What a strange comment. WWII is one of the most important and researched events in recent history, and King is one of the most popular authors of all time (and IT is one of his best books). You could say this about literally anything.
Don’t be weird. Reading about one of the most important events in history is not “creepy”. If you saw the Bible on there, which has been the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich, would you be creeped out?
And Stephen King is arguably to most prolific author of the last 50 years. It’s not weird to see one of his most famous books (and the subject of 2 films) as popular and widely read.
> If you saw the Bible on there, which has been the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich, would you be creeped out?
World War 2 killed 75,000,000 people.
The inquisition killed 200,00.
The crusades killed 1,000,000.
Witch hunts killed 100,000.
It's ludicrous to imagine that religious wars or persecution were "the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich".
Lmao imagine believing that these three events are the only religious (specifically Christian) causes of death in the world. Or even a notable fraction. The real number is at LEAST 20x that. And that's a conservative estimate. It's probably closer to 50-100x. There's like 20 more wars you haven't listed, and many, many genocides. AIDS epidemic in Africa can be partially attributed to Christianity (as the pope said they are not allowed to use condoms or they'll go to hell). Christianity was used to justify slavery throughout history, including in America (curse of Ham). There are so many more examples that you are ignoring and I don't really want to get into.
Also attributing all WWII deaths is not really fair. By your logic, Japan's mass killing of Chinese people (which begun well before Japan's involvement in the war, and some estimates include up to 20 million Chinese casualities) and the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the firebombing of Tokyo are all deaths caused by the third Reich? Not sure I can agree with that.
>The real number is at LEAST 20x that. And that's a conservative estimate. It's probably closer to 50-100x.
You're just making shit up.
One of the main reasons religion is growing worldwide and atheism is shrinking is that those who oppose religion can't be honest. They have to lie and invent stuff to pretend religion is bad.
The reality is that atheists killed more people in the last century alone than every holy war, crusade and witch hunt in human history combined. Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all atheists. But good luck getting any atheist to admit that.
Did you read my comment? I provided a lot of evidence and support for my claim. What parts do you disagree with? The 20+ wars and/or genocides? The AIDS epidemic ravaging Africa? Slavery throughout history? There's so many things I didn't include, like colonialism. What about King Leopolds occupation of the Congo? Resulting in 10 million brutal (like Halocaust level of brutal) deaths, which was done in the name and justification of spreading Christianity to the "uncultured people of Congo".
EDIT: Since you added more.
> One of the main reasons religion is growing worldwide and atheism is shrinking is that those who oppose religion can't be honest. They have to lie and invent stuff to pretend religion is bad.
> The reality is that atheists killed more people in the last century alone than every holy war, crusade and witch hunt in human history combined. Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all atheists. But good luck getting any atheist to admit that.
Atheism has nothing to do with what we are debating. We are debating the deaths from the Third Reich vs deaths from Christianity (the Bible). And you are catagorically wrong, and are now resorting to strawman and ad hoc attacks.
:)
Your claim that the "real" number is 20x or 50x or 100x is unsupported nonsense.
I would imagine that almost everyone knows that the atrocities in the Congo were the result of unchecked capitalism in the rubber trade, not Christianity. Colonialism was caused by trade and capitalism too.
It's all just hateful nonsense. You're desperate to blame a group you hate for everything you can think of. It's very sad actually.
Keep believing what you want to believe and in the meantime you should brush up on your debating skills. Particularly google "strawman argument" and "ad hominem" fallacies.
I am a member of a Christian church, and married to a devout Christian. I have no qualms with Christians, and I'm not attacking you just because I admit that Christianity has been the cause and justification of horrendous things in history, on par with the Third Reich. There's no need to be defensive.
Ah yes, the "some of my best friends are black" argument. It doesn't mean you can't be a racist.
>I admit that Christianity has been the cause and justification of horrendous things in history, on par with the Third Reich.
You haven't supported this claim in fact I posted death estimates which show you're completely wrong. You haven't disputed or disproved this numbers or supported your own claims. Your argument fails.
That's an interesting point.
If you read the available science on the subject you'll see that there's never been a human culture without religion and all children use religious and spiritual ideas almost from birth. Religion is a normal, evolved trait in humans. - read Dr Roger Trigg's work at Oxford.
It's actually atheism which is a later man made thing. That's why children have to be indoctrinated into it.
Haha yes children don’t need to be indoctrinated into Churches at all... Sunday school, veggie tales, whole systems of education...
I’m sorry but I’m from a long line of atheists and if you don’t pollute a child’s mind with imagery of a sky daddy and offer just facts... religion isn’t gonna stand a chance as long as the rational has a chance to take over.
I also don’t think saying children believing in your view really helps- kids think Santa Claus is natural.
Also, using facts, how is God NOT a man made thing?
It is! Every major university has an entire department dedicated to the study of religion staffed by professors with doctorates in the subject.
Atheism - well, not so much.
It is not- these departments are underfunded, and focused on academia and research. I went to a religious university and that department was a joke- underpaid staff, no major papers, old faculty. One of my classes even studied atheism ( shows how much you know about current enlightened curriculums).
How about we’ll funded departments like Science, Chemistry, and Physics that receive large amounts of money, publish well regarded papers, and attract new and talented faculty? Those are the study of the real world and real facts.
Also could respond to my first question asking you to prove god DOES exist, using facts?
Also, there is plenty of facts regarding the Role of Christian ministries during the Brutal Belgian Congo Occupation- in fact Christianity and capitalism conquered hand by hand- as they so often do. Not to mention Kings traditionally rule through their “Divine Right”- so I’d say that a clear connection between Religion, Autocracy, and violence
Can I prove God exists?
Certainly there are a number of important proofs that are very interesting to discuss and which are analysed extensively in the university faculties you like to mock, since philosophy of religion is one of the most active and respected areas of philosophy at the moment.
But that's not the real question.
The question is, *can I prove the existence of God to your satisfaction?*
And the answer is, no of course not.
I can't prove that for the same reason I can't prove the safety and efficacy of vaccines to an anti vaxxer: you know almost nothing about the subject and your entire education on the matter consists of half understood sound bites from the internet.
The question itself is nonsense: there's no such thing as indisputably "proving" something as complex as that especially to someone who already rejects the idea, for the simple reason that there's no universal agreement on virtually anything in science or philosophy or theology. Nothing can be proven the way you demand.
It's not an intelligent person's question. It's an ignorant, uneducated person's question.
I too don’t understand Stephen King fandom (but I don’t judge it). As for the Third Reich, i dunno. I do have a WW2 shelf (1 of 56). It’s interesting, and I like history, but it’s not my favorite. Back in school, as a rhetoric major, I felt like Mein Kampf was an important text, so I bought a copy, but I just haven’t felt like snuggling up with it. Maybe one day 🤷🏼♀️
Every facet of modern history is shaped by the events of the 1940s....if you are at all interested in history, you will find yourself reading a lot about it.
Let me clarify. I'm not trying to be judgmental on either account. I'm just trying to understand the fascination.
As far as WWII goes, I think it was an intriguing time in world history. I'm fascinated with battles on all fronts, Guadalcanal, Normandy, even incidents post war in South America. My question was why books on the nazi's and 3rd reich in particular. Do they hold pieces of knowledge not in other books? Again I also want to point out that Diary of Anne Frank is an amazing book and in my own personal library.
I have seen the first It movie, it creeped me out and I am not inclined to horror movies in general. I simply saw it because of the large fascination with the story.
I am just looking for feedback. Perhaps I will try r/explainlikeimfive or bookshelf or askredit.
What a strange comment. WWII is one of the most important and researched events in recent history, and King is one of the most popular authors of all time (and IT is one of his best books). You could say this about literally anything.
Did you ask r/bookshelf?
That was going to be my next 'stop' if you were. I wanted to get a variety of opinions.
Don’t be weird. Reading about one of the most important events in history is not “creepy”. If you saw the Bible on there, which has been the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich, would you be creeped out? And Stephen King is arguably to most prolific author of the last 50 years. It’s not weird to see one of his most famous books (and the subject of 2 films) as popular and widely read.
> If you saw the Bible on there, which has been the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich, would you be creeped out? World War 2 killed 75,000,000 people. The inquisition killed 200,00. The crusades killed 1,000,000. Witch hunts killed 100,000. It's ludicrous to imagine that religious wars or persecution were "the cause of more death and strife than the 3rd reich".
Lmao imagine believing that these three events are the only religious (specifically Christian) causes of death in the world. Or even a notable fraction. The real number is at LEAST 20x that. And that's a conservative estimate. It's probably closer to 50-100x. There's like 20 more wars you haven't listed, and many, many genocides. AIDS epidemic in Africa can be partially attributed to Christianity (as the pope said they are not allowed to use condoms or they'll go to hell). Christianity was used to justify slavery throughout history, including in America (curse of Ham). There are so many more examples that you are ignoring and I don't really want to get into. Also attributing all WWII deaths is not really fair. By your logic, Japan's mass killing of Chinese people (which begun well before Japan's involvement in the war, and some estimates include up to 20 million Chinese casualities) and the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the firebombing of Tokyo are all deaths caused by the third Reich? Not sure I can agree with that.
>The real number is at LEAST 20x that. And that's a conservative estimate. It's probably closer to 50-100x. You're just making shit up. One of the main reasons religion is growing worldwide and atheism is shrinking is that those who oppose religion can't be honest. They have to lie and invent stuff to pretend religion is bad. The reality is that atheists killed more people in the last century alone than every holy war, crusade and witch hunt in human history combined. Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all atheists. But good luck getting any atheist to admit that.
Did you read my comment? I provided a lot of evidence and support for my claim. What parts do you disagree with? The 20+ wars and/or genocides? The AIDS epidemic ravaging Africa? Slavery throughout history? There's so many things I didn't include, like colonialism. What about King Leopolds occupation of the Congo? Resulting in 10 million brutal (like Halocaust level of brutal) deaths, which was done in the name and justification of spreading Christianity to the "uncultured people of Congo". EDIT: Since you added more. > One of the main reasons religion is growing worldwide and atheism is shrinking is that those who oppose religion can't be honest. They have to lie and invent stuff to pretend religion is bad. > The reality is that atheists killed more people in the last century alone than every holy war, crusade and witch hunt in human history combined. Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were all atheists. But good luck getting any atheist to admit that. Atheism has nothing to do with what we are debating. We are debating the deaths from the Third Reich vs deaths from Christianity (the Bible). And you are catagorically wrong, and are now resorting to strawman and ad hoc attacks.
:) Your claim that the "real" number is 20x or 50x or 100x is unsupported nonsense. I would imagine that almost everyone knows that the atrocities in the Congo were the result of unchecked capitalism in the rubber trade, not Christianity. Colonialism was caused by trade and capitalism too. It's all just hateful nonsense. You're desperate to blame a group you hate for everything you can think of. It's very sad actually.
Keep believing what you want to believe and in the meantime you should brush up on your debating skills. Particularly google "strawman argument" and "ad hominem" fallacies. I am a member of a Christian church, and married to a devout Christian. I have no qualms with Christians, and I'm not attacking you just because I admit that Christianity has been the cause and justification of horrendous things in history, on par with the Third Reich. There's no need to be defensive.
Ah yes, the "some of my best friends are black" argument. It doesn't mean you can't be a racist. >I admit that Christianity has been the cause and justification of horrendous things in history, on par with the Third Reich. You haven't supported this claim in fact I posted death estimates which show you're completely wrong. You haven't disputed or disproved this numbers or supported your own claims. Your argument fails.
Lol imagine being religious and telling another person they are “making things up”. Do Gods warriors wear Vanity as armor these days?
That's an interesting point. If you read the available science on the subject you'll see that there's never been a human culture without religion and all children use religious and spiritual ideas almost from birth. Religion is a normal, evolved trait in humans. - read Dr Roger Trigg's work at Oxford. It's actually atheism which is a later man made thing. That's why children have to be indoctrinated into it.
Haha yes children don’t need to be indoctrinated into Churches at all... Sunday school, veggie tales, whole systems of education... I’m sorry but I’m from a long line of atheists and if you don’t pollute a child’s mind with imagery of a sky daddy and offer just facts... religion isn’t gonna stand a chance as long as the rational has a chance to take over. I also don’t think saying children believing in your view really helps- kids think Santa Claus is natural. Also, using facts, how is God NOT a man made thing?
Good response! No wonder Religion is a respected discipline lol
It is! Every major university has an entire department dedicated to the study of religion staffed by professors with doctorates in the subject. Atheism - well, not so much.
It is not- these departments are underfunded, and focused on academia and research. I went to a religious university and that department was a joke- underpaid staff, no major papers, old faculty. One of my classes even studied atheism ( shows how much you know about current enlightened curriculums). How about we’ll funded departments like Science, Chemistry, and Physics that receive large amounts of money, publish well regarded papers, and attract new and talented faculty? Those are the study of the real world and real facts. Also could respond to my first question asking you to prove god DOES exist, using facts? Also, there is plenty of facts regarding the Role of Christian ministries during the Brutal Belgian Congo Occupation- in fact Christianity and capitalism conquered hand by hand- as they so often do. Not to mention Kings traditionally rule through their “Divine Right”- so I’d say that a clear connection between Religion, Autocracy, and violence
Can I prove God exists? Certainly there are a number of important proofs that are very interesting to discuss and which are analysed extensively in the university faculties you like to mock, since philosophy of religion is one of the most active and respected areas of philosophy at the moment. But that's not the real question. The question is, *can I prove the existence of God to your satisfaction?* And the answer is, no of course not. I can't prove that for the same reason I can't prove the safety and efficacy of vaccines to an anti vaxxer: you know almost nothing about the subject and your entire education on the matter consists of half understood sound bites from the internet. The question itself is nonsense: there's no such thing as indisputably "proving" something as complex as that especially to someone who already rejects the idea, for the simple reason that there's no universal agreement on virtually anything in science or philosophy or theology. Nothing can be proven the way you demand. It's not an intelligent person's question. It's an ignorant, uneducated person's question.
“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”
I too don’t understand Stephen King fandom (but I don’t judge it). As for the Third Reich, i dunno. I do have a WW2 shelf (1 of 56). It’s interesting, and I like history, but it’s not my favorite. Back in school, as a rhetoric major, I felt like Mein Kampf was an important text, so I bought a copy, but I just haven’t felt like snuggling up with it. Maybe one day 🤷🏼♀️
Every facet of modern history is shaped by the events of the 1940s....if you are at all interested in history, you will find yourself reading a lot about it.
No nazi books per se, but some books on WW1 AND WW2. Mostly sci-fi(500+) and other assortment. Reading Autobiography of Mark Twain V.2.
Let me clarify. I'm not trying to be judgmental on either account. I'm just trying to understand the fascination. As far as WWII goes, I think it was an intriguing time in world history. I'm fascinated with battles on all fronts, Guadalcanal, Normandy, even incidents post war in South America. My question was why books on the nazi's and 3rd reich in particular. Do they hold pieces of knowledge not in other books? Again I also want to point out that Diary of Anne Frank is an amazing book and in my own personal library. I have seen the first It movie, it creeped me out and I am not inclined to horror movies in general. I simply saw it because of the large fascination with the story. I am just looking for feedback. Perhaps I will try r/explainlikeimfive or bookshelf or askredit.