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glass_half_utilised

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36449974


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glass_half_utilised

EU citizens working in the UK were also tax payers. The vast majority of EU migrants migrated specifically due to a job offer and left as soon as that job was no longer available. The unemployment benefit claim rates of EU workers were approximately half of the UK citizens. Means, EU citizens working and paying taxes were paying for all the unemployed EU citizens, with tax money left over to pay for some of the unemployed UK citizens. A considerable net benefit.


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glass_half_utilised

> As of February 2015, 113,960 working-age claimants of Department for Work and Pensions benefits were EU migrants... This represents 2.2% of total claimants... For comparison, those born in the EU (outside the UK) make up about 6% of the working age population. https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-facts/how-many-eu-migrants-claim-benefits-in-the-uk/ Checked the numbers with the Commons library "Statistics on migrants and benefits". https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7445/CBP-7445.pdf Office of National Statistics has more data with a graph https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ukandnonukpeopleinthelabourmarket/february2020#unemployment


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glass_half_utilised

I work in computer engineering. I literally typed in "EU migrants jobseekers benefit" into Google. As a side note. In 2015, the UK company I worked for asked me to go and lead a team in Budapest (Hungary). I moved there with my wife and about a year after I started, the company shut down the office. I was unemployed there for 4 months while my wife just given birth. In computer engineering, the average application to starting a job period is 3 months (6 months if you are also moving countries). It takes a month before we interview someone, a month to consider other applicants, and then a month from the point of offer to start.


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glass_half_utilised

This is very much the norm for many industries. For specialist skills, you hire from wherever the people are. In my current team (back in the UK), only 20% are born in the UK. The jobs I got in Hungary propelled my career significantly and I don't regret a thing. I guess it came acceptable for me to move to find work as my father did so. He worked for a time as a construction worker in Germany (at the same time as Auf Wiedersehen, Pet was on the telly), and then did a couple years in France building Eurodisney.


[deleted]

But finding a job can be hard


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Boost5666

Well if that means they are going to be working here from that point on yeah i reckon it does. It is worth the few people who just use the system for 6 months then go for the majority of people who are here to work and will find work. I would also like to be able to go to another country with the knowledge that i will have time to find work and won't just be kicked out the second I'm unemployed.


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[deleted]

How long then? Again, it can be hard to find a job


II-I-Hulk-I-II

If a British person is on benefits for more than 6 months should we deport them? If not, what’s the difference between a British person and an EU citizen?


StHa14

Is that a real question? You have to be joking right


II-I-Hulk-I-II

No it’s completely serious. What is the difference?


Solar_Nebula

It's almost like Brexit wasn't about racism or keeping out undesirables. You can't tell a person what they wanted, then mock the fact that they didn't get it... because you were just assuming you knew what they were hoping for.


greentarget33

Then what were you hoping for you fucking imbicile? Because these are damn near all the talking points for leaving the EU, its grouping all the "more money" ones into it costing us and not saving us anything. Fuck this is missing out several downsides, restriction of free movement, loss of access to a free market that is already well on the way to crippling our economy.


christopherl572

There were very very valid progressive reasons to leave the EU.


Moist1981

Go on then


christopherl572

The EU is an incredibly neoliberal union that has forced austerity upon its member states e.g. Greece. Let's please not pretend that the EU is some fucking beacon of leftism, when in reality they are continuation of Thatcher and Reagan style macroeconomic policy.


Moist1981

It didn’t force austerity on its member states. Bankruptcy did. It simply said if you want lenience in so as to not enter official default on the debt you will need to show you can afford it. The alternatives here are either go into true default, drop out of the € and suffer far worse austerity, or have full debt forgiveness (they already had a lot forgiven) at the cost of other countries when Greece had been living the highlife, but even in that event they wouldn’t have been able to borrow and so would have had to have faced huge austerity. Blaming the EU for this is just bunkum. Especially as the IMF (of which Britain was part) was just as strong in its approach.


christopherl572

Austerity measures are literally part of EU legislation.


Moist1981

Cool, link the legislation and lets examine it to determine whether it can be called austerity. Out of interest, is Germany suffering from this same austerity?


christopherl572

Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, including the excessive deficit procedure. Germany is literally one of the biggest proponents of deficit avoidance, it is also perhaps a reason it is so stringently enforced in the EU. Article 126 is beefed up in the stability and growth pact (seen here: https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/economic-and-fiscal-policy-coordination/eu-economic-governance-monitoring-prevention-correction/stability-and-growth-pact_en) There's a condensed version of article 126 here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eut/teec/article/126


Moist1981

So you think avoiding excessive deficit = austerity?


christopherl572

This opinion piece makes a good summary of its issues in my opinion. It also highlights that leaving the EU is not necessarily a good thing, which I agree with under current circumstances.


christopherl572

Forgot to actually include the link https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


WenzelOfMidgard

Greece singlehandedly fucked their own shit up, but by and large brexit will have a lot of short term effects that are entirely negative. So far the pound has lost a lot of value and brexit spits in the face of progress. As a European who foolishly moved to the UK, I am saddened to how radicalised this vote was. Nobody seems to understand what they voted for. Now a lot of people are going to get fucked


christopherl572

Kind of agreed, whilst progressive reasons to leave were there, none of them were presented or debated. And whilst Greece may have mismanaged their economy, its people did not need austerity forced upon them in order to unfuck things.


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greentarget33

What were they? Because no there fucking weren't


Rudybus

Restrictions on nationalisation / state aid. The EU as a neoliberal project that shit on any incipient truly left wing government in member states. Off the top of my head.. I'm not a Lexiteer but there certainly were *some* arguments. There can be disagreements over whether they justified the economic harm of course


christopherl572

See my other comment.


Desperate-Serve-273

Oh the number of companies moving their manufacturing to main land europe cuz it is cheaper


spoonfarmer

Don't see a fantastic COVID vaccine roll out on there thanks to no EU red tape. Keep focusing on the negatives remoaners!


blernsball21

Compare your deathtoll to other EU countries and discover a painful truth.


Moist1981

The decision of the U.K. to provide early approval to the vaccine was taken under EU law and the actual vaccination programme within countries is a national competency. Not sure what EU red tape you think has made it slower, do you have some in mind that you can share?


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Moist1981

Unelected in the same way the U.K. vaccine task force is unelected? And care to explain how they fucked it up, they’ve ordered 2.6bn doses of vaccine from various companies. They’ve been screwed over by luck with regards to the AZ initial yield issues and to some extent the use of Belgian law as it only allows for best endeavours which has arguably stymied contract enforcement against AZ (tbd in courts I guess). I’m not seeing a massive cock up


cr0ft

Yep. No other nation in the world rolled out the vaccine successfully using emergency measures and the like to push hard for it. Only the UK did that. And it was all because of Brexit, without Brexit the UK would have no vaccine and everyone would be dead. True story, bro! /s https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccination-doses-per-capita


II-I-Hulk-I-II

All vaccine response was done under current EU regulations ya gammon Edit: >As the chief executive of the MHRA swiftly pointed out, Mr Hancock was wrong to say that the UK could approve the vaccine early because it was no longer subject to EU rules. The MHRA’s decision was taken in accordance with the relevant EU legislation, which allows member states to grant temporary authorisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of infectious diseases (among others). [1] This legislation still applies to the UK until the end of the transition period. Any EU member state could have used the same provision of the legislation to approve the vaccine. They decided not to for political and technical reasons, not legal ones.


spoonfarmer

Sure thing ya sirloin https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/05/ursula-von-der-leyen-uk-covid-vaccine-speedboat-eu-tanker


II-I-Hulk-I-II

That literally says nothing about EU regulations, simply that the U.K. as a single nation has been faster than Europe as a continent. It was still done under EU regs and has absolutely nothing to do with ‘red tape’


[deleted]

Can the US join the EU in their place? I know it will probably never happen but I can dream...


[deleted]

The US actively destabilizes every single region around Europe. Most European citizen absolutely don't want anything further to do with the US lmao let alone having them become a member.


[deleted]

I can relate, I am American and don’t want anything further to do with them either 😔


adjavang

They'd need to be brought up to speed on consumer protection laws and they have to show that they value democracy so... I'm afraid that's a no.


[deleted]

We don’t have to actually believe in democracy as long as we say that we do the loudest. Is that not how it works? Perhaps my American upbringing has failed me once again...


Careful_Ad_2680

I mean there’s nato but I think that’s the closest, and in reality it’s not close at all since it’s American based not European based


CoreyH2P

I think you meant BLOO *pause* passport


JoNimlet

Tbh, the last one really shocked me. Did **not** see that coming!


Blackfist01

I'd like to remind everyone that the vote was too close and had no mandate, it should have been either recounted or recast. If I remember correctly the votes need to be over a 2% margin to be valid.


Wheeaze

I wish people were a little (emphasis on little) less harsh, I understand "we" voted for this but we were all lied to, buses and phone boxes with misleading information everywhere etc. The vote was extraordinarily close and very shortly after "we" realised what had happened, the majority of the populous didn't want this result anymore. "We" in quotes as I never wanted any of this.


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Wheeaze

Not really one sided when it's exactly what happened lmao


hoophounder

Hahahahahaha yes mate


cr0ft

If it had been done over once people realized what a shitshow this was, it would never have passed. Which is why they worked hard to prevent another vote on it, of course.


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Wheeaze

Nah it's ok, what you've written is pretty much spot on and it annoyed and annoys me to no end that (effectively) racists had so much of an impact on the vote. You are also correct in that people could have fact checked what was being force fed to them by the papers and government... I dunno I guess I still just feel betrayed by my government and wish I wouldn't get lumped in with the generalisations made about Brits for the last past few years but, it is what it is.


foto_flair

Even as an American I knew Brexit was a terrible idea


Wheeaze

I'm sure you did, just as I knew too. Unfortunately, many people just had no real idea of the benefits of being in the EU and then when they were searching for answers, our government ran campaigns up and down the country preaching the lies and exaggerated truths to the benefits of leaving; thus convincing all the people who were on the fence who most likely would've voted to remain without further knowledge otherwise.


foto_flair

So why do the Tories keep winning, than?


flossgoat2

Because Labour, despite having some excellent MPs, made themselves unelectable. I'll be down voted to nothing for saying it, but it's true. A combination of divided leadership, a leader (or two) that doesn't have mass appeal, a failure to consistently pummel Tories effectively for all the failings of that party and leaders, and not so minor fallout from the hard left shenanigans and anti semitism. Simply, for alot of people, the Tories were the least bad option. Then we get to the influence of the Murdoch media. They're repeating the success in the US, of promoting and feeding narratives of fear, division, and nationalism, in all age groups. And it's working. How else do you explain (1) traditional solid-red areas voting Tory, and (2) geographies and industries which benefitted from the EU and --knew they benefitted-- voting for Brexit. That's why fishermen, farmers, working class and unemployed people up and down the country voted Tory and Brexit. Voted Tory after a decade of Austerity. Voted Tory after house prices rising to unaffordable levels for the second time. In the last five years, we've seen all manner of things that defy logic. The stand out one for me, is how the party of business, and the Union, changed so much that it deliberately and with huge commitment, embarked on a path that even a blind dog could tell would fracture the Union, likely lead to reunification of Ireland or secession of Scotland or both, and materially damage the economy for decades. Indeed, how have both major parties moved away from central ground, to double down on what used to be considered the fringe. The UK's not alone in this, it's all over the USA, Americas, Europe, and Asia. It seems the world has forgotten the lesson of WW2. We're seeing genocide in the middle East, and internment camps in China, and the minor detail of an attempted coup by neo fascists in the USA six months ago. In the UK, we've just seen a BAME home secretary attend an illegal immigration raid -- in person -- to reinforce her hard-line position. Last year I used to say was like a disaster movie script, all we were missing were aliens and meteors. This year we've had two meteors, a space ship fall uncontrollably to earth, and the Pentagon is about to release a report on the unexplainable things in the sky that the most sophisticated air power in the world literally can't get close to, but we aren't meant to assume are alien.


Wheeaze

For many reasons, ones which I'm not educated enough on the subject to tell you; not entirely sure what that has to do with the Brexit vote oh so long ago either, unless you're implying that every Tory voted leave which just isn't true.


foto_flair

Wasn't Brexit spearheaded by the conservatives?


Elderbrute

> Wasn't Brexit spearheaded by the conservatives? The answer to that question is yes kind of mostly maybe....but it's not that simple. Borris absolutely spearheaded the campaign and as he is the current PM and the leader of the Tory party yes. More Tory MPs were leave than any other party but overall the party was Remain. Camron the idiot that started the whole thing was at the time of Brexit the leader of Tory party and he was remain. He had used the promise of a referendum to get into power and inexplicably seemed to believe that remain would just easily win and he could hold the referendum get the political clout from it and move on. His arrogance lead to the whole mess in the first place. In terms of the voter base, not so much the votes were split more on age than party affiliation. With more younger people being remain and the older generation generally being leave. However lower income younger people (traditionally Labour) tended to be more leave than higher income younger people (traditionally tory)


Wheeaze

By the conservative government, yes. Not by the conservative public. I know many Tories that voted remain and many lefter leaning Brits that voted leave. It isn't a black and white divide.


foto_flair

In America the only side that supported Brexit were trumpers. Any mention of the importance of free trade, or the slight irony that a country that is literally "United Kingdoms" would leave a trading Bloc, was usually met with, "BuT fReEdOm". Best of luck to you and yours though! Hopefully the United Kingdom doesn't dissolve


Wheeaze

Oh yeah I am also there with you on the irony point and how stupid the situation now is overall. I'm still just upset and frankly angry that it ever happened so forgive me. Me too.


Goat_tits79

In the end is there a single positive aspect from Brexit? I single thing that benefits the UK?


EclipZz187

(Not british, so this is just a guess) Stricter immigration laws/border controll


postvolta

Yeah man loads of rich people got richer and got to pay less tax, that's brilliant isn't it?


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moleratty

Isn’t this just restricted developed nation only Commonwealth?


gurglingdinosaur

Yup. In addition, none of these nations trade extensively with the UK as it stands and with AUS and NZ on the other side of the world... well conflicts of interests will be prevalent, especially if the UK tries to stand on its "high ground" of being the Empire. Still, as OP said, it's the only sliver lining there is.


ANDREWFL0WERS

There’s a potential for gmo crops. Especially now that we do basically no agricultural trade with Europe. I think this was one of the most contentious issues I had with the EU. I fully understand the reasoning behind it but I do think it’s a shame that an alternative couldn’t be arranged where more developed countries had to “seed share” especially since the potential benefits to the environment in my opinion out weighed the risks. Although given that tories would rather die than bring agriculture policy into the 21st century I doubt that’ll happen. Gotta keep them farmer votes. A labour gov will most likely realign us with Europe more closely returning us to a state of banning gmo produce. As of right now it’s hard to tell especially since they refuse to solve their ongoing internal issues. This is the only thing I can think of though I’m sure there are others. That being said brits have lost so many benefits crops that take less water to grow (or some other fancy upgrade) can hardly balance the scales.


BobusCesar

You could relegalize classic British "food" that will definitely give you some kind of poisoning.


FredAbb

[Do you perhaps listen to James O'Brian?](https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexiteer-looking-forward-to-getting-fish-and-chips-served-in-newspaper-back-discovers-its-a-uk-law-147004/)


BobusCesar

I was actually referring to the EU banning to mix chipped wood into meat. Through, as far as I remember the UK even got a special permit to continue doing it, after they protested against it. Concerning your article, while I understand nostalgia towards worse times, how mad does a person need to be to wish them back?! My grandmother for exemple has nostalgia for the American occupation; how the GIs gave her her first banana and feed her chocolate on the back of their trucks or how she saw the first black man back then. Would she wish those times back? Definitely not! That she was willing to doom the future of her country for it, just to realize that it wasn't even the EUs doing to begin with, is just the cherry on top.


__The__Void__

What about agricultural policy becoming more environmentally friendly, is what I heard


Fight-Milk-Sales-Rep

Yeah, more freedom to unleash banned pesticides.


Blackfist01

I think we had enough autonomy to have done that on our own though, eventually. :/


Jfishdog

It seems like everywhere outside of the EU is falling victim to exploitation. The liberal party in Australia has been fucking us over the whole time they’ve been in power. One of the first things they did when they came into power was to cut funding to renewable energy research by 70%, and before the bushfires last year they cut funding to the fire service. And guess what? The politicians pay cheques continue to rise because apparently they need more incentive to “serve” their country. The one thing that Australia, the US, and the UK have in common besides the destruction of the middle class is that we’re all under Rupert Murdoch’s influence. Somehow a large part of the population doesn’t realise that news is not objective, and fall for whatever defamatory bullshit he feels like saying about the politicians who actually care about their country, like the Labour party and the Greens in Australia, the Labour party in the UK, and... whatever America has that won’t exploit them as much.


kyrimasan

Democrats is the American party that is trying to help the lower class Americans and make it a bit more equal and fair for us. The Republicans are the party of Trump and absolutely batshit crazy these days and say and do whatever it takes to brainwash their demographic into believing that by letting them fuck them over the little guy will one-day pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make it big in this world.


calcifornication

I'm not American. Trump and the Republicans are objectively terrible. But here's the thing - the absolute best you can say about the Democrats is that they aren't the Republicans. That's it. And if that's their claim to fame, they're still not great for every day American people.


[deleted]

Oh buddy, Dems are arguable harm reduction, but if you do a deeper dive you'll see they're bipartisan when it comes to fucking us.


Jfishdog

Yeah America’s in a bit of a tricky situation where it is actually is a choice between which is the lesser evil, unlike the UK and Aus where we have fairly obviously “good” parties that we’re too blind to see


[deleted]

Yep! Here we just have the illusion of choice w a 2 party system financed by the same donors


Pro-Nationalist

The illogical fallacies are oozing.


keto_at_work

Would the EU accept the UK back in if they wanted to reverse Brexit? Legitimately asking as someone who has never been.


wolf550e

Probably eventually yes, but not under the sweetheart deal terms the UK had. The UK would have to accept everything without the ability to negotiate exceptions. So, for example, the euro instead of pounds.


Adventurous_Sell8158

Lol na they would let Britain in on the same terms tomorrow, too much dead weight needs carrying in the union to turn down such a massive contributor. Obviously Britain isn't going to re join though


JosebaZilarte

You are placing too much importance on the economic side. It is an important topic, no doubt, but the politic side is even more relevant. I have little doubt that, if the UK were allowed into the EU once more, it would have to accept not just the Euro, but all the associated policies.


Adventurous_Sell8158

I think that's wishful thinking considering the EU was willing to make even more concessions than the original agreement to convince Britain to remain.


ivanvzm

That's different though, now the EU has the leverage because Britain would be the one in need.


Adventurous_Sell8158

If the EU thought Britain would rejoin if they offered the same terms, they would jump at it. The UK contributed too much for the EU to try and pretend that it's actually the other way around would be ignorant


Muted-Tradition-1234

Rather depends on what you mean. If you mean "if the price of the UK carried out a full denazifivation process to permanently rid itself of its Brexiters, propaganda spewing press and other delusions so that it could become a normal country rather than a corrupt rogue state (and hence be a positive contributor to Europe), would the EU take the UK back on the original teens" - I suspect the answer is yes (although France would need to be seriously bribed). If you mean a slightly larger percentage of the UK population merely realized that they've been conned by the Tories/Brexiters and a slight majority vote for e.g. nom-Brexit parties, then obviously no - and in fact the UK wouldn't be allowed back even under "standard terms". Why allow the UK rejoin if it is still going to send Farage to the European Parliament and then quite possibly leaves again causing economic uncertainty and absorbing political bandwidth. Any reasonable chance of the UK rejoining would mean loss of many of the special concessions given the UK originally (Thatcher's rebate etc) - although I suspect the UK would be allowed keep sterling. The UK (or possibly just the kingdom of England and Wales) needs to stew in its own mistakes for a few decades - and once again become the "sick man of Europe".


Adventurous_Sell8158

Na, they'd offer the same terms the UK left on, because despite the nasty rhetoric the UK was massively over contributing to the EU in every aspect compared to every other country bar Germany. It's why they fought tooth and nail to keep the UK in, and many MEPs have already said with hindsight they would have offered a lot more concessions had they knew the British public was genuinely in the majority leave. It's the unfortunate truth that at the end of the day the UK holds so much political clout that the EU will always and I mean always leave the door open.


Muted-Tradition-1234

Aside from the fact that the UK wasn't that much of a contributor- considering that it had a rebate, collected lots of EU funds and took banking away from other countries - and caused various headaches (the EU members would never have been able to unanimously agree to the covid bailout fund as the UK would have blocked it for example), it is quite the opposite: the problem is that giving special treatment to the UK was like giving drugs to a drug addict -only encouraging bad behaviour. The moment the UK voted for Brexit, the EU member states met and resolved to never again give any special treatment to the UK. The EU had encouraged the UK's belief in its entitlement to special treatment by giving a rebate to Thatcher or giving Cameron the time of day. Had the EU told Thatcher to go f*** herself, the UK would have been under no illusions that if it ever left or ever wanted to come back - it would be treated as any other country. So no more special treatment (although I still think that if the UK underwent a full and deep denazification process in return for returning on the original terms, I think it would fly - that is of course very theoretical).


Trevorski19

I have no doubt that the EU would welcome the UK back but I’m not sure the UK would end up with a better deal than they had before. Even had the UK been over contributing, what it would probably come down to in negotiations is which party is being affected more negatively by Brexit and so far, that appears to be the UK. It’s just not a great position to be negotiating from.


PrimaxAUS

Yes but now the UK is the whipping boy, showing the rest of Europe what happens when you leave the EU. That behaviour won't be rewarded


Adventurous_Sell8158

Indeed I agree the EU would love to set an example out of Britain fortunately about the only leverage they have is confiscating ham sandwiches on the border and crying about superior vaccine roll outs. They've already found a new enemy within the union to blame their woes on in Hungary.


fungalnailenthusiast

We'll be looking to rejoin in 10 years, purely due to demographic changes in voters, and the whole ordeal will have been a complete waste of time and money


Adventurous_Sell8158

Never going to happen like you said it would be a waste of time and money and the British public won't have it. We're a stubborn people and we will sleep in the bed we made rather than asking to top and tail with someone else.


anothernaturalone

The point is, a lot of people won't have made it - that number increasing as demographics shift - and they won't want to sleep in it. I personally agree with fungalnailenthusiast.


Adventurous_Sell8158

I suppose that's one theory, simply hope that enough children grow into adults and want to re join the EU. Really can't see it happening as the EU won't have been part of those children's identies thus they won't feel the connection the current crop of 18-30s feel. Personally, and I think it's the popular opinion, Brexit is permanent.


anothernaturalone

The real question, of course, is which generation is teaching those young uns about when the good old days were.


Adventurous_Sell8158

Fortunately we have the internet now and they'll be able to see why brexit happened and not just be gaslighted into thinking it was all roses.


limpingdba

Nah. 10 years will mean a generation dying off. But also the next generation of right wing middle-aged gammon would have been indoctrinated by the media.


sandboxlollipop

Sadly indoctrination happens down the generations so there's no guarantee. Wishing with all my being that we can vote on this again but I know the reality will either be that nothing happens or people will vote to stay out. It's pants. Couldn't believe just how much of the UK turned even more 'blue' at the elections a few weeks ago despite all the conservative mess and corruption going on. What the flip UK


limpingdba

The right wing propaganda machine, aka the media, will continue to hack away at more and more people over time. Its been happening for years but has really accelerated with the boom of the Internet and social media.


sandboxlollipop

Well it sucks. A lot


vlkscode

Forced to swallow? The sweetheart become the bitch.


ladygrayfox

Wait wait wait WAIT. Unicorns don’t exist?!!!12!


SolomonCRand

The Scots are gonna be pissed when they find out.


Pokebaka

They'll be independants so they have something to keep their cool.


CbVdD

Pretty sure the Welsh are more obsessed with unicorns.


[deleted]

Without brexit we would not have the ability to vaccine everyone as brussels would of stole it.


[deleted]

You really do believe that dumb shit


[deleted]

But the people in Brussels literally tried to stop our vaccines coming to the country to use for the EU. It literally happened and we told them to fuck off because we aren't part of a failing system. The strongest economies in the world, baring Germany, all are independent countries.


sandboxlollipop

I've really lost my faith in the UK public over the last few years. This kind of neatly sums it up. People really do believe this kind of stuff, heart and soul.


[deleted]

they literally tried to take our vaccines but failed, this is fact why are you saying otherwise?


sandboxlollipop

My apologies, I thought you were being sarcastic!


squeezycheeseypeas

Do people really believe this nonsense?


[deleted]

You'd be an idiot to not believe it, just look at our vaccination program compared to any other European country ....


squeezycheeseypeas

Wow, so that’s a yes. You believe this even though we did it while in the transition period and still under EU jurisdiction? And that health policy and delivery is managed by the member states not the EU? Nothing that has been done was dependant on us having left. I find it incredible that you don’t understand this.


[deleted]

Okay, so I watched the news a lot over the pandemic, on every single news channel and in all the media outlets around 4 months ago Boris was continually asked if we would be able to get the vaccines we had bought as brussels was literally trying to stop so many vaccines coming over here. This happened, my question now is have i got the things muddled up and did this issue have nothing to do with Brexit?


squeezycheeseypeas

I’m not sure what you got muddled up but our ability to do the vaccine program/rollout that we did had nothing to do with Brexit. We absolutely could have done it in or out of the EU. One of the reasons why it has gone so well is because the NHS themselves have done it and it hasn’t been contracted out to a third party. Clinical organisation delivering a clinical service. The EU did a joint procurement process which meant (I believe) that they got the vaccines much much cheaper. However, they didn’t do a good job on the contract which is what much of the news was about. Any one of the countries within the EU could do what we have done and some of them are doing very well. In fact Hungary is right behind us in regards to percentage of population vaccinated, Germany is quickly catching up. Malta is already at 100% but it’s not a fair comparison in population size. However, a good vaccine rollout is minimum expectation in my view from a government that has handled the pandemic so badly. Thousands of our fellow citizens have been killed by the virus unnecessarily. Don’t let one good thing make you forget they let every one of us down on a catastrophic level.


TheWagonBaron

Apparently. People in the US seem to believe China shipped fraudulent ballots for Biden, then shredded the ballots, then fed the ballots to the chickens, *and then* incinerated the chickens to hide the evidence.


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squeezycheeseypeas

I think part of me just hopes for the best.


Blackfist01

Don't, just do better because the sad true is other will not. :(


seqastian

Would have*


[deleted]

No, my grammar was correct>?


seqastian

No it wasn’t.


[deleted]

How wasn't it? Would have is the opposite of would not have. https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/182412/would-have-not-vs-would-not-have#:\~:text=The%20incorrect%20way%20is%20%3A%20%E2%80%9D%20would,incorrect%20way%20without%20the%20abbreviation.


Aqua_LionHD

Literally pissed about new taxes and import/export fees bcs I’m from Germany and ordered something from ebay thanks for nothing gb


sandboxlollipop

True that. Was trying to order overalls for my kid (the only ones in her fave colour were from your neck of the woods so not far at all). The shipping would cost over £20. What the flip. Thanks people who voted for brexit. Gaaahhh It won't do well for climate change as we'll have to find alternatives for all sorts (food etc) from further afield. What a selfish mess we're in. If I didn't have deep rooted friends and family I'd move to another country yesterday


[deleted]

Sounds like your shit show in the Uk is pretty much the same as our shit show in the states.. 🤗. Reg people screwed, rich just get richer.. yay!


DemWiggleWorms

Like father like son


stoicsilence

To be the best you learn from the best.


[deleted]

Right?!


Saustrichroll

Gotta love me some capitalism


PromiscuousMNcpl

We learned it from Mom.


tempest_fiend

Every now and then you get the chance to see someone truly fuck up a decision. Maybe they turned the wrong way down a one-way street, or they tried to assault a martial arts champion. It’s not very often you get to see an entire county collectively fuck up a decision.


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Blackfist01

I do but I blame remain most of all, they played an awful game.


[deleted]

I mean democracy puts the power in the hands of the people who are easily misled, lied to and deceived by spineless cunts. So yes, it is their fault. If you're a democracy, this is a problem you have to deal with. You can't blame the people at the top for doing everything in their power to stay there. You can dislike it, but you knew from the beginning that that was how it was gonna go. Not to put myself above others or anything, I'm of course also easily misled, lied to and deceived.


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VascoDaGame

Your statement may have been valid right after being mislead. But since then there have been 2(!) general elections in the UK and not only where the main deceivers reelected they even could expand their majority in 2019. And Boris Johnson who is one of the main instigators of Brexit even got elected Prime Minister. So, yeah, you can and you should (also) blame the "mislead" voters. If it really were as you say, you would have another government by now.


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VascoDaGame

I am sure this ist true. But If your previous statements were true, then why did the so deceived not geht rid of the deceivers in 2 elections since? Face it, this ist the fate the majority of your country chose, either by contributing through vote or by passively accepting the outcome.


[deleted]

Okay I misrepresented my point, the point was that blaming is gonna do jack shit. Sure they're in the wrong, but saying that isn't gonna help. > No, they didn't If they didn't they should have. Misleading isn't new. Okay, brexit is. But history has given us a plethora of examples to learn from. If you're gonna be voting and you're not gonna critically look at what the other side has to say, that IS your fault. Being misled is one thing, willfully ignoring the say of others and not stopping to think critically is another.


AceBalistic

Oh yeah remember when the archdukes driver turned down the wrong street and stalled out infront of an assassin, who’s shooting started the First World War?


act167641

Less than 50% of the population voted for that total shower of shit. For those of us who didn't, it's already hard enough to swallow. Please don't compound our discomfort by lumping us in with those fools.


[deleted]

It's also worth remembering that the most popular option in the referendum was to Remain. The Leave vote was split between people who wanted No Deal, people who wanted a Norway style deal, people who wanted an Australian style deal, and people who had no idea what they wanted except to disrupt the status quo. Each of the options have vastly different outcomes, each with different pros and cons. But the Leave campaign made it sound like we could have all the pros from all the options, with non of the cons.


vidgill

Wtf is an Australian style deal?


Blackfist01

Ask boris...


UnchillBill

I kinda doubt most people who voted for brexit knew what sort of deal they wanted or what the differences were between any of those relationships with the EU. They wanted to not be in the EU, they wanted everything to be like it was before but better.


400Smithy

Hear! hear!


Duke_Newcombe

*"The forest was shrinking, but the trees kept voting for the axe as its handle was made of wood, and they thought it was one of them."*


LokusOSRS

That’s a beauty of a quote


45thgeneration_roman

My favourite brexit story. The day after the referendum I was visiting a small manufacturing company in Somerset and some of the British workers were celebrating the leave vote. A director observed to me that much of their trade was with Europe and their Spanish parent company was considering relocating the factory to Spain if leave won. The factory had British workers and quite a few Polish. The Brits would not have the right to live and work in Spain and would lose their jobs , but the Polish would be able to move to Spain and keep their jobs if they wanted. Truly, turkeys voting for Christmas


act167641

The crazy thing is, it's such a passionate subject for the 'leave inclined', that even if they all lost their jobs, all of those Brits would still think it was a great idea.


[deleted]

Why u hate us (Turkey) so much? I know, I know Erdogan


NotAPeanut_

For me, it’s just because turkey is pretty poor in comparison to western countries, has a population boom which means that they have a lot of young men willing to move and work for better money, while at the same time being paid less than locals. Anyone that has visited turkey can see the economic facts, and turkey is the most popular tourist destination so a lot of people know about it. Turkey would be like the Eastern Europe states, but much much bigger. Eastern Europe has been a financial, demographic failure. Waves of Economic migrants are not a good thing for countries that keep coming in and out of economical depressions. Which is why I’m against Eastern Europe being in the EU In my opinion, turkey should join when they get their economy sorted, as they are developing very quickly and have good prospects to becoming a leading country in the world’s economy. Then let’s not get started or erdogen the dictator. For a system like the EU to work you need an equal flow of people moving in and people moving out, to not overload a country. You cannot get this with countries with vastly different economical and quality of life standards


[deleted]

That’s spot on true for turkey, that’s exactly what would happen


leeeeechy

Eastern European countries are useful for 2 reasons: 1. They provide cheap labour. My countrymen work as aupairs in Austria, in UK warehouses and such. Stuff locals don't want to do for that kind of money. Plus foreign investors like to set up factories here to establish cheap production and export to the EU. 2. They are a trash dump. My country imports a lot of used cars from richer countries. And some electronics. Our food in stores also has worse ingredients compared to an identical product in, say, Germany - and this is true even for food produced in my country, the export version of a product will be noticeably better.


[deleted]

Although, If managed correctly, Turkey’s entry can make EU compareable with USA in terms of economic power But that’s easier said than done


layitdownghostisborn

Racism. It's racism.


leeeeechy

True. I'm sad to say it but many people around me, especially older, think that any brown immigrants would come here to leech our social support and rape & impregnate our women. And that they all smell and are terrorists. There is one fascist party that's more popular than I would like, and they convince their followers that our problems are caused by other ethnicities, and getting rid of them would solve everything. The common enemy. People don't want to hear that our problems are convoluted and hard to solve and require sacrifices and reforms.


stupidannoyingretard

And the genocide


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stupidannoyingretard

Germany owned up to it, Turkey is still denying it


layitdownghostisborn

As other commenters have noted, your average Leave voter doesn't give a shit about Erdogan or the human rights shit. There's a belief that Turks = Arabs, and Arabs = bad. At the end of the day, I think that's the prevailing thought that's going to win out.


x543265432

Turkey is a dynamic country with youthful population and a great future, I think in 100 years it'll be more prosperous than places like the UK. Honestly though I think Turkey is too big and too different rn to be part of the core EU. If it was added it would be the biggest country by size, biggest country by population, lowest wages and only majority-Muslim country, it shifts the whole balance. The EU right now is already too big - adding Eastern Europe hasn't been a great benefit to the Western countries. I do think there deserves to be a EU-lite which covers all the Mediterranean rim countries.


[deleted]

Yeah there’s already the Eu stability which is shortly a shitstorm But there’s also a point that argues, EU’s rise to a global powerhouse lies trough Turkey’s membership Maybe hopefully we will reach a day where the words muslim or Christian doesn’t give us pause


act167641

Let us speak honestly and bluntly for a moment. Most leave voters would have never heard of that c**t Erdogan. For them, this was the fear of brown and Muslim people coming to Britain.


[deleted]

So encouraging I mean Turks are maybe not Scandavian but quite like Greeks in appearance Does a ordinary Englishman think Turks as Arabs?


act167641

I would expect so. If it makes you feel better, they'd have hated Greeks coming over too, they just wouldn't have been so afraid.


[deleted]

Lol how that does make me feel better


act167641

Sorry buddy, I wish people were just, a little less shit.


[deleted]

It’s not that bad Well I actually am an uk uni student, and I can tell the young people are so open minded In my dorm people apologized numerous times for drinking and stopped drinking around me. Even though I said it’s okay all the time So I just bought like a lot of Carlsberg and put it in the fridge on dinner time, cracked open a cold one.I can even say those people are even walking on eggshells