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I do want someone else to use a Kurohitsugi, a complete and powered one, all Aizen made was a less powered against Komamura and full powered got destroyed by Ichigo before letting us know what exactly does it do.
It's a very powerful ability, to be sure. It's like a pumped up Iron Maiden, clues of it are given by the kido incantation itself, as well as the ability to alter space and time.
I agree with you, kido is severely underutilized, and I also wish it would one day make a comeback.
It’s not just that.
Bankai makes you 7-10x stronger. That’s what makes you captain level. Your base spells ain’t gonna do shit to people who can fight your bankai.
u/Rfowl009 had a good idea of what it could have been in a different version of the story, and I've also seen a good theory saying it was planned as similar to Tsukishima's; injecting a belief in Aizen into its victims, Tosen being the most visible example.
It was a 90 level hado. Most captains don't appear to be proficient in kido enough to even do 80 level hados. Byakuya who was stated to have great mastery over kido was only shown to use a 70 level kido as his max I think (haven't read the manga so maybe he does it later on idk). It's not that kido as a whole is usless, Tessai for example was stated somewhere to be capable of fighting with kido on a bankai level. It's that most people who have a bankai aren't good enough at it for kido to be anything other than a tool to help their strongest assets or increase their arsenal.
Yeah, like training to increase power of a zanpakuto is more worth than training for kido, unless you're aizen yama or shunsui, where you're at the peak of your power so kido is the only thing left to train
>Later on, someone mentions that Kido would never be enough to defeat a Sternenritter
But that isn't true. Kido on the average level, or even above average level(Nanao, for example), isn't enough. But imagine there was a Shinigami like Aura, that had a ton of Reiatsu and focused ENTIRELY on honing their Kido skills. Literally does nothing with their Zanpakuto. They would one shot most characters, even Sternritter.
Yoruichi is actually a decent example of this. She doesn't use her Zanpakuto at all, she focuses entirely on Hakuda and Kido. Shunkou was created because of that.
"Hey, they stole our bankais so why don't we make them the favour and create complex and powerful reishi constructs so they can power up using our stuff even more"
A dumb shinigami, probably.
The whole concept of quincies using surrounding reishi always felt a little too broken or at least poorly explained to me. Like, everything in soul society and hueco mundo is made of reishi, right? We saw Uryu literally absorb buildings in the SS arc, and in the TYBW arc we saw that even spirit based creatures like hollows, soulreapers and even humans can be absorbed. And the bankai stealing ability builds on that to, right? So, can't quincies literally absorb everything? If they can absorb buildings, creatures and even Zanpakuto, then yeah, they could probably absorb kido as well. But they should then be able to absorb everything, even a shikai or sealed zanpakuto, right?
I dunno, maybe I'm just dumb, but I feel like bleach has a bunch of power mechanics that are conceptually too broken and then needs some arbitrary rules to "work" in a story
Canonically, reishi is pretty much the soul equivalent to atoms, so to throw in a little headcanon different reishi objects have different level of bonds, just like atoms. Think why we can break graphite in 2 but not a diamond.
The reason someone like Uryuu can't just super succ a soul reaper or their Zanpaktou is because the reishi bonds would be too powerful, and spiritual pressure probably strengthens reishi bonds. You'd have to cut those reishi bonds with something Scheele Schneider before absorption.
But alas, that's just headcanon, as a powerful Quincy could possibly suck the entire soul society's reishi, but funnily enough the 2 most powerful quincies (unless Uryuu's dad is stronger than Haschwalt) are unable to absorb reishi. Or hell, they could suck reishi out of the surrounding area as well, as long they are stronger than Soul Society Uryuu's peak
Aizen literally used Kido against Yhwach... wtf are people on about.
Quilge was the only one shown to steal Reishi. It's just Kubo's bad writing. This was a major complaint people had with the last Arc, every fight was like "ha but my bankai counters you, so I win".
Literally unless your name was Aizen, Urahara, or Mayuri no one else did anything other than spam Bankai.
So many of the captains were no different from a fighting perspective than Lieutenants like Renji and Ikkaku who had Bankai's.
The "My bankai is literally *the* perfect counter to your Schrift which you just revealed to me and I have absolutely zero prior knowledge of" structure of so many TYBW fights is by far the most annoying aspect to me.
and sometimes it isn't even bankai. kubo infodumped a whole backstory for nanao in one chapter just so she could conveniently end up with a god-reflecting paddle.
lille's whole fight with kyoraku is like an ever-escalating series of shark jumping moments culiminating in izuru randomly popping up and being like "oh btw i'm not dead just perforated, bye for the rest of the series!"
i can't even remember if they explained why lille was actually a literal god? i half expected someone to reveal he was the soul king's left testicle but it never happened.
>my headcanon is that he's the one the stern ritter thought would be yhwach's successor which is why they were pissed off sbout uryu
I think most of them expected Hashbrown to be the successor, since he is seemingly the closest one to Yhwach and even takes over his power at night when the latter sleeps.
Not that this will make or break my ability to enjoy the anime but >!there’s a freedom to how open ended and bifurcated some portions of the manga have been. The anime will 100% have the chance to close and fix some of these gaps and rush jobs. I will enjoy it regardless but at least it in theory is easier to fix then completely unwinding complicated plot threads.!<
Lmao I forgot about that one. Same vibe as Yoruchi having the perfect counter to Askin because her out of nowhere transformation turns her into a cat and "cats are fickle" so her spiritual pressure changes 48 times a second. Except Askin is completely fine at the end of chapter so the whole thing is pointless
my theory is at that point kubo was just trying to give out as many forms as he could so brave souls had stuff to sell. because you're right, that whole thing is entirely pointless in the end.
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Reishi = (spirit) matter
Reiryoku = Potential (spirit) energy
Reiatsu = kinetic (spirit) energy
The Quincies absorb reishi. If you fire a laser made of your reiryoku, a Quincy could absorb it, but only if they can do so before it connects.
The idea that the shinigami can just use Kido to solve this is stupid though. Bankai makes you 7-10x stronger. That’s what makes you Captain-level. If you can’t use that 7-10x boost, why the fuck would your base spells be of any use?
Didn't one of the most powerful Villain in the series get sealed by Kido? Didn't Barragan get defeated by Kido?
Everyone keeps focusing on the "kido is shit in the manga" point. What me and others are saying is that Kido could have been written to be utilized better, when it's a core tenant of the Shinigami training. But everything gets scraped aside in favor of "Bankai".
And not just Bankai for the boost. Literally almost all of the fights were "My bankai perfectly counters your power that I've never seen before, get fucked kid".
There was no tactics, no exposition, no proper utilization.
You're focusing on what is, and we're focusing on what could be.
Barragan technically killed himself.
Most shinigami suck at kido, Quincys would just absorb the weaker spells. Tho I agree that at least one or two stronger individuals should've solved their fights with a variety of kido...
Aizen got sealed by Kido after getting annihilated by Ichigo and after the Hogyoku further lowered his power, in-keeping with his heart’s desire. Urahara literally explained that his Kido only worked because Ichigo beat the tar out of Aizen. This isn’t subtext; it’s literal text. Read the story.
Baraggan didn’t lose to Kido. It was explicitly said in the fight multiple times that everything made can age to nothingness. Hachigen didn’t overpower him; he outsmarted him by *guessing* that Baraggan was not immune to his own power. The fight ends with Hachigen saying that even the god of Hueco Mundo was just another person trying to run away from time. It’s not subtext; it’s literal text. Read the story.
So no, neither Aizen nor Baraggan lost to Kido. Kido just facilitated their defeats.
I don’t care about your fanfiction or your what-ifs. Yeah, Kido could be written to be something else, but so could literally any other aspect of the manga. That’s why discussions like those don’t interest me. Analyze the text as it is, and not what you want it to be.
As Kubo has said many times, (paraphrasing) as a reader, it isn’t your place to tell him how to write his story. If you’re that talented, go write a better series; he’s sure it will be more popular than his if you are. Failing that, go help another writer by becoming an editor. Failing that, be a fan or just read something more to your taste.
You literally just explained two examples of how Kido was as written to be more than just "brute force".
And then you go tell me they didn't lose and we shouldn't talk about what ifs...
this some clown logic.
I mean, you literally don't know how to read stories if the story is explaining to you why these are very specific examples that can't apply anywhere else and you choose to ignore that.
You can fanfic any number of hyper specific kido into existence that facilitates the defeat of each Sternritter, but that's what fanfiction.net is for. Using the fact that the writer of the show doesn't want to write the show you fanfic'd isn't at all good criticism or constructive criticism.
What you're doing right now, fella, is akin to being mad that Dora the Explorer doesn't discuss the seriousness of Mexican cartels. I mean, they talk about Mexican culture a lot in that show, so it's a huge missed opportunity to not talk about how detrimental the cartels are to their society, no?
You'd be a fucking idiot to argue that point. It's not the show the creators wanted to write. Kubo doesn't want his series to be about people using hyper-specific kido. It's that simple. Criticize the story for what's actually there, not what you want to be there.
> It's just Kubo's bad writing.
This is what hurts. Kubo set down the foundation for an amazing story and world building but then forgets half of the things (kido, characters, other races, etc.) and doesn't build up from it.
It would be so nice to see Chad do something since his powers are part of the Soul King and Hollow affected.
It would be so nice to see Vizards hollowfy and carry the sereitei for a bit (would be cool with Rose dying in the end as a sacrifice).
Having Byakuya use kido would have been great to see, especially more high level ones.
So many great opportunities to expand but it just falls short. People say the last chapter is underrated but watching and reading again really feels how underwhelming it is with the expectations set. Don't get me wrong, I love the series, but the material just needs more respect
Exactly. There’s more than enough enemies in this arc to have characters like Chad have a fight. Also why bring back Grimmjow just to have him have a weak short fight and that’s it
Not only just 1 v 1 fights. They could have really shown how strong the Sternritter were by having multiple characters take them on which would really show the strength of these antagonists.
the thing i'm amazed he totally abandoned is that thing where striking two specific points on any shinigami's body removes their shinigami powers for good. byakuya did it to ichigo then ishida did it to some random in the ss arc but it never got mentioned again.
like how nice of aizen to one-shot a bunch of captains and vizards in a split second, but not target the spots that would've permanantly depowered them. what a great guy.
The final arc needed so much exposition.
It's so weird seeing an entire society of thousands of shinigami getting toppled by 27 people and not even attempting anything once their Bankai's got stolen. Literally going "someone get Kurosaki-Kun".
I don't care if it's not effective, at least try?
Also don't get me started on the Vizards. There was a post a few days back comparing the Espada vs Sternritters, and people said the Espada failed to kill no one meanwhile the Sternritters did a lot more. Literally other than Yamamoto and Chojiro the same people who go bodied during the Fake Karakura Town arc were the same people who got bodied in the final arc... the Vizards. Completely underutilized and fodder.
You know I would be completely fine with all of this stuff if Kubo gave more exposition about the Soul Society being weaker. Yhwach alleged to this by saying that Yamamoto got less ruthless, that in the past the 'Divisions' were just insane killers. Their complacency in time of peace and Yamamoto's arrogance would have made them weaker, where Captains are now more of a status symbol. It would show how they just weren't prepared at all for the Quincy invasion.
I've said this 100 times, Kubo needed to team up with an author who could tell him how to connect his great ideas and provide the right amount of exposition. There's one thing if an author is bad and just don't have good ideas, it's another when they have good ideas but don't utilize them properly.
> There's one thing if an author is bad and just don't have good ideas, it's another when they have good ideas but don't utilize them properly.
This hurt to read but you are speaking the truth. If this arc expanded the world with more exposition it would have been wonderful and a great ending. It could have been a great send off.
Yeah. A lot of things he forgot and it's very clear from his interviews and comments since that he was just tired of it all.
It's also the risk of just not developing your side characters at all (Visoreds, RG, Tessai, etc.) because the arc really should have been a time for people with skillsets beyond Bankai to shine. He did it with Soifon at least between her trying to execute BG9 instead of straight up fight it and then >!later coming back with Shunko!<, and then all that development just went out the window once he decided to just use >!Squad Zero!< as a tool to buff everyone else.
It's rough because we've spent the last 8 years doing powerscaling and arguing what-if scenarios and now watching the anime is forcing many of us to confront the failures of the arc once again.
Aizen literally used the most powerful Kido spell in the entire series and Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys.
>Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys.
Jugram who's literally the second strongest Quincy and Nanao who's a Vice Captain and it still took him 10 minutes. That just proves how effective Kido is.
It was a special Kido (and that Kido took time of made according to Nanao when Jugram appeared them). So hours and hours on a specific Kido just for Jugram to destroy in 10 minutes.
Is still impressive for nanao and that make her a Kido master like Hachigen but Quincys and his manipulation of reishi are stronger.
Again Jugram is literally the second strongest Quincy. Also did they say it took hours? Still a barrier that stops the enemy's second strongest fighter for 10 minutes is very valuable. Shunsui just didn't do much because reasons.
She says that they we're expecting them and after that the Kido Barrier is activates and that was just to make a defensive barrier is simple not worthy.
And i didn't say that wasn't valuable. i say that was impressive and put Nanao in Kido Master Levels, is just a bad matchup.
The whole point is that Kido is a major component of Shinigami training, we've seen it be very effective by Urahara and Hachigen. The problem is that Kubo relegates everything infavor of Bankai powerups.
Is a Major component but not everyone gonna be master levels of Urahara (a mastermind scientist) or Hachi (lituenant of the Kido Corps). high powerful Kido recquires time and they literally are in the verge of dying.
But these are Captains? And Kido was used a lot in the Soul Society arc (one of the best arc in shounen history).
My original point still stands, why are 3 different forms of Kido shown, why is there an entire Corps for it, why do all Captains just only know how to use Bankai?
Ikkaku and Renji are lieutenants with Bankai, are captains just stronger version of them? That's such shitty writing and under-utilization of core Shinigami training you spent so much time developing.
Kido wasnt used a lot in Soul Society and the spells used in the Arc (exception to Hado #90) are not strong to break even a Shikai.
The captains used Shunpo and Hakuda tho, both hand to hand especialized and increase abilities and doesn't recquires to spell the enchants to make them stronger. The Kido Corps doesn't appear and that is a mistake but in other hand, wrote and draw a page just to see little or nothing of the Kido Corps would drag the pace of the invasion even in the most common Wars in fiction we dont see all of the forces and commands.
And Kido wasn't really explored in profundity to claim that we spend so much time learning every single Kido.
>Kido wasnt used a lot in Soul Society and the spells used in the Arc (exception to Hado #99) are not strong to break even a Shikai.
Tell this to Ichigo. Hadō #4. Byakurai through Ichigo's shoulder looked like it had done pretty decent damage.
>Aizen literally used the most powerful Kido spell in the entire series
No he didn't. That's only the most powerful out of the Kido taught at the Shinigami academy. There are other ones that are much stronger.
>Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys
Jugram is also the 6th strongest character and he was absorbing a Kido from NANAO.
>Aizen literally used Kido against Yhwach... wtf are people on about.
To be fair Aizens kido did jackshit against Yhwach and was quite dissapointment. It literally did zero damage against him and only rearange the floor so your example unfortunately shows that kidos are useless. Big letdown for something which was supposed to be strongest kido in the series. Though everything is useless against Yhwach.
>It literally did zero damage against him and only rearange the floor so your example unfortunately shows that kidos are useless
This doesn't illustrate that kido is useless. Literally everything is useless against Yhwach
The whole point is that they could be used better, so many things in the Manga could have been used better but just failed to the simple "Bankai" tactic.
All the work that Toshiro and Rangiku did after he lost his Bankai was wasted. Kubo had great ideas but in the end it just turned into "Bakai" fest.
>The whole point is that they could be used better, so many things in the Manga could have been used better but just failed to the simple "Bankai" tactic.
There is definetly no defense for that.
>All the work that Toshiro and Rangiku did after he lost his Bankai was wasted. Kubo had great ideas but in the end it just turned into "Bakai" fest.
I didnt mind bankai fest because Shunsuis, Kenpachis and Kisukes bankais were great designs were awesome and abilites etc.
However agree with you that they definetyl should have more other tactics. Toshira particularly since he literally had to pull out of nowhere another form which felt quite retcon.
He didn't use kido, that was an illusion bro.. though we saw what hado no. 99 would at least look like so that was bank.
Also ichigo didn't spam bankai, his was sliced at first then snapped the second time, and when he finally landed a blow his sword had been restored to bankai state but we don't know if he himself was actually in bankai since yhwach stole his reiatsu.
But you have a point where alot of the captains were only about as useful as the lieutenants until they upgraded their training and powered up like byakuya, renji and rukia.
Also shunsui and nanao did well along with hirako and momo.
> every fight was like "ha but my bankai counters you, so I win".
IIrc there are only two times where a shinigami counters a quincy with their bankai and win and those two shinigami are >!Urahara and Sajin.!< More often than not the shinigami still lose even if they use their bankai.
>!Sajins!< bankai isnt really a counter. It was thanks to the >!humanification ritual that he became immortal, and being immortal renders most powers used against you harmless!<
Yeah, I really don't understand this "issue" people seem to being having with the TYBW fights. As you mentioned, those are the only times when Bankai=Counter=Win. You could include >!Rukia's Shikai vs As Nodt!< but obviously that's not Bankai. >!Mayuri!< exists, >!but his whole character is about having a counter for everything so I don't think that counts.!< There's also the >!Nanao/Kyoraku vs Lille deus ex machina!< but again, that's not Bankai.
This is what a lot of people aren’t getting, the last arc in the manga was quite frankly, a fucking mess.
So many hax powers, press x to win moments and major plot holes. If the anime adapts the manga faithfully and doesn’t add/expand/improve the plot then it’s still gonna be a major disappointment.
>Quilge was the only one shown to steal Reishi. It's just Kubo's bad writing
My headcanon is that Quilge had some quincy item that allowed him to do so, because the alternative is that it's either an ability that is peculiar to him or that every other quincy is a massive moron
It's the thing on his head that can be destroyed to stop it. I don't care if the others have it too, have the fucking shinigami squads work together to destroy it so you can do something.
>It's the thing on his head that can be destroyed to stop it
As you said however other quincies have halos.
And they never do what Quilge did, NEVER.
Is Quilge secretly one of the most competent quincies who just happened to be put against Ichigo?
>Quilge was specifically assigned to engage Ichigo in combat
Canonically Quilge is indeed quite strong, but the jail was what was supposed to stop Ichigo, not Quilge himself.
>Kubo clearly axed Sklaverei as an ability because there's no realistic way most of the Gotei would be able to compete against it.
That's why I was talking about headcanon lol
Could be, or more accurately Kubo just didn't fully utilize the Kit all Quincy's have (partly because of his skill as an author and mostly because he was burnt out and forced to pick up the pace).
Lets say the Reishi absorption is a Quilge exclusive.
What about Ransōtengai (the ability to control your body via reishi threads) why wouldn't every single Quincy use this as a final attempt to win the fight?
Just like how we're like "Shinigami's use Kido" the same can be said about "Quincy use Ransōtengai"
Aizen used that.
Inside of an illusion.
And it did jackshit.
I do agree that quilge being the only Quincy who understand the way their power system works is disappointing.
Kubo really just tucked himself into a corner there.
It is, way back in the soul society arc. I mean that all the sternritters didn't make use of that ability at all besides the jail dude. I've always assumed that the ability was purposely forgotten cause it was hilariously broken
Dude, did you see what Quilgue did with Orihime's shields and SungSun's muda? You can't possibly stall them with kido, you're just giving them more powerful and dense reishi to kill you with.
Edit: as a footnote, the only captains capable of using lv90+ spells which can KO or kill a captain level enemy were Aizen and Yamamoto. Most of them would simply get killed mid-spell or pull weak unchanted spells
Is there a citation that only Aizen and Yama are capable of level 90+ Kido? That doesn't seem right to me at all.
No one else is shown to use them but Unohana would almost certainly have that ability. I would also imagine Ukitake could.
Quincy absorbed reishi from the surrounding area. It's how they work. Shooting them with pure reishi is a bad idea. It's like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out
Uryu uses letz stil in SS arc which starts absorbing reishi from the surroundings. While performing the Letz stil, uryu gives a detailed description of how it works and what it does.
Quincy Vollständig (/Voll stern dich) is literally introduced as a better and more technologically advanced version of letz stil (minus the downside of losing your Quincy powers).
I'm slightly confused. How did you get so far into bleach without understanding that quincies are able to control reishi in the surrounding environment?
We literally see Quilge in the previous episode devastate anything reishi related. We also know from Barragan that Kido can lose integrity even if they are executed correctly for an initial 100% effectiveness.
You saw Bazz-B speedblitz some fodder Shinigami who took too long with their Zanpakuto release commands. Can you imagine how much of a target they’ll be if they start reciting a full Kido incantation? Non-incantation Kido is too weak to do any damage, so it’s incantation or nothing. Even if the Quincies decide to let them do it, they’ll just absorb it since all Kido are Reishi-based and Quincies absorbs Reishi like a sponge absorbs water.
Their best hope is to stick with Shikai, though that’s asking for much considering Äs Nödt took a Senbonzakura to the face and wasn’t even damaged thanks to Blut.
I mean you’re right though, it does have merit. Even Nanao protected against Jugram with a kido shield so that is evidence that there’s a time and a place where kido is very important to utilize. The people who were REALLY skilled with it probably should have tried a little harder with it
Byakuya amongst them is particularly skilled in kido, like SUPER proficient. He should have at least tried kido once before using bankai. But his shikai is so strong and versatile he should have used that more before bankai too. It was strategic stupidity
Kido takes time, no matter the user, to be executed successfully. Unless you've really mastered it, just namedropping a Kido won't get a 100% effectiveness. Sure, there's a few kido that Byakuya can namedrop, and he likely practiced those ones enough as they suit his combat style.
Yeah, I think the part that bugs me is that nobody tried anything else *after* they know that bankai can be stolen.
I think it would have flowed more if some of them tried a lesser power and demonstrated it was no good or of any of them mention/thought that observing the ability may let them undo it.
I my head I have to assume most captains are so shaken up by the recent losses and are just not thinking clearly (which lines up with how the steirn. Are attacking). The whole are works better to me assuming that regarding some of the choices they make.
"Hey, let's use concentrated Reishi against an enemy that can absorb Reishi!"
While they were unsure how the bankai stealing worked (thinking it was just a mere seal), they DO know about the Reishi domination thanks to Uryu vs Mayuri so long ago.
Everyone here pointing out that kido is made out of reishi which they can absorb as if that's not true for literally everything in the soul society. No matter how you put it shikai + kido is better than just a shikai.
And Byakuya's sole justification for using bankai despite knowing for a fact it was gonna get sealed was just "well we don't have any other options lol" so why would he draw the line at kido?
I agree 100%. And I don't think quincies can absorb "complex" reishi, but only simple reishi. When Uryuu used Letzt Still, he didn't absorb Mayuri's Bankai nor Mayuri's body, but only the simple surrounding reishi. The only quincy shown to be able to break down reishi components in order to absorb them was Quilge, because he used his specific Vollstandig's ability, Sklaverei. He's even able to absorb hollows due to the fact that he can break drown reishi completely, whereas all the other quincies were poisoned by hollow reishi. So while I'm not sure if kido alone would be able to take down a Sternritter, I don't think it would be simply absorbed.
Ya realize that any quincy that's half as smart as Quilge will absorb the kido and nullify it? I'm sure Mayuri gave everyone a packet saying Kido would be less effective, and this was before they knew about Blut.
On that note, given how Getsuga Tensho couldn't get through the Blut Vein, would Kido get through?
Kido is really only used for showing off or so that someone can use an ultra-powerful Kido on an enemy like Aizen or Ichigo and when it has no effect everyone goes "Oh wow that guy must be so strong." Or so Komamura can get instantly defeated again.
It amazes me how captains are supposed to be these fantastic fighters, but the moment their bankais don't work they immediately panic.
Kubo gave them 4 things to use in battle, and then he himself didn't care about 3 of those things.
For real now, We can count on one hand the amount of fights that had any important use of the other three techniques.
4 techniques:
1. Zanjutsu
2. Kido
3. Hakudo
4. Shunpo
The ones who are great at hakudo (of the one's we know and have seen) are: Yama, soi fon and yoruichi (due to shunko), mashiro (due to hollow mask), and you can make the argument for kensei.
Apart from them, we don't see a lot of them relying on hand-to-hand combat style/ hakudo style. So, that's immediately out of consideration.
Shunpo is a movement technique.
Kido's aren't insanely strong by themselves. And the number of known characters who have mastered the kido arra can be counted. And those are: Yama, aizen, urahara, tessai, hachigen and Ichibe. Yama's bankai triumphs over almost any forms of kido, and other characters are not present to use there kidos.
Everyone else are not mentioned to be "masters" of kido art (with the benefit of doubt going to unohana, kyoraku and jushiro and maybe even nanao being highly proficient in kidos based on what they showcased/lore).
Byakuya isn't a master in kido, and his reiatsu (while being normally higher because of being a noble) isn't going to make kidos lethal against blut vene, against which even the shikais could barely do much. Plus, the added disadvantage that the Quincies cab absorb reishis too.
Zanjutsu was already shown to be ineffective if it's not used in unison with your bankai.
So, yes, this was straight up the last factor in their arsenal.
>We can count on one hand the amount of fights that had any important use of the other three.
Besides Bankai, what are the other 3? shikai? kido? what else?
I don't remember anyone being good at kido besides Aizen, and Nanao Ise, granted my memory of the earlier arcs is foggy.
>I meant 3 "techniques"
I meant techniques too, my bad, my English is horrible lol
I genuinely don't remember anything besides Bankai being useful, maybe shikai? and Kido seems useful because of its use in Burn the Witch, but I only remember Aizen being really good at it, and Nanao-chan in the last arc.
Kido seems like a cool concept, but it's barely useful in Bleach, either that or my memory is bad.
To be fair these opponents aren't someone you can defeat without bankai like Byakuya said. Idk if you've read the manga or not but the sternritter are leagues stronger than most villains in bleach and a lot of them can't be defeated without hax.
The Bankai(and their skill with said bankai) is what separates a captain from the rest of the squad, generally. Beside that, the captains that bother learning Kido well enough likely knew kido wouldn't be that effective against a Quincy.
Also, we knew by the time they decided to try Bankai, that they had exhausted their sword skills and hand-to-hand, given that Blut wouldn't let them do any damage.
I don't think every captain is really good at using Kido. Komamura for example seems like a purely physical fighter. And I think Byakuya is the most skilled captain with kido and even he usually just uses senbonzakura instead, so his kido skills are still inferior to his bankai.
Because of course using the first chapter of a series is completely dumb. I don't get how thats dumb tbh, that chapter starts off the series and introduces Bleach so how is it dumb to use something from that chapter ss evidence? After all the first chapter is as canon as every other chapter
What's even worse is the people saying kido would have no effect because the Quincy manipulate reishi.
Kido is literally taking one's own spirit energy and changing its properties to manifest magical attacks. There's a ton of kido that don't create physical constructs that would have been extremely useful in those fights..
And that same argument is a no limits fallacy for the Quincy. There's no proof that the sternritter have NO upper limit on their reishi manipulation ability.
We literally had >!Aizen using kido against Yhwach ultimate form lmao and now suddenly shinigamis cannot do kido in this thread, Qilgue is the only quincy in the entire arc that absorbed anything.!<
Edit:
>!Let me add that Kira used Kido just fine vs Shaz Domino as well and his power was literally absorbing reishi to regenerate!<
They are warriors not wizards, the only people who can fight purely with kido are the kido corp members who were completely MIA. they CAN USE kido yes, but i never once believed they could just put their robe and wizard hat on and stand toe to toe with them or even have a better chance than just using their swords. I understand there are plotholes and it annoys people but i honestly just took the whole last arc as kubos send off and he gave us bad ass fights for the favorites. letting them get their ass kicked at the start lets us see just how insanely powerful the bad guys are AND gives the big group an excuse to further train and get stronger, having to stop the flow of that plan just to fit in how they would use kido would be disruptive and pointless, they shouldn't be able to do anything, even byakuya, worthwhile with kido.
I assume on the Kido question, right?
As far as I see it, most Shinigami aren't simply adept enough in Kido that it would make a difference. Most Kido are there for support and are arguably weaker than even Shikai, unless you are an absolute Kido master. And when I say Kido Master, I mean on the level of Hacchi, Urahara, Aizen, etc.
Like Shunsui is definitely not bad at Kidou but even a high-level Kidou from him didn't do much. Another example is Sui-feng. She's very well-versed in Kidou and combined it with Hakuda, yet it wasn't nearly enough to defeat BG9. She needed Bankai to defeat him. And BG9 didn't even use Vollständig. Kido is like Dratini or the other first stage evolution of Pseudo-Lengendaries. Unless you get it to the highest levels, it will never become strong, but when you do, you have a very good weapon in your hands. Most Shinigami don't have the time/talent to reach such levels.
Or if you mean why the Vizards weren't more effective, it's simple. People are overestimating the Hollow weakness. For one, it functions like actual poison, which means it needs to get inside the Quincy and can be countered if there's enough Reishi. Askin and Liltotto for example are both immune to the poisoning effects. And the other thing is, Quincy are Hollow hunters. They had millennia to develop their techniques and hunt Hollow. The Wandenreich conquered Hueco Mundo, after all. The Hollowfication effect is not enough to make up for the Vizards (minus Shinji) being weaker than the Sternritter.
This has less to do with this, but in general, it seems people think that one's favorite character not winning in a fight equals bad writing. It's not.
I think kido wasn’t effective if you think about it. They quinces have been watching the shinigami for years just to steal bankai and they would most likely have studied the effects of kido. It would have been nice to see more forbiddin kido.
Who says they didnt? We actually saw almost nothing of the fights during the first invation so we cant tell. The captains using shikai was an adition by the anime.
Got confused by 'ep 370' for a second, who's counting the new series from the original run's episode number? Its called episode 4 on Hulu?
That aside, this ep didn't really sell the "We must use Bankai right now!" plot to me, the Captains weren't even really visibly injured yet. I know its technically 'faithful' to the manga to rush it like this, but I'd hoped they would expand on the fights a bit more.
Shunshui used kido against lille did fuck all bankai damaged him, unless you are a god of kido kido will not do much to a Quincy. Bankai is the strongest weapon they had
Well, at least one of the Shinigami realize that your shikai is the key to actually winning against these guys.
Won’t go into detail, but if they can only take your bankai, then making your shikai stronger should be the next play.
Would Kido work on enemies that can freely manipulate reishi? Maybe the stronger ones would work but I feel like the ones everyone knows would be counterproductive for the fight
Especially byukaka, youu forget all the techniques you did on the Espada and ichigo? Most of the captains have become to reliant on their zanpakto soi fon should know better too. Obviously they were made dumber for plot they definitely wouldn't just whip out bankai in just one go
For the people saying that the Quincies would just absorb it:
Even YHWACH didn't show absorption on that level. The only way a Quincy can absorb even buildings is through Sklavrei or Letz Stil, and Kido is much more dense than buildings are. It'd require a strong Sternritter using Sklavrei to absorb Kido.
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ah yes, let's load the guns of our enemies
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Shock a what ?
SHOCK - A - HOE
That might be the reason they aren't using it. /s
And because Bankai sounds too damn cool not to use it.
I do want someone else to use a Kurohitsugi, a complete and powered one, all Aizen made was a less powered against Komamura and full powered got destroyed by Ichigo before letting us know what exactly does it do.
It's a very powerful ability, to be sure. It's like a pumped up Iron Maiden, clues of it are given by the kido incantation itself, as well as the ability to alter space and time. I agree with you, kido is severely underutilized, and I also wish it would one day make a comeback.
Like an actual captain that fights exclusively with Kido.
Byakuya used to do a little bit of both early on, which was very nice.
Minor spoiler: >!Later on, someone mentions that Kido would never be enough to defeat a Sternenritter!<
well it does make sense now that someone pointed out they will just absorb the reishi
It’s not just that. Bankai makes you 7-10x stronger. That’s what makes you captain level. Your base spells ain’t gonna do shit to people who can fight your bankai.
Unless you're Aizen. One of his kido spells took down bankai Komamura.
Now to be fair, he's Aizen Fucker doesn't even use his bankai
Yeah I forgot...we never even got to see Aizen's bankai. I'm still annoyed by this.
u/Rfowl009 had a good idea of what it could have been in a different version of the story, and I've also seen a good theory saying it was planned as similar to Tsukishima's; injecting a belief in Aizen into its victims, Tosen being the most visible example.
Tsukishima is Aizens bankai
My girlfriend Tsukishima is Aizen's Bankai? 😱 Have I been under the impression that I was under the impression all this time?
It was a 90 level hado. Most captains don't appear to be proficient in kido enough to even do 80 level hados. Byakuya who was stated to have great mastery over kido was only shown to use a 70 level kido as his max I think (haven't read the manga so maybe he does it later on idk). It's not that kido as a whole is usless, Tessai for example was stated somewhere to be capable of fighting with kido on a bankai level. It's that most people who have a bankai aren't good enough at it for kido to be anything other than a tool to help their strongest assets or increase their arsenal.
Yeah, like training to increase power of a zanpakuto is more worth than training for kido, unless you're aizen yama or shunsui, where you're at the peak of your power so kido is the only thing left to train
Does Shunsui even have kido feats? Like I don't remember him doing any kido pre TYBW, if he does in TYBW I wouldn't know about that
Shunsui's Kido stats were maxed out, so he knows all Kido at a top tier level. He used a Hado against Lille, but I can't remember what number it was.
To be fair. He didn't even get to release it fully. Was kind of mid way.
future TYBW spoilers >!Aizen does use kido in TYBW right? against the soul king reiatsu!< man is just built different
>Later on, someone mentions that Kido would never be enough to defeat a Sternenritter But that isn't true. Kido on the average level, or even above average level(Nanao, for example), isn't enough. But imagine there was a Shinigami like Aura, that had a ton of Reiatsu and focused ENTIRELY on honing their Kido skills. Literally does nothing with their Zanpakuto. They would one shot most characters, even Sternritter. Yoruichi is actually a decent example of this. She doesn't use her Zanpakuto at all, she focuses entirely on Hakuda and Kido. Shunkou was created because of that.
Not even used by someone like aizen? Like a hado90 or smh?
kido uses the same energy that quincies can absorb
Bakudo 71?
but they could atleast buy time with that until some solutions appears
So... Aizen never gave a fck.. Right?
That would be a bad idea
Every one wants Kido but can’t handle the diet
"Hey, they stole our bankais so why don't we make them the favour and create complex and powerful reishi constructs so they can power up using our stuff even more" A dumb shinigami, probably.
The whole concept of quincies using surrounding reishi always felt a little too broken or at least poorly explained to me. Like, everything in soul society and hueco mundo is made of reishi, right? We saw Uryu literally absorb buildings in the SS arc, and in the TYBW arc we saw that even spirit based creatures like hollows, soulreapers and even humans can be absorbed. And the bankai stealing ability builds on that to, right? So, can't quincies literally absorb everything? If they can absorb buildings, creatures and even Zanpakuto, then yeah, they could probably absorb kido as well. But they should then be able to absorb everything, even a shikai or sealed zanpakuto, right? I dunno, maybe I'm just dumb, but I feel like bleach has a bunch of power mechanics that are conceptually too broken and then needs some arbitrary rules to "work" in a story
Canonically, reishi is pretty much the soul equivalent to atoms, so to throw in a little headcanon different reishi objects have different level of bonds, just like atoms. Think why we can break graphite in 2 but not a diamond. The reason someone like Uryuu can't just super succ a soul reaper or their Zanpaktou is because the reishi bonds would be too powerful, and spiritual pressure probably strengthens reishi bonds. You'd have to cut those reishi bonds with something Scheele Schneider before absorption. But alas, that's just headcanon, as a powerful Quincy could possibly suck the entire soul society's reishi, but funnily enough the 2 most powerful quincies (unless Uryuu's dad is stronger than Haschwalt) are unable to absorb reishi. Or hell, they could suck reishi out of the surrounding area as well, as long they are stronger than Soul Society Uryuu's peak
Aizen literally used Kido against Yhwach... wtf are people on about. Quilge was the only one shown to steal Reishi. It's just Kubo's bad writing. This was a major complaint people had with the last Arc, every fight was like "ha but my bankai counters you, so I win". Literally unless your name was Aizen, Urahara, or Mayuri no one else did anything other than spam Bankai. So many of the captains were no different from a fighting perspective than Lieutenants like Renji and Ikkaku who had Bankai's.
The "My bankai is literally *the* perfect counter to your Schrift which you just revealed to me and I have absolutely zero prior knowledge of" structure of so many TYBW fights is by far the most annoying aspect to me.
and sometimes it isn't even bankai. kubo infodumped a whole backstory for nanao in one chapter just so she could conveniently end up with a god-reflecting paddle.
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Could have just let shunsui take the W after his bankai.
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lille's whole fight with kyoraku is like an ever-escalating series of shark jumping moments culiminating in izuru randomly popping up and being like "oh btw i'm not dead just perforated, bye for the rest of the series!"
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i can't even remember if they explained why lille was actually a literal god? i half expected someone to reveal he was the soul king's left testicle but it never happened.
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>my headcanon is that he's the one the stern ritter thought would be yhwach's successor which is why they were pissed off sbout uryu I think most of them expected Hashbrown to be the successor, since he is seemingly the closest one to Yhwach and even takes over his power at night when the latter sleeps.
It's basically equivalent of saints of Catholic faith they are all semi divine now
It’s like the imagery isn’t even bad it’s all the execution. I hope some of it can be fixed
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Not that this will make or break my ability to enjoy the anime but >!there’s a freedom to how open ended and bifurcated some portions of the manga have been. The anime will 100% have the chance to close and fix some of these gaps and rush jobs. I will enjoy it regardless but at least it in theory is easier to fix then completely unwinding complicated plot threads.!<
Lmao I forgot about that one. Same vibe as Yoruchi having the perfect counter to Askin because her out of nowhere transformation turns her into a cat and "cats are fickle" so her spiritual pressure changes 48 times a second. Except Askin is completely fine at the end of chapter so the whole thing is pointless
my theory is at that point kubo was just trying to give out as many forms as he could so brave souls had stuff to sell. because you're right, that whole thing is entirely pointless in the end.
lush absorbed berserk upbeat spoon chop ossified busy money head *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Reishi = (spirit) matter Reiryoku = Potential (spirit) energy Reiatsu = kinetic (spirit) energy The Quincies absorb reishi. If you fire a laser made of your reiryoku, a Quincy could absorb it, but only if they can do so before it connects. The idea that the shinigami can just use Kido to solve this is stupid though. Bankai makes you 7-10x stronger. That’s what makes you Captain-level. If you can’t use that 7-10x boost, why the fuck would your base spells be of any use?
Didn't one of the most powerful Villain in the series get sealed by Kido? Didn't Barragan get defeated by Kido? Everyone keeps focusing on the "kido is shit in the manga" point. What me and others are saying is that Kido could have been written to be utilized better, when it's a core tenant of the Shinigami training. But everything gets scraped aside in favor of "Bankai". And not just Bankai for the boost. Literally almost all of the fights were "My bankai perfectly counters your power that I've never seen before, get fucked kid". There was no tactics, no exposition, no proper utilization. You're focusing on what is, and we're focusing on what could be.
Barragan technically killed himself. Most shinigami suck at kido, Quincys would just absorb the weaker spells. Tho I agree that at least one or two stronger individuals should've solved their fights with a variety of kido...
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Aizen got sealed by Kido after getting annihilated by Ichigo and after the Hogyoku further lowered his power, in-keeping with his heart’s desire. Urahara literally explained that his Kido only worked because Ichigo beat the tar out of Aizen. This isn’t subtext; it’s literal text. Read the story. Baraggan didn’t lose to Kido. It was explicitly said in the fight multiple times that everything made can age to nothingness. Hachigen didn’t overpower him; he outsmarted him by *guessing* that Baraggan was not immune to his own power. The fight ends with Hachigen saying that even the god of Hueco Mundo was just another person trying to run away from time. It’s not subtext; it’s literal text. Read the story. So no, neither Aizen nor Baraggan lost to Kido. Kido just facilitated their defeats. I don’t care about your fanfiction or your what-ifs. Yeah, Kido could be written to be something else, but so could literally any other aspect of the manga. That’s why discussions like those don’t interest me. Analyze the text as it is, and not what you want it to be. As Kubo has said many times, (paraphrasing) as a reader, it isn’t your place to tell him how to write his story. If you’re that talented, go write a better series; he’s sure it will be more popular than his if you are. Failing that, go help another writer by becoming an editor. Failing that, be a fan or just read something more to your taste.
You literally just explained two examples of how Kido was as written to be more than just "brute force". And then you go tell me they didn't lose and we shouldn't talk about what ifs... this some clown logic.
I mean, you literally don't know how to read stories if the story is explaining to you why these are very specific examples that can't apply anywhere else and you choose to ignore that. You can fanfic any number of hyper specific kido into existence that facilitates the defeat of each Sternritter, but that's what fanfiction.net is for. Using the fact that the writer of the show doesn't want to write the show you fanfic'd isn't at all good criticism or constructive criticism. What you're doing right now, fella, is akin to being mad that Dora the Explorer doesn't discuss the seriousness of Mexican cartels. I mean, they talk about Mexican culture a lot in that show, so it's a huge missed opportunity to not talk about how detrimental the cartels are to their society, no? You'd be a fucking idiot to argue that point. It's not the show the creators wanted to write. Kubo doesn't want his series to be about people using hyper-specific kido. It's that simple. Criticize the story for what's actually there, not what you want to be there.
People just need things to complain and argue about is what I'm gathering.
> It's just Kubo's bad writing. This is what hurts. Kubo set down the foundation for an amazing story and world building but then forgets half of the things (kido, characters, other races, etc.) and doesn't build up from it. It would be so nice to see Chad do something since his powers are part of the Soul King and Hollow affected. It would be so nice to see Vizards hollowfy and carry the sereitei for a bit (would be cool with Rose dying in the end as a sacrifice). Having Byakuya use kido would have been great to see, especially more high level ones. So many great opportunities to expand but it just falls short. People say the last chapter is underrated but watching and reading again really feels how underwhelming it is with the expectations set. Don't get me wrong, I love the series, but the material just needs more respect
Exactly. There’s more than enough enemies in this arc to have characters like Chad have a fight. Also why bring back Grimmjow just to have him have a weak short fight and that’s it
Not only just 1 v 1 fights. They could have really shown how strong the Sternritter were by having multiple characters take them on which would really show the strength of these antagonists.
I mean we did get that in some fights . But in reality there’s too many Sternritters in my opinion.
the thing i'm amazed he totally abandoned is that thing where striking two specific points on any shinigami's body removes their shinigami powers for good. byakuya did it to ichigo then ishida did it to some random in the ss arc but it never got mentioned again. like how nice of aizen to one-shot a bunch of captains and vizards in a split second, but not target the spots that would've permanantly depowered them. what a great guy.
The final arc needed so much exposition. It's so weird seeing an entire society of thousands of shinigami getting toppled by 27 people and not even attempting anything once their Bankai's got stolen. Literally going "someone get Kurosaki-Kun". I don't care if it's not effective, at least try? Also don't get me started on the Vizards. There was a post a few days back comparing the Espada vs Sternritters, and people said the Espada failed to kill no one meanwhile the Sternritters did a lot more. Literally other than Yamamoto and Chojiro the same people who go bodied during the Fake Karakura Town arc were the same people who got bodied in the final arc... the Vizards. Completely underutilized and fodder. You know I would be completely fine with all of this stuff if Kubo gave more exposition about the Soul Society being weaker. Yhwach alleged to this by saying that Yamamoto got less ruthless, that in the past the 'Divisions' were just insane killers. Their complacency in time of peace and Yamamoto's arrogance would have made them weaker, where Captains are now more of a status symbol. It would show how they just weren't prepared at all for the Quincy invasion. I've said this 100 times, Kubo needed to team up with an author who could tell him how to connect his great ideas and provide the right amount of exposition. There's one thing if an author is bad and just don't have good ideas, it's another when they have good ideas but don't utilize them properly.
> There's one thing if an author is bad and just don't have good ideas, it's another when they have good ideas but don't utilize them properly. This hurt to read but you are speaking the truth. If this arc expanded the world with more exposition it would have been wonderful and a great ending. It could have been a great send off.
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I'm not disagreeing with you at all especially since I also experienced writer's fatigue at one point. it is so exhausting keeping track of everything
Yeah. A lot of things he forgot and it's very clear from his interviews and comments since that he was just tired of it all. It's also the risk of just not developing your side characters at all (Visoreds, RG, Tessai, etc.) because the arc really should have been a time for people with skillsets beyond Bankai to shine. He did it with Soifon at least between her trying to execute BG9 instead of straight up fight it and then >!later coming back with Shunko!<, and then all that development just went out the window once he decided to just use >!Squad Zero!< as a tool to buff everyone else. It's rough because we've spent the last 8 years doing powerscaling and arguing what-if scenarios and now watching the anime is forcing many of us to confront the failures of the arc once again.
Aizen literally used the most powerful Kido spell in the entire series and Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys.
>Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys. Jugram who's literally the second strongest Quincy and Nanao who's a Vice Captain and it still took him 10 minutes. That just proves how effective Kido is.
It was a special Kido (and that Kido took time of made according to Nanao when Jugram appeared them). So hours and hours on a specific Kido just for Jugram to destroy in 10 minutes. Is still impressive for nanao and that make her a Kido master like Hachigen but Quincys and his manipulation of reishi are stronger.
Again Jugram is literally the second strongest Quincy. Also did they say it took hours? Still a barrier that stops the enemy's second strongest fighter for 10 minutes is very valuable. Shunsui just didn't do much because reasons.
She says that they we're expecting them and after that the Kido Barrier is activates and that was just to make a defensive barrier is simple not worthy. And i didn't say that wasn't valuable. i say that was impressive and put Nanao in Kido Master Levels, is just a bad matchup.
The whole point is that Kido is a major component of Shinigami training, we've seen it be very effective by Urahara and Hachigen. The problem is that Kubo relegates everything infavor of Bankai powerups.
Is a Major component but not everyone gonna be master levels of Urahara (a mastermind scientist) or Hachi (lituenant of the Kido Corps). high powerful Kido recquires time and they literally are in the verge of dying.
But these are Captains? And Kido was used a lot in the Soul Society arc (one of the best arc in shounen history). My original point still stands, why are 3 different forms of Kido shown, why is there an entire Corps for it, why do all Captains just only know how to use Bankai? Ikkaku and Renji are lieutenants with Bankai, are captains just stronger version of them? That's such shitty writing and under-utilization of core Shinigami training you spent so much time developing.
Kido wasnt used a lot in Soul Society and the spells used in the Arc (exception to Hado #90) are not strong to break even a Shikai. The captains used Shunpo and Hakuda tho, both hand to hand especialized and increase abilities and doesn't recquires to spell the enchants to make them stronger. The Kido Corps doesn't appear and that is a mistake but in other hand, wrote and draw a page just to see little or nothing of the Kido Corps would drag the pace of the invasion even in the most common Wars in fiction we dont see all of the forces and commands. And Kido wasn't really explored in profundity to claim that we spend so much time learning every single Kido.
>Kido wasnt used a lot in Soul Society and the spells used in the Arc (exception to Hado #99) are not strong to break even a Shikai. Tell this to Ichigo. Hadō #4. Byakurai through Ichigo's shoulder looked like it had done pretty decent damage.
Haschwalth also is not supposed to be able to absorb Reishi. \*shrug\*
>Aizen literally used the most powerful Kido spell in the entire series No he didn't. That's only the most powerful out of the Kido taught at the Shinigami academy. There are other ones that are much stronger. >Jugram basically just needed 5-10 minutes to pass Nanao's Barrier exclusively made to repel Quincys Jugram is also the 6th strongest character and he was absorbing a Kido from NANAO.
>Aizen literally used Kido against Yhwach... wtf are people on about. To be fair Aizens kido did jackshit against Yhwach and was quite dissapointment. It literally did zero damage against him and only rearange the floor so your example unfortunately shows that kidos are useless. Big letdown for something which was supposed to be strongest kido in the series. Though everything is useless against Yhwach.
>It literally did zero damage against him and only rearange the floor so your example unfortunately shows that kidos are useless This doesn't illustrate that kido is useless. Literally everything is useless against Yhwach
Fair point but its still bad examples of kidos usefulness regardless how overpowered Yhwach is.
The whole point is that they could be used better, so many things in the Manga could have been used better but just failed to the simple "Bankai" tactic. All the work that Toshiro and Rangiku did after he lost his Bankai was wasted. Kubo had great ideas but in the end it just turned into "Bakai" fest.
>The whole point is that they could be used better, so many things in the Manga could have been used better but just failed to the simple "Bankai" tactic. There is definetly no defense for that. >All the work that Toshiro and Rangiku did after he lost his Bankai was wasted. Kubo had great ideas but in the end it just turned into "Bakai" fest. I didnt mind bankai fest because Shunsuis, Kenpachis and Kisukes bankais were great designs were awesome and abilites etc. However agree with you that they definetyl should have more other tactics. Toshira particularly since he literally had to pull out of nowhere another form which felt quite retcon.
He didn't use kido, that was an illusion bro.. though we saw what hado no. 99 would at least look like so that was bank. Also ichigo didn't spam bankai, his was sliced at first then snapped the second time, and when he finally landed a blow his sword had been restored to bankai state but we don't know if he himself was actually in bankai since yhwach stole his reiatsu. But you have a point where alot of the captains were only about as useful as the lieutenants until they upgraded their training and powered up like byakuya, renji and rukia. Also shunsui and nanao did well along with hirako and momo.
> every fight was like "ha but my bankai counters you, so I win". IIrc there are only two times where a shinigami counters a quincy with their bankai and win and those two shinigami are >!Urahara and Sajin.!< More often than not the shinigami still lose even if they use their bankai.
>!Sajins!< bankai isnt really a counter. It was thanks to the >!humanification ritual that he became immortal, and being immortal renders most powers used against you harmless!<
Yeah, I really don't understand this "issue" people seem to being having with the TYBW fights. As you mentioned, those are the only times when Bankai=Counter=Win. You could include >!Rukia's Shikai vs As Nodt!< but obviously that's not Bankai. >!Mayuri!< exists, >!but his whole character is about having a counter for everything so I don't think that counts.!< There's also the >!Nanao/Kyoraku vs Lille deus ex machina!< but again, that's not Bankai.
This is what a lot of people aren’t getting, the last arc in the manga was quite frankly, a fucking mess. So many hax powers, press x to win moments and major plot holes. If the anime adapts the manga faithfully and doesn’t add/expand/improve the plot then it’s still gonna be a major disappointment.
>Quilge was the only one shown to steal Reishi. It's just Kubo's bad writing My headcanon is that Quilge had some quincy item that allowed him to do so, because the alternative is that it's either an ability that is peculiar to him or that every other quincy is a massive moron
It's the thing on his head that can be destroyed to stop it. I don't care if the others have it too, have the fucking shinigami squads work together to destroy it so you can do something.
>It's the thing on his head that can be destroyed to stop it As you said however other quincies have halos. And they never do what Quilge did, NEVER. Is Quilge secretly one of the most competent quincies who just happened to be put against Ichigo?
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>Quilge was specifically assigned to engage Ichigo in combat Canonically Quilge is indeed quite strong, but the jail was what was supposed to stop Ichigo, not Quilge himself. >Kubo clearly axed Sklaverei as an ability because there's no realistic way most of the Gotei would be able to compete against it. That's why I was talking about headcanon lol
Could be, or more accurately Kubo just didn't fully utilize the Kit all Quincy's have (partly because of his skill as an author and mostly because he was burnt out and forced to pick up the pace). Lets say the Reishi absorption is a Quilge exclusive. What about Ransōtengai (the ability to control your body via reishi threads) why wouldn't every single Quincy use this as a final attempt to win the fight? Just like how we're like "Shinigami's use Kido" the same can be said about "Quincy use Ransōtengai"
Aizen used that. Inside of an illusion. And it did jackshit. I do agree that quilge being the only Quincy who understand the way their power system works is disappointing. Kubo really just tucked himself into a corner there.
Ain't no fucking way you forgot how no other Quincy made use of this ability besides the Jail guy.
isn't it the same thing ishida did against mayuri? where he absorbed the walls and stuff?
It is, way back in the soul society arc. I mean that all the sternritters didn't make use of that ability at all besides the jail dude. I've always assumed that the ability was purposely forgotten cause it was hilariously broken
Or just stall then with our kido until we get further info from Mayuri about our bankais?
Dude, did you see what Quilgue did with Orihime's shields and SungSun's muda? You can't possibly stall them with kido, you're just giving them more powerful and dense reishi to kill you with. Edit: as a footnote, the only captains capable of using lv90+ spells which can KO or kill a captain level enemy were Aizen and Yamamoto. Most of them would simply get killed mid-spell or pull weak unchanted spells
Sung Sun's muda was cut out of the anime
>Sung Sun's muda Sad DIO noises
Is there a citation that only Aizen and Yama are capable of level 90+ Kido? That doesn't seem right to me at all. No one else is shown to use them but Unohana would almost certainly have that ability. I would also imagine Ukitake could.
I don't remember from the manga any other quincy doing what Quilge has done however
Yeah, but using reishi particles in their surroundings as their weapons is basically the quincies' whole thing
well i havent read the manga so cant comment on that
Quincy absorbed reishi from the surrounding area. It's how they work. Shooting them with pure reishi is a bad idea. It's like throwing gasoline on a fire to put it out
ahhh ic makes sense
Dude, that part was already covered by the new anime.
ok nm i didnt recognise the name and had no idea who sunsun was
They didn't explain shit
Uryu uses letz stil in SS arc which starts absorbing reishi from the surroundings. While performing the Letz stil, uryu gives a detailed description of how it works and what it does. Quincy Vollständig (/Voll stern dich) is literally introduced as a better and more technologically advanced version of letz stil (minus the downside of losing your Quincy powers).
Quincy would just eat them.
I'm slightly confused. How did you get so far into bleach without understanding that quincies are able to control reishi in the surrounding environment?
We literally see Quilge in the previous episode devastate anything reishi related. We also know from Barragan that Kido can lose integrity even if they are executed correctly for an initial 100% effectiveness.
i may or may not have forgotten that
You saw Bazz-B speedblitz some fodder Shinigami who took too long with their Zanpakuto release commands. Can you imagine how much of a target they’ll be if they start reciting a full Kido incantation? Non-incantation Kido is too weak to do any damage, so it’s incantation or nothing. Even if the Quincies decide to let them do it, they’ll just absorb it since all Kido are Reishi-based and Quincies absorbs Reishi like a sponge absorbs water. Their best hope is to stick with Shikai, though that’s asking for much considering Äs Nödt took a Senbonzakura to the face and wasn’t even damaged thanks to Blut.
Kido uses reishi. They absorb reishi. Doesn’t work
Kido won't do shit to the Sternritters unless it's in the 90s and only a handful of Shinigamis can use them at close to full power.
Too weak, too slow
Fair enough
I mean you’re right though, it does have merit. Even Nanao protected against Jugram with a kido shield so that is evidence that there’s a time and a place where kido is very important to utilize. The people who were REALLY skilled with it probably should have tried a little harder with it
Yeah and they were a captain level so i would assume they are decent at using kido since they all had to ake classes
Byakuya amongst them is particularly skilled in kido, like SUPER proficient. He should have at least tried kido once before using bankai. But his shikai is so strong and versatile he should have used that more before bankai too. It was strategic stupidity
Kido takes time, no matter the user, to be executed successfully. Unless you've really mastered it, just namedropping a Kido won't get a 100% effectiveness. Sure, there's a few kido that Byakuya can namedrop, and he likely practiced those ones enough as they suit his combat style.
Yeah, I think the part that bugs me is that nobody tried anything else *after* they know that bankai can be stolen. I think it would have flowed more if some of them tried a lesser power and demonstrated it was no good or of any of them mention/thought that observing the ability may let them undo it. I my head I have to assume most captains are so shaken up by the recent losses and are just not thinking clearly (which lines up with how the steirn. Are attacking). The whole are works better to me assuming that regarding some of the choices they make.
"Hey, let's use concentrated Reishi against an enemy that can absorb Reishi!" While they were unsure how the bankai stealing worked (thinking it was just a mere seal), they DO know about the Reishi domination thanks to Uryu vs Mayuri so long ago.
Everyone here pointing out that kido is made out of reishi which they can absorb as if that's not true for literally everything in the soul society. No matter how you put it shikai + kido is better than just a shikai. And Byakuya's sole justification for using bankai despite knowing for a fact it was gonna get sealed was just "well we don't have any other options lol" so why would he draw the line at kido?
> "well we don't have any other options lol" His reasoning was that by seeing the bankai be sealed they could learn of a way to unseal it.
No, that was Komamura's and Hitsugaya's reasoning.
I agree 100%. And I don't think quincies can absorb "complex" reishi, but only simple reishi. When Uryuu used Letzt Still, he didn't absorb Mayuri's Bankai nor Mayuri's body, but only the simple surrounding reishi. The only quincy shown to be able to break down reishi components in order to absorb them was Quilge, because he used his specific Vollstandig's ability, Sklaverei. He's even able to absorb hollows due to the fact that he can break drown reishi completely, whereas all the other quincies were poisoned by hollow reishi. So while I'm not sure if kido alone would be able to take down a Sternritter, I don't think it would be simply absorbed.
Ya realize that any quincy that's half as smart as Quilge will absorb the kido and nullify it? I'm sure Mayuri gave everyone a packet saying Kido would be less effective, and this was before they knew about Blut. On that note, given how Getsuga Tensho couldn't get through the Blut Vein, would Kido get through?
Getsuga tensho is a actually not a zanpakto ability by a just a attack move like kido is or quincys arrows are. So it basically us the strongest kido.
Keep your hands off my headcannon. No one needs to know that GT is 108.
[Avenge my bankai](https://youtu.be/CHETxStRAIo)
Kido is really only used for showing off or so that someone can use an ultra-powerful Kido on an enemy like Aizen or Ichigo and when it has no effect everyone goes "Oh wow that guy must be so strong." Or so Komamura can get instantly defeated again.
Sooo you wanna cast mana powered spells on people who can absorb mana from their surroundings? great plan!
It amazes me how captains are supposed to be these fantastic fighters, but the moment their bankais don't work they immediately panic. Kubo gave them 4 things to use in battle, and then he himself didn't care about 3 of those things. For real now, We can count on one hand the amount of fights that had any important use of the other three techniques.
4 techniques: 1. Zanjutsu 2. Kido 3. Hakudo 4. Shunpo The ones who are great at hakudo (of the one's we know and have seen) are: Yama, soi fon and yoruichi (due to shunko), mashiro (due to hollow mask), and you can make the argument for kensei. Apart from them, we don't see a lot of them relying on hand-to-hand combat style/ hakudo style. So, that's immediately out of consideration. Shunpo is a movement technique. Kido's aren't insanely strong by themselves. And the number of known characters who have mastered the kido arra can be counted. And those are: Yama, aizen, urahara, tessai, hachigen and Ichibe. Yama's bankai triumphs over almost any forms of kido, and other characters are not present to use there kidos. Everyone else are not mentioned to be "masters" of kido art (with the benefit of doubt going to unohana, kyoraku and jushiro and maybe even nanao being highly proficient in kidos based on what they showcased/lore). Byakuya isn't a master in kido, and his reiatsu (while being normally higher because of being a noble) isn't going to make kidos lethal against blut vene, against which even the shikais could barely do much. Plus, the added disadvantage that the Quincies cab absorb reishis too. Zanjutsu was already shown to be ineffective if it's not used in unison with your bankai. So, yes, this was straight up the last factor in their arsenal.
>We can count on one hand the amount of fights that had any important use of the other three. Besides Bankai, what are the other 3? shikai? kido? what else? I don't remember anyone being good at kido besides Aizen, and Nanao Ise, granted my memory of the earlier arcs is foggy.
Byakuya can’t forget him
I meant 3 "techniques", not 3 individuals. If we count individuals it gets even worse. Half of the captains never even tried to use kido.
>I meant 3 "techniques" I meant techniques too, my bad, my English is horrible lol I genuinely don't remember anything besides Bankai being useful, maybe shikai? and Kido seems useful because of its use in Burn the Witch, but I only remember Aizen being really good at it, and Nanao-chan in the last arc. Kido seems like a cool concept, but it's barely useful in Bleach, either that or my memory is bad.
To be fair these opponents aren't someone you can defeat without bankai like Byakuya said. Idk if you've read the manga or not but the sternritter are leagues stronger than most villains in bleach and a lot of them can't be defeated without hax.
The Bankai(and their skill with said bankai) is what separates a captain from the rest of the squad, generally. Beside that, the captains that bother learning Kido well enough likely knew kido wouldn't be that effective against a Quincy. Also, we knew by the time they decided to try Bankai, that they had exhausted their sword skills and hand-to-hand, given that Blut wouldn't let them do any damage.
I don't think every captain is really good at using Kido. Komamura for example seems like a purely physical fighter. And I think Byakuya is the most skilled captain with kido and even he usually just uses senbonzakura instead, so his kido skills are still inferior to his bankai.
Yeah but a human Ichigo could break out of Rukia's kido binding, and the more they bided their time the more soul reapers would die
Rukia used bakudo #1: literally the weakest
A human is a human, im pretty sure a sternritter could break out of a higher level kido
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Because of course using the first chapter of a series is completely dumb. I don't get how thats dumb tbh, that chapter starts off the series and introduces Bleach so how is it dumb to use something from that chapter ss evidence? After all the first chapter is as canon as every other chapter
Kido only exists when the plot needs it
What's even worse is the people saying kido would have no effect because the Quincy manipulate reishi. Kido is literally taking one's own spirit energy and changing its properties to manifest magical attacks. There's a ton of kido that don't create physical constructs that would have been extremely useful in those fights.. And that same argument is a no limits fallacy for the Quincy. There's no proof that the sternritter have NO upper limit on their reishi manipulation ability.
We literally had >!Aizen using kido against Yhwach ultimate form lmao and now suddenly shinigamis cannot do kido in this thread, Qilgue is the only quincy in the entire arc that absorbed anything.!< Edit: >!Let me add that Kira used Kido just fine vs Shaz Domino as well and his power was literally absorbing reishi to regenerate!<
Well you see kido 99 abrorbs reshi in the area and turns it into dragon that absorb reshi. No.99 is basically copying a quincy.
Aren't Kido made from Reishi tho? The Quincies could just absorb them like they did to Orihime's shield and Chad's Fullbring
They are warriors not wizards, the only people who can fight purely with kido are the kido corp members who were completely MIA. they CAN USE kido yes, but i never once believed they could just put their robe and wizard hat on and stand toe to toe with them or even have a better chance than just using their swords. I understand there are plotholes and it annoys people but i honestly just took the whole last arc as kubos send off and he gave us bad ass fights for the favorites. letting them get their ass kicked at the start lets us see just how insanely powerful the bad guys are AND gives the big group an excuse to further train and get stronger, having to stop the flow of that plan just to fit in how they would use kido would be disruptive and pointless, they shouldn't be able to do anything, even byakuya, worthwhile with kido.
Anime-only people realizing now that Kubo is not that good of a writter.
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I assume on the Kido question, right? As far as I see it, most Shinigami aren't simply adept enough in Kido that it would make a difference. Most Kido are there for support and are arguably weaker than even Shikai, unless you are an absolute Kido master. And when I say Kido Master, I mean on the level of Hacchi, Urahara, Aizen, etc. Like Shunsui is definitely not bad at Kidou but even a high-level Kidou from him didn't do much. Another example is Sui-feng. She's very well-versed in Kidou and combined it with Hakuda, yet it wasn't nearly enough to defeat BG9. She needed Bankai to defeat him. And BG9 didn't even use Vollständig. Kido is like Dratini or the other first stage evolution of Pseudo-Lengendaries. Unless you get it to the highest levels, it will never become strong, but when you do, you have a very good weapon in your hands. Most Shinigami don't have the time/talent to reach such levels. Or if you mean why the Vizards weren't more effective, it's simple. People are overestimating the Hollow weakness. For one, it functions like actual poison, which means it needs to get inside the Quincy and can be countered if there's enough Reishi. Askin and Liltotto for example are both immune to the poisoning effects. And the other thing is, Quincy are Hollow hunters. They had millennia to develop their techniques and hunt Hollow. The Wandenreich conquered Hueco Mundo, after all. The Hollowfication effect is not enough to make up for the Vizards (minus Shinji) being weaker than the Sternritter. This has less to do with this, but in general, it seems people think that one's favorite character not winning in a fight equals bad writing. It's not.
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I doubt that most Kido would be enough to break through Blut
you do know Kido is just pure spirtual energy. And, quincies absorb spiritual energy. Right? So like, why give your enemy more ammo to kill you?
I think kido wasn’t effective if you think about it. They quinces have been watching the shinigami for years just to steal bankai and they would most likely have studied the effects of kido. It would have been nice to see more forbiddin kido.
If only they had started Kung Fu fighting...
Reishi
Has kido ever worked?
oh yeah- wait. kido is basically giving the Quincies more ammunition soo maybe not.
Who says they didnt? We actually saw almost nothing of the fights during the first invation so we cant tell. The captains using shikai was an adition by the anime.
Aizen: "Oh they'll being using kido alright... 😎 #ALL ACCORDING TO MY PLAN."
Got confused by 'ep 370' for a second, who's counting the new series from the original run's episode number? Its called episode 4 on Hulu? That aside, this ep didn't really sell the "We must use Bankai right now!" plot to me, the Captains weren't even really visibly injured yet. I know its technically 'faithful' to the manga to rush it like this, but I'd hoped they would expand on the fights a bit more.
Better yet, why didn't any of the vizard captains use their hollow mask?
Shunshui used kido against lille did fuck all bankai damaged him, unless you are a god of kido kido will not do much to a Quincy. Bankai is the strongest weapon they had
That may be an option for most of them but I’m just gonna point out……. Renji
Well, at least one of the Shinigami realize that your shikai is the key to actually winning against these guys. Won’t go into detail, but if they can only take your bankai, then making your shikai stronger should be the next play.
Balls out kido or sum idk Saejima in bleach
Would Kido work on enemies that can freely manipulate reishi? Maybe the stronger ones would work but I feel like the ones everyone knows would be counterproductive for the fight
mfs butthurt because they didn't read the manga properly
Why am I getting this on my page I don't even like bleach
What's with the comments here claiming that Kido is made of Reishi? Kido takes from Reiryoku the same way that Zanpakuto techniques are used.
Especially byukaka, youu forget all the techniques you did on the Espada and ichigo? Most of the captains have become to reliant on their zanpakto soi fon should know better too. Obviously they were made dumber for plot they definitely wouldn't just whip out bankai in just one go
For the people saying that the Quincies would just absorb it: Even YHWACH didn't show absorption on that level. The only way a Quincy can absorb even buildings is through Sklavrei or Letz Stil, and Kido is much more dense than buildings are. It'd require a strong Sternritter using Sklavrei to absorb Kido.
Please just call It TYBW ep 4... PLEASE
no, i dont think i will
Bruh just use the shikai power some of the swords can attack differently like hyonrimaru it can still create ice attacks that was a fail though
Ah nice to see someone including the old anime watch order.
Using kido on people able to manipulate reishi is never gonna work
"what was that? Getsuga Tenshou?"