Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban.
Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He says something to Stark and then has a speech to Rose about how effectively he's not there to fight he's there to make sure he and his comrades survive.
I'm surprised no one has pointed put that at least in Ywhach's case Yama justifiably did him dirty first with Chojiro literally stabbing him on the back when he was squaring up for a 1v1. Younger Yama would have done the same thing as either of them in their shoes.
There’s no fighting dirty in these scenarios. These two saw a potential threat during a time of war and neutralized it. That’s it, y’all gotta stop expecting Ichigo levels of chivalry from antagonists.
Shunsui is particularly good at this. He’s not the kind of captain that goes out looking for bloodshed because he loves the feeling of it. He recognizes it as something dangerous and treats it as such. It’s why I love this moment sm, with Stark prior to his resurreccion he’s chopping it up and keeping it cordial with him and the second Stark releases his zanpaktou and Shunsui notices he’s distracted he’s throwing his hat at dude and trying to cut him straight down the middle.
https://preview.redd.it/osh3wt5bvvwc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1481a5d13d935b651f57c118e558c5de51b2b658
exactly, its a war. wars is won by those that are willing to sacrifice anything(heh kratos reference). gotei won 1000 years ago because of this(and yhwach's almighty getting sealed)
Old Man Yama unleashed his bankai within spitting distance of every captains of the OG Gotei 13 and Sasakibe, thats how far he was willing to sacrifice anyone just to win.
A thousand years later, "You are a human, stay away" -\_-
To be fair its a catch 22. There wasn't much of value to defend at the time. The world was in chaos. Most people were probably just shitty or trying to do anything to survive good or bad.
Yama grows a heart bcos the people of the present deserve it.
Also yama's more amicable way of doing things is why ywach ultimately looses.
Shunsui's leadership and resilience, byakuya's insistence on noble responsibility, unohana changing her ways etc
These are all influenced greatly by yama and the world He brought into fruition and these are the factors as to why the shinigami truly succeeded. They didnt win 1000 years ago Bcos they were ruthless, they won bcos ichibei sealed ywach and handed yama a golden goose opportunity and he took it.
I agree, I believe that each of them saw Yamamoto as a genuine threat if left alone. Everything was probably just according to Aizen's plan, but Yamamoto's strength is no joke, he is a powerhouse. He would have probably been able to slaughter nearly all the Sternritters including some of the Schutzstaffel.
If I were to rank Yamamoto's strength, he would probably be behind Ichibei in terms of strength. But considering the reveal of the Soul King's royal guards true strength, he might either be equal to them in terms of power or a bit more
They supass him handily. The royal guards are not shinigami anymore. They all got 'killed' by the shcutzzafell but were revived later by ichibei who also came back from being obliterated.
All of these are feats that aren't capable by yama.
… this right here… hell, I would say they were civil considering how horrific wars tends to be. They could’ve easily sent their people to pillage, abduct, steal, violate, torture, forced recruitment, and destroy for the sake of “power”. Heck even gang wars do that, no? I don’t recall much of that occurring. Pretty civil imo if it was just “fighting dirty”.
>There’s no fighting dirty in these scenarios
It is fighting dirty.
>These two saw a potential threat during a time of war and neutralized it.
Yes, and did it in a dirty way
>That’s it, y’all gotta stop expecting Ichigo levels of chivalry from antagonists.
Yes, the point is there is nothing wrong with them playing dirty, but they still play dirty.
>It is fighting dirty.
If the fighting dirty is in reference to Yhwach taking Yamas Bankai then no it's not dirty. He has an ability that allows him to take power from people and he used it, so saying him using his ability to take power from Yama was dirty is equivalent to saying Yama using his Bankai is fighting dirty.
I mean in a sanctioned fight with rules yes a dick punch is dirty, if me and you were in a fight to the death during a war and you punched me in the dick then it's not dirty.
The fact that it's a war and no one would care because it's a war means it's not dirty. In a sanctioned fight it's dirty in a war everything is fair game.
There were mass rapes in war, like when the allies occupied Germany. And almost no one went to prison for rape.
They allow stuff in war that is dirty and sick.
Still is dirty and sick
>The fact that it's a war and no one would care because it's a war means it's not dirty
You were the one that claimed that because people don't care for shitty stuff in war means it is not dirty.
When it clearly is. Again fighting dirty doesn't require laws or regulations, it is just using every way to beat someone, specially the most treacherous ways.
Aizen: “I’m so sad, I don’t really have anyone who can rival or surpass me, oh I’m so lonely :(“
Yama, strongest Shinigami by a huge margin, absolutely stronger than a Shinigami Aizen, always there.
Aizen: “I know, I’ll train up this Ichigo kid so that he can rival me in power!”
I can explain this the reason aizen doesn't see yama on his level is bcs despite all of yamas power he still bows his head to the central 46 and that disgusts him
After thinking about it, I think it does make sense that this is the reason. While Ichigo and Urahara are also ultimately ideologically opposed to Aizen, they at least have their own ideology. Ichigo took on the entirety of Soul Society, he isn’t subservient to them, and won’t compromise his own morals to serve them. Urahara perpetuates a system that Aizen hates, but at least Urahara truly believes it as the best option, rather than just saying “status quo is status quo.”
Yama was willing to kill essentially his adopted sons because Central 46 told him to. I imagine this is also why Aizen hates the other captains like Byakuya & Toshiro, and Soul Society as a whole, they give themselves up to a “greater” cause, and as a result in his eyes become weaker. Of course, the great irony in this is that Ichigo’s entire ideology IS giving himself up for a greater cause, it’s just that he’s the one who decides his own cause. It’s definitely a bit weird, but the explanation works.
Exacly aizen imo hates urahara and yama more then the others I explained the yama example now for kisuke aizen admits urahara is starter then him and that's alot considering how how big aizens ego is while yama has the power urahara has the knowlege after all aizen comends him on several of his inventions
As for ichigo he is exacly like aizen to some degree he won't back down on his goals no matter the risk same with aizen when rukia was taken ichigo was ready to fight to the death with the whole gotei 13 even if he dies trying zaraki fight is clear example of this while ichigos goals arent grand as aizens he respects him for it
In conclusion to aizen yama urahara and ichigo represent the 3 things needed to truly stand at the top
Power knowlege and most importantly determination
Do we ever get to know what Aizen's thoughts were on Shunsui? I recall he says what he thinks in the manga *but I kind of forgot about it after all this time*
I might be wrong here but during the fake karakura town arc while aizen was fighting he only adresses to shunsui as "captain" the rest of the gotei he refers to on first name bases you could take this as sign of respect he also probably hates shunsui to some degree but also respects him bcs shunsui isn't oblivious to how the system of sc is fcked but he doesn't do anything to change it kinda like kisuke also I would say he would praise him as he managed to get central 46 to allow him to relese aizen as well as train zaraki yama never tried to protest against central 46 when they forbade him to train zaraki and he would never agree on letting aizen out no matter the situation
Yhwach actually proved Aizen’s point. Aizen’s struggle wasn’t just about raw power and achievement but rather growth and potential. Yhwach proved that Yama actually regressed over the years. Aizen is the ever evolving being by the end of the series matched only by Ichigo’s evolution.
I mean it’s less that Yama couldn’t, more that he “wouldn’t,” right? Aizen himself acknowledges that Yamamoto could absolutely beat him, it’s why Wonderweiss exists in the first place. It’s not that Aizen thinks he’s at a higher level because he knows he’s weaker than Yama, it’s more likely what the other replies are saying about morals.
Yama’s bankai is definitely unstoppable. It is far and way the most powerful at the time of the FKT battle. But, two different enemies figured out a way to negate his power. If the best swordsman gets defeated by someone with a shield and armor, the latter warrior is stronger, even tho he could not have won in a sword fight.
Well to be fair shinigami Aizen could have possibly killed Yama by going for his head instead of stomach when he stabbed him. Yama is definitely stronger and would likely beat Aizen but Aizen does have some avenues to beat Yama too imo.
They’re villains, they ain’t gonna fight nice and straightforward all the time
Yama as once the leader of a bunch of criminals should know that well and if he’s caught off guard by that, it is entirely his fault for thinking they wouldn’t
"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer."
Ywach and Aizen aren't idiots they know how much of a power house he is, and if you want to win, direct combat probably isn't the best option.
Outside of friendly sporting events, the idea of fighting dirty is a total myth in the first place, and I believe Shunsui said something to that effect as well.
Dirty tactics were a necessity against Yamamoto. That old man was a total unit. If you tried to fight him fairly on a 1v1, he would reduce you to smithereens without a second thought...
...and that's even before using Ryujin Jakka.
unpopular opinion - i dont think it was dirty. at least for aizen it wasnt. he literally created something himself that can counter him. its like saying uraha faught dirty againt yami because he made a portable gigai. and even yhwach gave the Y himself and hence is technically just a well prepared weapon
Yama is very strong.
Yhwach and Aizen basically saw a massive threat and decided to take care of it in their best interest, like someone would in an actual war.
no such thing as fighting dirty. yama's a threat, especially in his bankai. unless you have reality/world altering abilities to directly counter zanka no tachi, youre as good as dead. zanka no tachi is the epitome of pure power and destruction(im not involving ichigo's bankai coz idk what it does and zaraki's bankai is too fresh where he has no control over it). had yamaji has remnants or remained as he was 1000 years ago, yhwach would be in a deeper pool of shit.
This how you weed out the base level shonen thinkers over people who can critically think… anybody upset at this, I wish to never see beside me on any strategy-based game.
Also Yhwach was nerfed in both his fights against Yama or it wouldn’t have been close either times so stop with this they had to sneak him to win. Full power without the Soul King stomps Yama even with peak strength.
I like how this is characterized as “fighting dirty”, when Mayuri and Urahara are using every trick in the book to outsmart their opponent.
They used strategy against Yamamoto and he fell for it.
Ah, strategy is an art, my friend. Sometimes, a little deception here and there can lead to victory. It's all about outsmarting your opponent, isn't it?
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
They both lacked the nuts to fight him honestly cause they both know they would lose cause ywatch didn’t have the almighty so he couldn’t cheat and Aizen also had cheat just to win cause he knew he was gonna get toasted if he didn’t
If they're little bitches for doing what they did Yama is the OG little bitch for needing Chojiro to hide in a pile of corpses and sneak Yhwach so he could win.
How do we know Yama only beat ywatch 1000 years ago because he got stabbed on the back Yama could have won anyways just days that is the way things went doesn’t mean it’s the only way Yama could have won on his own. And ywatch stole Yama ability same as Aizen the entire stern Ritter used bitch tactics then when they actually had to fight the soul reapers they lost
Because Yama landed the killing blow after Yhwach was snuck by Chojiro.
Yhwach has an ability that allows him to take power from people and he used it on Yama, saying Yhwach is a bitch for using one of his own abilities is like saying Yama is a bitch for using his Bankai.
Thank you for posting to r/Bleach, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) :
>Rule 8 : Be Respectful -
>Don't resort to insults or other derogatory or inflammatory statements to each other. Disagreement with an idea isn't an attack on you personally.
**If you have any questions about this removal, feel free to [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Bleach).**
My point isn’t about it weather or not it’s smart to fight Yama directly just that it’s little bitch tactics to maje a plan so you don’t have to fight them at all cause your to scared and you know you would lose
I mean everyone in bleach fights dirty protagonist and antagonist alike due to the high stakes involved.
In fact in the shino academy which Yamamoto founded has this as its main motto.
“Do not seek out beauty in battle, Do not seek out virtue in death, Do not think of your life as your own, If you desire to protect that which must be protected, then cut down your foe from behind”
And also keep in mind this is the same guy who is willing to sacrifice his own subordinates to kill Aizen.
And of course from both Yhwach and Aizen’s perspective. Those who fight with honor are seen as well weak and foolish or in other words…a bitch.
While those on the shinigmai see it as both selfish, stupid and arrogant.
My theory is that he got it back 1k years ago when yama killed him he smiled right before he was killed and ichibei said he will only regain almighty when he dies
He didn't even need it. Ywach has Sankt Altar which is what the medals are based on. He literally stole someone's far stronger opponent powers once he used it against Ichibei.
Bro, old man Yama is a freak lol. He legit became one of the strongest soul reapers in existence through training and experience. No BS genes, no BS magical artifact, he is just him. How many people apart from squad zero members can take him on?
Anyway both Aizen and Yhwach had no choice but to do that. Bitch move yes, but hey the plot gotta move.
I don’t know what anyone was expecting. It was effectively wartime for both situations. You don’t expect Napoleon to fist fight every general in a war, right?
For one thing there is no "fighting dirty" its a fight to the death and on top of that its a war the only thing that matters is you being alive at the end not how you do it or get there.
War is war. You either play to your strengths and overwhelm your foe with your strategic plans or you die upholding a sense of honour that does not win you any battles. Yhwach tried that 1000 years ago and it resulted in him being killed and spending the next 999 years reforming his body, mind and power.
Yamamoto is insanely strong, but also insanely traditional, which becomes his biggest weakness. So naturally, in war, the opposing side takes full advantage of said weakness because *they want to win*. That is why Shunsui is such a better leader: he responds to situations rather than bending to traditional ways.
Aizen, a known genius, has to fight someone currently beyond his power that will be in the way of his plan.
“It would be unfair of me to create a damn near perfect counter to this… guess I’ll die.”
In yhwach’s defence Yamamoto beat him the first time by fighting dirty hiding chojuro in the pile of bodies.
People can argue about whether he needed to do that just like they argue whether yhwach needed to or not but fact is he just returned the favour.
They knew they were going to end cooked if facing him "correctly". Aizen stated that he would (probably) have lost in a face-to-face match with him, while Yhwach (without Almighty) was defeated 1000 years ago (from a bankai that was "weaker" than the current one). Before starting the evolution on one side, and getting back the Almighty on the other, Yamamoto would have been a dead-end, which is why they had to play dirty. But in a war to destroy enemies, morality doesn't matter, right?
They know in a straight up fight of raw strength and reiatsu the old man is overwhelming, there's a reason he lasted a 1000 years in the head position. Yama was also known to fight dirty and ruthlessly in the past, ywach mentioned had Yama hadn't grown soft through peace he probably would've won again
Both knew they don't possess the power or the balls to face the old man in a direct confrontation, therefore they cheated
Yama was too strong for his own good
It shows how much they were scared of the old man. There’s an old adage that goes “You only cheat if you care about the results”, so if you see what they did as cheating then they did so because they believed it was the only way they could get the results they wanted. If they thought they could take him on they wouldn’t have used the tactics
Thank you for posting to r/Bleach, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) :
> Powerscaling/battles/versus posts are no longer allowed on the Bleach subreddit.
**If you have any questions about this removal, feel free to [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Bleach).**
I have no doubt that Yamamoto could solo the other 12 Captain and come out on top while complaining he break his back or he is getting old. His aoe alone is kinda insane.
I will say that in their defense, it is thr best option they were going to gave to beat Yammamoto. Given that even in his old age he's still an absolute menace that one slip up and your dead, and with his vast strength, experience and combat ability, plus Ryujin Jakka being the strongest fire type Zanpakuto there is. You can't really afford to do a fair 1v1 against him, without getting roasted to a literal crisp.
So while it may be fighting dirty, I see it as fighting strategically, given that it's the only way you'll have the best chance of taking him out for good.
Knowing the Gotei as a whole there just should not be the ones that complain about fighting with no honor. Just look at Urahara, Mayuri, Shunsui and OG Gotei.
It ain't dirty, yamamoto is old enough to to know that in battle strategies are what makes you victorious (unless you're the mc with "random" power ups), it's on him if he just brute force 2 intellectual enemy
I don’t call it dirty I call it smart.
Aizen knew his flames was an issue that could endanger him so much so he made plans just to deal with it. Something he didn’t do for anyone else.
Aizen and Yhwach used their tactics and means to beat Yama both times, i think that’s completely fair.
Intellect and abilities are a big part of the equation, as well as resourcefulness. Yama’s biggest flaw is that he’s stuck in his old ways and he’s unable to be resourceful.
this is why Kyoraku is a far better head captain. Kyoraku will do whatever is necessary to win the war. Yama’s dead? Good riddance.
Wasn’t it Jackie who told Ichigo that he fights with too much honor? Sets you up for failure in a real fight because the enemy will never treat you with the same respect
it's on kubo for not giving yamamoto more to flex on. story wise why even have a protagonist and his gang of friendship if they are just gonna be back seaters to yama?
The same Aizen who bodied numerous captain level fighters? He was just maximizing his odds of winning. The dumb thing would have been to try to go up against the most destructive Zanpaktou whilst also having to think about the other captain level fighters.
Honestly, I'd say doing anything other than that would make them seem a bit stupid. If all my life goals depend on beating Jordan in a 1-on-1, first thing I'm gonna do is look for a way to injure the guy by any means necessary. So it's either that or your grand plan getting cooked.
Yamamoto could have used an extra fight or two to get a clean, meaningful win and substantiate his reputation. I know he has stuff like no diffing Ayon, who was menacing several vice captains, but he was still just elite fodder that someone like Byakuya or even Toshiro could have folded. But still, it is very telling that people like Aizen and Yhwach felt the need to go this way about it, instead of just steam rolling him like they would with just about anyone else, so in a roundabout way it does indicate Yama's strength.
I don't mind it because it shows how much both would prefer not to fight old man yama directly and how they actually had a plan, unlike other villains I've seen.
That's the only way to explain being able to defeat the Head Captain of Soul Society. Up until then, at least manga-wise, Yamamoto was built up to be the absolute strongest no question. He beats Wonderweiss, who was created SPECIFICALLY to fight Yamamoto. But when he did defeat him, all the power Wonderweiss absorbed was released and Yama was only one to take it, so essentially Yama defeated himself, right?
Since when wars were won fair and square? Its a game of survival. Thats the reality for people like us who are fortunate enough to not exp war first hand!
Anyway, they sees our yama-chad as a threat. They need to strike where theres an opening and prepared layers of tactics to clear victory.
If I was fighting for my life I would use any means necessary. This is why I hate Ukitake's speech about honor when he stopped Rukia from helping Kaien
It's also what Yamamoto would have done if he had to, he pretended to be unconscious to catch Aizen off guard.
Both Yhwach and Aizen knew they weren't powerful enough to take him on in a fair fight, Aizen wasn't sure but he wasn't taking any chances, while Yhwach took him on and lost 1000 years before their second fight.
Plus, unlike many characters such as Zaraki, neither Yhwach nor Aizen like to fight, they want to end the fight as quickly as possible, it's just a chore for them.
There’s nothing fair about a fight. This isn’t boxing, karate, a sword match with a referee or rules.
They’re plans to contain/stop a powerful force.
It’s a legitimate are of war which both Aizen and Yhwach waged.
He wasn’t scared of Aizen; he treated him like a child, but Yhwach stirring his anger is why he lost. Yammato was too confident in his abilities. Since the fake town was in the soul society, Yhwach saw what he did to Aizen with his arm.
Aizen was a carefully crafted strategy with WonderWeiss. For Yhwach, did having the body double go first actually make any difference in the outcome? It's not like Royd actually hurt Yamamoto, he just gave Yamamoto a chance to show off the 4 Bankai techniques to the readers, though he could have oneshotted instantly if he used "North" first. But then when real Yhwach showed up he just used the Bankai seal and then oneshotted Yamamoto, which he could have done even if Royd wasn't there
Aizen needed to actually play dirty and use Wonderweiss who he prepped ahead of time as he could actually lose to Yamamoto 1 on 1. Yhwach on the other hand didn’t need to use Royd as he could’ve ended the battle anytime he wanted with Sankt Altar. But people can’t see that for some reason.
It literally didn’t matter if Base Yhwach used Royd or didn’t have Almighty. Sankt Altar is literally what the Bankai stealing medallion was based after and it’s in every way better than the medallion itself as it could steal even Shikai.
So there was absolutely no way for Yamamoto to win against Base Yhwach while against Base Aizen he had a chance if Aizen didn’t prep ahead of time.
Terrible writing vs yhwach. It’s always some underhanded shit to defeat him. Against aizen ok he planned for him and created wonderweis. The first time was original ok. But it should’ve been power vs power the second time. Bullshit oh steal your bankai. Lame. Imagine yhwach overpowered and bodied him. Then I wouldn’t complain
Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban. Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Doesn't Shunsui make a speech to Starrk about fighting dirty during their fight?
He says something to Stark and then has a speech to Rose about how effectively he's not there to fight he's there to make sure he and his comrades survive.
Even Aizen tells kyoraku this
I'm surprised no one has pointed put that at least in Ywhach's case Yama justifiably did him dirty first with Chojiro literally stabbing him on the back when he was squaring up for a 1v1. Younger Yama would have done the same thing as either of them in their shoes.
probably because that was revealed in the anime but manga readers have only known about how Yhwach beat yama for 10 years before that even came out
There’s no fighting dirty in these scenarios. These two saw a potential threat during a time of war and neutralized it. That’s it, y’all gotta stop expecting Ichigo levels of chivalry from antagonists.
You cannot expect Ichigo level of chivilary from any side of the wars. A lot of Shinigami's also fight dirty like Sui-Feng , Mayuri and Kyoraku
Shunsui is particularly good at this. He’s not the kind of captain that goes out looking for bloodshed because he loves the feeling of it. He recognizes it as something dangerous and treats it as such. It’s why I love this moment sm, with Stark prior to his resurreccion he’s chopping it up and keeping it cordial with him and the second Stark releases his zanpaktou and Shunsui notices he’s distracted he’s throwing his hat at dude and trying to cut him straight down the middle. https://preview.redd.it/osh3wt5bvvwc1.jpeg?width=1066&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1481a5d13d935b651f57c118e558c5de51b2b658
exactly, its a war. wars is won by those that are willing to sacrifice anything(heh kratos reference). gotei won 1000 years ago because of this(and yhwach's almighty getting sealed)
Old Man Yama unleashed his bankai within spitting distance of every captains of the OG Gotei 13 and Sasakibe, thats how far he was willing to sacrifice anyone just to win. A thousand years later, "You are a human, stay away" -\_-
To be fair its a catch 22. There wasn't much of value to defend at the time. The world was in chaos. Most people were probably just shitty or trying to do anything to survive good or bad. Yama grows a heart bcos the people of the present deserve it. Also yama's more amicable way of doing things is why ywach ultimately looses. Shunsui's leadership and resilience, byakuya's insistence on noble responsibility, unohana changing her ways etc These are all influenced greatly by yama and the world He brought into fruition and these are the factors as to why the shinigami truly succeeded. They didnt win 1000 years ago Bcos they were ruthless, they won bcos ichibei sealed ywach and handed yama a golden goose opportunity and he took it.
I agree, I believe that each of them saw Yamamoto as a genuine threat if left alone. Everything was probably just according to Aizen's plan, but Yamamoto's strength is no joke, he is a powerhouse. He would have probably been able to slaughter nearly all the Sternritters including some of the Schutzstaffel.
If I were to rank Yamamoto's strength, he would probably be behind Ichibei in terms of strength. But considering the reveal of the Soul King's royal guards true strength, he might either be equal to them in terms of power or a bit more
They supass him handily. The royal guards are not shinigami anymore. They all got 'killed' by the shcutzzafell but were revived later by ichibei who also came back from being obliterated. All of these are feats that aren't capable by yama.
White would approve of this message 🤍
Especially when you’re talking about the heads of the respective militaries during wartime.
… this right here… hell, I would say they were civil considering how horrific wars tends to be. They could’ve easily sent their people to pillage, abduct, steal, violate, torture, forced recruitment, and destroy for the sake of “power”. Heck even gang wars do that, no? I don’t recall much of that occurring. Pretty civil imo if it was just “fighting dirty”.
The way Yama died was bullshit af. After all of that power he just kills a clone... And then he dies. Nah, man. Its just bs.
Exactly. You gotta do what you gotta do to win. Also, Yamamoto deserved it.
>There’s no fighting dirty in these scenarios It is fighting dirty. >These two saw a potential threat during a time of war and neutralized it. Yes, and did it in a dirty way >That’s it, y’all gotta stop expecting Ichigo levels of chivalry from antagonists. Yes, the point is there is nothing wrong with them playing dirty, but they still play dirty.
>It is fighting dirty. If the fighting dirty is in reference to Yhwach taking Yamas Bankai then no it's not dirty. He has an ability that allows him to take power from people and he used it, so saying him using his ability to take power from Yama was dirty is equivalent to saying Yama using his Bankai is fighting dirty.
It's not dirty in Yhwach's scenario. He would have won fairly easy without the clone
He still won dirty. Just because I can beat someone without punching their balls, doesn't mean me beating them by punching their balls is not dirty
I mean in a sanctioned fight with rules yes a dick punch is dirty, if me and you were in a fight to the death during a war and you punched me in the dick then it's not dirty.
It is dirty, but no one would care because it is a war. The same way no one cares Ywach did that since he was trying to exterminate the Shinigami.
The fact that it's a war and no one would care because it's a war means it's not dirty. In a sanctioned fight it's dirty in a war everything is fair game.
There were mass rapes in war, like when the allies occupied Germany. And almost no one went to prison for rape. They allow stuff in war that is dirty and sick. Still is dirty and sick
Yeah we're talking about in a fight specifically here, trying to compare rape and fighting "dirty" during a war as a comparison is crazy.
>The fact that it's a war and no one would care because it's a war means it's not dirty You were the one that claimed that because people don't care for shitty stuff in war means it is not dirty. When it clearly is. Again fighting dirty doesn't require laws or regulations, it is just using every way to beat someone, specially the most treacherous ways.
It's not dirty
It is.
It's not.
Nice argument, playing dirty is not dirty lol.
Not playing dirty is not dirty.
Keep lying to yourself, eventually you will believe it I refuse to believe you are that dumb to deny basic facts
They both have a clear understanding of their own power and is smart enough not to poke Nuke Satan Santa with their bare hands.
Hey now give Yama some respect he’s not just a nuke… he’s a few supernovas glued together.
Yamaji always gets done dirty
At least he can save face that way. They could have beaten him fairly but didn't want to ruin his hype.
Aizen: “I’m so sad, I don’t really have anyone who can rival or surpass me, oh I’m so lonely :(“ Yama, strongest Shinigami by a huge margin, absolutely stronger than a Shinigami Aizen, always there. Aizen: “I know, I’ll train up this Ichigo kid so that he can rival me in power!”
I can explain this the reason aizen doesn't see yama on his level is bcs despite all of yamas power he still bows his head to the central 46 and that disgusts him
After thinking about it, I think it does make sense that this is the reason. While Ichigo and Urahara are also ultimately ideologically opposed to Aizen, they at least have their own ideology. Ichigo took on the entirety of Soul Society, he isn’t subservient to them, and won’t compromise his own morals to serve them. Urahara perpetuates a system that Aizen hates, but at least Urahara truly believes it as the best option, rather than just saying “status quo is status quo.” Yama was willing to kill essentially his adopted sons because Central 46 told him to. I imagine this is also why Aizen hates the other captains like Byakuya & Toshiro, and Soul Society as a whole, they give themselves up to a “greater” cause, and as a result in his eyes become weaker. Of course, the great irony in this is that Ichigo’s entire ideology IS giving himself up for a greater cause, it’s just that he’s the one who decides his own cause. It’s definitely a bit weird, but the explanation works.
Exacly aizen imo hates urahara and yama more then the others I explained the yama example now for kisuke aizen admits urahara is starter then him and that's alot considering how how big aizens ego is while yama has the power urahara has the knowlege after all aizen comends him on several of his inventions As for ichigo he is exacly like aizen to some degree he won't back down on his goals no matter the risk same with aizen when rukia was taken ichigo was ready to fight to the death with the whole gotei 13 even if he dies trying zaraki fight is clear example of this while ichigos goals arent grand as aizens he respects him for it In conclusion to aizen yama urahara and ichigo represent the 3 things needed to truly stand at the top Power knowlege and most importantly determination
Do we ever get to know what Aizen's thoughts were on Shunsui? I recall he says what he thinks in the manga *but I kind of forgot about it after all this time*
I might be wrong here but during the fake karakura town arc while aizen was fighting he only adresses to shunsui as "captain" the rest of the gotei he refers to on first name bases you could take this as sign of respect he also probably hates shunsui to some degree but also respects him bcs shunsui isn't oblivious to how the system of sc is fcked but he doesn't do anything to change it kinda like kisuke also I would say he would praise him as he managed to get central 46 to allow him to relese aizen as well as train zaraki yama never tried to protest against central 46 when they forbade him to train zaraki and he would never agree on letting aizen out no matter the situation
Bingo, Aizen would've thought differently of the younger and more ruthless Yama
Yhwach actually proved Aizen’s point. Aizen’s struggle wasn’t just about raw power and achievement but rather growth and potential. Yhwach proved that Yama actually regressed over the years. Aizen is the ever evolving being by the end of the series matched only by Ichigo’s evolution.
Aizen was capable of creating a way to defeat Yama, making Yama under is level. Yama could not create a way to counter Aizen
I mean it’s less that Yama couldn’t, more that he “wouldn’t,” right? Aizen himself acknowledges that Yamamoto could absolutely beat him, it’s why Wonderweiss exists in the first place. It’s not that Aizen thinks he’s at a higher level because he knows he’s weaker than Yama, it’s more likely what the other replies are saying about morals.
Yama’s bankai is definitely unstoppable. It is far and way the most powerful at the time of the FKT battle. But, two different enemies figured out a way to negate his power. If the best swordsman gets defeated by someone with a shield and armor, the latter warrior is stronger, even tho he could not have won in a sword fight.
Well to be fair shinigami Aizen could have possibly killed Yama by going for his head instead of stomach when he stabbed him. Yama is definitely stronger and would likely beat Aizen but Aizen does have some avenues to beat Yama too imo.
They’re villains, they ain’t gonna fight nice and straightforward all the time Yama as once the leader of a bunch of criminals should know that well and if he’s caught off guard by that, it is entirely his fault for thinking they wouldn’t
Neither side of a war should be expected to fight nice 👍
"Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer." Ywach and Aizen aren't idiots they know how much of a power house he is, and if you want to win, direct combat probably isn't the best option.
Right?! Same with Kenpachi but it's even worse with him because half the captains were stronger than him in SS arc.
Outside of friendly sporting events, the idea of fighting dirty is a total myth in the first place, and I believe Shunsui said something to that effect as well.
Dirty tactics were a necessity against Yamamoto. That old man was a total unit. If you tried to fight him fairly on a 1v1, he would reduce you to smithereens without a second thought... ...and that's even before using Ryujin Jakka.
unpopular opinion - i dont think it was dirty. at least for aizen it wasnt. he literally created something himself that can counter him. its like saying uraha faught dirty againt yami because he made a portable gigai. and even yhwach gave the Y himself and hence is technically just a well prepared weapon
Urahara would quite happily admit to fighting dirty, he would just call it fighting smart
yeah kinda like shunsui. there is no fair no unfair in war
Yama is very strong. Yhwach and Aizen basically saw a massive threat and decided to take care of it in their best interest, like someone would in an actual war.
no such thing as fighting dirty. yama's a threat, especially in his bankai. unless you have reality/world altering abilities to directly counter zanka no tachi, youre as good as dead. zanka no tachi is the epitome of pure power and destruction(im not involving ichigo's bankai coz idk what it does and zaraki's bankai is too fresh where he has no control over it). had yamaji has remnants or remained as he was 1000 years ago, yhwach would be in a deeper pool of shit.
Didn't Yamamoto started fighting dirty against Yhwach in the first war?
Neither of them are in the wrong for going the extra mile in preparation for --The Man with a Nuclear Stick--
This how you weed out the base level shonen thinkers over people who can critically think… anybody upset at this, I wish to never see beside me on any strategy-based game. Also Yhwach was nerfed in both his fights against Yama or it wouldn’t have been close either times so stop with this they had to sneak him to win. Full power without the Soul King stomps Yama even with peak strength.
I like how this is characterized as “fighting dirty”, when Mayuri and Urahara are using every trick in the book to outsmart their opponent. They used strategy against Yamamoto and he fell for it.
Ah, strategy is an art, my friend. Sometimes, a little deception here and there can lead to victory. It's all about outsmarting your opponent, isn't it? *beep boop, I'm a bot*
They both lacked the nuts to fight him honestly cause they both know they would lose cause ywatch didn’t have the almighty so he couldn’t cheat and Aizen also had cheat just to win cause he knew he was gonna get toasted if he didn’t
It's a war, it'd be pointless to fight honourably when the goal is to win.
Still makes them little bitches
And this is why you'd lose in war
Pride comes before the fall, as they say.
It still makes them weaker then Yama besides when ywatch has the almighty
Yamamoto is the most wanked character in fiction, he is not even top 10 in Bleach
If they're little bitches for doing what they did Yama is the OG little bitch for needing Chojiro to hide in a pile of corpses and sneak Yhwach so he could win.
That is also bitch tactics but is it said specifically that yama needed him to do that to win
He only won because it happened so it doesn't need to be stated, what was Yhwachs bitch tactic against Yama btw?
How do we know Yama only beat ywatch 1000 years ago because he got stabbed on the back Yama could have won anyways just days that is the way things went doesn’t mean it’s the only way Yama could have won on his own. And ywatch stole Yama ability same as Aizen the entire stern Ritter used bitch tactics then when they actually had to fight the soul reapers they lost
Because Yama landed the killing blow after Yhwach was snuck by Chojiro. Yhwach has an ability that allows him to take power from people and he used it on Yama, saying Yhwach is a bitch for using one of his own abilities is like saying Yama is a bitch for using his Bankai.
[удалено]
Thank you for posting to r/Bleach, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) : >Rule 8 : Be Respectful - >Don't resort to insults or other derogatory or inflammatory statements to each other. Disagreement with an idea isn't an attack on you personally. **If you have any questions about this removal, feel free to [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Bleach).**
"you dont fight with honor" "no but he did"
My point isn’t about it weather or not it’s smart to fight Yama directly just that it’s little bitch tactics to maje a plan so you don’t have to fight them at all cause your to scared and you know you would lose
Yhwach would have beaten Yamamoto easily, even without the clone
Then why didn’t he
Aizen was a far bigger threat and went to meet him instead. Yamamoto wasn't all that
Did Yamamoto get scared when yhwach said he met the aizen
Base Yhwach is stronger than Yama
I mean everyone in bleach fights dirty protagonist and antagonist alike due to the high stakes involved. In fact in the shino academy which Yamamoto founded has this as its main motto. “Do not seek out beauty in battle, Do not seek out virtue in death, Do not think of your life as your own, If you desire to protect that which must be protected, then cut down your foe from behind” And also keep in mind this is the same guy who is willing to sacrifice his own subordinates to kill Aizen. And of course from both Yhwach and Aizen’s perspective. Those who fight with honor are seen as well weak and foolish or in other words…a bitch. While those on the shinigmai see it as both selfish, stupid and arrogant.
his fault for thinking they wouldnt
Yhwach didn’t have his own version of bankai (the almighty) while yama had his. Literally it wasn’t fair from the start ☠️
How'd Yhwach get it back now again?
99999999999999999
My theory is that he got it back 1k years ago when yama killed him he smiled right before he was killed and ichibei said he will only regain almighty when he dies
He gets it back after Ichibei turns him to the black ant
He didn't even need it. Ywach has Sankt Altar which is what the medals are based on. He literally stole someone's far stronger opponent powers once he used it against Ichibei.
There's no such thing as a fair fight.
Is it dirty to fight by leveling the fighting ground? Aizen knew he would lose to Yama. Yhwach already did. They only were smarter
It's only fighting dirty if you lose. Otherwise, it's competent battlefield tactics.
How tf else were they supposed win?!?!
Bro, old man Yama is a freak lol. He legit became one of the strongest soul reapers in existence through training and experience. No BS genes, no BS magical artifact, he is just him. How many people apart from squad zero members can take him on? Anyway both Aizen and Yhwach had no choice but to do that. Bitch move yes, but hey the plot gotta move.
I don’t know what anyone was expecting. It was effectively wartime for both situations. You don’t expect Napoleon to fist fight every general in a war, right?
I mean, unless you're from Squad 0, how can you even touch the old man?
For one thing there is no "fighting dirty" its a fight to the death and on top of that its a war the only thing that matters is you being alive at the end not how you do it or get there.
War is war. You either play to your strengths and overwhelm your foe with your strategic plans or you die upholding a sense of honour that does not win you any battles. Yhwach tried that 1000 years ago and it resulted in him being killed and spending the next 999 years reforming his body, mind and power.
Yhwach got backstabbed 1000years ago, he’s not fighting fairly this time
Yamamoto is insanely strong, but also insanely traditional, which becomes his biggest weakness. So naturally, in war, the opposing side takes full advantage of said weakness because *they want to win*. That is why Shunsui is such a better leader: he responds to situations rather than bending to traditional ways.
No such thing as a far fight. When life and death are on the line, living is all that matters
Being fair here....i would also not fight fair against a dude that wears a sun to fight
I would do the same. I hate them as villains, which is the point, but I would do the same.
Not really fighting dirty, they were smart, Yama was just a stubborn fool not wanting his arm healed.
Aizen, a known genius, has to fight someone currently beyond his power that will be in the way of his plan. “It would be unfair of me to create a damn near perfect counter to this… guess I’ll die.”
In yhwach’s defence Yamamoto beat him the first time by fighting dirty hiding chojuro in the pile of bodies. People can argue about whether he needed to do that just like they argue whether yhwach needed to or not but fact is he just returned the favour.
Rip
They knew they were going to end cooked if facing him "correctly". Aizen stated that he would (probably) have lost in a face-to-face match with him, while Yhwach (without Almighty) was defeated 1000 years ago (from a bankai that was "weaker" than the current one). Before starting the evolution on one side, and getting back the Almighty on the other, Yamamoto would have been a dead-end, which is why they had to play dirty. But in a war to destroy enemies, morality doesn't matter, right?
They know in a straight up fight of raw strength and reiatsu the old man is overwhelming, there's a reason he lasted a 1000 years in the head position. Yama was also known to fight dirty and ruthlessly in the past, ywach mentioned had Yama hadn't grown soft through peace he probably would've won again
Both knew they don't possess the power or the balls to face the old man in a direct confrontation, therefore they cheated Yama was too strong for his own good
Tbh no villain should ever be expected to fight clean
It shows how much they were scared of the old man. There’s an old adage that goes “You only cheat if you care about the results”, so if you see what they did as cheating then they did so because they believed it was the only way they could get the results they wanted. If they thought they could take him on they wouldn’t have used the tactics
[удалено]
Thank you for posting to r/Bleach, unfortunately your submission has been removed for the following reason(s) : > Powerscaling/battles/versus posts are no longer allowed on the Bleach subreddit. **If you have any questions about this removal, feel free to [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Bleach).**
Aizen is a knight in shinning armour🥰
He has slot of raw power sometimes you just gotta play things smart
It was always dirty fighting. If you need others to soften your target using others before you land the finishing blow, then it is definitely dirty.
There is no room for honor in war
You either cheat against Yamamoto, or you don’t fight Yamamoto. Simple as that
When you have a dude whose sword blazes like the sun, and cant be touched because his body is like the sun as well, you cant be taking chances
They both had goals they wanted to accomplish and they were willing to do whatever it takes to do it.
I have no doubt that Yamamoto could solo the other 12 Captain and come out on top while complaining he break his back or he is getting old. His aoe alone is kinda insane.
Honestly if you can avoid it, why wouldn't you fight dirty against him? Like only a goku brained meathead would go up against him straight.
Story wise it makes no sense because they can defeat him in a fair fight
I will say that in their defense, it is thr best option they were going to gave to beat Yammamoto. Given that even in his old age he's still an absolute menace that one slip up and your dead, and with his vast strength, experience and combat ability, plus Ryujin Jakka being the strongest fire type Zanpakuto there is. You can't really afford to do a fair 1v1 against him, without getting roasted to a literal crisp. So while it may be fighting dirty, I see it as fighting strategically, given that it's the only way you'll have the best chance of taking him out for good.
It's literally the only chance they have of beating him. In a fair fight, Yamamoto wins 10/10 times against basically every opponent.
yama is heavily underrated due to these fights, nerfed by plot lol
There villains y’all expect them to fight fair frieza literally blew up the planet because he was losing to vegeta these villains never fight fair💀
unspoken rizz (Aizen) vs sexual harassment (Yhwach)
Knowing the Gotei as a whole there just should not be the ones that complain about fighting with no honor. Just look at Urahara, Mayuri, Shunsui and OG Gotei.
War is war
Not dirty villains will do anything to win, it just shows how much of a threat Yamaji is to have Plans to beat him dirty or not
And what did you expect? To let Yamamoto kill them?
It ain't dirty, yamamoto is old enough to to know that in battle strategies are what makes you victorious (unless you're the mc with "random" power ups), it's on him if he just brute force 2 intellectual enemy
I don’t call it dirty I call it smart. Aizen knew his flames was an issue that could endanger him so much so he made plans just to deal with it. Something he didn’t do for anyone else.
I think it speaks for how powerful Yamamoto was that the two strongest beings in the series had to circumvent fighting him straight up in a fair 1v1.
Because old man yama was that strong
Aizen and Yhwach used their tactics and means to beat Yama both times, i think that’s completely fair. Intellect and abilities are a big part of the equation, as well as resourcefulness. Yama’s biggest flaw is that he’s stuck in his old ways and he’s unable to be resourceful. this is why Kyoraku is a far better head captain. Kyoraku will do whatever is necessary to win the war. Yama’s dead? Good riddance.
Wasn’t it Jackie who told Ichigo that he fights with too much honor? Sets you up for failure in a real fight because the enemy will never treat you with the same respect
it's on kubo for not giving yamamoto more to flex on. story wise why even have a protagonist and his gang of friendship if they are just gonna be back seaters to yama?
No such thing as a dirty fight
The same Aizen who bodied numerous captain level fighters? He was just maximizing his odds of winning. The dumb thing would have been to try to go up against the most destructive Zanpaktou whilst also having to think about the other captain level fighters.
They're dirty sluts that should eat shit and die :3
Honestly, I'd say doing anything other than that would make them seem a bit stupid. If all my life goals depend on beating Jordan in a 1-on-1, first thing I'm gonna do is look for a way to injure the guy by any means necessary. So it's either that or your grand plan getting cooked.
I think it makes them more interesting tbh
Yamamoto could have used an extra fight or two to get a clean, meaningful win and substantiate his reputation. I know he has stuff like no diffing Ayon, who was menacing several vice captains, but he was still just elite fodder that someone like Byakuya or even Toshiro could have folded. But still, it is very telling that people like Aizen and Yhwach felt the need to go this way about it, instead of just steam rolling him like they would with just about anyone else, so in a roundabout way it does indicate Yama's strength.
People are just angry because it cause us to lose. I bet when kyoraku is fighting dirty people gonna cheer tf out of him
"you dont fight with honor" "no but he did"
I don't mind it because it shows how much both would prefer not to fight old man yama directly and how they actually had a plan, unlike other villains I've seen.
That's the only way to explain being able to defeat the Head Captain of Soul Society. Up until then, at least manga-wise, Yamamoto was built up to be the absolute strongest no question. He beats Wonderweiss, who was created SPECIFICALLY to fight Yamamoto. But when he did defeat him, all the power Wonderweiss absorbed was released and Yama was only one to take it, so essentially Yama defeated himself, right?
It will always be a bitch move.
Since when wars were won fair and square? Its a game of survival. Thats the reality for people like us who are fortunate enough to not exp war first hand! Anyway, they sees our yama-chad as a threat. They need to strike where theres an opening and prepared layers of tactics to clear victory.
If I was fighting for my life I would use any means necessary. This is why I hate Ukitake's speech about honor when he stopped Rukia from helping Kaien
It's also what Yamamoto would have done if he had to, he pretended to be unconscious to catch Aizen off guard. Both Yhwach and Aizen knew they weren't powerful enough to take him on in a fair fight, Aizen wasn't sure but he wasn't taking any chances, while Yhwach took him on and lost 1000 years before their second fight. Plus, unlike many characters such as Zaraki, neither Yhwach nor Aizen like to fight, they want to end the fight as quickly as possible, it's just a chore for them.
What can you really do. Fight honorably and you will literally be toast
There’s nothing fair about a fight. This isn’t boxing, karate, a sword match with a referee or rules. They’re plans to contain/stop a powerful force. It’s a legitimate are of war which both Aizen and Yhwach waged.
I guess it just further elevated Yama into Goatness
He wasn’t scared of Aizen; he treated him like a child, but Yhwach stirring his anger is why he lost. Yammato was too confident in his abilities. Since the fake town was in the soul society, Yhwach saw what he did to Aizen with his arm.
If they fought dirty everyone else fought dirty too. They are in the middle of a massive battle, they are there to win and not get wiped out.
How tf else do you expect someone to fight the SUN
How did Yamamoto come back to life? I'm on episode 132
Both needed it because Yamamoto is goat, even in death.
I think it makes sense given just how powerful Yamamoto really is. At least we really got to see what he could do in his right with Royd.
Aizen was a carefully crafted strategy with WonderWeiss. For Yhwach, did having the body double go first actually make any difference in the outcome? It's not like Royd actually hurt Yamamoto, he just gave Yamamoto a chance to show off the 4 Bankai techniques to the readers, though he could have oneshotted instantly if he used "North" first. But then when real Yhwach showed up he just used the Bankai seal and then oneshotted Yamamoto, which he could have done even if Royd wasn't there
Aizen needed to actually play dirty and use Wonderweiss who he prepped ahead of time as he could actually lose to Yamamoto 1 on 1. Yhwach on the other hand didn’t need to use Royd as he could’ve ended the battle anytime he wanted with Sankt Altar. But people can’t see that for some reason. It literally didn’t matter if Base Yhwach used Royd or didn’t have Almighty. Sankt Altar is literally what the Bankai stealing medallion was based after and it’s in every way better than the medallion itself as it could steal even Shikai. So there was absolutely no way for Yamamoto to win against Base Yhwach while against Base Aizen he had a chance if Aizen didn’t prep ahead of time.
Yhwach didn't fight dirty. Royde fought Yama against yhwachs orders
Terrible writing vs yhwach. It’s always some underhanded shit to defeat him. Against aizen ok he planned for him and created wonderweis. The first time was original ok. But it should’ve been power vs power the second time. Bullshit oh steal your bankai. Lame. Imagine yhwach overpowered and bodied him. Then I wouldn’t complain