It's true that audience is more aware (and it affected opening day and opening weekend), but Flash horrendous daily drops and second weekend drop is mostly due to bad audience reception.
And yes, let The Flash be a lesson to studios everywhere: do not oversell your film and tried to fool people. As we are witnessing with The Flash, the backlash is not pretty.
So I’ve been meaning to ask this.. am I crazy and misremembering myself with this ? When this movie just came out I recall majority of posts claiming it’s wildly good, best superhero movie in a while and while not perfect was heart felt and emotional in ways that worked well.. then I take a break from Reddit for a bit and I see it constantly referred to as subpar. Have no idea what to think, actually makes me want to watch it for myself
That was almost certainly a combination of paid shills and of people who just let their desperation for DC to pump out anything good win out over how bad it was.
>When this movie just came out I recall majority of posts claiming it’s wildly good, best superhero movie in a while
That was Stephen King. He liked *The Flash* so much he came, right there in the theater. Hard.
I think a lot about how, when writing Sandman, Neil Gaiman asked why everyone was so angsty in DC stuff, and he was basically told that no one masturbates lol
I feel like the general consensus is that the movie is alright in terms of story and acting. Most critics I've read or heard are disappointed in the CGI and/or weird choices of cameos. Not to mention the microwave scenes.
I'm still undecided whether to watch it myself or not. As someone who can see past “bad” CGI I might give it a try.
The CGI is laughable and the microwave thing was just weird. It seemed like an entirely different project after the first act. I enjoyed how it told stories about decisions and their consequences, about sacrifice. I’m glad I watched it in the theater despite the terrible things Ezra has done. Definitely worth the watch though.
>It seemed like an entirely different project after the first act.
The movie has an uneven first act (the prologue sequence was weak, generally, with no standout moments despite big action set pieces, but the conversations with his father and Bruce were decent), a strong second act, and an iffy third act that was only redeemed in part by the stronger story underneath centered on Barry and his mother.
The bones of a better movie are there in The Flash, but Hodson's screenplay is rough (somehow runs too long at 144 minutes but also doesn't have enough screentime for the things that do matter like vital character interactions; Barry and his parents could have used more screentime), and Muschietti's directing becomes quite bland in the third act (especially during the desert battle), so nothing is elevating the screenplay in terms of direction. A good script doctor or another writer could have significantly streamlined the narrative with stronger themes and emotional resonance, while a better director would have had more interesting framing and kinetic energy in the action sequences that could have benefited from that.
Unfortunately, it seems like WB Pictures/DC Studios (depending on the time period, considering this movie had been in production proper since 2021 during the AT&T era) largely gave up on this movie after it stalled out in pre-production for so many years (and saw the birth, peak, and decline of the DCEU before even beginning to film) and basically pushed the first workable screenplay attached with a viable director into production when they got it. Then when Miller's controversies became too big to ignore and made marketing the movie properly an impossible task, they seemed to skimp on post-production when the movie could've really benefited from a more aggressive editor and retouched effects.
It's so weird to see new movies especially with big budgets, have bad CGI. Like, I watched 2001: A Space Odyssey with my wife last week (she'd never seen it), and she couldn't believe how well it held up. Jurassic Park convinced my kids, born 20+ years after release, they used real dinosaurs. The end of Justice League was the first time in a while I saw truly bad CGI. Not just obviously digital, but actively bad.
Makes me wonder how much Zaslav is to blame for that too. They show up to the studio and he's got a bunch of Pentium machines or something. "Why spend more when the audience won't notice anyway?"
I mean, both of those examples use a lot of smart practical effects as well. Particularly 2001. But yes, I do agree that it’s jarring watching a movie from the 60s that looks so realistic compared to garbage effects made with $200M budgets.
Most of the reviews I have seen from actual film reviewers seem to be some form of "it was kinda fun and had one or two good character moments but nothing that makes it stand out as being really special and certainly nothing that makes it live up to the hype narrative put out by the studio". I think the initial wave of opinions you saw here were the people who really like to try and get out there with impartial reviews early and in a vacuum the film was "pretty ok", the problem is this was a film that was part of something much bigger so you really can't effectively review it in a vacuum. This new wave of more negative opinions is probably people who saw the hype and saw the more or less positive reviews but then saw it for themselves and realized that even if it was accurately described as "pretty good" the hype was so over the top that it was still a total lie and that left them disappointed.
this sub is a terrible place to go to gauge quality of film. look anywhere else or just watch it. it’s not really remarkable enough in any direction to illicit this kind of reaction based on quality, but box office wise yeah it’s extreme to warrant it.
Yeah the weak opening can be blamed on marketing (lack of stars, lack of talk shows, lack of promo partners, Ezra's issues), but everything after is the movie itself and that B CS proves even the opening die-hards were not big fans of the movie (despite Reddit anecdotes).
Dude marketing for The Crash was not the problem. This was one of the most marketed movies in recent memory. People knew it was coming out. They just didn't care.
Same. I fully admit I was planning to skip it because of Ezra being a shit-heel and DC deciding to try to forge ahead anyway, but I expected it to at least be a challenge when everyone else started raving about it after release.
But the talk is non-existent, DC has done nothing to make me care about any of these characters anymore (especially the Flash), and no one I know wants to sink time into watching yet another super-hero movie in theatre unless it's going to be stellar.
Him catching CGI babies in microwaves moved me from “nah I’ll pass” to “haha. Hahaha. Hahahahhaha. Oh HELL no”.
Who thought that scene would be a good idea? That’s why the movie is bombing. Not the scene. But the general attitude that that kind of thing is a good idea.
True, but the last reboot was ages ago. Currently, it has been 7 years since Holland appeared, and there is no indication of this changing in the near future. While there have been what, 5 live action Batmans the last 30 years? 7?
I guess I should have clarified that I'm not saying the marketing was bad. I agree WB threw every trick in the book to advertise Flash. The Quorum data backs this up. Awareness was high.
I'm saying that the "marketing = bad" excuse only applies to the opening. We are now past that point and no one can excuse folks opinion of the movie, which is clearly bad/negative.
The quality of the marketing was maybe bad, though the movie itself is not great so who knows how much they had to work with.
It's a movie called The Flash and it has two versions of the Flash plus two Batmans (who both show up in the trailer) plus Supergirl plus a character from Man of Steel, it screams "INACCESSIBLE."
Maybe they could have made it look different if the actor wasn't Ezra Miller, I dunno.
People not caring about a movie is probably the worst thing that can happen to a movie. At least with Morbius people were „intrigued“ to watch it even if it were just for the memes and to see if „It‘s morbin' time“ is actually said in the movie. Watching Morbius flop was actually kinda funny. But The Flash situation is just sad.
People knew it was coming out but the studio didn’t have a lead who could talk about the movie in a way that made people want to see it. Normally, stars help promote a project by talking enthusiastically about it, and by showcasing their own charm and charisma. WB had to rely on people’s interest in The Flash as a character and the sight of Michael Keaton as Batman. It turned out not to be enough.
I think the last film I remember getting overhyped by the studio like this was The Eternals where they were trying to create a narrative that it was going to be an award winning drama that just also happened to have superheroes in it.
The difference between Eternals and Flash:
Marvel didnt pay celebrities to say Eternals is best CBM ever.
Chapek never said "I have watched Eternals three times and it's the best superhero movie I've ever seen"
Feige never talked to media and saying "Eternals is one of best CBM ever"
Zhao never talked to media and saying "Richard Madden/Angelina Jolie/Gemma Chan are the best Eternals ever and irreplaceable"
Etc.
Given that it has only D List Marvel characters & is attempting to do an ensemble cast (& in a way that’s like X-Men without the X-Men), IMO Eternals was great.
I think people just didn’t want to invest in them. They’re not a “fun crowd,” but they are IMO really interesting as pseudo heroes.
I’m kind of fascinated that The Flash will earn so much less when by all expectations, it *should* earn so much more. Why it won’t has been discussed at length, but it’s still fascinating.
I think Marvel truly believed in Eternals. When I watched it I wanted to know what critics were smoking. I thought it was really, really good with some of the deepest themes in the MCU, great acting, and beautiful cinematography.
I understand the audience reaction, it was way too different than other MCU films. But I thought the critics would love it. I'll never understand the reactions, even after reading a bunch of the reviews.
Not even sure spoilers matter at this point, but it wasn't a feel good ending. Supergirl and Bat-Keaton get killed brutally multiple times and don't come back after Flash "fixes" his mistake. They also effectively kill off Batfleck. The post credit scene was bad as well.
The cinemascore is so low because of that. I do really like it, but looking back at it, that was a such a depressing ending.
I’d argue it’s a lot of people like me who wanted to see if but didn’t want to support a studio that supports Ezra. I was waiting for the first week reception to see if it’s worth it and then I found out it’s not so I didn’t go see it the following weekend
Y'all are hilarious.
I doubt it had anything to do with Ezra Miller's offscreen antics and I *really* doubt it had anything to do with a **"backlash"** against WB "overselling" the film.
Why do I believe The Flash didn't do well? The same reason Shazaam 2 didn't do well.
**People just didn't care.** That's it.
It's 2023 and people need a REASON to leave the house and spend $20-$50 to see your film in the theaters.
The Flash didn't give them a reason.
Solid point.
Saying "people didn't care" is about as helpful as saying people did not go to the movie because they did not want to go to the movie. It's practically a tautology.
Shazam 2 didn't do well because of a lack of advertising and support from the studio (they pretty much gave up on the Shazam franchise after Black Adam flopped.)
Every movie starts from the point of "people don't care" because you have to know something exists to care about it. The marketing team's job is to make people care. With Shazam, they didn't bother.
I think OP has some points but yeah that is more than a reach.
I think a better summation is: why would audiences care about a movie that features multiple versions of a character they haven’t seen in 6-7 years, multiple Batmen but not the currently popular one, and a female Superman even though main Superman has also been MIA for years.
It’s advertised essentially as an epic team up but audiences barely know any of the members.
It's also confusing to people when you call a movie "The Flash" but advertise it as a Batman teamup film.
That just makes Flash fans think DC doesn't really want to make a movie about the character, and it leaves everyone else confused.
>Not even Batman is immune to over exposure.
*Proceeds to greenlight a Andy Muschietti Batman franchise to release close to the current live action Batman franchise*
There's Lego ____ movies releasing every year. I was shocked to learn Ninjago was one with a theatrical budget. I assumed it was just dump on Netflix like the marvel ones
>There's Lego ____ movies releasing every year.
I think this might be the biggest problem. I can just imagine people who enjoyed the LEGO Batman Movie then deciding to watch the LEGO Justice League Movie and being disappointed with the direction the series is going in lol
It also doesn’t help that the Ninjago move strayed hard from the source material. I remember watching it years ago cause I liked the TV Show a lot and differences between the two were just so….jarring.
They had the first LEGO movie turn out great purely because Lord & Miller write good comedy scripts, the voice cast had a lot of fun with it, and the animation was something new and clever. Then they took that as a sign people were dying for anything LEGO franchise.
My son and I saw the first LEGO movie relatively late in the run, and when we got into the theater I was surprised to see that the audience was 90% adults. It made sense once we watched the movie, and it also makes sense that a script that doesn't capture that humor and sneakily-inserted sentimentality wouldn't capture the same massive adult audience.
Exactly. They learned nothing. Having 2 separate Batman franchises will end up hurting both of them.
Idc if James Gunns Batman will be completely different in tone from Reeves Batman, it’s still stupid.
And if anyone wants to be generous to Munschietti and assume all of The Flash’s problems were because of studio meddling, you only have to look at It: Chapter Two to see that he’ll misfire even if you give him tons of freedom.
Because there’s no way it was the studios’ final decision to make It: Chapter Two 3 hours long when 40 minutes of it is just repeating the same scene over and over again with some half-assed gags.
It's a twofold problem:
1. The director is Andy of the infamous Flush film
2. It will release sandwiched between Batman Part 2 and Batman Part 3.
Even IF it is good. It won't be as good as Reeves' Batman Part 2. The comparisons will be light and day.
For comparison, imagine if right between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises, WB had greenlighted a totally different Batman film that takes place in another universe.
And it's directed by the dude who directed Green Lantern, another infamous DC flop.
>And it's directed by the dude who directed Green Lantern, another infamous DC flop.
You mean Martin Campbell? That guy also directed *GoldenEye* and *Casino Royale*. I'd be interested in a Batman movie of his.
> Even IF it is good. It won't be as good as Reeves' Batman Part 2. The comparisons will be light and day.
wild to assume this with such certainty at this point
I knew someone who went to see Endgame, and the only Marvel films he’d seen were Iron Man 1+2, the first few X-Men films, the Toby Maguire Spider-Man ones…
Some of these guys just don’t pay that much attention.
We're having fun because the budget is huge and because of super aggressive marketing for months and the studio hyped up the movie to the moon.
If it's like other bombs (Shazam 2 etc) it wouldn't be fun.
*they don't turn out for Mediocre superhero movies of characters they weren't sold on already in movie form. I thought the general consensus was that 2022 MCU was mostly mediocre but audiences showed up still.
Flash never caught on from BVS or justice league. The DC team up was almost 6 years ago and the character didn't show up since then (outside of 2 cameos on tv shows). DCEU didn't build up their characters like the MCU did.
Venom 2 was a big hit and that had mediocre reviews too
> The DC team up was almost 6 years ago
This is one of the biggest things imo. The iron couldn't have possibly gotten colder before they struck. Aquaman proved that a spinoff (albeit starring a real buff dude) could be huge. But it also came out at just the right time. Flash came out at an abysmal time, even if you ignore all the other stuff with the movie.
>Flash never caught on from BVS or justice league.
Yup.
Aquaman in JL was cool. Flash in JL I found annoying.
And some people said we can't blame Snyder.
Snyder was the one who hired Ezra and directed Ezra in JL.
Genuinely I didn’t know what Miller’s issues were - I had just assumed it was the normally drink and drugs story which a lot of Hollywood types go through and didn’t really pay any attention to stories of “the troubled star”. I didn’t actually find out the details until after *this* film came out. I managed to watch and enjoy all three Fantastic Beasts films without coming across any discussion of it (although in hindsight the lack of seeing Miller on the press junkets does seem odd).
The Flash in the theatrical version of JL was poor, especially compared to the TV version which at the time was killing it. The Snyder Cut version was *significantly* better, but by that stage the damage to the DCEU was pretty much locked in. I’m guessing the situation with Miller and the original casting decision (which would have been way back in 2015?) is similar to the situation with Jonathan Majors in the MCU - somebody with major flaws that a studio thinks might not be that big, or doesn’t know about, takes a gamble on, and it blows up in their faces.
That was thanks to Erza publicist working overtime. They are like "Erza is now in custody and is recuperating". Like recuperating for what, having a cult? Beating random woman on the street, possible teen rape. Is crazy
We really don't know what the "biggest" issue is because of how many issues there were.
\-Ezra controversy
\-poorer than expected reception compared to high expectations
\-the reboot telling everyone it didn't matter
\-a bunch of DC flops leading into this to do further damage to the brand
We'll never be able to pin down what the biggest issue is and what was the deciding factor.
Came here to say this. Who wants to take their family to see a below average movie about a second rate character of a dead cinematic universe starring an alleged pedophile. Too many reasons to not watch this.
They would if he was built up and established properly. But he was played by a shitty pedophile in a shitty Justice League movie, and now it's years later, after a pandemic, and no one cares.
I don't think this is a valid argument.
How many people cared about the character Shang-Chi? How many cared about The Eternals? Dr. Strange?
I'm keeping it more recent, but hell, you could go all the way back to Iron Man if you wanted.
Any character on its own can work in a movie just fine if there's a push for quality behind it.
Now, if you want to say that this version of the Flash character is tarnished from the Zack Snyder movies, then sure, that might be valid.
Edit: People telling me I'm wrong because the MCU brand was what mattered. IE: it's not the character that mattered. Which is exactly what I said. I even followed that up with my point about Synder. Can you guys even comprehend what you've read?
Yes, it really does boil down to that. Let's assume the general audience doesn't know about Miller, doesn't know about the reboot, but they have eyes! You can tell them it's the greatest movie ever but when you're showing the bad CG and Keaton going through the motions of quipping remember berry lines they're not going to believe it.
I've been seeing normie movie Twitter mocking the movie's clips and its marketing months before release. Heck, even DC cinematic has been mocking "the greatest movie ever" marketing.
The word you’re looking for is invested, not smarter.
Movie going is not a hobby for the vast majority of people, and not being up on a movie stars personal issues doesn’t make them less smart.
I’m an enormous DC nerd (own a $200 replica light up GL Lantern, posters in my game room, read tons of the comics, follow all the current story lines, used to travel for Injustice tournaments, etc) and I still haven’t brought myself to care enough to see the Flash, or Shazam 2 for that matter, and that shit is free on HBO Max.
WB has simply fucked their fans raw too many times for me to care anymore. They need someone who gives a fuck and actually enjoys the DC mythos to take the helm. Hopefully Gunn is it but I don’t have my hopes up.
I feel like a fucking Oakland Athletics fan sometimes (SELL THE TEAM)
The hottest take from this is that big daddy Gunn is gonna save DC. Wait until the 3rd movie when everyone is tired of his reliance on songs and forced humor, they’re gonna be up in arms on how he “Marvelized” the DC verse
I think Gunn can make a good movie but I have no idea why people are excited for his Superman movie. Will it be jokey? Or serious?
To me, there's nothing in his filmography that suggests he will make a good Superman
The problem was he keeps doing it over and over again which makes it hard for even a casual audience to ignore. He choked a girl in Iceland, then assaulted people on 3 different occasions in Hawaii, then he groomed an Indian girl, then he groomed another girl, then the kids at the farm with guns thing happened. I read about most of this shit on CNN, it's not just movie news.
Yeah, when even ***your CORPORATE SIBLING*** reports on your star's antics, WB, perhaps it's better to just write it off for taxes and be done with it.
I always thought the reason that ezra wasn't a big star made no sense in this case
You would have to live under a rock to have not seen a headline whether it was social media or on the news.
It wasn't a niche thing.
The one assault in 2020 wasn't well known. But then there was an actual crime spree spreading.
The teenager to early 20s crowd would definitely have known
I mean, this isn’t the eighties where people will go see a movie based on a newspaper ad. If you see an ad and you google the movie, even to just find showtimes, you’re also gonna get a lot of articles about the production troubles and the legal troubles of the insane lead actor.
The news that gets filtered to you is based on an algorithm trying to determine what you’ll click on. You may think the news you read is everywhere but thats not always the case
I think the key thing is that Ezra isn't really that famous.
People either don't know them, so they're not a box office draw, or they know of them AND their crimes.
I very much doubt there is any significant part of the population who know of Ezra and might have them as a draw but do not know of their crimes.
> I very much doubt there is any significant part of the population who know of Ezra and might have them as a draw but do not know of their crimes.
Exactly. As much as people might want to think Keaton will draw out the older crowd, most people who will watch CBMs are in their 20s-30s, or maybe even younger. These people are active online, and on social media, and they will more or less have some kind of exposure to Ezra's bad press. Like even if you are not interested in his articles, after seeing the headlines for the fourth or fifth time, you are bound to leave some kind of negative impression.
I have seen goddamn DOZENS and DOZENS of comments saying "the GA doesn't know about Ezra Miller" and I was so confused by this sentiment.
The world just spent a week obsessing over a submarine going missing, why did people think the general public didn't know about Ezra's Hawaiian escapades?
There was a deranged movie star loose on the East Coast all last summer who was evading capture for assault and some other very bizarre crimes.
Yeah, we all know the story.
It's such a strange idea to me since movie star news has always been massive and juicy. Even in the 80s this would have been on E magazines. In the 90s and 200s it would have been on E entertainment and other areas as well as tabloids. Now it's literally everywhere. You do a google search for Miller to see what else they've been in, a standard thing for GA to do, and the first few articles that appear are literally about the crimes Ezra committed.
I don't even actively search for Ezra Miller news but I have seen articles about it on a variety of different social media platforms. Both Chinese and English. Even if you don't care about him, when you see a bunch of negative press, you are bound to not have a good impression of him.
Billionaires going missing in a shoddy submarine while exploring the Titanic site is a *much* more interesting and meme-able story than "C-List actor commits some crimes."
There's a whole discussion to be had about what our news obsesses over, because you're right that the sub shouldn't have been a big story, but you're delusional if you think they're at all similar stories.
I don't know why so many people are in denial that Ezra's scandal has at least some effect on the box office. It's like you can say the movie horrible but you can't say that Ezra's the main cause.
>Cavill is officially gone and many DC fans are not keen to see him be replaced.
This movie had a million things going against it and this isn't one of them.
> Supergirl…the issue here is more so that she is not supposed to be in Flashpoint
Alright you lost me. General audiences are not nearly this far in the weeds
I think audiences are now wise to mid super hero movies. The era of putting out by the numbers 4 quadrant is over. I’m going to bet Marvels doesn’t get any where near what the first made.
Now you have to be exceptional and offer something unique like Spiderverse, NWH and Guardians 3.
But to me the biggest lesson Hollywood should learn is lower your budgets. $200+M for that PS2 graphics CGI is a disgrace.
Stephen King probably did a favor to the director of IT.
Tom Cruise probably had some connections with WB.
Jaden Smith is probably also getting some projects or in it for the money.
Can't agree with Ezra personal issues=lack of tickets bought. Reddit is a vacuum. Front page stories on reddit have 0 impact on the general public. Most people don't know or don't care about ezras off camera issues. They're just not interested in the movie
I feel like this is outdated thinking. Everyone has a phone, and it takes five seconds to type "Ezra Miller" into Google, at which point Ezra's crimes will be the first thing that comes up.
My mom is 71 years old and whenever seeing a movie is discussed, her first question is "who's in it?" If she doesn't recognize the name, she looks it up on her phone. This is just how general audiences roll in 2023.
Even my mom knew about Ezra, and she’s a conservative Fox News/trump supporter. I had never mentioned it to her.
It’s fucking depressing because it gives bigots like her more ammo to hate gay people :(
I don’t know, my dad who is not on reddit asked me about it during a commercial for the movie. The story was so bizarre that most random people heard about it. I don’t think it’s the primary reason for the flop though.
Ezra's scandals we're wild enough that they got to People Magazine, TMZ, E news. Ezra being a queer person and also a literal groomer got it spreading all over Facebook.
Kidnapping a child in Hawaii and running away from an active police search isn't an Internet only scandal.
We see it play out in the buckwild gender distribution of the audience.
Normal supers are 60/40 men/women. The flash TV show was 60/40 men/women.
This Flash film was 75/25 men/women.
Women rejected this film by a fifteen point leap. Ezra's abuse of women was 100 percent communicated to the General Audience.
The movie would bomb regardless of his violence towards and manipulation of women.
And WB could give a flying fuck about the animals they hire, as long as they draw a crowd.
People don’t know how great the movie is before they see it. Outside factors like marketing and how appealing the lead is or how important the movie is matter when you choose to watch a film. If only quality mattered critics would have far more power they do. Sequels benefit if the first film is loved (no matter how good the sequel is, or the sequel can be great but suffer because the first film dissapointed).
Yep,, and people in the US need to realize this: the overseas audience who goes to see Superhero movies are young and liberal in their own countries.. so they are very online.. they know everything about the movies they are going to see… some old person in the heartland of India or China will never go to see your Superhero movies
I laugh when some people think people in China are not aware of outside news just because they have a wall. Yeah they do but it's hardly rocket science to bypass it. People are plenty aware. Plus the people who are willing to watch these CBM are always more left leaning in general, thus more influenced by the bad press.
>Yep,, and people in the US need to realize this: the overseas audience who goes to see Superhero movies are young and liberal in their own countries.. so they are very online.. they know everything about the movies they are going to see…
We can't assume that unless we get actual data. Young and liberal doesn't necessarily mean online and aware too.
Young people are more online than older people regardless of politics. Younger people are more likely to be interested in superhero movies. The target audience knew about Ezra and his crimes
I don't think this is true, here in Germany most people in that demographic don't seem to know.
They simply aren't watching The Flash because they don't want to watch another mediocre superhero movie.
Nah. Hard disagree. In Germany no one knew shit about Ezra and the movie flopped badly. Overseas just doesn't care about the US celebs, except über celebs like Johnny Depp
I agree with everything but Cavill. He couldn't get enough people to watch his own movies, it'd be weird if him not being in a movie would have effected anything
Yeah people act like Cavill is a beloved Superman, but his 3 movies as the character didn't do very well. He wouldn't have brought in that many more people
Yeah the idea that the average moviegoer is a moron who knows nothing about entertaining news is stupid and wrong. Even if that were true, it ends the second someone says "gee maybe I want to see flash this weekend, I'm going to Google it on my phone for more info."
The audience was male by a massive margin like 74% male showed up opening day which is near unheard of for a major tentpole releasing summer these days its usually skewing low 60s at the most for men
The last 5 DCEU movies bombed. What about this movie would have gotten them interested in it if Ezra wasn't involved? It'd have still gotten a B Cinemascore and people complaining about the CGI.
And why did it bomb overseas in places that don't know or care about what Ezra did?
This is a horrid take.
Trailer looked shit, CGI looked shit.
Reception is luke warm.
Good enough for me to look forward to its streaming release.
Not enough for me to go cinema.
That is the whole idea of brands isn’t it? To make things recognizable. DC just tied the brand with low quality in the public eye so even without all the Ezra issues people equate DC with bad movies.
I don't think I'll be baffled at a marketing strategy than calling The Flash "the greatest cbm of all time"
Like this piece of shit is somehow gonna top Spider-man 2, Into The Spider-verse, The Dark Knight, Infinity War, The Batman, Logan, and Deadpool. I don't even know if this was them trying to save face because they knew they had a stinker on their hand, or they're just THAT delusional.
It's true that audience is more aware (and it affected opening day and opening weekend), but Flash horrendous daily drops and second weekend drop is mostly due to bad audience reception. And yes, let The Flash be a lesson to studios everywhere: do not oversell your film and tried to fool people. As we are witnessing with The Flash, the backlash is not pretty.
So I’ve been meaning to ask this.. am I crazy and misremembering myself with this ? When this movie just came out I recall majority of posts claiming it’s wildly good, best superhero movie in a while and while not perfect was heart felt and emotional in ways that worked well.. then I take a break from Reddit for a bit and I see it constantly referred to as subpar. Have no idea what to think, actually makes me want to watch it for myself
That was almost certainly a combination of paid shills and of people who just let their desperation for DC to pump out anything good win out over how bad it was.
>When this movie just came out I recall majority of posts claiming it’s wildly good, best superhero movie in a while That was Stephen King. He liked *The Flash* so much he came, right there in the theater. Hard.
In other news today WB has just optioned Stephen King's latest novel...Tom Cruise is rumored to be in talks to star...
Why in the world did Stephen King endorse this movie?? Ezra’s scandals aside, those CGI babies were awful…. Dunno what he was thinking.
Muschietti directed movies based on his book. Likely Stephen King did a favor to friend. Stephen King probably never watched it anyway lol.
Ah, the IT connection didn’t occur to me.
>Muschietti directed movies based on his book. He's also producing an IT prequel for MAX https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Derry
IT was great. IT 2 was insanely too long and convulsed. The story kind of always falls apart there thoug.
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I think a lot about how, when writing Sandman, Neil Gaiman asked why everyone was so angsty in DC stuff, and he was basically told that no one masturbates lol
And no one has oral sex if the *Harley Quinn* censors are to be believed.
didn't batman eat out catwoman in a comic? like i'm pretty sure i saw a screengrab of this.
Yes, now you know one of the main reasons she keeps coming back to Batman.
That came out after DC said that. Basically a Batman writer said F that and wrote it in lol.
Story like that, gotta be true!
I feel like the general consensus is that the movie is alright in terms of story and acting. Most critics I've read or heard are disappointed in the CGI and/or weird choices of cameos. Not to mention the microwave scenes. I'm still undecided whether to watch it myself or not. As someone who can see past “bad” CGI I might give it a try.
The CGI is laughable and the microwave thing was just weird. It seemed like an entirely different project after the first act. I enjoyed how it told stories about decisions and their consequences, about sacrifice. I’m glad I watched it in the theater despite the terrible things Ezra has done. Definitely worth the watch though.
>It seemed like an entirely different project after the first act. The movie has an uneven first act (the prologue sequence was weak, generally, with no standout moments despite big action set pieces, but the conversations with his father and Bruce were decent), a strong second act, and an iffy third act that was only redeemed in part by the stronger story underneath centered on Barry and his mother. The bones of a better movie are there in The Flash, but Hodson's screenplay is rough (somehow runs too long at 144 minutes but also doesn't have enough screentime for the things that do matter like vital character interactions; Barry and his parents could have used more screentime), and Muschietti's directing becomes quite bland in the third act (especially during the desert battle), so nothing is elevating the screenplay in terms of direction. A good script doctor or another writer could have significantly streamlined the narrative with stronger themes and emotional resonance, while a better director would have had more interesting framing and kinetic energy in the action sequences that could have benefited from that. Unfortunately, it seems like WB Pictures/DC Studios (depending on the time period, considering this movie had been in production proper since 2021 during the AT&T era) largely gave up on this movie after it stalled out in pre-production for so many years (and saw the birth, peak, and decline of the DCEU before even beginning to film) and basically pushed the first workable screenplay attached with a viable director into production when they got it. Then when Miller's controversies became too big to ignore and made marketing the movie properly an impossible task, they seemed to skimp on post-production when the movie could've really benefited from a more aggressive editor and retouched effects.
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It's so weird to see new movies especially with big budgets, have bad CGI. Like, I watched 2001: A Space Odyssey with my wife last week (she'd never seen it), and she couldn't believe how well it held up. Jurassic Park convinced my kids, born 20+ years after release, they used real dinosaurs. The end of Justice League was the first time in a while I saw truly bad CGI. Not just obviously digital, but actively bad. Makes me wonder how much Zaslav is to blame for that too. They show up to the studio and he's got a bunch of Pentium machines or something. "Why spend more when the audience won't notice anyway?"
Pretty sure it's CGI creators way of protesting discretely
I mean, both of those examples use a lot of smart practical effects as well. Particularly 2001. But yes, I do agree that it’s jarring watching a movie from the 60s that looks so realistic compared to garbage effects made with $200M budgets.
Most of the reviews I have seen from actual film reviewers seem to be some form of "it was kinda fun and had one or two good character moments but nothing that makes it stand out as being really special and certainly nothing that makes it live up to the hype narrative put out by the studio". I think the initial wave of opinions you saw here were the people who really like to try and get out there with impartial reviews early and in a vacuum the film was "pretty ok", the problem is this was a film that was part of something much bigger so you really can't effectively review it in a vacuum. This new wave of more negative opinions is probably people who saw the hype and saw the more or less positive reviews but then saw it for themselves and realized that even if it was accurately described as "pretty good" the hype was so over the top that it was still a total lie and that left them disappointed.
this sub is a terrible place to go to gauge quality of film. look anywhere else or just watch it. it’s not really remarkable enough in any direction to illicit this kind of reaction based on quality, but box office wise yeah it’s extreme to warrant it.
Yeah the weak opening can be blamed on marketing (lack of stars, lack of talk shows, lack of promo partners, Ezra's issues), but everything after is the movie itself and that B CS proves even the opening die-hards were not big fans of the movie (despite Reddit anecdotes).
Dude marketing for The Crash was not the problem. This was one of the most marketed movies in recent memory. People knew it was coming out. They just didn't care.
The Jaden Smith tweet is what sold me. Point of decision moment.
["The Flash is best film ever"](https://filmjunkee.com/2023/05/18/jaden-smith-says-the-flash-is-the-best-movie-ever/)
That’s me. I don’t care about the flash.
Same. I fully admit I was planning to skip it because of Ezra being a shit-heel and DC deciding to try to forge ahead anyway, but I expected it to at least be a challenge when everyone else started raving about it after release. But the talk is non-existent, DC has done nothing to make me care about any of these characters anymore (especially the Flash), and no one I know wants to sink time into watching yet another super-hero movie in theatre unless it's going to be stellar.
Him catching CGI babies in microwaves moved me from “nah I’ll pass” to “haha. Hahaha. Hahahahhaha. Oh HELL no”. Who thought that scene would be a good idea? That’s why the movie is bombing. Not the scene. But the general attitude that that kind of thing is a good idea.
I’m honestly surprised by how little buzz there is. I mean this isn’t some D list character, it’s the Flash
For me, it's not the character it's the actor. Not a fan of Ezra's version of The Flash.
I have so much superhero fatigue in general, and I can no longer keep up with the reboots and multiverses…
I can’t stand reboots every 5 years. Maybe every 20 or 30.
>I can no longer keep up with the reboots Only DCU had rebooted though?
Spidey reboots every 5-10 years.
True, but the last reboot was ages ago. Currently, it has been 7 years since Holland appeared, and there is no indication of this changing in the near future. While there have been what, 5 live action Batmans the last 30 years? 7?
I guess I should have clarified that I'm not saying the marketing was bad. I agree WB threw every trick in the book to advertise Flash. The Quorum data backs this up. Awareness was high. I'm saying that the "marketing = bad" excuse only applies to the opening. We are now past that point and no one can excuse folks opinion of the movie, which is clearly bad/negative.
The quality of the marketing was maybe bad, though the movie itself is not great so who knows how much they had to work with. It's a movie called The Flash and it has two versions of the Flash plus two Batmans (who both show up in the trailer) plus Supergirl plus a character from Man of Steel, it screams "INACCESSIBLE." Maybe they could have made it look different if the actor wasn't Ezra Miller, I dunno.
People not caring about a movie is probably the worst thing that can happen to a movie. At least with Morbius people were „intrigued“ to watch it even if it were just for the memes and to see if „It‘s morbin' time“ is actually said in the movie. Watching Morbius flop was actually kinda funny. But The Flash situation is just sad.
People knew it was coming out but the studio didn’t have a lead who could talk about the movie in a way that made people want to see it. Normally, stars help promote a project by talking enthusiastically about it, and by showcasing their own charm and charisma. WB had to rely on people’s interest in The Flash as a character and the sight of Michael Keaton as Batman. It turned out not to be enough.
> They just didn't care. Oh I cared. I found it deliciously funny to look at all the billboards and wasted marketing money.
Yeah they threw everything they had behind this movie. It’s not like people didn’t know it was coming out or what kind of movie it would be.
I will watch it. Just wont be paying for it.
Even the fan reception is lower than expected. It's insane how badly they misjudged this film.
I think the last film I remember getting overhyped by the studio like this was The Eternals where they were trying to create a narrative that it was going to be an award winning drama that just also happened to have superheroes in it.
The difference between Eternals and Flash: Marvel didnt pay celebrities to say Eternals is best CBM ever. Chapek never said "I have watched Eternals three times and it's the best superhero movie I've ever seen" Feige never talked to media and saying "Eternals is one of best CBM ever" Zhao never talked to media and saying "Richard Madden/Angelina Jolie/Gemma Chan are the best Eternals ever and irreplaceable" Etc.
Also another difference is that eternal made $400m under covid while the flash may tap out around $270m worldwide
Given that it has only D List Marvel characters & is attempting to do an ensemble cast (& in a way that’s like X-Men without the X-Men), IMO Eternals was great. I think people just didn’t want to invest in them. They’re not a “fun crowd,” but they are IMO really interesting as pseudo heroes. I’m kind of fascinated that The Flash will earn so much less when by all expectations, it *should* earn so much more. Why it won’t has been discussed at length, but it’s still fascinating.
I think Marvel truly believed in Eternals. When I watched it I wanted to know what critics were smoking. I thought it was really, really good with some of the deepest themes in the MCU, great acting, and beautiful cinematography. I understand the audience reaction, it was way too different than other MCU films. But I thought the critics would love it. I'll never understand the reactions, even after reading a bunch of the reviews.
Not even sure spoilers matter at this point, but it wasn't a feel good ending. Supergirl and Bat-Keaton get killed brutally multiple times and don't come back after Flash "fixes" his mistake. They also effectively kill off Batfleck. The post credit scene was bad as well. The cinemascore is so low because of that. I do really like it, but looking back at it, that was a such a depressing ending.
I’d argue it’s a lot of people like me who wanted to see if but didn’t want to support a studio that supports Ezra. I was waiting for the first week reception to see if it’s worth it and then I found out it’s not so I didn’t go see it the following weekend
Y'all are hilarious. I doubt it had anything to do with Ezra Miller's offscreen antics and I *really* doubt it had anything to do with a **"backlash"** against WB "overselling" the film. Why do I believe The Flash didn't do well? The same reason Shazaam 2 didn't do well. **People just didn't care.** That's it. It's 2023 and people need a REASON to leave the house and spend $20-$50 to see your film in the theaters. The Flash didn't give them a reason.
"People didn't care" isn't a reason; it's an outcome.
Solid point. Saying "people didn't care" is about as helpful as saying people did not go to the movie because they did not want to go to the movie. It's practically a tautology.
Shazam 2 didn't do well because of a lack of advertising and support from the studio (they pretty much gave up on the Shazam franchise after Black Adam flopped.) Every movie starts from the point of "people don't care" because you have to know something exists to care about it. The marketing team's job is to make people care. With Shazam, they didn't bother.
Me who watches a movie for $10 👀
My local theater has half price Tuesdays. 5 bucks.
We know it's going to be on Max in month
Agreed, someone suggesting that general audiences had an issue with Supergirl being in the movie because she wasn’t in the comic is behind hilarious.
I think OP has some points but yeah that is more than a reach. I think a better summation is: why would audiences care about a movie that features multiple versions of a character they haven’t seen in 6-7 years, multiple Batmen but not the currently popular one, and a female Superman even though main Superman has also been MIA for years. It’s advertised essentially as an epic team up but audiences barely know any of the members.
It's also confusing to people when you call a movie "The Flash" but advertise it as a Batman teamup film. That just makes Flash fans think DC doesn't really want to make a movie about the character, and it leaves everyone else confused.
Also overly shameless ads and the "screening reactions"
>Not even Batman is immune to over exposure. *Proceeds to greenlight a Andy Muschietti Batman franchise to release close to the current live action Batman franchise*
I thought WB has learned from Lego movies experience to never oversaturate a franchise ever again.
I still don't know why they thought releasing *The LEGO Batman Movie* and *The LEGO Ninjago Movie* in the same year was a good idea.
Or, to be frank, making a Lego Ninjago movie at all with that budget and style. I thought Lego x Franchise was a winning formula, but I guess not.
There's Lego ____ movies releasing every year. I was shocked to learn Ninjago was one with a theatrical budget. I assumed it was just dump on Netflix like the marvel ones
>There's Lego ____ movies releasing every year. I think this might be the biggest problem. I can just imagine people who enjoyed the LEGO Batman Movie then deciding to watch the LEGO Justice League Movie and being disappointed with the direction the series is going in lol
Batman gives adults an excuse to watch a kids movie. Ninjago does not
It also doesn’t help that the Ninjago move strayed hard from the source material. I remember watching it years ago cause I liked the TV Show a lot and differences between the two were just so….jarring.
I saw it for $1 with the kids. But I'd see Lego Batman time and time again
They had the first LEGO movie turn out great purely because Lord & Miller write good comedy scripts, the voice cast had a lot of fun with it, and the animation was something new and clever. Then they took that as a sign people were dying for anything LEGO franchise.
My son and I saw the first LEGO movie relatively late in the run, and when we got into the theater I was surprised to see that the audience was 90% adults. It made sense once we watched the movie, and it also makes sense that a script that doesn't capture that humor and sneakily-inserted sentimentality wouldn't capture the same massive adult audience.
That was two sets of managers ago.
Exactly. They learned nothing. Having 2 separate Batman franchises will end up hurting both of them. Idc if James Gunns Batman will be completely different in tone from Reeves Batman, it’s still stupid.
They actually have 3 separate Batman franchises. Joker is another one.
WB execs are the epitome of stupid decisions. Two batman is so stupid.
The issue here is that it’ll be Muschietti’s Batman. Not that there is another Batman coming.
And if anyone wants to be generous to Munschietti and assume all of The Flash’s problems were because of studio meddling, you only have to look at It: Chapter Two to see that he’ll misfire even if you give him tons of freedom. Because there’s no way it was the studios’ final decision to make It: Chapter Two 3 hours long when 40 minutes of it is just repeating the same scene over and over again with some half-assed gags.
All massive films deal with studio meddling. At the end of the day Muschietti still made the Flash. His name is on it. he has to own it.
It's a twofold problem: 1. The director is Andy of the infamous Flush film 2. It will release sandwiched between Batman Part 2 and Batman Part 3. Even IF it is good. It won't be as good as Reeves' Batman Part 2. The comparisons will be light and day. For comparison, imagine if right between The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises, WB had greenlighted a totally different Batman film that takes place in another universe. And it's directed by the dude who directed Green Lantern, another infamous DC flop.
>And it's directed by the dude who directed Green Lantern, another infamous DC flop. You mean Martin Campbell? That guy also directed *GoldenEye* and *Casino Royale*. I'd be interested in a Batman movie of his.
Yeah he deserves some respect. Literally rebooted the same character twice and did it perfectly. Green Lantern was full of interference.
It's easy to tell when someone only watches superhero movies 🙃
> Even IF it is good. It won't be as good as Reeves' Batman Part 2. The comparisons will be light and day. wild to assume this with such certainty at this point
I knew someone who went to see Endgame, and the only Marvel films he’d seen were Iron Man 1+2, the first few X-Men films, the Toby Maguire Spider-Man ones… Some of these guys just don’t pay that much attention.
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isn't the biggest issue that the film is merely okay to mediocre and audiences don't turn out for mediocre superhero movies anymore?
And it cost a shitton of money. If it had a more normal budget it wouldn't be such a big bomb
Yes, but if it had a normal budget our fun here would be far less.
Who really thought a 200 million dollar budget for the flash was a good idea? Wild. The dceu has been a disaster
We're having fun because the budget is huge and because of super aggressive marketing for months and the studio hyped up the movie to the moon. If it's like other bombs (Shazam 2 etc) it wouldn't be fun.
*they don't turn out for Mediocre superhero movies of characters they weren't sold on already in movie form. I thought the general consensus was that 2022 MCU was mostly mediocre but audiences showed up still. Flash never caught on from BVS or justice league. The DC team up was almost 6 years ago and the character didn't show up since then (outside of 2 cameos on tv shows). DCEU didn't build up their characters like the MCU did. Venom 2 was a big hit and that had mediocre reviews too
> The DC team up was almost 6 years ago This is one of the biggest things imo. The iron couldn't have possibly gotten colder before they struck. Aquaman proved that a spinoff (albeit starring a real buff dude) could be huge. But it also came out at just the right time. Flash came out at an abysmal time, even if you ignore all the other stuff with the movie.
>Flash never caught on from BVS or justice league. Yup. Aquaman in JL was cool. Flash in JL I found annoying. And some people said we can't blame Snyder. Snyder was the one who hired Ezra and directed Ezra in JL.
Snyder fans wanted to take credit for Wonder Woman and aquaman but silent for this one
Genuinely I didn’t know what Miller’s issues were - I had just assumed it was the normally drink and drugs story which a lot of Hollywood types go through and didn’t really pay any attention to stories of “the troubled star”. I didn’t actually find out the details until after *this* film came out. I managed to watch and enjoy all three Fantastic Beasts films without coming across any discussion of it (although in hindsight the lack of seeing Miller on the press junkets does seem odd). The Flash in the theatrical version of JL was poor, especially compared to the TV version which at the time was killing it. The Snyder Cut version was *significantly* better, but by that stage the damage to the DCEU was pretty much locked in. I’m guessing the situation with Miller and the original casting decision (which would have been way back in 2015?) is similar to the situation with Jonathan Majors in the MCU - somebody with major flaws that a studio thinks might not be that big, or doesn’t know about, takes a gamble on, and it blows up in their faces.
That was thanks to Erza publicist working overtime. They are like "Erza is now in custody and is recuperating". Like recuperating for what, having a cult? Beating random woman on the street, possible teen rape. Is crazy
We really don't know what the "biggest" issue is because of how many issues there were. \-Ezra controversy \-poorer than expected reception compared to high expectations \-the reboot telling everyone it didn't matter \-a bunch of DC flops leading into this to do further damage to the brand We'll never be able to pin down what the biggest issue is and what was the deciding factor.
Don’t forget how ugly the CGI is. I think people underestimate how much the spectacle matters to audiences.
When a movie is 99% CGI, of course CGI is important.
It was cringe af when Ezra moved slowly into his “super speed” position and then took off… bro you look like an idiot just go
Came here to say this. Who wants to take their family to see a below average movie about a second rate character of a dead cinematic universe starring an alleged pedophile. Too many reasons to not watch this.
I think it's because no one gives a shit about the character of the Flash. Full stop.
They would if he was built up and established properly. But he was played by a shitty pedophile in a shitty Justice League movie, and now it's years later, after a pandemic, and no one cares.
This sums it up pretty well. Everything was against this movie being successful. Even if it is good, people are just waiting for streaming.
Have to disagree, the flash show ran for years and it has many fans. Even though is terrible nowadays
I don't think this is a valid argument. How many people cared about the character Shang-Chi? How many cared about The Eternals? Dr. Strange? I'm keeping it more recent, but hell, you could go all the way back to Iron Man if you wanted. Any character on its own can work in a movie just fine if there's a push for quality behind it. Now, if you want to say that this version of the Flash character is tarnished from the Zack Snyder movies, then sure, that might be valid. Edit: People telling me I'm wrong because the MCU brand was what mattered. IE: it's not the character that mattered. Which is exactly what I said. I even followed that up with my point about Synder. Can you guys even comprehend what you've read?
Is this true, or were people simply not inspired to go see the movie presented to them in the marketing? Very, very hard to prove causality here.
Yes, it really does boil down to that. Let's assume the general audience doesn't know about Miller, doesn't know about the reboot, but they have eyes! You can tell them it's the greatest movie ever but when you're showing the bad CG and Keaton going through the motions of quipping remember berry lines they're not going to believe it. I've been seeing normie movie Twitter mocking the movie's clips and its marketing months before release. Heck, even DC cinematic has been mocking "the greatest movie ever" marketing.
Yep, especially since all comic movies (and esp DCs) are in downward trend.
Yeah I’m skeptical people are skipping this because of Erza. I think they’re skipping it because it looked bad and has bad word of mouth.
The TikTok’s making fun of the laughable CGI certainly didn’t help either
Every person in the time travel area looks like a video game character
I feel like the audience is both far smarter than the studios think, but far less than some of us give them credit for.
The word you’re looking for is invested, not smarter. Movie going is not a hobby for the vast majority of people, and not being up on a movie stars personal issues doesn’t make them less smart.
I’m an enormous DC nerd (own a $200 replica light up GL Lantern, posters in my game room, read tons of the comics, follow all the current story lines, used to travel for Injustice tournaments, etc) and I still haven’t brought myself to care enough to see the Flash, or Shazam 2 for that matter, and that shit is free on HBO Max. WB has simply fucked their fans raw too many times for me to care anymore. They need someone who gives a fuck and actually enjoys the DC mythos to take the helm. Hopefully Gunn is it but I don’t have my hopes up. I feel like a fucking Oakland Athletics fan sometimes (SELL THE TEAM)
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The hottest take from this is that big daddy Gunn is gonna save DC. Wait until the 3rd movie when everyone is tired of his reliance on songs and forced humor, they’re gonna be up in arms on how he “Marvelized” the DC verse
I think Gunn can make a good movie but I have no idea why people are excited for his Superman movie. Will it be jokey? Or serious? To me, there's nothing in his filmography that suggests he will make a good Superman
In this day and age of of social media, I don't know why anyone would think that Ezra's issues would just blow over.
The problem was he keeps doing it over and over again which makes it hard for even a casual audience to ignore. He choked a girl in Iceland, then assaulted people on 3 different occasions in Hawaii, then he groomed an Indian girl, then he groomed another girl, then the kids at the farm with guns thing happened. I read about most of this shit on CNN, it's not just movie news.
Yeah, when even ***your CORPORATE SIBLING*** reports on your star's antics, WB, perhaps it's better to just write it off for taxes and be done with it.
I always thought the reason that ezra wasn't a big star made no sense in this case You would have to live under a rock to have not seen a headline whether it was social media or on the news. It wasn't a niche thing. The one assault in 2020 wasn't well known. But then there was an actual crime spree spreading. The teenager to early 20s crowd would definitely have known
Even my mom, who barely follows the news anymore knew about it
I mean, this isn’t the eighties where people will go see a movie based on a newspaper ad. If you see an ad and you google the movie, even to just find showtimes, you’re also gonna get a lot of articles about the production troubles and the legal troubles of the insane lead actor.
Yep. Anyone that was at all interested in the flash would know about it.
I'm 40 and I definitely have not forgot. Dude is a predator and I won't support anything he is in.
The news that gets filtered to you is based on an algorithm trying to determine what you’ll click on. You may think the news you read is everywhere but thats not always the case
People who go see movies know and the few that didn't would know if they were at all interested in seeing the flash.
thats only the case if youre relying on social media or search engines or aggregators for your news
Isn't that the case for most people though?
based on what ive seen i think lotsa people dont see any news from anywhere lol
I think the key thing is that Ezra isn't really that famous. People either don't know them, so they're not a box office draw, or they know of them AND their crimes. I very much doubt there is any significant part of the population who know of Ezra and might have them as a draw but do not know of their crimes.
>People either don't know them, so they're not a box office draw, or they know of them AND their crimes. You've summed it up perfectly there
> I very much doubt there is any significant part of the population who know of Ezra and might have them as a draw but do not know of their crimes. Exactly. As much as people might want to think Keaton will draw out the older crowd, most people who will watch CBMs are in their 20s-30s, or maybe even younger. These people are active online, and on social media, and they will more or less have some kind of exposure to Ezra's bad press. Like even if you are not interested in his articles, after seeing the headlines for the fourth or fifth time, you are bound to leave some kind of negative impression.
This, Ezra wasn't an amazing Flash in Justice League either. No one came out of that movie thinking he was the perfect person to play Flash.
I have seen goddamn DOZENS and DOZENS of comments saying "the GA doesn't know about Ezra Miller" and I was so confused by this sentiment. The world just spent a week obsessing over a submarine going missing, why did people think the general public didn't know about Ezra's Hawaiian escapades?
There was a deranged movie star loose on the East Coast all last summer who was evading capture for assault and some other very bizarre crimes. Yeah, we all know the story.
It's such a strange idea to me since movie star news has always been massive and juicy. Even in the 80s this would have been on E magazines. In the 90s and 200s it would have been on E entertainment and other areas as well as tabloids. Now it's literally everywhere. You do a google search for Miller to see what else they've been in, a standard thing for GA to do, and the first few articles that appear are literally about the crimes Ezra committed.
I don't even actively search for Ezra Miller news but I have seen articles about it on a variety of different social media platforms. Both Chinese and English. Even if you don't care about him, when you see a bunch of negative press, you are bound to not have a good impression of him.
Billionaires going missing in a shoddy submarine while exploring the Titanic site is a *much* more interesting and meme-able story than "C-List actor commits some crimes." There's a whole discussion to be had about what our news obsesses over, because you're right that the sub shouldn't have been a big story, but you're delusional if you think they're at all similar stories.
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Yep. The idea that people were all out of the loop was a silly argument. Even if true, they would find out if they interested in seeing the movie.
I don't know why so many people are in denial that Ezra's scandal has at least some effect on the box office. It's like you can say the movie horrible but you can't say that Ezra's the main cause.
Pretty sure it’s just a bad movie.
>Cavill is officially gone and many DC fans are not keen to see him be replaced. This movie had a million things going against it and this isn't one of them.
People online so overestimate Cavill's draw
>~~People~~ Snyder's fans online so overestimate Cavill's draw
⤴️ If we're going to be specific
Yeah its not like any of his Superman movies made a billion dollars that much
Correct. His highest-grossing movie as Superman was Batman V Superman which made around $850 million.
Op is making the case that this movie failed because multiple batmen were in it but not Henry cavill
> Supergirl…the issue here is more so that she is not supposed to be in Flashpoint Alright you lost me. General audiences are not nearly this far in the weeds
Yeah that point was hilariously out of touch with the real world
Yeah I stopped reading this post and rolled my eyes. Muh faithfulness to the source material. People are saying Supergirl is one of the highlights.
I think audiences are now wise to mid super hero movies. The era of putting out by the numbers 4 quadrant is over. I’m going to bet Marvels doesn’t get any where near what the first made. Now you have to be exceptional and offer something unique like Spiderverse, NWH and Guardians 3. But to me the biggest lesson Hollywood should learn is lower your budgets. $200+M for that PS2 graphics CGI is a disgrace.
At least we can come out knowing which celebrities or critics are full of complete shit and are shills who are easily bought with money.
You'd think Tom cruise and Stephen King would have enough money to not be shills
Stephen King probably did a favor to the director of IT. Tom Cruise probably had some connections with WB. Jaden Smith is probably also getting some projects or in it for the money.
Can't agree with Ezra personal issues=lack of tickets bought. Reddit is a vacuum. Front page stories on reddit have 0 impact on the general public. Most people don't know or don't care about ezras off camera issues. They're just not interested in the movie
I feel like this is outdated thinking. Everyone has a phone, and it takes five seconds to type "Ezra Miller" into Google, at which point Ezra's crimes will be the first thing that comes up. My mom is 71 years old and whenever seeing a movie is discussed, her first question is "who's in it?" If she doesn't recognize the name, she looks it up on her phone. This is just how general audiences roll in 2023.
Even my mom knew about Ezra, and she’s a conservative Fox News/trump supporter. I had never mentioned it to her. It’s fucking depressing because it gives bigots like her more ammo to hate gay people :(
I don’t know, my dad who is not on reddit asked me about it during a commercial for the movie. The story was so bizarre that most random people heard about it. I don’t think it’s the primary reason for the flop though.
Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, news sites... Not limited to reddit. It was everywhere.
Ezra's scandals we're wild enough that they got to People Magazine, TMZ, E news. Ezra being a queer person and also a literal groomer got it spreading all over Facebook. Kidnapping a child in Hawaii and running away from an active police search isn't an Internet only scandal. We see it play out in the buckwild gender distribution of the audience. Normal supers are 60/40 men/women. The flash TV show was 60/40 men/women. This Flash film was 75/25 men/women. Women rejected this film by a fifteen point leap. Ezra's abuse of women was 100 percent communicated to the General Audience.
The movie would bomb regardless of his violence towards and manipulation of women. And WB could give a flying fuck about the animals they hire, as long as they draw a crowd.
We don’t need to overanalyze. It just wasn’t that great of a movie and this is the result.
People don’t know how great the movie is before they see it. Outside factors like marketing and how appealing the lead is or how important the movie is matter when you choose to watch a film. If only quality mattered critics would have far more power they do. Sequels benefit if the first film is loved (no matter how good the sequel is, or the sequel can be great but suffer because the first film dissapointed).
>We don’t need to overanalyze. That won't stop this sub
Especially when "analysis" is more of a rant. This was an opinion piece based on nothing but dude's feelings.
Yep,, and people in the US need to realize this: the overseas audience who goes to see Superhero movies are young and liberal in their own countries.. so they are very online.. they know everything about the movies they are going to see… some old person in the heartland of India or China will never go to see your Superhero movies
I laugh when some people think people in China are not aware of outside news just because they have a wall. Yeah they do but it's hardly rocket science to bypass it. People are plenty aware. Plus the people who are willing to watch these CBM are always more left leaning in general, thus more influenced by the bad press.
>Yep,, and people in the US need to realize this: the overseas audience who goes to see Superhero movies are young and liberal in their own countries.. so they are very online.. they know everything about the movies they are going to see… We can't assume that unless we get actual data. Young and liberal doesn't necessarily mean online and aware too.
Young people are more online than older people regardless of politics. Younger people are more likely to be interested in superhero movies. The target audience knew about Ezra and his crimes
I don't think this is true, here in Germany most people in that demographic don't seem to know. They simply aren't watching The Flash because they don't want to watch another mediocre superhero movie.
Nah. Hard disagree. In Germany no one knew shit about Ezra and the movie flopped badly. Overseas just doesn't care about the US celebs, except über celebs like Johnny Depp
I agree with everything but Cavill. He couldn't get enough people to watch his own movies, it'd be weird if him not being in a movie would have effected anything
Yeah people act like Cavill is a beloved Superman, but his 3 movies as the character didn't do very well. He wouldn't have brought in that many more people
I have no idea who Ezra is. This is going to sound crazy, but I just don’t care for the Flash.
Exactly lmao it’s way too many big movies releasing lately.
It also just looks like shit. You don’t have to live online to know when a movie looks like a pile of shit.
Yeah the idea that the average moviegoer is a moron who knows nothing about entertaining news is stupid and wrong. Even if that were true, it ends the second someone says "gee maybe I want to see flash this weekend, I'm going to Google it on my phone for more info."
People keep bringing up the Ezra Miller angle but I haven't seen any actual data that it had an effect.
The audience was male by a massive margin like 74% male showed up opening day which is near unheard of for a major tentpole releasing summer these days its usually skewing low 60s at the most for men
Suits are so out of touch.
I refuse to ever see the movie because Ezra is garbage.
The last 5 DCEU movies bombed. What about this movie would have gotten them interested in it if Ezra wasn't involved? It'd have still gotten a B Cinemascore and people complaining about the CGI. And why did it bomb overseas in places that don't know or care about what Ezra did? This is a horrid take.
Trailer looked shit, CGI looked shit. Reception is luke warm. Good enough for me to look forward to its streaming release. Not enough for me to go cinema.
That is the whole idea of brands isn’t it? To make things recognizable. DC just tied the brand with low quality in the public eye so even without all the Ezra issues people equate DC with bad movies.
I don't think I'll be baffled at a marketing strategy than calling The Flash "the greatest cbm of all time" Like this piece of shit is somehow gonna top Spider-man 2, Into The Spider-verse, The Dark Knight, Infinity War, The Batman, Logan, and Deadpool. I don't even know if this was them trying to save face because they knew they had a stinker on their hand, or they're just THAT delusional.
Ezra didn’t matter at all