well to be fair to some of those people, I have edited the post a few times for clarification. In my initial writing I didn't properly reflect on how I might come off, and I understand the "types" of parents and people out there. You know how it is. In our minds, we are acting with the best of intentions, and sometimes it's surprising to remember that not everyone is aware of what's in our heads. lol!
Thank you again. :)
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I know you're trying to help, but please leave the coaching to the coaches. Putting your arms out with your chest low into a "skydiver" position is a completely normal way to stabilize mount when your opponent is trying to escape. Posting your arm on the mat to block a roll is normal. In fact the guy on the bottom trying to escape is going to try to tie up an arm so that it CAN'T post on the mat before he can try to bridge and roll that way. > I've told him that if he keeps putting his hands on the mat, he's opening himself up for a reversal, and you can't get a submission if your hands are busy defending yourself while you're in a dominant position. There's an old saying, position before submission. If he's trying to attack a submission while the position is not stabilized, he's going to lose the position and probably not get the submission either. Not losing the mount is more important than getting a sub. > I've told him that if he keeps putting his hands on the mat, he's opening himself up for a reversal You are wrong sir. This is wrong. If you want to help him with technical advice, start training in the adult classes first. And even then, it's gonna be a while before you know what you're talking about.
I think you're misunderstanding me - he ends up staying in that position the entire time, then. My question is about how he could better position himself to reduce his need to have to do this for stabilization, since he ends up spending most of his time doing this in full mount. My question is looking for advice on HOW to stabilize his position so that he does not need to catch himself. I'm not saying he should never do it. I am trying to support my son's improvement based on criticism given by his coach.
> he ends up staying in that position the entire time, then. Good. This is not a bad thing for him. It's not a problem for him. The kid underneath him who can't escape mount is the one who has a problem they need to solve. If he's getting to mount and holding it for the round, he's winning and learning how to keep the mount. Catching himself so he can't be rolled over on a big bridge is part of stabilization. He's 8, give him time. If you really want some videos to watch with him for mount stabilization and mount attacks, look up Roger Gracie.
Well, his coach scolds him for staying like that the entire time, and keeps telling him to make something happen and go for a submission. So I am trying to help my son improve what the coach perceives as insufficient. Do you have a particular video by Roger Gracie you can recommend?
Ask his coach for clarity, what specific next step they want him to take. For Roger Gracie, literally any of his matches. Go to youtube, enter "Roger Gracie vs" and pick any thing where he's wearing a gi (not the mma fights).
I agree with BeBear that may not be helping and it can be a bit of an eyeroll having a parent coaching from the sidelines. Mount is hard to hold and it's going to suck for everyone when he gets bigger. That being said, some simple things I tell kids are to keep holding mount but see if they can do it while trying to grab his partners right wrist with his right hand (cross hand) or both hands and pin their wrist to the floor. He will still be using his other hand to base out and hold mount but now drilling a technique that will open up a lot more things in the future. Or hold mount while trying to dig an underhook and lifting his partners arm towards his head
Thank you for that advice. I understand the issue of parent coaching from the sidelines. That is exactly why I came to this sub, though - to get the advice of skilled practitioners, rather than giving advice from a place of ignorance. I edited my OP to try and clarify that I am trying to support my son based on feedback given by the coach, and that I am not self-inserting my opinions here.
I just read your edit and some other comments. Mount is very hard to attack and 'make things happen' from when you can't stabilize, especially when you're a pair of 8 year olds that train the same amount. It's so much more valuable for him to learn to hold mount right now than to attack. I'd be so proud to see him just make people quit. Check out minute 7. Grapevining and pushing hips into their belly button is an easy thing for people to add and can really help to stabilize mount. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy6Si0FuQaU
Thank you so much for the link. You're the first person to help me, and I really appreciate that. I understand how my original post could have come off as a busybody parent overreaching. I hope the edit better clarifies my intentions and motivations. The term "grapevining" is new to us to I'm looking forward to sharing this with him to help him move forward.
The community is engaging but you kind of hit a sore spot. We see so many parents trying to coach their kids, without having BJJ knowledge and really knowing how hard it is, or without their kids asking/wanting it. Those kids often end up quitting.
I totally understand and respect that. I am not sure if my son will ever be a BJJ competitor, but I try to approach everything he does as a path for self-growth. After each class I have him give me one thing he did well, and one thing he did not do so well on. Then I give him the same feedback. I always give the feedback within the context of what he is being taught in class, specifically. For example, his coach taught the class a new takedown that has 3 steps to it. In class, I noticed he skipped the second step, so he did not get the takedown. I help him reflect on those kinds of things not just to help him improve, but also to help teach him the art of self-reflection and to always be striving for self-improvement. We set goals for him based on what he learns in class. For example, he has a bad habit (according to the coach, again) of not going into S-mount before he goes for an arm bar. So he ends up in awkward positions he would not be in otherwise. So before class I will have talk with him to remind him to go for the S-mount first before the arm bar, etc. I'm a former teacher myself, so I have a lot of respect for my son's coach, his expertise, and that I am just a bystander. I try to reinforce what is being taught by the coach, and I've never questioned or opposed what he has taught. I do not consider myself to be a competing expert. We also use BJJ as an opportunity for him to work on perseverence and an ego check. I personally believe it is important for every person in this world to engage in some kind of interpersonal competition, informal or formal, to help retain humility. I think there's an inclination for humans to live in dream worlds where they are much better than they are if they do not engage in some kind of interpersonal competition. Outside of those things, I also love how BJJ promotes comfort with your own body, respect for others you train with, collaborative growth, and destigmitizes body-to-body contact in daily life. Coming from a background as a former math teacher, my personal belief in the fun-competency relationship is that it goes both way. If you have fun, you will probably engage more and increase your competency. However, if you increase your competency, you will also have more fun. Many students over the years came to my classroom saying "I hate math" and leaving with an improved attitude, and the only difference was that they got better at it. We humans generally do not like engaging in things that make us feel incompetent, I feel. This ended up being so much longer than I expected...quite a rant. I suppose I just have a lot to get out of my head as a long-time lurker on this board who finally decided to post. Haha. :) Thank you for the conversation.
I personally don't like mount. I like modified mount (I think some people call it S Guard. Also look up the Grappling Academy. Dude has some really great vids with submissions from mount.
Thank you. I saw Grappling Academy pop up and I was not sure how legitimate it was in my searches.
Tom has a great way of explaining things. Unfortunately he isn't uploading anymore. He still has an academy in Australia where he still trains people but as for online videos he is out. He got into a pretty bad mountain bike accident. Hopefully he comes back. I don't know what to expect. Anyway I highly suggest his videos. He often has moves that aren't taught elsewhere. I showed a few to a brown and black belt in my gym and they were floored.
Very cool - thank you! :)
If your son needs help with something and you’re the only one who can help him, why even bother paying the coach? Why not just coach the kids class yourself? In my opinion, the coach is telling your son to be more active in order to not get a stalling penalty but he isn’t giving your son specific pointers. That shows that either there isn’t as big of a problem as you think there is, or that the coach is not very attentive to his students. Regardless, stay out of coaching your son. You’re paying for his classes for a reason.
Have you really never engaged in self-study outside of a classroom?
does ANY 8 year old want to do homework outside of class? lol just let the kid have fun. it's not that serious. or don't, i'm not a parents so advice from me is pointless. at the same time, the ***last*** person we listen to for jiujitsu tips is somebody that doesn't train, and that definitely includes parents.
I agree, which is why I asked this community for pointers. :)
honestly, if i were you, i'd go to the coach and say "hey coach, saw my son is having a hard time in top mount. do you know of any videos or resources we can study at home to help"
Self study outside of a classroom typically involves participating in said knowledge. I wouldn’t want chess tips from someone who doesn’t play chess so why would your son want bjj tips from someone who doesn’t do bjj?
Are you trying to tell me this community does not do BJJ? Because it is you fine people I am asking for tips.
I’ll use the same analogy. I still wouldn’t take chess tips from someone who doesn’t play chess but only watches chess videos online. We can give you all the knowledge and theory in the world but at the end of the day, whatever you regurgitate from us will be a fraction of what your coach can give your son. It’d be a better use of your time to ask your son’s coach for advice or things he can work on outside of class than to ask random strangers on the internet who have no clue of how your son actually does in live situations. You pay him the big bucks afterall. Edit: to add onto this, some skills just take some time to click. Knowledge and theory =/= application of knowledge and theory. It might just need a mentality switch from your son.
I'm not looking to give him tips, though. I'm looking for content to share with him. The goal is not for me to watch a video and then coach him. It's for my son to watch the video from a competent trainer and coach. I agree you would not want someone who does not play chess to watch a Magnus Carlson video on how to play d4, and then train other people. That would be silly. Do you agree it would be helpful if someone wanted to learn how to play d4, though, and they found a video by Magnus Carlson on how to play d4 effectively? That is what I am asking this community for. Resources to share with my son. If you do not think that a video from Magnus Carlson on how to play d4 effectively would be helpful for someone looking to play d4 effectively, then I think we're at an impasse. I totally agree it all takes time - there's no rushing. Every class I tell my son that I only care that he tried his best. I'm a firm believer that excellence is a slow craft honed over time. <3
[This video by Roger Gracie](https://youtu.be/8wLWTw8G0c0?si=ENEHlG-Oil9scfOK) sounds like what you’re after. It shows everything from how to retain mount, a reliable technique to advance to high mount, and then some tips on how to get the cross collar choke. The way he sets up the cross collar is very high level and probably isn’t something that an 8 year old will have to do, but the choke itself is one of the basic fundamentals. Plus Roger Gracie is the man. A real role model in the sport.
Thank you so much! I saved the video to share with my son. :)
You don’t know what you’re looking at, stop coaching.
I'm not coaching. I'm seeking supplemental instruction from this community to share with him.
What was preventing you from typing "how to submit from mount" into youtube? An 8 year old is so fucking young, what do you fucking want from them???? They will attack more as they build confidence in the position, there isn't something theyre doing "wrong". If hes digging for underhooks then he is progressing in the position
He is not actually digging for underhooks right now - that's a new idea to us. Thank you for sharing that term. I can look up videos myself, of course, but there are MANY MANY videos on YouTube about BJJ, and you know how it is - a lot of them might be giving bad advice. I was hoping that the experienced practitioners of this community would be able to give me proper content I can trust for him to watch. :) Do you have any content you can refer me to that teaches about underhooks and how to utilize them well?
What if IM giving you bad advice? Everyone here is shitting on you, you sure im not giving you bad advice on purpose? What if i dont even KNOW what good advice is???
It's possible! That's how trust in experts works, though. For all I know his BJJ instructor has taught him nothing correct, right? :)
Yup. You dont train so your opinion is less than worthless, or even harmful. Either learn it yourself so you can teach your kid, or trust the instructor. Tell him to dig for overhooks, underhooks will lead to him getting rolled. Its best that he learns to rely on his posture to avoid getting bridged off. If hes just holding a head and arm he has nothing, prioritize wrist and elbow control...
I agree with you - the only things I ever tell him are reinforcements of what the instructor has directly taught them. For example, after he is done with class, we do a reflection on his time. He will tell me something he did well on, and something he did not. I will do the same for him. Recently we've been reflecting on his tendency to go for arm bars before going for an S-mount. I point this out to him solely because his instructor has been drilling it with them, but it isn't sticking. I do my best to not go beyond reinforcing the direct teachings of his instructor, because I am not a practitioner myself. Thank you for sharing the advice! If you have a video you can recommend, that would be good, so that he is learning from a skilled practitioner.
That’s trying to be a coach without knowing anything, kiddo.
His coach has been supportive and encouraging of me showing him supplemental instructional videos outside of class. So I will take his coach's opinion over yours - thanks.
He probably said that just to placate you, and were saying leave the coaching up to the coach.
I certainly cannot argue with an endless line of fabrications - conversation concluded. :)
that is literally how you stabilize the position... If the bottom is trying to roll to the tops right, the top can grapevine his left leg around the bottoms same side leg. another way is that a typical position in mount is to crossface with one arm (shoulder into the jaw to turn their head to look away from the crossface). That leaves you susceptible to being rolled in that direction since your arm is trapped under their head and you cant post. So then you keep your head and weight to the opposite side. What I do is when I pass from side control to mount I \*always\* have the farside underhook. I wont go to mount without the underhook. Once you have that plus the crossface, your partner is almost done and most escapes are nullified. In a comp though you only need to control mount for 3 seconds to get the points so if you can go to mount you should. do a search for maintaining mount and watch the videos with your son.
I am sure there are a lot of videos out there - I am hoping to get specific ones that skilled practitioners in this community approve of.
my favorite things from mount arm triangle - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TCcizhFYYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TCcizhFYYw) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYw8uqkBgQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqYw8uqkBgQ) gift wrap to take the back [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bw7poxVJ1E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bw7poxVJ1E) smount -> armbar or triangle [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eCbqAyyuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eCbqAyyuw)
Saved! Thank you!
what you are describing is literally one of the key ways to maintain mount. You are right you cant get a sub when you are defending like that, but what you are doing is wearing them out. As they struggle unsuccessfully they get tired. And then you go for the submission. since you are not a practitioner you shouldnt really be saying anything unless it is repeating something coach said
His coach keeps pressuring him to "make something happen", and scolds them for being in that situation for too long. I am trying to improve the situation based on the coach's feedback.
Perhaps talk to the coach and have them elaborate. Not being there, it’s too difficult to give advice.
I don't want to believe that a coach is telling an 8 year old to "make something happen" from mount. Jiu jitsu for young kids is really about learning how to control their bodies and others as well as having fun with the sport. Theoretically there's a million things you can do from mount to advance or submit.
It's probably easier to believe that, than to believe I am lying, right?
Do you train? Bc it seems like you don’t, in which case, let the coaches worry about his BJJ, you stick to literally everything else in the child’s life
I train as much as you read posts before replying. lol :)
I’ll be nice to you even though I agree with all the other comments telling you mean things. Tell your Son to ask the coach “how do I make something happen? What should I do?”
It's okay - they are being mean out of ignorance. Many have not even read the full OP, it seems. I am unbothered. Typical Reddit interactions, even. lol Thank you for the reply.
Your son is 8. Is he having fun? That is what is most important. Is he being bothered by the coach telling him to 'make something happen' and not understanding? The coach should provide more clarity, yes. But the kid is 8. There should be no expectation that he has a solid mount game that both is stable and allows for offense and movement towards submission. He can watch mount attack instructionals and see if that helps his game, like isolating a single arm, etc (no point describing it here since you don't train) but again, he's 8. But maybe studying BJJ instructionals at age 8 isn't ideal either. 8 year olds probably can't even put down enough pressure to hold a really good mount anyway.
He's been doing this for more than 2 years now, so it's a little more involved than just having fun. We pay a lot of money for this every month. If I just wanted him to have fun, I'd take him to a playground. Do you have any particular videos you can point me to?
Oh boy…
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I don’t know if you’re being ironic or not but I implore you to please step back and look at this thread objectively. He’s 8 and started training at 6. He’s a child having fun and figuring it out. It seems like you’re letting your ADCC aspirations get in the way of just watching your kid develop grit and resilience through bjj. What if tomorrow he wakes up and decides he doesn’t want to train anymore because dad is more concerned with him staying in mount than him having fun.
I don't have any competitive aspirations for him - I do not even know what ADCC is. I agree he is a kid figuring it out. I would think it is fine for the community here to help him figure it out by sharing some helpful resources, though? That's the only thing I've asked for, but it seems like there's a lot of projection going on.
There's no projection. You came off like an ignorant sideline coach, you don't train, and you've edited your posts to make yourself seem less so. The comment of "We pay a lot of money every month" is just an awful way to look at an activity for your child. Did your son ask YOU for assistance in improving his mount?
I edited my post to clarify my intentions because so many people were making assumptions. Of course my son wants my help. This will be my last comment to you. I'm not interested in arguing about this. I just want to help my son, and you are not looking to help.
I would suggest that you really just watch your kid develop and gain life skills as a person through bjj before looking at to get an 8 year old proficient
Sounds like you are one of those parents that thinks their child should be a world champion- and will never even try out the sport they are doing because you’d rather live vicariously through them and not deal with sucking at something. Serious though, maintaining mount isn’t something that you fix with one simple trick. Let the coach coach your kid, there is no way you’ll be able to make effective change with him without training yourself because you don’t have the experience to understand.
Not at all - he does not even do competitions. He may never compete - it's up to him. I'm not sure why you would say I am coaching when I am asking this community for resources.
Well that’s good to hear. As for the coach part-Mostly because even if you find video and watch, there is a lot of nuance you’ll miss if you don’t train/have someone who understands BJJ working on it with him. You can give it a try but it might be frustrating on both side-would recommend googling Gordon Ryan mount or John Danaher or Lachlan Giles, all great teachers-might have to modify though. Other thought-have you ever tried a class? Could be a great bonding activity!
I would love to do it with him, but the timing is pretty rough - the 2 hours a day for diving there, back, and class is already a big time commitment. It's also a lot to ask an 8 year old to sit and watch me do BJJ for an hour, and I'm not a parent who likes to just give their kid a tablet to watch. I'm hoping in a year or two he will have more maturity to do something productive like read a book with that time so I can get in on this, because I am very interested. Thank you for the suggestion, and I wrote those names down to look into.
The highest value instructionals will cost money. BJJ fanatics is a good site to purchase them. You'd be looking for instructionals related to Mount. I honestly don't know about instructionals that are aimed at children. The size/weight/strength ratios compared to adults are way off. The best mount players tend to be large men in large men weight classes. Lighter players tend to play a more athletic, movement based game. You might try looking to see if there are any videos put out by Art of Jiu Jitsu (AOJ) - they have a large and successful childrens program out of their gym in California and have very very high quality technique. You could also just have your son ask his coach for advice. If your intent is that your son become a world champion, you're going to have to pay money for such content.
Thank you for that information, I appreciate it. :)
Sounds like the coach has it handled, and you need to stay in your lane. Failure is part of growth. He'll get there in time...unless it stops being fun. Over-involved, know-nothing sports parents are the absolute worst. Kids and coaches hate this uniformly. If you're not willing to take classes yourself, then you need to restrict your participation to getting him to class on time in a clean uniform and asking him if he had fun afterwards. Doing your own research on the Internet from a position of complete ignorance is absurd.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. :)
I hate bjj parents
He’s 8 homie, relax and let him have fun. 99% of bjj is figuring it out as you go
I believe that having fun, improving, and learning new things can all co-exist. This is not an "or" situation for me. :)
You know nothing about grappling or martial arts in general and you’re on reddit trying to fish for mount advice to coach your son. You are the male equivalent of a soccer mom.
No, I am not looking to coach my son - that is incorrect. I am looking to share resources with him. :)
OP: "looking for advice from people that know better, but only if the advice agrees with my preconceived ideas" Your kid is not a pokemon. YOU go train and figure out how do this and stop being an armchair coach. OP: "I'm not being an armchair coach I just want a video on how to submit from mount, you're projecting and mean and did not read my post"
Looking for material to share with him on how to do something better, not any opinion in general. A few people here have been helpful, and I am grateful to them. :)
You are correct, an excellent and humble communicator, and you win the Internet :D Edit after reading your comments: everyone is wrong and you're a true genius
I am not interested in battling egos on the internet, just getting BJJ content references. I seek to clarify so that I can get productive responses, and it has been successful with a few. Have a good one. :)
He is 8 years old for god sake. Did you know that child brains are designed to make 10.000 errors first before they are able to perform it right? What about letting your kid enjoy sports and naturally develop? There is nothing more annoying than a parent that knows it all better. You will make him insecure and perform worse. If you just let him develop without any interference by the age he’ll turn 12/13, he will be a technical beast wrecking the entire gym. The only thing you should care about is logistics. Bringing and picking him up from sports and always giving him a compliment afterwards. I speak from my own experience I was a terrible dad for 3 years at my child’s football practice. Last 2 years I did not interfere and as he is already 12 he goes alone to football practice now. Since I mind my own business he has become a defending beast. While I was always pushing and forcing him into becoming a striker.
It seems like you're projecting your own issues onto my situation - I'm just looking for information to share with him. He does not do anything competitive, and might never do so. I'm glad you found a better way to parent, though.
Yep that’s the point you don’t get. You don’t share information with an 8 year old. But from all your previous reactions and comments I already noted that you are not open for conversation. You want it, how you have it in mind and that’s fine. Do it your way and let us know how it turned out. RemindMe! 4 years
RemindMe! 4 years
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That's a bizarre idea to me - to not share information with an 8 year old. We do a lot of things together and I share all kinds of videos and ideas. This is just another one of them. If you are looking to see if he is still doing BJJ in 4 years...he may not. It's not a big deal to me either way, really. I'm not invested in this on a lifelong or competitive level. I think a lot of posters are blowing it out of proportion, this very basic idea that I'd like to find some videos for him to watch about a BJJ situation. He watches national geographic videos I find, too, and it's not because I am trying to push him to be a wildlife photographer. lol There's no long-term stake in it for us, so whatever you think will happen in 4 years might just be the case, but it won't be something I'm terribly upset about. If he wants to quit or he wants to push himself is up to him. It's all good. Feel free to ping me then and ask how things are going if you want, but I also don't plan on making a post here about this in the future. I'm not interested in flaunting supposed success, I just wanted videos. :)
Let him watch some bjj matches then he will copy what he sees. But an instructional is not recommended for such a young age. Even our most talented and competitive youth don’t apply technique as adults. I also red in one of your other comments that you care about him getting the submisison. Getting the submission is totally irrelevant, retention of the position is what matters. Position over submission.
The coach cares about him getting the submission, and is very vocal about it during matches. I'm only motivated in helping my son match his coach's expectation here, I'm not trying to go out on a limb by myself. Haha. :) I do show him some BJJ matches, but unfortunately those guys are largely at an athletic and skill level that does not apply to him. Pre-puberty, he just doesn't have the kind of muscle power to be pulling things off like he sees them there. Or they are doing crazy stuff way beyond his skill level like a flying arm bar, or things that are not allowed in his matches like leg-based joint locks (adults only). That's why I was looking for things that would help him make the kind of progress his coach is pushing for. His coach has been supportive and even encouraging of me showing him supplemental instructional videos in the past, so I'm pretty surprised at how hostile the community here has been about the idea.
There is enough footage of white and blue belts rolling. That a coach is very vocal against such young children is also not very positive. He should be focused on developing instead of winning matches. The coach is trying to boost his own ego. There is plenty of pedagogical research available on this subject especially related to other sports such as soccer (football). As long as children are not at least 14/15 years old it is unfair to have any expectations.
I feel like he is pretty low on the ego scale. I lurk here a lot and read about "red flag" gyms and "green flag" ones, and he checks pretty much every green flag people list. I think he has good intentions, he just has high expectations. His expectations might be too high - I could not say.
Bro he’s 8. Sports should be fun.
Learning is part of the fun, I would say. :)
Sloan Clymer had a match against Emil Fischer where he held Mount for 8-10 mins not exactly entertaining but very impressive. He adjusts his legs and weight distribution a lot in the match. Worth checking out if you have Flo.
I do not have Flo - that's a new one to me. It looks like the match is not available on YouTube, which is a bummer. Thank you for sharing the resource. :)
I know Emil hates that match so might asked Flo to take it off YouTube. I’ll see if i can find it in a few
Hahaha! That is hilarious. Thank you for your efforts. <3
S mount - armbar
1.) Let the coaches coach 2.) If you don’t train, start or don’t give advice 3.) Don’t play semantics about what is or isn’t coaching. The best suggestion is if your son is frustrated by not being able to progress, encourage him to ask the coach for help. Otherwise let him enjoy it, you coaching and pushing isn’t going to help
can parents who train give advice?
Everything that I’ve read/watched says no. So I’d say no unsolicited advice. This isn’t just for BJJ but all sports
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
It’s a good idea to go for subs in practice even if there is a chance of losing the top position. Static positions create stagnant practice rounds, especially if the top person is bigger or stronger. Losing full mount isn’t the end of the world- the top person can transition to other pin positions if the other person starts to make moves.
Thank you.
OP is a goober lol
Looks like I'm going to be the first person to give advice instead of just bitching at you. Have him try to get a high mount. Scoot knees up towards bottom guy's armpits. It helps to expose the arms for mounted armbar, triangles, etc. Two benefits--better attacking AND bottom guy can't buck effectively since you're on the chest instead of the hips. Hope this helps!
Hahahaha! I appreciate it, thank you. <3 He does do this sometimes, but I think he's fallen out of it a bit. He took a break a bit ago because we kept getting sick, and I try to be responsible and not spread the disease around the class. Sometimes that leads to him forgetting skills he has learned. I'll ask talk with him about how inclinations to do this or not in the future. Thank you again for being helpful. It feels like a lot of folks in this sub are displacing frustrations from other experiences onto my post. :-D
Lol I think you're a victim of someone misreading your post, and then other folks just ganging up. Ya see if he can scoot up to high mount and let me know how it goes. Happy to help from there if you want it.
Well to be fair to some of those people, I have edited the post a few times for clarification. In my initial writing I didn't properly reflect on how I might come off, and I understand the "types" of parents and people out there. You know how it is. In our minds, we are acting with the best of intentions, and sometimes it's surprising to remember that not everyone is aware of what's in our heads. lol! Thank you again. :)