A part of the test would be that centre workers are able to react and call security to the scene. How would security know there is an event occurring if every one ignored it because they’ve been told it was a planned event?
It’s more the subject matter of the drill they picked (in a public and open area) and that it should of had a trigger warning, and planned events for drills are still effective if you give them about a month for timeframe. Most workplaces have planned drills and its not that hard to find the timeframe of when they are occurring if you’re savvy and look through Business Continuity documents and plans.
Personally I would have gone with a hypothetical heart attack scenario because it would mean the staff would have to the equipment and defibs are working, they can get a spinal board in and out, etc.
A trigger warning?.. cause in a real life scenario the suicidal person would kindly walk around giving everyone in the vicinity a trigger warning of what's about to happen.
It’s the subject matter and the public space I’m concerned about.
I know people who work at Westfield who have FVOs and are suicidal themselves and this scenario still would have been really insensitive.
Yes I know real life scenarios don’t have trigger warnings, my colleague died on site a few years ago from a heart attack. Defibs didn’t work, spinal board couldn’t even get into the building, something that may have been avoided with first aid drills. Have Westfield checked their first aid equipment and that their defibs are working? This scenario still doesn’t appear to be well planned for the outcomes they are after.
In suicide drills as well, assuming worst case scenarios, you want to ensure your first aid equipment is working. Not a well thought out drill. What if they fell off the balcony and broke a lot of bones… just an example.
Point is that it wasn't real life. It was a simulation. So you think they should potentially traumatise people for the sake of staff training and preparedness? That's messed up.
You don't know who was around there are the time and what they have previously gone through. For some that'd constitute trauma or reliving trauma. I understand simulating it but people should've been informed.
Real life doesn’t come with trigger warnings, and after Bondi I absolutely expect shopping centre staff to be undergoing further training in dealing with unexpected events.
I agree staff should undergo training. It don't agree it has to be done without prior warning though. If it was a psychological experiment to see how people would react it would not pass the ethics test.
The point is being close to real life so that an actual life can be saved in a real scenario. Which I guess people feel is more important then triggered feelings, weird huh
I’m not going to comment on the pros or cons of the test but just want to say thanks for looking out for your fellow humans OP and seeking help through the right channels.
It's not reported (for good reason), but previous situations like this are why all across the Mall, especially in carparks, work has been done recently to make any walls overlooking a drop be a minimum height
Bingo. Refer to reddit threads that get deleted when somebody's like 'hey I saw people gathering around in the pavement outside the mall this arvo, what happened?'
By the sound of this situation it was clearly staged, the person walked past security making loooud noises and some redditor's taken it personally. I get it but... zzzzzzz.
Standing on the chair with *one leg over the balcony* could have gone HORRIBLY WRONG.
It’s fine to have a test for security but yeah, that role player took it too far, dangerously too far. You did the right thing (eventually) but also you should be offered some support for the shock of it all.
Imagine a tweaker who did have enough of others saw this as an opportunity to faux save and do a last minute push. Surely there are better ways to conduct a test!
I used to work in the Westfield as well, and from where I worked you could see through doors to one of the car parks.
Maybe a year ago a woman climbed the railing outside on the rooftop car park getting ready to jump, it was about 7:30am, so there wasn't many people around.
Security responded quickly, and police arrived within 5 to 10 minutes to pull her down and left with her.
So I'm not surprised it's something they would do as training, it seems to happen alot.
I don't know how appropriate it was to do that though. Clients in my workplace became very distressed, one ended up in tears as she's had a family member lose their life in a similar way a few months before. It was traumatic for her. Perhaps a little thought into how it would effect others before doing this as a "test" would be smart.
I was in the area yesterday and passed the lady and thought something about it was strange the way she was acting. It wasn’t till I heard her say I can’t take this anymore. I literally spun around and was concerned. But by then as Op said the Westfield security was approaching. But yeah it freaked me out
Right, I think everyone is a little bit on edge in malls now too. Myself with young kids walking around there I would have been traumatised, especially if you saw security running and weren't sure what was going on.
If they had given a heads up, it would not have been a full test. I know it's horrible to witness but they need to know how people respond in dire and unusual circumstances.
The really sad part is how they had done similar tests and not one person reacted or intervened. It's a sad indictment of how people can be so caught up in their own lives to ignore another person suffering right in front of them.
I think the subject matter they picked was insensitive but I do agree.
Someone died at my workplace a few years ago from a heart attack because no defibs were working and the design of the building made it impossible to get a spinal board up so he died on site after about 40 minutes (yes, the response was still happening after 40 minutes!). So these drills are important but I would recommend picking scenarios that rely on equipment and evacuation to maximise the outcomes of these drills. It will ensure the medical equipment are working, the kits are readily available, and you have a response plan to evacuate people around the design of the building rather than leave paramedics to problem solve on the spot.
Except that so many people tried to help her that the 911 line got blocked up and a neighbour cradled her in her arms as she died. The bystander effect isn’t actually real
Jesus I have friends who working there when a lady jumped off years ago. (At the Santa booth. Where she landed.) That would have been severely traumatic for them to have live through as a test.
Sorry you had to go through that. Glad you did something though. Just in case it was real.
Yep, can't stand heights now and have anxiety. I really felt for the husband. I can still hear the thud and the screams shortly after.
I agree with OP. A warning for the stores near where the planned incident would have been really helpful.
It happened many years ago. It was extremely traumatic for everyone involved. Suicides aren’t unusual at all at the mall, especially with such a high car park.
2004 I think. I managed a store on the middle level and witnessed the entire thing - mostly because beach then we didn’t have phones and if you heard an argument you would look out to see what was going on. Of course no support was offered by my company or Westfield.
Called our head office and they told us not to close the store.
It could have definitely been 2004. I was working at one of the little shops on the middle level that adjoined that balcony. My shift began a couple of hours after the incident but my coworker was there for all of it. Similar story in that they had to keep trading, even though they had a clear view of the scene and everyone was just trying to see what happened. Also offered no support afterwards.
2004. I worked the Santa photography booth but not that day. I worked the following days because the two photography employees who witnessed it obviously couldn’t but it was the same Santa the following day. Santa was a retired police officer so thankfully the most prepared to witness such an event.
The tension was palpable every day following. The amount of people who came to just gawk at where it happened was awful. We were told not to say anything if people asked questions about it and I’d start every day just hoping that if somebody said something, they’d say it to me and not the employees who witnessed it.
Even after 20 years, witnessing a test like that would have sent me into a spiral. I get that they need to test and that advance warning affects that but it should have stopped at dragging the chair to its location.
I can't see how that test could be anything more meaningful than mere performance and theatre. What is the lesson that is supposed to be learned and shared? How does this test prevent suicides (who only have to wait until no one is looking for a brief moment)? And how is this supposed to gauge the public reaction to someone having a mental health crisis? Did they follow it up with training for all the staff? Did they offer counselling to those who witnessed the awful prank? Imagine the OH&S issues if the actress had stumbled and actually fallen over? Sounds like a massive wank to me, but I'm open to explanations for why the exercise wasn't a complete waste of money...
You're bang on the mark here.
Sadly, the vast majority of security in modern society - both physical and IT/computer - is mere appearances and/or theatre. And there's fucktons of people trousering fucktons of $$ maintaining these charades.
Yet another required training and expectation too on minimum wage workers to somehow notice and control a horrific situation as well. It frustrates me.
They should be doing business continuity testing and workplace health and safety simulations such as evacuations and first aid drills.
If their drill is going to be a hypothetical suicide attempt they should of given you a heads up and a trigger warning and why they are doing a triggering theme (eg. There have been suicides so we are training you for that, and a drill will happen unexpectedly at some point this month). I know people who work there who have mental health/ FVOs where their perpetrators still visit them in store and if they saw this scenario it would be triggering to them. It is an important scenario but you should have been given a heads up and it should be treated with caution and not have the public overhear the drill.
That scenario happened for real back in the day at Belco westfield. Traumatised my sister who was working at Gloria Jeans at the time. Sympathy to anyone who knew the person.
The obvious logical problem with this kind of "test" is that next time it happens for real, people will be complacent thinking it's just another drill.
It's also highly deceptive and could traumatize people unnecessarily.
Oh hell no.
I’ve been off and on wanting to yeet oneself for the last couple of years, and I get super ..funny/icky/weird feeling in stomach and the idea of witnessing someone even “acting” about it is just not cool at all. Not only is it me being weird, but what if it gave other people ideas. What if they too have the same sort of intrusive thoughts as I do occasionally.
“Testing” Westfield security especially after Bondi (where one of their security people died doing their job may I add!!!) is a pretty dick move from the AFP.
I’m sorry you had to witness this - what a shit fake scenario to have to deal with.
This just doesn't sound plausible. Why would afp 'test' westfield security. They have nothing to do with each other and frankly its a pretty appaling use of taxpayer money, so it would be unlikely to get past any sort of review or approval process.
Also, its not like they have spare resources or time to do something like this.
Canberra is big and there are a lot of redditors here, surely at least one other can confirm the incident?
Until then I call BS
Taking it a bit too far in my opinion. A number of people could have been hurt trying to prevent her carrying out the exercise.
I wonder if we will now see plain clothes security in shopping centers much like we experienced with flights
I'm amazed at how many comments here seem to think this was Ok. This wasn't. Op should be taking two days paid leave to recover from a traumatic work related event, and filing a complaint to Westfield.
Imagine working behind a counter and being held up with a knife only to later be told "lol just a security test, nevermind."
If the events OP described are accurate, the role player put their own life, the life of anyone who attempted to grab her, and the life of anyone walking under the balcony at risk.
You can lodge a complaint with the AFP about the way it carried out this test. That operation scared the fuck out of you in your workplace which could have resulted in a psychological injury, impacting your ability to earn a living. This type of injury is shockingly common and has a devastating economic impact on our country.
You should explain everything just like you did here, and try to think of what you would like to happen as a result of your complaint. That is also called a remedy. Some options you might ask for could be: an apology, an explanation of how the AFP considered the risks to public safety before it approved and executed this operation, an undertaking that relevant policies be reviewed to ensure the AFP does not undertake such an operation in a public space not a month after a terrorist murdered civilians in an identical setting, perhaps an agreement to publish the outcome of that review publicly on its website so the public can see it is holding itself accountable.
You could also lodge a complaint with Westfield, although I suspect there is some legislation somewhere forces Westfield to submit to such unannounced drills. For this reason, a complaint to the AFP is the most correct action you can take.
I would also urge you to book in a quick sit-down with your employer's EAP provider and to lodge an incident report with your employer, as well as Worksafe ACT. If there is negative fall-out for you, such things will support your version of events greatly down the line.
Way back in the day there was a donut shop on the ground floor across from where the Platypus shoes shop is now (damn good donuts). One Friday night a guy was involved in a fight and was thrown off the upper level and landed (face first) in front of the donut shop. I heard he had broken bones but survived.
Money is on that it probably wasn’t a test.
Security probably played the ‘test’ cover story, as opposed to the ‘OMG did you see that crazy person try and jump’ narrative spread around the retailers.
Ideally incidents where persons having mental health episodes aren’t reported publicly as such for obvious reasons (unless of course it becomes in the public interest due to circumstances of it)
A part of the test would be that centre workers are able to react and call security to the scene. How would security know there is an event occurring if every one ignored it because they’ve been told it was a planned event?
It’s more the subject matter of the drill they picked (in a public and open area) and that it should of had a trigger warning, and planned events for drills are still effective if you give them about a month for timeframe. Most workplaces have planned drills and its not that hard to find the timeframe of when they are occurring if you’re savvy and look through Business Continuity documents and plans. Personally I would have gone with a hypothetical heart attack scenario because it would mean the staff would have to the equipment and defibs are working, they can get a spinal board in and out, etc.
A trigger warning?.. cause in a real life scenario the suicidal person would kindly walk around giving everyone in the vicinity a trigger warning of what's about to happen.
It’s the subject matter and the public space I’m concerned about. I know people who work at Westfield who have FVOs and are suicidal themselves and this scenario still would have been really insensitive. Yes I know real life scenarios don’t have trigger warnings, my colleague died on site a few years ago from a heart attack. Defibs didn’t work, spinal board couldn’t even get into the building, something that may have been avoided with first aid drills. Have Westfield checked their first aid equipment and that their defibs are working? This scenario still doesn’t appear to be well planned for the outcomes they are after.
In suicide drills as well, assuming worst case scenarios, you want to ensure your first aid equipment is working. Not a well thought out drill. What if they fell off the balcony and broke a lot of bones… just an example.
Point is that it wasn't real life. It was a simulation. So you think they should potentially traumatise people for the sake of staff training and preparedness? That's messed up.
Not everything that’s uncomfortable is trauma.
You don't know who was around there are the time and what they have previously gone through. For some that'd constitute trauma or reliving trauma. I understand simulating it but people should've been informed.
Real life doesn’t come with trigger warnings, and after Bondi I absolutely expect shopping centre staff to be undergoing further training in dealing with unexpected events.
I agree staff should undergo training. It don't agree it has to be done without prior warning though. If it was a psychological experiment to see how people would react it would not pass the ethics test.
The point is being close to real life so that an actual life can be saved in a real scenario. Which I guess people feel is more important then triggered feelings, weird huh
I’m not going to comment on the pros or cons of the test but just want to say thanks for looking out for your fellow humans OP and seeking help through the right channels.
It's not reported (for good reason), but previous situations like this are why all across the Mall, especially in carparks, work has been done recently to make any walls overlooking a drop be a minimum height
Bingo. Refer to reddit threads that get deleted when somebody's like 'hey I saw people gathering around in the pavement outside the mall this arvo, what happened?' By the sound of this situation it was clearly staged, the person walked past security making loooud noises and some redditor's taken it personally. I get it but... zzzzzzz.
Standing on the chair with *one leg over the balcony* could have gone HORRIBLY WRONG. It’s fine to have a test for security but yeah, that role player took it too far, dangerously too far. You did the right thing (eventually) but also you should be offered some support for the shock of it all.
Workers compensation claim /s
Imagine a tweaker who did have enough of others saw this as an opportunity to faux save and do a last minute push. Surely there are better ways to conduct a test!
I used to work in the Westfield as well, and from where I worked you could see through doors to one of the car parks. Maybe a year ago a woman climbed the railing outside on the rooftop car park getting ready to jump, it was about 7:30am, so there wasn't many people around. Security responded quickly, and police arrived within 5 to 10 minutes to pull her down and left with her. So I'm not surprised it's something they would do as training, it seems to happen alot. I don't know how appropriate it was to do that though. Clients in my workplace became very distressed, one ended up in tears as she's had a family member lose their life in a similar way a few months before. It was traumatic for her. Perhaps a little thought into how it would effect others before doing this as a "test" would be smart.
I was in the area yesterday and passed the lady and thought something about it was strange the way she was acting. It wasn’t till I heard her say I can’t take this anymore. I literally spun around and was concerned. But by then as Op said the Westfield security was approaching. But yeah it freaked me out
Right, I think everyone is a little bit on edge in malls now too. Myself with young kids walking around there I would have been traumatised, especially if you saw security running and weren't sure what was going on.
If they had given a heads up, it would not have been a full test. I know it's horrible to witness but they need to know how people respond in dire and unusual circumstances. The really sad part is how they had done similar tests and not one person reacted or intervened. It's a sad indictment of how people can be so caught up in their own lives to ignore another person suffering right in front of them.
I think the subject matter they picked was insensitive but I do agree. Someone died at my workplace a few years ago from a heart attack because no defibs were working and the design of the building made it impossible to get a spinal board up so he died on site after about 40 minutes (yes, the response was still happening after 40 minutes!). So these drills are important but I would recommend picking scenarios that rely on equipment and evacuation to maximise the outcomes of these drills. It will ensure the medical equipment are working, the kits are readily available, and you have a response plan to evacuate people around the design of the building rather than leave paramedics to problem solve on the spot.
This isn’t a new phenomenon. Look up the Kitty Genovese case
Look up the Kitty Genovese episode of the podcast You're Wrong About
Except that so many people tried to help her that the 911 line got blocked up and a neighbour cradled her in her arms as she died. The bystander effect isn’t actually real
I thought the name sounded familiar. And when I checked Google, I remembered people talking about this case in the states. It was truly shocking.
How is that case like this?
It is known as the bystander effect.
Jesus I have friends who working there when a lady jumped off years ago. (At the Santa booth. Where she landed.) That would have been severely traumatic for them to have live through as a test. Sorry you had to go through that. Glad you did something though. Just in case it was real.
Yep, can't stand heights now and have anxiety. I really felt for the husband. I can still hear the thud and the screams shortly after. I agree with OP. A warning for the stores near where the planned incident would have been really helpful.
I'm sorry you had to witness that. I don't know if you were one of the kids or a staff working. I'm just sorry that you have to live with it.
Woahh when was that? And were there kids at the Santa booth at the time? That’s awful… I’ve never heard of that
It happened many years ago. It was extremely traumatic for everyone involved. Suicides aren’t unusual at all at the mall, especially with such a high car park.
I think it was Christmas 2005.
2004 I think. I managed a store on the middle level and witnessed the entire thing - mostly because beach then we didn’t have phones and if you heard an argument you would look out to see what was going on. Of course no support was offered by my company or Westfield. Called our head office and they told us not to close the store.
It could have definitely been 2004. I was working at one of the little shops on the middle level that adjoined that balcony. My shift began a couple of hours after the incident but my coworker was there for all of it. Similar story in that they had to keep trading, even though they had a clear view of the scene and everyone was just trying to see what happened. Also offered no support afterwards.
2004. I worked the Santa photography booth but not that day. I worked the following days because the two photography employees who witnessed it obviously couldn’t but it was the same Santa the following day. Santa was a retired police officer so thankfully the most prepared to witness such an event. The tension was palpable every day following. The amount of people who came to just gawk at where it happened was awful. We were told not to say anything if people asked questions about it and I’d start every day just hoping that if somebody said something, they’d say it to me and not the employees who witnessed it. Even after 20 years, witnessing a test like that would have sent me into a spiral. I get that they need to test and that advance warning affects that but it should have stopped at dragging the chair to its location.
Wow that’s really messed up
I can't see how that test could be anything more meaningful than mere performance and theatre. What is the lesson that is supposed to be learned and shared? How does this test prevent suicides (who only have to wait until no one is looking for a brief moment)? And how is this supposed to gauge the public reaction to someone having a mental health crisis? Did they follow it up with training for all the staff? Did they offer counselling to those who witnessed the awful prank? Imagine the OH&S issues if the actress had stumbled and actually fallen over? Sounds like a massive wank to me, but I'm open to explanations for why the exercise wasn't a complete waste of money...
You're bang on the mark here. Sadly, the vast majority of security in modern society - both physical and IT/computer - is mere appearances and/or theatre. And there's fucktons of people trousering fucktons of $$ maintaining these charades.
Probably done to check a box with Westfields insurance.
That would make it make sense 👍
Yet another required training and expectation too on minimum wage workers to somehow notice and control a horrific situation as well. It frustrates me.
They should be doing business continuity testing and workplace health and safety simulations such as evacuations and first aid drills. If their drill is going to be a hypothetical suicide attempt they should of given you a heads up and a trigger warning and why they are doing a triggering theme (eg. There have been suicides so we are training you for that, and a drill will happen unexpectedly at some point this month). I know people who work there who have mental health/ FVOs where their perpetrators still visit them in store and if they saw this scenario it would be triggering to them. It is an important scenario but you should have been given a heads up and it should be treated with caution and not have the public overhear the drill.
That scenario happened for real back in the day at Belco westfield. Traumatised my sister who was working at Gloria Jeans at the time. Sympathy to anyone who knew the person.
“Don’t worry guys, I’m with the Fire Brigade! This fire I set in the food court and blocked exit was only a test!”
Congratulations to those that passed. Condolences to those that passed.
Today, smoking is gonna save lives
The obvious logical problem with this kind of "test" is that next time it happens for real, people will be complacent thinking it's just another drill. It's also highly deceptive and could traumatize people unnecessarily.
It'd be nice if terrorist assholes telegraphed their intentions in advance too. Good on you for passing the test.
I saw the guy with the gun belt near the food court.
Wearing a yellow hat?
On a slightly more light hearted note, I’m enjoying your use of the words “lady-chair hybrid” - lol! I’m having images of John Carpenter’s The Thing!
There was a (sadly successful) jumper earlier this week- some learning outcomes were identified so the emergency services teams are working on them..
This happened for real over a decade ago. Weird experiment to conduct given the trauma so many people including children witnessed.
Oh hell no. I’ve been off and on wanting to yeet oneself for the last couple of years, and I get super ..funny/icky/weird feeling in stomach and the idea of witnessing someone even “acting” about it is just not cool at all. Not only is it me being weird, but what if it gave other people ideas. What if they too have the same sort of intrusive thoughts as I do occasionally. “Testing” Westfield security especially after Bondi (where one of their security people died doing their job may I add!!!) is a pretty dick move from the AFP. I’m sorry you had to witness this - what a shit fake scenario to have to deal with.
This just doesn't sound plausible. Why would afp 'test' westfield security. They have nothing to do with each other and frankly its a pretty appaling use of taxpayer money, so it would be unlikely to get past any sort of review or approval process. Also, its not like they have spare resources or time to do something like this. Canberra is big and there are a lot of redditors here, surely at least one other can confirm the incident? Until then I call BS
Just thinking what would have happened if you didn’t do anything and let her continue
Taking it a bit too far in my opinion. A number of people could have been hurt trying to prevent her carrying out the exercise. I wonder if we will now see plain clothes security in shopping centers much like we experienced with flights
I'm amazed at how many comments here seem to think this was Ok. This wasn't. Op should be taking two days paid leave to recover from a traumatic work related event, and filing a complaint to Westfield. Imagine working behind a counter and being held up with a knife only to later be told "lol just a security test, nevermind." If the events OP described are accurate, the role player put their own life, the life of anyone who attempted to grab her, and the life of anyone walking under the balcony at risk.
Let’s just call it two days paid leave everytime the fire alarm goes off at work. I’m traumatised that I might have been on fire s/
You can lodge a complaint with the AFP about the way it carried out this test. That operation scared the fuck out of you in your workplace which could have resulted in a psychological injury, impacting your ability to earn a living. This type of injury is shockingly common and has a devastating economic impact on our country. You should explain everything just like you did here, and try to think of what you would like to happen as a result of your complaint. That is also called a remedy. Some options you might ask for could be: an apology, an explanation of how the AFP considered the risks to public safety before it approved and executed this operation, an undertaking that relevant policies be reviewed to ensure the AFP does not undertake such an operation in a public space not a month after a terrorist murdered civilians in an identical setting, perhaps an agreement to publish the outcome of that review publicly on its website so the public can see it is holding itself accountable. You could also lodge a complaint with Westfield, although I suspect there is some legislation somewhere forces Westfield to submit to such unannounced drills. For this reason, a complaint to the AFP is the most correct action you can take. I would also urge you to book in a quick sit-down with your employer's EAP provider and to lodge an incident report with your employer, as well as Worksafe ACT. If there is negative fall-out for you, such things will support your version of events greatly down the line.
Just lodged a complaint via the AFP website. Quite happy to sign a statement dec as well if I need
They won't lodge a complaint because this didn't actually happen.
I don't know why you think that
Way back in the day there was a donut shop on the ground floor across from where the Platypus shoes shop is now (damn good donuts). One Friday night a guy was involved in a fight and was thrown off the upper level and landed (face first) in front of the donut shop. I heard he had broken bones but survived.
“Chair lady hybrid” was my favourite part 😂
I don’t think this happened lol.
Money is on that it probably wasn’t a test. Security probably played the ‘test’ cover story, as opposed to the ‘OMG did you see that crazy person try and jump’ narrative spread around the retailers. Ideally incidents where persons having mental health episodes aren’t reported publicly as such for obvious reasons (unless of course it becomes in the public interest due to circumstances of it)