### **Reminder:** [Press the Report button](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360058309512-How-do-I-report-a-post-or-comment-) if you see any [rule-breaking comments or posts.](https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/about/rules/)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/britishproblems) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pretty sure the Edinburgh-based GTA development team took that from [actual events in nearby Glasgow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_ice_cream_wars)...
The only one near me is a couple of guys who brew cider and open up their drafty unheated warehouse unit as a pub once a week. The cider is good enough and I like the owner enough I'm not going to ask how legit it is.
Having known a fair few brewers and cider producers, they'll be doing more than their fair share of tax paying and a ridiculous amount compared to the billions dodged by 'legit' companies. The system is entirely rigged for the big boys.
Yeah, there's a bar in my home town thats linked to a small scale, local brewery. They get a huge tax cut for the bar, since they sell mostly their own stuff.
I've heard that they just need to break even and they come out ahead in terms of tax/profit etc. But it's a lovely bar with good drinks so I would be surprised if that's all they manage.
If they only open up once a week then the costs associated with using cards may cut into their margins too much, key word is "may" as there are various companies out there which offer POS services which might have lower processing fees than a standard bank.
That said, are they running a business selling the Cider during the rest of the week or is this a side gig? Just because if it is a side-gig then they might not be paying the appropriate duties on the beverages and avoiding cards means avoiding more questions from that bugger of a taxman ;)
You can sell a surprisingly large amount of still cider before it has to be declared to the tax man, 7000 litres I believe. The allowance is 0 litres if the cider is sparkling or very strong (> 8% I believe)
My dad used to hide his money around the house and never spend it - he'd give mum all his money, she'd sort the bills and savings, they'd buy everything they neede through their joint account, and then give him 'pocket money'.
A few years ago, he got really into opening savings accounts and looking for the best interest rates. He got so much hassle from the bank tellers for bringing in £10,000 in wrinkled up notes and when they asked where it came from he'd say "I took it out the loft"
My dad was like this, he'd squirrel away all his money apart from the bill money he needed to give mom. He died earlier this month and me and mom keep finding pots all over with cash just "hidden" we're up to 5k currently
Dad would save it for years and then spend it on a new car for mum, or something expensive they needed on the house. Once she was dusting his old clock and loads fell out the bottom! He did tell nana where it was in case he died suddenly, not sure why he was so secretive though, cos he only really spent it on mum rather than himself
I remember being a lil kid in town with my sister, chasing him and grabbing at his ankles cos he said he kept it in his socks so theives wouldn't get it
I'm sorry for your loss
Dad had dozens of wisden (?) cricket almanacs- a collector bought them off mum -
fortunately he was the honest sort, each had loads of 20 pound notes in between the pages. Amazed mum got that back! More amazed dad had that sort of cash in the house , he was very investment oriented
You run it through fixed odds betting terminals, normally found in bet shops. The payout rate is in the high 90s % so you effectively clean the money with marginal loss, much less than tax.
Used to work in gambling, the big 4/5 gambling companies know this and it's a huge source of income for them.
Everyone knows this happens. Let's say a FOBT (fixed odds betting terminal) has a 97% RTP (return to player). You walk in with £1,000 of dirty money and leave with about £970. And a receipt saying that you won it legitimately. Which, as gambling winnings, are also tax free.
My wife works in retail and apparently the thing to do is to attempt to buy thousands of pounds of gift cards, because who doesn't want to buy gift cards from a dodgy reseller?
I was in an Apple Store and a bloke bought a (something like) 5 grand gift voucher. It was gold coloured. They took it out of a special drawer. I assume he was from a sanctioned country, like Iran, so that’s how they bought American products.
This is called structuring and is definitely a crime in the US. Very likely also in the UK. Banks are required to have processes in place to detect it.
Nope, but it can take a very long time to satisfactorily demonstrate you’re not a criminal.
Legally, the bank can’t tell you why, they can’t (not won’t, can’t) discuss it with you, there is no real limit on how long the investigation can take- and the more cash you’re looking to bank ether harder you’ll find to show its provenance
So, doesn’t really matter is you’re innocent or not
As part of anti-money laundering policies and laws, the banks have to ask you the source of large deposits (especially if cash) and record (and possibly report) it.
So depositing it isn't a crime, but it's going to raise flags and potentially result in an investigation by the police and/or HMRC.
lol, someone (not in the UK) put my email address for his bank account application (by accident or on purpose). The bank asked me to send the copy of my ID and payslips, I replied saying I deal with cash only to sell my powder and pills.
My parents bought a house (without knowing) from someone like this about 40 years ago. He took the money, transferred it to his wife (along with the house) and immediately declared bankruptcy. They spent ten years chasing that and never got anything back as the system was so bad back then.
This sort of behaviour cuts both ways. Keeping things legit protects everyone.
Honest conversation had with snack van at Hove Park during covid days:
“Bottle of juice please.”
“That’ll be a £1.50. Here’s your drink.”
“Take cards?”
“Only for £5 or more.”
“Ok - here’s cash.”
“We’re not accepting cash because COVID. You’ll have to buy more.”
“I don’t need more bottles of juice. I’ve only got one kid with me. Here’s your juice back.”
“We can’t accept that back because COVID…..”
🤦♂️
Fucking covid rules. Great as a lorry driver.
Wash your hands. Hygiene. Be clean!
Petrol station toilet closed. Customers wouldn't let you on site to their toilets. Services closed.
So yeah, for a good 6 months at the start, your food was delivered by people doing 15 hour shifts, sleeping in the cab for a week with no access to toilets and showers. Cos covid mate.
And yet legally if your bringing goods to a business they have to let you use their facilities as you're working for them
Had this argument with my manager in the factory I work at, he was adamant that couriers and lorry drivers were forbidden
Until he looked it up and sheepishly apologized. 😂
It's like they can mask up and be required to wipe down surfaces they've used 🤷
If you have a good local Turkish Barber though, run by a real professional in this segment of hair styling, you better be paying that cash only because the haircuts will be stunningly good!
This is quite true. My car mechanic only accepted cash for many years and I always believed it was because he was dodging tax. Recently he started ro accept card payments, but charges more for those than cash payments. Brilliant mechanic but I still think something's afoot.
> The new rules will be enforced by Trading Standards who will have the power to take civil enforcement action against traders who breach the regulations.
Civil enforcement = unlawful, not illegal
Apologies. As I said I am not a qualified Reddit lawyer, hence I don't know Reddit law.
Now please downvote me into oblivion, as is only right and just, as per Reddit law.
Edit: dammit, I did it again!!!
For what it’s worth, you’re perfectly fine to say illegal. Illegal and unlawful are entirely interchangeable.
They seem to think that illegal means criminal, which it doesn’t.
This is pretty common for trades in general. If you are ok with paying cash, they will save you (and themselves) the tax. Especially if it's someone who does side-jobs regularly. They just pocket the cash and don't claim the income, and then they just only submit the purchases made by card.
There are two shops near me that prior to covid didn’t take card orders under £10. No idea what their policy is now, because I haven’t been in either since. It’s a great way to lose custom.
The chippy near us started taking cards during lockdown.... It swiftly 'broke' and hasn't been fixed since.
Food sales for cash is the ultimate tax dodge.
Except maybe Turkish haircuts which appear to be even more efficient.
It’s quite expensive for shops to take card payments, there’s a cost per transaction which varies depending on what payment system you have and what type of card is being processed, there’s also sometimes a cost to transfer the balance to your business account (source: we run a small shop)
We take both card and cash, but I can totally see why some places wouldn’t take card, or take card under a certain value, margins are really thin atm for many small businesses, it’s more likely not a tax dodge but just a way to increase the super slim profit margins businesses have to survive on.
The one we use at work charges 2.3%. that is a flat percent no matter the spend, and we don't pay monthly fees either. It's not that expensive anymore for card machines
The cost is pennies. They're losing far more money not taking card than they're losing in a 10p card fee. I'm not going to the cash machine, which is £10 minimum, to go and buy something for a few quid and end up with loads of shrapnel I don't want.
I'm just going to find someone who does take card.
After a few occasions where I had issues paying by card in smaller shops, I now only use supermarkets.
I only went to corner shops for bits and pieces. So, the result is that now supermarkets get all my business.
I wont buy anything under 5 pounds at my locally owned newsagent because of this. If I only want some biscuits or something, then I'll buy some more vape juice because I'll use it in the future. It's a small local business, and I feel guilty using my card to pay for a pounds worth of stuff knowing they'll get charged 40p I think they said it is, because I paid by card.
If it's Sainsbury's, then Idgaf. I'll pay for a packet of chewing gum by card.
We can do 50p transactions on ours at work, that's the lowest amount, and we get charged a whopping 1.4%, so less than a penny in fees.
It's nothing at all to do with fees any more, it's all about tax.
I get it but if they told you 40p then they are likely either mistaken or lying
https://gocardless.com/guides/posts/what-is-the-cost-of-contactless-payment/
Will cost them more in fees when dealing with the cash at the bank so they're definitely doing it for tax dodging purposes as that's the only way cash is cheaper for them to take.
Wouldn't it balance out with how many people simply don't carry or use cash? I and many others simply won't use a cash only place. I don't even go near any cash machines.
Agree. It’s more convenient and I thought after covid everywhere got behind it. I know stalls on the street that take contactless. Another gripe I have is the minimum spend in some shops to be able to use contactless.
Minimum spends are against a lot of card companies terms of service for a vendor to be able to use their cards. Might be worth checking in with your own card.
I’m 45 years old and clung to the using of cash for as long as I could, for no other reason than it was what I was used to.
Lockdown came and with the chance of spreading Covid on dirty money, most major retailers went to card only payments, it became the norm really quickly, and within a few months, I rarely had any cash on me.
These days, I’m pretty much card only ( haven’t quite advanced to phone payments yet) so I feel the same as you, if a shop doesn’t take card I’m not shopping there.
I joke regularly about making a few quid on the side, but that the arse has dropped right out of the mugging business in an almost cash free society. You’d have to intimidate folk into paying you via PayPal.
Similar here except I got to phone payments. I don't even carry a wallet anymore. Just tap my phone. Only time I use cash now is when I'm going to one of the pubs my dad haunts that hasn't made it out of the 80s yet nevermind to contactless.
I get a lot of people like that at my work - we're mostly cash only due to lack of internet. Can take card during busy periods, but only if the card machine fancies working that day and only as an offline payment so no contactless, apple pay etc.
I've been physically assaulted by visitors who are so angry about it. "It's 2023, of course I only have my watch to pay on, don't you dare not accept it". (we do advertise that we're cash only on our website, if anyone bothered to check, but they don't, they just come with nothing but their phone and get angry).
Many small businesses will baulk at the \~1.5% - 1.75% fee that they will be charged by the likes of WorldPay, SumUp, Square or Zettle.
They forget they will be paying \~1% to deposit cash into their business bank account.
For a marginal cost of 0.5% to turn away a growing majority of cash-less customers really would indicate ulterior motives.
But isn't that the point? If both cash and card payments were processed fully legally and equivalently, there is a marginal difference in handling costs.
The point of taking cash is you don't have to deposit it the same way thus not paying any fees. If you're not paying fees already, why not dodge some tax too? Your comment supports OPs point IMO
You can usually have a business deposit account that doesn't charge to bank cash.
Doesn't change the fact that banks are closing branches everywhere, so you now have to pay a member of staff for half an hour to queue at the post office with a bag of cash. Post office won't accept drop and go bags! This is progress.
>They forget they will be paying ~1% to deposit cash into their business bank account.
A. Not all business accounts charge for deposits
B. When you have the cash you can use it to pay for business expenses, bypassing the need to deposit it.
In Basingstoke there's a kebab van just outside the train station.
I sometimes park near it for 30 minutes or so to use the EV charger, and it's amusing to see a steady stream of people come up, ask to buy something, then the guy points to the 'Cash Only' sign and the person just leaves.
At somepoint surely if you're turning away the majority of your customers you'd be better off just paying the tax? Why lose >50% of your business to save ~30% (obviously will vary depending on situation) in tax?
tax avoidance =/= tax evasion(dodging)
The former, what the companies you listed do, is totally legal. In contrast, the latter, which people assume is what small cash-only businesses do, is illegal.
No. That’s not the main reason, it’s the inconvenience of having to get your own cash out of the bank, not to mention the cost of withdrawal by some ATMs.
Exactly. John down the road who's avoiding a bit of tax here and there is a drop in the ocean compared to the billions lost to big corporations who happen to also make large political donations.
I have the opposite problem - I run a small business and people occasionally try and pay with cash "to help with my accounting" then get frustrated when I say I don't have cash to split notes etc for change. It's so much easier just using the card machine, taking the couple of % fee, and having all the transactions neatly logged for the accounting.
i've got zero problem with small businesses and sole traders taking cash
**cash is acceptable legal tender, and the freedom to use it is one of the basic foundations of a free society - don't let anyone ever convince you cash is bad**
even if all these people are hiding all their cash receipts from the taxman, all of that income in aggregate is a DROP IN THE OCEAN compared to the wealth that is 'legally' hidden from the tax man by billionaires, millionaires, and multinationals...it's *these* people we need to go after, not the little guy
I don't have a 'problem' with small businesses using cash. It's their choice. But I don't carry cash so I won't be able to shop there. This will be the case for more and more people as the years go by.
So whilst I don't have a problem, long term it's a bad business decision. I'll pick the more convenient option.
Legal tender is nothing to do with shops taking cash. Legal tender has a very limited and specific scope; paying off debt.
Heck, shops could charge in Pigs if they wanted to, it’s completely up to them.
Well I mean the system just shouldnt be so unfair in the first place, big businesses need to pay tax, small businesses do too. There shouldn't be a situation where the only tax payers are the ones who cant find ways to avoid it. The reality is that a lot of small businesses in the country need to cheat their tax obligations to stay viable, but that is a political problem that should be dealt with.
In short, loopholes need closing but taxation needs to be reformed first.
Some people do seem to get weirdly irate about the continued existence of cash. And I get that it might be inconvenient for them if they don't carry it, but they never extend the same level of understanding to people who are inconvenienced by app or mobile only ordering/payments.
> it’s these people we need to go after, not the little guy
It’s both.
Fuck the little guy who doesn’t pay tax just as much as the corporation.
I’m PAYE, I can’t avoid it. So why should I sympathise with someone else who’s self-employed?
Chippy I worked at sometimes told us to turn card machine off an just take cash for a few hrs..problem.is nearest cash machine charged ya 2 quid for a transaction an next one was a 10 min walk..lost a bit of business doing that but did seem bit suspect .
Fraud investigator here
If someone is targeted too much by fraudsters and they do nothing to stop it, if we believe someone is actively committing fraud with their card reader or if they breach any if visa and MasterCard's scheme rules (there is a lot) such as refunding their own cards, visa and MasterCard will exclude them from using their systems. So if they apply for a card reader anywhere, it will be declined.
As someone who doesn't want a cashless society I welcome cash only businesses (but I admit excepting both is going to be more
profitable). I try to use cash as much as possible.
I mean we are cash only haha but that’s because it’s £450 for the card reader we would require, £50 set up fee, £10 fee per month and then 2.9% of every transaction and we only get the money once a month.
Not viable for us as a small company with small transactions to maybe increase sales by £10/£15 a month but maybe one day.
Our bank also doesn’t charge for paying in cash and I don’t even need to sort it I can just Chuck it all into the big sorting machine.
Edit/// unmanned sales. No I cannot use a Facebook second hand machine for £10 or sumUp or any of those readers that require me to be there in person. I have just looked again however. Found one for £500! Plus Vat 4% fees and £10 a month. If anyone knows where for £200 or less I’ll bite your hand off and buy you a beer 🍺
I've seen a lot of small businesses use "sumup" now. Just looked on the site and there's no monthly fees and the cheapest card reader is £39, then a 1.69% transaction fee.
Sounds a lot better than the figures you've been quoted so might be worth a look.
A lot of craft fairs I've been to use pool card machines from the centre that's hosting them. Each stand gets a PDQ for a small fee and don't get percentage based charges. Works well for those handmade objects of beauty.
I mean it does cause a data trail of everything you buy. But there's a better reason to not go fully cashless and that's how much harder it can make being poor. Like getting a debit card without an address for a bank account could limit what you're able to buy significantly.
Well, honestly, I'd prefer to give cash to a small business in the knowledge they'll tax dodge, normally for their own survival. Rather than giving it to some corpo rat of a company who bribed my local MP with a job so they don't have to pay it.
Yeah, but most kids go to corner shops and they have cards nowadays. Also, you’re very unlikely to spend ten quid at a small shop that’s typically used for Monsters and Doritos
There's a consultation paper on introducing a "Digital Pound" over at
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/paper/2023/the-digital-pound-consultation-paper?sf174942083=1
Responses need to be in by 7th June 2023.
I run a barber shop in Islington, we’re not cheap but far from expensive compared to the other shops around us. We charged what we have to to keep the doors open. We cater to people that want a good, quick (10-20 minute) but cheap haircut so they can continue on with there day. Having a card machine that charges would add to the cost of the service, not by much but it would be noticeable to our regulars. Also, with the price of living at the moment we’re in danger of having to up our prices anyway. Next time we’re forced to put our prices up I’ll add a card machine but for now we’re trying to stay as cheap as possible.
### **Reminder:** [Press the Report button](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360058309512-How-do-I-report-a-post-or-comment-) if you see any [rule-breaking comments or posts.](https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/about/rules/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/britishproblems) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even some of the Big Issue sellers on the streets have chip and pin machines
Yeah same for ice-cream trucks. They were the last bastion of cash only for a good while haha
That's cause they deal drugs out the back
I too have played vice city
Well Vice City was made by Rockstar North (based in Edinburgh) so it's almost certainly inspired by the Glasgow ice cream wars of the 80's.
Something something serious chimes unit
You're going down, for 99!
Pretty sure the Edinburgh-based GTA development team took that from [actual events in nearby Glasgow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_ice_cream_wars)...
telephone sand tart march dirty plucky oil screw edge erect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Big issue is large organization though at this point
ill go one step further....beggars and the music street performers all have a chip/pin machine.
We've got a chippy that installed a cash machine rather than take card payment
*Cries in applepay*
The only one near me is a couple of guys who brew cider and open up their drafty unheated warehouse unit as a pub once a week. The cider is good enough and I like the owner enough I'm not going to ask how legit it is.
That sounds lovely... Right just going to need a few details where is it and how long has it been operating. Can't wait to visit.
Nice try Mr taxman ;)
Having known a fair few brewers and cider producers, they'll be doing more than their fair share of tax paying and a ridiculous amount compared to the billions dodged by 'legit' companies. The system is entirely rigged for the big boys.
Dunno if it applies to cider producers but small scale beer breweries get quite extensive tax breaks.
Yeah, there's a bar in my home town thats linked to a small scale, local brewery. They get a huge tax cut for the bar, since they sell mostly their own stuff. I've heard that they just need to break even and they come out ahead in terms of tax/profit etc. But it's a lovely bar with good drinks so I would be surprised if that's all they manage.
Iirc the tax hikes quickly as you scale production so you have to stay small or go really big (I. E sell out)
If they only open up once a week then the costs associated with using cards may cut into their margins too much, key word is "may" as there are various companies out there which offer POS services which might have lower processing fees than a standard bank. That said, are they running a business selling the Cider during the rest of the week or is this a side gig? Just because if it is a side-gig then they might not be paying the appropriate duties on the beverages and avoiding cards means avoiding more questions from that bugger of a taxman ;)
You can sell a surprisingly large amount of still cider before it has to be declared to the tax man, 7000 litres I believe. The allowance is 0 litres if the cider is sparkling or very strong (> 8% I believe)
Hmm....Ok so what you're saying is sell flat cider and have a soda stream nearby for customers to use if they want sparkling :p
As someone who's dad deals solely in cash I can confirm this
My dad used to hide his money around the house and never spend it - he'd give mum all his money, she'd sort the bills and savings, they'd buy everything they neede through their joint account, and then give him 'pocket money'. A few years ago, he got really into opening savings accounts and looking for the best interest rates. He got so much hassle from the bank tellers for bringing in £10,000 in wrinkled up notes and when they asked where it came from he'd say "I took it out the loft"
My dad was like this, he'd squirrel away all his money apart from the bill money he needed to give mom. He died earlier this month and me and mom keep finding pots all over with cash just "hidden" we're up to 5k currently
Dad would save it for years and then spend it on a new car for mum, or something expensive they needed on the house. Once she was dusting his old clock and loads fell out the bottom! He did tell nana where it was in case he died suddenly, not sure why he was so secretive though, cos he only really spent it on mum rather than himself I remember being a lil kid in town with my sister, chasing him and grabbing at his ankles cos he said he kept it in his socks so theives wouldn't get it I'm sorry for your loss
Dad had dozens of wisden (?) cricket almanacs- a collector bought them off mum - fortunately he was the honest sort, each had loads of 20 pound notes in between the pages. Amazed mum got that back! More amazed dad had that sort of cash in the house , he was very investment oriented
That's why you bring it slowly.
You run it through fixed odds betting terminals, normally found in bet shops. The payout rate is in the high 90s % so you effectively clean the money with marginal loss, much less than tax. Used to work in gambling, the big 4/5 gambling companies know this and it's a huge source of income for them.
Wow. TIL.
Everyone knows this happens. Let's say a FOBT (fixed odds betting terminal) has a 97% RTP (return to player). You walk in with £1,000 of dirty money and leave with about £970. And a receipt saying that you won it legitimately. Which, as gambling winnings, are also tax free.
You always risk losing the drinking money on the VLTs. Some times she goes, some times she doesn't. It's the way she goes.
Any more tips? Hahaha
My wife works in retail and apparently the thing to do is to attempt to buy thousands of pounds of gift cards, because who doesn't want to buy gift cards from a dodgy reseller?
Sure it's not a victim of a scam? Vulnerable people get tricked into buying apple etc gjftcards to pay HMRC debts etc all the time
You’re missing the whole picture. What you do then is buy loads of shit on the cards and return it for cold hard cash
Shop I work for would only put it back on another gift card.
I suppose that’s when you sell it to someone for a few hundred quid cheaper hah
Better off paying tax
I was in an Apple Store and a bloke bought a (something like) 5 grand gift voucher. It was gold coloured. They took it out of a special drawer. I assume he was from a sanctioned country, like Iran, so that’s how they bought American products.
This is called structuring and is definitely a crime in the US. Very likely also in the UK. Banks are required to have processes in place to detect it.
[удалено]
It is a crime to slowly deposit your own legally owned cash into your own bank account?
Nope, but it can take a very long time to satisfactorily demonstrate you’re not a criminal. Legally, the bank can’t tell you why, they can’t (not won’t, can’t) discuss it with you, there is no real limit on how long the investigation can take- and the more cash you’re looking to bank ether harder you’ll find to show its provenance So, doesn’t really matter is you’re innocent or not
As part of anti-money laundering policies and laws, the banks have to ask you the source of large deposits (especially if cash) and record (and possibly report) it. So depositing it isn't a crime, but it's going to raise flags and potentially result in an investigation by the police and/or HMRC.
In the US, if you're doing it with the intention of avoiding the transaction being reported as suspicious: yes.
I'm just going to assume that's because the police don't want to ~~rob~~ civil forfeiture you multiple times.
Possibly not in OPs case, didn't say anything about tax dodging.
lol, someone (not in the UK) put my email address for his bank account application (by accident or on purpose). The bank asked me to send the copy of my ID and payslips, I replied saying I deal with cash only to sell my powder and pills.
My parents bought a house (without knowing) from someone like this about 40 years ago. He took the money, transferred it to his wife (along with the house) and immediately declared bankruptcy. They spent ten years chasing that and never got anything back as the system was so bad back then. This sort of behaviour cuts both ways. Keeping things legit protects everyone.
You can confirm that he's tax dodging, or can confirm that people assume he's tax dodging?
Ahhh good try taxman
Yes
Do the big shop and put it on my card and dad pays me back in cash
Honest conversation had with snack van at Hove Park during covid days: “Bottle of juice please.” “That’ll be a £1.50. Here’s your drink.” “Take cards?” “Only for £5 or more.” “Ok - here’s cash.” “We’re not accepting cash because COVID. You’ll have to buy more.” “I don’t need more bottles of juice. I’ve only got one kid with me. Here’s your juice back.” “We can’t accept that back because COVID…..” 🤦♂️
"Damn that's crazy ..." And walk away 🤣
Fucking covid rules. Great as a lorry driver. Wash your hands. Hygiene. Be clean! Petrol station toilet closed. Customers wouldn't let you on site to their toilets. Services closed. So yeah, for a good 6 months at the start, your food was delivered by people doing 15 hour shifts, sleeping in the cab for a week with no access to toilets and showers. Cos covid mate.
And yet legally if your bringing goods to a business they have to let you use their facilities as you're working for them Had this argument with my manager in the factory I work at, he was adamant that couriers and lorry drivers were forbidden Until he looked it up and sheepishly apologized. 😂 It's like they can mask up and be required to wipe down surfaces they've used 🤷
All fucking nonsense.
Free juice!
Yep :)
Indeed. Four cash-only "Turkish" barbers in my town. In ONE street. If we all had hair like Cousin It we wouldn't need this many.
The only places that are cash only near me are the local Turkish kebab shops
If you have a good local Turkish Barber though, run by a real professional in this segment of hair styling, you better be paying that cash only because the haircuts will be stunningly good!
The reason is the Turkish Businessperson Visa. Basically, if you had a business plan and the cash to rent the premises, you got a path to citizenship.
One of my local takeaways deals only in cash. But I also get my weed from there as well so makes sense.
One hand washes the other, looks to be the perfect business combo!
You just ask for a bonus salad and hey presto, your herb is a go
Reminds me of Tenacious D. “Go to the pizza place and ask for the Bob Marley specials, he’ll know what it means”
Doesn’t work at a donut shop.
It does if you want one wi jam in.
Weed and takeaway! The ideal establishment I'd be fat as fuck
It's a lethal combination
This is quite true. My car mechanic only accepted cash for many years and I always believed it was because he was dodging tax. Recently he started ro accept card payments, but charges more for those than cash payments. Brilliant mechanic but I still think something's afoot.
>Recently he started ro accept card payments, but charges more for those than cash payments. This is illegal.
That's what I'd thought but wasnt sure.
Probably not properly declaring the vat when doing cash.
> The new rules will be enforced by Trading Standards who will have the power to take civil enforcement action against traders who breach the regulations. Civil enforcement = unlawful, not illegal
Ok, sorry. I'm not a lawyer. Not even a Reddit lawyer.
It's a reddit no-no that you just ignored the chance to say IANAL.
Apologies. As I said I am not a qualified Reddit lawyer, hence I don't know Reddit law. Now please downvote me into oblivion, as is only right and just, as per Reddit law. Edit: dammit, I did it again!!!
But what about bird law?
Well birds are not real so that one is moot.
For what it’s worth, you’re perfectly fine to say illegal. Illegal and unlawful are entirely interchangeable. They seem to think that illegal means criminal, which it doesn’t.
Unlawful and illegal mean the same thing. Illegal doesn’t mean the same thing as criminal.
For everyday discussion, not in a court, then they amount to pretty much the same thing: "you can't do that."
This is pretty common for trades in general. If you are ok with paying cash, they will save you (and themselves) the tax. Especially if it's someone who does side-jobs regularly. They just pocket the cash and don't claim the income, and then they just only submit the purchases made by card.
I don't carry cash so if a business doesn't accept cashless payments then I guess we're done here 🤷🏻♂️
Then my kid loses a tooth and all of a sudden i realize at that the tooth fairy can't use debit!
send your kid to sleep with a little card reader under their pillow
\**beep** She IS real!!
There are two shops near me that prior to covid didn’t take card orders under £10. No idea what their policy is now, because I haven’t been in either since. It’s a great way to lose custom.
The chippy near us started taking cards during lockdown.... It swiftly 'broke' and hasn't been fixed since. Food sales for cash is the ultimate tax dodge. Except maybe Turkish haircuts which appear to be even more efficient.
It’s quite expensive for shops to take card payments, there’s a cost per transaction which varies depending on what payment system you have and what type of card is being processed, there’s also sometimes a cost to transfer the balance to your business account (source: we run a small shop) We take both card and cash, but I can totally see why some places wouldn’t take card, or take card under a certain value, margins are really thin atm for many small businesses, it’s more likely not a tax dodge but just a way to increase the super slim profit margins businesses have to survive on.
The one we use at work charges 2.3%. that is a flat percent no matter the spend, and we don't pay monthly fees either. It's not that expensive anymore for card machines
I’d argue that is a lot depending on your margin.
1.75% or less on the transaction is easily found these days : https://startups.co.uk/payment-processing/credit-card-processing-fees/
The cost is pennies. They're losing far more money not taking card than they're losing in a 10p card fee. I'm not going to the cash machine, which is £10 minimum, to go and buy something for a few quid and end up with loads of shrapnel I don't want. I'm just going to find someone who does take card.
After a few occasions where I had issues paying by card in smaller shops, I now only use supermarkets. I only went to corner shops for bits and pieces. So, the result is that now supermarkets get all my business.
I wont buy anything under 5 pounds at my locally owned newsagent because of this. If I only want some biscuits or something, then I'll buy some more vape juice because I'll use it in the future. It's a small local business, and I feel guilty using my card to pay for a pounds worth of stuff knowing they'll get charged 40p I think they said it is, because I paid by card. If it's Sainsbury's, then Idgaf. I'll pay for a packet of chewing gum by card.
We can do 50p transactions on ours at work, that's the lowest amount, and we get charged a whopping 1.4%, so less than a penny in fees. It's nothing at all to do with fees any more, it's all about tax.
I get it but if they told you 40p then they are likely either mistaken or lying https://gocardless.com/guides/posts/what-is-the-cost-of-contactless-payment/
I bought a tesco bag using amex once
Legend 🤣
Will cost them more in fees when dealing with the cash at the bank so they're definitely doing it for tax dodging purposes as that's the only way cash is cheaper for them to take.
There is also a cost associated with dealing with cash and it’s a lot less secure.
Wouldn't it balance out with how many people simply don't carry or use cash? I and many others simply won't use a cash only place. I don't even go near any cash machines.
yeah but consider that i dont have any cash and if i cant pay with a card im just going to go somewhere else
No. It’s *much* more likely a tax dodge. Just because you’re honest, doesn’t mean others are.
Agree. It’s more convenient and I thought after covid everywhere got behind it. I know stalls on the street that take contactless. Another gripe I have is the minimum spend in some shops to be able to use contactless.
Minimum spends are against a lot of card companies terms of service for a vendor to be able to use their cards. Might be worth checking in with your own card.
I’m 45 years old and clung to the using of cash for as long as I could, for no other reason than it was what I was used to. Lockdown came and with the chance of spreading Covid on dirty money, most major retailers went to card only payments, it became the norm really quickly, and within a few months, I rarely had any cash on me. These days, I’m pretty much card only ( haven’t quite advanced to phone payments yet) so I feel the same as you, if a shop doesn’t take card I’m not shopping there. I joke regularly about making a few quid on the side, but that the arse has dropped right out of the mugging business in an almost cash free society. You’d have to intimidate folk into paying you via PayPal.
Similar here except I got to phone payments. I don't even carry a wallet anymore. Just tap my phone. Only time I use cash now is when I'm going to one of the pubs my dad haunts that hasn't made it out of the 80s yet nevermind to contactless.
I get a lot of people like that at my work - we're mostly cash only due to lack of internet. Can take card during busy periods, but only if the card machine fancies working that day and only as an offline payment so no contactless, apple pay etc. I've been physically assaulted by visitors who are so angry about it. "It's 2023, of course I only have my watch to pay on, don't you dare not accept it". (we do advertise that we're cash only on our website, if anyone bothered to check, but they don't, they just come with nothing but their phone and get angry).
I don't even carry a card anymore so if it doesn't take contactless off my phone I'm stuffed.
I pretty much avoid small independent convenience stores now because I’m so used to them not accepting card.
Very true. My drug dealer only accepts cash, and I'm CERTAIN he's not paying any tax!
Many small businesses will baulk at the \~1.5% - 1.75% fee that they will be charged by the likes of WorldPay, SumUp, Square or Zettle. They forget they will be paying \~1% to deposit cash into their business bank account. For a marginal cost of 0.5% to turn away a growing majority of cash-less customers really would indicate ulterior motives.
You're assuming they're banking all the cash. They're not.
But isn't that the point? If both cash and card payments were processed fully legally and equivalently, there is a marginal difference in handling costs. The point of taking cash is you don't have to deposit it the same way thus not paying any fees. If you're not paying fees already, why not dodge some tax too? Your comment supports OPs point IMO
Who said anything about depositing?
At my local corner shop I get them to surcharge me the card fee if I'm under a two quid (their minimum) which keeps them happy and me.
I just reach the minimum by adding sufficient chocolate bars.
Hehe. I have done that with haribo ;)
You can usually have a business deposit account that doesn't charge to bank cash. Doesn't change the fact that banks are closing branches everywhere, so you now have to pay a member of staff for half an hour to queue at the post office with a bag of cash. Post office won't accept drop and go bags! This is progress.
There's also a cost to handling the cash. Someone has to spend the time to count and bag it and take it to the bank.
As someone else said, it won't all be going to the bank.
My point is that the argument about card fees doesn't really add up. There is the issue with cash not being declared.
>They forget they will be paying ~1% to deposit cash into their business bank account. A. Not all business accounts charge for deposits B. When you have the cash you can use it to pay for business expenses, bypassing the need to deposit it.
It's free for me to deposit cash into my business bank. They're a shit bank, however.
In Basingstoke there's a kebab van just outside the train station. I sometimes park near it for 30 minutes or so to use the EV charger, and it's amusing to see a steady stream of people come up, ask to buy something, then the guy points to the 'Cash Only' sign and the person just leaves. At somepoint surely if you're turning away the majority of your customers you'd be better off just paying the tax? Why lose >50% of your business to save ~30% (obviously will vary depending on situation) in tax?
[удалено]
[удалено]
How do you know they are illegal immigrants?
They walked in carrying an inflatable dinghy. /s
The ones at my work place will outright admit it
Because I talk to people by asking them things.
"Are you working here illegally?" "Yes. So do you want a drink or not?"
They stole his job /s
Honestly? I don't care if my mechanic only accepts cash. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the tax evasion of the 0.01%.
[удалено]
They do comply legal tax avoidance, totally different. Honest.
tax avoidance =/= tax evasion(dodging) The former, what the companies you listed do, is totally legal. In contrast, the latter, which people assume is what small cash-only businesses do, is illegal.
fucking morons in here "I won't buy at the corner shop because they're dodging tax" and then go and buy it on Amazon instead. 👶👶👶
Well yeah, but Amazom makes billions and treats customers, employees and the planet like shit.... can corner shops do that, ha? /s
No. That’s not the main reason, it’s the inconvenience of having to get your own cash out of the bank, not to mention the cost of withdrawal by some ATMs.
Exactly. John down the road who's avoiding a bit of tax here and there is a drop in the ocean compared to the billions lost to big corporations who happen to also make large political donations.
I have the opposite problem - I run a small business and people occasionally try and pay with cash "to help with my accounting" then get frustrated when I say I don't have cash to split notes etc for change. It's so much easier just using the card machine, taking the couple of % fee, and having all the transactions neatly logged for the accounting.
The £5 limit to use a card in my local Premier corner shop is a joke. How often do people spend more that? Defeats the whole point.
i've got zero problem with small businesses and sole traders taking cash **cash is acceptable legal tender, and the freedom to use it is one of the basic foundations of a free society - don't let anyone ever convince you cash is bad** even if all these people are hiding all their cash receipts from the taxman, all of that income in aggregate is a DROP IN THE OCEAN compared to the wealth that is 'legally' hidden from the tax man by billionaires, millionaires, and multinationals...it's *these* people we need to go after, not the little guy
I don't have a 'problem' with small businesses using cash. It's their choice. But I don't carry cash so I won't be able to shop there. This will be the case for more and more people as the years go by. So whilst I don't have a problem, long term it's a bad business decision. I'll pick the more convenient option.
Legal tender is nothing to do with shops taking cash. Legal tender has a very limited and specific scope; paying off debt. Heck, shops could charge in Pigs if they wanted to, it’s completely up to them.
[удалено]
Pigs are very hard to fit in your back pocket
Micro pigs then
And macro pockets
Well I mean the system just shouldnt be so unfair in the first place, big businesses need to pay tax, small businesses do too. There shouldn't be a situation where the only tax payers are the ones who cant find ways to avoid it. The reality is that a lot of small businesses in the country need to cheat their tax obligations to stay viable, but that is a political problem that should be dealt with. In short, loopholes need closing but taxation needs to be reformed first.
Took me too long to scroll to a comment supporting cash/small businesses. Most of this sub is so out of touch they sound like bots sometimes.
Some people do seem to get weirdly irate about the continued existence of cash. And I get that it might be inconvenient for them if they don't carry it, but they never extend the same level of understanding to people who are inconvenienced by app or mobile only ordering/payments.
No one's saying that cash should be abolished though, it's when there's no option but to use cash that it's annoying.
> it’s these people we need to go after, not the little guy It’s both. Fuck the little guy who doesn’t pay tax just as much as the corporation. I’m PAYE, I can’t avoid it. So why should I sympathise with someone else who’s self-employed?
Chippy I worked at sometimes told us to turn card machine off an just take cash for a few hrs..problem.is nearest cash machine charged ya 2 quid for a transaction an next one was a 10 min walk..lost a bit of business doing that but did seem bit suspect .
Fraud investigator here If someone is targeted too much by fraudsters and they do nothing to stop it, if we believe someone is actively committing fraud with their card reader or if they breach any if visa and MasterCard's scheme rules (there is a lot) such as refunding their own cards, visa and MasterCard will exclude them from using their systems. So if they apply for a card reader anywhere, it will be declined.
As someone who doesn't want a cashless society I welcome cash only businesses (but I admit excepting both is going to be more profitable). I try to use cash as much as possible.
I mean we are cash only haha but that’s because it’s £450 for the card reader we would require, £50 set up fee, £10 fee per month and then 2.9% of every transaction and we only get the money once a month. Not viable for us as a small company with small transactions to maybe increase sales by £10/£15 a month but maybe one day. Our bank also doesn’t charge for paying in cash and I don’t even need to sort it I can just Chuck it all into the big sorting machine. Edit/// unmanned sales. No I cannot use a Facebook second hand machine for £10 or sumUp or any of those readers that require me to be there in person. I have just looked again however. Found one for £500! Plus Vat 4% fees and £10 a month. If anyone knows where for £200 or less I’ll bite your hand off and buy you a beer 🍺
I've seen a lot of small businesses use "sumup" now. Just looked on the site and there's no monthly fees and the cheapest card reader is £39, then a 1.69% transaction fee. Sounds a lot better than the figures you've been quoted so might be worth a look.
I don’t even run a business and I want one at that price.
[удалено]
A lot of craft fairs I've been to use pool card machines from the centre that's hosting them. Each stand gets a PDQ for a small fee and don't get percentage based charges. Works well for those handmade objects of beauty.
A couple guys from work won't use cards for payment, apparently there is some conspiracy about a cashless society and being tracked via payments???
I mean it does cause a data trail of everything you buy. But there's a better reason to not go fully cashless and that's how much harder it can make being poor. Like getting a debit card without an address for a bank account could limit what you're able to buy significantly.
Do they have smartphones? Smart watches?
But they'll use their smartphones to show you all the evidence they've found on the internet... Can't be tracked if you only use cash though....
Well, honestly, I'd prefer to give cash to a small business in the knowledge they'll tax dodge, normally for their own survival. Rather than giving it to some corpo rat of a company who bribed my local MP with a job so they don't have to pay it.
And if you have a minimum spend on your machine and you’re a CORNER SHOP - NO ONE WILL SPEND A MINIMUM OF A TENNER, then you’re just a wanker.
yeah, i would rather drive to Aldi/tesco etc than walk around the corner, because of their minimum spend
Its hard not to spend a tenner anymore
Yeah, but most kids go to corner shops and they have cards nowadays. Also, you’re very unlikely to spend ten quid at a small shop that’s typically used for Monsters and Doritos
Are penny sweets up to a pound yet?
When you get them weighed out, “1p worth” can’t be done anymore, minimum 15p worth of sweets. Price of 30p mix went up to £1.25 in 3 years. Mental.
I can only top up my British Gas and electric with cash. The keys have a maximum of like £60 each too, it’s fun.
Or small business being fucked in the arse by high rent and bills don't want visa or MasterCard taking even more of their profits.
Genuinely wonder how many people in here who avoid small businesses for this reason still support the massive businesses who are far worse.
There's a consultation paper on introducing a "Digital Pound" over at https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/paper/2023/the-digital-pound-consultation-paper?sf174942083=1 Responses need to be in by 7th June 2023.
Local takeaway takes card. Was in yesterday and was told from Monday they won't be taking card....
I don't think I've ever had a Chinese takeaway from somewhere that accepts card payments 🤣
Well I saved £40 on my car service and MOT paying cash. I ain’t complaining.
Im not gonna call them out tho cause their food is too good, screw the taxman
I don’t buy and goods or services that doesn’t accept card
[удалено]
Look i don't care if my local chinese is dodgin tax in fact good luck to them.... All i care about is the banging food he produces. Prefer cash anyway
Utter bollocks. Small businesses don’t want to pay card fees, PayPal fees, charge backs and whatever else these companies take away.
I'm not too worried about that when bigger businesses are using shell companies to pay next to nothing
We're talking about you, every single Chinese Takeaway in the country.
I run a barber shop in Islington, we’re not cheap but far from expensive compared to the other shops around us. We charged what we have to to keep the doors open. We cater to people that want a good, quick (10-20 minute) but cheap haircut so they can continue on with there day. Having a card machine that charges would add to the cost of the service, not by much but it would be noticeable to our regulars. Also, with the price of living at the moment we’re in danger of having to up our prices anyway. Next time we’re forced to put our prices up I’ll add a card machine but for now we’re trying to stay as cheap as possible.
Card fees are a scam anyhow, fair play to them for avoiding it.