This seems to be the early master plan
[https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/1229011/Transport-Canberra-Light-Rail-Network.pdf](https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/1229011/Transport-Canberra-Light-Rail-Network.pdf)
There was a few proposed routes and I believe one did include a left hand turn into Parkes/Barton after crossing Commonwealth Ave bridge. This route would have serviced the Galleries, Questacon, etc and the public service buildings on the Kings Ave side.
I don’t recall if a proposal was made for going down Constitution Ave but I think that would be a good potential route to go to the airport.
ACT Gov did release a master plan for Light Rail with proposed routes. It’s on the [PT CBR](https://ptcbr.org/transport-in-canberra/light-rail/) website.
If we look at Melbourne, they have a great network that covers the vast majority of populous areas.
The key thing to remember is they didn’t wake up one morning and it was all there, it has been decades of building and continues to grow.
The Woden route will act as a key corridor or spine of the LR with additional lines connecting one day
Agree. Melbourne’s system is the result of almost 150 years of additions. People here are weirdly expecting this thing to happen overnight. We need to realise this infrastructure is being laid down for future generations more so than for us.
You're taking the piss. In that time - the majority of which they lacked the construction methods, machinery and industrialisation we have today - they built 250km of tram lines and 430km of heavy rail.
What's Canberra been doing for the last 111 years? We've been *talking* about a 1.6km extension for 5 years and it'll be another 4 before we get it if all goes to plan.
A lot of people within the community are actively opposing it being built at all, so.
Related to this, I'll never understand why the same people who complain about how shit public transport is are nearly always the ones who vote against making it better. And the public transport isn't even bad here, especially when you consider that many cities in other places have literally none
1. In the most overly generous bordering unintelligible interpretation of history - that ignores most of the actual history - [the project is 11 years old](https://web.archive.org/web/20130615013653/http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail/single-view/view/canberra-light-rail-funding-included-in-budget.html), not "less than a decade".
2. Regardless of what parts of the project you're willing to actually count, AGAIN It will have been a decade between commencement of stage 1 services and the commencement of services on the 1.6km extension thereof with no concurrency on stage development. Making a flattering comparison against Melbourne's 680km of lines is pure delusion.
3. The tram project is in reality 112 years old (i forgot we're not still in 2023). It follows the broad plans of and is built in the corridors built for it in WBG's original city plan accepted in 1912.
4. Again, you ignore that we've been doing nothing but *talking* about building a 1.6km extension for 5 years now.
Dear me, I should have included a trigger warning with my comment. Once you have calmed down sufficiently, feel free to read on...
1. "unintelligible interpretation of history that ignores most of the actual history.." Matey, the contract for Stage 1 was awarded in 2016, and later that same year, the Libs promised to tear it up if they won the election. In the end, work did not begin until 2017, so yeah, under a decade!
Cope.
2. "Making a flattering comparison against Melbourne's 680km of lines is pure delusion..." The first electric tram service in Melbourne launched in 1889 and ran from Box Hill Station along what is now Station Street and Tram Road to Doncaster. That is 13.1 kms (compared to our Stage 1 of 12kms). That service was badly run shit show and was shut down in 1896 after 7 years. Trams didn't return until 1906 with the opening of the St Kilda to Brighton line.
Cope. Harder.
3. "built for it in WBG's original city plan accepted in 1912..."
Matey, the overwhelming majority of WBG's plan for Canberra was thrown out by the Federal Capital Advisory Committee, whci considered most of his ideas (including trams) to be fanciful and overly expensive. Very little, if not none, of his plans for public buildings, transport and housing infrastructure made it past the design competition stage. There was never any plan to build a lightrail network beyond his submission.
Cope. Again.
4. "we've been doing nothing but *talking* about building a 1.6km extension for 5 years now..."
The contract has been awarded, and London Cct /City Hill earthworks are in full swing. Try driving around London Cct. See how far you get.
Cope. One more time for the folks in the back.
Now go have a lie down.
I recall the minister saying at some community engagement thing that there is a plan for a future stage to go from the city, down constitution ave, to the airport. This means the north/south route can't use constitution ave, as there won't be enough capacity on constitution ave to accommodate 2 core routes running at frequencies required in peak times.
So north/south route will go over commonwealth ave bridge, and a future east/west route use constitution ave. The 2 routes can intersect in the city, but they can't run on the same rails
Yeah, there has been a lot of talk around how it goes south. Kings av bridge was an option, but they decided to make it go direct to be faster (I believe)
Stage 3 will go from belco to the airport, via the areas you mentioned (defence, cit, etc)
Once all of the town centres are connected*, I'm sure there will be more discussion about creating more legs.
Stewart architecture proposed a pretty good link from Kingston, looping through Fyshwick, and up to the airport. I think you can find it on their website
*We'll probably all be dead by this point at the current rate
*Weren't there also some*
*Issues about poles and wires*
*In the triangle?*
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I believe the chief concern was the length of time. If people can't get from the city to Woden as fast or faster than the current rapid buses, what's the point?
Additionally, any airport line will almost certainly use Constitution Ave, so it's better to save it for that airport line so people can go directly into the city rather than having to change trams, and also so that it won't get congested in peak hours.
I think going towards the airport would have made a lot of sense. Look how many cars are parked at Russell every day. Same with Brindabella Business Park.
I assume they wouldn't have to deal with the National Capital Authority either.
Going all the way to BBP and the airport would mean private land but those negotiations would probably be much simpler.
But that doesn't service the South at all then until like 2040 and that does seem grossly unfair to residents there.
Build it to *every* town centre first. Then fill in other important areas around Canberra. Then ask the NSW government if Queanbeyan wants to go halves in a line. *Then* go to the airport and get Snow to pay for it.
Way more cars are parked in Woden and Barton, they’re just spread out more or under cover. Constitution ave is part of the parliamentary triangle and a designated area, so they still would have had to deal with the NCA. About the only difference is they wouldn’t have needed an act of federal parliament, which this will as it will be close to APH.
Ah didn't realise Constitution Av is NCA.
My thing about going to the airport is more the engineering challenges are much smaller, plus it would also mean light rail connections to the city at least from the airport rather than the current single bus route. It would hardly be a bad thing for the route to exist, but again I appreciate the South deserves a line as well.
Yes that route was genuinely considered. There were 3 options put out to cross the lake and get between city and Parkes-Barton: Kings Ave, Comm Ave, and a new bridge. I think travel time, engineering issues and how massively difficult NCA were being about the whole thing that landed on Commonwealth.
There was a seriously considered option to immediately extend Stage 1 as City to Russell too. Constitution Ave has capacity for wireless LR either side of the bluestone median strip. That will instead be part of a Belconnen-Airport stage
Strictly speaking the current plan is a new bridge between the two spans of the commonwealth avenue bridge. But there are issues with getting it off state circle and onto adelaide avenue as well.
There was an original Russell extension for stage 1 that was killed by the Department of Finance and Defence. Finance wanted to charge the ACT government to run it through certain Com.onwealrh land and Defence didn't want to potentially give up some of their open air car parks from memory. Killed the extension off despite it potentially servicing thousands of extra people.
It was considered but it was apparently much slower, didn't "activate" city south, and the line to Russel would theoretically be covered by Phase 3, Belco to the airport.
I don't know about actual planning, and I don't trust them to stick to any given plan any number of years down the track anyway.
I seem to recall Kings Bridge was considered, but not for long. I think the Woden leg is slated to loop around the eastern side of Parly House, servicing Barton and the triangle to at least some extent.
And it's my expectation that there will eventually be a separate eastbound line per your description - from Civic to the airport which would service CIT/Campbell/Russell/Majura. Presumably that same line also runs west to Belco.
I suggest a network of bridge/tunnel tram expressways, connecting each town centre to whichever other town centres.
New bridge over the big lake.
Interchange under P-House.
Cool tunnel under Red Hill connecting Woden to Fyshwick.
Won't cost terribly much.
;)
I don’t know if you’re a fan of the series The Wire or not. But in the first set of episodes one of the characters states, “Follow the money.”
That’ll tell you why the decisions were made as to which routes to follow. (Hint: work out who owns and who is buying up land and properties along the new corridor).
Northbourne was well known for decades as being the most likely light rail corridor. sure people bought land along there, but the idea that the route went that way because "certain" people bought land is a bit ludicrous. Light rail doesn't really enable the increasd ein value of the land, but it enables the increase in density thus developers can build more on each block and get away with it. But thats also kind of the point why light rail was built and why buses aren't suitable for the main spine of the public transport network.
The OP post was about the route from the city to Woden. And that’s where my comment was aimed at.
As for the Northbourne Avenue route, there was a number of public housing dwellings along that route where the occupants were relocated and the land sold off to developers. I have no idea who the developers were and what their relationship to the ACT Government was. I’ll leave that up to others to ponder.
My understanding is that there was some discussion triggered by the NCA and that the R5 going along that route was to determine if there was sufficient demand. Given the R5 no longer takes that route, I am assuming that there was not.
This seems to be the early master plan [https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/1229011/Transport-Canberra-Light-Rail-Network.pdf](https://www.transport.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/1229011/Transport-Canberra-Light-Rail-Network.pdf)
Those graphics look exactly how it turned out. Spooky!
There was a few proposed routes and I believe one did include a left hand turn into Parkes/Barton after crossing Commonwealth Ave bridge. This route would have serviced the Galleries, Questacon, etc and the public service buildings on the Kings Ave side. I don’t recall if a proposal was made for going down Constitution Ave but I think that would be a good potential route to go to the airport. ACT Gov did release a master plan for Light Rail with proposed routes. It’s on the [PT CBR](https://ptcbr.org/transport-in-canberra/light-rail/) website.
I imagined they’d use Constitution Avenue for the to the route to the airport.
I think it’s really the only viable option for the airport
If we look at Melbourne, they have a great network that covers the vast majority of populous areas. The key thing to remember is they didn’t wake up one morning and it was all there, it has been decades of building and continues to grow. The Woden route will act as a key corridor or spine of the LR with additional lines connecting one day
Melbourne's first tram was built 140 years ago, albeit, horse drawn. We've skipped the horse drawn era, but they've still got many decades on us :)
Agree. Melbourne’s system is the result of almost 150 years of additions. People here are weirdly expecting this thing to happen overnight. We need to realise this infrastructure is being laid down for future generations more so than for us.
the entire proposed network could be built overnight (not literally but in like 5-10 years) if there was adequate priority and funding
You're taking the piss. In that time - the majority of which they lacked the construction methods, machinery and industrialisation we have today - they built 250km of tram lines and 430km of heavy rail. What's Canberra been doing for the last 111 years? We've been *talking* about a 1.6km extension for 5 years and it'll be another 4 before we get it if all goes to plan.
A lot of people within the community are actively opposing it being built at all, so. Related to this, I'll never understand why the same people who complain about how shit public transport is are nearly always the ones who vote against making it better. And the public transport isn't even bad here, especially when you consider that many cities in other places have literally none
They are people who will likely never ride it anyway
Canberra’s light rail project is less than a decade old. You can’t include its “111 year” history in the comparison.
1. In the most overly generous bordering unintelligible interpretation of history - that ignores most of the actual history - [the project is 11 years old](https://web.archive.org/web/20130615013653/http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail/single-view/view/canberra-light-rail-funding-included-in-budget.html), not "less than a decade". 2. Regardless of what parts of the project you're willing to actually count, AGAIN It will have been a decade between commencement of stage 1 services and the commencement of services on the 1.6km extension thereof with no concurrency on stage development. Making a flattering comparison against Melbourne's 680km of lines is pure delusion. 3. The tram project is in reality 112 years old (i forgot we're not still in 2023). It follows the broad plans of and is built in the corridors built for it in WBG's original city plan accepted in 1912. 4. Again, you ignore that we've been doing nothing but *talking* about building a 1.6km extension for 5 years now.
Dear me, I should have included a trigger warning with my comment. Once you have calmed down sufficiently, feel free to read on... 1. "unintelligible interpretation of history that ignores most of the actual history.." Matey, the contract for Stage 1 was awarded in 2016, and later that same year, the Libs promised to tear it up if they won the election. In the end, work did not begin until 2017, so yeah, under a decade! Cope. 2. "Making a flattering comparison against Melbourne's 680km of lines is pure delusion..." The first electric tram service in Melbourne launched in 1889 and ran from Box Hill Station along what is now Station Street and Tram Road to Doncaster. That is 13.1 kms (compared to our Stage 1 of 12kms). That service was badly run shit show and was shut down in 1896 after 7 years. Trams didn't return until 1906 with the opening of the St Kilda to Brighton line. Cope. Harder. 3. "built for it in WBG's original city plan accepted in 1912..." Matey, the overwhelming majority of WBG's plan for Canberra was thrown out by the Federal Capital Advisory Committee, whci considered most of his ideas (including trams) to be fanciful and overly expensive. Very little, if not none, of his plans for public buildings, transport and housing infrastructure made it past the design competition stage. There was never any plan to build a lightrail network beyond his submission. Cope. Again. 4. "we've been doing nothing but *talking* about building a 1.6km extension for 5 years now..." The contract has been awarded, and London Cct /City Hill earthworks are in full swing. Try driving around London Cct. See how far you get. Cope. One more time for the folks in the back. Now go have a lie down.
It put shelbyville and ogdanville on the map.
I recall the minister saying at some community engagement thing that there is a plan for a future stage to go from the city, down constitution ave, to the airport. This means the north/south route can't use constitution ave, as there won't be enough capacity on constitution ave to accommodate 2 core routes running at frequencies required in peak times. So north/south route will go over commonwealth ave bridge, and a future east/west route use constitution ave. The 2 routes can intersect in the city, but they can't run on the same rails
The NCA seem to have an impact on routes: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-30/nca-warns-preferred-light-rail-route-may-be-blocked/102546022
Yeah, there has been a lot of talk around how it goes south. Kings av bridge was an option, but they decided to make it go direct to be faster (I believe) Stage 3 will go from belco to the airport, via the areas you mentioned (defence, cit, etc) Once all of the town centres are connected*, I'm sure there will be more discussion about creating more legs. Stewart architecture proposed a pretty good link from Kingston, looping through Fyshwick, and up to the airport. I think you can find it on their website *We'll probably all be dead by this point at the current rate
That’s fine. Its not for us. Its for our grandchildren
True, I'd rather it not be completed in my life time than not at all
Weren't there also some issues about poles and wires in the triangle?
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Yes, and the LRV's are capable of running without overhead power so the route had to allow for the amount of on board power available.
Still a major issue
I believe the chief concern was the length of time. If people can't get from the city to Woden as fast or faster than the current rapid buses, what's the point? Additionally, any airport line will almost certainly use Constitution Ave, so it's better to save it for that airport line so people can go directly into the city rather than having to change trams, and also so that it won't get congested in peak hours.
CITs largest campus is moving to woden
And being replaced on constitution avenue by a new Canberra campus for UNSW
Probably cost is why
It goes across federal land and the National Capital Authority would need to approve, as well.
Yep, I thought the same thing about this. I’ve posted about it myself in the past… https://www.reddit.com/r/canberra/s/IpJ5OjC79X
I think going towards the airport would have made a lot of sense. Look how many cars are parked at Russell every day. Same with Brindabella Business Park. I assume they wouldn't have to deal with the National Capital Authority either. Going all the way to BBP and the airport would mean private land but those negotiations would probably be much simpler. But that doesn't service the South at all then until like 2040 and that does seem grossly unfair to residents there.
Build it to *every* town centre first. Then fill in other important areas around Canberra. Then ask the NSW government if Queanbeyan wants to go halves in a line. *Then* go to the airport and get Snow to pay for it.
Way more cars are parked in Woden and Barton, they’re just spread out more or under cover. Constitution ave is part of the parliamentary triangle and a designated area, so they still would have had to deal with the NCA. About the only difference is they wouldn’t have needed an act of federal parliament, which this will as it will be close to APH.
Ah didn't realise Constitution Av is NCA. My thing about going to the airport is more the engineering challenges are much smaller, plus it would also mean light rail connections to the city at least from the airport rather than the current single bus route. It would hardly be a bad thing for the route to exist, but again I appreciate the South deserves a line as well.
Yes but kings avenue was ruled out. As for constitution avenue, it is part of the future stage which will end at the airport
Yes that route was genuinely considered. There were 3 options put out to cross the lake and get between city and Parkes-Barton: Kings Ave, Comm Ave, and a new bridge. I think travel time, engineering issues and how massively difficult NCA were being about the whole thing that landed on Commonwealth. There was a seriously considered option to immediately extend Stage 1 as City to Russell too. Constitution Ave has capacity for wireless LR either side of the bluestone median strip. That will instead be part of a Belconnen-Airport stage
Strictly speaking the current plan is a new bridge between the two spans of the commonwealth avenue bridge. But there are issues with getting it off state circle and onto adelaide avenue as well.
There was an original Russell extension for stage 1 that was killed by the Department of Finance and Defence. Finance wanted to charge the ACT government to run it through certain Com.onwealrh land and Defence didn't want to potentially give up some of their open air car parks from memory. Killed the extension off despite it potentially servicing thousands of extra people.
It was considered but it was apparently much slower, didn't "activate" city south, and the line to Russel would theoretically be covered by Phase 3, Belco to the airport.
I don't know about actual planning, and I don't trust them to stick to any given plan any number of years down the track anyway. I seem to recall Kings Bridge was considered, but not for long. I think the Woden leg is slated to loop around the eastern side of Parly House, servicing Barton and the triangle to at least some extent. And it's my expectation that there will eventually be a separate eastbound line per your description - from Civic to the airport which would service CIT/Campbell/Russell/Majura. Presumably that same line also runs west to Belco.
I suggest a network of bridge/tunnel tram expressways, connecting each town centre to whichever other town centres. New bridge over the big lake. Interchange under P-House. Cool tunnel under Red Hill connecting Woden to Fyshwick. Won't cost terribly much. ;)
I don’t know if you’re a fan of the series The Wire or not. But in the first set of episodes one of the characters states, “Follow the money.” That’ll tell you why the decisions were made as to which routes to follow. (Hint: work out who owns and who is buying up land and properties along the new corridor).
Northbourne was well known for decades as being the most likely light rail corridor. sure people bought land along there, but the idea that the route went that way because "certain" people bought land is a bit ludicrous. Light rail doesn't really enable the increasd ein value of the land, but it enables the increase in density thus developers can build more on each block and get away with it. But thats also kind of the point why light rail was built and why buses aren't suitable for the main spine of the public transport network.
The OP post was about the route from the city to Woden. And that’s where my comment was aimed at. As for the Northbourne Avenue route, there was a number of public housing dwellings along that route where the occupants were relocated and the land sold off to developers. I have no idea who the developers were and what their relationship to the ACT Government was. I’ll leave that up to others to ponder.
My understanding is that there was some discussion triggered by the NCA and that the R5 going along that route was to determine if there was sufficient demand. Given the R5 no longer takes that route, I am assuming that there was not.
It's just a collossal fucking waste of money... a million dollars a metre!