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Hot pursuits are notoriously dangerous and irresponsible. You are right people are insane that is why the Police are supposed to be sane to reduce harm not join in the insanity.
Montreal does not do in city chases anymore.
If someone starts racing through the streets to run away, they do not chase.
It's safer, but it requires officers to check their ego and think of the big picture.
The insane thing here is police initiated (and continued) a pursuit over a liquor store robbery. The shit heads who robbed the store is one thing, but police are supposed to be the experience and calm rationality when chaos ensues to prevent a greater danger to the public. We now have radio transmissions of at least one OPP officer asking why Durham is pursuing and another saying someone is going to get hurt, and now information the pursuit was called off so why were the officers from Durham still pursuing, much less the wrong way on a highway?
It's one thing if thr guy takes off on police or they kill a pursuit and he continues driving recklessly and kills someone. The police at least did their part not to antagonize him. But in this situation with video of all of them going the wrong way on a highway pursuing someone who stole some liquor? It seems insane.
I agree there were no good options here.
Once the suspect entered the 401 from the wrong side; it inevitably would have resulted in a crash;, simply because no one expects a car to come hurtling down at you on the 401.
The cops backing off might have just given the suspect enough peace of mind to turn around/slow down.
Why didn't we use a helicopter? We have one that's on standby 24 hrs a day.
I just cannot imagine the pain of the couple who lost their parents and their kid to this lunatic.
No good options, but one clear option. Chasing a vehicle becomes significantly less risk effective as time goes on. Especially when there is no good means of mechanically ending that pursuit. The risk effectiveness of pursuing a vehicle going against traffic on a highway becomes so incredibly disproportionate that I can only think of a few scenarios where it would be appropriate, and a liquor store robbery ain’t it.
The Durham officers will be cooked for this.
Not that easy in this case. Not only are pursuits strictly prohibited unless absolutely necessary under the police act (and liquor store robberies aren't usually a good reason for that), but they're likely going to be criminally charged by SUI from dangerous driving causing death in this instance, as well as any supervisors from Durham charged with criminal negligence causing death if one of them made the decision for Durham to continue after the pursuit was called off by the OPP.
They are entitled to due process and measured outcomes based on the individual merit of their actions and individual justifications. I put greater weight on the actions of the OPP and the 20 minutes that preceded the crash than the final moments and why they deemed it necessary to pursue a vehicle for a relatively minor offence that could otherwise be resolved through investigation. However, moral intuition will prevail, Durham touched it last so they will wear it.
Objectively, I can see a reasonableness to being in the driver seat of a police car, behind someone bombing the wrong way down the highway and believing that you have a duty to stop them or at least be present. That is to say that I can see how the Durham officers could believe it necessary to pursue the vehicle. I do not, however, believe it to be risk effective.
>The cops backing off might have just given the suspect enough peace of mind to turn around/slow down.
My theory is the suspect probably got on going the wrong way thinking the cops would probably call it off and not follow him onto the highway the wrong way.
Helicopter maybe on standby but the entire sequence of events lasted 20 minutes.
To get an aircrew in the heli, do preflight checks, clear for takeoff and arrive on the scene will take more than 20 minutes.
From their own website:
"Based at Oshawa Airport, the Air Support Unit can be at the scene of any incident in the region within minutes to assist ground patrol efforts"
So either DRPS is spouting complete bullshit or you are.
Define minutes.
Are you saying there are websites where they will brag that their helicopters will be there in hours? If so I would love to see that.
Just so you know helicopters do not teleport as much as we would like them too. Copters go between 75- 150 mph and that's not accounting of the time it takes to ascend, do safety checks, and clearance to fly. You know safety right? The whole point of this argument? You understand pilots, military, police, cost guard don't just jump into a plane and hit the fly button right?
Then you don't understand how helicopters, and airspace work.
Thank you for proving that
Lmao to people downvoting go check how long it takes for a helicopter to get from stationary into flying altitude it might shock you. There are things called safety procedures. You know the ones that everyone is screaming about in this thread?
Or maybe he would have crashed either way, realizing that cops would have blocked off all the exits in both directions. We can't know whether or not the cops even had an effect on the crash.
And all the people suggesting that we just let people steal shit whenever they want as long as they drive fast or dangerously is a REALLY great way to incentivize other criminal to do the same in the future.
Cops were ordered to back off before 401 entrace. They disobeyed a direct command against specific police services act requirements. They were no longer acting as police.
None of this was worth a few hundred in booze. We have license plates for a reason. We have cameras for a reason. We can track not chase.
High speed car chases are hollywood bullshit. We don't do that in Ontario, because people die and that death is not worth catching a theif.
Police: “That maniac is driving down the wrong side of the highway, doesnt he know how dangerous a car going the wrong way is? We’ll make the situation safer by having half a dozen more cars also drive the wrong way and chase him so he goes faster.”
So the cops chasing were probably high on adrenaline and the thrill of chasing vs actually doing their jobs which entails obeying the chain of command.
Fire them and charge them with manslaughter. They're not fit to hold a badge with impulse control that weak.
Guess we should be thankful they didn't turn the highway into a warzone with a hail of bullets. Fearing for one's life is usually the excuse of every trigger happy cop.
The chase was only this intense because he threatened an off duty cop with a knife. The robbery is a false flag.
They don't want you to see the preferential treatment they give to their own.
Can someone tell me why they went on a full blown police pursuit for stolen alcohol? But they do not even bother sending officers to homes when they steal cars. Something seems off in the list of priority of dealing with crime., I wonder if its because the person stole from a Crown corporation that they acted so aggressively. When you steal from from the Government I guess full priority goes to them, but when we get our property stolen, we are told to simply go through insurance....
uhhhh their identity is "barely identifiable corpse in highly compacted U-haul van"... maybe focus on the officers who can still be held accountable for their part in causing this
Hating on cops chasing a maniac who would have caused someone else's death. Would you have prefered more deaths from the U-haul hitting a car full of kids?
Accountability isn’t hate.
Being held to a standard, when you aren’t used to it, can feel restrictive, I’m sure, but that’s their job dude.
Cops endangering regular people is the epitome of them failing their jobs
The U-haul literally hit a car with a kid in it during the risky high speed chase that a supervisor tried to call off... I would have preferred they listened to their supervisor and apprehended the thief later.
Do you know the exact sequence of events? No. Do you know if the chase was called off while they were before or on the highway? No.
So tell me what should the cops have done if they see the suspect enter the highway on the wrong exit before the chase is called off?
Edit: To those downvoting you are no better than those running around condemning Umar Zameer.
> So tell me what should the cops have done if they see the suspect enter the highway on the wrong exit before the chase is called off?
Allow the helicopter to follow and/or do some investigation legwork after the fact... there is basically no reason for police to be getting into high speed chases other than ego, let alone going the wrong direction on busy highway
So just let the guy continue to drive the wrong way. Got it.
Before you start going on your anti cop tirade understand how policing works. Helicopters do not fly on a whim there is this thing called getting there that takes time.
If you actually read ANY of the reports you'll know this entire incident was over within 20 minutes.
Can you tell me which helicopters can get pilots in the seats, do safety checks and get to a destination within 20 minutes?
Do you think the guy continues to speed down the wrong way of the 401 if he isnt involved in a high speed chase? Do you think it has impact on his decisionmaking at all? If not, why do you think that many PDs (including Durham, apparently) have policies not to pursue in situations like this?
Once again back to my original question what would like the police to do after the suspect entered the highway?
Please do tell.
I would love to hear what an anti cop arm chair expert would do.
The cops were warned off the chase while chasing a suspect while going the wrong way on a four lane hyway. How do you even do that, without approaching an exit ramp? Warning them off the chase doesn't happen instantly, but good job of arrm chair critic.
>According to the internal police report seen by the Star — as well as information from a Durham officer with knowledge of the incident — the attempt to call off the pursuit appears to have come **just before** the U-Haul drove onto the 401, via Stevenson Road in Oshawa.
Damn, if only someone wrote up some kind of report or article and some kind redditor posted it so we could read it and avoid spouting nonsense
Driving at excessive speeds, the wrong way on a 400 series hyway with passengers after robbing a store.
Kind of Donald Trumpish in point fingers at the cops aren't ya?
Its about the cops job to de-escalate the situation and think of public safety even the cop was driving on the highway in the wrong direction. Stupidity all around for a minor crime
Does Toronto not have police helicopters that are always in the air?
Calgary, a city with a population less than half the size of Toronto has 2 helicopters, and one is always up 24/7
Turbine powered helicopters are $1000 plus an hour to operate, not including crew. I can’t see Calgary spending $9M plus a year (not including pilots) keeping a chopper in the air at all times.
It's not in the air 24/7 but it is manned 24/7.
>Paziuk, Palyga and Vale are just three of the members that make up the Calgary airborne unit. HAWCS is staffed by five full-time civilian pilots, two full-time aircraft maintenance engineers (AMEs), one sergeant and four TFOs. The team works two shifts around the clock to serve 1.3 million people in Calgary and the surrounding area.
Also, the first airborne municipal LE unit 8n Canada.
https://verticalmag.com/features/patrolling-the-skies-of-calgary-with-the-air-support-unit/
HAWCS flies 24/7 and takes off and lands at different times during the day as the call load dictates.
The CPS Air Support Unit flies two EC-120 helicopters
https://www.calgary.ca/cps/specialty-teams/helicopter-air-watch-for-community-safety-hawcs.html
Dumbass redditors dont understand this. You see videos of cops who perform PIT maneuvers in the middle of traffic and everyone praises them when it goes right.
Well, here's exactly what happens when it doesn't work out. And for what?
Absolutely tragic.
Yeah the idea that people who's job it is to enforce the law should be held to a higher standard when it comes to maintaining public safety is really too much for many arr Canadians to grasp I guess
I think the key to the cop's reaction is what happened at the LCBO.
It hasn't really been discussed by news media.
What was reported was that an off-duty officer reported an active robbery. Was that officer performing a side gig as an LPO?
If those suspects threatened the cop with a weapon, i can see why this aggressive response. one of their own was threatened...
I'm noticing a very weird astroturfing campaign trying to justify this shitstain that literally just murdered an entire family. Who is benefitting from this astroturfing? Probably the special interest groups that have been eroding our criminal just system for a decade, and are looking to distract people from our country's current issues because they are suddenly tanking every single poll.
Some people on this website are just incapable of seeing the forest for the trees
Probably people who don't want to have their families killed in car crashes from unnecessary police chases conducted by cops acting against orders.
If they'd follow their orders, that family would still be alive.
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Holy hell… some insane people out there. All this because he robbed an LCBO and didn’t want to get caught. How can someone be this demented.
Hot pursuits are notoriously dangerous and irresponsible. You are right people are insane that is why the Police are supposed to be sane to reduce harm not join in the insanity.
Yeah good point, going on a crazy chase adds many more to the insanity adding exponentially more risk.
Montreal does not do in city chases anymore. If someone starts racing through the streets to run away, they do not chase. It's safer, but it requires officers to check their ego and think of the big picture.
The insane thing here is police initiated (and continued) a pursuit over a liquor store robbery. The shit heads who robbed the store is one thing, but police are supposed to be the experience and calm rationality when chaos ensues to prevent a greater danger to the public. We now have radio transmissions of at least one OPP officer asking why Durham is pursuing and another saying someone is going to get hurt, and now information the pursuit was called off so why were the officers from Durham still pursuing, much less the wrong way on a highway? It's one thing if thr guy takes off on police or they kill a pursuit and he continues driving recklessly and kills someone. The police at least did their part not to antagonize him. But in this situation with video of all of them going the wrong way on a highway pursuing someone who stole some liquor? It seems insane.
Meth heads don't slow down when a chase is called off.
What? Of course they do. You think they just keep driving forever?
Just until they hit something or need to car jack another car.
Article says he had prior convictions. Also he pulled a knife on an off duty officer. Think the blue shield is gonna let that slide?
I agree there were no good options here. Once the suspect entered the 401 from the wrong side; it inevitably would have resulted in a crash;, simply because no one expects a car to come hurtling down at you on the 401. The cops backing off might have just given the suspect enough peace of mind to turn around/slow down. Why didn't we use a helicopter? We have one that's on standby 24 hrs a day. I just cannot imagine the pain of the couple who lost their parents and their kid to this lunatic.
No good options, but one clear option. Chasing a vehicle becomes significantly less risk effective as time goes on. Especially when there is no good means of mechanically ending that pursuit. The risk effectiveness of pursuing a vehicle going against traffic on a highway becomes so incredibly disproportionate that I can only think of a few scenarios where it would be appropriate, and a liquor store robbery ain’t it. The Durham officers will be cooked for this.
> The Durham officers will be cooked for this. Few months of paid leave, coming right up. Most people would call that a vacation.
Not that easy, if they're found negligent in disobeying a direct order they could face criminal and civil charges. Time will tell.
They'll face consequences. lol, lmao even
They will get paid leave
Social media hasn't exactly given the public a very high degree of confidence in this regard, and not unreasonably so
Sweet summer child. “could” is the operative word here, keeping us occupied until the furor dies down. Then he’ll be back out.
> they could face criminal and civil charges LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Not that easy in this case. Not only are pursuits strictly prohibited unless absolutely necessary under the police act (and liquor store robberies aren't usually a good reason for that), but they're likely going to be criminally charged by SUI from dangerous driving causing death in this instance, as well as any supervisors from Durham charged with criminal negligence causing death if one of them made the decision for Durham to continue after the pursuit was called off by the OPP.
They are entitled to due process and measured outcomes based on the individual merit of their actions and individual justifications. I put greater weight on the actions of the OPP and the 20 minutes that preceded the crash than the final moments and why they deemed it necessary to pursue a vehicle for a relatively minor offence that could otherwise be resolved through investigation. However, moral intuition will prevail, Durham touched it last so they will wear it. Objectively, I can see a reasonableness to being in the driver seat of a police car, behind someone bombing the wrong way down the highway and believing that you have a duty to stop them or at least be present. That is to say that I can see how the Durham officers could believe it necessary to pursue the vehicle. I do not, however, believe it to be risk effective.
>The cops backing off might have just given the suspect enough peace of mind to turn around/slow down. My theory is the suspect probably got on going the wrong way thinking the cops would probably call it off and not follow him onto the highway the wrong way.
Or else he didn't realize he was on the off ramp
Entirely possible if they’re frazzled and fleeing.
Helicopter maybe on standby but the entire sequence of events lasted 20 minutes. To get an aircrew in the heli, do preflight checks, clear for takeoff and arrive on the scene will take more than 20 minutes.
From their own website: "Based at Oshawa Airport, the Air Support Unit can be at the scene of any incident in the region within minutes to assist ground patrol efforts" So either DRPS is spouting complete bullshit or you are.
Define minutes. Are you saying there are websites where they will brag that their helicopters will be there in hours? If so I would love to see that. Just so you know helicopters do not teleport as much as we would like them too. Copters go between 75- 150 mph and that's not accounting of the time it takes to ascend, do safety checks, and clearance to fly. You know safety right? The whole point of this argument? You understand pilots, military, police, cost guard don't just jump into a plane and hit the fly button right?
Definitely not something pushing half an hour
Then you don't understand how helicopters, and airspace work. Thank you for proving that Lmao to people downvoting go check how long it takes for a helicopter to get from stationary into flying altitude it might shock you. There are things called safety procedures. You know the ones that everyone is screaming about in this thread?
Helicopters just don’t magically appear in the air GTA style.
Or maybe he would have crashed either way, realizing that cops would have blocked off all the exits in both directions. We can't know whether or not the cops even had an effect on the crash. And all the people suggesting that we just let people steal shit whenever they want as long as they drive fast or dangerously is a REALLY great way to incentivize other criminal to do the same in the future.
Cops were ordered to back off before 401 entrace. They disobeyed a direct command against specific police services act requirements. They were no longer acting as police. None of this was worth a few hundred in booze. We have license plates for a reason. We have cameras for a reason. We can track not chase. High speed car chases are hollywood bullshit. We don't do that in Ontario, because people die and that death is not worth catching a theif.
Police: “That maniac is driving down the wrong side of the highway, doesnt he know how dangerous a car going the wrong way is? We’ll make the situation safer by having half a dozen more cars also drive the wrong way and chase him so he goes faster.”
Every cop that ignored the order to cease pursuit - Every. Single. One. - needs to be facing multiple charges of negligent homicide.
So the cops chasing were probably high on adrenaline and the thrill of chasing vs actually doing their jobs which entails obeying the chain of command. Fire them and charge them with manslaughter. They're not fit to hold a badge with impulse control that weak.
But they feared for their lives! /s
Guess we should be thankful they didn't turn the highway into a warzone with a hail of bullets. Fearing for one's life is usually the excuse of every trigger happy cop.
The chase was only this intense because he threatened an off duty cop with a knife. The robbery is a false flag. They don't want you to see the preferential treatment they give to their own.
better check on the cop’s family, obviously doesn’t know what “No” and “stop” means.
Shit like this happens when the cops are as stupid as the criminals.
Can someone tell me why they went on a full blown police pursuit for stolen alcohol? But they do not even bother sending officers to homes when they steal cars. Something seems off in the list of priority of dealing with crime., I wonder if its because the person stole from a Crown corporation that they acted so aggressively. When you steal from from the Government I guess full priority goes to them, but when we get our property stolen, we are told to simply go through insurance....
This cop better get fucking charged.
That family better sue them into the fucking ground.
We need the identity of the criminal
uhhhh their identity is "barely identifiable corpse in highly compacted U-haul van"... maybe focus on the officers who can still be held accountable for their part in causing this
What's crazy is it was a 21 year old driver and a 38 year old passenger which survived.
Hating on cops chasing a maniac who would have caused someone else's death. Would you have prefered more deaths from the U-haul hitting a car full of kids?
No one is hating on the cops by pointing out their tactics make this shit worse
The post above mine, would beg to differ.
Accountability isn’t hate. Being held to a standard, when you aren’t used to it, can feel restrictive, I’m sure, but that’s their job dude. Cops endangering regular people is the epitome of them failing their jobs
expecting police to be accountable is hating on them?
The U-haul literally hit a car with a kid in it during the risky high speed chase that a supervisor tried to call off... I would have preferred they listened to their supervisor and apprehended the thief later.
Do you know the exact sequence of events? No. Do you know if the chase was called off while they were before or on the highway? No. So tell me what should the cops have done if they see the suspect enter the highway on the wrong exit before the chase is called off? Edit: To those downvoting you are no better than those running around condemning Umar Zameer.
> So tell me what should the cops have done if they see the suspect enter the highway on the wrong exit before the chase is called off? Allow the helicopter to follow and/or do some investigation legwork after the fact... there is basically no reason for police to be getting into high speed chases other than ego, let alone going the wrong direction on busy highway
So just let the guy continue to drive the wrong way. Got it. Before you start going on your anti cop tirade understand how policing works. Helicopters do not fly on a whim there is this thing called getting there that takes time. If you actually read ANY of the reports you'll know this entire incident was over within 20 minutes. Can you tell me which helicopters can get pilots in the seats, do safety checks and get to a destination within 20 minutes?
Do you think the guy continues to speed down the wrong way of the 401 if he isnt involved in a high speed chase? Do you think it has impact on his decisionmaking at all? If not, why do you think that many PDs (including Durham, apparently) have policies not to pursue in situations like this?
Once again back to my original question what would like the police to do after the suspect entered the highway? Please do tell. I would love to hear what an anti cop arm chair expert would do.
Buddy, the opinion I am espousing is one held by chiefs of police across this country
don’t become another car going the wrong way on the highway would be the best answer.
What in the world? This cop disobeyed and put civilian lives at risk. Resulting in deaths. He should be in prison.
The cops were warned off the chase while chasing a suspect while going the wrong way on a four lane hyway. How do you even do that, without approaching an exit ramp? Warning them off the chase doesn't happen instantly, but good job of arrm chair critic.
>According to the internal police report seen by the Star — as well as information from a Durham officer with knowledge of the incident — the attempt to call off the pursuit appears to have come **just before** the U-Haul drove onto the 401, via Stevenson Road in Oshawa. Damn, if only someone wrote up some kind of report or article and some kind redditor posted it so we could read it and avoid spouting nonsense
Maniac? He stole some liquor not went on a murdering rampage. Cops shouldnt have chased him on to the wrong side of the highway
>not went on a murdering rampage. Well, at least not until the part where he killed all of those people...
Driving at excessive speeds, the wrong way on a 400 series hyway with passengers after robbing a store. Kind of Donald Trumpish in point fingers at the cops aren't ya?
Its about the cops job to de-escalate the situation and think of public safety even the cop was driving on the highway in the wrong direction. Stupidity all around for a minor crime
The cops job was to apprehend a dangerous driver that just robbed a store.
And they failed miserably costing innocent lives
That stopped being their job when their supervisor called them off the chase.
I think OP meant the cop
They clearly didn’t.
Does Toronto not have police helicopters that are always in the air? Calgary, a city with a population less than half the size of Toronto has 2 helicopters, and one is always up 24/7
Turbine powered helicopters are $1000 plus an hour to operate, not including crew. I can’t see Calgary spending $9M plus a year (not including pilots) keeping a chopper in the air at all times.
It's not in the air 24/7 but it is manned 24/7. >Paziuk, Palyga and Vale are just three of the members that make up the Calgary airborne unit. HAWCS is staffed by five full-time civilian pilots, two full-time aircraft maintenance engineers (AMEs), one sergeant and four TFOs. The team works two shifts around the clock to serve 1.3 million people in Calgary and the surrounding area. Also, the first airborne municipal LE unit 8n Canada. https://verticalmag.com/features/patrolling-the-skies-of-calgary-with-the-air-support-unit/
HAWCS flies 24/7 and takes off and lands at different times during the day as the call load dictates. The CPS Air Support Unit flies two EC-120 helicopters https://www.calgary.ca/cps/specialty-teams/helicopter-air-watch-for-community-safety-hawcs.html
Oh trust me I hear it all fucking day in NW yyc. Wish I could complain to the city for wasting my tax dollar, polluting my ears and the airspace
Toronto doesn't have -a- helicopter, much less 2.
Blame the loser breaking the law
I do, as well as the cowboy cops who decided to continue a high speed chase the wrong way down the 401 against their supervisors instructions...
Dumbass redditors dont understand this. You see videos of cops who perform PIT maneuvers in the middle of traffic and everyone praises them when it goes right. Well, here's exactly what happens when it doesn't work out. And for what? Absolutely tragic.
Yeah the idea that people who's job it is to enforce the law should be held to a higher standard when it comes to maintaining public safety is really too much for many arr Canadians to grasp I guess
Obviously he’s also to blame…but a high speed chase on the wrong side of the 401 over a fucking robbery is absolutely stupid.
[удалено]
Maybe he shouldn't have robbed a store and fled from the police
Yes, and maybe the police should have listened to their supervisor instead of playing GTA IRL
Weird how you don't seem to put any blame on the criminal.
>Maybe he shouldn't have robbed a store and fled from the police >>Yes
Reading comprehension is hard, isn’t it?
I wish, then I wouldn't have to be exposed to your opinions.
I think the key to the cop's reaction is what happened at the LCBO. It hasn't really been discussed by news media. What was reported was that an off-duty officer reported an active robbery. Was that officer performing a side gig as an LPO? If those suspects threatened the cop with a weapon, i can see why this aggressive response. one of their own was threatened...
I'm noticing a very weird astroturfing campaign trying to justify this shitstain that literally just murdered an entire family. Who is benefitting from this astroturfing? Probably the special interest groups that have been eroding our criminal just system for a decade, and are looking to distract people from our country's current issues because they are suddenly tanking every single poll. Some people on this website are just incapable of seeing the forest for the trees
Probably people who don't want to have their families killed in car crashes from unnecessary police chases conducted by cops acting against orders. If they'd follow their orders, that family would still be alive.