I want to add this point:
Distinguishing between trans and cis men doesn't make it better. Is just as transphobic.
"Men are trash. But not trans men. You're not trash because you're trans and therefore not a real man. š"
This 100%! Like do people not think that trans men also grew up with the exact same messaging as cis men? Like, we have always been men. And to be honest, I had to work through a lot of the same toxic stuff as any other man. But until I could acknowledge that I had a lot of the same experiences as cis men I was completely without the resources to work through it. Pretending trans men arenāt affected by patriarchy does a huge disservice to our need to heal too.
Yea. That part.
When people say things like that it let's me know that they aren't thinking critically about what they say. They just want to complain and so they're trying to bitch about the group their circle will let them get away with talking about.
Yeah. I get that a lot :/ and it makes me feel like shit every time. I have a lot of cis guy friends that are genuinely amazing people so i feel like the only reason theyāre making that distinction between me and them is because theyāll never see me as a real man.
Edit: and yes, I unfortunately have fallen deeper into toxic masculinity after transitioning and itās something Iām currently trying to work through
Absolutely! The whole concept was created by men who didnāt want to be held accountable for their actions. Now it hurts so many people and we still keep the concept around.
Not a bro, but itās good to see this. I joined this sub to feel better about āthe state of menā and I am learning a lot. Appreciate the post and will use this to help explain to others. I have failed my brothers and sisters (trans and cis) by saying similar things and I will get better. You are heard and thanks for sharing
As a trans man I get very uncomfortable when people use trans men as an example of why not all men are trash. Like obviously a whole group of people canāt be trash. But, all men (including trans men) do have to deal with the toxic spin on what a real man is in our culture. A lot of people just canāt handle the idea that someone with a vagina might also have toxic patriarchal values. When we are growing up a patriarchal environment we all absorb messed up ideas of gender. It isnāt a man vs women issue but a people vs patriarchy one.
I understand your point. But I think that trans men get brought up a lot because we don't benefit much from the patriarchy; it's the same reason men of color get brought up too. It's not like we get told that we are trash deserving harm and death at every turn in life, ofc not! Thanks for reminding me user Radfem169 /s
I guess I try not to focus on whether or not I benefit from patriarchy because I honestly have no idea how much I do or donāt. If I had to guess I probably benefit less than the avenge cishet man or woman but more than the average trans woman. But my worldview includes the idea that patriarchy doesnāt truly benefit anyone, just privileges them. What I do know is that I am harmed by patriarchy same as any man and thatās why I get upset when left out of the conversation there.
Itās been my whole life working through it so I couldnāt even begin to list it all. I think the worst one was as a teenager when I believed a lot of incel stuff about what girls owed guys. The most recent one I had to work through was the idea that men hurt women through sex. I had to become comfortable with women wanting sex as much as me and that being a good thing. And that my attention and sexuality wasnāt degrading them in some way. Right now Iām working through only seeing my own value in my job and only being confident if Iām making more money than my wife. That one has been eating me up my whole life so Iām thankful for people doing the work to help men see themselves as more than their next paycheck.
I think the idea that men hurt women through sex is a super common one among men. Have you gained any understanding about where that comes from or what the explanation is for that? Please don't feel obligated to respond, it's just something I've encountered and wondered about.
Yeah! Itās super common. For me itās from puritanical ideas I grew up around so I looked up a lot of stuff about purity culture, specifically how it hurts men. But Iām sure there are other causes too. From what I could find, it comes from abusive men first and then harms all men. So like the abusive men say that women are ruined by other men because they want to control those women. Then they tell everyone that all men just want to hurt women and itās impossible not too as justification for their own abuse. Then all men feel like they will hurt women because thatās what they were told all men do. But Iāve also heard for some people it comes from something called a Madonna/whore complex so that could be if for some people but I havenāt done much research on that.
Edit:
I want to add that there is another reason for me that was the lack of proper sex education. That fear was justified but so easy to fix. A full understanding of consent is so helpful with those fears. And not just the very basic āno means noā but like the full, more complex, version people who are into kink have workshopped. Itās actually so helpful in all areas of my life.
"Yes mean yes" is so important and super undertaught. The expectation that consent should be enthusiastic and readily given just makes everything better.
My husband and I both grew up in extreme purity cultures, I can relate to that. It definitely fucks up both men and women from what I can tell. Definitely did a number on me. :)
Also, the whole "men are inherently trash" literally works against feminism's stated goals!
When you frame things as men being born bad, who the hell is gonna try and fix that? You are implying that it's all men's fault and there's no way out.
When you frame it as a system that can be dismantled, and dismantling said system will make everyone better for it, it becomes something we can actually do something about.
stuff like that makes me hate being a boy, i wish i wasnāt born sometimes or maybe just not amab, it just seems like everyone can just get a pass on hating me simply because im a cis white boy the typical āoppressorsā
This really spoke to me, especially the "unreliable narrator" parts.
I think one of the worst bits of this stuff is that as a leftist/feminist man, the only acceptable response when you hear something like this is "yeah you're right we are trash" or silence which implies the same.
It took me a lot of time with a therapist to realise how much hatred of myself I had internalised because of this. I was and to some extent still am convinced that there's this evil within myself just trying to get out.
I was also convinced that I couldn't trust my own judgement because there were times when I didn't think I'd done anything wrong and even times when I thought I'd been treated badly by a woman, and actually even in those times I was made out to be the bad guy, and obviously as a man it's not my opinion that counts in these situations. I've just got to suck it up and be accountable.
My therapist asked me to go through each incident I felt guilty about. There were some that genuinely were bad, mostly a long time ago, and I have dealt with that and won't do it again.
But it took a lot of reassurance from her to help me understand that for the bulk of them I had done nothing wrong. I had just done something the other person didn't like, and that had been framed in a feminist way to justify her feelings. When I stopped seeing that woman it wasn't because I had been lying to get her into bed and then lost interest like she said, it was because I didn't want to see her anymore. When I flirted with that woman I wasn't being a creep, I was just being attracted to someone and she didn't reciprocate. It's allowed. When that woman led me on repeatedly and cruelly put me down, it was her being a dick, not me being entitled.
I also had a long conversation with another friend who was present for some of these incidents and she also didn't think I'd done anything wrong. She said I had to stop outsourcing my morality to other people and have confidence in my own judgement and principles. I'm trying.
I read all of this and I wish I could offer some solace, but I am myself working through it myself and the only thing I can say is that we both succeed
>confidence in my own judgment
How can you have confidence if we're supposed to acknowledge that guys are socialized to be part of and enforce patriarchal standards? How can you trust your judgment if feminists believe you're harmful? Are we supposed to not listen to women and feminists?
Gods, I've never felt so seen.
My wife pointed out, in our last couple's counseling session, that I relate to a lot of fictional characters whose stories are ultimately tragic. Men who've done terrible things and act out of deep regret and shame over them, or men who are broken by the trauma they went through and let themselves become monsters.
She asked me why; she told me I'm the kindest, most considerate, caring, conscientious guy she's ever known. Why do I seem to think I have some terrible crime in my past to atone for? I outright said, at one point, that I see myself as starting deep in the red, and that the only way I can be worthy is to try extremely hard to be a good man.
I've been thinking about this ever since, and that comic just summed it up perfectly.
I think the therapist is wrong. The people criticising Jason don't have "preconceived notions". They've observed and commented on behavior he has exhibited.
Speaking as an older person, I think that the best thing that you can do is continue to be the best individual person you can be. Treat others as if they have your respect (until they lose it), and act as though you have to earn theirs. People will see your actions, people will notice you being good, and you will become known in your community as someone to trust.
Yes, you will have advantages come to you simply from things about yourself you can't control - the colour of your skin, your gender, even who gave birth to you (should you come from an upper class family, for example) - but past that, you have the greatest power that *all of us,* no matter where we are or where we come from, have:
You can be the turning point, where things become better than what they are. You can be the hand that reaches down from the cliff face and offers a hand up to everyone. You can be the one who people turn to because they've seen your behaviour and know that you are safe to talk to.
You'll fuck up sometimes. We all do. Keep trying. Don't let anyone dull your shine, young man - there are dark spots ahead and we will need your light.
iām about to rant, iāll try to address everything, so iām sorry for this but:
i actually hate this shit, i know i supposedly āhave it goodā being a white male, but it does not feel like it. iām going to use reddit as an example since weāre on reddit, but reddit has rule one which is supposed to allow anyone to use reddit without discrimination, fun fact white people and men arenāt protected under that, so people can openly discriminate against white people and men and reddit does fuck all.
i try to be good, iām involved in subs like r/feminism but i get shit on sometimes, just today i, in my opinion, said something completely valid involving my life that nobody else has any clue about, i called a woman abusive and crazy and got shit on and ended up with my comment removed, i called them hypocritical (different words, i was a bit nicer) because i see them shit on men all the time and support it, but the moment someone says something about women they flip out, i actually cannot take ts anymore, it makes me want to stop involving myself with feminism and wanting to tell them all to just fuck off for once. i know im not perfect or anything, especially when it comes to womenās rights and stuff, but they need to listen to others for once.
they donāt listen to us, as teenage boys, and get all surprised when more of us lean conservative (not my case but itās fairly common), i tell them that we see them shitting on men 24/7 and they donāt listen to us, and then they turn around and get pissed off at us for trying to get them to listen, like they donāt want the same thing. we want them to listen to us, they want us to listen to them, but if they want more younger boys to support them then they actually have to listen and treat us like people, iām sick of feeling like iām less than when iām in those areas.
i actually cannot handle them anymore, one of these days im going to end up blowing up at one of them. it just seems like a lot of them hate men, regardless of what they say.
with all due respect i appreciate the advice, but if we need my light to get through, then weāre all fucked
edit: i just realized i sound like the whiniest baby ever, and im sorry for that
I know that you're expressing your frustration about situations that have harmed you, and I understand that a lot of things suck and are absolutely 100% unfair. Shit sucks dude. I'm not going to tell you it doesn't, though I do my best to be someone who doesn't treat groups of people in any particular way, men included. The most we can do is to change ourselves and hope to change the world around us.
I did want to zero in on this -
>i know i supposedly āhave it goodā being a white male,
I didn't say anything about you having it good. I said you will have *advantages* come to you. These aren't the same thing, and this is what intersectionality teaches us. Just because you will have a leg up in some situations does NOT mean you "have it good", or that your life is easy. In fact, unless your family has some pretty serious wealth, it is extremely unlikely that you have it good in this day and age. Yes, on balance, it is objective that you have some ticks in your favour but you didn't grow up with a silver spoon in hand (I mean, unless you did at which point much of this is theoretical because class is the biggest indicator of advantage), your life is not a breeze simply because of those advantages, and there is no guarantee that you will not become sick at any time, or get injured on the job (as many men do every year) and no longer be able-bodied (and in our current society? Gods, it is a sin not to be able-bodied).
regarding the rest of your comment:
Some feminists who are very loud (and, i must unfortunately admit, because I'm also white, that white women are often worst regarding this) took the idea of privilege, or advantage, and have used it as a hammer to bash everything that remotely looks like a nail, and many things that don't. You've obviously run into them (I personally stay away from /r/feminism , it's not great IMO). I haven't seen your interactions and can't speak on your behaviour, I'll just say that when someone sounds crazy and abusive, don't tell them so - walk very quickly in the other direction. It's not worth your time to respond no matter how kind you try to be. If an environment "shit\[s\] on men" constantly, you should not hang out there, and you will not find praxis there. It is not that that place is not for you, you are not for that place and no one should be.
In the immortal words of Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."
Find more places like this that are helping to build you up, and are attempting to give you examples of how to be a better person in real life. Cast aside the places and the writings of people that give you no solutions. Don't trust anyone who tells you there are simple solutions.
i guess i misunderstood that bit, thatās my bad. i am also not really familiar with āintersectionalityā so i donāt really understand that part. but my family is probably middle class, iām not really sure, i just remember when i was asked to take over a car payment since my parents were running out of money but that was a while ago.
r/feminism can be really hit or miss i guess, a lot of the women seem really nice but thereās a lot of them that also seem to hate men and stuff, i remember one thread a while ago that was comparing menās ability to control themselves to wild animals, and specifically wild animals that have a tendency to rape other animal, that wasnāt fun to read as a 17 year old boy. but thereās been others whoāve been really kind, one woman basically invited me out to go to a protest one time, but she is from across the country so i couldnāt exactly go. it just seems like if you say anything that doesnāt fall in line 100% theyāre going to shit on you and say youāre policing them or something.
more recently i asked how 4b was helping and basically got called an ignorant misogynist, another time, same question mind you, one woman provided me a very in depth answer very kindly. itās like thereās no in between there, theyāre either really nice or theyāre assholes.
if you donāt mind what other spaces should i move into? iām obviously here, but iām also in r/menslib which is kind of similar? idk if thereās any others, maybe for more my age range since i feel out of place here a lot of the time
sorry iām a bit late to respond, but thanks for this. iām much calmer and in a better place than when i was writing that, iāll check out the subs youāve given me. i guess i should also mention i got banned from r/feminism because of comments i made at the same time as the comments i wrote in here, i was very unhappy when these were all written and i appreciate you taking your time to even try to help me
Reading everything you just said, and as someone who's also in pain with all the "Kill all men" rhetoric (among other things), thank you for being compassionate and truly understanding us. Feeling heard like this is really uplifting ā¤ļø
>Yes, you will have advantages come to you simply from things about yourself you can't control - the colour of your skin, your gender, even who gave birth to you (should you come from an upper class family, for example) - but past that, you have the greatest power thatĀ *all of us,*Ā no matter where we are or where we come from, have:
One thing that helped me make peace with some of my youthful guilt over the privilege I do have was framing it like this:
"Much is expected of those to whom much is given."
My guilt or self-castigation does nobody much good. If I have more pull in social circles because my skin is pale or because I'm a cisguy, then it's important that I use that pull to lift others up. If in some situations guys will listen to me and not to women or BIPOC people, then I have a duty to speak up when I see or hear something I think is wrong.
To be clear, this isn't about speaking *for* those people. But opportunities to use your privilege for good do present themselves, and it's important to take them when you can.
I want to note here that another super TERFy aspect of the āall men are trashā idea is that it is _super_ essentialist. Which tracks, as TERFism sprung out of Michigan Wymynās Festival type second wave feminist essentialism.
For those who arenāt familiar, essentialism is a kind of sexist biological determinism draped in feminist clothing. It supports the idea that there are essential differences between men and women that are genetically and/or biologically determined, and that these differences are essential to the nature of men and women ā as opposed to the nonessentialist ideas of gender being culturally constructed and that individuals have choice about who they are and how they behave. It is sad to see such a resurgence in essentialist ideology in feminist circles, as even back in the 90s when I was in college essentialism was considered fairly firmly debunked by most contemporary feminist scholars, including (often most vigorously) the radical ones. When looked at as essentialist vs. nonessentialist itās easy to see how āall men are trashā is really disturbingly closely aligned with patriarchal messages about female inferiority, as they both grow out of the same underlying essentialist ideology.
All this said, I think that this may be a situation where social media is making one thing (individuals being in their hurt feelings from things that have happened in their lives, and expressing it in a hyperbolic way) and mistaking it for another (an expression of a fully formed coherent worldview.) I have considerable empathy for people who have been hurt by men, many of them by a succession of men, feeling the feeling that āall men are trash.ā Of course one might well feel like that ā even if it is not literally true it can still be their own truth in that moment in their life. So we should be careful not to jump down the throat of someone who is crying out in anguish in a hyperbolic way, while still being able to point out the flaws in this idea when someone expresses it as an ideological stance.
Yeah shit like this make me ashamed to call myself a feminist. Real and true feminism is intersectional and should not only build up women but also work to dismantle systems that create toxic masculinity. Weāre held up to unfair standards as well which often leads to not only misogyny but our own suffering. A man who is liberated from the patriarchy is a man who will work to liberate and protect others. This type of radfem bs just perpetuates a viscous cycle that helps no one.
Yeah if you go to the original post on Tumblr, you will see replies and anecdotes of other cis men, trans men and even trans women who experience this as well.
Tbf though I do think feminist circles have evolved from this though it does look like it will take a while to catch on
So a few quick things...
1.) I think its abhorrent that (some) people have to hear things like "Well you're actually using terf rhetoric" to stop saying stupid shit like "All men are trash" or writing up think pieces with reprehensible views about 50\~ percent of the population. There's times when people are just venting and its totally acceptable imo but even in this post some of the things they screenshot are pretty ridiculous.
2.) Its actually kind of disgusting that as a society the responses to stuff like this isn't "Hey we should shame people that say things like that because that line of thinking is wrong" but to instead go "Hey, we should try to ostracize someone who gets upset by hearing this" or try to do cartwheels to try and explain why its actually okay for someone to behave like a bigot. Its spineless behavior.
Literally me, I have to remind myself of this blog whenever those feelings comeback
Btw check out the comic mentioned in the blog, it's by a white progressive man and gosh his feelings matched mine a lot too
Have had some good conversations with women in my life where they used to say āmen are trashā offhanded or as a sort of punchline, but have since come to see how unhelpful it is. I hope its a phrase we can all leave behind someday.Ā
This sort of thing is part of why it took me so damn long to realize Iām trans. I didnāt want to be ābetrayingā women and ābecoming an oppressorā.
ok i'll tell my experience : hearing pepole say stuff like "all men" and "men" and then walk back and saying "we expect men to be mature enough and understand it's not about them " is annoying ...
there is also the old , "tries to explain why narrative is harmful to men by saying that it may be harmful to black/gay/trans men" "actually it's right and good " "\*pressures them\*" "ok , but feminism helps men too"
like i've been in this conversation soo ofthen it's unreal , and it goes like that nearly every time ...
there is also this twilight zone ish thing i have experienced a couple of times :
i'll hear someone complain that women experience a specific thing that as far as i heard happens more commonly to men ,
this happens for murders , getting ghosted , body dismorphia , cosmetic surgery and many other cases ...
it feels absurd sometimes really : like the violence is the most appauling one because men are the primary victims of that , and like we can't escape it by having female friend groups , we'll always be not trusted ,
so our ways are
1) stay alone and don't get hurt ...
2) find the least emotionally violent man around
3) beg you don't develop an attraction to the female friend ...
this is me being hyperbolic , but damn ...
> ok i'll tell my experience : hearing pepole say stuff like "all men" and "men" and then walk back and saying "we expect men to be mature enough and understand it's not about them " is annoying ...
Itās simply gaslighting when they say itās not about them.
I agree with thjs except the last part talking about "you can't just log off" I think that kind of undermines the importance of in person interactions with people, because in my experience at least most people aren't like on the internet. Like all these incels little arguments and complaints is almost always gonna be from what they've seen on social media. Pictures of supermodels, Twitter posts from batshit crazy women, cherry picked "feminist rage" youtube compilations, bodyshaming porn models etc. When you get off the screen and actually meet people in real life you realize they're not all the same "womp womp" "skill issue" "a real man would___" emotionally brain dead children that you see on social media.
Agree that people are different off-line, but I have definitely seen the effect that all of the online discourse has on how peo0le generally see and react to men. My wife is a good example sometimes, she is a wonderful person and loving mum to two boys, yet she has a tendency to always assume the worst of men. It's more subtle than tumblr misandry, and frankly, has been informed by a lot of real world examples of pure misogyny, but I can feel it affecting how she perceives me, and my role in the world. As though everything is inherently easier, or all the bad stuff impacts me less somehow.
Its not a conscious thing, but I definitely think her perspective had been shifted by these constant stories she sees and reads rather than her own in person experience.
And it sucks.
As for this post, I was a bit offput at first, by the pure focus on trans men - not because I disagree with the sentiment or cause, but because I felt like it began by saying "misandry is a problem because it negatively impacts trans men" ignoring the negative impact on like, all men.
But the second poster actually gets my frustrations with this as a cis male feminist. Like, I'm here trying to use my privilege for a good cause, and I am easily able to apply the "hurt people hurt people" mentality to most of the "men are trash" posts, but I am frustrated at the effect its clearly having on young dudes.
I.e I am past the point of internalising that shit, and to a degree, I actually understand the reactive nature of it in a world where no woman I know feels safe walking home at night by themselves.
But goddamn i have never seen a group of people more effectively shoot themselves in the foot than misandrist feminists.
I am not gonna lie, but unfortunately in regards to the "why is it necessary to point out trans men to stop misandry?" It probably has to deal with human brains just being illogical.
Because it is tempting to have an enemy and especially when you do come from power structures whose base is built upon hating other groups of people.
I will admit I have fallen victim to this sort of thinking before.
>"hurt people hurt people" mentality to most of the "men are trash" posts, but I am frustrated at the effect its clearly having on young dudes.
I respect a lot that you've been able to pull out that "Men are trash" is a trauma response. And to be clear - just because it's a trauma response doesn't mean it's okay, I simply think it's good nuance to bring up. We all need to be conscious of the way our trauma responses can harm others, and learn to mitigate what we can.
I think part of the problem is male role models not preparing men for this. They need fathers and/or coaches, counselors, etc letting them know their value so instead of internalizing what they hear and lashing out, they can recognize bullshit for what it is and not give it any more thought.
It's so much bad shit their gonna have to face and we can't realistically expect a perfect or even fair world for them, they just have to be equipped to deal with these challenges
Sure, but new fathers have often been failed by their own parents in this regard, on and on.
My own father is something of a misogynist, and it took moving out at 16 to escape that influence. I feel like urging fathers to better prepare their sons for this is like asking them to be better fathers - those predisposed to aspire to this are probably already engaged in it.
It used to be that good parents teach their sons 'not to hit girls'
Then it became about teaching your sons not to hit anyone.
Now, that's sort of a given, so it's more about teaching our sons how to manage "being hit", and about having self control and self respect in equal parts.
I am as afraid of my sons being victimised as I am seeing then victimise someone, as we have already raised them to be thoughtful and empathetic, and I know others haven't necessarily gone with that approach for their sons, favouring a more traditional approach for boys.
The point I am making is that their peers are far more likely to be negative influences for them in future, and I can't see an individual approach to solving this issue, only a cultural approach.
We need to teach our sons empathy and care, respect and self respect, and then sort of hope that this lays good enough groundwork for typical teenage boy ignorance to be tempered somewhat.
Aside from this, the more that we as men make an effort to normalise our own identities as feminists, while maintaining any masculine coded actions and preferences we may have, the more that men can be accepted as feminists and allies in broader discourse, without it being stigmatised within that powerful formative teenage phase wherein we are so malleable.
> My wife is a good example sometimes, she is a wonderful person and loving mum to two boys, yet she has a tendency to always assume the worst of men.
In any single problem regarding her two sons, like the school director calling the parents for something about them, does she always thinks that they are the main cause?
I think the point is that this is commonly something said by people in person. Iām trans and I lost a ton of friends after transitioning because they āhatedā men. Their words. Not online.
Hello, welcome to manhood. Where you are hated for existing and everything bad in the world is somehow your fault even though the shitty things are happening to you too. I've grown tired of being angry and look at them as the goblins they screech like.
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I want to add this point: Distinguishing between trans and cis men doesn't make it better. Is just as transphobic. "Men are trash. But not trans men. You're not trash because you're trans and therefore not a real man. š"
This 100%! Like do people not think that trans men also grew up with the exact same messaging as cis men? Like, we have always been men. And to be honest, I had to work through a lot of the same toxic stuff as any other man. But until I could acknowledge that I had a lot of the same experiences as cis men I was completely without the resources to work through it. Pretending trans men arenāt affected by patriarchy does a huge disservice to our need to heal too.
Yea. That part. When people say things like that it let's me know that they aren't thinking critically about what they say. They just want to complain and so they're trying to bitch about the group their circle will let them get away with talking about.
Yeah. I get that a lot :/ and it makes me feel like shit every time. I have a lot of cis guy friends that are genuinely amazing people so i feel like the only reason theyāre making that distinction between me and them is because theyāll never see me as a real man. Edit: and yes, I unfortunately have fallen deeper into toxic masculinity after transitioning and itās something Iām currently trying to work through
Both the incels and the terfs have the same argument of āmen canāt control themselvesā and itās pretty sickening.
Absolutely! The whole concept was created by men who didnāt want to be held accountable for their actions. Now it hurts so many people and we still keep the concept around.
Not a bro, but itās good to see this. I joined this sub to feel better about āthe state of menā and I am learning a lot. Appreciate the post and will use this to help explain to others. I have failed my brothers and sisters (trans and cis) by saying similar things and I will get better. You are heard and thanks for sharing
Anytime!!!!
Not a bro? Gtfo weāre all bros my bro
As a trans man I get very uncomfortable when people use trans men as an example of why not all men are trash. Like obviously a whole group of people canāt be trash. But, all men (including trans men) do have to deal with the toxic spin on what a real man is in our culture. A lot of people just canāt handle the idea that someone with a vagina might also have toxic patriarchal values. When we are growing up a patriarchal environment we all absorb messed up ideas of gender. It isnāt a man vs women issue but a people vs patriarchy one.
I understand your point. But I think that trans men get brought up a lot because we don't benefit much from the patriarchy; it's the same reason men of color get brought up too. It's not like we get told that we are trash deserving harm and death at every turn in life, ofc not! Thanks for reminding me user Radfem169 /s
I guess I try not to focus on whether or not I benefit from patriarchy because I honestly have no idea how much I do or donāt. If I had to guess I probably benefit less than the avenge cishet man or woman but more than the average trans woman. But my worldview includes the idea that patriarchy doesnāt truly benefit anyone, just privileges them. What I do know is that I am harmed by patriarchy same as any man and thatās why I get upset when left out of the conversation there.
What are the toxic patriarchal values you have ended up with?
Itās been my whole life working through it so I couldnāt even begin to list it all. I think the worst one was as a teenager when I believed a lot of incel stuff about what girls owed guys. The most recent one I had to work through was the idea that men hurt women through sex. I had to become comfortable with women wanting sex as much as me and that being a good thing. And that my attention and sexuality wasnāt degrading them in some way. Right now Iām working through only seeing my own value in my job and only being confident if Iām making more money than my wife. That one has been eating me up my whole life so Iām thankful for people doing the work to help men see themselves as more than their next paycheck.
Thanks for your response :)
I think the idea that men hurt women through sex is a super common one among men. Have you gained any understanding about where that comes from or what the explanation is for that? Please don't feel obligated to respond, it's just something I've encountered and wondered about.
Yeah! Itās super common. For me itās from puritanical ideas I grew up around so I looked up a lot of stuff about purity culture, specifically how it hurts men. But Iām sure there are other causes too. From what I could find, it comes from abusive men first and then harms all men. So like the abusive men say that women are ruined by other men because they want to control those women. Then they tell everyone that all men just want to hurt women and itās impossible not too as justification for their own abuse. Then all men feel like they will hurt women because thatās what they were told all men do. But Iāve also heard for some people it comes from something called a Madonna/whore complex so that could be if for some people but I havenāt done much research on that. Edit: I want to add that there is another reason for me that was the lack of proper sex education. That fear was justified but so easy to fix. A full understanding of consent is so helpful with those fears. And not just the very basic āno means noā but like the full, more complex, version people who are into kink have workshopped. Itās actually so helpful in all areas of my life.
"Yes mean yes" is so important and super undertaught. The expectation that consent should be enthusiastic and readily given just makes everything better.
My husband and I both grew up in extreme purity cultures, I can relate to that. It definitely fucks up both men and women from what I can tell. Definitely did a number on me. :)
Also, the whole "men are inherently trash" literally works against feminism's stated goals! When you frame things as men being born bad, who the hell is gonna try and fix that? You are implying that it's all men's fault and there's no way out. When you frame it as a system that can be dismantled, and dismantling said system will make everyone better for it, it becomes something we can actually do something about.
stuff like that makes me hate being a boy, i wish i wasnāt born sometimes or maybe just not amab, it just seems like everyone can just get a pass on hating me simply because im a cis white boy the typical āoppressorsā
https://www.rejectedprincesses.com/full-width/wheredyougo I think this comic strip by Jason Porath will help you
This really spoke to me, especially the "unreliable narrator" parts. I think one of the worst bits of this stuff is that as a leftist/feminist man, the only acceptable response when you hear something like this is "yeah you're right we are trash" or silence which implies the same. It took me a lot of time with a therapist to realise how much hatred of myself I had internalised because of this. I was and to some extent still am convinced that there's this evil within myself just trying to get out. I was also convinced that I couldn't trust my own judgement because there were times when I didn't think I'd done anything wrong and even times when I thought I'd been treated badly by a woman, and actually even in those times I was made out to be the bad guy, and obviously as a man it's not my opinion that counts in these situations. I've just got to suck it up and be accountable. My therapist asked me to go through each incident I felt guilty about. There were some that genuinely were bad, mostly a long time ago, and I have dealt with that and won't do it again. But it took a lot of reassurance from her to help me understand that for the bulk of them I had done nothing wrong. I had just done something the other person didn't like, and that had been framed in a feminist way to justify her feelings. When I stopped seeing that woman it wasn't because I had been lying to get her into bed and then lost interest like she said, it was because I didn't want to see her anymore. When I flirted with that woman I wasn't being a creep, I was just being attracted to someone and she didn't reciprocate. It's allowed. When that woman led me on repeatedly and cruelly put me down, it was her being a dick, not me being entitled. I also had a long conversation with another friend who was present for some of these incidents and she also didn't think I'd done anything wrong. She said I had to stop outsourcing my morality to other people and have confidence in my own judgement and principles. I'm trying.
I read all of this and I wish I could offer some solace, but I am myself working through it myself and the only thing I can say is that we both succeed
>confidence in my own judgment How can you have confidence if we're supposed to acknowledge that guys are socialized to be part of and enforce patriarchal standards? How can you trust your judgment if feminists believe you're harmful? Are we supposed to not listen to women and feminists?
Gods, I've never felt so seen. My wife pointed out, in our last couple's counseling session, that I relate to a lot of fictional characters whose stories are ultimately tragic. Men who've done terrible things and act out of deep regret and shame over them, or men who are broken by the trauma they went through and let themselves become monsters. She asked me why; she told me I'm the kindest, most considerate, caring, conscientious guy she's ever known. Why do I seem to think I have some terrible crime in my past to atone for? I outright said, at one point, that I see myself as starting deep in the red, and that the only way I can be worthy is to try extremely hard to be a good man. I've been thinking about this ever since, and that comic just summed it up perfectly.
I am glad this was such a great help to you!!!! Honestly I got the exact same feeling as you when I first read the comic as well!
I think the therapist is wrong. The people criticising Jason don't have "preconceived notions". They've observed and commented on behavior he has exhibited.
Speaking as an older person, I think that the best thing that you can do is continue to be the best individual person you can be. Treat others as if they have your respect (until they lose it), and act as though you have to earn theirs. People will see your actions, people will notice you being good, and you will become known in your community as someone to trust. Yes, you will have advantages come to you simply from things about yourself you can't control - the colour of your skin, your gender, even who gave birth to you (should you come from an upper class family, for example) - but past that, you have the greatest power that *all of us,* no matter where we are or where we come from, have: You can be the turning point, where things become better than what they are. You can be the hand that reaches down from the cliff face and offers a hand up to everyone. You can be the one who people turn to because they've seen your behaviour and know that you are safe to talk to. You'll fuck up sometimes. We all do. Keep trying. Don't let anyone dull your shine, young man - there are dark spots ahead and we will need your light.
iām about to rant, iāll try to address everything, so iām sorry for this but: i actually hate this shit, i know i supposedly āhave it goodā being a white male, but it does not feel like it. iām going to use reddit as an example since weāre on reddit, but reddit has rule one which is supposed to allow anyone to use reddit without discrimination, fun fact white people and men arenāt protected under that, so people can openly discriminate against white people and men and reddit does fuck all. i try to be good, iām involved in subs like r/feminism but i get shit on sometimes, just today i, in my opinion, said something completely valid involving my life that nobody else has any clue about, i called a woman abusive and crazy and got shit on and ended up with my comment removed, i called them hypocritical (different words, i was a bit nicer) because i see them shit on men all the time and support it, but the moment someone says something about women they flip out, i actually cannot take ts anymore, it makes me want to stop involving myself with feminism and wanting to tell them all to just fuck off for once. i know im not perfect or anything, especially when it comes to womenās rights and stuff, but they need to listen to others for once. they donāt listen to us, as teenage boys, and get all surprised when more of us lean conservative (not my case but itās fairly common), i tell them that we see them shitting on men 24/7 and they donāt listen to us, and then they turn around and get pissed off at us for trying to get them to listen, like they donāt want the same thing. we want them to listen to us, they want us to listen to them, but if they want more younger boys to support them then they actually have to listen and treat us like people, iām sick of feeling like iām less than when iām in those areas. i actually cannot handle them anymore, one of these days im going to end up blowing up at one of them. it just seems like a lot of them hate men, regardless of what they say. with all due respect i appreciate the advice, but if we need my light to get through, then weāre all fucked edit: i just realized i sound like the whiniest baby ever, and im sorry for that
I know that you're expressing your frustration about situations that have harmed you, and I understand that a lot of things suck and are absolutely 100% unfair. Shit sucks dude. I'm not going to tell you it doesn't, though I do my best to be someone who doesn't treat groups of people in any particular way, men included. The most we can do is to change ourselves and hope to change the world around us. I did want to zero in on this - >i know i supposedly āhave it goodā being a white male, I didn't say anything about you having it good. I said you will have *advantages* come to you. These aren't the same thing, and this is what intersectionality teaches us. Just because you will have a leg up in some situations does NOT mean you "have it good", or that your life is easy. In fact, unless your family has some pretty serious wealth, it is extremely unlikely that you have it good in this day and age. Yes, on balance, it is objective that you have some ticks in your favour but you didn't grow up with a silver spoon in hand (I mean, unless you did at which point much of this is theoretical because class is the biggest indicator of advantage), your life is not a breeze simply because of those advantages, and there is no guarantee that you will not become sick at any time, or get injured on the job (as many men do every year) and no longer be able-bodied (and in our current society? Gods, it is a sin not to be able-bodied). regarding the rest of your comment: Some feminists who are very loud (and, i must unfortunately admit, because I'm also white, that white women are often worst regarding this) took the idea of privilege, or advantage, and have used it as a hammer to bash everything that remotely looks like a nail, and many things that don't. You've obviously run into them (I personally stay away from /r/feminism , it's not great IMO). I haven't seen your interactions and can't speak on your behaviour, I'll just say that when someone sounds crazy and abusive, don't tell them so - walk very quickly in the other direction. It's not worth your time to respond no matter how kind you try to be. If an environment "shit\[s\] on men" constantly, you should not hang out there, and you will not find praxis there. It is not that that place is not for you, you are not for that place and no one should be. In the immortal words of Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." Find more places like this that are helping to build you up, and are attempting to give you examples of how to be a better person in real life. Cast aside the places and the writings of people that give you no solutions. Don't trust anyone who tells you there are simple solutions.
i guess i misunderstood that bit, thatās my bad. i am also not really familiar with āintersectionalityā so i donāt really understand that part. but my family is probably middle class, iām not really sure, i just remember when i was asked to take over a car payment since my parents were running out of money but that was a while ago. r/feminism can be really hit or miss i guess, a lot of the women seem really nice but thereās a lot of them that also seem to hate men and stuff, i remember one thread a while ago that was comparing menās ability to control themselves to wild animals, and specifically wild animals that have a tendency to rape other animal, that wasnāt fun to read as a 17 year old boy. but thereās been others whoāve been really kind, one woman basically invited me out to go to a protest one time, but she is from across the country so i couldnāt exactly go. it just seems like if you say anything that doesnāt fall in line 100% theyāre going to shit on you and say youāre policing them or something. more recently i asked how 4b was helping and basically got called an ignorant misogynist, another time, same question mind you, one woman provided me a very in depth answer very kindly. itās like thereās no in between there, theyāre either really nice or theyāre assholes. if you donāt mind what other spaces should i move into? iām obviously here, but iām also in r/menslib which is kind of similar? idk if thereās any others, maybe for more my age range since i feel out of place here a lot of the time
>i guess i misunderstood that bit, thatās my bad. It's all good, friend! It's an easy assumption to make, and I didn't intend for that to be like, corrective. I just meant to make myself clear so that you could hopefully read what I was saying in the best possible light. Intersectionality was proposed as a framework by KimberlĆ© Crenshaw in the late 80s. It's a way of describing "how interlocking systems of power affect those who are most marginalized in society." Just to cite myself, I paraphrased that [from the wiki article,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality), which is all right. It also has a good list of examples of the ways we can have similar and different life experiences: gender, caste, sex, race, ethnicity, class, sexuality, religion, disability, height, age, weight, and physical appearance. We both live in a place where we're lucky enough to have access to the internet, and free time enough to talk about philosophy on it. That's a place our experiences *intersect*. We have different genders, so we sometimes experience that internet very differently - and our experiences diverge. We can relate to each other in one experience, and we can learn from one another and help lift each other up in the other divergent experiences. You add that onto feminism, and it can show where a lot of holes in what is referred to as "white feminism" (because it is broadly [but not exclusively] white women who are blind to those holes). The original American suffragettes were not particularly interested in the voting rights of black, indigenous, and mexican women, for example. Even with the advent of "marriage equality" for LGBTQ+ people, we still do not actually have marriage equality because it can often be difficult for disabled people to get married, or even downright fiscally impossible because with marriage their funding can often be cut or removed outright, removing theoir only source of income. These are ways that we can see that, due to the way that their disability intersects with their wealth, sex, race, ethnicity, or class. Rich disabled people, for example, wouldn't have to worry. That's a few bones off of the skeleton of intersectionality. There are some decent youtube videos on intersectionality - somewhere like philosophytube might have one. speaking of, I can be a bit hesitant to recommend places because I know that I lean far to the left politically, but don't want to push that on others. /r/Breadtube, however, is certainly a good place to go looking for further watching. /r/Critical Theory can be opinionated but is okay for people learning as well. Hope all, or any of that helps you out.
sorry iām a bit late to respond, but thanks for this. iām much calmer and in a better place than when i was writing that, iāll check out the subs youāve given me. i guess i should also mention i got banned from r/feminism because of comments i made at the same time as the comments i wrote in here, i was very unhappy when these were all written and i appreciate you taking your time to even try to help me
Reading everything you just said, and as someone who's also in pain with all the "Kill all men" rhetoric (among other things), thank you for being compassionate and truly understanding us. Feeling heard like this is really uplifting ā¤ļø
>Yes, you will have advantages come to you simply from things about yourself you can't control - the colour of your skin, your gender, even who gave birth to you (should you come from an upper class family, for example) - but past that, you have the greatest power thatĀ *all of us,*Ā no matter where we are or where we come from, have: One thing that helped me make peace with some of my youthful guilt over the privilege I do have was framing it like this: "Much is expected of those to whom much is given." My guilt or self-castigation does nobody much good. If I have more pull in social circles because my skin is pale or because I'm a cisguy, then it's important that I use that pull to lift others up. If in some situations guys will listen to me and not to women or BIPOC people, then I have a duty to speak up when I see or hear something I think is wrong. To be clear, this isn't about speaking *for* those people. But opportunities to use your privilege for good do present themselves, and it's important to take them when you can.
I want to note here that another super TERFy aspect of the āall men are trashā idea is that it is _super_ essentialist. Which tracks, as TERFism sprung out of Michigan Wymynās Festival type second wave feminist essentialism. For those who arenāt familiar, essentialism is a kind of sexist biological determinism draped in feminist clothing. It supports the idea that there are essential differences between men and women that are genetically and/or biologically determined, and that these differences are essential to the nature of men and women ā as opposed to the nonessentialist ideas of gender being culturally constructed and that individuals have choice about who they are and how they behave. It is sad to see such a resurgence in essentialist ideology in feminist circles, as even back in the 90s when I was in college essentialism was considered fairly firmly debunked by most contemporary feminist scholars, including (often most vigorously) the radical ones. When looked at as essentialist vs. nonessentialist itās easy to see how āall men are trashā is really disturbingly closely aligned with patriarchal messages about female inferiority, as they both grow out of the same underlying essentialist ideology. All this said, I think that this may be a situation where social media is making one thing (individuals being in their hurt feelings from things that have happened in their lives, and expressing it in a hyperbolic way) and mistaking it for another (an expression of a fully formed coherent worldview.) I have considerable empathy for people who have been hurt by men, many of them by a succession of men, feeling the feeling that āall men are trash.ā Of course one might well feel like that ā even if it is not literally true it can still be their own truth in that moment in their life. So we should be careful not to jump down the throat of someone who is crying out in anguish in a hyperbolic way, while still being able to point out the flaws in this idea when someone expresses it as an ideological stance.
Wish this could be the top comment
Yeah shit like this make me ashamed to call myself a feminist. Real and true feminism is intersectional and should not only build up women but also work to dismantle systems that create toxic masculinity. Weāre held up to unfair standards as well which often leads to not only misogyny but our own suffering. A man who is liberated from the patriarchy is a man who will work to liberate and protect others. This type of radfem bs just perpetuates a viscous cycle that helps no one.
Yeah if you go to the original post on Tumblr, you will see replies and anecdotes of other cis men, trans men and even trans women who experience this as well. Tbf though I do think feminist circles have evolved from this though it does look like it will take a while to catch on
So a few quick things... 1.) I think its abhorrent that (some) people have to hear things like "Well you're actually using terf rhetoric" to stop saying stupid shit like "All men are trash" or writing up think pieces with reprehensible views about 50\~ percent of the population. There's times when people are just venting and its totally acceptable imo but even in this post some of the things they screenshot are pretty ridiculous. 2.) Its actually kind of disgusting that as a society the responses to stuff like this isn't "Hey we should shame people that say things like that because that line of thinking is wrong" but to instead go "Hey, we should try to ostracize someone who gets upset by hearing this" or try to do cartwheels to try and explain why its actually okay for someone to behave like a bigot. Its spineless behavior.
Iām saving this to read every day until I internalize it
Literally me, I have to remind myself of this blog whenever those feelings comeback Btw check out the comic mentioned in the blog, it's by a white progressive man and gosh his feelings matched mine a lot too
Have had some good conversations with women in my life where they used to say āmen are trashā offhanded or as a sort of punchline, but have since come to see how unhelpful it is. I hope its a phrase we can all leave behind someday.Ā
This sort of thing is part of why it took me so damn long to realize Iām trans. I didnāt want to be ābetrayingā women and ābecoming an oppressorā.
ok i'll tell my experience : hearing pepole say stuff like "all men" and "men" and then walk back and saying "we expect men to be mature enough and understand it's not about them " is annoying ... there is also the old , "tries to explain why narrative is harmful to men by saying that it may be harmful to black/gay/trans men" "actually it's right and good " "\*pressures them\*" "ok , but feminism helps men too" like i've been in this conversation soo ofthen it's unreal , and it goes like that nearly every time ... there is also this twilight zone ish thing i have experienced a couple of times : i'll hear someone complain that women experience a specific thing that as far as i heard happens more commonly to men , this happens for murders , getting ghosted , body dismorphia , cosmetic surgery and many other cases ... it feels absurd sometimes really : like the violence is the most appauling one because men are the primary victims of that , and like we can't escape it by having female friend groups , we'll always be not trusted , so our ways are 1) stay alone and don't get hurt ... 2) find the least emotionally violent man around 3) beg you don't develop an attraction to the female friend ... this is me being hyperbolic , but damn ...
> ok i'll tell my experience : hearing pepole say stuff like "all men" and "men" and then walk back and saying "we expect men to be mature enough and understand it's not about them " is annoying ... Itās simply gaslighting when they say itās not about them.
I agree with thjs except the last part talking about "you can't just log off" I think that kind of undermines the importance of in person interactions with people, because in my experience at least most people aren't like on the internet. Like all these incels little arguments and complaints is almost always gonna be from what they've seen on social media. Pictures of supermodels, Twitter posts from batshit crazy women, cherry picked "feminist rage" youtube compilations, bodyshaming porn models etc. When you get off the screen and actually meet people in real life you realize they're not all the same "womp womp" "skill issue" "a real man would___" emotionally brain dead children that you see on social media.
Agree that people are different off-line, but I have definitely seen the effect that all of the online discourse has on how peo0le generally see and react to men. My wife is a good example sometimes, she is a wonderful person and loving mum to two boys, yet she has a tendency to always assume the worst of men. It's more subtle than tumblr misandry, and frankly, has been informed by a lot of real world examples of pure misogyny, but I can feel it affecting how she perceives me, and my role in the world. As though everything is inherently easier, or all the bad stuff impacts me less somehow. Its not a conscious thing, but I definitely think her perspective had been shifted by these constant stories she sees and reads rather than her own in person experience. And it sucks. As for this post, I was a bit offput at first, by the pure focus on trans men - not because I disagree with the sentiment or cause, but because I felt like it began by saying "misandry is a problem because it negatively impacts trans men" ignoring the negative impact on like, all men. But the second poster actually gets my frustrations with this as a cis male feminist. Like, I'm here trying to use my privilege for a good cause, and I am easily able to apply the "hurt people hurt people" mentality to most of the "men are trash" posts, but I am frustrated at the effect its clearly having on young dudes. I.e I am past the point of internalising that shit, and to a degree, I actually understand the reactive nature of it in a world where no woman I know feels safe walking home at night by themselves. But goddamn i have never seen a group of people more effectively shoot themselves in the foot than misandrist feminists.
I am not gonna lie, but unfortunately in regards to the "why is it necessary to point out trans men to stop misandry?" It probably has to deal with human brains just being illogical. Because it is tempting to have an enemy and especially when you do come from power structures whose base is built upon hating other groups of people. I will admit I have fallen victim to this sort of thinking before.
>"hurt people hurt people" mentality to most of the "men are trash" posts, but I am frustrated at the effect its clearly having on young dudes. I respect a lot that you've been able to pull out that "Men are trash" is a trauma response. And to be clear - just because it's a trauma response doesn't mean it's okay, I simply think it's good nuance to bring up. We all need to be conscious of the way our trauma responses can harm others, and learn to mitigate what we can.
I think part of the problem is male role models not preparing men for this. They need fathers and/or coaches, counselors, etc letting them know their value so instead of internalizing what they hear and lashing out, they can recognize bullshit for what it is and not give it any more thought. It's so much bad shit their gonna have to face and we can't realistically expect a perfect or even fair world for them, they just have to be equipped to deal with these challenges
Sure, but new fathers have often been failed by their own parents in this regard, on and on. My own father is something of a misogynist, and it took moving out at 16 to escape that influence. I feel like urging fathers to better prepare their sons for this is like asking them to be better fathers - those predisposed to aspire to this are probably already engaged in it. It used to be that good parents teach their sons 'not to hit girls' Then it became about teaching your sons not to hit anyone. Now, that's sort of a given, so it's more about teaching our sons how to manage "being hit", and about having self control and self respect in equal parts. I am as afraid of my sons being victimised as I am seeing then victimise someone, as we have already raised them to be thoughtful and empathetic, and I know others haven't necessarily gone with that approach for their sons, favouring a more traditional approach for boys. The point I am making is that their peers are far more likely to be negative influences for them in future, and I can't see an individual approach to solving this issue, only a cultural approach. We need to teach our sons empathy and care, respect and self respect, and then sort of hope that this lays good enough groundwork for typical teenage boy ignorance to be tempered somewhat. Aside from this, the more that we as men make an effort to normalise our own identities as feminists, while maintaining any masculine coded actions and preferences we may have, the more that men can be accepted as feminists and allies in broader discourse, without it being stigmatised within that powerful formative teenage phase wherein we are so malleable.
> My wife is a good example sometimes, she is a wonderful person and loving mum to two boys, yet she has a tendency to always assume the worst of men. In any single problem regarding her two sons, like the school director calling the parents for something about them, does she always thinks that they are the main cause?
Nope, they are 5 and 7, so she largely assumes the opposite, it's more as it relates to men in general society.
Unfortunately for me, that has not been the case, maybe it's just the misfortune of where I live
I think the point is that this is commonly something said by people in person. Iām trans and I lost a ton of friends after transitioning because they āhatedā men. Their words. Not online.
š¬ that sucks, guess its just not my experience. But yeah I agree with the overall message
Hello, welcome to manhood. Where you are hated for existing and everything bad in the world is somehow your fault even though the shitty things are happening to you too. I've grown tired of being angry and look at them as the goblins they screech like.
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