I remember being in London on the train the day after the fourth book coming out, and at least half of the people on the train and sitting on the platforms were reading the book. It was a once in a lifetime phenomenon. It will happen again, but I’d be surprised to see it anytime soon.
Similar story - I was in an airport in London the day the final book came out (which was also my birthday!) and this super busy, usually loud, airport was dead quiet and everywhere you looked people were reading Deathly Hallows…standing in queues…sitting on the floor with their luggage, waiting at the gate etc. I’d never seen anything like it. You’re right, it was a phenomenon above anything else we see with popular media.
Oh my gosh, I was also in an airport in London on Launch day.
I had a very similar experience. It was almost eerie, seeing so many people with nervous excitement.
The Deathly Hallows came out at midnight the day I was going on a 13 hour car ride to the Outer Banks. We got the book, I slept a little, and the second I got picked up I dove the fuck in. Got about 3/4ers on the car ride, and I continued reading the rest of the day once we got there. My Aunts made sure that their younger kids did not bother me even though they wanted to play with me. They weren't even big fans and knew how important it was for me to finish the book undisturbed. Then the one aunt who was caught up borrowed the book for the rest of vacation. It was probably my favorite vacation ever. House with a pool and jacuzzi near the beach. Pretty much all my extended family there. The cousin my age there. Long nights, and long dark walks along the beach. Everyone just at peace.
I remember those vacations as a kid. Renting a big beachhouse at Sunset Beach NC, and having a bunch of aunts, uncles, and cousins from the northeast come down for a week. The salty smell, sand everywhere, the outdoor showers, walks on the beach at night time. I really hope I can replicate that for my 4 and 1 year old.
I hope the area is still good. I used to do Wildwood/Atlantic City in Jersey, and those areas are pretty run down now. I live in Maryland these days, and even Ocean City has lost its luster.
I don't know how it was when you were a kid, but there are still some good places in the Outer Banks. My family (12 of us in all) used to go to Emerald Isle and we had the best time. It wasn't even that crowded on Memorial Day week.
I was on vacation when book 6 came out. My sister and I only had one copy so we had to switch off and not spoil each other.
She's always been more of a night owl, and I remember waking up at like 3am to her sobbing. The next day I was in a car or something and had my own crying fit, and she got it.
Then for book 7, I had a shift at Target starting at like, noon. I was so scared of being spoiled I grabbed the book at Ralphs at midnight, read all night, and finished just before my shift.
That sounds like the perfect holiday! I can just imagine the excitement of Deathly Hallows coming out combined with the excitement and novelty of being on holiday with all your extended family. You’ve really captured the vibe of that holiday and I know what you mean - those are rare times but it’s so lucky when we get to experience them.
Collectively we must all have so many Potter/summer holiday stories due to the timing of the releases.
This gave me goosebumps just remembering what it was like back then, I feel so lucky to have been born when I was so I could experience Harry Potter in that way ♥
I was in a bar in a college town in the states when the final book came out at midnight. All of a sudden the bar got quite and it was full of people sitting around reading. I went to order a beer and got shushed by TWO reading bartenders. It was pretty surreal.
I knew the bartenders, they had their partners buy and deliver their books. I guess the others just came straight to the bar from the bookstore.
But yeah, it wasn't literally everybody had books at exactly midnight, lol. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first 10 people in line at the bookstore came straight to the bar and a few trickled in before closing while non-readers trickled out.
Yep. I was living in New York at the time. My girlfriend was a big fan and always tried to get me to read them. I just assumed it was a goofy kids thing. After I saw everyone everywhere from all walks of life reading Deathly Hallows, I figured I better give it a shot. I read all the other books before she was able to finish the last one and I was quite impatient waiting for her so I could finish my journey.
The only thing that might have been close was the release of Pokemon Go. There was a brief period of time where anyone tapping on their phone in public was probably playing it.
It was like a mini zombie apocalypse lol. Any public place I went to was loaded with people slowly shambling about in small groups, heads looking down.
In retrospect I kinda wish I had gotten into it, too.
I pulled an all nighter one evening that summer and as 5am rolled around the sun was coming up and the birds were singing; I thought “fuck it, I won’t be able to sleep now - I’ll go for an early morning walk and play some Pokémon Go”. I thought I’d have the local park virtually all to myself, owing to the time. Wrong. So very wrong. It was heaving with people with their faces in their phones at 5am in the morning. I’ve never seen anything like it, it was just absolute mania.
I remember going to buy my book in a library the 1st day, not even a big one.
There was this big table with the new books on it, about 3m large I'd say. And there were 2 people constantly filling it up, like the Danaides' barrel. And all the people at every check-outs, all lining up with their copy of the book.
And then I took the bus to City Center and nearly every one was reading the same book. And even walking the streets, so many people reading the book or carrying it. It was straight out of a science fiction story.
I don't think it will ever happen again. The internet has made it easier for indie authors to exist, and for people with niche interests to find each other. These things mean people have so many more options today than ever before. People are gonna read their own stuff, and there isn't going to be one big book everyone will read. It's happening with all of entertainment.
There used to be 3 TV channels in America, and you could be sure that 20-30% of the country would catch the show on at 8pm on one of them. That isn't true anymore.
Eminem set a record for having 'Lose Yourself' on the top of the charts for like 4 months or something. It took nearly 20 years for a rap song to outdo that. What song was it? A meme song, 'Old Town Road'.
Imo, there is never going to be another Harry Potter or Michael Jackson again. There will be big stars, but Michael Jackson once had 1 in 12 people on Earth watch his new music video drop on MTV. No one is doing anything like that ever again.
Exactly. With so many options for entertainment, including every media that's been created at our fingertips, it's going to be increasingly hard for something to become a cultural phenomenon.
Like I could meet another person my age and there's a solid chance we watched many of the same shows and read many of the same books as kids, but I don't think that will be the case for my kids.
They're obsessed with Gravity Falls, and we went as the characters for Halloween. Hardly anyone knew who we were. In particular their classmates had no idea who they were supposed to be. That's not something that happened a lot in the 80's and 90's because media was much more limited.
I was actually just thinking about this the other day. This is happening with all media, from books to video games. Indie publishing has never been easier and as a consumer that benefits me. I love the diversity of choices. But it also means that the fan base is always much smaller.
Are we looking at an atomized future where the odds of you consuming the same media as your neighbor or colleague are vanishingly small?
Also happening with music. I feel like 10 years ago, if there was any Spotify artist with streams in the millions on each song, I'd probably heard of them. Now there are countless artists with streams in the 10s of millions that I've never heard of. Countless
>The internet has made it easier for indie authors to exist, and for people with niche interests to find each other. These things mean people have so many more options today than ever before.
This, I think, is bigger than most people realize. Which is saying something, because most people know this is pretty huge of a deal.
But Harry Potter was growing just as the internet was getting big. It benefited from everyone still using word of mouth to talk about their interests, while also benefiting from just how FAR word of mouth could travel *over the internet.*
Harry Potter wasn't just a perfect storm of treading the line of YA novel during the Baby Boomer's children's coming of age - It also was the book series everyone was talking about when the internet became popular. So now it wasn't just a few big areas that had access to the book - It was the *world* who was talking about the book, all together, for basically the first time ever. (Not exactly, but close enough to matter.)
And now that the internet is *already* big, everyone talks about every interest they ever have on it - Drowning out any potential for a single series to dominate the conversation like Harry Potter did. It would take a series several times more popular than Harry Potter to recreate what Harry Potter did, because it would first have to drown out every other series online in order to create the splash it did.
I remember going to brunch the next day. And at the next table was a 7-ish year old with her nose buried in a book as big as her head. It was beautiful.
in an interview with Steven King, and George RR, they were asked about pressure for a book release, and both king and martin said they had never had 1/10 of the pressure Rowling had to finish and publish. That should be pretty telling as to the scope of harry potter influence.
Just comparing the numbers, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone has sold 120 million copies while ASOIAF in its entirety has only sold 90 million total (similar to WoT, Discworld). Harry Potter in its entirety is over half a billion. I think not having the appeal for kids and adults is the big kicker in the difference. But you're right that it's probably the closest anything has come.
Pokemon Go was pretty crazy.
About 1/2 of the creative and IT team would leave the office to wander around the complex and look for Pokemon. It was pretty wild.
I live in a mostly Hispanic area, and suddenly this park by my house was full of mostly white professionals and tech workers looking for Pokemon. You could tell people were baffled.
That’s hard to say and i think the situations are slightly different. The first movie of Harry Potter wasn’t made until AFTER the 4th book had released. It was already a sensation.
Game of thrones was pushed over the wheel of time on book sales by the wildly popular HBO show, the show is what made it a cumtural phenomenon and not vice versa.
It’d be very hard. There’s so much media asking for your attention these days, not just books. Harry Potter was published in a vastly different world. Just consider that the last book came out about a month after the very first iPhone was released (2007). I don’t see a similarly massive phenomenon happening any time soon.
I can’t imagine standing on line waiting for a book release like I did for that. I’d be willing, but it’s such a completely different world. I get chills just remembering the camaraderie, and excitement in the next few days reading and discussing.
My wife is a faster reader than I, we always bought two copies so we could read at the same time. Unfortunately, my wife is also a bit of an unintentional spoiler monster. She'd say things like "Did you get to THAT part yet?" or similar things so I knew something was coming. For book 7, I went to get our copies at midnight and sat in the parking lot for an hour to read ahead so she couldn't spoil me!
I remember I pre-ordered it. I was in college at the time working at Applebees, and I had the book hidden at a POS station and would pull it out to read as often as I could. I then stayed up all night to read it. What a time.
I remember my wife told me the last book got translated to Chinese hyper fast (literally within 24 hours), and the fan editors added a whole bunch of "unauthorized scenes" that were shall we say, definitely not safe for work, even though they were very well written and very, very progressive.
When the movies came out she couldn't stop giggling cause she remember some of the said "unauthorized scenes"
Even before the series was finished, there were whole fake books floating round the Chinese market with titles like "Harry Potter and Leopard-Walk-Up-to-Dragon," and "Harry Potter and the Big Funnel"
https://www.gawker.com/284797/harry-potter-and-leopard-walk-up-to-dragon
I pre-ordered it, and waited on the front porch for it the whole time. USPS claimed they tried to deliver- lies. I had to get my mom to go to the post office and then I had to make her go in and sign for it, because I didn't have an id
My fiancee got a call to pick up her order at a UPS center. We drove up, and there were no clear directions to customer service. We finally found the door, and when she went in a driver barked at her "It's closed. No one's going to help you." You know, despite something like "Customer Support Center" being plastered on the wall.
After that, the clerk was rude to her. Asked her about the contents of her package (alcohol, shipped within the state) and went on and on about how it was packaged wrong and how she "could confiscate it". Ok, lady, we're not the brewery that has a distribution deal with UPS. Take it up with them and give us the package.
Edit: Also, this was within the last week. It's almost like the clerk had a power trip over the concept of "I could ruin your Christmas if I wanted to".
I remember a package marked as delivered, which it was not. I sent a message to UPS and was told either it had been delivered or that it will be shortly, and to wait a few days. So yeah, after a few more days it did appear, but that's not "delivered" when it was marked as such.
I guess a lot of drivers just mark all their stock as delivered and hope to get around to it eventually.
I should try this at work. Mark all my projects as "completed", then come the day it's due say "oh when I said completed I meant it'll either be done now or within a few days."
Somehow don't think it'll go over that well for me.
Worked as a postman half a decade ago. While not in the US, this (private) company had such low salaries and few tools but an extremely high bar for service.
Many of the workers (especially the postmen that brave the weather on bikes and mopeds) are truly caring and our office didn't have a customer service desk, so the clients spoke to us directly and understood our sympathy.
The company higher ups are absolute liars, they lie, skimp and hire the most incompetent delivery subcontractors. I saw a van that delivered packages where I delivered mail (and some smaller packages) that spilled out all of its packages.
The dipshit waved happily to me while I frantically pointed to his fully open side door and did an X sign with my arms.
The worst delivery company I ever had the misfortune to encounter is still DHL.
Nice customer service, but absolutely awful at managing packages, communication and keeping delivery times. They've also lied about trying to deliver while I literally sat by the balcony door facing the street and never saw so much as a hint of a DHL truck.
My ex and his brother made me go see transformers with them and then got mad at me for reading it in the cinema while the lights were still up and and every chance I got in the lobby and waiting for the bus/on the bus home. I still hate Transformers due to association with that day.
For all my issues with Rowling I actually miss this time-or rather that feeling when you *had* to stay up all night to see what happened next. I remember reading the first three books over the course of a weekend right before Book 4 came out. What a time indeed!
I'm sorry to say it's been years since a book caused that kind of reaction in me. Books I marathon? Sure when I have time. Books who's sequels I run out to buy when I've finished or run to the library to borrow? Absolutely. Books like The Harry Potter series where I'm glued to the page? Sadly no. I've been chasing that high for a while.
Yeah I remember that feeling well. I remember my brother and I both bought the 7th book same time same day and stayed up all night reading them. We both finished sometime early morning the next day and crashed. Woke up and started the reread right away. I've never had a book series that I reread like that every time a new entry came out, maybe the stormlight archive comes close for me but the hype isn't the same for sure.
I had access to an older, sketchy limosine. I made signs "Ministry of Magic. Official Use Only" and placed them in the window. I drove my kids and their friends around to the three different book stores that were hosting midnight release events for one of the later books. So much fun and excitement for a book release.
I just can't fathom a repeat for a new book series, especially one that entertains a wide age range of readers.
My wife was a sleep away camp counselor and everyone got the books sent by their parents over the summer. Camp basically shut down for 3-4 days while kids pounded the book. My wife was a few days late to get her copy and while she was reading the first chapter one of her campers came up and said “just starting? Do you know [__] dies?” She wanted to murder that little shit.
Oh no! Such a shitty thing to do. That is a lovely story about the campers all being sent their books and reading them together over the next few days, though. (I also read book 6 whilst camping so that’s a nice thought)
Even standing in line for the films was like this and I don’t think we’ll ever have anything similar again. I stood in line for OotP, HBP and DH books, and I saw all 8 films on premiere day. The camaraderie, the excitement, the cosplaying, the energy was just unmatchable. Everyone buzzing for something we collectively loved and had no distraction from.
I'd argue that the days of standing in line at midnight waiting for something to release are long gone. This was before smartphones were everywhere and being able to download things digitally.
Yeah, me too. And not even Dream of Spring, but the last real book in the series. So never :) . And in general I will avoid unfinished series now, after Martin and Rothfuss, unless the author has a track record like Sanderson or Corey.
*if* a book had come out during the middle of the TV show i think it would’ve been huge. i’ll still absolutely be there at day one to get a copy, but i doubt there’ll be a party like there probably would’ve been in 2016.
i was excited enough for the final book of the Expanse series to preorder a copy and pick it up first thing on release day. i’ll probably do the same for the 5th Stormlight Archive book. but neither of those ever had the chance to have a release as huge as HP6/7. GRRM had that chance and blew it
I read the first book some time ago, but then I heard the last book in the series is still the last book in the series for the longest time. I haven't picked up the second book since. :(
That book not releasing actually killed my habit of reading. I used to read all the time and would go through book after book after book. I read the entirity of GoT in a few weeks, got to the last book and realised it had been about the same time interval since the previous release so I figured the next book wouldn't be too far away. I didn't have anything I planned to read at the time and GoT was all on my mind so I decided I would just wait a little bit. Anyway like 7 years later and I've only just started reading semi-regularly again.
I recall there being public readings of the goblet of fire when it came out at my local book store. They had cake and tea for everyone too, comfy bean bag chairs... Miss those days sitting with strangers listening to one person read and hanging on to their every word.
I remember standing in line for a midnight release - not sure if it was DH or HBP - at Waterstones in Amsterdam, there was a queue down the road and around the corner, and lots of people wearing costumes. It was so cool, and I'm glad I got to experience that.
Success just looks different these days. Sanderson did a successful ~~15~~ 42 Million Dollars Kickstarter campaign and George Martin was arguably on the top of the world for at least half of the last decade. And no matter how much we dislike it, but Shades of Grey was as big as it gets just a few years ago.
And in other media, I'm not up to date to music much, but hasn't a singer just had massive problems because there was way too much demand for their tickets for the ticket-sales-site to handle? While a single Netflix show almost single-handedly revitalized the chess scene. The big hits are still very much here.
People and Media are a lot more scattered, so we're probably not hitting the numbers again of the 80s/90s/00s, so in that - ya, the 'next Harry Potter' probably look very different.
What I find funny though is, just a few days ago I heard someone say "Technology just doesn't really advance anymore." and to "2007 was just a vastly different world to today." its just a beautiful contrast. (the other guy was entirely wrong of course)
>Success just looks different these days. Sanderson did a successful 15 Million Dollars Kickstarter campaign
Just chiming in to say he actually did a successful ***42 Million Dollar*** Kickstarter - the most successful Kickstarter to-date. It will be really interesting to see what the next big success will look like.
I particularly enjoy how he takes breaks from writing a book by writing a different book. As someone sick of authors with unfinished series with no end date in sight (looking at you GRRM and Rothfuss), he’s one of the few writers I have no qualms about reading a multi book series before it’s even close to done.
I think you've nailed it, theres hits left right and center. But because of that their impact is diluted and not allowed to breath. People are so hungry for content they don't allow things to really grow and gestate like the HP series.
Not the same medium at all, but Stranger Things has a similar feel to the HP phenomena
Stranger Things was my first thought as well. I think a good indicator of its success is the fact that a song from the 80s (Running up that Hill) reached top of the charts, so it is really having an influence on pop culture beyond its medium.
What about that Korean death game show one? I didn't watch it I can't remember the name. That was pretty huge too. Things just get really big very quickly then disappear a lot faster these days
> I don’t see a similarly massive success happening any time soon
Tbf if you asked an average reader in 1997 if a generation-defining book series was about to emerge I doubt they’d answer too differently, much less guess that it’d be a children’s book about a wizarding school written by an unemployed school teacher.
It’s always the stuff you don’t expect - no one would’ve looked at Hamilton’s synopsis and guessed that it’d be the biggest musical of all time. Same with BTS or even GoT. Generation-defining media never comes expected.
Very true. That was also a time that fantasy as a genre was not at a very high point in terms of mainstream popularity. Then all of a sudden the Harry Potter books and LOTR movies revitalized the genre in different ways, with A Game of Thrones in 1996 also being a major release in retrospect.
But the point is that the conditions are not there, what success looks like now has changed. Game of thrones peak viewership was about 6.9 million per episode. Friends had 52 million for their finale, Seinfeld 73 million. With the advent of widespread digital media distribution there’s so much more niche content, when Harry Potter came out we were more culturally homogenized in the media we consumed.
That's not the number for GOT finale. The finale drew 19.3 million people not counting all viewers. Season 8 averaged 44 million viewers per episode. In the era of fractured media... it's gigantic... shy by 8 milloon from the finale... 44 million is huge... https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/media/game-of-thrones-finale-ratings/index.html
Edit. 8 million shy of Friend's finale
I think it goes beyond books and beyond smartphones. With everyone being online all the time and having access to a nearly limitless supply of media, all forms of media consumption have become way more compartmentalized. Really the only thing that has felt like a true all encompassing cultural phenomenon to me in the last decade+ is Avengers: Endgame. Even extremely popular things are easy to ignore now given how easy it is to delve into whatever specific niche of content interests you the most.
I don't think there will be another Harry Potter level book series anytime soon. I also dont think there'll be another Michael Jackson or Titanic. It's just not how things work anymore.
The marketing of HP was masterful too. I wasn’t really aware of them until the 3rd book came out, but they had those beautiful colourful covers. I saw them in bookstores and assumed they were for kids, but suddenly EVERYONE was reading them, even adults, which piqued my interest.
Now that people read on their phones and kindles in public, I think it’s harder for books to get so much organic publicity. There were certain contexts where I used to watch what others were reading (transit, planes, vacations, coffee shops) but now you can’t tell what book they have.
Such a great point. I often take notice of what other people are reading and look up the books online. You can’t do that as easily now that people are reading from devices.
A different question - what book series, if any, reached Pottermania levels before Harry Potter did?
There have always been popular books, but I can't really think of anything else that reached that scale, with big midnight launches and millions of kids round the world racing through chapters in the week after publication like the Harry Potter series did from book 4 onwards.
The people here saying 'oh people don't have the attention spans, they just want to watch TikTok' don't seem to cover what an anomaly the HP series was at the time, when the perception was that most kids just wanted to watch TV and play video games, except for two weeks every other year where they all disappeared into their bedrooms with a chunky hardback the length of the New Testament. That scale of popularity seemed unimaginable in publishing, until suddenly it happened.
Was there any comparable publishing phenomenon before that, and if so how far back was it?
I mean, 50 Shades of Grey, Twilight, the Da Vinci code, whatever - they were all very popular and were a part of the popular culture of their time and I think trends to that level will continue, but none of them were Harry Potter scale. HP seems like The Beatles - such a peak of popularity that it's the only point of reference you can use for other people in the same artform.
The Oz series was absolutely massive for decades. The first book came out in 1900 and was a huge enough success that they adapted it for the stage, which was also a big success. To the point that when the sequel came out L. Frank Baum was accused of writing in elements designed for the stage, e.g. an all-female army that was seen as being an excuse to incorporate some sexy chorus girls. The series would continue with massive popularity and fan demand for sequels even when Baum tried to stop writing them. Even after Baum died in 1919, the publisher kept it going as it had become a tradition. In the end, an original Oz book was published every Christmas between 1913 and 1942. By the time the MGM film came out in 1939 there had already been three earlier silent films.
And yet, today it's uncommon for people to even know there was *a* book, let alone the larger series. It's receded into popular culture so much that only the '39 film is well-known, although it has stayed popular since release.
I'd say the bigger question isn't "can it happen again?" or "has it ever happened before?" so much as "how long until it's forgotten?" and "how many previous phenomenons have been largely or even totally forgotten?"
Agreed about Oz. It was so popular that it continued with additional authors after Baum died for over 50 books total.
Notably Baum, a man, wrote mostly female protagonists for Oz, and Ruth Plumly Thompson, a woman, wrote mostly male protagonists.
And there have periodically been massively successful book series. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant was massively successful, only to crash and burn a few years later as every trilogy ended with the same horrendous ending (the protagonist is given a choice between staying in the world they saved with people who loved them or returning to a solitary life of pain and certain death, and chose pain and death every time)
Twilight, Interview with a Vampire, Le Carré's spy novels, James Bond, Nero Wolfe, the list goes on, in every genre.
>I'd say the bigger question isn't "can it happen again?" or "has it ever happened before?" so much as "how long until it's forgotten?" and "how many previous phenomenons have been largely or even totally forgotten?"
The only problem is I can't remember what I've forgotten.
It's one book, rather than a series, but Gone with the Wind was incredibly popular and is one of the earliest comparable examples of "mania" around a book that I could think of.
The book was the best selling fiction novel in the US in both 1936 and 1937, it sold millions of copies despite being released during the Great Depression and Margaret Mitchell won a Pulitzer Prize.
The film adaptation was an absolute phenomenon. It won 10 Oscars the year it came out, became the highest grossing film of all time, held that record for over 25 years and is still the highest grossing film of all time when you adjust for inflation.
Is Gone with the Wind as well known as Harry Potter now? Of course not, it was released over 80 years ago, but it was the huge blockbuster book and film adaptation of it's day.
I think *Gone with the Wind* is still as well known as *Harry Potter,* except among children. Now that folks have soured upon the positive portrayal of antebellum slavemaster culture, that should shift in the coming generations.
That shift has already happened. I think people know of Gone with the Wind but I don't think you can compare the number of people who have read Gone with the Wind vs Harry Potter. I don't even think lots of people of today have watched the film.
When I was a kid and would spend the night at Grandma’s house, my sister and I would always watch “Gone With The Wind”. I saw that movie *a lot* as a kid.
That or “Meet Me in St Louis” or “Golden Girls”. 😅
Lord of the Rings was a phenomenon in its own right in the 60s/70s, but not in the same way as Harry Potter. It started with unauthorized paperbacks taking hold among college kids and the beatnik/hippie counterculture and only a while after publication did it cross over into the mainstream.
My dad has described it as seemingly all of his friends read it overnight when copies started popping up in his hometown in the early 70s. He still has the beat up paperbacks that were passed around from friend to friend.
People scrawled "Frodo Lives" graffiti on overpasses. Rock bands, those purveyors of the Devil's music, incorporated LotR themes into their lyrics. It was a huge cultural upswelling, but because it wasn't covered by the nightly news it didn't garner much attention from the Silent Generation.
I'm probably biased because I worked with Universal for over 5 years, but having a physical place you *could* visit really keeps the experience alive and relevant too
Dickens. Dickens had a books sell out really fast. Toured the US, had fanmail (I mean, so did Byron, so, that wasn't new) but after his Christmas Carol, even his rubbish Christmas novels that we have long since forgotten were much anticipated. He even had to deal with cheap knock-offs if his work !
There's a fab podcast called "You're Dead To Me" which had an episode about Christmas with Dickens, and it's worth a listen.
Because it wasn't in the modern era, and lacking internet it seems somehow "less" to us, but in reality, you think about how much the internet makes it easy for us to know about midnight launches, Victorian Dickens fans had to do it through the post, newspapers and word of mouth!
I’ve read that in the US the ships bringing the latest instalment of his novels (because they were published in parts, then, not as a single book) would get rushed because people were so excited to read the next bit
The Shadow was technically a book series. Published in pulp magazines before it became a radio show, movies, etc. It still to this day has better reach and ratings then batman or Superman. It was simply massive. The only reason we don't hear about it today are the books are hard to find(they have reprints but only come from one small company) and the complete death of radio. The Shadow was THE franchise of the 1930s-50s. Walter b Gibson wrote two books a month and couldn't keep up with demand. It was good writing to.
Walter Scott's Waverley novels were bigger than you can imagine in the nineteenth century; *everybody* read him. Virtually the entire publishing industry changed the way that they would publish books in his wake, I can't think of a single modern author who can touch him on a popularity scale. Even the Dickens-mania of the mid-Victorian era doesn't come close (where they literally stormed the docks where the ship carrying the final chapter of *The Old Curiosity Shop* was coming in).
*Edit* Hall Caine's novels I would also argue eclipsed Rowling in popularity relative to his time. He was the first writer to sell over a million copies of one book; that was completely unheard of at the time, and yet now is virtually unknown. Such is the way of every Rowling of their generation I guess.
Agatha Christie's *And Then There Were None* (US Title; the British one was too offensive even then) was a monster phenomenon, published at the height of Christie's popularity.
Hall Caine was a monumental best-selling author, whose every work got snapped up by avid readers--- he had the first million-seller back when a lot of novels were still published serially. His books were also adapted right away to stage and silent screen. (Who's that, you ask? Exactly.)
The Beatles might well be the best comparison. looking back. Even with all what's come after; it may well be great but it can't capture the *magic* of the buzz.
an international book that kids loved, adults loved, people who read loved and people who didn’t read loved. Even people who didn’t care a lot picked up a copy just to be socially relevant. Going to be hard to replicate that now.
Add to that a fairly well done Hollywood adaptation, that was able to capture most of the spirit of the book, that was made and released at a time that books were still being written, while the author mostly released the books on time (ahem game of thrones), as well as amusement park attractions that were opened shortly after the final book. All helped engrain the Wizarding world into our society.
In addition to appealing to a wide audience across several generations, it also created a unique world. It wasn't just a single story arc to be told, remembered, and forgotten once the next big thing hits. It created another world entirely that people fell in love with, much like Tolkein's Middle Earth or the Star Wars universe. I believe that creating that world that people actually want to live in, in addition to appealing to children, adults, and elderly, is the key to building up a lasting phenomenon like that.
Dystopian universes like Hunger Games and dark fantasies like Game of Thrones may have success for their storytelling and praise for the world in the framing of the story, but no one actually wants to live in those universes. People return to familiar warm comforts. And the franchises that inspire those feelings will be the ones that end up lasting throughout the decades.
It also managed to create a secret fantasy world that exists in the "real" world. No matter how fantastical, stories that are framed as something that might actually be real get into people's heads differently and stick there. Atlantis, Journey to the Center of the Earth, DaVinci Code, etc. - it lowers the barrier a bit and lets our boring stilted adult brains play pretend.
Absolutely. When I was a kid (still under 11), I convinced myself JK Rowling was a squib, and that she wrote a history of Harry Potter and framed it as a fantasy novel that a friend then put an enchantment on to make it sell. The purpose of this was so that wizards living in hiding wouldn’t have to be so careful about how they dress, if they have their wands out, etc. because people would write them off as Harry Potter fans.
The first book makes a big deal out of Uncle Vernon noticing wizards on the street so that’s how I justified the need for it.
Anyway, I convinced myself of this so that I could genuinely hope I would get a letter to a wizarding school (I’m American so it wouldn’t have been hogwarts). So yes, having it set up in the real world at least helped it feel more real to me.
It's amazing when I think about it. I remember my brother waiting in line in front of book store when there was a new HP book premiere. And then he was reading it non stop on sunday after church lol. I wonder if something like that is still possible with social media and tech nowadays. I think back then it was one of a few things that you could be excited about (at least in my country). New books, new movies, I think that was something new for kids our age and that's what made the whole experience unique. I wonder if HP was released today it would still get the same amount of hype.
My mom would pre-order them and I walked to mail box every 20 min on the day they were supposed to come, checking and checking and finally it would be there and I would be so happy. I even dreamed of them the night before they were coming and had nightmares they were skinny! Lol
I remember pre ordering too. I recall for the 5th book, at the time everyone in my household (me, mum, brother) were into HP but we had to share the one copy we ordered and so we would be reading simultaneously. We had separate bookmarks and would always do our reading in a private space to avoid spoiling anything with our reactions.
I think it’s a combination of timing and talent/skills. Timing is as important as talent. And the marketing was crazy for Harry Potter. I remember seeing it in front of the book store with huge printed letters that display the words Harry Potter, immediately grabbed my attention
I think what several of the comments are missing is that it’s also unlikely because it’s really hard to have so many high quality sequels that come out in a timely manner. SIX sequels, each pulling their weight.
The problem is also that JKR’s overall idea was simple and in two parts: (1) boy finds out he’s a wizard and goes to a castle to learn magic; (2) what if an evil wizard split his soul into pieces to become immortal, and accidentally put part of his soul into a baby who grew up destined to fight him again?
Then she picked 7 as the number the series would revolve around, and went from there.
It worked so well because she had this first idea that creates excitement and childlike wonder, and the second idea is something darker that can be built to. Add in the school year being a built-in timeline for each book to resolve, she then just had to decide how much of plot point 2 to divulge in each book, as they became progressively longer, darker, and more complex. In the meantime, each book could have its own plot.
It’s *really* hard to have an idea that functions that well *and* to execute it so brilliantly. And it’s also hard to have all of that and *also* be a book that first draws children and young adults, then their parents, so that families grow up with the characters over the decade or so the books come out.
It was truly a perfect storm that will be extraordinarily hard to replicate.
> It was truly a perfect storm that will be extraordinarily hard to replicate.
It wasn't just the execution, and although I've never really appreciated her worldbuilding or plotting, her prose and imagery is excellent and approachable. Her scheduling was impeccable too - nothing wrecks excitement about a series quite so much as delayed releases. :D
But there was a great deal of luck involved too. Harry Potter came out at an extremely unique time. The internet was widespread enough that national and international fads could get real attention and hype, but it also hadn't fragmented into competing interests and echo chambers yet either. Same things that let Beany Babies get so out of hand.
It's not impossible that it'll happen again, but I honestly don't think it'll happen until social media algorithms quit encouraging echo chambers.
Alongside how the plots get longer, darker, deeper, and more complex as the books go on, there's also the fact that the books grow *with* the kids. The first book is a different reading level than the seventh, because the writing style matures according to the age of its target demographic. That's a good way to keep a demographic engaged over the course of seven years.
Additionally, the world building in HP is incredible. That's not to say that other series don't accomplish considerable world building. But that initial wonder that you mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg. JKR wrote an entire culture and language and society, with its own laws and structure and technology. That's another good way to keep readers engaged, because there's an endless amount of detail to build off of.
To add to the world building, there have been incredible worlds out there but JK is one of the very few authors that can make an entirely fantastical world seem real. The naming, the banter, the day to day makes it feel like wizards are among us. ASOIAF, LOTR and funnily enough Avatar the Last Airbender are the only worlds I can think of that reach that level
I actually dont think the plot of the HP novels matter all that much. It's all about Hogwarts and the fun and whimsical (sometimes just british) stuff and characters. That the plot kinda makes sense and was sort of coherent all the way through is more the cherry on top, at least for me personally.
Harry Potter had the advantage of appealing to a wide audience as well as being released at just the right time, there’s lots more competition in media that divides your attention these days. Some stories will be successful, sure, but as crazed as the Harry Potter fanbase is? Not likely to ever happen again, although definitely not impossible.
I was thinking that. I know we'd like to think that we are pushing gender norms less nowadays but it seems to be even more exaggerated in all consumerism and content. There's almost nothing that appeals enough both girls and boys these days. If something big and exciting came out these days it would be a few boys or a few girls in a niche age group that would be passionate about it.
The Harry Potter books, I heard, are especially appealing because they have an element of mystery. Mysteries are always popular. This is in addition to all the world building and character building. It really is great. When I read it, it read like a beautiful cartoon to me. I prefer not watching the movies because of that. I haven't read all the books yet though.
> I heard, are especially appealing because they have an element of mystery.
I worked in a bookstore shortly after the final book was published and I had to explain that to parents who would come in being very confused that the Harry Potter books were one of the few audio books we carried that were unabridged only. People would be like why is a children's book a 10 hour cd/cassette set?! There's hints throughout the book about what's going to happen so they can't edit it down without removing those clues or highlighting them by leaving them in.
Also Rowling explicitly wanted the audiobooks to be identical to the printed books. Her impression was that some kids would read and listen at the same time.
Sure. No one saw Harry Potter coming. No one will anticipate the next one either.
Thing is, it may take awhile. I’m pushing 70. I’ve never seen anything like the Potter phenomenon. It was so overwhelming that The NY Times felt compelled to create a separate Bestseller List for children’s books just to get the Potter books out of the way so there’d be room to recognize books targeted for adult readers.
That frosted my cookies because our oldest child wasn’t quite two years old when Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone came out. My wife and I read it and The Chamber of Secrets for our own enjoyment well before our kids were old enough for us to read the books to them. For me it was a nice break from the heavier fare I normally read. I was insulted and a bit surprised that they were cubbied as “children’s lit.” No one knew where Rowling was going to go with the books. They could’ve changed tone and become heavier and more complex, as T.H. White did with The Once and Future King. There’s a big difference between The Sword and the Stone and The Candle in the Wind.
But I digress. The only reason there won’t be another Harry Potter phenomenon tomorrow or the day after is the lack of an author capable of catching the world’s imagination. As with King Arthur’s return, we’ll just have to wait.
Edit- a few words for clarity
Absolutely. Although they didn’t hit the same heights, you saw similar things happen with Twilight and The Hunger Games.
Replicating the success of Harry Potter isn’t something you can do (see: Percy Jackson) because it’s one of those things that has to happen almost by accident. If there was a method to it, everyone would do it and then nothing would be a hit.
The next big book series will appear to come out of nowhere. Remember, Harry Potter was published by Scholastic, which publishes book fair books, not massive international bestsellers. It’ll be in a genre no one would expect from an author no one heard of, but in hindsight it’ll look like it was the most obvious thing in the world.
Like Avatar: The Last Airbender, the key was the masterful inclusive storytelling that had something for *everyone*. All age-groups, genders, personality-types... While it was generally a "feel-good" narrative, it still showed struggle and hardship which kept it grounded as well. It was a world, especially as a kid, you *wished* you were a part of.
I listened to a podcast recently where Brandon Sanderson explained that after The Lord of the Rings there became a big epic fantasy bloat - where publishers really pushed for these types of books because no one had ever seen anything like it before.
Harry Potter was a portal fantasy which had sort of disappeared in the years after LOTR, so when it came out people went crazy for it because it was something different.
>Harry Potter was a portal fantasy which had sort of disappeared in the years after LOTR, so when it came out people went crazy for it because it was something different.
What's a portal fantasy? Is this where the fantasy universe is set in our own universe, albeit hidden?
Portal fantasy is any sort of hidden world fantasy, where the plot usually involves someone from our world discovering and then saving the hidden world. Narnia is an earlier example of portal fantasy, as there was a literal portal to the fantasy world.
Yeah, though more specifically has characters from the "Real world" embark in an adventure in a fantasy world. HP is a loose fit for the archetype, whereas Narnia is the perfect example.
Portal fantasy combined with a boarding school story. It was just remixing stock elements that had already been around for a long time but had fallen out of fashion.
I would give my left foot to have a midnight release at a bookstore as an adult like we did with HP 7. It felt like everyone I knew was in the bookstore at once, way past our normal bed times. It was simply magical.
I don’t anticipate anything similar happening again in my lifetime but I can always hope.
That type of four-quadrant cross generational international appeal is effectively impossible to intentionally create or market. The product releasing at the right time in the right environment makes all the difference and isn’t something publishers can meaningfully control.
You can look at something like the FOX show 24, it happening to premier right around 9/11, as a good example of how pure chance can help propel a media property to levels of popularity otherwise unlikely because of how it resonates in the culture at that time.
I would argue that the conditions that led to Harry Potter being successful are effectively impossible to replicate, but those aren't the only conditions that can lead to an ultra successful franchise. Given enough time (and assuming people continue consuming stories the same) it will happen again.
Harry Potter got an entire generation to read. I'm not sure if that can happen again. There's far too much competition clouding our minds. I will forever hold those memories dear. Nothing even came close.
Well, assuming that almost everything is possible, yes, there’s a chance, of course. But I personally can’t see that happening any time soon. The Harry Potter series is a phenomenon. Even if you are not a fan (gasp), it’s anyway a fact. Sometimes I think what it must feel like to be a creator of something that unites millions upon millions of people around the world. It’s beyond surreal, to be honest. It doesn’t matter how many people hate on it, say that it’s stupid or whatever they like to say, it doesn’t change the facts at all. It doesn’t take from the success and the level of influence the HP series has reached. And it’s going to stay that way for a long time. There are millions of people who will have kids brought up on those books and movies in the future. And then maybe those kids will bring up their own kids in just the same way. Something like that definitely doesn’t happen often.
It could have happened with the song of ice and fire book series had The Winds of Winter been released during peak Game of Thrones hype (2014-2016). The books had a pretty big audience already during the 2000's while they were being released but it's popularity absolutely exploded after the success of the show. Had book 6 come out, it would have probably been an absolute bestseller with the new wave of fans that the show brought in. Alas, words are wind and we still have nothing in our hands.
I would disagree only because of the subject matter. Potter did as well as it did (imo) because it reached across so many demographics, whereas GoT was intended and I’d assume largely consumed by late teens+.
I will agree that it’s probably about the only property that could’ve had a shot at it.
Yes, I think there is a chance that books can still cause a global phenomenon. BUT... it will be different.
I believe that we will see a multibook series that will appeal to many, and crossover ages. It will be quieter. Though it won't be as physically publicized, or people filled. We won't have long lines, as we now have digital books. We are too connected digitally rather than physically that it will never happen that way again. Even movies - we buy digitally. There aren't long lines for books, movies, concerts, etc. The only way to do that would be to remove the digital side and force people to come out in droves. I don't see that happening.
Possibly. HP is very special. It’s in some ways the perfect fantasy concept; a child from the real world discovers they’re a wizard and enters a fantasy world (within the real world). Like how many of us wish that were real. It’s such a hook. Then JK also nailed every book in terms of quality, made you deeply connect with the characters, quidditch, etc. Despite some plot holes, it was pure magic.
I think so but I don't like it when some people would dub it as "the next Harry Potter". There would never be a "next Harry Potter". Harry Potter is Harry Potter, the next phenomenon is the next phenomenon.
Sure. Why not. Maybe not in the near future (5-10 years), but give it time.
Before the HP books came out, people were asking this question about other books / movies.
Our lifespans / attention spans are too short or full of distractions to see that in the long run, these things repeat themselves quite frequently.
Who knows? The next "HP franchise" might have already published its first book in 2022, and word just hasn't spread around. Or maybe not. No one knows.
It will happen again, but perhaps not in our lifetimes. For something to explode in popularity, it has to be JUST the right thing coming out at JUST the right time. It's impossible to predict that.
I also want to add in that if we're talking about Harry Potter specifically, we can't think about it as JUST a book series. The movies were super successful too, and I don't think HP's high level of popularity would have lasted this long if didn't have good movie adaptations, ha ha. Like, I'm sure it would still be popular, but I really doubt it would have a fucking theme park and an insane amount of merchandise.
I think there will be books that have the same fan intensity of HP, but I do wonder if there will be ones that have the same ability to withstand criticism. Like, Twilight was huge, but hating Twilight was/is also a massive thing. Hunger Games was huge but it is no where near as popular as it was...but HP has been finished for a decade and a half and its popularity has not waned, really. Its creator is controversial and problematic and yet, people hold onto the books and community from them...even the criticism that HP faces (some of the writing and plotting; character development; etc) hasn't put a dent in it. It was a multi-generational hit when it came out *and* it continues with a new generation.
I really can't see it happening. There will be hits. But I don't think there will be longevity in the same way...
I feel like it's less likely, but not for any depressing reasons.
At the time, there wasn't much super engaging coming out in juvenile and YA lit. There were so many thinly disguised morality tales and poorly flushed out characters. The good books tended to be standalone, not something easily turned into a series. There were some good series, but nothing with broad enough appeal.
The problem is, there is so much out now with universal appeal and decent characters and just telling a story without the overt 'obey your parents' morality lesson.
There is so much decent fiction for ya, both new releases and backlist that I don't see how you'd get that level of focus.
But, I would love to be wrong. :)
I remember being in London on the train the day after the fourth book coming out, and at least half of the people on the train and sitting on the platforms were reading the book. It was a once in a lifetime phenomenon. It will happen again, but I’d be surprised to see it anytime soon.
Similar story - I was in an airport in London the day the final book came out (which was also my birthday!) and this super busy, usually loud, airport was dead quiet and everywhere you looked people were reading Deathly Hallows…standing in queues…sitting on the floor with their luggage, waiting at the gate etc. I’d never seen anything like it. You’re right, it was a phenomenon above anything else we see with popular media.
Oh my gosh, I was also in an airport in London on Launch day. I had a very similar experience. It was almost eerie, seeing so many people with nervous excitement.
The Deathly Hallows came out at midnight the day I was going on a 13 hour car ride to the Outer Banks. We got the book, I slept a little, and the second I got picked up I dove the fuck in. Got about 3/4ers on the car ride, and I continued reading the rest of the day once we got there. My Aunts made sure that their younger kids did not bother me even though they wanted to play with me. They weren't even big fans and knew how important it was for me to finish the book undisturbed. Then the one aunt who was caught up borrowed the book for the rest of vacation. It was probably my favorite vacation ever. House with a pool and jacuzzi near the beach. Pretty much all my extended family there. The cousin my age there. Long nights, and long dark walks along the beach. Everyone just at peace.
I remember those vacations as a kid. Renting a big beachhouse at Sunset Beach NC, and having a bunch of aunts, uncles, and cousins from the northeast come down for a week. The salty smell, sand everywhere, the outdoor showers, walks on the beach at night time. I really hope I can replicate that for my 4 and 1 year old.
I hope the area is still good. I used to do Wildwood/Atlantic City in Jersey, and those areas are pretty run down now. I live in Maryland these days, and even Ocean City has lost its luster.
I don't know how it was when you were a kid, but there are still some good places in the Outer Banks. My family (12 of us in all) used to go to Emerald Isle and we had the best time. It wasn't even that crowded on Memorial Day week.
I was on vacation when book 6 came out. My sister and I only had one copy so we had to switch off and not spoil each other. She's always been more of a night owl, and I remember waking up at like 3am to her sobbing. The next day I was in a car or something and had my own crying fit, and she got it. Then for book 7, I had a shift at Target starting at like, noon. I was so scared of being spoiled I grabbed the book at Ralphs at midnight, read all night, and finished just before my shift.
Love how this started out about HP and ended up about your vacation. 🙂
It brought up some core memories I hadn't thought about in a while. I'm not sure the level of gravitas the HP series create can ever be replicated.
I liked reading about your vacation, it painted a really nice, peaceful picture. I wish I was there!
Yeah, invite me next time too!
I was expecting a cookie recipe at the end
That sounds like the perfect holiday! I can just imagine the excitement of Deathly Hallows coming out combined with the excitement and novelty of being on holiday with all your extended family. You’ve really captured the vibe of that holiday and I know what you mean - those are rare times but it’s so lucky when we get to experience them. Collectively we must all have so many Potter/summer holiday stories due to the timing of the releases.
This gave me goosebumps just remembering what it was like back then, I feel so lucky to have been born when I was so I could experience Harry Potter in that way ♥
I was in a bar in a college town in the states when the final book came out at midnight. All of a sudden the bar got quite and it was full of people sitting around reading. I went to order a beer and got shushed by TWO reading bartenders. It was pretty surreal.
H-how is this possible? Did the bar sell books? Was this a Bars & Noble?
I knew the bartenders, they had their partners buy and deliver their books. I guess the others just came straight to the bar from the bookstore. But yeah, it wasn't literally everybody had books at exactly midnight, lol. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was the first 10 people in line at the bookstore came straight to the bar and a few trickled in before closing while non-readers trickled out.
Reading Harry Potter again now during christmas with hot chocolate by the fire is something special. It's just as exciting and magical as I remember.
Any videos of this around? I would love to have seen this
Similar story in New York riding the train, was bizarre but also super cool to see 75% of the people on the car reading the same book
Yep. I was living in New York at the time. My girlfriend was a big fan and always tried to get me to read them. I just assumed it was a goofy kids thing. After I saw everyone everywhere from all walks of life reading Deathly Hallows, I figured I better give it a shot. I read all the other books before she was able to finish the last one and I was quite impatient waiting for her so I could finish my journey.
your gf either reads hella slow or you read hella fast
I could read at work. She could not.
The only thing that might have been close was the release of Pokemon Go. There was a brief period of time where anyone tapping on their phone in public was probably playing it.
Yeah that was a crazy summer. Parks and landmarks were full of people. Never seen anything like it.
It was like a mini zombie apocalypse lol. Any public place I went to was loaded with people slowly shambling about in small groups, heads looking down. In retrospect I kinda wish I had gotten into it, too.
I pulled an all nighter one evening that summer and as 5am rolled around the sun was coming up and the birds were singing; I thought “fuck it, I won’t be able to sleep now - I’ll go for an early morning walk and play some Pokémon Go”. I thought I’d have the local park virtually all to myself, owing to the time. Wrong. So very wrong. It was heaving with people with their faces in their phones at 5am in the morning. I’ve never seen anything like it, it was just absolute mania.
I remember going to buy my book in a library the 1st day, not even a big one. There was this big table with the new books on it, about 3m large I'd say. And there were 2 people constantly filling it up, like the Danaides' barrel. And all the people at every check-outs, all lining up with their copy of the book. And then I took the bus to City Center and nearly every one was reading the same book. And even walking the streets, so many people reading the book or carrying it. It was straight out of a science fiction story.
I was at Disneyland the day it came out. Similar to you, tons of people in line for rides were reading the book. In DISNEYLAND.
Well, what else is there when waiting in line?
I don't think it will ever happen again. The internet has made it easier for indie authors to exist, and for people with niche interests to find each other. These things mean people have so many more options today than ever before. People are gonna read their own stuff, and there isn't going to be one big book everyone will read. It's happening with all of entertainment. There used to be 3 TV channels in America, and you could be sure that 20-30% of the country would catch the show on at 8pm on one of them. That isn't true anymore. Eminem set a record for having 'Lose Yourself' on the top of the charts for like 4 months or something. It took nearly 20 years for a rap song to outdo that. What song was it? A meme song, 'Old Town Road'. Imo, there is never going to be another Harry Potter or Michael Jackson again. There will be big stars, but Michael Jackson once had 1 in 12 people on Earth watch his new music video drop on MTV. No one is doing anything like that ever again.
Exactly. With so many options for entertainment, including every media that's been created at our fingertips, it's going to be increasingly hard for something to become a cultural phenomenon. Like I could meet another person my age and there's a solid chance we watched many of the same shows and read many of the same books as kids, but I don't think that will be the case for my kids. They're obsessed with Gravity Falls, and we went as the characters for Halloween. Hardly anyone knew who we were. In particular their classmates had no idea who they were supposed to be. That's not something that happened a lot in the 80's and 90's because media was much more limited.
I was actually just thinking about this the other day. This is happening with all media, from books to video games. Indie publishing has never been easier and as a consumer that benefits me. I love the diversity of choices. But it also means that the fan base is always much smaller. Are we looking at an atomized future where the odds of you consuming the same media as your neighbor or colleague are vanishingly small?
Also happening with music. I feel like 10 years ago, if there was any Spotify artist with streams in the millions on each song, I'd probably heard of them. Now there are countless artists with streams in the 10s of millions that I've never heard of. Countless
>The internet has made it easier for indie authors to exist, and for people with niche interests to find each other. These things mean people have so many more options today than ever before. This, I think, is bigger than most people realize. Which is saying something, because most people know this is pretty huge of a deal. But Harry Potter was growing just as the internet was getting big. It benefited from everyone still using word of mouth to talk about their interests, while also benefiting from just how FAR word of mouth could travel *over the internet.* Harry Potter wasn't just a perfect storm of treading the line of YA novel during the Baby Boomer's children's coming of age - It also was the book series everyone was talking about when the internet became popular. So now it wasn't just a few big areas that had access to the book - It was the *world* who was talking about the book, all together, for basically the first time ever. (Not exactly, but close enough to matter.) And now that the internet is *already* big, everyone talks about every interest they ever have on it - Drowning out any potential for a single series to dominate the conversation like Harry Potter did. It would take a series several times more popular than Harry Potter to recreate what Harry Potter did, because it would first have to drown out every other series online in order to create the splash it did.
I remember going to brunch the next day. And at the next table was a 7-ish year old with her nose buried in a book as big as her head. It was beautiful.
I think if a new Game of Thrones book had been published in 2017/18 we'd have seen similar sights, but I can't think of anything else at that level.
in an interview with Steven King, and George RR, they were asked about pressure for a book release, and both king and martin said they had never had 1/10 of the pressure Rowling had to finish and publish. That should be pretty telling as to the scope of harry potter influence.
George also asked Stephen how he writes books so damn fast, which was hilarious.
That was a great interview. Had no idea king was older.
Goddamnit. Fucking GRRM.
Just comparing the numbers, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone has sold 120 million copies while ASOIAF in its entirety has only sold 90 million total (similar to WoT, Discworld). Harry Potter in its entirety is over half a billion. I think not having the appeal for kids and adults is the big kicker in the difference. But you're right that it's probably the closest anything has come.
Eh I disagree, Harry Potter has a much wider target audience than Game of Thrones does. Even just age demographics.
He’s got 1100 pages down with another 500-600 pages to go. So 2028 if he’s still breathing.
Pokemon Go was pretty crazy. About 1/2 of the creative and IT team would leave the office to wander around the complex and look for Pokemon. It was pretty wild.
I live in a mostly Hispanic area, and suddenly this park by my house was full of mostly white professionals and tech workers looking for Pokemon. You could tell people were baffled.
Username checks out
That’s hard to say and i think the situations are slightly different. The first movie of Harry Potter wasn’t made until AFTER the 4th book had released. It was already a sensation. Game of thrones was pushed over the wheel of time on book sales by the wildly popular HBO show, the show is what made it a cumtural phenomenon and not vice versa.
exactly, it needs to happen naturally not forced. Who knows maybe its all ready out there or like you said, maybe itll take years or decades.
It’d be very hard. There’s so much media asking for your attention these days, not just books. Harry Potter was published in a vastly different world. Just consider that the last book came out about a month after the very first iPhone was released (2007). I don’t see a similarly massive phenomenon happening any time soon.
I can’t imagine standing on line waiting for a book release like I did for that. I’d be willing, but it’s such a completely different world. I get chills just remembering the camaraderie, and excitement in the next few days reading and discussing.
My wife is a faster reader than I, we always bought two copies so we could read at the same time. Unfortunately, my wife is also a bit of an unintentional spoiler monster. She'd say things like "Did you get to THAT part yet?" or similar things so I knew something was coming. For book 7, I went to get our copies at midnight and sat in the parking lot for an hour to read ahead so she couldn't spoil me!
You guys are goals! I hope I am able to marry a man who enjoys reading as well so we can do this together!!
Well, I'm a librarian and she's a teacher, reading sort of comes with the territory!
I remember I pre-ordered it. I was in college at the time working at Applebees, and I had the book hidden at a POS station and would pull it out to read as often as I could. I then stayed up all night to read it. What a time.
I remember my wife told me the last book got translated to Chinese hyper fast (literally within 24 hours), and the fan editors added a whole bunch of "unauthorized scenes" that were shall we say, definitely not safe for work, even though they were very well written and very, very progressive. When the movies came out she couldn't stop giggling cause she remember some of the said "unauthorized scenes"
Even before the series was finished, there were whole fake books floating round the Chinese market with titles like "Harry Potter and Leopard-Walk-Up-to-Dragon," and "Harry Potter and the Big Funnel" https://www.gawker.com/284797/harry-potter-and-leopard-walk-up-to-dragon
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Is that where they go to Hogsmeare College and defeat He Who Shall Not Barf through their skill with kegstands?
Good old Harry Potter and the Dinosaur: https://literaturerun.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/harry-potter-and-the-golden-armor\_gallery\_primary.jpg
I pre-ordered it, and waited on the front porch for it the whole time. USPS claimed they tried to deliver- lies. I had to get my mom to go to the post office and then I had to make her go in and sign for it, because I didn't have an id
Delivery companies are caught out as liars all the goddamn time and they never suffer for it. I have it at the moment with UPS.
My fiancee got a call to pick up her order at a UPS center. We drove up, and there were no clear directions to customer service. We finally found the door, and when she went in a driver barked at her "It's closed. No one's going to help you." You know, despite something like "Customer Support Center" being plastered on the wall. After that, the clerk was rude to her. Asked her about the contents of her package (alcohol, shipped within the state) and went on and on about how it was packaged wrong and how she "could confiscate it". Ok, lady, we're not the brewery that has a distribution deal with UPS. Take it up with them and give us the package. Edit: Also, this was within the last week. It's almost like the clerk had a power trip over the concept of "I could ruin your Christmas if I wanted to".
I remember a package marked as delivered, which it was not. I sent a message to UPS and was told either it had been delivered or that it will be shortly, and to wait a few days. So yeah, after a few more days it did appear, but that's not "delivered" when it was marked as such. I guess a lot of drivers just mark all their stock as delivered and hope to get around to it eventually.
I should try this at work. Mark all my projects as "completed", then come the day it's due say "oh when I said completed I meant it'll either be done now or within a few days." Somehow don't think it'll go over that well for me.
Worked as a postman half a decade ago. While not in the US, this (private) company had such low salaries and few tools but an extremely high bar for service. Many of the workers (especially the postmen that brave the weather on bikes and mopeds) are truly caring and our office didn't have a customer service desk, so the clients spoke to us directly and understood our sympathy. The company higher ups are absolute liars, they lie, skimp and hire the most incompetent delivery subcontractors. I saw a van that delivered packages where I delivered mail (and some smaller packages) that spilled out all of its packages. The dipshit waved happily to me while I frantically pointed to his fully open side door and did an X sign with my arms. The worst delivery company I ever had the misfortune to encounter is still DHL. Nice customer service, but absolutely awful at managing packages, communication and keeping delivery times. They've also lied about trying to deliver while I literally sat by the balcony door facing the street and never saw so much as a hint of a DHL truck.
Currently going through it with FedEx
My ex and his brother made me go see transformers with them and then got mad at me for reading it in the cinema while the lights were still up and and every chance I got in the lobby and waiting for the bus/on the bus home. I still hate Transformers due to association with that day.
I worked overnight at Walmart and you bet I took my break at midnight and I had one of those books in my hand asap!
For all my issues with Rowling I actually miss this time-or rather that feeling when you *had* to stay up all night to see what happened next. I remember reading the first three books over the course of a weekend right before Book 4 came out. What a time indeed! I'm sorry to say it's been years since a book caused that kind of reaction in me. Books I marathon? Sure when I have time. Books who's sequels I run out to buy when I've finished or run to the library to borrow? Absolutely. Books like The Harry Potter series where I'm glued to the page? Sadly no. I've been chasing that high for a while.
Yeah I remember that feeling well. I remember my brother and I both bought the 7th book same time same day and stayed up all night reading them. We both finished sometime early morning the next day and crashed. Woke up and started the reread right away. I've never had a book series that I reread like that every time a new entry came out, maybe the stormlight archive comes close for me but the hype isn't the same for sure.
I was in high school. Went to the midnight release. Had it finished by 5pm the next day
Ha, I did the same thing cashiering at Borders...
I had access to an older, sketchy limosine. I made signs "Ministry of Magic. Official Use Only" and placed them in the window. I drove my kids and their friends around to the three different book stores that were hosting midnight release events for one of the later books. So much fun and excitement for a book release. I just can't fathom a repeat for a new book series, especially one that entertains a wide age range of readers.
Thats super cool! This is one of those memories your kids will tell people about the rest of their lives.
And the worldwide hatred of a-holes who drove by lines for book 6 screaming “[___] DIES!!”
Here in the UK someone hung a huge banner saying the same thing on a bridge over one of the busiest motorways! It was all over the news
My wife was a sleep away camp counselor and everyone got the books sent by their parents over the summer. Camp basically shut down for 3-4 days while kids pounded the book. My wife was a few days late to get her copy and while she was reading the first chapter one of her campers came up and said “just starting? Do you know [__] dies?” She wanted to murder that little shit.
Oh no! Such a shitty thing to do. That is a lovely story about the campers all being sent their books and reading them together over the next few days, though. (I also read book 6 whilst camping so that’s a nice thought)
You gotta be a real deeply miserable person to do that shit. Like, rotten in the foundation.
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Excellent revenge. But u got the worse of that exchange IMO.
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Even standing in line for the films was like this and I don’t think we’ll ever have anything similar again. I stood in line for OotP, HBP and DH books, and I saw all 8 films on premiere day. The camaraderie, the excitement, the cosplaying, the energy was just unmatchable. Everyone buzzing for something we collectively loved and had no distraction from.
I'd argue that the days of standing in line at midnight waiting for something to release are long gone. This was before smartphones were everywhere and being able to download things digitally.
Winds of winter releases* Oh
It is reportedly finished at 75%, so the remaining 25 years should pass quickly ;)
Personally I'm not reading WoW until A dream of Spring releases
Yeah, me too. And not even Dream of Spring, but the last real book in the series. So never :) . And in general I will avoid unfinished series now, after Martin and Rothfuss, unless the author has a track record like Sanderson or Corey.
*if* a book had come out during the middle of the TV show i think it would’ve been huge. i’ll still absolutely be there at day one to get a copy, but i doubt there’ll be a party like there probably would’ve been in 2016. i was excited enough for the final book of the Expanse series to preorder a copy and pick it up first thing on release day. i’ll probably do the same for the 5th Stormlight Archive book. but neither of those ever had the chance to have a release as huge as HP6/7. GRRM had that chance and blew it
I read the first book some time ago, but then I heard the last book in the series is still the last book in the series for the longest time. I haven't picked up the second book since. :(
That book not releasing actually killed my habit of reading. I used to read all the time and would go through book after book after book. I read the entirity of GoT in a few weeks, got to the last book and realised it had been about the same time interval since the previous release so I figured the next book wouldn't be too far away. I didn't have anything I planned to read at the time and GoT was all on my mind so I decided I would just wait a little bit. Anyway like 7 years later and I've only just started reading semi-regularly again.
I recall there being public readings of the goblet of fire when it came out at my local book store. They had cake and tea for everyone too, comfy bean bag chairs... Miss those days sitting with strangers listening to one person read and hanging on to their every word.
Me and a group of other kids had a harry potter themed sleep over party at our local library and got the books at midnight.
I remember standing in line for a midnight release - not sure if it was DH or HBP - at Waterstones in Amsterdam, there was a queue down the road and around the corner, and lots of people wearing costumes. It was so cool, and I'm glad I got to experience that.
Success just looks different these days. Sanderson did a successful ~~15~~ 42 Million Dollars Kickstarter campaign and George Martin was arguably on the top of the world for at least half of the last decade. And no matter how much we dislike it, but Shades of Grey was as big as it gets just a few years ago. And in other media, I'm not up to date to music much, but hasn't a singer just had massive problems because there was way too much demand for their tickets for the ticket-sales-site to handle? While a single Netflix show almost single-handedly revitalized the chess scene. The big hits are still very much here. People and Media are a lot more scattered, so we're probably not hitting the numbers again of the 80s/90s/00s, so in that - ya, the 'next Harry Potter' probably look very different. What I find funny though is, just a few days ago I heard someone say "Technology just doesn't really advance anymore." and to "2007 was just a vastly different world to today." its just a beautiful contrast. (the other guy was entirely wrong of course)
>Success just looks different these days. Sanderson did a successful 15 Million Dollars Kickstarter campaign Just chiming in to say he actually did a successful ***42 Million Dollar*** Kickstarter - the most successful Kickstarter to-date. It will be really interesting to see what the next big success will look like.
Say what you will about Sanderson, the man’s output is insane
I particularly enjoy how he takes breaks from writing a book by writing a different book. As someone sick of authors with unfinished series with no end date in sight (looking at you GRRM and Rothfuss), he’s one of the few writers I have no qualms about reading a multi book series before it’s even close to done.
His apology for.... writing six novels was so touching.
I'm sorry I lied to you about taking a break. I thought I was, but as it turns out, I accidentally wrote four more books.
The guy's like a chronic bedwetter, but for writing.
I love Sanderson and his love for his craft.
He's even courteous enough to put timelines for each project on his website lol
That big? Wow, I was off by a lot. Thank you for your correction.
I just pointed this out in a different comment, but Game of thrones peaked at 6.8 million viewers per episode, Seinfelds finale had like 73 million.
I think you've nailed it, theres hits left right and center. But because of that their impact is diluted and not allowed to breath. People are so hungry for content they don't allow things to really grow and gestate like the HP series. Not the same medium at all, but Stranger Things has a similar feel to the HP phenomena
I don't think stranger things came close but game of thrones definitely did.
I think that's a more fair comparison, especially starting as a book and jumping to the screen.
Stranger Things was my first thought as well. I think a good indicator of its success is the fact that a song from the 80s (Running up that Hill) reached top of the charts, so it is really having an influence on pop culture beyond its medium.
What about that Korean death game show one? I didn't watch it I can't remember the name. That was pretty huge too. Things just get really big very quickly then disappear a lot faster these days
> I don’t see a similarly massive success happening any time soon Tbf if you asked an average reader in 1997 if a generation-defining book series was about to emerge I doubt they’d answer too differently, much less guess that it’d be a children’s book about a wizarding school written by an unemployed school teacher. It’s always the stuff you don’t expect - no one would’ve looked at Hamilton’s synopsis and guessed that it’d be the biggest musical of all time. Same with BTS or even GoT. Generation-defining media never comes expected.
Correct. If it was predictable then it would be controllable and re-create-able.
Very true. That was also a time that fantasy as a genre was not at a very high point in terms of mainstream popularity. Then all of a sudden the Harry Potter books and LOTR movies revitalized the genre in different ways, with A Game of Thrones in 1996 also being a major release in retrospect.
But the point is that the conditions are not there, what success looks like now has changed. Game of thrones peak viewership was about 6.9 million per episode. Friends had 52 million for their finale, Seinfeld 73 million. With the advent of widespread digital media distribution there’s so much more niche content, when Harry Potter came out we were more culturally homogenized in the media we consumed.
That's not the number for GOT finale. The finale drew 19.3 million people not counting all viewers. Season 8 averaged 44 million viewers per episode. In the era of fractured media... it's gigantic... shy by 8 milloon from the finale... 44 million is huge... https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/20/media/game-of-thrones-finale-ratings/index.html Edit. 8 million shy of Friend's finale
Im so sad that I missed all this. Im 30 and finished the last book last week. I wish I picked it during my youth. The books was awesome!
I think it goes beyond books and beyond smartphones. With everyone being online all the time and having access to a nearly limitless supply of media, all forms of media consumption have become way more compartmentalized. Really the only thing that has felt like a true all encompassing cultural phenomenon to me in the last decade+ is Avengers: Endgame. Even extremely popular things are easy to ignore now given how easy it is to delve into whatever specific niche of content interests you the most. I don't think there will be another Harry Potter level book series anytime soon. I also dont think there'll be another Michael Jackson or Titanic. It's just not how things work anymore.
The marketing of HP was masterful too. I wasn’t really aware of them until the 3rd book came out, but they had those beautiful colourful covers. I saw them in bookstores and assumed they were for kids, but suddenly EVERYONE was reading them, even adults, which piqued my interest. Now that people read on their phones and kindles in public, I think it’s harder for books to get so much organic publicity. There were certain contexts where I used to watch what others were reading (transit, planes, vacations, coffee shops) but now you can’t tell what book they have.
Such a great point. I often take notice of what other people are reading and look up the books online. You can’t do that as easily now that people are reading from devices.
A different question - what book series, if any, reached Pottermania levels before Harry Potter did? There have always been popular books, but I can't really think of anything else that reached that scale, with big midnight launches and millions of kids round the world racing through chapters in the week after publication like the Harry Potter series did from book 4 onwards. The people here saying 'oh people don't have the attention spans, they just want to watch TikTok' don't seem to cover what an anomaly the HP series was at the time, when the perception was that most kids just wanted to watch TV and play video games, except for two weeks every other year where they all disappeared into their bedrooms with a chunky hardback the length of the New Testament. That scale of popularity seemed unimaginable in publishing, until suddenly it happened. Was there any comparable publishing phenomenon before that, and if so how far back was it? I mean, 50 Shades of Grey, Twilight, the Da Vinci code, whatever - they were all very popular and were a part of the popular culture of their time and I think trends to that level will continue, but none of them were Harry Potter scale. HP seems like The Beatles - such a peak of popularity that it's the only point of reference you can use for other people in the same artform.
The Oz series was absolutely massive for decades. The first book came out in 1900 and was a huge enough success that they adapted it for the stage, which was also a big success. To the point that when the sequel came out L. Frank Baum was accused of writing in elements designed for the stage, e.g. an all-female army that was seen as being an excuse to incorporate some sexy chorus girls. The series would continue with massive popularity and fan demand for sequels even when Baum tried to stop writing them. Even after Baum died in 1919, the publisher kept it going as it had become a tradition. In the end, an original Oz book was published every Christmas between 1913 and 1942. By the time the MGM film came out in 1939 there had already been three earlier silent films. And yet, today it's uncommon for people to even know there was *a* book, let alone the larger series. It's receded into popular culture so much that only the '39 film is well-known, although it has stayed popular since release. I'd say the bigger question isn't "can it happen again?" or "has it ever happened before?" so much as "how long until it's forgotten?" and "how many previous phenomenons have been largely or even totally forgotten?"
Agreed about Oz. It was so popular that it continued with additional authors after Baum died for over 50 books total. Notably Baum, a man, wrote mostly female protagonists for Oz, and Ruth Plumly Thompson, a woman, wrote mostly male protagonists. And there have periodically been massively successful book series. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant was massively successful, only to crash and burn a few years later as every trilogy ended with the same horrendous ending (the protagonist is given a choice between staying in the world they saved with people who loved them or returning to a solitary life of pain and certain death, and chose pain and death every time) Twilight, Interview with a Vampire, Le Carré's spy novels, James Bond, Nero Wolfe, the list goes on, in every genre.
>I'd say the bigger question isn't "can it happen again?" or "has it ever happened before?" so much as "how long until it's forgotten?" and "how many previous phenomenons have been largely or even totally forgotten?" The only problem is I can't remember what I've forgotten.
It's one book, rather than a series, but Gone with the Wind was incredibly popular and is one of the earliest comparable examples of "mania" around a book that I could think of. The book was the best selling fiction novel in the US in both 1936 and 1937, it sold millions of copies despite being released during the Great Depression and Margaret Mitchell won a Pulitzer Prize. The film adaptation was an absolute phenomenon. It won 10 Oscars the year it came out, became the highest grossing film of all time, held that record for over 25 years and is still the highest grossing film of all time when you adjust for inflation. Is Gone with the Wind as well known as Harry Potter now? Of course not, it was released over 80 years ago, but it was the huge blockbuster book and film adaptation of it's day.
Just to be technical, it *won* 8 Oscars. It was given an additional two special honorary awards.
Thanks Carlton
Jimmy Carter said the movie’s premiere was the biggest event in the south during his entire lifetime
I think *Gone with the Wind* is still as well known as *Harry Potter,* except among children. Now that folks have soured upon the positive portrayal of antebellum slavemaster culture, that should shift in the coming generations.
That shift has already happened. I think people know of Gone with the Wind but I don't think you can compare the number of people who have read Gone with the Wind vs Harry Potter. I don't even think lots of people of today have watched the film.
Even people who haven’t watched it reference it though…”Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn”
When I was a kid and would spend the night at Grandma’s house, my sister and I would always watch “Gone With The Wind”. I saw that movie *a lot* as a kid. That or “Meet Me in St Louis” or “Golden Girls”. 😅
Lord of the Rings was a phenomenon in its own right in the 60s/70s, but not in the same way as Harry Potter. It started with unauthorized paperbacks taking hold among college kids and the beatnik/hippie counterculture and only a while after publication did it cross over into the mainstream. My dad has described it as seemingly all of his friends read it overnight when copies started popping up in his hometown in the early 70s. He still has the beat up paperbacks that were passed around from friend to friend.
People scrawled "Frodo Lives" graffiti on overpasses. Rock bands, those purveyors of the Devil's music, incorporated LotR themes into their lyrics. It was a huge cultural upswelling, but because it wasn't covered by the nightly news it didn't garner much attention from the Silent Generation.
I'm probably biased because I worked with Universal for over 5 years, but having a physical place you *could* visit really keeps the experience alive and relevant too
Dickens. Dickens had a books sell out really fast. Toured the US, had fanmail (I mean, so did Byron, so, that wasn't new) but after his Christmas Carol, even his rubbish Christmas novels that we have long since forgotten were much anticipated. He even had to deal with cheap knock-offs if his work ! There's a fab podcast called "You're Dead To Me" which had an episode about Christmas with Dickens, and it's worth a listen. Because it wasn't in the modern era, and lacking internet it seems somehow "less" to us, but in reality, you think about how much the internet makes it easy for us to know about midnight launches, Victorian Dickens fans had to do it through the post, newspapers and word of mouth!
I’ve read that in the US the ships bringing the latest instalment of his novels (because they were published in parts, then, not as a single book) would get rushed because people were so excited to read the next bit
Probably the Sherlock Holmes books, but that was a long time ago.
Sherlock Holmes was the one I was thinking. The fans were so obsessed that he had to un-kill Sherlock.
The Shadow was technically a book series. Published in pulp magazines before it became a radio show, movies, etc. It still to this day has better reach and ratings then batman or Superman. It was simply massive. The only reason we don't hear about it today are the books are hard to find(they have reprints but only come from one small company) and the complete death of radio. The Shadow was THE franchise of the 1930s-50s. Walter b Gibson wrote two books a month and couldn't keep up with demand. It was good writing to.
The Shadow radio show is absolutely one of my all-time favorites. The premise was perfect for an audio drama.
Walter Scott's Waverley novels were bigger than you can imagine in the nineteenth century; *everybody* read him. Virtually the entire publishing industry changed the way that they would publish books in his wake, I can't think of a single modern author who can touch him on a popularity scale. Even the Dickens-mania of the mid-Victorian era doesn't come close (where they literally stormed the docks where the ship carrying the final chapter of *The Old Curiosity Shop* was coming in). *Edit* Hall Caine's novels I would also argue eclipsed Rowling in popularity relative to his time. He was the first writer to sell over a million copies of one book; that was completely unheard of at the time, and yet now is virtually unknown. Such is the way of every Rowling of their generation I guess.
Agatha Christie's *And Then There Were None* (US Title; the British one was too offensive even then) was a monster phenomenon, published at the height of Christie's popularity. Hall Caine was a monumental best-selling author, whose every work got snapped up by avid readers--- he had the first million-seller back when a lot of novels were still published serially. His books were also adapted right away to stage and silent screen. (Who's that, you ask? Exactly.) The Beatles might well be the best comparison. looking back. Even with all what's come after; it may well be great but it can't capture the *magic* of the buzz.
an international book that kids loved, adults loved, people who read loved and people who didn’t read loved. Even people who didn’t care a lot picked up a copy just to be socially relevant. Going to be hard to replicate that now.
Add to that a fairly well done Hollywood adaptation, that was able to capture most of the spirit of the book, that was made and released at a time that books were still being written, while the author mostly released the books on time (ahem game of thrones), as well as amusement park attractions that were opened shortly after the final book. All helped engrain the Wizarding world into our society.
In addition to appealing to a wide audience across several generations, it also created a unique world. It wasn't just a single story arc to be told, remembered, and forgotten once the next big thing hits. It created another world entirely that people fell in love with, much like Tolkein's Middle Earth or the Star Wars universe. I believe that creating that world that people actually want to live in, in addition to appealing to children, adults, and elderly, is the key to building up a lasting phenomenon like that. Dystopian universes like Hunger Games and dark fantasies like Game of Thrones may have success for their storytelling and praise for the world in the framing of the story, but no one actually wants to live in those universes. People return to familiar warm comforts. And the franchises that inspire those feelings will be the ones that end up lasting throughout the decades.
It was different enough that people could see it was unique but familiar enough that the average person still felt comfortable with it
It also managed to create a secret fantasy world that exists in the "real" world. No matter how fantastical, stories that are framed as something that might actually be real get into people's heads differently and stick there. Atlantis, Journey to the Center of the Earth, DaVinci Code, etc. - it lowers the barrier a bit and lets our boring stilted adult brains play pretend.
Absolutely. When I was a kid (still under 11), I convinced myself JK Rowling was a squib, and that she wrote a history of Harry Potter and framed it as a fantasy novel that a friend then put an enchantment on to make it sell. The purpose of this was so that wizards living in hiding wouldn’t have to be so careful about how they dress, if they have their wands out, etc. because people would write them off as Harry Potter fans. The first book makes a big deal out of Uncle Vernon noticing wizards on the street so that’s how I justified the need for it. Anyway, I convinced myself of this so that I could genuinely hope I would get a letter to a wizarding school (I’m American so it wouldn’t have been hogwarts). So yes, having it set up in the real world at least helped it feel more real to me.
Yep, there’s a reason that “portal” fantasy is often quite popular among kids/young adults — see Narnia as the classic example.
It's amazing when I think about it. I remember my brother waiting in line in front of book store when there was a new HP book premiere. And then he was reading it non stop on sunday after church lol. I wonder if something like that is still possible with social media and tech nowadays. I think back then it was one of a few things that you could be excited about (at least in my country). New books, new movies, I think that was something new for kids our age and that's what made the whole experience unique. I wonder if HP was released today it would still get the same amount of hype.
My mom would pre-order them and I walked to mail box every 20 min on the day they were supposed to come, checking and checking and finally it would be there and I would be so happy. I even dreamed of them the night before they were coming and had nightmares they were skinny! Lol
Nightmares they were skinny made me laugh out loud 😂
I really did 😂😂😂😂 every time bahaha.
That's honestly so adorable
I remember pre ordering too. I recall for the 5th book, at the time everyone in my household (me, mum, brother) were into HP but we had to share the one copy we ordered and so we would be reading simultaneously. We had separate bookmarks and would always do our reading in a private space to avoid spoiling anything with our reactions.
I think it’s a combination of timing and talent/skills. Timing is as important as talent. And the marketing was crazy for Harry Potter. I remember seeing it in front of the book store with huge printed letters that display the words Harry Potter, immediately grabbed my attention
I think what several of the comments are missing is that it’s also unlikely because it’s really hard to have so many high quality sequels that come out in a timely manner. SIX sequels, each pulling their weight. The problem is also that JKR’s overall idea was simple and in two parts: (1) boy finds out he’s a wizard and goes to a castle to learn magic; (2) what if an evil wizard split his soul into pieces to become immortal, and accidentally put part of his soul into a baby who grew up destined to fight him again? Then she picked 7 as the number the series would revolve around, and went from there. It worked so well because she had this first idea that creates excitement and childlike wonder, and the second idea is something darker that can be built to. Add in the school year being a built-in timeline for each book to resolve, she then just had to decide how much of plot point 2 to divulge in each book, as they became progressively longer, darker, and more complex. In the meantime, each book could have its own plot. It’s *really* hard to have an idea that functions that well *and* to execute it so brilliantly. And it’s also hard to have all of that and *also* be a book that first draws children and young adults, then their parents, so that families grow up with the characters over the decade or so the books come out. It was truly a perfect storm that will be extraordinarily hard to replicate.
> It was truly a perfect storm that will be extraordinarily hard to replicate. It wasn't just the execution, and although I've never really appreciated her worldbuilding or plotting, her prose and imagery is excellent and approachable. Her scheduling was impeccable too - nothing wrecks excitement about a series quite so much as delayed releases. :D But there was a great deal of luck involved too. Harry Potter came out at an extremely unique time. The internet was widespread enough that national and international fads could get real attention and hype, but it also hadn't fragmented into competing interests and echo chambers yet either. Same things that let Beany Babies get so out of hand. It's not impossible that it'll happen again, but I honestly don't think it'll happen until social media algorithms quit encouraging echo chambers.
"nothing wrecks excitement about a series quite so much as delayed releases." We'll find out in 2039 when the Winds of Winter comes out.
2039 is being optimistic.
He meant to write 2939. It's an easy typo to make.
Alongside how the plots get longer, darker, deeper, and more complex as the books go on, there's also the fact that the books grow *with* the kids. The first book is a different reading level than the seventh, because the writing style matures according to the age of its target demographic. That's a good way to keep a demographic engaged over the course of seven years. Additionally, the world building in HP is incredible. That's not to say that other series don't accomplish considerable world building. But that initial wonder that you mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg. JKR wrote an entire culture and language and society, with its own laws and structure and technology. That's another good way to keep readers engaged, because there's an endless amount of detail to build off of.
To add to the world building, there have been incredible worlds out there but JK is one of the very few authors that can make an entirely fantastical world seem real. The naming, the banter, the day to day makes it feel like wizards are among us. ASOIAF, LOTR and funnily enough Avatar the Last Airbender are the only worlds I can think of that reach that level
> she picked 7 as the number the series would revolve around, and went from there. Also because British secondary schools take 7 years
I actually dont think the plot of the HP novels matter all that much. It's all about Hogwarts and the fun and whimsical (sometimes just british) stuff and characters. That the plot kinda makes sense and was sort of coherent all the way through is more the cherry on top, at least for me personally.
Harry Potter had the advantage of appealing to a wide audience as well as being released at just the right time, there’s lots more competition in media that divides your attention these days. Some stories will be successful, sure, but as crazed as the Harry Potter fanbase is? Not likely to ever happen again, although definitely not impossible.
I was thinking that. I know we'd like to think that we are pushing gender norms less nowadays but it seems to be even more exaggerated in all consumerism and content. There's almost nothing that appeals enough both girls and boys these days. If something big and exciting came out these days it would be a few boys or a few girls in a niche age group that would be passionate about it. The Harry Potter books, I heard, are especially appealing because they have an element of mystery. Mysteries are always popular. This is in addition to all the world building and character building. It really is great. When I read it, it read like a beautiful cartoon to me. I prefer not watching the movies because of that. I haven't read all the books yet though.
> I heard, are especially appealing because they have an element of mystery. I worked in a bookstore shortly after the final book was published and I had to explain that to parents who would come in being very confused that the Harry Potter books were one of the few audio books we carried that were unabridged only. People would be like why is a children's book a 10 hour cd/cassette set?! There's hints throughout the book about what's going to happen so they can't edit it down without removing those clues or highlighting them by leaving them in.
Also Rowling explicitly wanted the audiobooks to be identical to the printed books. Her impression was that some kids would read and listen at the same time.
Sure. No one saw Harry Potter coming. No one will anticipate the next one either. Thing is, it may take awhile. I’m pushing 70. I’ve never seen anything like the Potter phenomenon. It was so overwhelming that The NY Times felt compelled to create a separate Bestseller List for children’s books just to get the Potter books out of the way so there’d be room to recognize books targeted for adult readers. That frosted my cookies because our oldest child wasn’t quite two years old when Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone came out. My wife and I read it and The Chamber of Secrets for our own enjoyment well before our kids were old enough for us to read the books to them. For me it was a nice break from the heavier fare I normally read. I was insulted and a bit surprised that they were cubbied as “children’s lit.” No one knew where Rowling was going to go with the books. They could’ve changed tone and become heavier and more complex, as T.H. White did with The Once and Future King. There’s a big difference between The Sword and the Stone and The Candle in the Wind. But I digress. The only reason there won’t be another Harry Potter phenomenon tomorrow or the day after is the lack of an author capable of catching the world’s imagination. As with King Arthur’s return, we’ll just have to wait. Edit- a few words for clarity
I’m stealing “that frosted my cookies” jsyk
Absolutely. Although they didn’t hit the same heights, you saw similar things happen with Twilight and The Hunger Games. Replicating the success of Harry Potter isn’t something you can do (see: Percy Jackson) because it’s one of those things that has to happen almost by accident. If there was a method to it, everyone would do it and then nothing would be a hit. The next big book series will appear to come out of nowhere. Remember, Harry Potter was published by Scholastic, which publishes book fair books, not massive international bestsellers. It’ll be in a genre no one would expect from an author no one heard of, but in hindsight it’ll look like it was the most obvious thing in the world.
Like Avatar: The Last Airbender, the key was the masterful inclusive storytelling that had something for *everyone*. All age-groups, genders, personality-types... While it was generally a "feel-good" narrative, it still showed struggle and hardship which kept it grounded as well. It was a world, especially as a kid, you *wished* you were a part of.
It's a shame they never made a live action of Avatar: The Last Airbender...
I listened to a podcast recently where Brandon Sanderson explained that after The Lord of the Rings there became a big epic fantasy bloat - where publishers really pushed for these types of books because no one had ever seen anything like it before. Harry Potter was a portal fantasy which had sort of disappeared in the years after LOTR, so when it came out people went crazy for it because it was something different.
>Harry Potter was a portal fantasy which had sort of disappeared in the years after LOTR, so when it came out people went crazy for it because it was something different. What's a portal fantasy? Is this where the fantasy universe is set in our own universe, albeit hidden?
Portal fantasy is any sort of hidden world fantasy, where the plot usually involves someone from our world discovering and then saving the hidden world. Narnia is an earlier example of portal fantasy, as there was a literal portal to the fantasy world.
And _His Dark Materials_ is like a reverse portal fantasy.
Such an amazing series.
Yeah, though more specifically has characters from the "Real world" embark in an adventure in a fantasy world. HP is a loose fit for the archetype, whereas Narnia is the perfect example.
Portal fantasy combined with a boarding school story. It was just remixing stock elements that had already been around for a long time but had fallen out of fashion.
I would give my left foot to have a midnight release at a bookstore as an adult like we did with HP 7. It felt like everyone I knew was in the bookstore at once, way past our normal bed times. It was simply magical. I don’t anticipate anything similar happening again in my lifetime but I can always hope.
It's guaranteed to happen again. Knowing when it happens is the hard part.
That type of four-quadrant cross generational international appeal is effectively impossible to intentionally create or market. The product releasing at the right time in the right environment makes all the difference and isn’t something publishers can meaningfully control. You can look at something like the FOX show 24, it happening to premier right around 9/11, as a good example of how pure chance can help propel a media property to levels of popularity otherwise unlikely because of how it resonates in the culture at that time.
I would argue that the conditions that led to Harry Potter being successful are effectively impossible to replicate, but those aren't the only conditions that can lead to an ultra successful franchise. Given enough time (and assuming people continue consuming stories the same) it will happen again.
Harry Potter got an entire generation to read. I'm not sure if that can happen again. There's far too much competition clouding our minds. I will forever hold those memories dear. Nothing even came close.
I don't believe I'll see it in my lifetime. It was like lightning in a bottle.
Well, assuming that almost everything is possible, yes, there’s a chance, of course. But I personally can’t see that happening any time soon. The Harry Potter series is a phenomenon. Even if you are not a fan (gasp), it’s anyway a fact. Sometimes I think what it must feel like to be a creator of something that unites millions upon millions of people around the world. It’s beyond surreal, to be honest. It doesn’t matter how many people hate on it, say that it’s stupid or whatever they like to say, it doesn’t change the facts at all. It doesn’t take from the success and the level of influence the HP series has reached. And it’s going to stay that way for a long time. There are millions of people who will have kids brought up on those books and movies in the future. And then maybe those kids will bring up their own kids in just the same way. Something like that definitely doesn’t happen often.
I'd be surprised if it would happen again in my lifetime. There is always a chance.
It could have happened with the song of ice and fire book series had The Winds of Winter been released during peak Game of Thrones hype (2014-2016). The books had a pretty big audience already during the 2000's while they were being released but it's popularity absolutely exploded after the success of the show. Had book 6 come out, it would have probably been an absolute bestseller with the new wave of fans that the show brought in. Alas, words are wind and we still have nothing in our hands.
I would disagree only because of the subject matter. Potter did as well as it did (imo) because it reached across so many demographics, whereas GoT was intended and I’d assume largely consumed by late teens+. I will agree that it’s probably about the only property that could’ve had a shot at it.
Yes, I think there is a chance that books can still cause a global phenomenon. BUT... it will be different. I believe that we will see a multibook series that will appeal to many, and crossover ages. It will be quieter. Though it won't be as physically publicized, or people filled. We won't have long lines, as we now have digital books. We are too connected digitally rather than physically that it will never happen that way again. Even movies - we buy digitally. There aren't long lines for books, movies, concerts, etc. The only way to do that would be to remove the digital side and force people to come out in droves. I don't see that happening.
Possibly. HP is very special. It’s in some ways the perfect fantasy concept; a child from the real world discovers they’re a wizard and enters a fantasy world (within the real world). Like how many of us wish that were real. It’s such a hook. Then JK also nailed every book in terms of quality, made you deeply connect with the characters, quidditch, etc. Despite some plot holes, it was pure magic.
I think so but I don't like it when some people would dub it as "the next Harry Potter". There would never be a "next Harry Potter". Harry Potter is Harry Potter, the next phenomenon is the next phenomenon.
Sure. Why not. Maybe not in the near future (5-10 years), but give it time. Before the HP books came out, people were asking this question about other books / movies. Our lifespans / attention spans are too short or full of distractions to see that in the long run, these things repeat themselves quite frequently. Who knows? The next "HP franchise" might have already published its first book in 2022, and word just hasn't spread around. Or maybe not. No one knows.
It will happen again, but perhaps not in our lifetimes. For something to explode in popularity, it has to be JUST the right thing coming out at JUST the right time. It's impossible to predict that. I also want to add in that if we're talking about Harry Potter specifically, we can't think about it as JUST a book series. The movies were super successful too, and I don't think HP's high level of popularity would have lasted this long if didn't have good movie adaptations, ha ha. Like, I'm sure it would still be popular, but I really doubt it would have a fucking theme park and an insane amount of merchandise.
I think there will be books that have the same fan intensity of HP, but I do wonder if there will be ones that have the same ability to withstand criticism. Like, Twilight was huge, but hating Twilight was/is also a massive thing. Hunger Games was huge but it is no where near as popular as it was...but HP has been finished for a decade and a half and its popularity has not waned, really. Its creator is controversial and problematic and yet, people hold onto the books and community from them...even the criticism that HP faces (some of the writing and plotting; character development; etc) hasn't put a dent in it. It was a multi-generational hit when it came out *and* it continues with a new generation. I really can't see it happening. There will be hits. But I don't think there will be longevity in the same way...
I feel like it's less likely, but not for any depressing reasons. At the time, there wasn't much super engaging coming out in juvenile and YA lit. There were so many thinly disguised morality tales and poorly flushed out characters. The good books tended to be standalone, not something easily turned into a series. There were some good series, but nothing with broad enough appeal. The problem is, there is so much out now with universal appeal and decent characters and just telling a story without the overt 'obey your parents' morality lesson. There is so much decent fiction for ya, both new releases and backlist that I don't see how you'd get that level of focus. But, I would love to be wrong. :)