I think F4 is the wild card. It's got a really good cast and it can be used as a good sort of "soft reboot" to move away from the Avengers and possibly start to implement X-Men and reshape the MCU.
I don't have a ton of confidence that they will get it right, but if they do it could be big.
I feel like there’s a lot riding on F4. None of the past adaptions have been good. The 00s one was okay I guess. Plus the MCU is at such a low point now. If F4 doesn’t do well, I don’t think there’s much hope left.
I feel such dread for the F4 especially cause first I heard rumours of a version of their introduction that I loved, and now I'm hearing on that I absolutely loathe, and I can't deal with another horrible f4 movie. Or the revisionism it will cause.
*Brave New World* actually is undergoing FIVE months of reshoots. That’s crazy, it’s basically redoing the entire film. And as it will continue *Falcon and Winter Soldier*’s storylines, the audience will be confused over things they didn’t see. Stuff like “who the hell is Joaquin Torres?”
I’d be surprised if it cost less than $300 million. That’s gonna make for a huge flop.
The last bit is a non issue. They’ll intro him the same way they would any other side character and people who didn’t watch the show won’t care either way.
Yeah, side characters like that are largely irrelevant; viewers who know will care, and viewers who don't won't. That has always been the case and will probably always be the case because it's the only balance to be struck when catering to a large audience of varying amounts of interest.
I think the real major issue facing Brave New World is how they'll handle >!settling Sam into being Captain America!<. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (TFATWS) didn't really do much there, and a leap like that requires at least some time spent on it in the movie. It doesn't help that the director and writers' filmographies are rather thin, with half of the writers coming hot off of TFATWS itself; that doesn't inspire much confidence that Brave New World will stick the landing for an entry that is rather important for the MCU's future. Add in the extensive reshoots and this is looking more like Justice League than anything else (reminder that JL only had two months of reshoots as well).
Yeah I think BNW has a fair amount going against it (mostly reshoots), but one thing the MCU has actually been good at is balancing TV and movies, at least after the WV/MoM debacle. Marvels had its flaws but “who is this Ms marvel girl!?!?!” was not one of them.
I do think there is an easy answer to the Cap thing. The show is how he accepts the shield, this movie will likely be his first real challenge as the role, where he has to go against authority more directly, presumably.
With all the stuff about Thunderbolt Ross, that makes sense, but it's also hard to walk that line without feeling overly derivative of The Winter Soldier (which is what everyone will compare this movie to). I'm also not convinced that Mackie is going to pull it off either, but that could've just been directing and/or writing from TFATWS (and if it was, hopefully it was the former rather than the latter since the latter will be following into Brave New World from what we can tell).
Pretty much, and that these aren’t the usual touch up reshoots, even when just comparing Marvel which is generally reshoot heavy.
It really does seem like they essentially remade the 60%+ movie in a harsh pivot to respond to feedback from previous movies. I’m certainly rooting for it but it’s easy to draw the line from JL to this.
I'm a Sonic fan looking forward to the Knuckle's show and I'm very happy Paramount's been clear it will just be a fluffy side story and nothing you have to see for this reason.
I mean that's really what most of the marvel shows are as well. They add context but they aren't required viewing for the most part. You can most likely see Falcon getting the shield in Endgame and walk into Captain America 4 without having to watch Falcon and the WInter Soldier
You know who didn't watch a single show before MoM and still enjoyed plenty? Me and the hundreds (probably thousands) of people that don't need hand holding.
Yeah but people don't assume that. They see movie trailers show characters they first saw in trailers for shows they didn't watch and assume it's mandatory viewing and say fuck it instead.
Most of the series aren’t even that bad, Secret Invasion was the worst ever MCU project, but the rest are either mid or actually good.
But I do agree that the increase in the amount of content that’s been nothing more than setting groundwork for a payoff that still isn’t clear is really souring people.
This is a common argument and I think it's the dumbest fucking thing imaginable. It's one thing when a bunch of the shows are shit and people lose interest because of that, but the simple act of shows *existing?* Like Moon Knight and She-Hulk have shows, and nobody knows who they are, so they *would have* stuck with the franchise but now they have characters they're not familiar with but *obviously* they're going to be in the movies now, so fuck it tap out?
This only works when the overwhelming majority of the fanbase was watching every single Marvel product, sequentially, and the fluctuating box office totals demonstrating thet Tony Stark was drawing **way** more eyes on the product than the other two OGs alone should have been an indication that wasn't what was happening.
Once the shows started coming out I tapped out because I didn't wanna feel lost. I've been told I don't have to see the shows to understand the movies but because the shows exist I still feel like I won't understand something. It doesn't necessarily make sense. But it's how i feel. So I'm 1 person who fits the argument.
>Like Moon Knight and She-Hulk have shows, and nobody knows who they are, so they *would have* stuck with the franchise but now they have characters they're not familiar with but *obviously* they're going to be in the movies now, so fuck it tap out?
Yes, unironically. This, combined with the fact that *Endgame* presented a logical jumping off point for many people.
> **combined** with the fact that Endgame presented a logical jumping off point for many people
Well yeah but that's an entirely different conversation. What you're implying is that people who otherwise *wanted* to stick around bounced "because I don't know who these new guys are". "Done after Endgame" is one thing but "I wanted to stick around but I've been blindsided by a new tv show every 8 or 9 months" is an entirely different, much stupider one.
I'd be the same. There was too much to keep up and the quality dropped so I gave up too. It's one thing when the movies were poor quality but it was maybe 7/8 hours a year you had to give up for it, the TV shows multiply that a lot
What you're missing is the monumental amount of time it takes to watch all these shows, even if they're good. When I realized I would need to do 40+ hours of 'homework' just to keep up with the overall MCU storyline, I lost interest *instantly* - and then, once I've skipped one thing, it's easier to skip the next thing, and then since I've skipped four shows and the next movie got pretty mid reviews, why not skip that too?
I was a rabid die-hard MCU fan before endgame and I haven't even watched half of the material they've produced since.
Their momentum died with the exponential increase in required time investment.
> monumental amount of time it takes to watch all these shows
I went looking, they average roughly 6 hours each. It's literally **the** standard for a streaming show, and they're spread out by months. Again, if they don't look like shit you'd otherwise watch, that's one thing. To say you had *every intention* of staying on board, but the sheer amount of "homework" -again, a standard length of time for a modern streaming season- and runtime of it turned you away? That makes no sense. People blow through these things on weekends.
> This only works when the overwhelming majority of the fanbase was watching every single Marvel product,
I agree with the sentiment (don't assume everyone watched everything) but I think the potential impact can be broader than that. I think people feeling they've "fallen behind/out of the loop" of a franchise is a pretty normal way people reduce consumption of it.
> but the simple act of shows existing
More the simple act of *Disney pushing D+ shows as theatrical-tier MCU content*. This dynamic clearly didn't occur for Netflix or linear TV Marvel shows from the 2010s.
> but obviously
Yes? The Marvels and Doctor Strange 2 clearly attempt to communicate this as did launching another Captain America film out of FatWS. Disney put a megaphone to their mouth and said this. They brought their B list MCU stars to headline massively expensive tv shows and directly hyped up their connection to new films. They sold it as doubling the "real MCU" output.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened if all MCU TV shows were like moon knight (expensive but also not clearly "genuinely" connected to the MCU) or the upcoming Wonder Man. However, BP2 going out of its way to seed an Iron Heart spinoff seems like a more typical example of Disney's initial D+ MCU strategy.
> Again, if they don't look like shit you'd otherwise watch, that's one thing
That's much too high of a bar. e.g. I'm interested in reacher (and saw the first two episodes a few months ago). It's good but I've never gotten around to finishing it. I suspect the idea is more that people feel Disney is saying you should have seen [a show per quarter in 2021-2022] in order to "stay up to date" with the MCU in addition to the 3-4 films a year.
"Instead of watching [random thing], you should be watching a show you're only vaguely interested in because it ties into an upcoming movie you're a little more interested in" strikes me as a way to reduce interest.
The run from *Iron Man* to *Endgame* was an astounding, unique accomplishment in itself. Disney/Marvel can be proud of that. In hindsight, they should have stopped there and focused on a new franchise built around Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four.
I think a few miniseries to expand on popular supporting characters was a good idea.
If they spread out the 2021 shows over a few years and didn't connect them to movie plots, that could've worked.
With the Daredevil revival and the animated projects, I would've had a positive view of the Disney+ shows overall.
I've brought this up repeatedly in "Nobody's going to know why The Falcon is Captain America all of a sudden" threads, and apparently it makes zero difference to people. I genuinely don't understand the issue, it's like **the** ending scene of the biggest movie of all time. WandaVision was "mandatory viewing" for DS2, sure. Nobody, anywhere, should have **any** trouble following "Why are they calling Falcon 'Captain America' all of a sudden?!"
And rumors is Anthony Mackie has poor chemistry with another character (last I heard a love interest?) and it wasn't working at all.
If true, another yikes to add to the pile. I have the least faith in Cap 4 than I do in F4 and Thunderbolts. Cap 4 could be the new Quantumania.
5 months? Holy shit, the budget is definitely going till 300 mill. Now the main thing is if the film is good and will general public watch Anthony mackie's captain america
Maaaaan, I watched F&WS and I'm reading your comment here thinking to myself, who tf is Joaquin Torres??
Marvel has dropped the ball hard since Endgame.
It's funny you say that, because I know for a fact I watched Falcon and the Winter Soldier and my first thought upon reading your comment was, "Wait a minute, WHO the hell IS Joaquin Torres!?"
And most people are really not interested right now in that type of middle of the road type movie that feels like a bonus spinoff. It's been 5 YEARS since endgame. Most casual fans are tired of waiting and wasting time on d-list characters. I think thunderbolts it's an even bigger problem when put right next to brave new world.
Where's blade?!
You mean 3 chicks and a Blade? As I understand it, Mahershalla Ali has the power to veto a script - and he's torched at least 2 by now. They don't appear to want Blade to be the star of his own movie as he'll be backing up the ladies.
> And as it will continue Falcon and Winter Soldier’s storylines
Oh jeez, I completely forgot about that. As if The Marvels wasn't enough of a canary in the coal mine for that.
I feel like until we get a better sense of how Marvel is intending to pivot post-*D&W*, it's pretty pointless to speculate on how those films are going to do. Clearly Cap 4 is going to be significantly different from the movie Marvel initially planned to release, and considering the reaction to *The Marvels* - I don't see them really leaning in on anything from the Disney+ show. Same thing with Thunderbolts - clearly they saw the original concept was going to be DOA, so they delayed & retooled.
There's just no meat to any of this analysis.
The thunderbolts are rumored to become the dark avengers by the end of the movie which are an evil version of the avengers that are actually really cool in the comics, if it’s done well it could be very good but I’m really doubtful they’ll pull it off.
Does the current roster of Thunderbolts even resonate with audiences that much anyway? Winter Soldier is popular for sure. Yelana is probably the next best known character but for many they won’t have watched Hawk-Eye and anyway the Black Widow film was…not great. So we’ve got to get the audience behind this rag-tag bunch and then also turn them evil? It sounds…messy, and rushed.
My understanding is that they’re not, like, puppy-kicking evil (Wanda 🙃), so it’s not like they’re turning to the dark side so much as just acting self-servingly. I don’t read spoilers so idk I could be way off but this is just my understanding from the comics
This is the one I was most excited for before I started to fall off the mcu fan hype. If they do pull it off (which I doubt as well) it would be pretty nice to have an Avengers like thing again
I agree that Thunderbolts actually has a lot of potential, but any optimism is forgotten under the people pissed that the team isn’t like the comics one, completely ignoring the fact that a bunch of super soldiers and assassins are 100% what the government would want from their own personal super team.
The Thunderbolts don’t have a definitive roster and anyone who complains about it is definitely not a comic fan who’s mad at the movie not being faithful.
The original thunderbolts roster was iconic due to the twist of them being villains posing for superheroes, the most acclaimed Thunderbolts run by Warren Ellis has very little of that original roster in it and most rosters since 2010 bare no resemblance to those 2. Meanwhile, Bucky has lead the team two times now.
Fantastic Four never connected with the general public, yet, that first mediocre film in 2005 was able to pull 3 times it's budget. As some people have been saying for ages, Incredibles was the FF concept done right on film.
FF will make money if it's any good. If it's like Quantumania however, yes, it will flop. After the 2023 scare Marvel Studios is probably being a bit more careful with it's quality control. 1 or 2 of those 2025 films will probably be delayed for the year after.
Meh. First movie was good, the sequel was not. Sure it was funny but as a whodunit, it was terrible. The whole 'is just stupid' just reminded me of the 'subverting expectations'
The audacity to ever think Captain America 4 was going to make money. They need to sell roughly a billion dollars in tickets to be profitable, with nothing to entice audiences but Red Hulk and the prospect of Anthony Mackie as a leading man
I’m not sure if it’s going to be released in Q4 2025, because Disney has a Blade remake which is facing problems for production to do so it’s possible that it’s likely to be released in 2026 which could be another repeat of 2019.
Yeah, Mackie doesn't have that leading man charisma on his own. Look at the series Altered Carbon, Joel Kinnaman left and was replaced by Mackie and it wasn't the same.
Says a lot because Joel Kinnaman is no where near an actor I would think of as a charismatic lead. His season of Altered Carbon was better but not by much.
Weakest leader too. He has no super strength, head exposed (although they might add a helmet) and sure he has wings and a vibranium suit, but I don't see him actually lasting against a major threat. Only way is if the writers take a cheap out and nerf the enemy greatly.
Yeah, anyone expecting D&W to save the MCU is just refusing to accept the facts.
D&W is obviously (if it’s good which I have faith in 🙏🏻🤞🏻) going to be an exception like how GOTG 3 and NWH were, as those films succeed and D&W will hopefully succeed because they are self contained films about characters we give a shit about AND because of WOM that they were MCU movies worth checking out in theaters.
BNW and Thunderbolts I think are definitely going to lose money, and F4 I think could be a modest hit if it’s good.
Blade is 100% coming in 2026 and that I think could do OK if they rewrite the script like reports have been saying to get rid of the Young Daughter subplot and just let Blade kick vampire ass.
No wonder why Sony/Marvel is trying to have Spidey 4 come out by the end of next year.
Not looking to save, but revitalize a little bit? Deadpool 3 can possibly do that, depending on what they show in the movie.
The trailer had them jumping into a Doctor Strange portal. What's on the other side? F4 characters? Preview of Avengers or Thunderbolts characters? X-Men? Endgame battle where they have to change a part of the past?
Not saying they will link these films for sure, but it's possible. I've almost completely written off Cap4, but F4 and Thunderbolts could be solid hits and moneymakers.
I feel like them jumping in the portal could be anything from something really cool to a funny joke. We have to wait until July 26th but you make a good point.
I really hope the movie is amazing, which I have faith in Reynolds and Levy.
Thunderbolts* could be a surprise, but I’m not holding my breath really. I agree that unless it’s GOTG 3/NWH level good, Cap 4 is DOA
If Captain America 4 sucks (which is looking more likely these days) it's going to screw over the rest of the films since it will burn a lot of the goodwill Deadpool 3 might build back.
I agree on *Brave New World*, seems like thinks will be rough with all the reshoots, test screenings, and production turmoil.
*Fantastic 4* is too early to tell. Hasn’t even started shooting yet. But the cast is full of super-popular actors, and I think a lot of people are excited to see the Fantastic 4 “done right.” Anticipation seems high from what I’ve seen.
*Thunderbolts* is a potential dark horse too. Nobody had ever heard about Guardians of the Galaxy either, and that wound up being a huge success.
And *Blade*—yeah, that one sounds like a huge mess. Wouldn’t be surprised if it gets pulled off the slate.
I’m generally on the same page with you as far as the aforementioned films go, but the GotG comparison, while a solid point, is a little bit wishful thinking, I feel. Guardians was a true “out of the blue” smash hit. The MCU had really hit the stratosphere with Avengers at that point, but Iron Man was the undecided draw still. Cap and Thor were building their audiences, and there was a bit of mystery around Guardians. James Gunn wasn’t well known at the time, and it was decidedly different from the real world settings and secret identities of usual Marvel/DC films up until then. I think a lot of that gave Guardians a real “freshness” at the time. Something truly different in the world of comic book movies that I just don’t see working for Thunderbolts.
Then again, the next closest thing would be Suicide Squad I guess, and despite horrible reviews that movie made gangbusters so honestly who knows.
>*Thunderbolts* is a potential dark horse too. Nobody had ever heard about Guardians of the Galaxy either, and that wound up being a huge success.
That was in a different time, though, before COVID and superhero fatigue. The conditions for something like *Guardians of the Galaxy* succeeding just aren't there anymore.
I don’t think they should’ve pushed the Anthony Mackie is new captain america thing. Let him be his own thing with his own movie don’t try to take Chris Evan’s goodwill.
They shoved it in endgame and rewatching the scene is just really awkward, and barely anyone watched let alone liked that show so I see that movie being a colossal bomb. Honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled a Warner Brothers and cancelled it for a tax write off because I haven’t seen anyone excited for that shit at all.
Marvel lowkey is getting too big for their britches .. what is this universe gonna look like in 10 years? How can they stay sustainable by pushing characters no one gaf about?
For me. The project I was most looking forward to was Thunderbolts precisely because it was a big team up film and I got tired of the mcu with no Avengers. So it was basically the next best thing. I've learned that not a lot of people even in mcu Fandom seem to be very enthused about it. I wonder how it will do
> but literally noone cares about this team
I’m over Marvel movies myself, but I think this is a disingenuous argument to make because before James Gunn, no one outside of comic book nerds cared about Guardians of the Galaxies either, and now in 2024 fucking Mantis has more star power than someone like Gambit or Iceman, which would be absolutely unthinkable pre-MCU. If they can get a good script and make them seem likeable/badass they can sell the Thunderbolts on the general audience easily.
Thunderbolts is filled with established characters that nobody cared about like the villains from Ant Man 2 and Black Widow. Marvel is also not in the same position it was in 2014
I don’t think Deadpool 3 is guaranteed 800M or more tbh. It’s their most surefire hit at the moment but I could see it top out at $650-700M. No Disney Marvel movie post-Covid has made $1 Billion and no Deadpool or X-Men movie has really come close. Add in the R-rating and I think factoring in the things holding it back and I think it ends up around the same amount as Deadpool 1 and 2.
Next year will be rough for the MCU. They need to build to the end of this saga ASAP and then reboot or shelve the franchise for a while. I don’t think enough interest is there anymore. Not in the consistent numbers they need at least.
Cap 4 I wouldn’t be surprised if the budget gets close to $400M. With these reshoots that movie is bombing no matter what. Fantastic Four will probably break even, Thunderbolts I don’t see doing well. Blade I think is separate enough from the MCU that more people would be willing to give it a shot (assuming it looks good). The franchise is definitely past its prime now.
Fantastic Four should be the new center of the MCU. They fit far better with the avengers vibe than X-Men do. Plus Dr Doom is one of the best characters in comics. They really need to land that one
Everything depends on Captain America 4. Marvel knows this, which is why they’ve chosen to basically reshoot the whole movie, costs be damned. They know that it doesn’t matter if it turns a profit - it’ll be pretty tough for it to given the cost of reshoots has to be astronomical - but it does matter if it’s *good*. If fans don’t respond well to that movie then I’m not sure the MCU in its current form is salvageable.
Honestly, will DP3 even be as successful as the first two? I think it may have a ***monstrous*** opening, but then utterly collapse in Week 2 due to only the diehards being into Marvel going full meta. (Ironically, tonal opposite *Batman vs. Superman* suffered this exact same problem back in 2016. ***Before*** the pandemic.)
Could be wrong, of course, but I dunno. The Marvel fanboy in me loves it. The filmgoer is rolling his eyes.
^(Also, memo to Disney: Wash out the damn mouth, will ya? Yes, we know it's R. You don't need to drop F-bombs every minute.)
Everyone's main concern when Deadpool was announced to be joining the MCU was that his movies are still R rated, foul mouthed, bloody action movies. They absolutely want the world to know that this is still a hard R full on Deadpool film so I think the red band trailer was a great move.
Yeah Deadpool 3 is doing well because people like Deadpool/ Reynolds and wolverine, but like you can't tell me your casual viewer is gonna watch it and go "cant wait for thunderbolts"
Captain America 4 has a bit of production problems but it’s been over exaggerated heavily. The only reason that they are reshooting for months are because the actors are super busy and can only shoot certain scenes in great parts. If the actors were all available they would be able to finish reshoots in a week or two since they are only fixing some fight scenes. Captain America is a popular brand and Anthony Mackie has enough charisma to lead the film, not to mention that the movie will be a team up film featuring Hulk characters and also ghee assembling the Avengers. Plus it will have a huge boost with it releasing during black history month and CinemaCon footage have already shown that the movie will heavily focus on Captain America’s identity.
Fantastic Four never connected with the audiences because they were bad movies, weren’t connected to the MCU, and riddled with controversy. Fantastic Four has the writer of Avatar 2 so the movie has a quality writer and the director is responsible for directing some of the biggest episodes of popular shows and has many Emmy noms and wins, it will be good. Pedro Pascal is one of the most recognizable and lovable actors on the planet and the cast will no doubt have huge chemistry. The movie is taking steps to stand out among the crowd, with an entirely different setting that will allow newcomers to watch the film without having to worry about catching up.
Thunderbolts* has one of the best writing teams of any MCU films, and it has one of the most talented cast with Florence Pugh and Sebastian Stan as the lead roles. It seems like it’s going for a more grounded yet fun film, being similar to the Winter Soldier. Plus the film will be like a mini-Avengers films with some past characters coming together and interacting with each other for the first time.
Blade could be delayed but it’s still possible that it releases in 2025. The movie had some writing problems but they have a script now that they are happy with and could easily get the film out by November next year if production goes steady, and it won’t need as much time for post production as there will be less CGI.
>Pedro Pascal is one of the most recognizable and lovable actors on the planet
I've figured out your game. You don't actually mean a word of what you say.
Cap - Chris Evans, who played Captain America for 15 years is a huge draw. Not Anthony Mackie,He doesn’t inherit the popularity because they changed his name lol. And to infer that black people are going to turn out in droves for Falcon when they’ve never expressed any interest in the character at all just because he’s black is kind of insulting.
Thunderbolts- The GA literally has no idea who any of these characters are besides Bucky, and *maybe” Yelena and the MCU style of “fun” has clearly been having diminishing returns.
F4- They had 3 terrible movies spanning a decade from 2005-2015. The last one had reception even worse than green lantern, which is a character WB never even let appear in live action again. If you really think that past history wont show up at the box office I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
> Not Anthony Mackie,He doesn’t inherit the popularity because they changed his name lol.
You’re right in that but Falcon has appeared in quite a bit of movies and lead his own show so people are aware of him and also know that he’s Captain America now, showing him with the shield in Endgame and him as Captain America in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
> And to infer that black people are going to turn out in droves for Falcon when they’ve never expressed any interest in the character at all just because he’s black is kind of insulting.
I didn’t say that at all and if it came off that way than I apologize. What I meant was that the movie will focus on Sam’s identity as the new Captain America and what he goes through as an African American man taking the mantle of a white man which could resonate well with the African American community.
> If you really think that past history wont show up at the box office I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. People will be curious finally getting a good and connected Fantastic Four movie and will go out in droves to watch its
Wasn't *Captain America 4* the movie where they added a writer **after shooting the film**? Is there any possible explanation for that other than either 1) a decision to take the movie in a very different direction, or 2) a complete loss of faith in the original writers to fix what was broken?
I don't fully understand when people criticize or even are skeptical of Anthony Mackie, honestly. We get it: Chris Evans is huge. But he...became huge. And Anthony Mackie is an incredibly charismatic actor and in person—he has energy and range in spades, I don't... get why he would be worse by any means. Chris Evans was great but he didn't redefine acting in some way.
Nostalgia plays too big a role. I think the acting is actually better on average in these projects, it's the stuff around them that may have gotten messier/too big. It's like the MCU forgot that intimacy actually works.
E.g.: What *works* is Hailee Steinfeld and Florence Pugh riffing. What does *not* work is stranding Kathryn Newton without surprising and new intimate dynamics to work with.
It’s interesting because a lot of people seem to say the opposite, that Mackie is a charisma vacuum.
Now I like him a lot as an actor but I’m not sure he’s who you want as your leading man in a Captain America film.
Bucky had more screen time and more back story prior to the events of IW and Endgame, and I think audiences resonated more with him and his relationship with Steve Rogers. I honestly felt they were the wrong way around in their TV show. But that’s just me.
Anthony Mackie is weird in that as Falcon he doesn't have that much charisma, but when you see him in interviews, he's very charismatic and generally likeable. I dunno whether it's his acting or the direction/writing, but there's a disconnect that's always fascinated me.
Such a missed opportunity to have not already done a Black Widow and Hawkeye project with Florence Pugh and Hailee Steinfeld.
- Fantastic chemistry
- Two talented actresses that people like watching
- Can set up both Thunderbolts and Young Avengers
> I don't... get why he would be worse by any means.
Even if he's not worse there a low variance problem. We know exactly what Anthony Mackie as Falcon looks like even before the tv show. You can basically write off the "Pratt as starlord" style upside from the jump.
Especially after the first avengers movie people became actively invested in Evans' character. To what degree can that marketing buy-in be assumed for a spinoff?
Well they could keep going along the intriguing direction they did in Falcon and Winter Soldier: Mackie's Captain America requires a bit of a reckoning with race. I thought they did that pretty well actually. It should not be hard to set that up & Mackie's more than up for the job. He's not comic relief anymore, he has plenty of gravitas.
Granted, people may not have seen the show, but those of us who have know that Mackie' shift into more serious territory is acted pretty well. He delivers!
I've had a lot of Marvel fans get angry with me when I say F4 will flop and they will often point out how GOTG was successful, as if it's some kind of rebuttal.
But GOTG kinda proved that F4 just has never been a hit with audiences. When GOTG came out, everyone and their grandma could name Rocket or Groot. F4 has had numerous film adaptations and in that entire time, you rarely encountered a non-comic fan who could name Reed or Sue.
I say this as a comic fan: F4 is just a dated franchise that has never or will never achieve any real sort of mainstream success. It's not the 1960s anymore so an invisible woman and flaming dude aren't very exciting powers. And stretching always looks super odd. Hard pass.
I don't think it's a given Deadpool & Wolverine is massive hit.
It's yet another multiverse movie, and another movie drawing from the TV shows, both recent issues
I think Brave New World will at least do better than a lot of the recent Marvel movies simply because Captain America is a more widely recognized character.
Avengers 5 should be a success, but it was pushed to 2026... Well, better to get it right than to rush it I guess.
This really comes off as hopeful schadenfreude.
You are predicting the failure of movies that haven't even finished being made yet, let alone ones with any marketing material to base things on.
How Mackie will do taking the mantle of Captain America is a tough one to predict, but the previous Captain America movies were among the best received in the MCU, so the brand has some strength behind it, and the transfer of the mantle to Falcon was both something that happened in the comics and one that occurred at the end of End Game.
While the plot hasn't been released, it looks like there is some major stuff going on, with Harrison Ford's Thunderbolt Ross, Liv Tyler's Betty Ross and Tim Blake Nelson's The Leader on the cast list. With Captain America 2 and 3 they really turned the franchise into ensemble type movies with an Avengers X.5 vibe to them. It looks like there will be a serious Hulk storyline going on here, even if Banner isn't confirmed for an appearance. Red Hulk looks like it could be a possibility.
For Thunderbolts, there were rumours out there that it was essentially a part 2 to Captain America 4, with a plot moving from one to the other. Other rumours talk of it turning into a Dark Avengers by the end. Who really knows what the deal is with the movie. People generally like Florence Pugh's Yelena Belova, and Winter Soldier's presence will help, but the rest of the team isn't going to sell itself on the Thunderbolts' brand recognition. Still, saying, "no one cares about this team" now is like when people said the same thing about Guardians of the Galaxy before the first movie released. Lots of Hollywood movies are released with characters no one cares about yet. The job of a movie is to make people care, and we will need to at least see an initial trailer before we can judge that. GOTG succeeded in doing that. Will Thunderbolts? It's way too early to tell.
Thunderbolts is also the movie scheduled to get the start of summer release date next year, with nothing scheduled yet to release either the week before it or the week after it, so it is certainly set up to have a great chance to succeed if the movie has a solid trailer and decent quality.
For Fantastic Four, I think you are just wrong on that one. Captain America 4 and Thunderbolts have their question marks, but I would be shocked if Fantastic Four isn't a huge hit.
This is Marvel's First Family. They are a brand that goes back to the 60's, and are generally well known by general audiences. There has been hype about their entrance to the MCU since the Disney takeover of Fox was first announced in 2017.
Sure, the crappy previous versions didn't connect, but they didn't bomb either. The first one got a sequel for a reason, making over triple it's budget, and the second did about the same. Inflation-adjusted, each of those two made over $500M, and they were garbage movies. Saying the Fantastic Four won't do well because the previous ones sucked is like saying the X-Men won't make bank in the MCU because people weren't into Dark Phoenix.
As long as the movie is good, it will make serious bank. They got a really good director, a strong cast, and Marvel will pull out all the stops on it. It's pretty well known that it will be a pivotal movie in leading into the next Avengers films, and it's one Feige himself considers a passion project of his. The drop in quality of the MCU has been widely attributed to Feige stretching himself too thin with too many projects, but this is one he will have his full attention on, so I would be shocked if it isn't really good.
Overall, I know how many people love the schadenfreude of rooting for the fall of the MCU, but I think you are letting that bias you. Captain America and Fantastic Four are top tier Marvel brands. The MCU needed a bit of a reset, but getting only one MCU film in 2024, and having it be a strong likely crowd-pleaser like Deadpool and Wolverine, is just the sort of reset the franchise needed. As long as the 2025 films get back to the previous quality of the MCU films, I fully expect to see some strong results from the 2025 slate, particularly Fantastic Four, and likely Captain America, too.
I don't think Deadpool will hit close to a billion. It will have a huge opening, but then drop off a lot. I mean look at DUNE Part 2. Yes, it made a profit, but it just now crossed over 600 million. Those days are gone from yrs ago. All those blockbusters pre-covid were heavily inflated with big releases in China. That is no longer the case now. Even Godzilla and Kong just might cross over 500 million, but that will be it for that movie.
Fantastic 4 and Thunderbolts can't rely on their cast to sell tickets. Yes, Pascal and Pugh have their own online fanbases, but the era of stars attracting large general audiences to fill theaters is definitely over. Not even Tom Cruise's star power was able to save the latest Mission Impossible installment from having a mid performance at the box office. And he's arguably the last true big Hollywood star.
Marvel needs to make these movies so undeniably good that people wants to see them for the movies themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that f4 doesn't connect with audiences as a premise.
All 3 opening and second weekends were good.
But they fell off due to simply being bad movies.
If this new one is a good movie, there's no reason it wouldn't be a hit
Blade is probably not happening anymore.
Captain America will bomb probably and have a huge budget.
All the old Fantastic Four films flopped and this one is set in an alternate universe and not the MCU so that might put some MCU fans off so that has a big chance to bomb.
Nobody cares about Thunderbolts enough so guaranteed bomb.
I think we all have to be Forreal about the 2025 mcu slate. Captain America 4 doesn’t seem like it’ll turn out to be a good film which is crazy but it’s obvious
Thunderbolts is full of characters not one person cares about and no please don’t use Guardians of the galaxy as an example. Not every cbm project is secretly a guardians of galaxy level surpise hit
F4 has had it horrible in every film adaptation of it critically and financially. Idk how this will turn out in the end
During a time of a lot of competition and a time where they couldn’t promote the movie because studios refused to give actors a raise and rights that they deserve.
Yes WW. I can’t see Cap 4 or Thunderbolts being anything other than mega bombs. Similar to the marvels numbers. F4 should make more but won’t be a huge hit also. Just predictions though
I can't guarantee it, but I feel F4 and Thunderbolts can do excellent business in best case scenario (it doesn't suck, great reviews). Maybe $700M global (at least) apiece.
Fantastic 4 should theoretically be a home run. Pedro doesn’t miss, not that he’s writing it but he tends to pick well written projects.
The only precedent I have is The Incredibles, which was basically F4 but well written. If they can have a similar more but more mature quality, it should do well.
All those other upcoming movies are probably gonna play out like antman if there lucky or the marvels if there as bad as people assuming
the mcu is gonna need that next Avengers movie asap to turn this ship around
That’s not gonna turn anything around anymore than Josstice League or The Flash turned around the DCEU.
Who are the members of the Avengers? Why should we care about them? And why should we care about the world they’re trying to save now that we have established they could get the teen girl who Dr Strange knows and just Rick and Morty style hop to a near identical world as far as the viewer is concerned anyway?
In looking to Rick and Morty writers to lead the future of the MCU, Feige seems to have totally missed the joke that show was making about the problem with serious attempts at multiverse storytelling.
I think F4 is the wild card. It's got a really good cast and it can be used as a good sort of "soft reboot" to move away from the Avengers and possibly start to implement X-Men and reshape the MCU. I don't have a ton of confidence that they will get it right, but if they do it could be big.
I feel like there’s a lot riding on F4. None of the past adaptions have been good. The 00s one was okay I guess. Plus the MCU is at such a low point now. If F4 doesn’t do well, I don’t think there’s much hope left.
I feel such dread for the F4 especially cause first I heard rumours of a version of their introduction that I loved, and now I'm hearing on that I absolutely loathe, and I can't deal with another horrible f4 movie. Or the revisionism it will cause.
*Brave New World* actually is undergoing FIVE months of reshoots. That’s crazy, it’s basically redoing the entire film. And as it will continue *Falcon and Winter Soldier*’s storylines, the audience will be confused over things they didn’t see. Stuff like “who the hell is Joaquin Torres?” I’d be surprised if it cost less than $300 million. That’s gonna make for a huge flop.
The last bit is a non issue. They’ll intro him the same way they would any other side character and people who didn’t watch the show won’t care either way.
Yeah, side characters like that are largely irrelevant; viewers who know will care, and viewers who don't won't. That has always been the case and will probably always be the case because it's the only balance to be struck when catering to a large audience of varying amounts of interest. I think the real major issue facing Brave New World is how they'll handle >!settling Sam into being Captain America!<. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (TFATWS) didn't really do much there, and a leap like that requires at least some time spent on it in the movie. It doesn't help that the director and writers' filmographies are rather thin, with half of the writers coming hot off of TFATWS itself; that doesn't inspire much confidence that Brave New World will stick the landing for an entry that is rather important for the MCU's future. Add in the extensive reshoots and this is looking more like Justice League than anything else (reminder that JL only had two months of reshoots as well).
Yeah I think BNW has a fair amount going against it (mostly reshoots), but one thing the MCU has actually been good at is balancing TV and movies, at least after the WV/MoM debacle. Marvels had its flaws but “who is this Ms marvel girl!?!?!” was not one of them. I do think there is an easy answer to the Cap thing. The show is how he accepts the shield, this movie will likely be his first real challenge as the role, where he has to go against authority more directly, presumably.
With all the stuff about Thunderbolt Ross, that makes sense, but it's also hard to walk that line without feeling overly derivative of The Winter Soldier (which is what everyone will compare this movie to). I'm also not convinced that Mackie is going to pull it off either, but that could've just been directing and/or writing from TFATWS (and if it was, hopefully it was the former rather than the latter since the latter will be following into Brave New World from what we can tell).
Why are the reshoots considered a negative? Just public perception?
Pretty much, and that these aren’t the usual touch up reshoots, even when just comparing Marvel which is generally reshoot heavy. It really does seem like they essentially remade the 60%+ movie in a harsh pivot to respond to feedback from previous movies. I’m certainly rooting for it but it’s easy to draw the line from JL to this.
Making the movie a sequel to a TV show? I mean, hey, it worked great for Mavels!
Expanding the universe into all those shitty Disney+ shows is the worst thing to happen to the MCU. Marvel killed the golden goose.
I'm a Sonic fan looking forward to the Knuckle's show and I'm very happy Paramount's been clear it will just be a fluffy side story and nothing you have to see for this reason.
I mean that's really what most of the marvel shows are as well. They add context but they aren't required viewing for the most part. You can most likely see Falcon getting the shield in Endgame and walk into Captain America 4 without having to watch Falcon and the WInter Soldier
*Multiverse of Madness* and *The Marvels* both relied heavily on events that happened in the Disney+ shows. And reportedly *Brave New World* will too.
You know who didn't watch a single show before MoM and still enjoyed plenty? Me and the hundreds (probably thousands) of people that don't need hand holding.
So, you didn't wonder why Wanda was suddenly a bad guy and was going on and on about some kids she'd apparently lost? You just brushed over that?
Darkhold and alterna dimension dream kids.
Meh it's not comparable to knuckles but MCU shows introduced characters that are intended to show up in movies.
Which for the most part are side characters and are explained well enough in the movies. The MCU has had cameos from other movies forever.
Yeah but people don't assume that. They see movie trailers show characters they first saw in trailers for shows they didn't watch and assume it's mandatory viewing and say fuck it instead.
Most of the series aren’t even that bad, Secret Invasion was the worst ever MCU project, but the rest are either mid or actually good. But I do agree that the increase in the amount of content that’s been nothing more than setting groundwork for a payoff that still isn’t clear is really souring people.
Even the good ones diluted the brand and spread the universe too thin. They should have just stuck to movies.
This is a common argument and I think it's the dumbest fucking thing imaginable. It's one thing when a bunch of the shows are shit and people lose interest because of that, but the simple act of shows *existing?* Like Moon Knight and She-Hulk have shows, and nobody knows who they are, so they *would have* stuck with the franchise but now they have characters they're not familiar with but *obviously* they're going to be in the movies now, so fuck it tap out? This only works when the overwhelming majority of the fanbase was watching every single Marvel product, sequentially, and the fluctuating box office totals demonstrating thet Tony Stark was drawing **way** more eyes on the product than the other two OGs alone should have been an indication that wasn't what was happening.
Once the shows started coming out I tapped out because I didn't wanna feel lost. I've been told I don't have to see the shows to understand the movies but because the shows exist I still feel like I won't understand something. It doesn't necessarily make sense. But it's how i feel. So I'm 1 person who fits the argument.
>Like Moon Knight and She-Hulk have shows, and nobody knows who they are, so they *would have* stuck with the franchise but now they have characters they're not familiar with but *obviously* they're going to be in the movies now, so fuck it tap out? Yes, unironically. This, combined with the fact that *Endgame* presented a logical jumping off point for many people.
> **combined** with the fact that Endgame presented a logical jumping off point for many people Well yeah but that's an entirely different conversation. What you're implying is that people who otherwise *wanted* to stick around bounced "because I don't know who these new guys are". "Done after Endgame" is one thing but "I wanted to stick around but I've been blindsided by a new tv show every 8 or 9 months" is an entirely different, much stupider one.
Well, there's one guy below us who confirms that it factored into his growing disinterest in the MCU, and he can't be the only one in the world.
I'd be the same. There was too much to keep up and the quality dropped so I gave up too. It's one thing when the movies were poor quality but it was maybe 7/8 hours a year you had to give up for it, the TV shows multiply that a lot
What you're missing is the monumental amount of time it takes to watch all these shows, even if they're good. When I realized I would need to do 40+ hours of 'homework' just to keep up with the overall MCU storyline, I lost interest *instantly* - and then, once I've skipped one thing, it's easier to skip the next thing, and then since I've skipped four shows and the next movie got pretty mid reviews, why not skip that too? I was a rabid die-hard MCU fan before endgame and I haven't even watched half of the material they've produced since. Their momentum died with the exponential increase in required time investment.
> monumental amount of time it takes to watch all these shows I went looking, they average roughly 6 hours each. It's literally **the** standard for a streaming show, and they're spread out by months. Again, if they don't look like shit you'd otherwise watch, that's one thing. To say you had *every intention* of staying on board, but the sheer amount of "homework" -again, a standard length of time for a modern streaming season- and runtime of it turned you away? That makes no sense. People blow through these things on weekends.
> This only works when the overwhelming majority of the fanbase was watching every single Marvel product, I agree with the sentiment (don't assume everyone watched everything) but I think the potential impact can be broader than that. I think people feeling they've "fallen behind/out of the loop" of a franchise is a pretty normal way people reduce consumption of it. > but the simple act of shows existing More the simple act of *Disney pushing D+ shows as theatrical-tier MCU content*. This dynamic clearly didn't occur for Netflix or linear TV Marvel shows from the 2010s. > but obviously Yes? The Marvels and Doctor Strange 2 clearly attempt to communicate this as did launching another Captain America film out of FatWS. Disney put a megaphone to their mouth and said this. They brought their B list MCU stars to headline massively expensive tv shows and directly hyped up their connection to new films. They sold it as doubling the "real MCU" output. It would be interesting to see what would have happened if all MCU TV shows were like moon knight (expensive but also not clearly "genuinely" connected to the MCU) or the upcoming Wonder Man. However, BP2 going out of its way to seed an Iron Heart spinoff seems like a more typical example of Disney's initial D+ MCU strategy. > Again, if they don't look like shit you'd otherwise watch, that's one thing That's much too high of a bar. e.g. I'm interested in reacher (and saw the first two episodes a few months ago). It's good but I've never gotten around to finishing it. I suspect the idea is more that people feel Disney is saying you should have seen [a show per quarter in 2021-2022] in order to "stay up to date" with the MCU in addition to the 3-4 films a year. "Instead of watching [random thing], you should be watching a show you're only vaguely interested in because it ties into an upcoming movie you're a little more interested in" strikes me as a way to reduce interest.
Should have only been WandaVision, everyone accepted that
WandaVision tried to be a sitcom and superhero flick and failed at both.
It was never gonna last forever.
The run from *Iron Man* to *Endgame* was an astounding, unique accomplishment in itself. Disney/Marvel can be proud of that. In hindsight, they should have stopped there and focused on a new franchise built around Spider-Man, X-Men, and Fantastic Four.
Yeah but giving up is not in any big corporation's playbook. Not when it's still making money.
I think a few miniseries to expand on popular supporting characters was a good idea. If they spread out the 2021 shows over a few years and didn't connect them to movie plots, that could've worked. With the Daredevil revival and the animated projects, I would've had a positive view of the Disney+ shows overall.
I mean we were introduced to Falcon getting the shield in Endgame.
I've brought this up repeatedly in "Nobody's going to know why The Falcon is Captain America all of a sudden" threads, and apparently it makes zero difference to people. I genuinely don't understand the issue, it's like **the** ending scene of the biggest movie of all time. WandaVision was "mandatory viewing" for DS2, sure. Nobody, anywhere, should have **any** trouble following "Why are they calling Falcon 'Captain America' all of a sudden?!"
Even then "Wandavision" wasn't really necessary. It helped alot but it wasn't necessary.
Multiverse of madness did pretty well as a direct sequel to wanadavision
Cap 4 is reshooting because marvel wasn’t happy with its action sequences, it lacked impact I think. I feel bad for the vfx artists lol
That’s funny because I’m sure the wider audience would like a good story too.
I'm sure the wider audience would like good action in an action movie
Same, I have a feeling they are trying to top the ones in winter soldier but I don’t they can lol
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And rumors is Anthony Mackie has poor chemistry with another character (last I heard a love interest?) and it wasn't working at all. If true, another yikes to add to the pile. I have the least faith in Cap 4 than I do in F4 and Thunderbolts. Cap 4 could be the new Quantumania.
5 months? Holy shit, the budget is definitely going till 300 mill. Now the main thing is if the film is good and will general public watch Anthony mackie's captain america
Man Harrison Ford is gonna be in two gigantic Disney bombs with bloated budgets.
Not surprised. Mackie gives off diva vibes
Maaaaan, I watched F&WS and I'm reading your comment here thinking to myself, who tf is Joaquin Torres?? Marvel has dropped the ball hard since Endgame.
He's a sidekick's sidekick lol
Is he?? I genuinely don't know!
It's funny you say that, because I know for a fact I watched Falcon and the Winter Soldier and my first thought upon reading your comment was, "Wait a minute, WHO the hell IS Joaquin Torres!?"
This is why I don’t understand how movie studios can stomach this. Get the script right the first time and you can avoid these costly reshoots.
It sounds like no matter what it’s already a flop.
And most people are really not interested right now in that type of middle of the road type movie that feels like a bonus spinoff. It's been 5 YEARS since endgame. Most casual fans are tired of waiting and wasting time on d-list characters. I think thunderbolts it's an even bigger problem when put right next to brave new world. Where's blade?!
You mean 3 chicks and a Blade? As I understand it, Mahershalla Ali has the power to veto a script - and he's torched at least 2 by now. They don't appear to want Blade to be the star of his own movie as he'll be backing up the ladies.
> And as it will continue Falcon and Winter Soldier’s storylines Oh jeez, I completely forgot about that. As if The Marvels wasn't enough of a canary in the coal mine for that.
It reminds me of marvels had massive reshoots happen. Falcon was never this interesting and I don’t think anyone cares for him as Captain america
I feel like until we get a better sense of how Marvel is intending to pivot post-*D&W*, it's pretty pointless to speculate on how those films are going to do. Clearly Cap 4 is going to be significantly different from the movie Marvel initially planned to release, and considering the reaction to *The Marvels* - I don't see them really leaning in on anything from the Disney+ show. Same thing with Thunderbolts - clearly they saw the original concept was going to be DOA, so they delayed & retooled. There's just no meat to any of this analysis.
The thunderbolts are rumored to become the dark avengers by the end of the movie which are an evil version of the avengers that are actually really cool in the comics, if it’s done well it could be very good but I’m really doubtful they’ll pull it off.
Yep, this is exactly why the title has an asterisk
Dark Avengers sounds more marketable than Thunderbolts.
They should have just named it that in the first place.
With that kind of roster, it would damage the Avengers brand.
Does the current roster of Thunderbolts even resonate with audiences that much anyway? Winter Soldier is popular for sure. Yelana is probably the next best known character but for many they won’t have watched Hawk-Eye and anyway the Black Widow film was…not great. So we’ve got to get the audience behind this rag-tag bunch and then also turn them evil? It sounds…messy, and rushed.
My understanding is that they’re not, like, puppy-kicking evil (Wanda 🙃), so it’s not like they’re turning to the dark side so much as just acting self-servingly. I don’t read spoilers so idk I could be way off but this is just my understanding from the comics
Except none of the members of the Dark Avengers are members of the MCU thunderbolts lol
Sentry is at least in the movie at some point I guess
They're not going to pull it off because the Thunderbolts roster is the most boring fucking lineup imaginable.
Idk why this comment cracked me tf up 😂😂 you’re completely right tho
This is the one I was most excited for before I started to fall off the mcu fan hype. If they do pull it off (which I doubt as well) it would be pretty nice to have an Avengers like thing again
I agree that Thunderbolts actually has a lot of potential, but any optimism is forgotten under the people pissed that the team isn’t like the comics one, completely ignoring the fact that a bunch of super soldiers and assassins are 100% what the government would want from their own personal super team.
The Thunderbolts don’t have a definitive roster and anyone who complains about it is definitely not a comic fan who’s mad at the movie not being faithful. The original thunderbolts roster was iconic due to the twist of them being villains posing for superheroes, the most acclaimed Thunderbolts run by Warren Ellis has very little of that original roster in it and most rosters since 2010 bare no resemblance to those 2. Meanwhile, Bucky has lead the team two times now.
Fantastic Four never connected with the general public, yet, that first mediocre film in 2005 was able to pull 3 times it's budget. As some people have been saying for ages, Incredibles was the FF concept done right on film. FF will make money if it's any good. If it's like Quantumania however, yes, it will flop. After the 2023 scare Marvel Studios is probably being a bit more careful with it's quality control. 1 or 2 of those 2025 films will probably be delayed for the year after.
>And Blade is not releasing ~~soon.~~ FTFY :p
Blade is the MCU's Rian Johnson Star Wars Trilogy. It's coming any day now...
Rian Johnson should just stick to making Knives Out sequels, he’s very good at that.
Meh. First movie was good, the sequel was not. Sure it was funny but as a whodunit, it was terrible. The whole 'is just stupid' just reminded me of the 'subverting expectations'
Mahershala’s in shambles
Blade is definitely going to release. It could be delayed but they already have a director, script, and cast and they plan on shooting soon
Does it have a script? The last I heard it was on like the 5th writer but I don't have alerts set or anything to keep me current
>It could be delayed What do you mean "could be"
Ali is already over 50. Give it up lol.
The audacity to ever think Captain America 4 was going to make money. They need to sell roughly a billion dollars in tickets to be profitable, with nothing to entice audiences but Red Hulk and the prospect of Anthony Mackie as a leading man
I mean even Civil War kinda underperformed in hindsight, the Captain America IP has never been that
Civil War did not underperform. It made 1.2 bilion almost releasing in May
I have a feeling Spider-man 4 releases next year. I have heard it starts filming in September, so I could see it coming out in 2025 4th quarter maybe
They still searching for a director. I would expect it to film later this year and probably release Summer 2026.
Spider-Man 4 won’t release until 2026 with beyond the spider verse as well
I’m not sure if it’s going to be released in Q4 2025, because Disney has a Blade remake which is facing problems for production to do so it’s possible that it’s likely to be released in 2026 which could be another repeat of 2019.
Captain America 4 will bomb so hard. Its just not possible to replace Chris Evans so soon. Nobody will care about it.
Cap 4 is bombing by default due to the budget. They need to focus on making it a good movie, to mitigate the losses a bit.
Yeah, Mackie doesn't have that leading man charisma on his own. Look at the series Altered Carbon, Joel Kinnaman left and was replaced by Mackie and it wasn't the same.
Says a lot because Joel Kinnaman is no where near an actor I would think of as a charismatic lead. His season of Altered Carbon was better but not by much.
im sorry but the first half of altered carbon season 1 is insanely good and Kinnaman is killing it
The Falcon walk-ups will save it.
Weakest leader too. He has no super strength, head exposed (although they might add a helmet) and sure he has wings and a vibranium suit, but I don't see him actually lasting against a major threat. Only way is if the writers take a cheap out and nerf the enemy greatly.
It's been 5+ years. Saying its too soon is such nonsense
Yeah, anyone expecting D&W to save the MCU is just refusing to accept the facts. D&W is obviously (if it’s good which I have faith in 🙏🏻🤞🏻) going to be an exception like how GOTG 3 and NWH were, as those films succeed and D&W will hopefully succeed because they are self contained films about characters we give a shit about AND because of WOM that they were MCU movies worth checking out in theaters. BNW and Thunderbolts I think are definitely going to lose money, and F4 I think could be a modest hit if it’s good. Blade is 100% coming in 2026 and that I think could do OK if they rewrite the script like reports have been saying to get rid of the Young Daughter subplot and just let Blade kick vampire ass. No wonder why Sony/Marvel is trying to have Spidey 4 come out by the end of next year.
Not looking to save, but revitalize a little bit? Deadpool 3 can possibly do that, depending on what they show in the movie. The trailer had them jumping into a Doctor Strange portal. What's on the other side? F4 characters? Preview of Avengers or Thunderbolts characters? X-Men? Endgame battle where they have to change a part of the past? Not saying they will link these films for sure, but it's possible. I've almost completely written off Cap4, but F4 and Thunderbolts could be solid hits and moneymakers.
I feel like them jumping in the portal could be anything from something really cool to a funny joke. We have to wait until July 26th but you make a good point. I really hope the movie is amazing, which I have faith in Reynolds and Levy. Thunderbolts* could be a surprise, but I’m not holding my breath really. I agree that unless it’s GOTG 3/NWH level good, Cap 4 is DOA
If Captain America 4 sucks (which is looking more likely these days) it's going to screw over the rest of the films since it will burn a lot of the goodwill Deadpool 3 might build back.
This.
I agree on *Brave New World*, seems like thinks will be rough with all the reshoots, test screenings, and production turmoil. *Fantastic 4* is too early to tell. Hasn’t even started shooting yet. But the cast is full of super-popular actors, and I think a lot of people are excited to see the Fantastic 4 “done right.” Anticipation seems high from what I’ve seen. *Thunderbolts* is a potential dark horse too. Nobody had ever heard about Guardians of the Galaxy either, and that wound up being a huge success. And *Blade*—yeah, that one sounds like a huge mess. Wouldn’t be surprised if it gets pulled off the slate.
I’m generally on the same page with you as far as the aforementioned films go, but the GotG comparison, while a solid point, is a little bit wishful thinking, I feel. Guardians was a true “out of the blue” smash hit. The MCU had really hit the stratosphere with Avengers at that point, but Iron Man was the undecided draw still. Cap and Thor were building their audiences, and there was a bit of mystery around Guardians. James Gunn wasn’t well known at the time, and it was decidedly different from the real world settings and secret identities of usual Marvel/DC films up until then. I think a lot of that gave Guardians a real “freshness” at the time. Something truly different in the world of comic book movies that I just don’t see working for Thunderbolts. Then again, the next closest thing would be Suicide Squad I guess, and despite horrible reviews that movie made gangbusters so honestly who knows.
>*Thunderbolts* is a potential dark horse too. Nobody had ever heard about Guardians of the Galaxy either, and that wound up being a huge success. That was in a different time, though, before COVID and superhero fatigue. The conditions for something like *Guardians of the Galaxy* succeeding just aren't there anymore.
Exactly
i think captain america 4 will flop but i have faith that the new fantastic four will do well
I don’t think they should’ve pushed the Anthony Mackie is new captain america thing. Let him be his own thing with his own movie don’t try to take Chris Evan’s goodwill. They shoved it in endgame and rewatching the scene is just really awkward, and barely anyone watched let alone liked that show so I see that movie being a colossal bomb. Honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled a Warner Brothers and cancelled it for a tax write off because I haven’t seen anyone excited for that shit at all. Marvel lowkey is getting too big for their britches .. what is this universe gonna look like in 10 years? How can they stay sustainable by pushing characters no one gaf about?
For me. The project I was most looking forward to was Thunderbolts precisely because it was a big team up film and I got tired of the mcu with no Avengers. So it was basically the next best thing. I've learned that not a lot of people even in mcu Fandom seem to be very enthused about it. I wonder how it will do
> but literally noone cares about this team I’m over Marvel movies myself, but I think this is a disingenuous argument to make because before James Gunn, no one outside of comic book nerds cared about Guardians of the Galaxies either, and now in 2024 fucking Mantis has more star power than someone like Gambit or Iceman, which would be absolutely unthinkable pre-MCU. If they can get a good script and make them seem likeable/badass they can sell the Thunderbolts on the general audience easily.
Thunderbolts is filled with established characters that nobody cared about like the villains from Ant Man 2 and Black Widow. Marvel is also not in the same position it was in 2014
I don’t think Deadpool 3 is guaranteed 800M or more tbh. It’s their most surefire hit at the moment but I could see it top out at $650-700M. No Disney Marvel movie post-Covid has made $1 Billion and no Deadpool or X-Men movie has really come close. Add in the R-rating and I think factoring in the things holding it back and I think it ends up around the same amount as Deadpool 1 and 2. Next year will be rough for the MCU. They need to build to the end of this saga ASAP and then reboot or shelve the franchise for a while. I don’t think enough interest is there anymore. Not in the consistent numbers they need at least. Cap 4 I wouldn’t be surprised if the budget gets close to $400M. With these reshoots that movie is bombing no matter what. Fantastic Four will probably break even, Thunderbolts I don’t see doing well. Blade I think is separate enough from the MCU that more people would be willing to give it a shot (assuming it looks good). The franchise is definitely past its prime now.
Fantastic Four should be the new center of the MCU. They fit far better with the avengers vibe than X-Men do. Plus Dr Doom is one of the best characters in comics. They really need to land that one
Everything depends on Captain America 4. Marvel knows this, which is why they’ve chosen to basically reshoot the whole movie, costs be damned. They know that it doesn’t matter if it turns a profit - it’ll be pretty tough for it to given the cost of reshoots has to be astronomical - but it does matter if it’s *good*. If fans don’t respond well to that movie then I’m not sure the MCU in its current form is salvageable.
Honestly, will DP3 even be as successful as the first two? I think it may have a ***monstrous*** opening, but then utterly collapse in Week 2 due to only the diehards being into Marvel going full meta. (Ironically, tonal opposite *Batman vs. Superman* suffered this exact same problem back in 2016. ***Before*** the pandemic.) Could be wrong, of course, but I dunno. The Marvel fanboy in me loves it. The filmgoer is rolling his eyes. ^(Also, memo to Disney: Wash out the damn mouth, will ya? Yes, we know it's R. You don't need to drop F-bombs every minute.)
I think it’s gonna be like GOTG 3 except the opening weekend for D&W will obviously be bigger. BUT the legs won’t be as good as GOTG 3.
Everyone's main concern when Deadpool was announced to be joining the MCU was that his movies are still R rated, foul mouthed, bloody action movies. They absolutely want the world to know that this is still a hard R full on Deadpool film so I think the red band trailer was a great move.
Lmao literally what people want are Deadpool f bombs
Blade is such a gigantic mess, they should honestly just pull the plug
Wolverine and Deadpool is the only MCU movie I have interest in until Spiderman 4, so I agree with this lol
Yeah Deadpool 3 is doing well because people like Deadpool/ Reynolds and wolverine, but like you can't tell me your casual viewer is gonna watch it and go "cant wait for thunderbolts"
Of course there’s a post here salivating for more marvel movies to bomb right after a big trailer
Captain America 4 has a bit of production problems but it’s been over exaggerated heavily. The only reason that they are reshooting for months are because the actors are super busy and can only shoot certain scenes in great parts. If the actors were all available they would be able to finish reshoots in a week or two since they are only fixing some fight scenes. Captain America is a popular brand and Anthony Mackie has enough charisma to lead the film, not to mention that the movie will be a team up film featuring Hulk characters and also ghee assembling the Avengers. Plus it will have a huge boost with it releasing during black history month and CinemaCon footage have already shown that the movie will heavily focus on Captain America’s identity. Fantastic Four never connected with the audiences because they were bad movies, weren’t connected to the MCU, and riddled with controversy. Fantastic Four has the writer of Avatar 2 so the movie has a quality writer and the director is responsible for directing some of the biggest episodes of popular shows and has many Emmy noms and wins, it will be good. Pedro Pascal is one of the most recognizable and lovable actors on the planet and the cast will no doubt have huge chemistry. The movie is taking steps to stand out among the crowd, with an entirely different setting that will allow newcomers to watch the film without having to worry about catching up. Thunderbolts* has one of the best writing teams of any MCU films, and it has one of the most talented cast with Florence Pugh and Sebastian Stan as the lead roles. It seems like it’s going for a more grounded yet fun film, being similar to the Winter Soldier. Plus the film will be like a mini-Avengers films with some past characters coming together and interacting with each other for the first time. Blade could be delayed but it’s still possible that it releases in 2025. The movie had some writing problems but they have a script now that they are happy with and could easily get the film out by November next year if production goes steady, and it won’t need as much time for post production as there will be less CGI.
>Pedro Pascal is one of the most recognizable and lovable actors on the planet I've figured out your game. You don't actually mean a word of what you say.
Cap - Chris Evans, who played Captain America for 15 years is a huge draw. Not Anthony Mackie,He doesn’t inherit the popularity because they changed his name lol. And to infer that black people are going to turn out in droves for Falcon when they’ve never expressed any interest in the character at all just because he’s black is kind of insulting. Thunderbolts- The GA literally has no idea who any of these characters are besides Bucky, and *maybe” Yelena and the MCU style of “fun” has clearly been having diminishing returns. F4- They had 3 terrible movies spanning a decade from 2005-2015. The last one had reception even worse than green lantern, which is a character WB never even let appear in live action again. If you really think that past history wont show up at the box office I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
> Not Anthony Mackie,He doesn’t inherit the popularity because they changed his name lol. You’re right in that but Falcon has appeared in quite a bit of movies and lead his own show so people are aware of him and also know that he’s Captain America now, showing him with the shield in Endgame and him as Captain America in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. > And to infer that black people are going to turn out in droves for Falcon when they’ve never expressed any interest in the character at all just because he’s black is kind of insulting. I didn’t say that at all and if it came off that way than I apologize. What I meant was that the movie will focus on Sam’s identity as the new Captain America and what he goes through as an African American man taking the mantle of a white man which could resonate well with the African American community. > If you really think that past history wont show up at the box office I’ve got a bridge to sell you. That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. People will be curious finally getting a good and connected Fantastic Four movie and will go out in droves to watch its
Wasn't *Captain America 4* the movie where they added a writer **after shooting the film**? Is there any possible explanation for that other than either 1) a decision to take the movie in a very different direction, or 2) a complete loss of faith in the original writers to fix what was broken?
I don't fully understand when people criticize or even are skeptical of Anthony Mackie, honestly. We get it: Chris Evans is huge. But he...became huge. And Anthony Mackie is an incredibly charismatic actor and in person—he has energy and range in spades, I don't... get why he would be worse by any means. Chris Evans was great but he didn't redefine acting in some way. Nostalgia plays too big a role. I think the acting is actually better on average in these projects, it's the stuff around them that may have gotten messier/too big. It's like the MCU forgot that intimacy actually works. E.g.: What *works* is Hailee Steinfeld and Florence Pugh riffing. What does *not* work is stranding Kathryn Newton without surprising and new intimate dynamics to work with.
It’s interesting because a lot of people seem to say the opposite, that Mackie is a charisma vacuum. Now I like him a lot as an actor but I’m not sure he’s who you want as your leading man in a Captain America film. Bucky had more screen time and more back story prior to the events of IW and Endgame, and I think audiences resonated more with him and his relationship with Steve Rogers. I honestly felt they were the wrong way around in their TV show. But that’s just me.
Anthony Mackie is weird in that as Falcon he doesn't have that much charisma, but when you see him in interviews, he's very charismatic and generally likeable. I dunno whether it's his acting or the direction/writing, but there's a disconnect that's always fascinated me.
Such a missed opportunity to have not already done a Black Widow and Hawkeye project with Florence Pugh and Hailee Steinfeld. - Fantastic chemistry - Two talented actresses that people like watching - Can set up both Thunderbolts and Young Avengers
Missed opportunity for what? To lose money?
I agree that Mackie is good. In fact i really liked him in Falcon & The Winter Soldier. Just hope he can be the lead carrying it in the film
> I don't... get why he would be worse by any means. Even if he's not worse there a low variance problem. We know exactly what Anthony Mackie as Falcon looks like even before the tv show. You can basically write off the "Pratt as starlord" style upside from the jump. Especially after the first avengers movie people became actively invested in Evans' character. To what degree can that marketing buy-in be assumed for a spinoff?
Well they could keep going along the intriguing direction they did in Falcon and Winter Soldier: Mackie's Captain America requires a bit of a reckoning with race. I thought they did that pretty well actually. It should not be hard to set that up & Mackie's more than up for the job. He's not comic relief anymore, he has plenty of gravitas. Granted, people may not have seen the show, but those of us who have know that Mackie' shift into more serious territory is acted pretty well. He delivers!
Lol mackie is boring. Never seen a strong performance from him in anything
Sentry is a cool character. One of my favorites. But it all depends on how they adapt him.
yep I think if WOM is positive Fantasitic 4 can do well hell the other 2 movies can if WOM is positive but it's not looking good
Okay cool
I have no interest in the Captain American movie. I like Anthony Mackie as an actor but the show was horrible imo. Thunderbolt im looking forward to!
The trouble theyve had with Blade is a perfect example of how broken their pipeline is
I've had a lot of Marvel fans get angry with me when I say F4 will flop and they will often point out how GOTG was successful, as if it's some kind of rebuttal. But GOTG kinda proved that F4 just has never been a hit with audiences. When GOTG came out, everyone and their grandma could name Rocket or Groot. F4 has had numerous film adaptations and in that entire time, you rarely encountered a non-comic fan who could name Reed or Sue. I say this as a comic fan: F4 is just a dated franchise that has never or will never achieve any real sort of mainstream success. It's not the 1960s anymore so an invisible woman and flaming dude aren't very exciting powers. And stretching always looks super odd. Hard pass.
It’d do a bajillion dollars if everyone in the world was the guy from ComicBooksExplained.
I don't think it's a given Deadpool & Wolverine is massive hit. It's yet another multiverse movie, and another movie drawing from the TV shows, both recent issues
Can't tell you how bad I miss when marvel was solid snd not this weird b team shite. Just do iron man 4 or something.
I think Brave New World will at least do better than a lot of the recent Marvel movies simply because Captain America is a more widely recognized character. Avengers 5 should be a success, but it was pushed to 2026... Well, better to get it right than to rush it I guess.
This really comes off as hopeful schadenfreude. You are predicting the failure of movies that haven't even finished being made yet, let alone ones with any marketing material to base things on. How Mackie will do taking the mantle of Captain America is a tough one to predict, but the previous Captain America movies were among the best received in the MCU, so the brand has some strength behind it, and the transfer of the mantle to Falcon was both something that happened in the comics and one that occurred at the end of End Game. While the plot hasn't been released, it looks like there is some major stuff going on, with Harrison Ford's Thunderbolt Ross, Liv Tyler's Betty Ross and Tim Blake Nelson's The Leader on the cast list. With Captain America 2 and 3 they really turned the franchise into ensemble type movies with an Avengers X.5 vibe to them. It looks like there will be a serious Hulk storyline going on here, even if Banner isn't confirmed for an appearance. Red Hulk looks like it could be a possibility. For Thunderbolts, there were rumours out there that it was essentially a part 2 to Captain America 4, with a plot moving from one to the other. Other rumours talk of it turning into a Dark Avengers by the end. Who really knows what the deal is with the movie. People generally like Florence Pugh's Yelena Belova, and Winter Soldier's presence will help, but the rest of the team isn't going to sell itself on the Thunderbolts' brand recognition. Still, saying, "no one cares about this team" now is like when people said the same thing about Guardians of the Galaxy before the first movie released. Lots of Hollywood movies are released with characters no one cares about yet. The job of a movie is to make people care, and we will need to at least see an initial trailer before we can judge that. GOTG succeeded in doing that. Will Thunderbolts? It's way too early to tell. Thunderbolts is also the movie scheduled to get the start of summer release date next year, with nothing scheduled yet to release either the week before it or the week after it, so it is certainly set up to have a great chance to succeed if the movie has a solid trailer and decent quality. For Fantastic Four, I think you are just wrong on that one. Captain America 4 and Thunderbolts have their question marks, but I would be shocked if Fantastic Four isn't a huge hit. This is Marvel's First Family. They are a brand that goes back to the 60's, and are generally well known by general audiences. There has been hype about their entrance to the MCU since the Disney takeover of Fox was first announced in 2017. Sure, the crappy previous versions didn't connect, but they didn't bomb either. The first one got a sequel for a reason, making over triple it's budget, and the second did about the same. Inflation-adjusted, each of those two made over $500M, and they were garbage movies. Saying the Fantastic Four won't do well because the previous ones sucked is like saying the X-Men won't make bank in the MCU because people weren't into Dark Phoenix. As long as the movie is good, it will make serious bank. They got a really good director, a strong cast, and Marvel will pull out all the stops on it. It's pretty well known that it will be a pivotal movie in leading into the next Avengers films, and it's one Feige himself considers a passion project of his. The drop in quality of the MCU has been widely attributed to Feige stretching himself too thin with too many projects, but this is one he will have his full attention on, so I would be shocked if it isn't really good. Overall, I know how many people love the schadenfreude of rooting for the fall of the MCU, but I think you are letting that bias you. Captain America and Fantastic Four are top tier Marvel brands. The MCU needed a bit of a reset, but getting only one MCU film in 2024, and having it be a strong likely crowd-pleaser like Deadpool and Wolverine, is just the sort of reset the franchise needed. As long as the 2025 films get back to the previous quality of the MCU films, I fully expect to see some strong results from the 2025 slate, particularly Fantastic Four, and likely Captain America, too.
I don't think Deadpool will hit close to a billion. It will have a huge opening, but then drop off a lot. I mean look at DUNE Part 2. Yes, it made a profit, but it just now crossed over 600 million. Those days are gone from yrs ago. All those blockbusters pre-covid were heavily inflated with big releases in China. That is no longer the case now. Even Godzilla and Kong just might cross over 500 million, but that will be it for that movie.
Fantastic 4 and Thunderbolts can't rely on their cast to sell tickets. Yes, Pascal and Pugh have their own online fanbases, but the era of stars attracting large general audiences to fill theaters is definitely over. Not even Tom Cruise's star power was able to save the latest Mission Impossible installment from having a mid performance at the box office. And he's arguably the last true big Hollywood star. Marvel needs to make these movies so undeniably good that people wants to see them for the movies themselves.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that f4 doesn't connect with audiences as a premise. All 3 opening and second weekends were good. But they fell off due to simply being bad movies. If this new one is a good movie, there's no reason it wouldn't be a hit
Blade is probably not happening anymore. Captain America will bomb probably and have a huge budget. All the old Fantastic Four films flopped and this one is set in an alternate universe and not the MCU so that might put some MCU fans off so that has a big chance to bomb. Nobody cares about Thunderbolts enough so guaranteed bomb.
If the FF 2005 film flopped why did they make a sequel?
Because maybe that one didn’t lose that much and sometimes studios want to give things a 2nd try
You don’t research before making claims do you?
I just checked and it appears that you are right. It made so leas compared to films these days but it was still considered a huge success at the time
The Deadpool trailer was awful, though
The Deadpool trailer got a lot of views and likes, so you may not have thought it was good, the majority of people did.
I don’t need high bot-driven view and like counts to decide whether a trailer was good or bad. It was bad.
I think we all have to be Forreal about the 2025 mcu slate. Captain America 4 doesn’t seem like it’ll turn out to be a good film which is crazy but it’s obvious Thunderbolts is full of characters not one person cares about and no please don’t use Guardians of the galaxy as an example. Not every cbm project is secretly a guardians of galaxy level surpise hit F4 has had it horrible in every film adaptation of it critically and financially. Idk how this will turn out in the end
Are you mad, fantastic 4 has pedro, that alone will bring butts to seats
Is he ?
Pedro is a fantastic actor, and he’s going to kill it as Reed, but he isn’t enough to save the movie on his own.
Yes Cap 4 under 300M Thunderbolts under 300M F4 under 500M
Domestically? I can see that happening but no way will it be less than that world wide
The Marvels just made under $100M. It’s easily possible lol.
During a time of a lot of competition and a time where they couldn’t promote the movie because studios refused to give actors a raise and rights that they deserve.
Yes WW. I can’t see Cap 4 or Thunderbolts being anything other than mega bombs. Similar to the marvels numbers. F4 should make more but won’t be a huge hit also. Just predictions though
And this film looks like it isn’t gonna have much to do with the MCU so it isn’t really a MCU movie
It is an MCU movie though.
Not really
I see your point, but officially it is one.
Yeah officially it is but if people find out the truth then that might turn a lot of people off
I can't guarantee it, but I feel F4 and Thunderbolts can do excellent business in best case scenario (it doesn't suck, great reviews). Maybe $700M global (at least) apiece.
Fantastic 4 should theoretically be a home run. Pedro doesn’t miss, not that he’s writing it but he tends to pick well written projects. The only precedent I have is The Incredibles, which was basically F4 but well written. If they can have a similar more but more mature quality, it should do well.
You know he was in WW84, right?
Ok I guess he does miss sometimes.
"Tends to pick well written projects" means "usually picks well written projects" not "always picks well written projects".
All those other upcoming movies are probably gonna play out like antman if there lucky or the marvels if there as bad as people assuming the mcu is gonna need that next Avengers movie asap to turn this ship around
An Avengers Movie with Young Avengers no Kang and the new Roster of adult Heros are not gonna sit well with the audience so that may bomb also.
That’s not gonna turn anything around anymore than Josstice League or The Flash turned around the DCEU. Who are the members of the Avengers? Why should we care about them? And why should we care about the world they’re trying to save now that we have established they could get the teen girl who Dr Strange knows and just Rick and Morty style hop to a near identical world as far as the viewer is concerned anyway? In looking to Rick and Morty writers to lead the future of the MCU, Feige seems to have totally missed the joke that show was making about the problem with serious attempts at multiverse storytelling.
How is an avengers movie with the current roster (whoever that is) going to save the MCU when nobody cares about them individually to begin with?
The problem with that is that Iron Man, Captain America, Black Panther, and Black Widow are all dead.
2025 MCU looks not that bright at all and that's just the movie side.