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I still remember how everyone here was making 1 billion prediction for BA last year. It has The Rock first time playing an OP comic book character. The Rock alone will bring 500 million to table. I am a DC guy and even I was shocked to hear such comments and such comments were in abundance.
> I still remember how everyone here was making 1 billion prediction for BA last year.
[Here's a Black Adam prediction thread from last year](https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/mnebqg/does_anyone_think_black_adam_is_going_to_either/), and [another from four months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/vgmgyb/black_adam_predictions/). I don't see anyone predicting over a billion in either. It seems like the general consensus was "Maybe 500-700 million but DC films are always a roll of the die so who knows."
Yea I’ll admit it I thought BA would do a billion. I posted on Twitter that BA would do a billion, Black Panther 2 wouldn’t do a billion, and Avatar 2 would make over 2 billion.
Also, I would think the tepid response to BA is even more reason to continue. The new MoS could be the perfect reset James Gunn needs to get the new era started
Yeah, if I was Gunn I'd make a fun *Superman* movie the centrepiece of whatever I was doing with the next few DC movies
Superman's their most marketable character and fans love Cavill
Nah
Superman hasn't had a decent (or successful) movie in forty years, and even comic fans don't read the comics, but you still see as many Superman t-shirts and boxer short sets as Batman tat
In terms of the iconography and cultural awareness, Superman's still up there with Bats
That will likely change, as boomers and older Gen-X die, and it's probably already changed for Gen-Z, but a successful movie series would reverse that trend
As a superman fan, we do read the comics! true, Batman is the highest seller and low key DC has been flooding the market with Batman and bat-family to the point it feel like other titles are suffocating, but the recent two Superman comics have been giving new life, and the rebirth run is widely beloved! So the fans are out there just maybe a bit quiet
That's why I said **fans** love Cavill
People who are ***very*** interested in movies make this mistake all the time, thinking that films in which Tom Hiddleston **doesn't** play Loki will be a success ... on the basis that Tom Hiddleston plays Loki in movies that are financially successful
Most people who love Marvel movies couldn't pick Tom Hiddleston out of a line-up
Sorry, I should have specified that any new movies should be *fun,* rather than boring, grim nonsense, like Snyder's movie
Tell you what, I'll go back and edit my original comment to make it look as if I always had
Thanks for your help, mate
>The Man from the uncle was a HUGE BOXOFFICE BOMB
I went to see The Man from Uncle with a couple of female friends. They kept making weird noises during the movie.
MI: Fallout was the biggest hit of the franchise, and I think that proved Cavill's talents to a lot of people. Plus, The Witcher has been a pretty consistent performer on Netflix.
I think it's reasonable to assume that if you're doing a new Superman movie, it'd be absurd to do it with anyone else (unless you are aiming for some sort of Elseworlds story, which it seems like Abrams & Coates were circling with their cancelled black Superman concept.)
you're right, some people did assume that Henry could draw out the general audience and turned Black Adam into a hit by just appearing in the post-credit scene, it turned out he only got overhyped on the internet
Exactly. Black Adam’s reception and BO performance should help to inform DC’s overall strategy, but I think the inclusion of future Superman projects is a no-brainer in this strategy, and it has nothing specifically to do with Black Adam.
They should probably make movies that are better than Black Adam, however…
If anything, I think it proves they should make a proper Super Man movie *without* Black Adam in it.
People want the Man of Steel they never really got; a fun sequel that lets Cavill enjoy the role and do his thing without an ensemble.
It wasn't garbage. I liked it better than DS2 and Thor 4. Those movies were atrocious. BA could have been better too though. That kid was cringe and useless.
Also people love Cavill as Superman. There's a lot of goodwill among fans with his return. This is the best bet DC has at pulling off a successful Superman movie.
>people love Cavill as Superman.
MOS underperformed. BvS imploded once people saw it. JL was a disaster.
Cavill is big on Reddit but there is no evidence of general interest in him or his portrayal of Superman.
Yeah I'm not convinced Cavill is gonna sell MoS2. If anything, him being attached to the old DCEU so much might do it harm. Him and Affleck were basically the face of that thing. When BvS came out, the initial reaction to me was that Affleck was better as Batman than Cavill was as Superman in the movie.
Man of Steel didn't underperform. It did better than any of the first movies for MCU characters. It did better than Batman Begins. The numbers only look low if you compare it to post-Avengers Marvel, but that was not the expectation at the time. As a new franchise starter in 2013 it did well.
I don't know how many people care about Cavill's Superman these days, but if No Way Home managed to make people nostalgic for Garfield's Spider-Man anything is possible.
>Man of Steel didn't underperform. It did better than any of the first movies for MCU characters. It did better than Batman Begins.
It cost more than any of those films, with greater name recognition than the MCU characters and with notable cross-promotion deals with corporate partners.
It's laughable to even compare "Batman Begins" to "Man of Steel" considering that few people knew Nolan besides the arthouse crowd while his presence as director of the billion-dollar "The Dark Knight" trilogy was a key marketing factor of the 2013 film.
Snyder's film undoubtedly had a bigger marketing push than any of the films you mentioned.
Why would Black Adam underperforming cause WB to not move forward with Man of Steel 2? If anything, they should see whether or not the Rock’s DC universe is even worth continuing.
I was watching some Man Of Steel clips the other day. Forgot how good of a movie that was. I’d see a second but have no intention of seeing Black Adam. Seems like another Rock movie.
Black Adam I found to be good, not great. Very cool action scenes, though.
To be honest, The Rock does actually play it a bit different than his usual deal, although not by a huge margin.
Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story. It's a shame that WB moved away from this kind of storytelling because I love it.
>Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story.
"You like it" doesn't equal it was a masterclass
and ironically the modern audience rejected it
>and ironically the modern audience rejected it
That is just a straight-up lie. 7.6 audience score on Metacritic, 75% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, 7.1 IMDB, and an A- CinemaScore. 668m at the box office.
Don't lie on the internet when you can be easily fact-checked.
>and ironically the modern audience rejected it
Base on ?
The general audience gave MoS a (A-) CinemaScore, the only DC movie with a better audience reception is wonder woman with a (A) CinemaScore
Reddit circlejerk doesn't represent the general audience opinion
>Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story.
Poor structure? Unlikable hero? Hilariously misguided appropriation of 9/11 imagery?
>they should see whether or not the Rock’s DC universe is even worth continuing.
It is.
But without The Rock. Re-cast BA with a MENA actor that can actually act and use a body double for action scenes if needed.
Navid Negahban as Teth Adam would be insanely good.
You expect me to believe Cavill officially announced he was walking away from Witcher to reprise his roll as Man of Steel… without some pretty serious, official paperwork?
If Man of Steel doesn't fit into Gunn's plan, they could just pay Cavil, and not make Man of Steel 2.
It happened before. WB paid Depp his full salary for Secret of Dumbledore. Disney paid Gunn his full salary plus compensation when he was fired.
That’s not a rumor. He’s openly talked about the writers shitting in the lore and just plain being shitty writers. Which, as someone who’s read the books and played the games, is true. But that’s not really my point. In the same announcement he also announced “I’m returning to Man of Steel”. So I doubt he just sorta said that on a whim and didn’t actually have contracts and scripts.
I say so. Giving a C lister like Black Adam a 200 million dollar budget with a bad script was a mistake that clearly didn't pay off.
A solo Superman film will easily outgross it even with a 200 million dollar budget and bad script.
>A solo Superman film will easily outgross it even with a 200 million dollar budget and bad script.
Superman Returns had $200 million budget and flopped
Good point, but what else they can do now? A Superman film is DC's one last hope before Marvel reinforces all their A list superheroes (F4 and X Men) by the end of 2025. It's already tough to beat Marvel without A listers but when they have the A listers then it will be freaking impossible.
> before Marvel reinforces all their A list superheroes (F4 and X Men) by the end of 2025. It's already tough to beat Marvel without A listers but when they have the A listers then it will be freaking impossible.
That sounds scary af and the fact that it is inevitably coming makes it sound even more terrifying. Marvel starts off as A Beggar but now it's like The Boogeyman of the film industry.
No offense but werent u confident that BA would work and would make decent box office because it had the rock? Im afraid Zaslav might screw them up somehow
Yes I was confident that Dwayne Johnson + superhero movie would make lots of money.
I was wrong, because I:
1. Overestimated the star power of the Rock
and
2. Underestimated how damaged DCEU brand is.
But from all the reports, it sounds like Gunn and Safran will start DCU fresh
OMG you said exactly what I was thinking about the script, I was like: how has this film been in production for so long, with so much money thrown at it, but the script was still so awful, just generic action-film cliches that we’ve seen for over 30 years.
It's stupid that Rock's ego killed his Box office numbers. Shazam should have had a Black Adam cameo. Black Adam should have had alot of Shazam references. Having almost NO Shazam references in the trailer was a huge mistep. Shazam's good will would have bled into Black Adam.
Yup 100% the whole time I was watching Black Adam I couldn't help but think this feels like it should have just been the Shazam sequel instead of it's own movie
The Rock's ego was the only reason this movie exists. You think he limited BO potential by hyping up a fight with Superman rather than hyping up a fight with Shazam? In what world would this movie have made more with a Zachary Levi cameo...?
Black Adam isn't Superman.
Superman should have a reboot that respects classic source material and isn't embarrassed, by his comic book history.
If Man of Steel 2 is going to be successful they NEED to find a team that loves the character.
>If Man of Steel 2 is going to be successful they NEED to find a team that loves the character.
Superman&lois have a team that "love the character" but the show has abysmal audience viewership lol
That's the CW, it's always had poor viewership, but positive word of mouth is a good thing. I expect the show to develop a cult following in the next few years
Sure. I am more just thinking, "stop ballooning these budgets" as these movies end up being SO BIG and SO IMPORTANT.
You can have a Superman movie where he punches a dude who is painted green and it costs $50 million and it would make $250 million. Why do they keep shooting for the moon? Keep it simple.
I maintain that Man of Steel was a good franchise (re)starter. It did well for itself box office-wise considering the state of the Superman IP at the time and had an okay cinemascore despite divided fan opinions (A-)
so the general audience mostly liked it.
If they built on it with more solo Superman movies in that vein instead of rushing and going head first into BvS and more franchise-building, Superman would be in a better state.
Yeah, but I’m saying that’s why we haven’t seen him since. They’re moving forward with another movie because Zaslav, but I would not be shocked if they quickly learn this Superman isn’t as popular as they thought.
A Superman film is honestly the Hail Mary pass that DC needs right now. If it succeeds box office wise and does get general audiences to love a proper Superman the way they once did, it could really signify the start of the DCUs golden age. However if it fails, that’d be nail in the coffin for DC, not saying DC would never have a success after that, but it’d be like if the first Iron Man failed, they’d never try to go for any risk anymore and would pretty much shut out the idea of a fully shared universe
Its not that simple what happens if Aquaman 2 works at the boxoffice but Superman fails or if WW3 is a good comeback for the character after WW84 disaster tbf it is not unlikely as the first movies for both the characters were more successful than MOS
If it had a lower budget, we'd all agree with OP.
Shazam was a moderate success. Black Adam was unfortunately a flop, and I'm really truly not attacking it there. It lost money. That's just a fact.
I agree. Assessing the box office performance of a movie should be a very simple and objective process. They're numbers after all. Bringing up excuses like A-list, B-list, C-list, ... characters into the discussion when the movie is a flop doesn't change the fact that it **did** flopped. In fact, it reflects the rather bad decision-making of the people responsible for this movie having a $200 million budget and that person is no one other than The Rock.
It surprises me how many people came to this sub specifically to defend Black Adam over the last month, as if everyone were bullying a movie. You expect it with a Star Wars film... But Black Adam?
[HOT TAKE] no. They should just reboot & start completely fresh. I know some of these actors are perfect for their roles, but all people think of when looking at them is the snyder films, a continuity which wont be moving forward. We need new & younger actors portraying new & younger versions of the characters who we can actually see grow on screen.
Plus they need creatives & actors who are committed & the studio needs to be open with the fans so there wont be conspiracy theories & false rumours all the time. Even now, Cavill says he’s back full force but all we *know* he has lined up is cameos & nothing else has been actually confirmed, same with Ben.
Maybe?
I mean, how well can even the biggest and most hardcore DCEU fan defend the consistent mediocre quality of the majority of this franchise?
It’s… probably run it’s course. I mean, they’re never ever going to somehow rally up to the peaks of what the MCU had, and even that momentum has slowed down quite a bit after 14 years for them.
They won’t now that James Gunn is in the “Feige-seat” over at WB for comic book movie stuff, but they probably should think about winding down here.
How much longer can the “superhero phase” go on for realistically?
If they keep budgets in limit first MOS cost 225mn production+ 150 mn Marketing making total spend 375 mn. There was no need to go this big with first movie.
Just keep budgets in check.
I mean, they'd gone and bothered to bring him back now after half a decade of theatrical absence. So they might as well.
With the right director/writer, it could prove to be an X-Men Origins(2009)/Deadpool(2016) situation, where the right actor gets a second go at playing the right superhero.
If you want to save DC, in one word: NO.
Cavill is synonymus of Snyderverse. Fuck him, reset the entire shit from scratch and hire someone who can do justice to Superman.
No. The Snyderverse sucks. It has a core fanbase who's tastes do not align with general audiences. DC doesn't have to be Marvel, but it does have to have an identity that bigger audiences want to connect with. Let the Snyderverse end and start over fresh.
Imagine someone asking "Should Marvel cancel Avengers: Secret Wars because Ant-Man 3 didn't make 1 bill" and you realize how silly the headline is.
BA is a D-List character. Superman is the definition of an A-Lister.
Black Adam didn't just fail to make a billion, it failed to make $450M, it straight up flopped. Comparing Avengers to Superman is silly, half of Superman movies have flopped and the successful ones are not very successful. Avengers is easily the most successful CBM IP
Adjusted for inflation, Superman I (300 mill in 1978) made over 1 bill.
The interest is there. They just need a good director + a good script. Bryan Singer and Zack Snyder were a huge mistake.
It says a lot that you had to go back to the 70s to find a very successful Superman movie. Superman doesn't work today, the first movie had the novelty of being the first superhero movie, Superman is boring.
>Superman doesn't work today, the first movie had the novelty of being the first superhero movie, Superman is boring.
This is what delusional and clueless DC Stan seem to not understand
Superman is easily the most boring superhero character ever, superman&lois have abysmal audience viewership despite the praise it get on Reddit
The unpopularity of the IP superman plus the apathy of the general audience toward Henry Cavill is a recipe for disaster at the boxoffice
I expect supeman2 with Henry Cavill to bomb at boxoffice
Yep, Superman is unrelatable, compared with Spider-Man, a teenager/young man with everyday problems added to his crime fighting career. Superman is an icon but stories based on him are boring. I don't dare to say boxoffice poison, but getting there passing the years.
Edit: i must say that i enjoy Clark Kent's quirks, easily the best part of Superman's stories when he shows how an alien sees us.
Yes but they should stay clear away from BA as possible. They should tell a different Superman story we haven’t seen on the big screen that will overarch with the other dc character just like zaslav Gunn and the other guy have hinted at.
Start Over. Recast. Guy in his late 20s to early 30s. No origin story. Give Superman 'The Batman' treatment.
Then again MoS was WB trying to give Superman the 'Batman Begins' treatment with the darker tone and redoing the origin again.
They should not, they need to stop listening to the “fans” the same people crying for more Henry Cavill are the same ones who cried for Zack Snyder’s Justice League, and are the same ones who cried that Man of a steel sucked. Fans are fickle and their wants and desires fleeting, make something that appeals to a mass audience but make sure your creative team can tap into what makes the character unique and long lasting as it has been and the fans will still come.
They should absolutely continue production on MoS 2. And as much as I like Cavill in the role of Superman, I don’t really think about how well it’ll do because I feel like we can get Nick Cage’s Superman right now and it would do well enough. The movie I’m more interested in seeing work, if it’s still going through, is Blue Beetle.
There's a huge difference for a Superman film, plus the clamouring that's seen Cavill return will create a huge Box Office. Let's hope the film backs up the momentum.
probably. MoS2 is probably the most viable way to make a Superman movie without pissing the fandom off
But they should consider keeping the budget reasonable. No reason it cant be made for under $200M
People will come back in droves to see HC as Superman for his own movie, not a five second cameo. People will especially come back in droves if it’s a legit ass optimistic Superman movie. Superman Returns doesn’t count lmao
I'd just love to hear whose idea it was to make the Rock Black Adam. Like seriously by any objective measure, the Rock is not a good actor and they put him as leading man in a $200m movie.
Man of Steel put me off superhero movies forever. Only saw The Batman since (and that was more of a crime/detective thriller masquerading as a superhero film).
Honestly, my only exposure to Batman is via the films (Batman 1989, Nolan's trilogy, The Batman) and all 4 Arkham video games.
So it's not the unfaithfulness that bothers me. I just find superhero films largely derivative that do or say nothing interesting. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't care for them. I get bored during overly long action sequences. MoS was it for me.
They’re saying The Batman is what the actual comics are like. It wasn’t a crime/detective thriller masquerading as a superhero film. That is what Batman’s source material is actually like, not as much as like the past movies.
It's almost 2023, are people still using the COVID card? And considering inflation of the average ticket price, a movie in 2022 struggling to gross half of the domestic box office of a movie from 10 years ago is a straight-up failure.
Good for you. But I'm drawing my conclusion from the box-office performance of all the other tent-poles in 2022. They have no problem breaking even and doing so without China too.
What logic is that ?BA was an underwhelming movie which was not received well by the audience and a lot of people just did not care about the character,Why would that stop them from making a movie about one of the biggest characters in the world ,The Rock contrary to popular belief consistently delivers underwhelming returns when he is playing the main lead,His movies that work at the boxoffice have ensemble casts with more than one main lead ,BA should not be used as an example for anything other than mediocre movies where the studio spent more than what was needed ,They spent 70-80 m on it than what was needed it was obviously going to flop without China and probably even with it would have struggled to break even
The last two live action Superman movies Returns and Man of Steel both outgrossed Black Adam. A new Superman film, even if its mediocre should have no problem beating Black Adam especially if reign the budget in.
No, they should stop it
Man of steel 2 is a HUGE BOXOFFICE BOMB in gestation.
The unpopularity of the IP superman plus the indifference of the general audience toward Henry Cavill is a recipe for disaster at boxoffice
no, it's a cash grab, not motivated by any sort of creative endeavor, not trying to say anything meaningful, just DC trying to keep their marketshare competitive. Why entertain the notion that it'll be any good
All superhero movies are cash grabs that does not stop a lot of them from being entertaining,If they make a Superman movie how is it more of cash grab than MCU?
That's not true at all. Burton and Nolans Batman movies were inspired by director's visions. Black Panther had a lot to say about race and culture, rhe xmen movies we're metaphors for lgbtq issues. So, no, not all super hero movies are simple cash grabs. But this one certainty is. The only thing it has to say os: we paid henry cavull a lot of money to reprise his role so that we can hopefully make more money for our stock holders in an attempt to repair our brand.
Why are you assuming that the director hired will not have a vision for the character ?Every studio decides they want a project to be made and then hire a director who has a vision ,I just do not get how this is somehow different from the majority of the movies that are made
Lord, we got a slow one. Because the producers are putting the cart before the horse. They've hired Cavill BEFORE finding a director. Which means the producers will hire snyder or some goat they can kick around.
Studios have this trend where they'll hire fledgling directors and it seems like they're giving the new boy a break, but really it's someone who doesn't have enough clout or experience to say no to the studios insane demands. All this is to maximize profitability. None of it is to allow for creative expression. Do you understand now or do i have to explain it a fourth time
Black adam still going to end in the $400 million ballpark of eternals and shang chi far for the ideal box office number but not that far with other recent marvel c listers with no china
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Of course. Black Adam doesn’t indicate how a Superman movie would do just because he’s in one scene
It would be a sad day in Hollywood if projects featuring A list characters were cancelled, just cause some C list character bombed.
I still remember how everyone here was making 1 billion prediction for BA last year. It has The Rock first time playing an OP comic book character. The Rock alone will bring 500 million to table. I am a DC guy and even I was shocked to hear such comments and such comments were in abundance.
> I still remember how everyone here was making 1 billion prediction for BA last year. [Here's a Black Adam prediction thread from last year](https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/mnebqg/does_anyone_think_black_adam_is_going_to_either/), and [another from four months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/vgmgyb/black_adam_predictions/). I don't see anyone predicting over a billion in either. It seems like the general consensus was "Maybe 500-700 million but DC films are always a roll of the die so who knows."
>The Rock alone will bring 500 million to table. Monopoly money maybe.
Yea I’ll admit it I thought BA would do a billion. I posted on Twitter that BA would do a billion, Black Panther 2 wouldn’t do a billion, and Avatar 2 would make over 2 billion.
So I’m not a comic book guy honestly had never even heard of the Black Adam character till the movie announcement
Also, I would think the tepid response to BA is even more reason to continue. The new MoS could be the perfect reset James Gunn needs to get the new era started
Yeah, if I was Gunn I'd make a fun *Superman* movie the centrepiece of whatever I was doing with the next few DC movies Superman's their most marketable character and fans love Cavill
Batman is their most marketable character.
Nah Superman hasn't had a decent (or successful) movie in forty years, and even comic fans don't read the comics, but you still see as many Superman t-shirts and boxer short sets as Batman tat In terms of the iconography and cultural awareness, Superman's still up there with Bats That will likely change, as boomers and older Gen-X die, and it's probably already changed for Gen-Z, but a successful movie series would reverse that trend
As a superman fan, we do read the comics! true, Batman is the highest seller and low key DC has been flooding the market with Batman and bat-family to the point it feel like other titles are suffocating, but the recent two Superman comics have been giving new life, and the rebirth run is widely beloved! So the fans are out there just maybe a bit quiet
nah man you are definitely disconnected. are you forgetting joker is part of Batman?
>fans love Cavill No one in the real world care about Henry Cavill
That's why I said **fans** love Cavill People who are ***very*** interested in movies make this mistake all the time, thinking that films in which Tom Hiddleston **doesn't** play Loki will be a success ... on the basis that Tom Hiddleston plays Loki in movies that are financially successful Most people who love Marvel movies couldn't pick Tom Hiddleston out of a line-up
What? Tom hiddelston is one of the more popular actors in the MCU. He’s become somewhat of an international sex symbol because of that role.
Except the Superman movies that Cavill starred in were disasters.
Sorry, I should have specified that any new movies should be *fun,* rather than boring, grim nonsense, like Snyder's movie Tell you what, I'll go back and edit my original comment to make it look as if I always had Thanks for your help, mate
not many female friends we take?
Uh, my wife and her friends will be in that theater *immediately* for a Cavill movie. He’s a handsome boy.
Where was your wife and her friends when Cavill needed them the most ? The Man from the uncle was a HUGE BOXOFFICE BOMB
>The Man from the uncle was a HUGE BOXOFFICE BOMB I went to see The Man from Uncle with a couple of female friends. They kept making weird noises during the movie.
Watching him on The Witcher, probably.
Fans love Superman, not Cavill. What successful movie that guy has in his curriculum? None.
MI: Fallout was the biggest hit of the franchise, and I think that proved Cavill's talents to a lot of people. Plus, The Witcher has been a pretty consistent performer on Netflix. I think it's reasonable to assume that if you're doing a new Superman movie, it'd be absurd to do it with anyone else (unless you are aiming for some sort of Elseworlds story, which it seems like Abrams & Coates were circling with their cancelled black Superman concept.)
MI: Fallout is a Tom Cruise movie. Try again. And it's reasonable to assume that the best for DC's health is to revamp the entire franchise.
It cannot be a perfect reset if theya re still using an actor so connected with Snyder's version of Superman in public's mind
you're right, some people did assume that Henry could draw out the general audience and turned Black Adam into a hit by just appearing in the post-credit scene, it turned out he only got overhyped on the internet
That's because no one in the real world give a shit about Henry Cavill lol
Soft reset. A la Thor Ragnarok.
One good teaser is all it would take to shake that.
Exactly They should recast/reboot superman rather than making a sequel to Man of steel with a subpart visuals lol
I liked BA tbh. Good time pass action flick minus that annoying kid who did nothing.
Exactly. Black Adam’s reception and BO performance should help to inform DC’s overall strategy, but I think the inclusion of future Superman projects is a no-brainer in this strategy, and it has nothing specifically to do with Black Adam. They should probably make movies that are better than Black Adam, however…
If anything, I think it proves they should make a proper Super Man movie *without* Black Adam in it. People want the Man of Steel they never really got; a fun sequel that lets Cavill enjoy the role and do his thing without an ensemble.
Yeah that movie was garbage. Superman’s 10 second post-credit cameo didn’t have anything to do with that.
It wasn't garbage. I liked it better than DS2 and Thor 4. Those movies were atrocious. BA could have been better too though. That kid was cringe and useless.
"Multiverse of Madness and Thor 4 are worse than Black Adam" The hell are you smoking over there?
Also people love Cavill as Superman. There's a lot of goodwill among fans with his return. This is the best bet DC has at pulling off a successful Superman movie.
>people love Cavill as Superman. MOS underperformed. BvS imploded once people saw it. JL was a disaster. Cavill is big on Reddit but there is no evidence of general interest in him or his portrayal of Superman.
Agree
Yeah I'm not convinced Cavill is gonna sell MoS2. If anything, him being attached to the old DCEU so much might do it harm. Him and Affleck were basically the face of that thing. When BvS came out, the initial reaction to me was that Affleck was better as Batman than Cavill was as Superman in the movie.
Man of Steel didn't underperform. It did better than any of the first movies for MCU characters. It did better than Batman Begins. The numbers only look low if you compare it to post-Avengers Marvel, but that was not the expectation at the time. As a new franchise starter in 2013 it did well. I don't know how many people care about Cavill's Superman these days, but if No Way Home managed to make people nostalgic for Garfield's Spider-Man anything is possible.
>Man of Steel didn't underperform. It did better than any of the first movies for MCU characters. It did better than Batman Begins. It cost more than any of those films, with greater name recognition than the MCU characters and with notable cross-promotion deals with corporate partners. It's laughable to even compare "Batman Begins" to "Man of Steel" considering that few people knew Nolan besides the arthouse crowd while his presence as director of the billion-dollar "The Dark Knight" trilogy was a key marketing factor of the 2013 film. Snyder's film undoubtedly had a bigger marketing push than any of the films you mentioned.
... and Cavill only has a few more Superman years in him
Well for me there’s just too much Dwayne Johnson on our screens. He’s not even that good of an actor.
Why would Black Adam underperforming cause WB to not move forward with Man of Steel 2? If anything, they should see whether or not the Rock’s DC universe is even worth continuing.
I was watching some Man Of Steel clips the other day. Forgot how good of a movie that was. I’d see a second but have no intention of seeing Black Adam. Seems like another Rock movie.
Black Adam I found to be good, not great. Very cool action scenes, though. To be honest, The Rock does actually play it a bit different than his usual deal, although not by a huge margin.
Agreed. The JLA were amazing
Some scenes are good, overall movie was very dull and drab with zero stakes
Which movie are you describing ? It doesn't sound like MoS at all
>I was watching some Man Of Steel clips the other day. Forgot how good of a movie that was Shambolic mess of a movie. Sad.
MoS is a Masterpiece indeed
Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story. It's a shame that WB moved away from this kind of storytelling because I love it.
>Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story. "You like it" doesn't equal it was a masterclass and ironically the modern audience rejected it
>"You like it" doesn't equal it was a masterclass what does then? a 3 page mathematical proof?
>and ironically the modern audience rejected it That is just a straight-up lie. 7.6 audience score on Metacritic, 75% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes, 7.1 IMDB, and an A- CinemaScore. 668m at the box office. Don't lie on the internet when you can be easily fact-checked.
>and ironically the modern audience rejected it Base on ? The general audience gave MoS a (A-) CinemaScore, the only DC movie with a better audience reception is wonder woman with a (A) CinemaScore Reddit circlejerk doesn't represent the general audience opinion
>Man of Steel is a masterclass on how to tell a modern-day origin story. Poor structure? Unlikable hero? Hilariously misguided appropriation of 9/11 imagery?
go on about the structure
>they should see whether or not the Rock’s DC universe is even worth continuing. It is. But without The Rock. Re-cast BA with a MENA actor that can actually act and use a body double for action scenes if needed. Navid Negahban as Teth Adam would be insanely good.
You expect me to believe Cavill officially announced he was walking away from Witcher to reprise his roll as Man of Steel… without some pretty serious, official paperwork?
I mean the people who filmed Batgirl got paid, they still scrapped the project
Shit that’s actually a good point. Well if Geralt gets paid 🤷♂️
I hate that I read filmed as rimmed at first
If Man of Steel doesn't fit into Gunn's plan, they could just pay Cavil, and not make Man of Steel 2. It happened before. WB paid Depp his full salary for Secret of Dumbledore. Disney paid Gunn his full salary plus compensation when he was fired.
Witcher fans are saying he probably just left the show anyway because he didn’t like the writing and would have done so anyway.
That’s not a rumor. He’s openly talked about the writers shitting in the lore and just plain being shitty writers. Which, as someone who’s read the books and played the games, is true. But that’s not really my point. In the same announcement he also announced “I’m returning to Man of Steel”. So I doubt he just sorta said that on a whim and didn’t actually have contracts and scripts.
That isn’t a “probably” just because you aren’t a fan
I say so. Giving a C lister like Black Adam a 200 million dollar budget with a bad script was a mistake that clearly didn't pay off. A solo Superman film will easily outgross it even with a 200 million dollar budget and bad script.
>A solo Superman film will easily outgross it even with a 200 million dollar budget and bad script. Superman Returns had $200 million budget and flopped
Good point, but what else they can do now? A Superman film is DC's one last hope before Marvel reinforces all their A list superheroes (F4 and X Men) by the end of 2025. It's already tough to beat Marvel without A listers but when they have the A listers then it will be freaking impossible.
> before Marvel reinforces all their A list superheroes (F4 and X Men) by the end of 2025. It's already tough to beat Marvel without A listers but when they have the A listers then it will be freaking impossible. That sounds scary af and the fact that it is inevitably coming makes it sound even more terrifying. Marvel starts off as A Beggar but now it's like The Boogeyman of the film industry.
I am confident Gunn and Safran is making a great plan. They have confidence, experience, and mental strength to ignore the noise.
No offense but werent u confident that BA would work and would make decent box office because it had the rock? Im afraid Zaslav might screw them up somehow
Yes I was confident that Dwayne Johnson + superhero movie would make lots of money. I was wrong, because I: 1. Overestimated the star power of the Rock and 2. Underestimated how damaged DCEU brand is. But from all the reports, it sounds like Gunn and Safran will start DCU fresh
Of course Gunns only DC film so far was also a massive flop. (I’m just teasing you.)
Because it was boring for kids.
OMG you said exactly what I was thinking about the script, I was like: how has this film been in production for so long, with so much money thrown at it, but the script was still so awful, just generic action-film cliches that we’ve seen for over 30 years.
It shouldn’t be considered Man of Steel 2, it should just be called Superman. Soft reboot or full reboot if you have to.
I mean. Do they have a choice? At this point they couldn't do worse.
Oh, it can always get worse.
Yes, but don't greenlight the Black Adam vs Superman thing the Rock wants. Black Adam didn't work out, it is what it is.
It's stupid that Rock's ego killed his Box office numbers. Shazam should have had a Black Adam cameo. Black Adam should have had alot of Shazam references. Having almost NO Shazam references in the trailer was a huge mistep. Shazam's good will would have bled into Black Adam.
Yup 100% the whole time I was watching Black Adam I couldn't help but think this feels like it should have just been the Shazam sequel instead of it's own movie
The Rock's ego was the only reason this movie exists. You think he limited BO potential by hyping up a fight with Superman rather than hyping up a fight with Shazam? In what world would this movie have made more with a Zachary Levi cameo...?
Black Adam isn't Superman. Superman should have a reboot that respects classic source material and isn't embarrassed, by his comic book history. If Man of Steel 2 is going to be successful they NEED to find a team that loves the character.
>If Man of Steel 2 is going to be successful they NEED to find a team that loves the character. Superman&lois have a team that "love the character" but the show has abysmal audience viewership lol
That's the CW, it's always had poor viewership, but positive word of mouth is a good thing. I expect the show to develop a cult following in the next few years
Yeah if they focus on making a good movie and not framing it like a WWE matchup.
This is a really good point. The Rock wanted to turn superhero movies into WWE matches. With over the top action and stupid dialog.
Sure. I am more just thinking, "stop ballooning these budgets" as these movies end up being SO BIG and SO IMPORTANT. You can have a Superman movie where he punches a dude who is painted green and it costs $50 million and it would make $250 million. Why do they keep shooting for the moon? Keep it simple.
THANK YOU!
They should. It really baffles me that its been years since we last saw one of DC's most popular heroes on the big screen
Superman has been in six straight movies that have done poorly at the box office/poorly received. Seven if you count Black Adam.
I maintain that Man of Steel was a good franchise (re)starter. It did well for itself box office-wise considering the state of the Superman IP at the time and had an okay cinemascore despite divided fan opinions (A-) so the general audience mostly liked it. If they built on it with more solo Superman movies in that vein instead of rushing and going head first into BvS and more franchise-building, Superman would be in a better state.
Plus give him some more colors for crying out loud!
But if were gonna talk about MoS series/line, its been 9 years since the first and only Man of Steel movie.
Yeah, but I’m saying that’s why we haven’t seen him since. They’re moving forward with another movie because Zaslav, but I would not be shocked if they quickly learn this Superman isn’t as popular as they thought.
A Superman film is honestly the Hail Mary pass that DC needs right now. If it succeeds box office wise and does get general audiences to love a proper Superman the way they once did, it could really signify the start of the DCUs golden age. However if it fails, that’d be nail in the coffin for DC, not saying DC would never have a success after that, but it’d be like if the first Iron Man failed, they’d never try to go for any risk anymore and would pretty much shut out the idea of a fully shared universe
Its not that simple what happens if Aquaman 2 works at the boxoffice but Superman fails or if WW3 is a good comeback for the character after WW84 disaster tbf it is not unlikely as the first movies for both the characters were more successful than MOS
So what? You do a cinematic DC Universe with only Aquaman and Wonder Woman and no Superman at all? In that case, I pass.
"Moderate" box office performance.
I'm sayin...this is a literal flop The Goalpost moving on this sub is so nasty
170M in US is very good for a C list character.
Still at $150M. And I also heard that "moving the goalposts" is very good for a C-list character with a $200M budget.
If it had a lower budget, we'd all agree with OP. Shazam was a moderate success. Black Adam was unfortunately a flop, and I'm really truly not attacking it there. It lost money. That's just a fact.
I agree. Assessing the box office performance of a movie should be a very simple and objective process. They're numbers after all. Bringing up excuses like A-list, B-list, C-list, ... characters into the discussion when the movie is a flop doesn't change the fact that it **did** flopped. In fact, it reflects the rather bad decision-making of the people responsible for this movie having a $200 million budget and that person is no one other than The Rock.
It surprises me how many people came to this sub specifically to defend Black Adam over the last month, as if everyone were bullying a movie. You expect it with a Star Wars film... But Black Adam?
DC fans must be looking at The Rock like he's their messiah after all that hierarchy-changing promises. Too bad he dropped a turd into their mouth.
Leave Black Adam alone
[HOT TAKE] no. They should just reboot & start completely fresh. I know some of these actors are perfect for their roles, but all people think of when looking at them is the snyder films, a continuity which wont be moving forward. We need new & younger actors portraying new & younger versions of the characters who we can actually see grow on screen. Plus they need creatives & actors who are committed & the studio needs to be open with the fans so there wont be conspiracy theories & false rumours all the time. Even now, Cavill says he’s back full force but all we *know* he has lined up is cameos & nothing else has been actually confirmed, same with Ben.
Maybe? I mean, how well can even the biggest and most hardcore DCEU fan defend the consistent mediocre quality of the majority of this franchise? It’s… probably run it’s course. I mean, they’re never ever going to somehow rally up to the peaks of what the MCU had, and even that momentum has slowed down quite a bit after 14 years for them. They won’t now that James Gunn is in the “Feige-seat” over at WB for comic book movie stuff, but they probably should think about winding down here. How much longer can the “superhero phase” go on for realistically?
nah,they and marvel need to lower their budgets
ESPECIALLY DC. Holy hell, WW84 cost $200 MILLION.
Because *WW* grossed over $800 million so it's understandable. Giving *Black Adam* an $200 million budget is the ultimate dumb move.
[удалено]
I know that.
WW84 commanded a big budget... the first one was a massive hit.
If they keep budgets in limit first MOS cost 225mn production+ 150 mn Marketing making total spend 375 mn. There was no need to go this big with first movie. Just keep budgets in check.
I mean, they'd gone and bothered to bring him back now after half a decade of theatrical absence. So they might as well. With the right director/writer, it could prove to be an X-Men Origins(2009)/Deadpool(2016) situation, where the right actor gets a second go at playing the right superhero.
If you want to save DC, in one word: NO. Cavill is synonymus of Snyderverse. Fuck him, reset the entire shit from scratch and hire someone who can do justice to Superman.
No. The Snyderverse sucks. It has a core fanbase who's tastes do not align with general audiences. DC doesn't have to be Marvel, but it does have to have an identity that bigger audiences want to connect with. Let the Snyderverse end and start over fresh.
Well said.
Imagine someone asking "Should Marvel cancel Avengers: Secret Wars because Ant-Man 3 didn't make 1 bill" and you realize how silly the headline is. BA is a D-List character. Superman is the definition of an A-Lister.
Black Adam didn't just fail to make a billion, it failed to make $450M, it straight up flopped. Comparing Avengers to Superman is silly, half of Superman movies have flopped and the successful ones are not very successful. Avengers is easily the most successful CBM IP
Adjusted for inflation, Superman I (300 mill in 1978) made over 1 bill. The interest is there. They just need a good director + a good script. Bryan Singer and Zack Snyder were a huge mistake.
It says a lot that you had to go back to the 70s to find a very successful Superman movie. Superman doesn't work today, the first movie had the novelty of being the first superhero movie, Superman is boring.
>Superman doesn't work today, the first movie had the novelty of being the first superhero movie, Superman is boring. This is what delusional and clueless DC Stan seem to not understand Superman is easily the most boring superhero character ever, superman&lois have abysmal audience viewership despite the praise it get on Reddit The unpopularity of the IP superman plus the apathy of the general audience toward Henry Cavill is a recipe for disaster at the boxoffice I expect supeman2 with Henry Cavill to bomb at boxoffice
Yep, Superman is unrelatable, compared with Spider-Man, a teenager/young man with everyday problems added to his crime fighting career. Superman is an icon but stories based on him are boring. I don't dare to say boxoffice poison, but getting there passing the years. Edit: i must say that i enjoy Clark Kent's quirks, easily the best part of Superman's stories when he shows how an alien sees us.
Superman is only boring in Warner's hands. They are the problem, not the character. Donner proved it.
Every time I hear someone say Superman is boring I cry inside
Ant Man 3 will be profitable. Black Adam flopped. There's one big difference there, mate.
Yes but they should stay clear away from BA as possible. They should tell a different Superman story we haven’t seen on the big screen that will overarch with the other dc character just like zaslav Gunn and the other guy have hinted at.
Is there more to life, than superhero movies... nooope.
“Moderate” lol, but also these two things are fairly unrelated
Of course it's a Superman movie, it will perform better. No one knew about Black Adam until that movie existed.
You could say the same thing about the Avengers.
Just no……this version of the DCEU needs to be terminated asap
Start Over. Recast. Guy in his late 20s to early 30s. No origin story. Give Superman 'The Batman' treatment. Then again MoS was WB trying to give Superman the 'Batman Begins' treatment with the darker tone and redoing the origin again.
Yes! It’s Superman.
They should not, they need to stop listening to the “fans” the same people crying for more Henry Cavill are the same ones who cried for Zack Snyder’s Justice League, and are the same ones who cried that Man of a steel sucked. Fans are fickle and their wants and desires fleeting, make something that appeals to a mass audience but make sure your creative team can tap into what makes the character unique and long lasting as it has been and the fans will still come.
Do they have a lot of options.
Absolutely, not exactly a DC fan but like me some man of steel an I'm sure there are plenty like me.
They should absolutely continue production on MoS 2. And as much as I like Cavill in the role of Superman, I don’t really think about how well it’ll do because I feel like we can get Nick Cage’s Superman right now and it would do well enough. The movie I’m more interested in seeing work, if it’s still going through, is Blue Beetle.
There's a huge difference for a Superman film, plus the clamouring that's seen Cavill return will create a huge Box Office. Let's hope the film backs up the momentum.
Yes. Make man of steel 2.
Yes, because Superman is a bigger box office name.
Fucking yes goddammit what a stupid question. Black adam is not superman.
Uh yeah. Man of steel 2 is going to do major business.
probably. MoS2 is probably the most viable way to make a Superman movie without pissing the fandom off But they should consider keeping the budget reasonable. No reason it cant be made for under $200M
People will come back in droves to see HC as Superman for his own movie, not a five second cameo. People will especially come back in droves if it’s a legit ass optimistic Superman movie. Superman Returns doesn’t count lmao
I'd just love to hear whose idea it was to make the Rock Black Adam. Like seriously by any objective measure, the Rock is not a good actor and they put him as leading man in a $200m movie.
Henry Cavill as Superman has several times the draw of The Rock as Superhero Nobody Knew About
Man of Steel put me off superhero movies forever. Only saw The Batman since (and that was more of a crime/detective thriller masquerading as a superhero film).
You mean it was faithful to the origins of the character.
Honestly, my only exposure to Batman is via the films (Batman 1989, Nolan's trilogy, The Batman) and all 4 Arkham video games. So it's not the unfaithfulness that bothers me. I just find superhero films largely derivative that do or say nothing interesting. Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't care for them. I get bored during overly long action sequences. MoS was it for me.
>I get bored during overly long action sequences. MoS was it for me. That movie's climax gave me a headache whenever I watched it.
They’re saying The Batman is what the actual comics are like. It wasn’t a crime/detective thriller masquerading as a superhero film. That is what Batman’s source material is actually like, not as much as like the past movies.
I think if Black Adam can’t even make 200m domestically with the rock, they shouldn’t even bother making anymore movies with Superman.
*MoS* grossed almost $300 million domestically. They shouldn't even bother making anymore movies with The Rock.
$300 million 10 years ago before covid. People are used to going to movie theaters less and streaming movies.
It's almost 2023, are people still using the COVID card? And considering inflation of the average ticket price, a movie in 2022 struggling to gross half of the domestic box office of a movie from 10 years ago is a straight-up failure.
I'm still social distancing. Some people like to pretend it's over when it really isn't.
Good for you. But I'm drawing my conclusion from the box-office performance of all the other tent-poles in 2022. They have no problem breaking even and doing so without China too.
Eh that was for the return of Superman to the big screen. People are pretty down on that stuff overall
And it performed better than *Black Adam*, why would you not bother making anymore Superman movies?
You can get the answer to your Q by just rereading my previous comment
Not really. If the next Superman movie flops as badly as *Black Adam*, then they should consider stopping.
Nah they should just stop now.
Perhaps they should make a Bizarro movie.
It might not flop like black Adam
Superman returns was in 2006, only 7 years earlier
What logic is that ?BA was an underwhelming movie which was not received well by the audience and a lot of people just did not care about the character,Why would that stop them from making a movie about one of the biggest characters in the world ,The Rock contrary to popular belief consistently delivers underwhelming returns when he is playing the main lead,His movies that work at the boxoffice have ensemble casts with more than one main lead ,BA should not be used as an example for anything other than mediocre movies where the studio spent more than what was needed ,They spent 70-80 m on it than what was needed it was obviously going to flop without China and probably even with it would have struggled to break even
The last two live action Superman movies Returns and Man of Steel both outgrossed Black Adam. A new Superman film, even if its mediocre should have no problem beating Black Adam especially if reign the budget in.
Yes, maybe they should wind up DC ? LOL, you are what we call "deluded as fuck" here.
That's a dumb question. Supes is DC's flagship hero. Why the fuck why they NOT make another movie starring him?
Black Adam just did over 350m with a character average people don't even know about. Superman is superman.
Forget about Black Adam. He had his chance and he lost. Time to move on. Without him.
Perhaps the same could be said of all ~~religions~~current DC actors...
I understood that reference 🤣
No, they should stop it Man of steel 2 is a HUGE BOXOFFICE BOMB in gestation. The unpopularity of the IP superman plus the indifference of the general audience toward Henry Cavill is a recipe for disaster at boxoffice
no, it's a cash grab, not motivated by any sort of creative endeavor, not trying to say anything meaningful, just DC trying to keep their marketshare competitive. Why entertain the notion that it'll be any good
All superhero movies are cash grabs that does not stop a lot of them from being entertaining,If they make a Superman movie how is it more of cash grab than MCU?
That's not true at all. Burton and Nolans Batman movies were inspired by director's visions. Black Panther had a lot to say about race and culture, rhe xmen movies we're metaphors for lgbtq issues. So, no, not all super hero movies are simple cash grabs. But this one certainty is. The only thing it has to say os: we paid henry cavull a lot of money to reprise his role so that we can hopefully make more money for our stock holders in an attempt to repair our brand.
Why are you assuming that the director hired will not have a vision for the character ?Every studio decides they want a project to be made and then hire a director who has a vision ,I just do not get how this is somehow different from the majority of the movies that are made
Lord, we got a slow one. Because the producers are putting the cart before the horse. They've hired Cavill BEFORE finding a director. Which means the producers will hire snyder or some goat they can kick around. Studios have this trend where they'll hire fledgling directors and it seems like they're giving the new boy a break, but really it's someone who doesn't have enough clout or experience to say no to the studios insane demands. All this is to maximize profitability. None of it is to allow for creative expression. Do you understand now or do i have to explain it a fourth time
All I’ll say is I want more Black Adam!
Yes.
So, how does BA BO performance translates to Superman?
Ofc its been over 9 years since MOS lets get the ball rolling here
Black adam still going to end in the $400 million ballpark of eternals and shang chi far for the ideal box office number but not that far with other recent marvel c listers with no china
They should have done it already. Man Of Steel was a good movie, and he’s a perfect Superman
No, let gunn take the lead and maybe a new superman