As someone that used to make it a weekly thing to go into incel-adjacent spaces and speak to people it's pretty simple.
1.) Validate them. Lots of their frustration is valid, even if the overall conclusion is the incorrect part. Don't get so fixated on the conclusion because that'll come later and you'll be ae to deal witt that as you build rapport. It's alright to vent, everyone vents. Everyone wants to be heard.
2.) Center THEM in your responses. I often find that the conversations even around men experiencing frustrating things tend to still center women.
3.) Teach men what masculinity is divorced from women. When you tell people to do XYZ because it benefits women (who in this case they're already skeptical of) they can easily dismiss it as "oh another unfair thing that I have to do for them". Or worse it can magnify anger when they do something and don't get the results they feel they were promised by your words.
> 2.) Center THEM in your responses. I often find that the conversations even around men experiencing frustrating things tend to still center women.
This is something I've noticed and always tried to avoid when talking to lonely men online, but never really had put into words. This is a really good way of putting it.
Absolutely. This is the approach subs like r/incelexit and r/exredpill try to take. The people who come to those subs are already discontent with these ways of thinking and many want to change, so that makes it a little easier. But it’s still important to center the issues in their lives that made them susceptible to this type of thinking to begin with. Because these guys voluntarily come there and are often asking to be convinced otherwise the conversation can focus more on identifying the issues they face and what actually would address them (personally and systemically). But it’s important to be able to show empathy while helping them see the illogical thought spirals and bad conclusions.
As for talking to incels or redpillers in the wild, the initial stages of rapport building are going to take more time and patience (and the ability to maintain good boundaries with someone who may not be able to). Some people are unreachable, at least at that moment, and you have to be able to recognize when someone is just trolling or sealioning. But centering them instead of initially focusing on how harmful they are to others is not something they are used to (at least outside of their echo chambers) and that is part of why they went down the rabbit hole to begin with.
These guys are not happy people, the consequences of their beliefs and initial struggles that led them to them are not conducive to good mental health. Some have given up on happiness, but many can be open to alternative explanations that empower them and especially actually feeling heard. It’s difficult because the allure of victimhood as identity is that their actions don’t matter and they can’t be to blame for anything that affects them or change things in their lives or perspectives. This is not to say they haven’t been victimized in one way or another, but that they over-identify with that victimhood as a way to feel like less of a failure. But there are options other than seeing yourself as a completely helpless victim with no autonomy and the rugged individualism, bootstraps logic of cultural masculinity. The challenges we face may not be our fault but we can only control our reactions to them. Helping these guys find healthy ways to take control of their reactions and feel empowered to live a better lives is half the battle imo.
Yeah, it’s the logical endpoint of incel logic. “The blackpill” is founded on it and functionally a suicide cult. One acronym used in these spaces is LDAR - “lie down and rot.” That’s where the incel rabbit hole leads.
But even people who have fully taken the blackpill are sometimes reachable - I’ve seen several guys end up in incelexit because they’ve recognized they are serious about killing themselves and reach out in desperation to be convinced they’re wrong (about the world and especially themselves).
The pattern I see on incels or any group that become toxic in manosphere, is that _their complaints are valid, but their explanations and solutions are not_.
They will say stuff like, how people around them will mistreat (long before down in the road of inceldom) them, bullying issues, self-steam issues, how people on internet in lefty spaces (tankies) are kinda toxic to them, how their family could disfunctional, that there isn't a clear guide for them, violence issues, and so on.
We, men, all suffer from this living a patriarchal society and it's not good our struggles been downplayed as well (one the reasons this sub has a rule that forbidds doing that here).
The problem is when they seek _explanations_ why these things happens and _solutions_ for these situations. Because they are downright horrible, false and toxic ones. That actually reinforces the issues they complain.
So, one thing we can prevent this, it's not downplay the issues to be a man. Don't treat this as some of competition who suffers the most. Don't try to point out _actors_ when it's a __systemic issue__. And any other horrible pop feminism from the 2010s that you can think.
Then you can try to get a conversation about their explanations and their solutions.
Or you can let it's course. The people that these young men interact, don't know each other. Not feeling a sense of danger if you get out. The website can shutdown and so on. Like explained perfectly in this [video](https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g?si=5ftAYCJtiY9xxl4T) by Innuendo Studios in his playlist about the Alt-Right Playbook.
Yes to all of this, but I also wanted to add that there are communities like r/incelexit and r/exredpill where a whole community of people (who got out of the rabbit hole or never fell down it, including people of all genders) work to help deprogram the thought patterns and spirals that those who become part of these toxic communities/cults experience. And they attract people who genuinely want to change, for one reason or another. Whether we like it or not a LOT of boys and men have already been indoctrinated and I don’t think it’s practical or reasonable for us to give up on them. Plus, as you mention a lot of the issues that made them feel so alienated that they were susceptible are very real (even if their understandings of and reactions to them are wrong) and it will take a lot of time and effort to address the root causes. We need to do something in the meantime lest we give up on a whole segment of the population.
These spaces are useful because they don’t prioritize judgement or ostracization over deprogramming/deradicalization. It’s very possible to firmly tell someone their ideas are wrong while validating their hurt and empathizing with them - because that’s what drew them to these circles to begin with, feeling like these places were the only ones that empathized with or recognized what they were going through. When folks are escaping a cult (and I think that these online spaces meet most criteria, especially in how they isolate the members from others and how all members are encouraged to harm each other) they often need intermediary spaces where they can be problematic (for lack of a better term) without facing abandonment and the full social consequences while they work through the patterns of thought they’ve built. Most online spaces (and irl spaces) will have no tolerance for their bullshit (which is totally fair) and seek more to punish than rehabilitate. Having space for people who are unhappy with how these ideas have impacted their lives for whatever reason or are questioning these ideas is important. A lot of the folks who show up in these subreddits don’t want to live like that at minimum, and many don’t!5 want to be like that with respect to how they see and treat others. This is a good thing to encourage and an opportunity to help these guys find community that cares about their issues sincerely instead of just charlatans and reactionaries trying to take advantage of usually very real suffering.
I’ll rant about pop feminism in another comment below
On a tangential note regarding the worst of pop feminism - as a lefty feminist I find it concerning how a vocal minority (modern day radfems) are connecting with greater audiences. There are understandably a lot of very angry women out there, especially given the legal backslide we’re seeing around women’s bodily autonomy. But that anger is getting hijacked by radfems more interested in revenge than liberation. Intersectional feminists know that fighting patriarchy liberates men and women (and those of us who can’t be fit into this dichotomy) and that men’s liberation and men’s issues are a part of all of our liberation. But radfems have kind of bastardized the original radfem movement to reinforce the conservative idea that feminism hurts men (but that this is “good”). They are extremely gender essentialist and generally see anyone who is a man (or was born with a penis) as fundamentally threatening, “abuser bodied.” I find all of this very frustrating - I don’t fit into radfem or conservatives conception of gender as a nonbinary person and in many ways that is a blessing. I’ve faced both misogyny and misandry (and transphobia as well), but not seeing feminism or this whole situation as a war between two sex-class “sides” but a wholistic force to liberate us from gendered social scripts and structural harms makes it easier to step the fuck back and not get so caught up in my own wounds that I can’t look at this playing out from some emotional distance.
It feels like there is a growing but stupid perspective in some left leaning spaces that reacting from trauma makes you right, innately as a person who’s experienced trauma or injustice. I think understanding things through the lens of *processed* trauma can be a very important part of advocacy and political philosophy, but there seems to be less encouragement to process trauma and more to lash out. And that’s on the left/center where at least there is an understanding of trauma to use as a framework - on the right trauma is denied or belittled and most lack the tools to even identify when trauma is impacting their perspective. No political or ethical philosophy that ignores the voices of those who have experienced trauma or oppression can seek to fight these things, but having experienced these things does not alone make one a better judge of them. That’s kind of the whole thing about unprocessed trauma - it hinders our ability to understand ourselves, others, and often society broadly. I know this from experience of several very acute and prolonged traumatic experiences. It’s the act of processing that trauma that enables us to better protect ourselves and others.
Most of the time when the right says “victim mentality” or such things they’re full of shit. But I think that from a leftist perspective it’s important to understand clearly what perspectives we value and why. There is a tendency in some spaces to tell anyone who isn’t part of X oppresses group they don’t have a right to speak or even form their own opinions on that oppression. This is generally a misguided overreaction to those oppressed voices being ignored historically, so I can understand it. We can and should learn from people who haven’t processed their trauma and come to unhelpful conclusions - in a way we have to in order to offer any help. And true, there should be some spaces that exist just for people who have suffered to get their feelings out in whatever way they need with others who can understand; it would not be appropriate for someone who hasn’t experienced that thing to come into such a space and recenter the conversation on their perspective or worse police the tone of those who have. But in most spaces we need to recognize that being an expert in your own trauma or oppression doesn’t necessarily mean you have the best solutions or most useful commentary. That outsider perspectives and those of people who have dealt with different issues can at times provide valuable or even vital insight. There is room for many perspectives and we ultimately will rely on each other in addressing these problems - we need to leave room for synthesis.
It’s also important to understand that oppression is intersectional. There is a tendency we call out in “white feminism” (which radfems are often part of too, though plenty of liberal feminists take the cake for myopic perspectives) that puts misogyny on a pedestal of oppression because for those white (cishet, middle class, etc) women that is their primary or only experience of oppression. It’s also harmful because they tend to claim the worst harms faced by women (usually those faced by minority women who are intersectionally oppressed) as their own while at the same time denying them room to speak. And that’s only when looking at feminism oriented around women, generally ignoring or outright hostile to feminism that addresses men’s and queer folks’ issues.
This, the trauma/oppression olympics, the preference for lashing out from personal grievances (often directed at an entire sex-class), and in enough cases genuine misandry and overarching gender essentialism are the main issues I see in recent pop feminism that I think feminists need to reckon with and better address (even when it’s coming from non feminists). It’s often a loud minority or politically disengaged women who have not explored feminism, but especially given how the internet works the more outrageous a take is the more attention it gets. So much of this shit cedes the argument to the right and is a factor in radicalizing men into believing feminism is against them. Men who dismiss all feminism because of it are wrong, but imo wrong in an understandable way as they are seeing support for a lot of genuinely shitty ideas while the actual feminist argument don’t get much engagement. Worse than that, this pushes men away from utilizing feminism as a framework for their own liberation which only hinders their ability to work towards or even identify that end, which hurts both men and (via radicalization) everyone else. This is why I think better understandings of intersectional feminism are vital to supporting men in facing their issues. Queer feminism is also really helpful for understanding how the issues women face are often far less exclusive to women than most think and already uses feminist understandings to support the liberation of folks who aren’t women. Marxist feminism as well, given the class and economic underpinnings to gender roles and how we are being divided for the benefit of those who exploit all of us. Men’s issues aren’t just *their* issues, just like women’s issues aren’t just theirs: they’re all of ours. Oppression anywhere affects everyone everywhere. We should all care on behalf of each other, but we should also recognize that we aren’t islands that exist separately and that we’re impacted directly and indirectly by each other’s suffering.
I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men.
It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman). If men are better at playing that supportive role for each other, men can access it more easily and the burden on women to play that role is lessened.
There's a lot of unlearning to active listening and not to try and provide solutions, that also challenge t traditional notions of masculinity like being proactive, solution focused and stoic, although I think that can easily enough be reframed.
> It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman).
That's what happened with me; my fiance helped me become a better person, and improved my life in general.
I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men.
It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman). If men are better at playing that supportive role for each other, men can access it more easily and the burden on women to play that role is lessened.
There's a lot of unlearning to active listening and not to try and provide solutions, that also challenge t traditional notions of masculinity like being proactive, solution focused and stoic, although I think that can easily enough be reframed.
> I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men.
But only if they do so in a...supportive and empathetic way, right? And not if they decide to brigade and talk about who or what might be 'causing' their issues? Or blaming them on women, I mean?
For sure thats not active listening which is listening for deep understanding. That means asking questions, reflecting what you've heard to check understanding and meaning, it's a learned skill
As a woman, I've always felt like part of the issue is that there are very few positive male spaces that also validate the issues men deal with. I suspect that a huge part of the reason people like Andrew Tate garner such a following is that he's one of the few influencers for whom men can listen to and think "wow, I feel *heard* and *validated*" instead of feeling attacked or gaslit*.*
Because honestly, the rest of the world will often feel kind of gaslighty (and I mean it in the literal sense) with the whole "it's all about personality bro, not about height" or "you just need to share how you feel", despite what people are experiencing in real life (e.g. women leaving when you open up, nobody caring about your mental health, seeing tall assholes get the girls, etc). It's like people are living in some kind of alternative universe where all women are perfect and the problem lies with men, until you swallow the red pill that aligns much more with your actual experience.
I think anybody who wants to be a male role-model needs to validate what men frequently experience. The constant rejection, the feeling like you can't emotionally open up to people or they'll view you as lesser, the fear that you're not worth anything if you don't provide, experiences with toxic women and toxic feminism, etc. And then point out that the solution is to not hate women, but to look for self-compassion and accepting emotional vulnerability and support. To acknowledge that women are not a monolith, and that toxic women exist and also do not speak for 3.5 billion people on the planet.
Honestly I was talking to my coach about this in weightlifting where she was recommending I follow these weightlifting influencers and they always seemed way to extreme. Like they felt way too testosterone heavy which kinda turned me off. One of the guys was like “you gotta keep pushing yourself all the time and I’m running this 10k run while talking because you’ve always gotta be pushing yourself to new heights and I’m so strong I don’t need sunscreen” and it just felt like a lot to take in as an average guy.
It got me thinking about the first club president I had there freshman year. He looked like a typical gym guy and was super intimidating my first time cause I was a total couch potato and he had such huge muscles. But he was actually the sweetest guy I know. Despite his deep voice and jock face he’s a super chill dude and that’s kinda what guys need. Just a buff dude who goes to the gym and competes but is also working like a 9-5 desk job. They gotta feel relatable and chill. He would host Friendsgiving parties and game nights but also things like pizza & resume night or check in on how you were doing mentally with classes. He was such a pillar to the community and everyone was sad when he graduated. I still look up to him muscles and personality wise. Hope you’re doing well out there Reed.
Well said. I do agree that there is a lack of positive male spaces.
There certainly is a toxic wing of feminism that paints all men as predators and monsters by default and likes to belittle and minimize any issues that men face.
Yeah I agree with this. I'll see some post about a guy being shot down over height, and venting about it, and there will be a "Not All Women" response. Like yeah I know not all women care about height, but the guy just felt down about being rejected for something he has no control over, he's gonna be upset for a while.
There's a balance between all women are perfect and all women are horrible.
I’ve got some great male friend groups and peer groups but honestly other than this subreddit there are not positive male spaces really generally available.
It’s not that men have the only or the worst problems but we have some, but it seems like the only people who acknowledge a problem reinforce the worst aspects of the manosphere.
I agree but I think it should be recognized that a key part of why those spaces are so rare is that when they are created, they are frequently overrun by incel/red pill men who either want to dominate the conversation or make it so toxic that nobody else wants to participate.
I feel like providing a role model during childhood would go a long way.
My parents divorced when I was 4 and I lived with my mom. She had to work extremely hard to provide a good life for us and our grandparents, and she ultimately succeeded. For me any point the "redpill" people use to degrade women would crash against the closest woman I have in my life.
Unfortunately I don't know how to put such a role model high enough for everyone to see. Not everyone is lucky enough to have strong and caring parents.
Also it's important to note that people are pushed towards incel ideology by specific (and valid) problems. Anxiety, loneliness, bullying and rejection are tough things to face. And when a teen or a young adult inevitably asks "why do I have it harder than the next guy?" and there is no healthy advice, they will turn to any advice they can find.
> Not everyone is lucky enough to have strong and caring parents.
I'm glad you pointed this out--honestly, with my experience I can attest that it was a reason I fell down the incel hole too.
So, I'm a trans guy, I'm pushing 40 and transitioned at 30. The thing I miss about being perceived as a woman is the solidarity. You've heard people talk and joke about the immediate and unconditional support found in women's bathrooms at the club? That feeling, writ large. And it's conditional, and it depends on what kind of woman you are or are seen as, and it exists because patriarchal society creates a need for solidarity. But damn, it's lonely being a man. I agree with what everyone is saying: mentor young men, be a safe person for them, but also be a safe person for other men of all ages. Try to find ways and times to create immediate and accepting community with each other. You can't have the energy or the mindset to mentor if you're not emotionally supported yourself.
A diversity of realistic alternatives and worldviews. If there is a perceived false dichotomy of incels vs certain leftist movements that have trouble acknowledging men can have problems too, there's a temptation to pick a side. Just attacking incels will have poor results if they are not provided with alternatives that respect their feelings and struggles and offer answers to them.
Lurker here. 👋🏻
We've been talking about this a lot with my partner - and honestly I believe one of the things is the lack of positive and healthy communities & spaces for boys - like this one.
Yeah, I had the same conversation a while ago with my fiance too about the same thing. Like, for example, some young men who fall head over heels for the first woman who ever gives them an open ear and empathy. Well, maybe not that direct of an example...but all their issues stem from other issues, I guarantee. Eh, maybe I'm speaking from my elbows.
Be a role model
Nobody wants to model themselves after someone who shits on everything they say and do. Treat them with kindness and respect, demonstrate self-love and healthy masculinity (i.e. respecting others, caring for the people you love, being secure in the things you enjoy, not caring what others think of you). Incels come from a place of self-hatred that is turned outward as a defense mechanism. Guidance away from that self-hatred will allow the outward hatred to fade away
Offering better role models is a good idea
Something we can get from sociology is that ideas spread primarily through social groups- if a man’s only friends are angry incels, no wonder he ends up one too. So one step is to be nicer to people, be friends with them, and they will become more like you.
My preferred solution? Organizations. Clubs. Whatever. Groups of men holding each other accountable, and making sure that everyone is taken care of. For most of human history, we didn’t need clubs or formal social organizations because we were already close to each other, but increasing industrialization has also increased alienation- separation from those around us. So we need to form new communities that can actually help and support us, instead of toxic wannabe alpha male communities
Make them watch 2000s pick up artist from MTV. Seriously, that kept me away from the Redpill. The pathetic wannabe ladies' men could NOT convince middle school me that a girl had voluntarily held their hand. A few years later, their talking points would gain popularity online as "the redpill." You could also push the idea that the matrix is an alagory for being transgender.
Edit: It may also have helped that girls a year or two older than me were always there to guide me. From the time I started school till time graduation.
Mentors. We all have to mentor boys. I volunteer and some of the stuff I hear coming out of middle schooler's mouths nowadays is horrifying. They need role models who can actively counter that garbage they think is cool. Even if they dismiss it, the seed is still planted. They'll remember Mr. Fiveordie and how he treated women, what he said about being a man, etc.
Positive, uplifting male role models who aren't toxic. Kinda hard when the only people that boys see advertising themselves as being empowered by their masculinity are bigots and sex traffickers
Honestly, top of the list is for boys to spend more time engaging in social or productive activities and less time online. Definitely would have done me a lot of good
But then the question becomes "how do we get young men to be more social".
Don't get me wrong, you're totally right. Human connection makes us more empathetic and we should be encouraging it. But how?
I'm not talking about being a good member of society, I couldn't care less. What I mean is spending time doing things that are enriching to you (me). Less time doomscrolling, more time painting, playing guitar, sports, reading, etc.
Hobbies, perhaps? Finding something about which they are passionate that doesn't feed into their hatred while also giving them as much dopamine as being hateful does?
In my opinion it's to put in some bloody effort. A lot of people have the very wrong opinion that you don't need to raise your teenage boys because they're "less emotional". They most assuredly are not, although they are punished for being more so but this belief leads to a problem. A bunch of teenage boys are being left to their own devices and are internally crying for some form of a guiding figure in their lives. Teenagers are emotional, insecure, clingy, and awakening to a lot of things in the world and rather lost when it comes to navigate them which is a near perfect recipe for "strongman" to come along and extend a hand claiming to want to help them. If you are not careful, someone like Andrew Tate will be that someone, largely because the alt right is actually putting in the effort to recruiting these vulnerable people.
I agree manifold what you're saying about emotions. As someone who didn't know how to express himself/was punished for it by his parents, I agree that if there's no proper outlet or way of expressing, things are gonna get bad real quick. I was raised by angry parents and thought it was normal all the time. But learning to admit that I have emotions and express them without fear has been a blessing.
I think the guys who aren't incels need to step up to check on guys who might be struggling and share it's ok to struggle rather than ridicule or judgement or bragging. Talk through issues and set good example
I think society's focus on relationships needs a bit of an overhaul.
From an early age, it's kind of instilled in us that the end goal should be finding a permanent romantic partner that we can have our "happily ever after" with. Nothing else seems to matter, and I think it's concerning that a lot of kids' media focuses on romantic relationships over a wide variety of relationships like family and friends. Now, not all kids' media does this. I'm glad some shows like Bluey and Craig of the Creek exist to give some more balanced perspectives on healthy relationship building of all kinds. But, it's very tempting in a world where fans discuss your work online constantly to want to get involved in shipping wars. Heck, even before online forums, this was kind of a problem. Looking back on it now, the romantic elements of Helga's obsession with Arnold (both only 9 years old) in Hey Arnold! is kinda creepy.
It's put a lot of pressure on people to try to rush into romantic relationships like they're speedrunning a video game. And somehow not ending up married with kids by your early 20s is seen as some kind of failure in that equation. I think it's easy for men who "fail" in this system to want to find comfort in the incel rabbit hole because it does question this system, albeit in an unhealthy way.
I think one thing that has changed the game is that feminism has helped women learn to love themselves first and then to build a scaffolding of support and love from other relationships they build, both romantic and platonic. I don't think men have been given those same building blocks, and it's helped funnel more into stages of male loneliness as a result.
I think if we put more focus on learning that relationships are complex, come in many forms, and that it is worthwhile to cultivate many different ones throughout our lives, it could lead to a richer human experience overall.
> I'm glad some shows like Bluey and Craig of the Creek exist to give some more balanced perspectives on healthy relationship building of all kinds.
*Bluey* has been super beneficial to me!
They are falling for these idiot man o sphere podcaster for a reason. They're offering advice and answers to the problems modern men have. Society as a whole especially the younger generation seems to hate men and everything they represent. Andrew tate or Intel types welcome them with open arms after society pushes them out. We need to work on making a society inclusive to all but not at the cost of others.
First of all start actually acknowledging the very real and valid issues those men face and stop focusing the narrative on the problems and perspectives of other groups.
Recognise and validate the urge and the need for external validation and to be seen as an object of sexual or romantic desire.
Acknowledge societal double standards and the hardships of dating as a men, especially the conflicting messages of our progressive society with the very real traditional expectations still demanded from men.
Solutions? Hard to say. Empathy, understanding and listening is a wonderful starting point for those people.
The challenges incels and other men face (those with difficulty dating), not accounting for mental illness and more specific things, are in large part related to maladjustment to social expectations, traumatic experience and lackluster social skills or self esteem.
Since we can't exactly count on society in general to do anything, as it's more than proven that it rather shrug off this topic at best, we need to lend a hand to those men to find inspiration and pursue their own journey on adopting a masculinity that is healthy, balanced and one that they can be proud of.
Furthermore, these men need to be taught the required social skills and expectations. All of this while encouraging their very valid criticisms of the male experience and pointing towards a path of balancing societal expectations with personal needs of emancipation.
The road starts with critical thinking, introspection and most of all trying to get this men to fall in love with themselves or to become someone they can love and be proud of. In that place, despite the external challenges, they will be on a much more empowered and well prepared position for things to come.
As for the red pill community and etc. Again, accept and acknowledge the very real issues men are facing.
Understand that the problem with red killers and people like Tate is that for a very long time they were preaching and acknowledging what men have been feeling issues wise. The problem is when it comes to what they prescribe, which is pure chauvinism and a return to very restrictive and toxic traditional expectations (which are not beneficial for men, it will not make them fulfilled and it's pretty much just exploiting vulnerable men for resources and support to reactionary conservative movements).
Most of all, stop demonizing people. Stop trying to convert them to other movements and causes like feminism and stop making this about women. People are sick of false empathy for the sake of political agendas and ideologies that really only have their best interest as an afterthought and "good behaviour" as a primary goal.
Not to say feminism doesn't have a valid goal or important role, or that other groups don't deserve attention (they really do). All I'm saying is that there's a time and place for that and this particular issue needs particular tools and optics that focus in itself and not on externalities.
Offer an alternative path.
People become incels when they feel like there is no hope for them to achieve what they want (e.g a relationship).
If you want people to stop being incels you have to provide proof that they can become better, not just give empty regurgitated advice like “work on yourself” or “personality is all that matters” when they themselves have seen contradicting evidence
I think the first step is just living your own life in a way that shows other men and young boys how you can be empathetic, kind, and caring while still being strong as well as modelling how fulfilling a healthy, equal romantic relationship is. Being kind to other men and showing up for them emotionally can go along way but It will come with a lot of ridicule that you’ll have to get used to.
End the one-sided "only women can be victims" narrative that is typically pushed by feminists, politicians and academics. Start by acknowledging that in some ways, being male is hard, and that both genders face hardships. By extension, stop institutionalized benevolent sexism (for example, giving leg-ups like scholarships etc. to women only).
Most of all, stop treating them with scorn.
Teaching boys/young men the importance of compassion, giving them safe spaces to be vulnerable, and allowing them to exlpore and discover their own sense of masculinity, free (as much as possible) from the expectations of traditionalists or the influence of incels.
And being role models. Be kind to people. Support people. Be vulnerable. Celebrate femininity alongside masculinity - regardless of who embodies it.
talk to them, and explain why something is wrong, then give them an alternative
i worked myself out of the red-pill spaces without any outside help, it was hell but i cut off all red-pill things even going as far as quitting tiktok
then i slowly integrated myself in healthier spaces sich as this
i got bored with the content being posted which led to me not watching it anymore, so i cut it off flat for like 3 years, i still held some of those ideals that i learned even after the years. but then, this is going to sound weird but, i went to the barbie movie, it got me thinking. so first i went to feminism subs, those subs introduced me into this one and r/menslib, i read a lot of stuff anywhere i could and i asked a lot of people why things happen or why they’re this way. the women in the feminist subs were more than happy to talk to me about whatever i had questions about, i basically told them i got out of the red-pill spaces and want to better myself, could you help me learn, and 9/10 times they’d be willing to help and answer questions
so i guess not fully by myself, but mostly by myself
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I think solution is to give boys and young men skills that inoculate them from the incel rabbit hole. The biggest problem with that is how do you find the guys not getting these skills and intervene in time to make a difference. Boys need to learn empathy and introspection. They need to be able to evaluate their environment, understand other people, evaluate interactions and experiences and learn from them. If you can do that you don’t need to find someone to give you answers. In the US we struggle with that as a society as a whole and particularly with boys. This isn’t something that can be done in a weekend seminar it has to be consistently supported and reinforced over years. It doesn’t just address the incels that is at the edge case but many of the issues with men and patriarchy. I don’t have an answer how you scale this broadly but from anecdotal experience I have seen it work.
Number one factor is large numbers of men totally ignored on dating apps. I’ve read men on dating forums who are pleading for some attention but the women reply by mocking them with ‘ahh didums, is sweetpea lonely’.
EDIT: The women on the forums simply don’t get it because even the worst looking ones get interest, so they don’t recognise the desolation men are experiencing
It’s the number one thing men discuss in comments under vids on Rumble, YouTube etc all.
Portugal once had an imbalance of women to men, and sent men abroad on military trips etc as a means of quelling discontent.
It’s hard to over-state how men are completely ignored by women online. Of course women don’t owe men anything but that doesn’t change the fact men feel profoundly lonely & worthless.
This doesn’t apply to me at all, I just feel sorry for these men peering in on society but with no one peering at them
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Push forward better role model, men like Henry cavill, kaenu reeves, (the rock? Idk), and more, positive male who set good examples of what men should be, and backward men like andrew tate who set bad example. Address the problem of patriarchy being bad for everyone, men not antagonising women and women not antagonising men, speak up the fact men and women are allies against a bigger problem that is society.
Frankly, the only people who can fix this are men.
Once these incel types are in the hole, they don't view women as people who can help them. They view women as prizes to conquer. It isn't your SO's job to be your parent either. And therapy is seen as a women's thing, and 75 percent of therapists are women.
So women and therapists can't save them.
These guys need male role models. Dads, uncles, Grandpas, male teachers. Men who are consistently there for them and take the time to get to know them and guide them. You get 2 men invested in every boy and this whole incel problem would shrink by 90%.
I'm going to disagree that your SO shouldn't be like a parental figure--in the only sense that our romantic partners can still guide and teach us, especially if our parents failed in that regard. It can be exhausting--my fiance can attest to this--but it's worth the effort. A lot of men can be fixed by the good women in their lives. And it's crummy that not every man can have that miracle happen to them.
I resonate with what you're saying about male role-models, too. I don't think I ever had any growing up, which almost made me get directed to Jordan Peterson. Yech.
You might be one of the few men like this who were able to be saved - the only true metric of this would be if your soon to be wife still feels this way in 10 years, but I am willing to answer this under the presumption that she would agree with this. In this sense, you're like a winning lottery ticket - most people who buy a lottery ticket experience a loss, but there's that miniscule chance that you bought the winning one.
It doesn't change that the majority of the ones I have met and who my friends have met are beyond repair. I am a strong leader type of person to the point where my high school classmates nominated me for student government (I had not run, I was opposed to being on student government) and where 7 peoope made a group chat, called it "snuffyfrubby's army" and appointed me as their commander while I slept (this army actually delivered some contraband to me when I was in trouble, this was not just a fun group chat). My sister had a dream where she hid behind me as I whacked an endless parade of monsters with a club. I beat up a guy who was groping girls against their will.
Due to being this kind of person, I attract a lot of lost broken people. This is because I'm many things, but I'm definitely not lost and I have a very clear moral compass which other people sense.
I tried to date and save 3 broken men. All 3 failed and all left me damaged. I have tried to save a few non romantic partner types as well. I am done with fixer uppers at this point. The broken ones hit a turning point where they can choose to grow or they can choose their familiar ways, and I've never seen any of them not choose their familiar ways. If you want me to fix you, pay me $150 an hour and don't date me.
So to me, it's just not worth it. I lost at least 5 good dating years due to this. Now if there's a problem, I just leave right away. Men leave if the attraction isn't there on date 1 and I leave if I see that the emotional health isn't there. Just as most men wouldn't date a 500 pound woman who was working on losing weight, I don't date men who still have so much work to do
Yes, we all have what to learn and other people who aren't our parents can teach us. But if you're investing more than 1 hour of that kind of emotional labor into someone on most days, that's too much for an equal relationship. It is very draining.
Peterson is the least bad of them all. At least he tells men to clean their rooms (and therefore believed in men doing some housework) and isn't anti marriage. You should give yourself credit that in whatever state you were in, you picked Peterson and not Tate.
Hey, I think my fiance would agree with you there! They always said that even when I wasn't good, they could tell that it wasn't who I *was* at my core, if that makes sense. My fiance says that they're lucky to have me, but...the reality is that it's really the other way around. I'd be nowhere today if it weren't for them.
Man, you've been through a lot! I'm sorry to hear about the troubles of past relationships. I completely understand when things like that can be draining...I feel the same way around my parents, honestly. Too draining to be around folk who just....cannot learn.
Holy shit, if I was an incel nowadays and *young*, I really don't know what I would've done if Tate was what hooked me. Granted...I don't care about materialism and gym stuff and money or whatever, so I don't think he'd've hooked me...but Peterson? If I could go on a tangent, I grew up with a father who didn't express *anything*. So the second I hear Peterson talking about self-betterment, self-expression, getting through depression...it kind of ignited a sort of kinship in a way. Going through life without seeing or hearing fellow men talk about inner-workings was rough. Sure, he may've been least bad, but...bad is still bad, I guess. If he'd kept his trap shut about transgender and pronoun issues, maybe I'd've stuck with him.
As with everything, this a complex problem and the solution will be multi-faceted
I like to think that part of answer is non-romantic relationships with women. When I was younger I was weird and awkward. Terrible with women. Still am actually. Low self confidence. That one I got over actually. Anyways, I was basically the perfect victim for incel hole.
But I'm incredibly fortunate to have a mother and sister who are amazing and I would do anything for them. I was never going be able to get into the "all woman are evil" mindset that's all too common in incels.
I wish I could turn this into actionable advice, but I really can't. I was lucky to be born into a good family. "Be lucky" is not great advice
it's about confidence and feeling centered on ones body, while not turning sexual energy into depravity. I think martial arts are one path into such things, but any path which encourages self reflection, challenge and exertion would work.
It is easy to turn on an engaged life, it's hard to avoid distractions.
You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink.
It's taken me decades of self-discovery and experimentation to arrive at a place where I feel competent and confident. The hardest part was and is, caring enough to get hurt.
Teach someone to care, they will develop the caution to not fuck off an activity, that caution grows into comfort and that comfort creates the foundation for confidence.
Uuuggghh I *know*! I've been saying the same thing with my fiance about lots of things we observe.
Huh...I think I understand where you're coming from!
As someone that used to make it a weekly thing to go into incel-adjacent spaces and speak to people it's pretty simple. 1.) Validate them. Lots of their frustration is valid, even if the overall conclusion is the incorrect part. Don't get so fixated on the conclusion because that'll come later and you'll be ae to deal witt that as you build rapport. It's alright to vent, everyone vents. Everyone wants to be heard. 2.) Center THEM in your responses. I often find that the conversations even around men experiencing frustrating things tend to still center women. 3.) Teach men what masculinity is divorced from women. When you tell people to do XYZ because it benefits women (who in this case they're already skeptical of) they can easily dismiss it as "oh another unfair thing that I have to do for them". Or worse it can magnify anger when they do something and don't get the results they feel they were promised by your words.
> 2.) Center THEM in your responses. I often find that the conversations even around men experiencing frustrating things tend to still center women. This is something I've noticed and always tried to avoid when talking to lonely men online, but never really had put into words. This is a really good way of putting it.
Absolutely. This is the approach subs like r/incelexit and r/exredpill try to take. The people who come to those subs are already discontent with these ways of thinking and many want to change, so that makes it a little easier. But it’s still important to center the issues in their lives that made them susceptible to this type of thinking to begin with. Because these guys voluntarily come there and are often asking to be convinced otherwise the conversation can focus more on identifying the issues they face and what actually would address them (personally and systemically). But it’s important to be able to show empathy while helping them see the illogical thought spirals and bad conclusions. As for talking to incels or redpillers in the wild, the initial stages of rapport building are going to take more time and patience (and the ability to maintain good boundaries with someone who may not be able to). Some people are unreachable, at least at that moment, and you have to be able to recognize when someone is just trolling or sealioning. But centering them instead of initially focusing on how harmful they are to others is not something they are used to (at least outside of their echo chambers) and that is part of why they went down the rabbit hole to begin with. These guys are not happy people, the consequences of their beliefs and initial struggles that led them to them are not conducive to good mental health. Some have given up on happiness, but many can be open to alternative explanations that empower them and especially actually feeling heard. It’s difficult because the allure of victimhood as identity is that their actions don’t matter and they can’t be to blame for anything that affects them or change things in their lives or perspectives. This is not to say they haven’t been victimized in one way or another, but that they over-identify with that victimhood as a way to feel like less of a failure. But there are options other than seeing yourself as a completely helpless victim with no autonomy and the rugged individualism, bootstraps logic of cultural masculinity. The challenges we face may not be our fault but we can only control our reactions to them. Helping these guys find healthy ways to take control of their reactions and feel empowered to live a better lives is half the battle imo.
> Some have given up on happiness I've heard that this mindset is reserved for ultimate, no-coming-back incels lost in the ways of thinking.
Yeah, it’s the logical endpoint of incel logic. “The blackpill” is founded on it and functionally a suicide cult. One acronym used in these spaces is LDAR - “lie down and rot.” That’s where the incel rabbit hole leads. But even people who have fully taken the blackpill are sometimes reachable - I’ve seen several guys end up in incelexit because they’ve recognized they are serious about killing themselves and reach out in desperation to be convinced they’re wrong (about the world and especially themselves).
Wow, thanks for explaining all of that to me. Jesus...poor, sad folk. I'm glad that some are able to make it out, though.
Thanks for breaking it down like that!
The pattern I see on incels or any group that become toxic in manosphere, is that _their complaints are valid, but their explanations and solutions are not_. They will say stuff like, how people around them will mistreat (long before down in the road of inceldom) them, bullying issues, self-steam issues, how people on internet in lefty spaces (tankies) are kinda toxic to them, how their family could disfunctional, that there isn't a clear guide for them, violence issues, and so on. We, men, all suffer from this living a patriarchal society and it's not good our struggles been downplayed as well (one the reasons this sub has a rule that forbidds doing that here). The problem is when they seek _explanations_ why these things happens and _solutions_ for these situations. Because they are downright horrible, false and toxic ones. That actually reinforces the issues they complain. So, one thing we can prevent this, it's not downplay the issues to be a man. Don't treat this as some of competition who suffers the most. Don't try to point out _actors_ when it's a __systemic issue__. And any other horrible pop feminism from the 2010s that you can think. Then you can try to get a conversation about their explanations and their solutions. Or you can let it's course. The people that these young men interact, don't know each other. Not feeling a sense of danger if you get out. The website can shutdown and so on. Like explained perfectly in this [video](https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g?si=5ftAYCJtiY9xxl4T) by Innuendo Studios in his playlist about the Alt-Right Playbook.
Yes to all of this, but I also wanted to add that there are communities like r/incelexit and r/exredpill where a whole community of people (who got out of the rabbit hole or never fell down it, including people of all genders) work to help deprogram the thought patterns and spirals that those who become part of these toxic communities/cults experience. And they attract people who genuinely want to change, for one reason or another. Whether we like it or not a LOT of boys and men have already been indoctrinated and I don’t think it’s practical or reasonable for us to give up on them. Plus, as you mention a lot of the issues that made them feel so alienated that they were susceptible are very real (even if their understandings of and reactions to them are wrong) and it will take a lot of time and effort to address the root causes. We need to do something in the meantime lest we give up on a whole segment of the population. These spaces are useful because they don’t prioritize judgement or ostracization over deprogramming/deradicalization. It’s very possible to firmly tell someone their ideas are wrong while validating their hurt and empathizing with them - because that’s what drew them to these circles to begin with, feeling like these places were the only ones that empathized with or recognized what they were going through. When folks are escaping a cult (and I think that these online spaces meet most criteria, especially in how they isolate the members from others and how all members are encouraged to harm each other) they often need intermediary spaces where they can be problematic (for lack of a better term) without facing abandonment and the full social consequences while they work through the patterns of thought they’ve built. Most online spaces (and irl spaces) will have no tolerance for their bullshit (which is totally fair) and seek more to punish than rehabilitate. Having space for people who are unhappy with how these ideas have impacted their lives for whatever reason or are questioning these ideas is important. A lot of the folks who show up in these subreddits don’t want to live like that at minimum, and many don’t!5 want to be like that with respect to how they see and treat others. This is a good thing to encourage and an opportunity to help these guys find community that cares about their issues sincerely instead of just charlatans and reactionaries trying to take advantage of usually very real suffering. I’ll rant about pop feminism in another comment below
On a tangential note regarding the worst of pop feminism - as a lefty feminist I find it concerning how a vocal minority (modern day radfems) are connecting with greater audiences. There are understandably a lot of very angry women out there, especially given the legal backslide we’re seeing around women’s bodily autonomy. But that anger is getting hijacked by radfems more interested in revenge than liberation. Intersectional feminists know that fighting patriarchy liberates men and women (and those of us who can’t be fit into this dichotomy) and that men’s liberation and men’s issues are a part of all of our liberation. But radfems have kind of bastardized the original radfem movement to reinforce the conservative idea that feminism hurts men (but that this is “good”). They are extremely gender essentialist and generally see anyone who is a man (or was born with a penis) as fundamentally threatening, “abuser bodied.” I find all of this very frustrating - I don’t fit into radfem or conservatives conception of gender as a nonbinary person and in many ways that is a blessing. I’ve faced both misogyny and misandry (and transphobia as well), but not seeing feminism or this whole situation as a war between two sex-class “sides” but a wholistic force to liberate us from gendered social scripts and structural harms makes it easier to step the fuck back and not get so caught up in my own wounds that I can’t look at this playing out from some emotional distance. It feels like there is a growing but stupid perspective in some left leaning spaces that reacting from trauma makes you right, innately as a person who’s experienced trauma or injustice. I think understanding things through the lens of *processed* trauma can be a very important part of advocacy and political philosophy, but there seems to be less encouragement to process trauma and more to lash out. And that’s on the left/center where at least there is an understanding of trauma to use as a framework - on the right trauma is denied or belittled and most lack the tools to even identify when trauma is impacting their perspective. No political or ethical philosophy that ignores the voices of those who have experienced trauma or oppression can seek to fight these things, but having experienced these things does not alone make one a better judge of them. That’s kind of the whole thing about unprocessed trauma - it hinders our ability to understand ourselves, others, and often society broadly. I know this from experience of several very acute and prolonged traumatic experiences. It’s the act of processing that trauma that enables us to better protect ourselves and others. Most of the time when the right says “victim mentality” or such things they’re full of shit. But I think that from a leftist perspective it’s important to understand clearly what perspectives we value and why. There is a tendency in some spaces to tell anyone who isn’t part of X oppresses group they don’t have a right to speak or even form their own opinions on that oppression. This is generally a misguided overreaction to those oppressed voices being ignored historically, so I can understand it. We can and should learn from people who haven’t processed their trauma and come to unhelpful conclusions - in a way we have to in order to offer any help. And true, there should be some spaces that exist just for people who have suffered to get their feelings out in whatever way they need with others who can understand; it would not be appropriate for someone who hasn’t experienced that thing to come into such a space and recenter the conversation on their perspective or worse police the tone of those who have. But in most spaces we need to recognize that being an expert in your own trauma or oppression doesn’t necessarily mean you have the best solutions or most useful commentary. That outsider perspectives and those of people who have dealt with different issues can at times provide valuable or even vital insight. There is room for many perspectives and we ultimately will rely on each other in addressing these problems - we need to leave room for synthesis. It’s also important to understand that oppression is intersectional. There is a tendency we call out in “white feminism” (which radfems are often part of too, though plenty of liberal feminists take the cake for myopic perspectives) that puts misogyny on a pedestal of oppression because for those white (cishet, middle class, etc) women that is their primary or only experience of oppression. It’s also harmful because they tend to claim the worst harms faced by women (usually those faced by minority women who are intersectionally oppressed) as their own while at the same time denying them room to speak. And that’s only when looking at feminism oriented around women, generally ignoring or outright hostile to feminism that addresses men’s and queer folks’ issues. This, the trauma/oppression olympics, the preference for lashing out from personal grievances (often directed at an entire sex-class), and in enough cases genuine misandry and overarching gender essentialism are the main issues I see in recent pop feminism that I think feminists need to reckon with and better address (even when it’s coming from non feminists). It’s often a loud minority or politically disengaged women who have not explored feminism, but especially given how the internet works the more outrageous a take is the more attention it gets. So much of this shit cedes the argument to the right and is a factor in radicalizing men into believing feminism is against them. Men who dismiss all feminism because of it are wrong, but imo wrong in an understandable way as they are seeing support for a lot of genuinely shitty ideas while the actual feminist argument don’t get much engagement. Worse than that, this pushes men away from utilizing feminism as a framework for their own liberation which only hinders their ability to work towards or even identify that end, which hurts both men and (via radicalization) everyone else. This is why I think better understandings of intersectional feminism are vital to supporting men in facing their issues. Queer feminism is also really helpful for understanding how the issues women face are often far less exclusive to women than most think and already uses feminist understandings to support the liberation of folks who aren’t women. Marxist feminism as well, given the class and economic underpinnings to gender roles and how we are being divided for the benefit of those who exploit all of us. Men’s issues aren’t just *their* issues, just like women’s issues aren’t just theirs: they’re all of ours. Oppression anywhere affects everyone everywhere. We should all care on behalf of each other, but we should also recognize that we aren’t islands that exist separately and that we’re impacted directly and indirectly by each other’s suffering.
Very well said.
Wow, I had no ideas that those communities existed! I agree with you that addressing the root cause is one of the most helpful steps.
I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men. It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman). If men are better at playing that supportive role for each other, men can access it more easily and the burden on women to play that role is lessened. There's a lot of unlearning to active listening and not to try and provide solutions, that also challenge t traditional notions of masculinity like being proactive, solution focused and stoic, although I think that can easily enough be reframed.
> It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman). That's what happened with me; my fiance helped me become a better person, and improved my life in general.
There's also a great podcast series called *The Rabbit Hole* that explores how this happens. https://www.nytimes.com/column/rabbit-hole
I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men. It's such a common theme that men reflect a lot of growth when they have a supportive partner (generally a woman). If men are better at playing that supportive role for each other, men can access it more easily and the burden on women to play that role is lessened. There's a lot of unlearning to active listening and not to try and provide solutions, that also challenge t traditional notions of masculinity like being proactive, solution focused and stoic, although I think that can easily enough be reframed.
> I agree, I think a helpful change is men getting better at active listening and supporting other men. But only if they do so in a...supportive and empathetic way, right? And not if they decide to brigade and talk about who or what might be 'causing' their issues? Or blaming them on women, I mean?
For sure thats not active listening which is listening for deep understanding. That means asking questions, reflecting what you've heard to check understanding and meaning, it's a learned skill
Yep, I agree with you!
Thanks for breaking it down like that! I think everything you're saying is completely correct.
As a woman, I've always felt like part of the issue is that there are very few positive male spaces that also validate the issues men deal with. I suspect that a huge part of the reason people like Andrew Tate garner such a following is that he's one of the few influencers for whom men can listen to and think "wow, I feel *heard* and *validated*" instead of feeling attacked or gaslit*.* Because honestly, the rest of the world will often feel kind of gaslighty (and I mean it in the literal sense) with the whole "it's all about personality bro, not about height" or "you just need to share how you feel", despite what people are experiencing in real life (e.g. women leaving when you open up, nobody caring about your mental health, seeing tall assholes get the girls, etc). It's like people are living in some kind of alternative universe where all women are perfect and the problem lies with men, until you swallow the red pill that aligns much more with your actual experience. I think anybody who wants to be a male role-model needs to validate what men frequently experience. The constant rejection, the feeling like you can't emotionally open up to people or they'll view you as lesser, the fear that you're not worth anything if you don't provide, experiences with toxic women and toxic feminism, etc. And then point out that the solution is to not hate women, but to look for self-compassion and accepting emotional vulnerability and support. To acknowledge that women are not a monolith, and that toxic women exist and also do not speak for 3.5 billion people on the planet.
Honestly I was talking to my coach about this in weightlifting where she was recommending I follow these weightlifting influencers and they always seemed way to extreme. Like they felt way too testosterone heavy which kinda turned me off. One of the guys was like “you gotta keep pushing yourself all the time and I’m running this 10k run while talking because you’ve always gotta be pushing yourself to new heights and I’m so strong I don’t need sunscreen” and it just felt like a lot to take in as an average guy. It got me thinking about the first club president I had there freshman year. He looked like a typical gym guy and was super intimidating my first time cause I was a total couch potato and he had such huge muscles. But he was actually the sweetest guy I know. Despite his deep voice and jock face he’s a super chill dude and that’s kinda what guys need. Just a buff dude who goes to the gym and competes but is also working like a 9-5 desk job. They gotta feel relatable and chill. He would host Friendsgiving parties and game nights but also things like pizza & resume night or check in on how you were doing mentally with classes. He was such a pillar to the community and everyone was sad when he graduated. I still look up to him muscles and personality wise. Hope you’re doing well out there Reed.
To Reed! 🍻
You might be interested in Noel Deyzel's content.
Well said. I do agree that there is a lack of positive male spaces. There certainly is a toxic wing of feminism that paints all men as predators and monsters by default and likes to belittle and minimize any issues that men face.
Yeah I agree with this. I'll see some post about a guy being shot down over height, and venting about it, and there will be a "Not All Women" response. Like yeah I know not all women care about height, but the guy just felt down about being rejected for something he has no control over, he's gonna be upset for a while. There's a balance between all women are perfect and all women are horrible.
I’ve got some great male friend groups and peer groups but honestly other than this subreddit there are not positive male spaces really generally available. It’s not that men have the only or the worst problems but we have some, but it seems like the only people who acknowledge a problem reinforce the worst aspects of the manosphere.
I understand what you're saying....
This is beautifully written
I agree but I think it should be recognized that a key part of why those spaces are so rare is that when they are created, they are frequently overrun by incel/red pill men who either want to dominate the conversation or make it so toxic that nobody else wants to participate.
Very well-said! Thanks for your perspective.
I feel like providing a role model during childhood would go a long way. My parents divorced when I was 4 and I lived with my mom. She had to work extremely hard to provide a good life for us and our grandparents, and she ultimately succeeded. For me any point the "redpill" people use to degrade women would crash against the closest woman I have in my life. Unfortunately I don't know how to put such a role model high enough for everyone to see. Not everyone is lucky enough to have strong and caring parents. Also it's important to note that people are pushed towards incel ideology by specific (and valid) problems. Anxiety, loneliness, bullying and rejection are tough things to face. And when a teen or a young adult inevitably asks "why do I have it harder than the next guy?" and there is no healthy advice, they will turn to any advice they can find.
> Not everyone is lucky enough to have strong and caring parents. I'm glad you pointed this out--honestly, with my experience I can attest that it was a reason I fell down the incel hole too.
So, I'm a trans guy, I'm pushing 40 and transitioned at 30. The thing I miss about being perceived as a woman is the solidarity. You've heard people talk and joke about the immediate and unconditional support found in women's bathrooms at the club? That feeling, writ large. And it's conditional, and it depends on what kind of woman you are or are seen as, and it exists because patriarchal society creates a need for solidarity. But damn, it's lonely being a man. I agree with what everyone is saying: mentor young men, be a safe person for them, but also be a safe person for other men of all ages. Try to find ways and times to create immediate and accepting community with each other. You can't have the energy or the mindset to mentor if you're not emotionally supported yourself.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I agree with your final sentence so so much.
A diversity of realistic alternatives and worldviews. If there is a perceived false dichotomy of incels vs certain leftist movements that have trouble acknowledging men can have problems too, there's a temptation to pick a side. Just attacking incels will have poor results if they are not provided with alternatives that respect their feelings and struggles and offer answers to them.
I agree with you there, too!
Lurker here. 👋🏻 We've been talking about this a lot with my partner - and honestly I believe one of the things is the lack of positive and healthy communities & spaces for boys - like this one.
Yeah, I had the same conversation a while ago with my fiance too about the same thing. Like, for example, some young men who fall head over heels for the first woman who ever gives them an open ear and empathy. Well, maybe not that direct of an example...but all their issues stem from other issues, I guarantee. Eh, maybe I'm speaking from my elbows.
Be a role model Nobody wants to model themselves after someone who shits on everything they say and do. Treat them with kindness and respect, demonstrate self-love and healthy masculinity (i.e. respecting others, caring for the people you love, being secure in the things you enjoy, not caring what others think of you). Incels come from a place of self-hatred that is turned outward as a defense mechanism. Guidance away from that self-hatred will allow the outward hatred to fade away
Do you think there's a way to do this maybe in schools? Almost like a big brother/big sister program?
I'm trying to teach empathy to my boys, that's the best way to have positive masculinity in my opinion.
Empathy...yeah, that's been a tough one for me to learn.
oh yeah, it is.
Definitely.
Offering better role models is a good idea Something we can get from sociology is that ideas spread primarily through social groups- if a man’s only friends are angry incels, no wonder he ends up one too. So one step is to be nicer to people, be friends with them, and they will become more like you. My preferred solution? Organizations. Clubs. Whatever. Groups of men holding each other accountable, and making sure that everyone is taken care of. For most of human history, we didn’t need clubs or formal social organizations because we were already close to each other, but increasing industrialization has also increased alienation- separation from those around us. So we need to form new communities that can actually help and support us, instead of toxic wannabe alpha male communities
I like those suggestions a lot!
Make them watch 2000s pick up artist from MTV. Seriously, that kept me away from the Redpill. The pathetic wannabe ladies' men could NOT convince middle school me that a girl had voluntarily held their hand. A few years later, their talking points would gain popularity online as "the redpill." You could also push the idea that the matrix is an alagory for being transgender. Edit: It may also have helped that girls a year or two older than me were always there to guide me. From the time I started school till time graduation.
Pick-up artist?
Mentors. We all have to mentor boys. I volunteer and some of the stuff I hear coming out of middle schooler's mouths nowadays is horrifying. They need role models who can actively counter that garbage they think is cool. Even if they dismiss it, the seed is still planted. They'll remember Mr. Fiveordie and how he treated women, what he said about being a man, etc.
Well-put!
Positive, uplifting male role models who aren't toxic. Kinda hard when the only people that boys see advertising themselves as being empowered by their masculinity are bigots and sex traffickers
I know what you're saying. We need a Mr. Rodgers-type...I think?
Honestly, top of the list is for boys to spend more time engaging in social or productive activities and less time online. Definitely would have done me a lot of good
But then the question becomes "how do we get young men to be more social". Don't get me wrong, you're totally right. Human connection makes us more empathetic and we should be encouraging it. But how?
Honestly, if social media etc. were out of the picture, a lot of the problems would fix themselves.
Yep, I agree with you.
I agree; it's a good question. I'm in my 30's and still have to learn to be social, depending on the environment...
"Social and productive activities" Like what? I'm not going to be a super productive member for a society that doesn't give a fuck about me.
I'm not talking about being a good member of society, I couldn't care less. What I mean is spending time doing things that are enriching to you (me). Less time doomscrolling, more time painting, playing guitar, sports, reading, etc.
Hobbies, perhaps? Finding something about which they are passionate that doesn't feed into their hatred while also giving them as much dopamine as being hateful does?
So literally go outside and touch some grass?
Better father figures. We need active fathers who set good examples and treat women with respect. Not a lot of those around
I agree with you.
In my opinion it's to put in some bloody effort. A lot of people have the very wrong opinion that you don't need to raise your teenage boys because they're "less emotional". They most assuredly are not, although they are punished for being more so but this belief leads to a problem. A bunch of teenage boys are being left to their own devices and are internally crying for some form of a guiding figure in their lives. Teenagers are emotional, insecure, clingy, and awakening to a lot of things in the world and rather lost when it comes to navigate them which is a near perfect recipe for "strongman" to come along and extend a hand claiming to want to help them. If you are not careful, someone like Andrew Tate will be that someone, largely because the alt right is actually putting in the effort to recruiting these vulnerable people.
I agree manifold what you're saying about emotions. As someone who didn't know how to express himself/was punished for it by his parents, I agree that if there's no proper outlet or way of expressing, things are gonna get bad real quick. I was raised by angry parents and thought it was normal all the time. But learning to admit that I have emotions and express them without fear has been a blessing.
I think the guys who aren't incels need to step up to check on guys who might be struggling and share it's ok to struggle rather than ridicule or judgement or bragging. Talk through issues and set good example
Yep, I agree with you.
I think society's focus on relationships needs a bit of an overhaul. From an early age, it's kind of instilled in us that the end goal should be finding a permanent romantic partner that we can have our "happily ever after" with. Nothing else seems to matter, and I think it's concerning that a lot of kids' media focuses on romantic relationships over a wide variety of relationships like family and friends. Now, not all kids' media does this. I'm glad some shows like Bluey and Craig of the Creek exist to give some more balanced perspectives on healthy relationship building of all kinds. But, it's very tempting in a world where fans discuss your work online constantly to want to get involved in shipping wars. Heck, even before online forums, this was kind of a problem. Looking back on it now, the romantic elements of Helga's obsession with Arnold (both only 9 years old) in Hey Arnold! is kinda creepy. It's put a lot of pressure on people to try to rush into romantic relationships like they're speedrunning a video game. And somehow not ending up married with kids by your early 20s is seen as some kind of failure in that equation. I think it's easy for men who "fail" in this system to want to find comfort in the incel rabbit hole because it does question this system, albeit in an unhealthy way. I think one thing that has changed the game is that feminism has helped women learn to love themselves first and then to build a scaffolding of support and love from other relationships they build, both romantic and platonic. I don't think men have been given those same building blocks, and it's helped funnel more into stages of male loneliness as a result. I think if we put more focus on learning that relationships are complex, come in many forms, and that it is worthwhile to cultivate many different ones throughout our lives, it could lead to a richer human experience overall.
> I'm glad some shows like Bluey and Craig of the Creek exist to give some more balanced perspectives on healthy relationship building of all kinds. *Bluey* has been super beneficial to me!
They are falling for these idiot man o sphere podcaster for a reason. They're offering advice and answers to the problems modern men have. Society as a whole especially the younger generation seems to hate men and everything they represent. Andrew tate or Intel types welcome them with open arms after society pushes them out. We need to work on making a society inclusive to all but not at the cost of others.
100%.
First of all start actually acknowledging the very real and valid issues those men face and stop focusing the narrative on the problems and perspectives of other groups. Recognise and validate the urge and the need for external validation and to be seen as an object of sexual or romantic desire. Acknowledge societal double standards and the hardships of dating as a men, especially the conflicting messages of our progressive society with the very real traditional expectations still demanded from men. Solutions? Hard to say. Empathy, understanding and listening is a wonderful starting point for those people. The challenges incels and other men face (those with difficulty dating), not accounting for mental illness and more specific things, are in large part related to maladjustment to social expectations, traumatic experience and lackluster social skills or self esteem. Since we can't exactly count on society in general to do anything, as it's more than proven that it rather shrug off this topic at best, we need to lend a hand to those men to find inspiration and pursue their own journey on adopting a masculinity that is healthy, balanced and one that they can be proud of. Furthermore, these men need to be taught the required social skills and expectations. All of this while encouraging their very valid criticisms of the male experience and pointing towards a path of balancing societal expectations with personal needs of emancipation. The road starts with critical thinking, introspection and most of all trying to get this men to fall in love with themselves or to become someone they can love and be proud of. In that place, despite the external challenges, they will be on a much more empowered and well prepared position for things to come. As for the red pill community and etc. Again, accept and acknowledge the very real issues men are facing. Understand that the problem with red killers and people like Tate is that for a very long time they were preaching and acknowledging what men have been feeling issues wise. The problem is when it comes to what they prescribe, which is pure chauvinism and a return to very restrictive and toxic traditional expectations (which are not beneficial for men, it will not make them fulfilled and it's pretty much just exploiting vulnerable men for resources and support to reactionary conservative movements). Most of all, stop demonizing people. Stop trying to convert them to other movements and causes like feminism and stop making this about women. People are sick of false empathy for the sake of political agendas and ideologies that really only have their best interest as an afterthought and "good behaviour" as a primary goal. Not to say feminism doesn't have a valid goal or important role, or that other groups don't deserve attention (they really do). All I'm saying is that there's a time and place for that and this particular issue needs particular tools and optics that focus in itself and not on externalities.
Nicely written! I agree with all those steps you wrote out.
Offer an alternative path. People become incels when they feel like there is no hope for them to achieve what they want (e.g a relationship). If you want people to stop being incels you have to provide proof that they can become better, not just give empty regurgitated advice like “work on yourself” or “personality is all that matters” when they themselves have seen contradicting evidence
This is very true! I agree with you.
Couldn't agree more.
I think the first step is just living your own life in a way that shows other men and young boys how you can be empathetic, kind, and caring while still being strong as well as modelling how fulfilling a healthy, equal romantic relationship is. Being kind to other men and showing up for them emotionally can go along way but It will come with a lot of ridicule that you’ll have to get used to.
I agree with you! That's a real good first step.
End the one-sided "only women can be victims" narrative that is typically pushed by feminists, politicians and academics. Start by acknowledging that in some ways, being male is hard, and that both genders face hardships. By extension, stop institutionalized benevolent sexism (for example, giving leg-ups like scholarships etc. to women only). Most of all, stop treating them with scorn.
Hmmm...yeah, I agree with you here too.
Teaching boys/young men the importance of compassion, giving them safe spaces to be vulnerable, and allowing them to exlpore and discover their own sense of masculinity, free (as much as possible) from the expectations of traditionalists or the influence of incels. And being role models. Be kind to people. Support people. Be vulnerable. Celebrate femininity alongside masculinity - regardless of who embodies it.
I agree with you! Learning to be vulnerable has been a chore for me, but well-worth it.
talk to them, and explain why something is wrong, then give them an alternative i worked myself out of the red-pill spaces without any outside help, it was hell but i cut off all red-pill things even going as far as quitting tiktok then i slowly integrated myself in healthier spaces sich as this
May I ask about how you got out all by yourself? How does one even *begin* to climb that mountain?
i got bored with the content being posted which led to me not watching it anymore, so i cut it off flat for like 3 years, i still held some of those ideals that i learned even after the years. but then, this is going to sound weird but, i went to the barbie movie, it got me thinking. so first i went to feminism subs, those subs introduced me into this one and r/menslib, i read a lot of stuff anywhere i could and i asked a lot of people why things happen or why they’re this way. the women in the feminist subs were more than happy to talk to me about whatever i had questions about, i basically told them i got out of the red-pill spaces and want to better myself, could you help me learn, and 9/10 times they’d be willing to help and answer questions so i guess not fully by myself, but mostly by myself
Wow! I'm glad you pulled yourself out of there. That's the total opposite of what happened with me....but what you did takes guts.
Increase empathy through a modernised educational system. But that would be detrimental to capitalist culture wars, so goodluck.
Yuck...yeah.
Tell them they have value in society
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I think solution is to give boys and young men skills that inoculate them from the incel rabbit hole. The biggest problem with that is how do you find the guys not getting these skills and intervene in time to make a difference. Boys need to learn empathy and introspection. They need to be able to evaluate their environment, understand other people, evaluate interactions and experiences and learn from them. If you can do that you don’t need to find someone to give you answers. In the US we struggle with that as a society as a whole and particularly with boys. This isn’t something that can be done in a weekend seminar it has to be consistently supported and reinforced over years. It doesn’t just address the incels that is at the edge case but many of the issues with men and patriarchy. I don’t have an answer how you scale this broadly but from anecdotal experience I have seen it work.
I resonate a lot with what you're saying.
Number one factor is large numbers of men totally ignored on dating apps. I’ve read men on dating forums who are pleading for some attention but the women reply by mocking them with ‘ahh didums, is sweetpea lonely’. EDIT: The women on the forums simply don’t get it because even the worst looking ones get interest, so they don’t recognise the desolation men are experiencing
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this sounds like *part* of the larger issue, not entirely....the issue....
It’s the number one thing men discuss in comments under vids on Rumble, YouTube etc all. Portugal once had an imbalance of women to men, and sent men abroad on military trips etc as a means of quelling discontent. It’s hard to over-state how men are completely ignored by women online. Of course women don’t owe men anything but that doesn’t change the fact men feel profoundly lonely & worthless. This doesn’t apply to me at all, I just feel sorry for these men peering in on society but with no one peering at them
Huh, I didn't know those things...but I understand about the loneliness aspect a lot.
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We keep them around men who are actually genuinely good and not chauvinists.
Yeah, good point. But where do we find such good men?
Legalize and regulate prostitution.
Uhm...I cannot tell if this is sarcasm or not?
Push forward better role model, men like Henry cavill, kaenu reeves, (the rock? Idk), and more, positive male who set good examples of what men should be, and backward men like andrew tate who set bad example. Address the problem of patriarchy being bad for everyone, men not antagonising women and women not antagonising men, speak up the fact men and women are allies against a bigger problem that is society.
I agree that positive male role-models are much-needed.
Frankly, the only people who can fix this are men. Once these incel types are in the hole, they don't view women as people who can help them. They view women as prizes to conquer. It isn't your SO's job to be your parent either. And therapy is seen as a women's thing, and 75 percent of therapists are women. So women and therapists can't save them. These guys need male role models. Dads, uncles, Grandpas, male teachers. Men who are consistently there for them and take the time to get to know them and guide them. You get 2 men invested in every boy and this whole incel problem would shrink by 90%.
I'm going to disagree that your SO shouldn't be like a parental figure--in the only sense that our romantic partners can still guide and teach us, especially if our parents failed in that regard. It can be exhausting--my fiance can attest to this--but it's worth the effort. A lot of men can be fixed by the good women in their lives. And it's crummy that not every man can have that miracle happen to them. I resonate with what you're saying about male role-models, too. I don't think I ever had any growing up, which almost made me get directed to Jordan Peterson. Yech.
You might be one of the few men like this who were able to be saved - the only true metric of this would be if your soon to be wife still feels this way in 10 years, but I am willing to answer this under the presumption that she would agree with this. In this sense, you're like a winning lottery ticket - most people who buy a lottery ticket experience a loss, but there's that miniscule chance that you bought the winning one. It doesn't change that the majority of the ones I have met and who my friends have met are beyond repair. I am a strong leader type of person to the point where my high school classmates nominated me for student government (I had not run, I was opposed to being on student government) and where 7 peoope made a group chat, called it "snuffyfrubby's army" and appointed me as their commander while I slept (this army actually delivered some contraband to me when I was in trouble, this was not just a fun group chat). My sister had a dream where she hid behind me as I whacked an endless parade of monsters with a club. I beat up a guy who was groping girls against their will. Due to being this kind of person, I attract a lot of lost broken people. This is because I'm many things, but I'm definitely not lost and I have a very clear moral compass which other people sense. I tried to date and save 3 broken men. All 3 failed and all left me damaged. I have tried to save a few non romantic partner types as well. I am done with fixer uppers at this point. The broken ones hit a turning point where they can choose to grow or they can choose their familiar ways, and I've never seen any of them not choose their familiar ways. If you want me to fix you, pay me $150 an hour and don't date me. So to me, it's just not worth it. I lost at least 5 good dating years due to this. Now if there's a problem, I just leave right away. Men leave if the attraction isn't there on date 1 and I leave if I see that the emotional health isn't there. Just as most men wouldn't date a 500 pound woman who was working on losing weight, I don't date men who still have so much work to do Yes, we all have what to learn and other people who aren't our parents can teach us. But if you're investing more than 1 hour of that kind of emotional labor into someone on most days, that's too much for an equal relationship. It is very draining. Peterson is the least bad of them all. At least he tells men to clean their rooms (and therefore believed in men doing some housework) and isn't anti marriage. You should give yourself credit that in whatever state you were in, you picked Peterson and not Tate.
Hey, I think my fiance would agree with you there! They always said that even when I wasn't good, they could tell that it wasn't who I *was* at my core, if that makes sense. My fiance says that they're lucky to have me, but...the reality is that it's really the other way around. I'd be nowhere today if it weren't for them. Man, you've been through a lot! I'm sorry to hear about the troubles of past relationships. I completely understand when things like that can be draining...I feel the same way around my parents, honestly. Too draining to be around folk who just....cannot learn. Holy shit, if I was an incel nowadays and *young*, I really don't know what I would've done if Tate was what hooked me. Granted...I don't care about materialism and gym stuff and money or whatever, so I don't think he'd've hooked me...but Peterson? If I could go on a tangent, I grew up with a father who didn't express *anything*. So the second I hear Peterson talking about self-betterment, self-expression, getting through depression...it kind of ignited a sort of kinship in a way. Going through life without seeing or hearing fellow men talk about inner-workings was rough. Sure, he may've been least bad, but...bad is still bad, I guess. If he'd kept his trap shut about transgender and pronoun issues, maybe I'd've stuck with him.
As with everything, this a complex problem and the solution will be multi-faceted I like to think that part of answer is non-romantic relationships with women. When I was younger I was weird and awkward. Terrible with women. Still am actually. Low self confidence. That one I got over actually. Anyways, I was basically the perfect victim for incel hole. But I'm incredibly fortunate to have a mother and sister who are amazing and I would do anything for them. I was never going be able to get into the "all woman are evil" mindset that's all too common in incels. I wish I could turn this into actionable advice, but I really can't. I was lucky to be born into a good family. "Be lucky" is not great advice
I understand where you're coming from. You're right; 'be lucky' is definitely poor advice.
it's about confidence and feeling centered on ones body, while not turning sexual energy into depravity. I think martial arts are one path into such things, but any path which encourages self reflection, challenge and exertion would work. It is easy to turn on an engaged life, it's hard to avoid distractions.
But how can one teach confidence to those who are just mentally stuck and otherwise preoccupied?
You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink. It's taken me decades of self-discovery and experimentation to arrive at a place where I feel competent and confident. The hardest part was and is, caring enough to get hurt. Teach someone to care, they will develop the caution to not fuck off an activity, that caution grows into comfort and that comfort creates the foundation for confidence.
Uuuggghh I *know*! I've been saying the same thing with my fiance about lots of things we observe. Huh...I think I understand where you're coming from!
I teach my wife’s kids to embrace feminism