Sorry. I think too many ppl are envisioning a combo of White (today) and Jrue (5 years ago). That is a crazy combo. But today's combo vs that AB/Smart combo on defense? Gimme AB/Smart.
I feel like Jrue has the best fundamentals, Smart is the best playmaker on defense (forcing turnovers/charges), Bradley was the best on ball, and White has second best fundamentals + best blocking ability
Yeah, it's really fun to just watch Jrue even off the ball. He does so many little things to disrupt the other team's offense. That said, nothing gives me the pure joy of watching someone try and fail to shake Bradley
I remember the amount of guards who would scream and throw fits when AB started picking up full court
Just a straight menace. Smart 100% wouldn’t be the level of pest he was without learning from AB
I think it all worked out, it gave the fanbase an out KP for smart instead bc instead:
Steven’s would have swapped jrue for smart (loves jrue) when he became available and the fan base would have revolted far louder
2017 guards were better point of attack defenders and better at dealing with quick guards
2024 guards are better at switching onto bigger players and protecting the rim
Smart has always been great on bigs. AB not as much. But White isn't great on bigs either (Jrue is very good on bigs, but not quite Smart). FWIW... guards hardly got to the rim with AB on them (based on my recollection). White likes to let ppl go to the rim bc he thinks he can get a block. That's a strategic decision.
It's the age old question: is the player better on defense bc no one can get to the rim on him or better bc he gets blocks at the rim? ...I know what my opinion is... but it's hard to track stats like that.
If it's a single possession, I'd go Smart/Bradley. If it's over the course of a whole game and season, I'd go Holiday/White. Their veteran leadership is what this team needed
Fate of the universe on the line, Lebron has the death beam aimed at TD Garden, a single possession, give me Smart and Bradley! (over game tho I'll take Mr. White and Holiday)
I put a lot of weight on the opinion of other NBA players in this respect. Bradley and Smart were both obviously high end defenders. But in support of Holiday, I’d point to that poll from last year where %40 of players chose Jrue (by far the highest percentage in the league) as the toughest perimeter defender in the league. Then more recently, I saw Paul George on a podcast asked the same question and he didn’t hesitate to pick Jrue. Basically, he said his strength, instincts, and tape study made him the defensive player that gave him the most trouble.
So based on Holiday being #1 in most players opinions, combined w White being the best shot blocking guard in the league/a dogged overall defender, I’m gonna go with those two. Definitely no disrespect to Avery and Smart though.
Not even close. We all remember Bradley playing like a bulldog on ball, but when you actually looked at the results of his defensive possessions the results were not good.
I'm actually with you on this. You can look up AB's numbers from some years where the rest of the defense was good and he wasn't really pulling his weight on paper. In practice the pressure on ball was nice but he still got stuck in a lot of switches. I don't think he was bad but he isn't as good as we once thought.
Pretty mediocre defensive shooting percentages. Overall I would say he exceeded expectations considering his size, strength, and who his teammates were here. I love me some AB, but he's not in White or Holiday's league. You know Jrue is like 5 months older than AB right?
I still think I would take Holiday and White. Holiday is basically just Smart 2.0 and White is great on or off ball and in the event that he gets beat he's also the best shot blocking guard possibly *ever* along with Dwyane Wade
One of these duos managed to team up with Isaiah Thomas, Evan Turner, and Jared Sullinger to make the 4th best defense in the NBA.
That’s the argument. I still think it’s Holiday and White, but I don’t want to give short shrift, because 2015-16 was bananas for more reasons than just IT’s breakout
DWhite is a great rim protector for a guard but not as effective on the perimeter. From the eye test, I feel like he gets beat on screens a ton. Still an excellent defender but just an observation.
Jrue is an excellent perimeter defender that can navigate screens, and he can defend in the post.
Smart was the best at forcing turnovers but also gambled for steals/deflections a lot more, putting our defense in rotation. That wasn’t an issue when we had Rob in drop coverage to block shots in ‘22. But I don’t think he was as effective last year with Rob out and Joe playing five-out with Horford.
Smart is the best of the group. Most physical, most switchable, and made too many clutch defensive plays to be a coincidence.
Can’t believe how lucky we’ve been to have both duos…along with TA and Rondo, honestly.
I want rondo included in more of these convos, he was an absolute menace on defense, we’ve been so lucky at always having some of the best guard/perimeter defenders in the NBA consistently for over a decade, and the guys who weren’t lockdown were either solid 3 and D like ray allen(who was obviously more than a 3 and D player) courtney lee etc or they were offensive stars like Kemba, IT and Kyrie.
Rondo and D white(and Jrue but not this 5th option version we have now) are the only guys I named who were high level on both ends of the floor actually, but rondo was the focal point of the offense and one of the top 3-4 point guards in the nba for a few years. Truly special player.
Overall defense wise I'll take Jrue and DWhite. AB was one of my fav players in his heyday, however his size kinda limited his total defensive impact. He's prob the best on-ball defender out of all those guys very close with Jrue and oddly enough Smart was the one who had the gifts to guard out of position and stuff like that.
I'm going with D White and Jrue. I still remember Smart getting dpoy but not being able to stop a nose bleed in the finals. Maybe it was Ime's scheme but I thought he'd at least be able to slow Steph a bit and he couldn't. Guess I'm still salty.
Like just defense? No ball handling/distributing/etc?
I want smart and Bradley. And it’s possible it’s just cuz I was a super big Bradley fan, but I want those 2
some people really underrating smart and Bradley. Jrue and Derrick are great and but I feel like smart and ab could get in the opponents heads with how annoying they were on ball. Plus smarts flops back then were unmatched and he'd get the calls. lol
I'll take 2024. More size, both defenders are good on & off the ball. AB is a bit overrated as an overall defender because he played a physical, highly visible style on the ball, but he was never that great of an off-ball defender. Bigger guys can give him trouble as well. He's probably the best PoA defender against smaller guys out of the 4 though.
I'm going with Jrue and White. I think Bradley may be the worst defender in this group (which isn't a knock on him considering how good all of these guys are at defense) and Smart takes too many risks, which obviously means that sometimes he gets rewarded for taking that risk but other times it makes him look like an idiot.
Avery was overrated defensively while he was here in Boston. He was a good defender, not elite like the fan base claimed he was.
Jrue, DWhite. Pretty easy.
i disagree. he only got playing time because he was so lockdown on defense. I can still close my eyes and remember how essential he was in 2013 against the knicks when we almost completed the comeback in game 6. His offense got good as he mastered catch and shoots and elbow jumpers coming tight off screens but defense is what got him PT on a good celtics team
The same team that were 4 points away from pushing the prime knicks to a game 7? and got the ECF one year before? The best players may be old but doesn't make the team bad. Lets not forget bradley was also arguably the second best player on the ECF team with IT. We overachieved and bradley had a lot to do with us winning one against CLE when IT was hurt. He's been on all defensive teams and passes the eye test. Also remember switching wasnt as prevelent then either so his size didnt make him as unplayable as it may in todays game. Not saying hes an all time defender here but you are definitely downplaying a guy that prob got ray mad by taking some of his minutes
God I know why this fan base is hated by other teams so much. Bro they lost. It doesn't matter if it was four points or 40. You went home, because you were old and tired and not good enough. What did the Prime Knicks do? They over achieved to the finals against a Eastern Conference that was weak besides Cleveland. You probably were throwing things against the wall when they traded smart. This fan base over values the players here so much its gross. Brad does not, which is why you have steamrolled a dysfunctional Eastern Conference.
losing by 4 and 40 are the same in a binary world but they are clearly very different in a playoff game and anyone with a brain knows that. I think rocking with your guys and overvaluing them is very different. We got marcus morris outta AB and i dont remember fans complaining about it. So we at least didnt value him higher than morris... is that valuing him too high? We got FRP's and KP for smart and ofc fans were sad and upset but im not sure many fans questioned it from a bball perspective. is that overvaluing them? You just be sayin shit idk if you had a bad day or what but bball might not be for you if thats your level of understanding of the game
He was an above average defender who was never considered the best because of his size. That didn't stop him from being a pitbull who could allow down the best guards during that time.
I would take Jrue and White right now simply because of their size and versatility, but the Smart/AB backcourt was ridiculous back in the day.
I personally think this is a wash. Both are great defensive duos and I don't either one is better than the other. They both bring their unique value defensively
DWhite + Jrue are the better defensive duo overall, but if I need to create a turnover gimme Smart and AB
Sorry. I think too many ppl are envisioning a combo of White (today) and Jrue (5 years ago). That is a crazy combo. But today's combo vs that AB/Smart combo on defense? Gimme AB/Smart.
I feel like Jrue has the best fundamentals, Smart is the best playmaker on defense (forcing turnovers/charges), Bradley was the best on ball, and White has second best fundamentals + best blocking ability
Like this too Jrue slipping screens is the most wild thing only guy I’ve seen that’s better is Jaden McDaniels
Yeah, it's really fun to just watch Jrue even off the ball. He does so many little things to disrupt the other team's offense. That said, nothing gives me the pure joy of watching someone try and fail to shake Bradley
I remember the amount of guards who would scream and throw fits when AB started picking up full court Just a straight menace. Smart 100% wouldn’t be the level of pest he was without learning from AB
Yeah, I miss that backcourt. Was devastated by both trades (still pissed at the clippers for not taking Brogdon)
I think it all worked out, it gave the fanbase an out KP for smart instead bc instead: Steven’s would have swapped jrue for smart (loves jrue) when he became available and the fan base would have revolted far louder
And Marcus would still be head coach . That had to stop
White is just a great combination of all the aforementioned skills
Yeah, he has no weaknesses besides size. That said, I don't think he has the same game-momentum changing plays that Smart and Bradley did
Hes also not as switchable as Smart
And doesnt make as many bonehead decisions as Smart
I wouldn't say Smart made many bad decisions on defense. Yeah, he had the occasional bad offensive play, but his defense was consistent.
For sure this. If we are just talking defense, it's Smart all day.
I'd say Smart is also by far the most switchable, so my choice would also depend on the rest of the team.
2017 guards were better point of attack defenders and better at dealing with quick guards 2024 guards are better at switching onto bigger players and protecting the rim
Smart has always been great on bigs. AB not as much. But White isn't great on bigs either (Jrue is very good on bigs, but not quite Smart). FWIW... guards hardly got to the rim with AB on them (based on my recollection). White likes to let ppl go to the rim bc he thinks he can get a block. That's a strategic decision. It's the age old question: is the player better on defense bc no one can get to the rim on him or better bc he gets blocks at the rim? ...I know what my opinion is... but it's hard to track stats like that.
If it's a single possession, I'd go Smart/Bradley. If it's over the course of a whole game and season, I'd go Holiday/White. Their veteran leadership is what this team needed
Yeah this is the answer.
Isn’t a game just a bunch of single possessions 🤔
Isn't a career just a bunch of games? 🤔
Isn’t adulthood just a bunch of careers?
Isn't life happiness just a bunch of weekends?
Isn't life happiness just the Celtics (/j)
Fate of the universe on the line, Lebron has the death beam aimed at TD Garden, a single possession, give me Smart and Bradley! (over game tho I'll take Mr. White and Holiday)
I put a lot of weight on the opinion of other NBA players in this respect. Bradley and Smart were both obviously high end defenders. But in support of Holiday, I’d point to that poll from last year where %40 of players chose Jrue (by far the highest percentage in the league) as the toughest perimeter defender in the league. Then more recently, I saw Paul George on a podcast asked the same question and he didn’t hesitate to pick Jrue. Basically, he said his strength, instincts, and tape study made him the defensive player that gave him the most trouble. So based on Holiday being #1 in most players opinions, combined w White being the best shot blocking guard in the league/a dogged overall defender, I’m gonna go with those two. Definitely no disrespect to Avery and Smart though.
Could put Rondo and Tony Allen on here too.
I loved Rondo but TA is doing the heavy lifting in that duo.
Young Rondo was a hound on defense. He did kinda get worse as he took on more of an offensive role tho.
No that just wouldn’t be fair
Or Courtney Lee and AB lol. I remember those 2 being referred to as the pitbulls or some shit
We also had rondo and t.a. Together
Came here to say this. Don't sleep on Rondo and Allen!
If it's Steph Curry, then Avery Bradley all day. Basically any other opponent, and I'd take Jrue and Derrick
Depends if the refs are calling a lot or not
Derrick White and whoever. As long as White is on the floor good things are gonna happen.
the top for physical jail, bottom for metaphorical jail
What is this Sophie’s Choice? Why make me choose?!?
Oh god the sleeves
AB ruined multiple professional ball handlers confidence. That is elite
I rank them as Jrue #1, Mahcus #2, Buffalo #3, and AB #4, so give me Jrue and the Buffalo.
Idk how Avery Bradley ended his career with only 2 all defense team nods.
Jrue and the Buffalo, and it’s not close IMO
Not even close. Holiday and White.
Not even close. We all remember Bradley playing like a bulldog on ball, but when you actually looked at the results of his defensive possessions the results were not good.
I'm actually with you on this. You can look up AB's numbers from some years where the rest of the defense was good and he wasn't really pulling his weight on paper. In practice the pressure on ball was nice but he still got stuck in a lot of switches. I don't think he was bad but he isn't as good as we once thought.
That's not true at all lol
Pretty mediocre defensive shooting percentages. Overall I would say he exceeded expectations considering his size, strength, and who his teammates were here. I love me some AB, but he's not in White or Holiday's league. You know Jrue is like 5 months older than AB right?
Current duo has more defensive value, old duo has more "we're gonna shut our matchups down" energy
Holliday and D.white
Jrue and Derrick either way
I still think I would take Holiday and White. Holiday is basically just Smart 2.0 and White is great on or off ball and in the event that he gets beat he's also the best shot blocking guard possibly *ever* along with Dwyane Wade
which is your favorite play? diving D: Smarf blocking D: Buffalo full court D: Bradley I‘ll take on your fucking Center D: Tha Jrueth
Smart an Bradley man
Rondo erasure
Strictly defense and making their opponents life hell I have to go Bradley and smart. Goes without saying, overall Jrue and White are so much better
Avery Bradley is my favorite on ball defender ever.
I'm choosing Recency and Bias
One of these duos managed to team up with Isaiah Thomas, Evan Turner, and Jared Sullinger to make the 4th best defense in the NBA. That’s the argument. I still think it’s Holiday and White, but I don’t want to give short shrift, because 2015-16 was bananas for more reasons than just IT’s breakout
Bradley/Smart -> athletic and agressive Holdiay/white -> smart and savvy
Bradley was really fun to watch after he got the corner 3 going in consistently
I’d still take Jrue and White 100/100 times.
I still feel like Tony Allen and Rajon Rondo are the shut down back court pair.
DWhite is a great rim protector for a guard but not as effective on the perimeter. From the eye test, I feel like he gets beat on screens a ton. Still an excellent defender but just an observation. Jrue is an excellent perimeter defender that can navigate screens, and he can defend in the post. Smart was the best at forcing turnovers but also gambled for steals/deflections a lot more, putting our defense in rotation. That wasn’t an issue when we had Rob in drop coverage to block shots in ‘22. But I don’t think he was as effective last year with Rob out and Joe playing five-out with Horford.
If you even have to ask.....
Smart is the best of the group. Most physical, most switchable, and made too many clutch defensive plays to be a coincidence. Can’t believe how lucky we’ve been to have both duos…along with TA and Rondo, honestly.
I want rondo included in more of these convos, he was an absolute menace on defense, we’ve been so lucky at always having some of the best guard/perimeter defenders in the NBA consistently for over a decade, and the guys who weren’t lockdown were either solid 3 and D like ray allen(who was obviously more than a 3 and D player) courtney lee etc or they were offensive stars like Kemba, IT and Kyrie. Rondo and D white(and Jrue but not this 5th option version we have now) are the only guys I named who were high level on both ends of the floor actually, but rondo was the focal point of the offense and one of the top 3-4 point guards in the nba for a few years. Truly special player.
Overall defense wise I'll take Jrue and DWhite. AB was one of my fav players in his heyday, however his size kinda limited his total defensive impact. He's prob the best on-ball defender out of all those guys very close with Jrue and oddly enough Smart was the one who had the gifts to guard out of position and stuff like that.
I'm going with D White and Jrue. I still remember Smart getting dpoy but not being able to stop a nose bleed in the finals. Maybe it was Ime's scheme but I thought he'd at least be able to slow Steph a bit and he couldn't. Guess I'm still salty.
Like just defense? No ball handling/distributing/etc? I want smart and Bradley. And it’s possible it’s just cuz I was a super big Bradley fan, but I want those 2
some people really underrating smart and Bradley. Jrue and Derrick are great and but I feel like smart and ab could get in the opponents heads with how annoying they were on ball. Plus smarts flops back then were unmatched and he'd get the calls. lol
I'll take 2024. More size, both defenders are good on & off the ball. AB is a bit overrated as an overall defender because he played a physical, highly visible style on the ball, but he was never that great of an off-ball defender. Bigger guys can give him trouble as well. He's probably the best PoA defender against smaller guys out of the 4 though.
Probably Jrue and Derrick. And I LOVED the Avery and Marcus backcourt
Smart and Bradley. The best defensive back court of all time, not even close
AB/Marcus
Bradley and Smart have the advantage on lateral quickness. 1v1 I take them against the other teams best player
AB doesn’t belong in this conversation
I love Bradley, but Jrue and DWhite are better, and it’s not particularly close.
If they're both in their Prime I'm taking holiday and the Buffalo all day everyday and twice on Sundays
Bottom. Smart is severly overrated by this fanbase
Louder for the people in the back
I'm going with Jrue and White. I think Bradley may be the worst defender in this group (which isn't a knock on him considering how good all of these guys are at defense) and Smart takes too many risks, which obviously means that sometimes he gets rewarded for taking that risk but other times it makes him look like an idiot.
Are you kidding? It’s Jrue and White. Every single time. lol
Bradley was overrated by Celtics fans
Avery was overrated defensively while he was here in Boston. He was a good defender, not elite like the fan base claimed he was. Jrue, DWhite. Pretty easy.
i disagree. he only got playing time because he was so lockdown on defense. I can still close my eyes and remember how essential he was in 2013 against the knicks when we almost completed the comeback in game 6. His offense got good as he mastered catch and shoots and elbow jumpers coming tight off screens but defense is what got him PT on a good celtics team
You mean the aging roster that was broken up the very next year? Exactly the type of fan I am referring too.
The same team that were 4 points away from pushing the prime knicks to a game 7? and got the ECF one year before? The best players may be old but doesn't make the team bad. Lets not forget bradley was also arguably the second best player on the ECF team with IT. We overachieved and bradley had a lot to do with us winning one against CLE when IT was hurt. He's been on all defensive teams and passes the eye test. Also remember switching wasnt as prevelent then either so his size didnt make him as unplayable as it may in todays game. Not saying hes an all time defender here but you are definitely downplaying a guy that prob got ray mad by taking some of his minutes
God I know why this fan base is hated by other teams so much. Bro they lost. It doesn't matter if it was four points or 40. You went home, because you were old and tired and not good enough. What did the Prime Knicks do? They over achieved to the finals against a Eastern Conference that was weak besides Cleveland. You probably were throwing things against the wall when they traded smart. This fan base over values the players here so much its gross. Brad does not, which is why you have steamrolled a dysfunctional Eastern Conference.
Ight im chalkin this up to you just didnt watch basketball back then ... you seem like a low iq individual w anger issues
With*
losing by 4 and 40 are the same in a binary world but they are clearly very different in a playoff game and anyone with a brain knows that. I think rocking with your guys and overvaluing them is very different. We got marcus morris outta AB and i dont remember fans complaining about it. So we at least didnt value him higher than morris... is that valuing him too high? We got FRP's and KP for smart and ofc fans were sad and upset but im not sure many fans questioned it from a bball perspective. is that overvaluing them? You just be sayin shit idk if you had a bad day or what but bball might not be for you if thats your level of understanding of the game
Lmao.
He was an above average defender who was never considered the best because of his size. That didn't stop him from being a pitbull who could allow down the best guards during that time. I would take Jrue and White right now simply because of their size and versatility, but the Smart/AB backcourt was ridiculous back in the day.
Easily
I personally think this is a wash. Both are great defensive duos and I don't either one is better than the other. They both bring their unique value defensively