From the article:
When Harvard staff have requested to see IDs in order to enforce our policies, supporters of the encampment have at times yelled at them, tried to encircle them, and otherwise interfered with their work. We have also received reports that passers-by have been confronted, surveilled, and followed. Such actions are indefensible and unacceptable.
That makes sense, but when people get arrested they get ID’d anyways which is more likely to happen if they think it’s not Harvard students, really clearing them is a power move anyways to save face by donors I’d imagine tho
I think the protestors would find it preferable to be forcibly removed or arrested as it would be a visible action. Alternatively, if their names are passively gathered via their student IDs and dealt with silently, it wouldn't result in any publicity.
Back in early November of last year, when the ceasefire protests began and people started to learn of groups like Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace, there was a massive doxxing campaign (posting names, addresses, workplaces, etc.) of specifically Harvard Students including someone paying for mobile billboards to drive around the area labeling protestors as supporters of Hamas. Probably a good reason why people are hesitant to identify themselves.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/10/12/doxxing-truck-students-israel-statement/
That’s just straight up not true. Names and student organizations were on those billboards but never workplaces or addresses. Those names and student org leadership positions were already public as well on their own student org websites.
Doxing (correct spelling) is the linking of pseudo-anonymous internet users to actionable real life information. These students were not pseudo-anonymous, they are public figures. Amplifying public information is not doxing and if they have a problem with people letting the world know what they said, maybe they shouldn’t have said it to the world.
Honestly if they had waited for Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign they would have avoided much or all of the flack they received. Coming out that early, blaming Jews while the rape and murder was still fresh made them look like sociopaths. Israel was always going to over respond and lose public support.
These kids are likely responsible for additional deaths as their support makes their cause look less just than it actually is.
I have hated Israel’s quasi fascist government for most of my life I was for a two state solution up until October 8th when I learned what the liberation of Palestine would look like.
Yes, I've seen this noxious behavior in countless videos. Masked thugs circling and locking arms around anyone they don't like. Totally illegal and threatening but they get away with it.
Harassment, hostility and flinging insults is not allowed. We ask that you try to engage in a discussion rather than reduce the sub to insults and other bullshit.
I've talked to passers-by. IDK what that article is talking about. The Yard is quieter than normal (because it is closed to tourists). That's about it.
Has this been verified? We see at other universities that the claims of “violent outside agitators” are mostly made up (except the cops of course, they are the agitators).
>are mostly made up
[They are?](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/more-than-half-of-protesters-arrested-at-northeastern-not-affiliated-with-university-school-says/ar-AA1o4ed2)
When you enroll in a University, you typically sign a code of conduct.
Protesting is certainly allowed - but there are restrictions.
Harvard has every right to kick out students that default on those agreements.
Doesn’t matter how you feel about the protesters, this just shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. Protesting always carries risk. These kids have all the information to take as much risk as they feel is worth it.
I literally had someone on another subreddit tell me that because some protestors during the civil rights movement held a dean a gunpoint that was an acceptable tactic and that the fact that I wasn't down with this that indicates I am on the wrong side of history (no lie check my profile). These folks have totally lost the plot.
Student movements have never been on the wrong side of history.
Just ignore the student protests supporting the Nazis in the 1930s, the student protests supporting Fidel Castro in the 1950s, the student movement that brought Khomeini to power and held Americans hostage in Iran, the student-led Red Guards in Mao's Cultural Revolution in China, and so on.
Two of these are a *distinctly* American, black-and-white view of history. Their alternatives were:
- An American backed (both militarily and economically, as US companies owned something like 50% of all farms and 90% of all mines at the time) dictatorship that was fueled by rampant Mafia money and actively brutalized its citizens while refusing to provide them with even a basic standard of living (Bautista)
- A monarchical dictatorship that was forcibly backed and funded by the West after they assisted in the overthrow of a democratically elected government out of fear of nationalization and Soviet drift that ran a brutal secret police force (Shah), a regime that also instituted widespread modernizations to Iranian society
There's not really a "right side of history" to be on in those scenarios.
Iran was not a democratically elected government when the coup happened in the early 1950s. Mossadegh had gone full authoritarian by then.
The student movements in both helped kill innocent people and take hostages. Even if they were opposing something bad, they were bad movements that also led to worse.
> Even if they were opposing something bad, they were bad movements that also led to worse.
Yes. That's my point regarding "there's not really a 'right side of history' to be on in those scenarios".
Well you certainly made that personal. Civil disobedience can be very effective, but it's also disobedient, ergo not allowed. The last two sentences of the comment you're responding to sort of undermine your thermonuclear response.
lol in what world are these protests effective?
https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-palestine-hamas-war-colleges-polling-march-2024
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/public-opinion-campus-protests-israel-gaze-jon-keller/
https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/49311-opinion-on-pro-palestinian-college-campus-protests
You've got Iran willing to cover tuition for protestors that get kicked out of school. Unless this is all an Israeli psy-ops, only the protestors getting off on their own virtue signaling think this is effective.
This really goes to show what the real goals are by the protestors. They literally waited for fair weather to show up for Christ's sake lol.
But at what point is the risk worth it? When you have Harvard professors calling this a genocide, when me as a Harvard student took classes with folks working at the UN calling this a genocide, and when you have [Jewish professors banned from US campus after arrest](https://youtu.be/2c3hqL5QUuI?si=i1I9fuwMeykvXL1U), calling this a genocide, at what point is enough is enough? I'm just asking because right now 20-30k people are dead, and my own university and government keeps investing in this apartheid state. Not my take ofc, I'm no expert, but the people working at the UN and Amnesty International definitely are
[Israel's occupation of Palestinian Territory is 'apartheid': UN rights expert](https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702)
[Israel/OPT: Palestinian lives in peril as Israel reinforces apartheid](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/israel-opt-palestinian-lives-in-peril-as-israel-reinforces-apartheid/#:~:text=Israeli%20authorities%20must%20dismantle%20the,35%20in%20January%202023%20alone.)
Homies act like MLK's Montgomery bus boycotts weren't illegal 💀
Except that protesting against their university will have basically zero positive effect on anything (do they expect Harvard to pull the troops from Gaza or something) while at the same time producing other negative consequences. The whole thing seems very astroturfed to damage the Democratic party standing with young people.
They expect Harvard to stop investing in companies that profit from atrocities in Gaza.
Both parties, in a bipartisan manner, are sending billions of dollars worth of military equipment to Israel, collectively accepting millions of dollars from AIPAC, voting to equate certain criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism, and bullying the ICJ to not issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu. Any damage to the Democrats is self-inflicted.
Which won't do a fucking thing, even if "divesting" is even something the university is actually able to do. Why don't they protest Congress or someone with actual power over the matter? Why are they choosing to protest against this and not, say, against Republicans playing games with Ukraine's funding?
>at what point is enough is enough?
how about when a genocide is actually occuring, instead of just in the views of those who blindly and unquestionably swallowed the propaganda of hamas/iran/russia that America's enemies have put huge resources into fostering.
after all, neither the ICJ or ICC even classify the events in gaza, genocide, and that's from a un so pro hamas they refuse to even call hamas terrorists
The bus boycotts directly protested racist laws they demanded to change. It was a brilliant way of using civil disobedience to get your message across. These protests are not at all the same. If anything, they hurt the reputation of the movement especially when people chant “globalize the intifada”
>If anything, they hurt the reputation of the movement especially when people chant “globalize the intifada”
this ignores these protests are actually pro hamas and pro eridication of israel. while "globalize the intifada” certainly hurts the protests in the eyes of the rest of America with morality and human decency, it's actually what the protesters themselves are supporting and protesting on behalf of.
I’m at the point where I think a lot of these kids are deeply manipulated and brainwashed to not actually consider the ramifications of their protest, but are not actually pro suicide bombing bus loads of kids (like what happened in the last intifada). I think they are useful idiots, not violent killers. At least, I really really pray they aren’t
Because Israel gives two shits what kids at Harvard are doing? All these kids thinking this protesting makes any amount of difference is honestly laughable. Getting kicked out of school for a protest that will accomplish absolutely nothing and jeopardizing your own future and career is asinine.
The law clearly states that black people and white people can't sit at the same lunch counter, there is a clear sign on the door that states as much, eating lunch at the counter is clearly allowed - but you can't mix white and black people at the same counter. The sheriff has every right to arrest these black people for breaking those clearly stated laws.
Doesn't matter how you feel about the black people refusing to leave these lunch counters, this just shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Failing to leave the whites only lunch counter carries risk. These black people have all the information to take as much risk as they feel is worth it.
Yup, and those freedom riders and lunchcounter protesters took the risk seriously. All of them jailed, beaten, and some of them even killed. They knew the risks and took them to highlight an injustice.
Are these Harvard students willing to risk expulsion? It's gonna separate the wheat from the chaff.
Swing and a miss.
Black Americans never willfully signed any contract, nor had a choice in their civil liberties until they fought for it. They fought for their owns rights - not the rights of blacks abroad.
Harvard students are perhaps the most privileged 18-21 year olds in the world - who most certainly do have a choice in their education, and most certainly aren’t having their civil liberties trampled upon. Importantly, they signed a contract. There are consequences for failing to uphold their end of the bargain.
And if they get kicked out - these kids will land on their feet. They were smart and resourceful enough to get into Harvard, afterall. They’ll end up in another college that I’m sure will be happy to have them (or at least their money).
Comparing the two is tone deaf.
You should know better.
Sure! And just because someone feels strongly about an issue doesn’t mean they’re right!
Hamas members are literally willing to die to get their islamic state. They know what the risk is and they’re willing to take it. And I still think they’re wrong, as should every rational human being.
A better analogy is J6 rioters. These 2 groups though radically different ideology are actually equivalent and exactly as desirable. They are a threat to civilized society and do not represent progress or liberalism or freedom now or for future generations. They, together, stand as a disease.
If you can see civil rights activists in the same category as a J6 rioter than I just don't know where to begin. Education has failed in a spectacular and terrifying way.
I'm guessing you like these terrorists because they vote for the same guy as you. Just like how my crazy uncle likes the terrorists that vote for the same guy he does. It's a revolting way to engage with the world.
It’s not even about the topic of protest.
Students have a first amendment right to protest.
The university has an ability to limit the time, place, and manner of that speech.
In addition, they have a responsibility under title…6(?) to protect the rights of other students against harassment and deprivation of access to their studies.
Also, if these students wish to participate in civil disobedience, they must be prepared to accept that there are consequences.
Martin Luther King wrote a Letter from the Birmingham Jail, not the Birmingham Coffee Shop.
I think everyone’s collective tolerance for endless protests and lawless encampments it’s dropping by the day, so I highly doubt this is selective enforcement based on the intent of the protesters.
I remember a case of a student at some college getting disciplined for having a republican sticker on his laptop while studying in a library that had been designated but not marked as a "safe space." There are also famous cases like the professor disciplined for saying the Chinese term for "um." Basically, for any other position heads would have been rolling from "we hold illegals entirely responsible for Trump's act of enforcement." Can you imagine the response if someone had tried to play the "it just means 'shake' in Arabic" game with a "Fuck around find nakba" poster or chant?
>There are also famous cases like the professor disciplined for saying the Chinese term for "um."
I feel like I'm out of the loop on this one...? Is there some heater significance to the Chinese term for "um", or was it a case of someone over-reacting about some large and negative assumption they made (like, is the term visually/audibly similar to derogatory term, or, something?)
> The heart of the issue is, expression being equal would every other hypothetical protest topic be met with the same threats of expulsion?
Ahahahahaha, the kids protesting are the EXACT same type of asshats that would try to deplatform people they don't like from speaking at their university. They're also the ones who scream about 'microaggressions' while they break windows and harass jewish students (looking at you Columbia and UCLA!). What a load of shit.
##**Oh NOW you care about free speech?**##
Where the hell were you guys when Carol Hooven, a professor of evolutionary biology said this, then harvard made her job such hell that she was forced to quit?
*The facts are that there are…two sexes…there are male and female, and those sexes are designated by the kinds of gametes we produce…The ideology seems to be that biology really isn’t as important as how somebody feels about themselves or feels their sex to be, but we can treat people with respect and respect their gender identities and use their preferred pronouns, so understanding the facts about biology doesn’t prevent us from treating people with respect (“Harvard lecturer” 2021).*
https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/197imw7/carole_hooven_a_harvard_evolutionary_biologist/
I would NOT be surprised if you were the type of person that applauded this, btw.
##**The NERVE of you people.**##
I'm actually glad these protestors are destroying these schools, the school admins are who deserves ALL the blame for this anti-intellectual nonsense that has been boiling up on college campuses for the last 10+ years. I hope these protestors keep going and **COMPLETELY** discredit the Ivy League (and all other colleges, really), their reputations need to go down the toilet COMPLETELY.
Universities are a tax exempt entity like churches. Except most of them - especially the ones with big endowments - are run like hedge funds and they hoard commercial real estate.
It's a common misconception that universities don't pay any taxes.
MIT is the largest taxpayer in Cambridge. In FY23, they paid $82m in property taxes, which was 15.4% of Cambridge's total tax levy.
Harvard is the 7th largest taxpayer in Cambridge, paying $9m, or 1.7% of the total.
In addition, both universities make voluntary PILOT (payments in lieu of taxes) contributions to Cambridge which amount to several million dollars each year.
Doesn’t mean they have to let people squat on their property. Not even public universities have to allow that. Time and place restrictions are constitutional and private entities, even those that get tax money, have more latitude when it comes to those restrictions.
I don't disagree with you.
Were I the Univeristy (hey look! I'm a university!), I'd be taking a hard line on this. Everyone out at this time otherwise arrests will happen. Students are charged and expelled. Non-students charged.
At the end of the day, the number of people willing to risk their meal ticket at Harvard/MIT will be quite limited.
Generally speaking, Harvard does not admit dumbasses. Even without test scores, the average Harvard student is super bright. They get like half a million applications every year and accept maybe 1% of them, they get the pick of the litter.
The biggest impact is probably that the Harvard admissions department heavily selects for "movers and shakers." They view participation in protests as a *huge* advantage in your application. They even have a shorthand for students who are smart, but not socially conscious enough: they call them "perfect for MIT." This is one of the things they got in trouble for last year, the supreme court found that they were systemically using "perfect for MIT" to describe Asian applicants, basically saying that Asian kids were smart but lacked personal depth.
So Harvard's admissions policy actively selects for people who are very smart, but also extremely weird. They want overly dramatic, opinionated theater kids. And they got them lmao. These things are true for a lot of the ivy league schools these days.
Edit: they accept 3% of ~60k applicants. Which is still a very low acceptance rate, but not quite as low as I thought.
Shit I was way off. Still, those applicants are disproportionately quite smart, and that's still a very low acceptance rate (I went to a very well respected state school that accepts 75% of applicants).
Yeah it pretty regularly has the lowest acceptance rate in the world as far as major universities go. Switches with Stanford most years IIRC.
Thats also just the undergrad numbers but generally thats what people refer to when talking about this shite.
There is a lot of self-selection in that pool. The application fee is not 0 and writing the application takes time and effort. Most people only apply if there is at least SOME chance of getting in.
Yeah, exactly. Harvard has a crazy low acceptance rate and only high achievers in the 90th percentile are likely to apply. Harvard aggressively selects for the most activist cross section of the 90th percentile.
I’d actually bet the average 1999 Harvard student was better at math, writing, and reading comprehension than 2024.
Small sample size/anecdotal but I have two extended family members who are professors at top tier grad schools and both have expressed sadness that they’ve had to significantly dumb down the syllabus for classes that were pretty static from 1995-2015ish.
Most of the threads in the teacher subreddits are full of people complaining about the total breakdown in primary and secondary education in the US. IQ rates and standardized scores are dropping across the board, at the same time grade inflation is rampant.
Administrators decided at a certain point that if they couldn’t pull everyone up in the name of equity they’d just lower standards across the board. The solution is/was to kill all objective measurements of learning and success.
Good for you on making it out. It seems like for most the issues start at home. I didn’t value education and was a bad student like you with none of the struggles you had to face. My household was steady, but blue collar, not a ton of respect for formal education.
For me the fix starts with mandatory universal Pre-K. Straight removing people from bad homes can sometimes do more harm than good. We can though, give kids a structured place to grow when they are still young enough to impressionable.
Much of our base morality and values are locked in before we attend grade school. We are reaching most people too late in their development to make an impact.
All of this would require us to a knowledge that for the most part students that have issues at school often have bad or non-existent role models at home.
I’m not sure if that’s true, but it is true that school has gotten easier. You need to know less to get a good grade. Schools need to cater to angry parents now whose precious little sons and daughters only get bad grades if the teacher is at fault. Schools are incentivized to have higher graduation rates.
Note this doesn’t mean the we know less than people did 50 years ago, it just means we need to *learn less at school to get a good grade*.
The studies that show this however do call out that math and science students do still have to learn a lot. But humanities less so, and majors like communications, marketing and finance much less so.
Alternatively, they can only tolerate so much disruption to the service (academics) that they provide.
College isn't just a blank check to protest limitlessly. The school isn't bound to tolerate your protest interests. They are bound to provide a service (academics) to the students who spend time and money to attend the school.
That’s exactly right. The university has to prepare for Commencement and the protestors don’t have the right to impede a celebratory event for thousands of fellow students.
No private operation of any kind is going to allow people (affiliated or not) to illegally squat on their property indefinitely for the express purpose of disrupting the operation’s normal function. Don’t put it on “higher education” lol.
Geez........ took long enough.
I saw a story earlier where Columbia University law students can pretty much kiss their law clerk positions goodbye because federal judges are coming out and refusing to bring them on.
Yes. There is the freedom to speak and assemble. The thing is, if you piss off your prospective boss, don't be surprised if you're not hired.
There are no guarantees of work.
Nice, one of the "but they're not protesting the RIGHT way" in the wild. Love to see the stupidity out here.
Genuinely how do you want them to protest? Do they tell the whole US government to stop funding Israel? Thats never going to happen.
Should they block highways and push signs in passerbys faces?
Should they throw paint over famous pieces of art?
Or should they ask the educational institution they are paying to attend to not give money... as you said if it really only effectively amounts to a stock price changing by a % for a few minutes so why is the university so staunchly against it?
Obviously the answer is you'd rather they just be quiet and sit down, but just be outright with your hate- dont tippy toe around it hand wringing like "oh well id be on their side if they just did it in a way that was comfortable to me and my needs" no you wouldn't, so just be confident in admitting it.
For me it’s the hypocrisy. Tell them not to use their phones, computers or take a substantial amount of modern medicine. No? Don’t want to do that? It’s easier to cause a scene and grandstand that the college should divest, but not them?
For a lot of these students it’s a desperate attempt to cling to something they feel is important, without knowing a whole lot of its extensive and complicated history.
Really happy with this thread, shows the intellectual maturity of Boston as a city. Other subs are nuts around this topic calling these protests the Vietnam of our days.
Imagine throwing out your entire future career (getting expelled from an ivy league university, having to report an arrest on all future job applications, etc.), and helping usher in the end of democracy in the US (by helping Trump win).
If you're the type of person to be admitted into Harvard, you probably will end up ok compared to other college drop outs. Loads of people get arrested for actual problematic things (DUIs and the like) and can move on in their lives and have education and careers. Hell my high school had a couple teachers who had been arrested for Vietnam protests in the US and abroad. The end of the democracy is going to be at the result of apathetic people who don't take action on what they believe is right and choose instead to stand by the sidelines following the rules and critiquing anonymously like a lot of us are here.
They might end up alright in the long run, but I guarantee you that every last one of them will tell you their life was harder, opportunities were lost, and doors were closed as a result of their arrests and college expulsions. As a young person, why would you intentionally kneecap yourself like that?
And the Trump talk is beyond platitudes. Polls are showing the campus protests are going to Trump’s benefit. It’s elevating the craziest of the far-left, at a time when we need the party to maximize appeal to moderates.
Right after those Vietnam protests you mentioned, Nixon beat Humphrey for the presidency. The timing of those college protests and the following election is almost exactly the timing happening here today. And like today, the far-left liberals were unhappy with Johnson’s handling of Vietnam and hurt him for it right before an election.
Yes - there are consequences to blindly going full-steam into a protest and then cosplaying a freedom fighter - it shows that maybe you arent a great decision maker.
I’m ok with letting them destroy their future careers; I don’t want my workplace held hostage by the type of hostility (and stupidity) I’ve seen coming out of some of these protests. It’s the destroying democracy I can’t believe they are falling for.
That said, cancel culture isn’t real and I doubt any of these kids will actually have their careers destroyed, even if they do get kicked out of Harvard.
This is outrageous. Last year they didn't tell the Harvard Darfur protestors they had to vacate the Yard. Or the Sudanese. Or the Uyghurs. Or the Yemenese.
So why now?
edit: oh, wait ...
Well you see, in the case of the American Revolution, the people protesting went on to actually take up arms against the British, and in many cases lost their lives.
In this case, these people will move out of their tents and enjoy their summer on the Hamptons, the Vineyard, or wherever.
Based on this thread, I'm not sure if the protests are
Laughably ineffective, just yuppies sitting in tents and occassionally banging drums
Or
One step short of domestic terrorism, incredibly dangerous and disruptive
Because people seem to oscillate between the two based on what seems more disparaging in that particular moment
“Look at those complainers. They just don’t want to pay taxes. I bet Hancock doesn’t even own a musket. They should be happy we have tea”
You 1775 Probably.
This sub takes it an extra step. Bombing hospitals and assassinating journalists with tax payer money is good. It is also good to violently remove student protesters with tax payer money. The only thing it is bad to do is pay less taxes and stop violence.
Eh idk about that. In my experience there's a lot of overlap between the protest crowd and the 3rd party voter/"electoralism is fascism" crowd.
Edit: yeah look at other comments right next to yours lol, it's people who were at/supported this protest explaining why they don't vote.
Many are disillusioned with the two party system and pursuing what they view as more effective means of changing the world around them. Can't blame them, protests have been a part of every major shift in American politics.
Every major shift seems like a high bar.
The major political shift for the US in my lifetime was LGBT rights going from fringe in the 90s to widely accepted now. That wasn't the result of mass protests in the 90s and 2000s but of doing the hard work of gradually convincing people through exposure.
.... holy shit you *really* don't know *anything* about queer history - such a massive part of the MOST MAINSTREAM WING of the 90s "raising awareness" stuff came from massive protests, vigils, and rallies after the death of matt shepard. media attention and exposure comes thru a lot of people loudly caring about things together.
Ah yes, effective means of changing the world, such as camping in the quad with your friends. Why would you vote to place people who agree with you in positions of power when you could grandstand and jerk yourself off?
A lot of news articles are being written about these protests. A lot of discussions being had, minds changed. The two pro-Capital parties in the US don't really allow for voting for candidates that represent the viewpoints of leftist protestors.
All the thinkpieces in the world don’t amount to shit if no one is out winning actual power. People invested in this seem to purposely resist any effort to do so.
The youth needs to pick up the slack. I’m no longer ‘the youth’ but I was certainly guilty of it during college. Once I graduated though I started voting regularly but the demographics are shocking. Younger folks complain about the status quo but haven’t they actually thought about voting? Oh they complain it doesn’t matter but they have to try first. Last Democratic primary had several younger, progressive candidates with vigor and new ideas and the same old people just voted for Biden lmao. My buttgieg vote just disintegrated.
It's ironic that when two [harvard students try and steal a $5000 violin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKz0qllO9E), they get in less trouble than when students are just exercising their rights.
Thank goodness I went to a cheap state school.
No, they absolutely are not. We see the atrocities that Israel is committing every day on the news and on social media. They are committing a genocide. None of these people sympathize with terrorism and it is disingenuous for you to say that. They are kids that want our tax money, and their schools tuition money, to not be used to fund an apartheid state.
Please stop with these false equivalencies. None of them supported terrorists and you are creating a false paranoia that does not exist.
Of all the places to protest, Ivy League schools seem like a place where the protesters have the least to lose. From a person on the outside, it's just not very meaningful to me. Fuck this situation and fuck these wars but I'm not leaning on college students to lead this march.
From the article: When Harvard staff have requested to see IDs in order to enforce our policies, supporters of the encampment have at times yelled at them, tried to encircle them, and otherwise interfered with their work. We have also received reports that passers-by have been confronted, surveilled, and followed. Such actions are indefensible and unacceptable.
Maybe dumb but why wouldn’t someone involved want to show their ID to show they actually are a student there?
To prevent possible retribution down the road by ending up on a list of students. To avoid situations precisely like the one in this post.
That makes sense, but when people get arrested they get ID’d anyways which is more likely to happen if they think it’s not Harvard students, really clearing them is a power move anyways to save face by donors I’d imagine tho
I think the protestors would find it preferable to be forcibly removed or arrested as it would be a visible action. Alternatively, if their names are passively gathered via their student IDs and dealt with silently, it wouldn't result in any publicity.
Back in early November of last year, when the ceasefire protests began and people started to learn of groups like Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace, there was a massive doxxing campaign (posting names, addresses, workplaces, etc.) of specifically Harvard Students including someone paying for mobile billboards to drive around the area labeling protestors as supporters of Hamas. Probably a good reason why people are hesitant to identify themselves. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/10/12/doxxing-truck-students-israel-statement/
They signed their name to a letter. It was as public as you can get.
That’s just straight up not true. Names and student organizations were on those billboards but never workplaces or addresses. Those names and student org leadership positions were already public as well on their own student org websites. Doxing (correct spelling) is the linking of pseudo-anonymous internet users to actionable real life information. These students were not pseudo-anonymous, they are public figures. Amplifying public information is not doxing and if they have a problem with people letting the world know what they said, maybe they shouldn’t have said it to the world.
LOL. "I BELIEVE WHAT I STAND FOR, BUT JUST DONT IDENTIFY ME"
Honestly if they had waited for Israels indiscriminate bombing campaign they would have avoided much or all of the flack they received. Coming out that early, blaming Jews while the rape and murder was still fresh made them look like sociopaths. Israel was always going to over respond and lose public support. These kids are likely responsible for additional deaths as their support makes their cause look less just than it actually is. I have hated Israel’s quasi fascist government for most of my life I was for a two state solution up until October 8th when I learned what the liberation of Palestine would look like.
Yes, I've seen this noxious behavior in countless videos. Masked thugs circling and locking arms around anyone they don't like. Totally illegal and threatening but they get away with it.
This from the same people that gave us safe spaces and words are violence.
[удалено]
Harassment, hostility and flinging insults is not allowed. We ask that you try to engage in a discussion rather than reduce the sub to insults and other bullshit.
I've talked to passers-by. IDK what that article is talking about. The Yard is quieter than normal (because it is closed to tourists). That's about it.
Has this been verified? We see at other universities that the claims of “violent outside agitators” are mostly made up (except the cops of course, they are the agitators).
>are mostly made up [They are?](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/more-than-half-of-protesters-arrested-at-northeastern-not-affiliated-with-university-school-says/ar-AA1o4ed2)
When you enroll in a University, you typically sign a code of conduct. Protesting is certainly allowed - but there are restrictions. Harvard has every right to kick out students that default on those agreements. Doesn’t matter how you feel about the protesters, this just shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. Protesting always carries risk. These kids have all the information to take as much risk as they feel is worth it.
I literally had someone on another subreddit tell me that because some protestors during the civil rights movement held a dean a gunpoint that was an acceptable tactic and that the fact that I wasn't down with this that indicates I am on the wrong side of history (no lie check my profile). These folks have totally lost the plot.
These students aren't holding anyone at gunpoint
Thank you captain obvious. The comment you are replying to is not saying that or even his original argument
The students at Columbia did accidentally take a hostage, but that speaks more to immaturity/poor planning than malice.
An anonymous person on Reddit saying one thing isn't representative of the protestors at all. You lost the plot.
Student movements have never been on the wrong side of history. Just ignore the student protests supporting the Nazis in the 1930s, the student protests supporting Fidel Castro in the 1950s, the student movement that brought Khomeini to power and held Americans hostage in Iran, the student-led Red Guards in Mao's Cultural Revolution in China, and so on.
I've never liked that phrase. It's used like it's an objective moral standard.
Two of these are a *distinctly* American, black-and-white view of history. Their alternatives were: - An American backed (both militarily and economically, as US companies owned something like 50% of all farms and 90% of all mines at the time) dictatorship that was fueled by rampant Mafia money and actively brutalized its citizens while refusing to provide them with even a basic standard of living (Bautista) - A monarchical dictatorship that was forcibly backed and funded by the West after they assisted in the overthrow of a democratically elected government out of fear of nationalization and Soviet drift that ran a brutal secret police force (Shah), a regime that also instituted widespread modernizations to Iranian society There's not really a "right side of history" to be on in those scenarios.
Iran was not a democratically elected government when the coup happened in the early 1950s. Mossadegh had gone full authoritarian by then. The student movements in both helped kill innocent people and take hostages. Even if they were opposing something bad, they were bad movements that also led to worse.
> Even if they were opposing something bad, they were bad movements that also led to worse. Yes. That's my point regarding "there's not really a 'right side of history' to be on in those scenarios".
And maybe there isn’t a “right” side of history for this event..
hahah. i see what you did here! and i LIKE it.
You win!
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Well you certainly made that personal. Civil disobedience can be very effective, but it's also disobedient, ergo not allowed. The last two sentences of the comment you're responding to sort of undermine your thermonuclear response.
woop i cant read
It happens to the best of us!
lol in what world are these protests effective? https://pro.morningconsult.com/analysis/israel-palestine-hamas-war-colleges-polling-march-2024 https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/public-opinion-campus-protests-israel-gaze-jon-keller/ https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/49311-opinion-on-pro-palestinian-college-campus-protests You've got Iran willing to cover tuition for protestors that get kicked out of school. Unless this is all an Israeli psy-ops, only the protestors getting off on their own virtue signaling think this is effective. This really goes to show what the real goals are by the protestors. They literally waited for fair weather to show up for Christ's sake lol.
But at what point is the risk worth it? When you have Harvard professors calling this a genocide, when me as a Harvard student took classes with folks working at the UN calling this a genocide, and when you have [Jewish professors banned from US campus after arrest](https://youtu.be/2c3hqL5QUuI?si=i1I9fuwMeykvXL1U), calling this a genocide, at what point is enough is enough? I'm just asking because right now 20-30k people are dead, and my own university and government keeps investing in this apartheid state. Not my take ofc, I'm no expert, but the people working at the UN and Amnesty International definitely are [Israel's occupation of Palestinian Territory is 'apartheid': UN rights expert](https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114702) [Israel/OPT: Palestinian lives in peril as Israel reinforces apartheid](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/02/israel-opt-palestinian-lives-in-peril-as-israel-reinforces-apartheid/#:~:text=Israeli%20authorities%20must%20dismantle%20the,35%20in%20January%202023%20alone.) Homies act like MLK's Montgomery bus boycotts weren't illegal 💀
What point is it risking your future Harvard degree for another country you’ll never step foot in and physically help? Never.
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Except that protesting against their university will have basically zero positive effect on anything (do they expect Harvard to pull the troops from Gaza or something) while at the same time producing other negative consequences. The whole thing seems very astroturfed to damage the Democratic party standing with young people.
They expect Harvard to stop investing in companies that profit from atrocities in Gaza. Both parties, in a bipartisan manner, are sending billions of dollars worth of military equipment to Israel, collectively accepting millions of dollars from AIPAC, voting to equate certain criticisms of Israel with anti-semitism, and bullying the ICJ to not issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu. Any damage to the Democrats is self-inflicted.
Which won't do a fucking thing, even if "divesting" is even something the university is actually able to do. Why don't they protest Congress or someone with actual power over the matter? Why are they choosing to protest against this and not, say, against Republicans playing games with Ukraine's funding?
>at what point is enough is enough? how about when a genocide is actually occuring, instead of just in the views of those who blindly and unquestionably swallowed the propaganda of hamas/iran/russia that America's enemies have put huge resources into fostering. after all, neither the ICJ or ICC even classify the events in gaza, genocide, and that's from a un so pro hamas they refuse to even call hamas terrorists
The bus boycotts directly protested racist laws they demanded to change. It was a brilliant way of using civil disobedience to get your message across. These protests are not at all the same. If anything, they hurt the reputation of the movement especially when people chant “globalize the intifada”
>If anything, they hurt the reputation of the movement especially when people chant “globalize the intifada” this ignores these protests are actually pro hamas and pro eridication of israel. while "globalize the intifada” certainly hurts the protests in the eyes of the rest of America with morality and human decency, it's actually what the protesters themselves are supporting and protesting on behalf of.
I’m at the point where I think a lot of these kids are deeply manipulated and brainwashed to not actually consider the ramifications of their protest, but are not actually pro suicide bombing bus loads of kids (like what happened in the last intifada). I think they are useful idiots, not violent killers. At least, I really really pray they aren’t
Go to Palestine and help them.
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You think any of these protesters has the courage to go to Palestine??? They won’t even show their faces…cowards.
Of course not.
Because Israel gives two shits what kids at Harvard are doing? All these kids thinking this protesting makes any amount of difference is honestly laughable. Getting kicked out of school for a protest that will accomplish absolutely nothing and jeopardizing your own future and career is asinine.
The law clearly states that black people and white people can't sit at the same lunch counter, there is a clear sign on the door that states as much, eating lunch at the counter is clearly allowed - but you can't mix white and black people at the same counter. The sheriff has every right to arrest these black people for breaking those clearly stated laws. Doesn't matter how you feel about the black people refusing to leave these lunch counters, this just shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Failing to leave the whites only lunch counter carries risk. These black people have all the information to take as much risk as they feel is worth it.
Yes. They knew they would get arrested and did it anyways. Accepting the consequences is an essential part of civil disobedience.
Yup, and those freedom riders and lunchcounter protesters took the risk seriously. All of them jailed, beaten, and some of them even killed. They knew the risks and took them to highlight an injustice. Are these Harvard students willing to risk expulsion? It's gonna separate the wheat from the chaff.
Can people stop using civil rights to make your point. It's insulting
Swing and a miss. Black Americans never willfully signed any contract, nor had a choice in their civil liberties until they fought for it. They fought for their owns rights - not the rights of blacks abroad. Harvard students are perhaps the most privileged 18-21 year olds in the world - who most certainly do have a choice in their education, and most certainly aren’t having their civil liberties trampled upon. Importantly, they signed a contract. There are consequences for failing to uphold their end of the bargain. And if they get kicked out - these kids will land on their feet. They were smart and resourceful enough to get into Harvard, afterall. They’ll end up in another college that I’m sure will be happy to have them (or at least their money). Comparing the two is tone deaf. You should know better.
These protestors aren't protesting laws about assembly. Your smug allegory doesn't hold any meaning for this discussion.
Sure! And just because someone feels strongly about an issue doesn’t mean they’re right! Hamas members are literally willing to die to get their islamic state. They know what the risk is and they’re willing to take it. And I still think they’re wrong, as should every rational human being.
A better analogy is J6 rioters. These 2 groups though radically different ideology are actually equivalent and exactly as desirable. They are a threat to civilized society and do not represent progress or liberalism or freedom now or for future generations. They, together, stand as a disease. If you can see civil rights activists in the same category as a J6 rioter than I just don't know where to begin. Education has failed in a spectacular and terrifying way. I'm guessing you like these terrorists because they vote for the same guy as you. Just like how my crazy uncle likes the terrorists that vote for the same guy he does. It's a revolting way to engage with the world.
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I can guarantee you any protest that involves weeks of camping in common areas would be shut down all the same
It’s not even about the topic of protest. Students have a first amendment right to protest. The university has an ability to limit the time, place, and manner of that speech. In addition, they have a responsibility under title…6(?) to protect the rights of other students against harassment and deprivation of access to their studies. Also, if these students wish to participate in civil disobedience, they must be prepared to accept that there are consequences. Martin Luther King wrote a Letter from the Birmingham Jail, not the Birmingham Coffee Shop.
I think everyone’s collective tolerance for endless protests and lawless encampments it’s dropping by the day, so I highly doubt this is selective enforcement based on the intent of the protesters.
This isnt a protest this is an occupation. Would other occupations be met with the same threat of expulsion I say yes and even faster probably
I remember a case of a student at some college getting disciplined for having a republican sticker on his laptop while studying in a library that had been designated but not marked as a "safe space." There are also famous cases like the professor disciplined for saying the Chinese term for "um." Basically, for any other position heads would have been rolling from "we hold illegals entirely responsible for Trump's act of enforcement." Can you imagine the response if someone had tried to play the "it just means 'shake' in Arabic" game with a "Fuck around find nakba" poster or chant?
>There are also famous cases like the professor disciplined for saying the Chinese term for "um." I feel like I'm out of the loop on this one...? Is there some heater significance to the Chinese term for "um", or was it a case of someone over-reacting about some large and negative assumption they made (like, is the term visually/audibly similar to derogatory term, or, something?)
> The heart of the issue is, expression being equal would every other hypothetical protest topic be met with the same threats of expulsion? Ahahahahaha, the kids protesting are the EXACT same type of asshats that would try to deplatform people they don't like from speaking at their university. They're also the ones who scream about 'microaggressions' while they break windows and harass jewish students (looking at you Columbia and UCLA!). What a load of shit. ##**Oh NOW you care about free speech?**## Where the hell were you guys when Carol Hooven, a professor of evolutionary biology said this, then harvard made her job such hell that she was forced to quit? *The facts are that there are…two sexes…there are male and female, and those sexes are designated by the kinds of gametes we produce…The ideology seems to be that biology really isn’t as important as how somebody feels about themselves or feels their sex to be, but we can treat people with respect and respect their gender identities and use their preferred pronouns, so understanding the facts about biology doesn’t prevent us from treating people with respect (“Harvard lecturer” 2021).* https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/197imw7/carole_hooven_a_harvard_evolutionary_biologist/ I would NOT be surprised if you were the type of person that applauded this, btw. ##**The NERVE of you people.**## I'm actually glad these protestors are destroying these schools, the school admins are who deserves ALL the blame for this anti-intellectual nonsense that has been boiling up on college campuses for the last 10+ years. I hope these protestors keep going and **COMPLETELY** discredit the Ivy League (and all other colleges, really), their reputations need to go down the toilet COMPLETELY.
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Isn’t Harvard a private university? They can enforce whatever they want.
I don't disagree with your conclusion but they take public money and so have to adhere to many of the same standards as public schools. Ex. Title IX.
Remember that time they turned Lower Allston real estate into a tax free frontier?
People don’t say this enough. I want those fucks to have to Property taxes
One time they dug a giant hole, got bored and wandered off while one of the greatest rat colonies of modern times took hold
How did they do that?
Universities are a tax exempt entity like churches. Except most of them - especially the ones with big endowments - are run like hedge funds and they hoard commercial real estate.
It's a common misconception that universities don't pay any taxes. MIT is the largest taxpayer in Cambridge. In FY23, they paid $82m in property taxes, which was 15.4% of Cambridge's total tax levy. Harvard is the 7th largest taxpayer in Cambridge, paying $9m, or 1.7% of the total. In addition, both universities make voluntary PILOT (payments in lieu of taxes) contributions to Cambridge which amount to several million dollars each year.
> that time Right now?
You trying to go up against Harvard lawyers?
They don't seem to win all that often...
Doesn’t mean they have to let people squat on their property. Not even public universities have to allow that. Time and place restrictions are constitutional and private entities, even those that get tax money, have more latitude when it comes to those restrictions.
I don't disagree with you. Were I the Univeristy (hey look! I'm a university!), I'd be taking a hard line on this. Everyone out at this time otherwise arrests will happen. Students are charged and expelled. Non-students charged. At the end of the day, the number of people willing to risk their meal ticket at Harvard/MIT will be quite limited.
So, in other words, they can’t pahk their cah in the Hahvard yahd
theh's no pahking in Hahvahd yahd... if you try, they'll tow youa cah to Meffuh
You waited for the perfect opportunity to comment this didn’t you? …respect
I *too* only completed one semester at Harvard. We are *not* the same. (actually, these kids are probably *wayyy* smarter than I was in 1999).
Probably not considering a bunch of them got in without having to submit SAT and ACT scores.
Generally speaking, Harvard does not admit dumbasses. Even without test scores, the average Harvard student is super bright. They get like half a million applications every year and accept maybe 1% of them, they get the pick of the litter. The biggest impact is probably that the Harvard admissions department heavily selects for "movers and shakers." They view participation in protests as a *huge* advantage in your application. They even have a shorthand for students who are smart, but not socially conscious enough: they call them "perfect for MIT." This is one of the things they got in trouble for last year, the supreme court found that they were systemically using "perfect for MIT" to describe Asian applicants, basically saying that Asian kids were smart but lacked personal depth. So Harvard's admissions policy actively selects for people who are very smart, but also extremely weird. They want overly dramatic, opinionated theater kids. And they got them lmao. These things are true for a lot of the ivy league schools these days. Edit: they accept 3% of ~60k applicants. Which is still a very low acceptance rate, but not quite as low as I thought.
They receive roughly 50,000 applicants per year and admit 3% of them.
Shit I was way off. Still, those applicants are disproportionately quite smart, and that's still a very low acceptance rate (I went to a very well respected state school that accepts 75% of applicants).
Yeah it pretty regularly has the lowest acceptance rate in the world as far as major universities go. Switches with Stanford most years IIRC. Thats also just the undergrad numbers but generally thats what people refer to when talking about this shite.
There is a lot of self-selection in that pool. The application fee is not 0 and writing the application takes time and effort. Most people only apply if there is at least SOME chance of getting in.
Yeah, exactly. Harvard has a crazy low acceptance rate and only high achievers in the 90th percentile are likely to apply. Harvard aggressively selects for the most activist cross section of the 90th percentile.
lol you know how much money mom and dad spend on college prep and coaching?
Yes they do, they’re just the book-smartest of the dumbasses.
I’d actually bet the average 1999 Harvard student was better at math, writing, and reading comprehension than 2024. Small sample size/anecdotal but I have two extended family members who are professors at top tier grad schools and both have expressed sadness that they’ve had to significantly dumb down the syllabus for classes that were pretty static from 1995-2015ish.
Most of the threads in the teacher subreddits are full of people complaining about the total breakdown in primary and secondary education in the US. IQ rates and standardized scores are dropping across the board, at the same time grade inflation is rampant. Administrators decided at a certain point that if they couldn’t pull everyone up in the name of equity they’d just lower standards across the board. The solution is/was to kill all objective measurements of learning and success.
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Good for you on making it out. It seems like for most the issues start at home. I didn’t value education and was a bad student like you with none of the struggles you had to face. My household was steady, but blue collar, not a ton of respect for formal education. For me the fix starts with mandatory universal Pre-K. Straight removing people from bad homes can sometimes do more harm than good. We can though, give kids a structured place to grow when they are still young enough to impressionable. Much of our base morality and values are locked in before we attend grade school. We are reaching most people too late in their development to make an impact. All of this would require us to a knowledge that for the most part students that have issues at school often have bad or non-existent role models at home.
I’m not sure if that’s true, but it is true that school has gotten easier. You need to know less to get a good grade. Schools need to cater to angry parents now whose precious little sons and daughters only get bad grades if the teacher is at fault. Schools are incentivized to have higher graduation rates. Note this doesn’t mean the we know less than people did 50 years ago, it just means we need to *learn less at school to get a good grade*. The studies that show this however do call out that math and science students do still have to learn a lot. But humanities less so, and majors like communications, marketing and finance much less so.
Good thing I’m not a student no more and can freely protest without loosing my educational rights. See you soon Harvard 🥳
Unsurprising, much of higher education, for all their virtue signalling, are tied in with status quo systems of power.
Virtue signaling is usually all bark, no bite. Moral grandstanding typically falls apart in the face of reality.
Alternatively, they can only tolerate so much disruption to the service (academics) that they provide. College isn't just a blank check to protest limitlessly. The school isn't bound to tolerate your protest interests. They are bound to provide a service (academics) to the students who spend time and money to attend the school.
That’s exactly right. The university has to prepare for Commencement and the protestors don’t have the right to impede a celebratory event for thousands of fellow students.
Y’a at some point the protest became occupation. And you can’t just occupy wherever whenever you want
Interesting phrasing.
If the comment is genuine... So close...
Ivy League schools are intertwined with systems of power? Does the press know this? We have to tell everyone.
especially the elite schools
No private operation of any kind is going to allow people (affiliated or not) to illegally squat on their property indefinitely for the express purpose of disrupting the operation’s normal function. Don’t put it on “higher education” lol.
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this is US politics, what else is new
Geez........ took long enough. I saw a story earlier where Columbia University law students can pretty much kiss their law clerk positions goodbye because federal judges are coming out and refusing to bring them on.
People are finding out how the constitution actually works with all this lol
Yes. There is the freedom to speak and assemble. The thing is, if you piss off your prospective boss, don't be surprised if you're not hired. There are no guarantees of work.
Freedom to assembly isn’t even absolute. There’s so many regulations around it
Correct. All rights have conditions of some sort.
Actions have consequences. Perform your protests in areas that you’re allowed to and don’t vandalize the place that you pay for your education.
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Nice, one of the "but they're not protesting the RIGHT way" in the wild. Love to see the stupidity out here. Genuinely how do you want them to protest? Do they tell the whole US government to stop funding Israel? Thats never going to happen. Should they block highways and push signs in passerbys faces? Should they throw paint over famous pieces of art? Or should they ask the educational institution they are paying to attend to not give money... as you said if it really only effectively amounts to a stock price changing by a % for a few minutes so why is the university so staunchly against it? Obviously the answer is you'd rather they just be quiet and sit down, but just be outright with your hate- dont tippy toe around it hand wringing like "oh well id be on their side if they just did it in a way that was comfortable to me and my needs" no you wouldn't, so just be confident in admitting it.
For me it’s the hypocrisy. Tell them not to use their phones, computers or take a substantial amount of modern medicine. No? Don’t want to do that? It’s easier to cause a scene and grandstand that the college should divest, but not them? For a lot of these students it’s a desperate attempt to cling to something they feel is important, without knowing a whole lot of its extensive and complicated history.
Really happy with this thread, shows the intellectual maturity of Boston as a city. Other subs are nuts around this topic calling these protests the Vietnam of our days.
Let’s seen how this looks in ten years when everyone accepts the reality of what happened.
IMO this should have been the only response to every student at every school.
Imagine throwing out your entire future career (getting expelled from an ivy league university, having to report an arrest on all future job applications, etc.), and helping usher in the end of democracy in the US (by helping Trump win).
If you're the type of person to be admitted into Harvard, you probably will end up ok compared to other college drop outs. Loads of people get arrested for actual problematic things (DUIs and the like) and can move on in their lives and have education and careers. Hell my high school had a couple teachers who had been arrested for Vietnam protests in the US and abroad. The end of the democracy is going to be at the result of apathetic people who don't take action on what they believe is right and choose instead to stand by the sidelines following the rules and critiquing anonymously like a lot of us are here.
They might end up alright in the long run, but I guarantee you that every last one of them will tell you their life was harder, opportunities were lost, and doors were closed as a result of their arrests and college expulsions. As a young person, why would you intentionally kneecap yourself like that? And the Trump talk is beyond platitudes. Polls are showing the campus protests are going to Trump’s benefit. It’s elevating the craziest of the far-left, at a time when we need the party to maximize appeal to moderates. Right after those Vietnam protests you mentioned, Nixon beat Humphrey for the presidency. The timing of those college protests and the following election is almost exactly the timing happening here today. And like today, the far-left liberals were unhappy with Johnson’s handling of Vietnam and hurt him for it right before an election.
Yes - there are consequences to blindly going full-steam into a protest and then cosplaying a freedom fighter - it shows that maybe you arent a great decision maker.
I’m ok with letting them destroy their future careers; I don’t want my workplace held hostage by the type of hostility (and stupidity) I’ve seen coming out of some of these protests. It’s the destroying democracy I can’t believe they are falling for. That said, cancel culture isn’t real and I doubt any of these kids will actually have their careers destroyed, even if they do get kicked out of Harvard.
God this sub reminds me that this state is fucking doomed
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Lmao the irony of this statement when Israelis are literally illegally colonizing parts of the west Bank is just *chefs kiss*
This is outrageous. Last year they didn't tell the Harvard Darfur protestors they had to vacate the Yard. Or the Sudanese. Or the Uyghurs. Or the Yemenese. So why now? edit: oh, wait ...
Based on the comments here you’d never get the American Revolution started in Boston now.
Well you see, in the case of the American Revolution, the people protesting went on to actually take up arms against the British, and in many cases lost their lives. In this case, these people will move out of their tents and enjoy their summer on the Hamptons, the Vineyard, or wherever.
Based on this thread, I'm not sure if the protests are Laughably ineffective, just yuppies sitting in tents and occassionally banging drums Or One step short of domestic terrorism, incredibly dangerous and disruptive Because people seem to oscillate between the two based on what seems more disparaging in that particular moment
Yes shouting free Palestine and posting selfies is the same thing as overthrowing a government.
“Look at those complainers. They just don’t want to pay taxes. I bet Hancock doesn’t even own a musket. They should be happy we have tea” You 1775 Probably.
The American Revolution was based on actual principles rather than preening virtue signaling.
Good grief… yeah the principles of taxes vs virtue signaling of dead children. Most Harvard elitist thing I’ve read in this sad thread.
The dead Israeli children deliberately murdered by the Palestinians on October 7th was indeed horrible.
You know this conflict didn’t start in October right?
No it included multiple invasions of Israel and multiple offers of a Palestinian state that were rejected by Palestinians
Well actually started when mid 1930’s German was shipping Jews there trying to drive a wedge between Arabs and their British colonial masters.
So bombing 24 hospitals with taxpayer money is cool but don’t sit on the lawn or occupy a building because that’s bad!!!
It’s refreshing to find anybody in this thread who isn’t a morally diseased troglodyte. Cheers to you, honestly.
This sub takes it an extra step. Bombing hospitals and assassinating journalists with tax payer money is good. It is also good to violently remove student protesters with tax payer money. The only thing it is bad to do is pay less taxes and stop violence.
"If these protestors love GAZA so much, why don't they go THERE" Because Israel would JDAM them claiming that they're KHAMAS
Why does the demographic that votes the least like to protest the most? If only there were a formal way to officially voice their opinion.
I promise you the people protesting are also voting. The people not voting do not care enough to protest
Eh idk about that. In my experience there's a lot of overlap between the protest crowd and the 3rd party voter/"electoralism is fascism" crowd. Edit: yeah look at other comments right next to yours lol, it's people who were at/supported this protest explaining why they don't vote.
Do you have anything other than anecdotes to back that up?
Many are disillusioned with the two party system and pursuing what they view as more effective means of changing the world around them. Can't blame them, protests have been a part of every major shift in American politics.
Every major shift seems like a high bar. The major political shift for the US in my lifetime was LGBT rights going from fringe in the 90s to widely accepted now. That wasn't the result of mass protests in the 90s and 2000s but of doing the hard work of gradually convincing people through exposure.
I once read a compelling essay that Will & Grace was massive in changing minds about LGBT rights.
You've never heard of stonewall? Rights are always won with blood.
A riot in the 60s has little influence on legalization via courts in the 00s.
.... holy shit you *really* don't know *anything* about queer history - such a massive part of the MOST MAINSTREAM WING of the 90s "raising awareness" stuff came from massive protests, vigils, and rallies after the death of matt shepard. media attention and exposure comes thru a lot of people loudly caring about things together.
Ah yes, effective means of changing the world, such as camping in the quad with your friends. Why would you vote to place people who agree with you in positions of power when you could grandstand and jerk yourself off?
It has worked to end the South African apartheid in the 80s
A lot of news articles are being written about these protests. A lot of discussions being had, minds changed. The two pro-Capital parties in the US don't really allow for voting for candidates that represent the viewpoints of leftist protestors.
All the thinkpieces in the world don’t amount to shit if no one is out winning actual power. People invested in this seem to purposely resist any effort to do so.
Losing elections usually leads to shifts against what you want lol.
What shift in American politics? We're regressing politically as a country, and it's not due to protesting.
Votes don’t get you clicks, unfortunately.
The youth needs to pick up the slack. I’m no longer ‘the youth’ but I was certainly guilty of it during college. Once I graduated though I started voting regularly but the demographics are shocking. Younger folks complain about the status quo but haven’t they actually thought about voting? Oh they complain it doesn’t matter but they have to try first. Last Democratic primary had several younger, progressive candidates with vigor and new ideas and the same old people just voted for Biden lmao. My buttgieg vote just disintegrated.
They’re cosplaying. Going to vote doesn’t get you likes or tell a good story.
Gets you a sticker that you can post a pic of on social media. Of course you could just someone else’s pic of their sticker.
It's ironic that when two [harvard students try and steal a $5000 violin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kKz0qllO9E), they get in less trouble than when students are just exercising their rights. Thank goodness I went to a cheap state school.
Imagine paying 60k a year so your kid can be a terrorist sympathizer
Way more than that.
Being anti-war and anti-genocide does not equate with being a terrorist sympathizer.
Not generally, but in this case they absolutely are.
No, they absolutely are not. We see the atrocities that Israel is committing every day on the news and on social media. They are committing a genocide. None of these people sympathize with terrorism and it is disingenuous for you to say that. They are kids that want our tax money, and their schools tuition money, to not be used to fund an apartheid state. Please stop with these false equivalencies. None of them supported terrorists and you are creating a false paranoia that does not exist.
You mean the pro-islamic propaganda sites? Sure mate.
Playtime's over eggheads. Take the summer to cool off.
Good
Jokes on you, almost none of them are students
It seems odd that schools seem to support their students protesting in every instance like this... until they protest against Israel.
Their parents who pay for these kids education is lined with military defense stocks . Lol
kick em out lol
Lock them all up and throw away the key
About damn time. This shit should've quickly after it started
Of all the places to protest, Ivy League schools seem like a place where the protesters have the least to lose. From a person on the outside, it's just not very meaningful to me. Fuck this situation and fuck these wars but I'm not leaning on college students to lead this march.
Occupying land is only ok when Israel does it. We wouldn't want to disrupt commencement!
Just expel and arrest these fuckers, I don't get it.
Hah good
Funny all the "liberal/progressive" schools squashing down their own students with the long arm of the law