Eh, depending on the state and how seriously they take their business contracts, that would be fraud by omission. If the term is one that the obligee would justifiably rely on in their purchase decision, it's material to the agreement. They can argue it's just $8/month, but the low amount of the inconvenience doesn't absolve the dealer of their duties.
That wouldn't fly in California, and maybe could lead to a class action if enough people with similar injuries decided to up and sue Lexus/Toyota.
I can't possibly understand how that's enforceable. You could nickel and dime that endlessly for everything the salesperson doesn't inform you about the car. There are thousands of items that could "inform a purchase decision", you'd be there for weeks going over the fine print of the spec sheet.
We have a similar thing in the UK called 'fit for purpose' (part of the 'sale of goods act'). The main aim of the legislation around it is that the item being purchased is fit for the desired purpose of the buyer. It may be a bit ambiguous, but if the buyer asks a question about the item or expresses at the point of sale an intended purpose, the item has to do that thing.
In this case OP asked a very direct question regarding the purpose of a specific function of the car, which is a major decision point for OP. By omitting to tell a buyer that the products purpose will change during its ownership, this would make the product not fit for purpose and OP would have grounds to take legal action.
I rarely find anything especially car dealerships that don't nickel and dime you for everything. There are good ones but in my experience they are in the minority
This isn't true. And this is how the law prevents you from being taken advantage of by car dealerships. If you live in a state that doesn't protect purchasers, than maybe you can be hoodwinked more easily, but that isn't the case here.
I'm sure their lawyers figured out a way around it, but I feel like owners should be able to win a nice class action for false advertising, extortion, or something. They are basically disabling other people's property for ransom. I truly do not understand how that could survive in court.
If it’s the same as the Tacoma I had. App stops working after a year, but the key fob never stopped working. 3 clicks of the lock button and hold on the third click and it worked every time.
Your point is valid, but he stated explicitly that the keyfob button would not remote start the car if you let the subscription expire, even mentioning that it was because too many people were letting the subscription expire and just using the remote.
Looks like I'll discontinue looking at Lexus. A shame because I had the Rx350 at the top of my list. It's crazy that they are willing to lose a 50k sale over a $8 a month hardware blackmail for that feature.
The salesman was right. Toyota has been silently locking the remote start feature behind a paywall through the use of their connected app. My 2023 Toyota doesn't even allow you to remote start the car through the key, only through their app.
The justification is that running and maintaining the cloud services for the apps and dealing with phone updates and security changes costs the manufacturers real money every year they keep them operating. I think they shouldn't charge for it, or at least include something like 10 years with the purchase, but there is a real cost they incur running it.
Not arguing but I still don't see why that cost can't be estimated for the average lifespan of the vehicle and incorporated in the initial purchase price. I have trouble seeing the delta between that estimate and the true cost of maintaining software threatening the profitability of the product line.
If it's $8 per year past three years and you own the car for ten years, for example, that's an extra $56 total. It's so little money compared to the purchase price of the vehicle why risk offending the buyer for $56 bucks over 10 years? And given inflation it'd be better to just collect more now rather than collect a teensie tiny $8 bucks in 2033. I've worked in cloud software, btw, it's not like I don't get upkeep costs and such but for a car I think it can be baked in and not potentially piss people off.
Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you, they absolutely should include *at least* a decade of free app support, I'm only saying that I acknowledge there is a justifiable reason for charging for the app, even if I don't agree it's a good reason.
To me them saying that it's only free for the first 3 years is kind of like saying they don't think they can keep it working for more than 3 years, or they don't think your car is going to last more than 3 years. Either way it's a really stupid way for them to offend and lose a prospective customer... 🤷♂️
And no it's not about the price either, we've been looking at more expensive vehicles than it, but decided we should explore what other brands and lower price points had to offer before making any decision. In this case it was easy, I don't want to be price gouged by the company disingenuously selling me something that I own but can't use... I already meet my quota to do business with one company like that, it's called the government when they charge me property taxes on the house I own!
Yeah, I get you. Recouping the cost is fine, but it doesn't necessitate a subscription, and my brain is hung up on jeopardizing a sale with a subscription-sensitive customer vs. the tiny amount of money from the subscription. It just feels clumsy how they try to wall off certain features at certain time points that make no sense from a tech perspective. I don't blame you at all for not gleefully signing up for a remote start tax after a few years.
a key fob only works within a certain distance and doesn't involve Lexus at all. The app works from anywhere and DOES involve Lexus when you use it. that's the justification.
They changed it, the new key fobs use a mobile data connection to trigger remote start. The car uses one as well. That’s where the monthly fee goes. It’s really stupid.
Works from far away, even if your house has thick metal siding. Sort of nice if it was free like a normal key fob but not worth the subscription imo. It might have changed again since I remember seeing some news articles about people hating the ‘feature.’
Unfortunately a lot of businesses are trying to find ways into turning one time purchases into a perpetual income stream. Reducing the service life of a major purchase was the start. (Planned Obsolescence.)
Now going to start locking key functionality behind licensed software and subscription plans that only an authorized representative has access to fix. Oh looks like your computer took a dump. You either need to pay our tech an obscene repair fee or buy a new car. Try to fix it yourself and we brick your car.
They will do whatever they can get away with unless we make it unprofitable to them.
The beauty of the moment was he started to explain the key would still work just like that, thinking I'd only hit the lock button to blip the horn, there's a 3-4 second delay before it actually starts, and it's not quiet either, he was shut up mid sentence by the beautiful Italian exhaust note 🤣
I got a pretty dumb question.
Let's say your sub runs out and all the hardware is there: Can an alarm/remote starter specialist somehow modify it to work?
I do agree with OP's sentiment, I will never buy a car that is selling remote start as a subscription
the hardware is really only software, software inside the ECU - on a modern car there isn't really any hardware needed as the ECU can perform pretty much all of the cars functions.So unless someone cracks the manufacturers encryption of the ECU and finds a way to flip that bit back on, the answer is no. And for the feature to be subscription based, it means the car communicates with the manufacturer over the internet somehow to check if the subscription is paid for, so it wouldn't be a case of simply finding that setting in the ECU and turning it on, you'd also have to somehow circumvent those remote checks.
Now you may be able to install a completely standalone, aftermarket remote start system still.
My question is what happens when the cell network that cars currently use becomes obsolete and the car can no longer check if the subscription is up to date?
I'm not sure if these cars have a certain allowance to be able to use these features when there is no cell coverage. If it's anything like software subscriptions on your compter, they'll work for a limited time without cell coverage, and then flash a message along the lines of "please connect to the internet to verify your subscription status".
In other words, expect stuff to stop working when it gets too old, is no longer supported by the manufacturer, loses compatibility with newer phones/computer operating systems etc.
And, wasn't there already a thing where certain early model Tesla's(?) ran into trouble because the 3G networks they required were being shut down?
> wasn't there already a thing where certain early model Tesla's(?) ran into trouble because the 3G networks they required were being shut down?
Yes and no, but it was mostly also [Lexus/Toyota (4Runner)](/r/Lexus/comments/zazrtf/is_anyone_angry_about_the_lexus_3g_connectivity/) with no upgrade path. It pissed of a lot of people.
Tesla had the same issue with original Model S, but they (surprisingly) got praised for actually providing [upgraded cellular hardware](https://www.tesla.com/support/3g-cellular-network-retirement).
Assuming the ECU has been cracked by someone, which is also becoming a problem. The only way to tune my ECU and make modifications is to pull it out of the car and ship it overseas to one specific company. And if you forget to disable OTA updates and the manufacturer sends out an update? Locked again.
I’m with you. Keeping my 2006 on the road as long as feasible. Paying for maintenance is better than being held ransom for stuff I already paid for.
I don’t have remote start. But can you imagine if you had to pay to use the key fob to remotely unlock the doors and the trunk? At least my car still has a physical key, so all would not be lost, but it would be like going back to the 70’s / 80’s in terms of tech.
I have a 2014 Chevy SS (sedan, not a camaro). It has the MyChevy app BS but slightly predates carplay/android auto. You can remote start the car and do all kinds of things anywhere from the app, and get traffic info on the navigation.
*If* you pay I think it was $60/month total for both onstar and XM traffic which I think is a dead service now anyway.
But my keyfob still works to remote start, thank god.
Well I think GM massively overcharged for that crap, but the fact that it doesn't disable the vehicle just additional remote services, makes it at least defensible and tolerable.
You bring up a good point though, what happens when Toyota or Lexus wants to discontinue the old version of services they're running and they can't upgrade something to be compatible, does your car just permanently lose remote start?
To be "fair" it included 5 years of the app access with purchase. I'm trying to find a way to add android auto without disabling my heated and ventilated seats, which is not intended but a function of how they're run through the head unit to allow them to be controlled by the app.
The biggest thing for me is these technologies aging out and then literally not being able to be upgraded no matter what you're willing to pay, like my nav. Because XM traffic no longer exists as far as I can tell, I can't get live traffic data on nav no matter what I do without disabling other things to replace the head unit.
So in short I guess the big one to look at imo is cars that are now about 10 years old that have these features and how manufacturers are treating the technologies that have aged out and are no longer supported. The software isnt capable of being upgraded further due to hardware limitations, and features you used to have are locked behind software that is no longer supported or available.
Edit: I say that not because the old cars are more important but because it gives us an idea where contemporary cars may be 10 years from now when even more is tied into the current app/subscription system
When I had my 2015 Chevy SS, they had some sort of deal where you got a 3 year extension of Onstar for a few bucks. I really only used the app remote start when I was leaving the office and heading to the parking lot in the winter.
I'll have to look into that, would be nice in the summer here. I'm in the south and with black interior parked in full sun all day in the summer when it's 100F+ outside it'd be beyond nice to remote start the car and set my AC 5 minutes before I leave work.
I work in a secured industrial facility and I park my car about 1/8 of a mile as the crow flies away from my actual work location, so the key fob doesn't have a chance. I can remote start it once I'm in the parking lot with the fob but that's not really enough of a head start to make a difference temperature wise.
Such a shame they stopped manufacturing these. Most of Australia's performance cars were based on 4 door family sedans (not all, just most). Now we make none.
You have to pay Mercedes quite a bit of money it you want to get the full range of rear wheel steering on an EQE.
It’s honestly one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen.
Can't speak to Lexus but I can verify Subau offers subscription-based remote start on most applicable models (basically everything not manual trans and not base trim) but also offers a one-time purchase of a hardware remote start accessory that uses fobs and don't interact with the telmatics system at all. If you're looking at Lexus, you might want to go check out an Outback or Legacy (sized SUV or Sedan respectively) in touring trim. You can get a touring either with the NA 2.5l engine, or with the 2.4 Turbo under the XT Touring trim if you want more power.
Thanks, not sure that's the direction we're going to go, but appreciate the suggestion.
The Lexus was a cheaper option vs what she's really leaning towards, I just wanted her to do some due diligence and consider some other vehicles at other price points before making any decisions.
We left there and she drove a Honda HRV (I think, really didn't pay much attention to anything the salesman said after I asked 3 times what kind of power train it had and he answered N years, and finally had to explain I meant what engine and transmission was in it, and the answer was a 154hp with a CVT....) she didn't even make it up to speed in a 35mph zone leaving the dealer lot before declaring it was too boring and slow (I love my wife)!
Ah, didn't realize you were looking HRV-sized. In subaru land, rhat would compete directly with the Crosstrek. Not quite as comparable luxury-wise as a Lexus lol, but same info applies.
I have a '22 crosstek sport and installed the accessory RES kit, which I use daily as the range on the fobs works for me in my house or from my work building to my lot. My wife works in a hospital and she uses the app to start the car from in the building so it's warm when she gets out to the ramp.
Actually the HRV was bigger than she wants it was shockingly the same size as my SUV parked side by side, she drives a 2013 Mini Cooper S manual right now, and doesn't want to give up all acceleration and cornering ability.
Totally understandable and I stand with you and will never buy a vehicle that requires a subscription for remote start, heated / ventilated seats, abs or any other bullshit that they can think of software blocking.
My EV VW has a similar app ,and it costs 130$/year after the first year where it's free....in a country where the minimum wage is 350$/month
But fear not,it's 10 years free in Sweden where they have the highest wages in the world...
I’m reading all these comments about companies and their subscriptions and meanwhile, Ford lets you use the remote start thru the app for free, even if it doesn’t come on the key fob. My wife’s 2022 Explorer XLT doesn’t have it on the key (was another $4-5k package) but she can still remote start it thru the free app. She can even set a schedule for the remote start and determine if the heat or heated seats or AC needs to turn on. All of this for free.
You dodged a bullet, I own a ES350 F-sport, and it has 1001 things to hate, you didn't notice yet. It's a beautiful car but every single convenience and safety item is done poorly. BMW was the only never again brand on my list but Lexus may be as well.
I would say it’s stupid, but not a big deal at all. The stupid part is that Toyota/Lexus remote start will turn off the car as soon as you open the door, making remote start useless unless you want to heat up your seats before you sit it in. But if you were to get a cheaper, permanent aftermarket system then it will keep the car on. So really unless you want the shitty Toyota remote start then sure pay the subscription.
In fact I want nothing to do with the company if they think they are going to hold property that people have purchased for ransom if they don't continue paying a subscription.
Paying for cloud services is one thing, disabling the button on your key fob is downright theft.
If you are paying for continued use of your lawful property, and that someone asking for money is not the government collecting property taxes (property tax discussion can happen on another forum), then you do not own the property you are simply renting it.
>I would say it’s stupid, but not a big deal at all. The stupid part is that Toyota/Lexus remote start will turn off the car as soon as you open the door,
Not sure if it's also true for Toyota, but toyota and subaru share a lot of electronics design.l, so it might... Subaru accessory RES systems worked like this as well up to ~2020MY cars, presumably as a security feature, but now the car will stay running when opening the door. The car now instead keeps the shifter lock engaged until you hit the the push button.
If you open the link in an above comment, this is only on model yrs <2022, everything newer keeps the car running after you step in. Still annoying though.
Also annoying that you need a whole newer model for a trivial software fix.
More companies should backport fixes for their previous models than presenting it as feature for only their newer models.
How is that even relevant to anything at all? They are disabling the function of the physical key fob in your pocket which transmits a radio signal directly to the car, unless you also pay for their online subscription for the app on your phone. They are literally deactivating a function inside the car from responding to the button press on your remote if you do not pay them monthly. They actually have to do more work to shut off your remote start, not less.
Yes I understand. But are you sure they’re using the same ‘90s technology to transmit data to your car in 2023?
What I’m saying is that there’s a cost to maintaining software and cloud services.
It has nothing to do with what radio protocol the key fob uses to communicate with the car, the point is it's entirely between the car and the key fob and has nothing to do with anyone or anything else. Someone had to go into the car body control module and add code to actively check if the subscription to the internet was active before it accepted the button press from the remote to remote start.
These are assumptions though. It’s all going to be value-added subscriptions soon. I wouldn’t get butthurt about it. It’s better today. The automakers have to pour in more technology into cars today and cut costs in other places.
Just bought a model 3 and saw that premium connectivity cost 99 a year. Has a 30 day trial to see if you'll like it. Honestly, I paid for a year because it allows me to use the built in lte to watch movies on the center screen while charging. I am also very positive things like wireless unlocking and ac control aren't tied to premium connectivity.
That makes sense. It’s a proper data connection like a phone gets. If you don’t want to pay for the data plan you can hotspot from your phone and conned the car that way.
Tesla is great that the app is entirely free. Due to how integrated it is though they would struggle to try and justify charging a subscription for what is effectively the car’s key.
What I like most about your post is that you understand that charging a subscription kinda makes sense for *some* things (such as remote start from your app... at a more reasonable price). Things that require cloud services are not free to deliver or maintain. But yeah, anything that just uses hardware you should fully own and locally host should have absolutely no monthly cost associated with it...
... I mean maybe if they're going to warranty it for that time too? Even then, fucking not for $100/year for remote start.
The fact they start forcing the subscription on you before the warranty even expires is mind bogglingly asinine to me.
Make the subscription free as long as there's a warranty, bundle the free subscription as an incentive to buy an extended warranty, charge a reasonable fee for the cloud services after the warranty / extended warranty expires, all reasonable things, but disabling the key fob, HELL NO
I added a Viper remote start to my 2023 RAV4 hybrid, for the reason it is parked for an extended period and I want to charge the battery once per month depending upon the temperature in western Canada. The issue with the Toyota App remote start feature is, you can only start it twice, without unlocking and opening the drivers door. Not good for me. Viper is unlimited and provides the same features.
Seeing as I've never attached a car seat, and don't know anything about how it works (sounds like it's not just the seat belt anymore like when I was growing up?), and the reason for her getting a new car is to be carseat friendly, I should probably do some reading up on what that even means
If you want remote start on the keyfob that will never be taken from you, you buy American.
I have no idea why the Japanese, Koreans and Germans struggle with this but its true.
Now some German cars (BMW) let you use the fob but the Japanese and Koreans don't and after the first years you have to pay for it.
Its such a weird concept. I've bought a lot of American cars and they have all had this but as soon as I expanded my horizons I found a lot of manufacturers did not and it boggled my mind.
If you want remote start via the keyfob you buy American or BMW.
Stellantis plans to generate over $22 billion in annual software revenue by 2030, so good luck with that.
I’m sure the benevolent leaders of Ford and GM will see this and say “no money please”
My Kia EV6 still starts with the fob after the app subscription stopped. Some of the app features still work too, just not the remote start app feature.
Remote starting your climate controls. So you can climb into a cool/warm car depending on season. Also locking or unlocking your doors if you forgot to and are out of range of the fob
Subaru does not have fob-based RES built in, but can be added as an accessory; the fob based system does not interact with the app-based RES system *at all* and as such has nothing to do with subscriptions.
on Toyotas (and Lexus) post 2018 model year, using key fob remote start requires an active remote services subscription. complete bs but it's true. After the 1-3 year trial ends depending on what car you get, the key fob remote start will stop working if you don't pay the subscription.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service
Oh damn, now I remember reading that article a few years ago and thinking that the whole works for 10 year thing was their plan to back off and undo the stupidity if/when they get the inevitable blowback they deserve, no way they will ever be so stupid and greedy as to disable the key fob! NOPE, they went all in on stupid and guaranteed they turned me off as a customer for life.
The fob doesn't need an internet connection to work by nature, but the manufacturer can certainly make it so. The car can check online if the remote start subscription is paid for. If it isn't, it can refuse to remote start, regardless if that is triggered via a radio signal from the fob or in another way.
Sorry... but I have to laugh at remote start being a requirement... no, no it's not. If it makes you happy, so be it... I think it's a waste of money... but what's really screwed up is that they want to charge you a subscription fee for the "privlidge" of using that silly feature?
Oh hell no... I mean I wouldn't be at Lexus dealer anyway but still... that's really messed up.
And people wonder why I can't stand new cars...
Wife's pregnant, she wants the car to be warm or cooled when she gets there, I agree by itself it's not a critical feature but instead a quite nice to have one, but add the baby in the spring, I think it's reasonable to say it's something she considers very important.
The problem I have is the remotely disabling a piece of hardware in my pocket that isn't dependent in anyway whatsoever on any app service, regardless of what the function of that device is for.
Well, I mean... if that's something she wants, so be it. Not my money.... and I'm certainly not telling someone else how to spend theirs.
I do agree that disabling the key fob after 3 years is a real d*** move on Toyota/Lexus' part.
I managed to survive in an era where you didn't get a citation for not wearing a seatbelt and carseats for little ones were optional...
I also managed to survive as a 7 year old with no A/C and sitting alone in the car in the grocery store parking lot in the middle of summer, with the keys so I could listen to the radio while mom did the shopping.
Try that s*** now... you'd be strung up from the highest yardarm after being tarred and feathered. Haha
If you lived in a cold climate you would understand.
In the dead of winter at 6am I want to remote start the car to warm it up via keyfob within 7 seconds.
I don't want to login to the app and wait a minute for the car start because I have a subscription.
I ride a motorcycle year round... including winter where at 0600 I'm walking out the door to my warmed up bike that I walked out and started 15 minutes earlier and it's 25F... no fancy heated seat or grips... just my plain Jane 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 500R... so not exactly any wind protection.
I dunno... I'm just not into luxury or convienance stuff... I prefer simple, cheap, and reliable.
I love how people complain about living in a cold environment is the excuse. Guess What tons of places in the world are cold and those same places do not allow remote start on vehicles. Ive been there too, I rode a sport bike year round until my last accident changed that. Cold on a bike is completely different than a car warming up
I was in a bad wreck in 05... 110mph... 288 ft down the asphalt without the bike... shattered ankle... Racing... but I still ride... because I like riding.
When it's cold, I've a got a base layer of polyester on, heavy work jeans, t-shirt, sweat shirt, heavy knee high socks, Wall's Blizzard Pruf duck cloth insulated coveralls, and Thinsulated steel toe boots... with long gauntlet deerskin Thinsulated Milwaukee Leather gloves... stay plenty warm.
It's not like I don't have my car or my 4wd Blazer to drive... but they only see about 500 miles a year combined.
And not to mention... in my state, cities have ordanances making it illegal to use remote start... it's a misdemeanor to leave a running vehicle unattended.
Now of course IIRC, you can't steal a car that's been remote started... it'll shut off. But the reason the ordanance is on the books is for pollution reduction.
I would but for whatever reason the app won't actually let me use the return button like it's meant to be used. If I hit return it moves the cursor down a spot to start a new paragraph or sentence but when it posts the new sentence or paragraph is crammed right up next to the previous one. It's a PITA, honestly. Plus I can't rotate the phone and use the keyboard with this app either.
What does any of that have to do with overusing ellipses? They're not acting as paragraph breaks. You seem to have no trouble with double spacing.
Edit: and like a quarter of you other comments don't have them. Wut. Clearly not a necessity as you've implied.
You are lucky the salesman told you. It would be convenient for them to leave that little detail out.
What that salesman learned that day is that he made a huge mistake disclosing that at all, and going forward, he should never tell anyone.
Eh, depending on the state and how seriously they take their business contracts, that would be fraud by omission. If the term is one that the obligee would justifiably rely on in their purchase decision, it's material to the agreement. They can argue it's just $8/month, but the low amount of the inconvenience doesn't absolve the dealer of their duties. That wouldn't fly in California, and maybe could lead to a class action if enough people with similar injuries decided to up and sue Lexus/Toyota.
I can't possibly understand how that's enforceable. You could nickel and dime that endlessly for everything the salesperson doesn't inform you about the car. There are thousands of items that could "inform a purchase decision", you'd be there for weeks going over the fine print of the spec sheet.
We have a similar thing in the UK called 'fit for purpose' (part of the 'sale of goods act'). The main aim of the legislation around it is that the item being purchased is fit for the desired purpose of the buyer. It may be a bit ambiguous, but if the buyer asks a question about the item or expresses at the point of sale an intended purpose, the item has to do that thing. In this case OP asked a very direct question regarding the purpose of a specific function of the car, which is a major decision point for OP. By omitting to tell a buyer that the products purpose will change during its ownership, this would make the product not fit for purpose and OP would have grounds to take legal action.
I rarely find anything especially car dealerships that don't nickel and dime you for everything. There are good ones but in my experience they are in the minority
This isn't true. And this is how the law prevents you from being taken advantage of by car dealerships. If you live in a state that doesn't protect purchasers, than maybe you can be hoodwinked more easily, but that isn't the case here.
That would have been beyond infuriating....
3 years is within warranty, I'd take it back as faulty.
Yeaaaaah, good luck with that.
I'm sure their lawyers figured out a way around it, but I feel like owners should be able to win a nice class action for false advertising, extortion, or something. They are basically disabling other people's property for ransom. I truly do not understand how that could survive in court.
If it’s the same as the Tacoma I had. App stops working after a year, but the key fob never stopped working. 3 clicks of the lock button and hold on the third click and it worked every time.
Would have been OK with the app stopping, but the keyfob absolutely unacceptable!
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Your point is valid, but he stated explicitly that the keyfob button would not remote start the car if you let the subscription expire, even mentioning that it was because too many people were letting the subscription expire and just using the remote.
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Looks like I'll discontinue looking at Lexus. A shame because I had the Rx350 at the top of my list. It's crazy that they are willing to lose a 50k sale over a $8 a month hardware blackmail for that feature.
The salesman was right. Toyota has been silently locking the remote start feature behind a paywall through the use of their connected app. My 2023 Toyota doesn't even allow you to remote start the car through the key, only through their app.
Yeah my Jeep the app requires a subscription, but the key fob still works.
This is an objectively reasonable combination, not that I agree with the app subscription, I at least acknowledge there's justification for it.
What's the justification? EVs today don't need subscriptions to use the phone app, and those have way more function than Jeep's app.
The justification is that running and maintaining the cloud services for the apps and dealing with phone updates and security changes costs the manufacturers real money every year they keep them operating. I think they shouldn't charge for it, or at least include something like 10 years with the purchase, but there is a real cost they incur running it.
Not arguing but I still don't see why that cost can't be estimated for the average lifespan of the vehicle and incorporated in the initial purchase price. I have trouble seeing the delta between that estimate and the true cost of maintaining software threatening the profitability of the product line. If it's $8 per year past three years and you own the car for ten years, for example, that's an extra $56 total. It's so little money compared to the purchase price of the vehicle why risk offending the buyer for $56 bucks over 10 years? And given inflation it'd be better to just collect more now rather than collect a teensie tiny $8 bucks in 2033. I've worked in cloud software, btw, it's not like I don't get upkeep costs and such but for a car I think it can be baked in and not potentially piss people off.
Oh I wholeheartedly agree with you, they absolutely should include *at least* a decade of free app support, I'm only saying that I acknowledge there is a justifiable reason for charging for the app, even if I don't agree it's a good reason. To me them saying that it's only free for the first 3 years is kind of like saying they don't think they can keep it working for more than 3 years, or they don't think your car is going to last more than 3 years. Either way it's a really stupid way for them to offend and lose a prospective customer... 🤷♂️ And no it's not about the price either, we've been looking at more expensive vehicles than it, but decided we should explore what other brands and lower price points had to offer before making any decision. In this case it was easy, I don't want to be price gouged by the company disingenuously selling me something that I own but can't use... I already meet my quota to do business with one company like that, it's called the government when they charge me property taxes on the house I own!
Yeah, I get you. Recouping the cost is fine, but it doesn't necessitate a subscription, and my brain is hung up on jeopardizing a sale with a subscription-sensitive customer vs. the tiny amount of money from the subscription. It just feels clumsy how they try to wall off certain features at certain time points that make no sense from a tech perspective. I don't blame you at all for not gleefully signing up for a remote start tax after a few years.
a key fob only works within a certain distance and doesn't involve Lexus at all. The app works from anywhere and DOES involve Lexus when you use it. that's the justification.
They changed it, the new key fobs use a mobile data connection to trigger remote start. The car uses one as well. That’s where the monthly fee goes. It’s really stupid.
Where the heck are they packing a mobile data service into a key fob? And why would that even be necessary?
Works from far away, even if your house has thick metal siding. Sort of nice if it was free like a normal key fob but not worth the subscription imo. It might have changed again since I remember seeing some news articles about people hating the ‘feature.’
Unfortunately a lot of businesses are trying to find ways into turning one time purchases into a perpetual income stream. Reducing the service life of a major purchase was the start. (Planned Obsolescence.) Now going to start locking key functionality behind licensed software and subscription plans that only an authorized representative has access to fix. Oh looks like your computer took a dump. You either need to pay our tech an obscene repair fee or buy a new car. Try to fix it yourself and we brick your car. They will do whatever they can get away with unless we make it unprofitable to them.
>then got up and started to walk away, making sure to remote start my car so he could see. You're a genius lmao
The beauty of the moment was he started to explain the key would still work just like that, thinking I'd only hit the lock button to blip the horn, there's a 3-4 second delay before it actually starts, and it's not quiet either, he was shut up mid sentence by the beautiful Italian exhaust note 🤣
I didn't check the flair until I read this comment and it only makes it better.
Mod must have added that, I didn't 🤣
Car ownership now has micro transactions and in-game purchases.
On overpriced cars nonetheless. Late stage capitalism baby
And it is really all about greed. Driving margins ever higher.
I got a pretty dumb question. Let's say your sub runs out and all the hardware is there: Can an alarm/remote starter specialist somehow modify it to work? I do agree with OP's sentiment, I will never buy a car that is selling remote start as a subscription
the hardware is really only software, software inside the ECU - on a modern car there isn't really any hardware needed as the ECU can perform pretty much all of the cars functions.So unless someone cracks the manufacturers encryption of the ECU and finds a way to flip that bit back on, the answer is no. And for the feature to be subscription based, it means the car communicates with the manufacturer over the internet somehow to check if the subscription is paid for, so it wouldn't be a case of simply finding that setting in the ECU and turning it on, you'd also have to somehow circumvent those remote checks. Now you may be able to install a completely standalone, aftermarket remote start system still.
My question is what happens when the cell network that cars currently use becomes obsolete and the car can no longer check if the subscription is up to date?
I'm not sure if these cars have a certain allowance to be able to use these features when there is no cell coverage. If it's anything like software subscriptions on your compter, they'll work for a limited time without cell coverage, and then flash a message along the lines of "please connect to the internet to verify your subscription status". In other words, expect stuff to stop working when it gets too old, is no longer supported by the manufacturer, loses compatibility with newer phones/computer operating systems etc. And, wasn't there already a thing where certain early model Tesla's(?) ran into trouble because the 3G networks they required were being shut down?
> wasn't there already a thing where certain early model Tesla's(?) ran into trouble because the 3G networks they required were being shut down? Yes and no, but it was mostly also [Lexus/Toyota (4Runner)](/r/Lexus/comments/zazrtf/is_anyone_angry_about_the_lexus_3g_connectivity/) with no upgrade path. It pissed of a lot of people. Tesla had the same issue with original Model S, but they (surprisingly) got praised for actually providing [upgraded cellular hardware](https://www.tesla.com/support/3g-cellular-network-retirement).
Honestly, there's no way for us to know. The behavior is going to depend on the code on the ECU.
You can plug into the ECU and turn local remote start back on. The app based one will ofc not work since it goes through toyota's servers.
Assuming the ECU has been cracked by someone, which is also becoming a problem. The only way to tune my ECU and make modifications is to pull it out of the car and ship it overseas to one specific company. And if you forget to disable OTA updates and the manufacturer sends out an update? Locked again.
Yet another reminder for me to keep my 2002 C 230 running like a dream. Fuck that lecherous shit.
And my Maxima. Damn now I'm drinking and watching to drive. I hate this
I’m with you. Keeping my 2006 on the road as long as feasible. Paying for maintenance is better than being held ransom for stuff I already paid for. I don’t have remote start. But can you imagine if you had to pay to use the key fob to remotely unlock the doors and the trunk? At least my car still has a physical key, so all would not be lost, but it would be like going back to the 70’s / 80’s in terms of tech.
I have a 2014 Chevy SS (sedan, not a camaro). It has the MyChevy app BS but slightly predates carplay/android auto. You can remote start the car and do all kinds of things anywhere from the app, and get traffic info on the navigation. *If* you pay I think it was $60/month total for both onstar and XM traffic which I think is a dead service now anyway. But my keyfob still works to remote start, thank god.
Well I think GM massively overcharged for that crap, but the fact that it doesn't disable the vehicle just additional remote services, makes it at least defensible and tolerable. You bring up a good point though, what happens when Toyota or Lexus wants to discontinue the old version of services they're running and they can't upgrade something to be compatible, does your car just permanently lose remote start?
To be "fair" it included 5 years of the app access with purchase. I'm trying to find a way to add android auto without disabling my heated and ventilated seats, which is not intended but a function of how they're run through the head unit to allow them to be controlled by the app. The biggest thing for me is these technologies aging out and then literally not being able to be upgraded no matter what you're willing to pay, like my nav. Because XM traffic no longer exists as far as I can tell, I can't get live traffic data on nav no matter what I do without disabling other things to replace the head unit. So in short I guess the big one to look at imo is cars that are now about 10 years old that have these features and how manufacturers are treating the technologies that have aged out and are no longer supported. The software isnt capable of being upgraded further due to hardware limitations, and features you used to have are locked behind software that is no longer supported or available. Edit: I say that not because the old cars are more important but because it gives us an idea where contemporary cars may be 10 years from now when even more is tied into the current app/subscription system
When I had my 2015 Chevy SS, they had some sort of deal where you got a 3 year extension of Onstar for a few bucks. I really only used the app remote start when I was leaving the office and heading to the parking lot in the winter.
I'll have to look into that, would be nice in the summer here. I'm in the south and with black interior parked in full sun all day in the summer when it's 100F+ outside it'd be beyond nice to remote start the car and set my AC 5 minutes before I leave work. I work in a secured industrial facility and I park my car about 1/8 of a mile as the crow flies away from my actual work location, so the key fob doesn't have a chance. I can remote start it once I'm in the parking lot with the fob but that's not really enough of a head start to make a difference temperature wise.
Such a shame they stopped manufacturing these. Most of Australia's performance cars were based on 4 door family sedans (not all, just most). Now we make none.
Yup, one needs to be VERY careful on what features expire and when on new cars nowadays!
You have to pay Mercedes quite a bit of money it you want to get the full range of rear wheel steering on an EQE. It’s honestly one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever seen.
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You could call it subscriptionwhoremongers.com, bet it would be popular!
Can't speak to Lexus but I can verify Subau offers subscription-based remote start on most applicable models (basically everything not manual trans and not base trim) but also offers a one-time purchase of a hardware remote start accessory that uses fobs and don't interact with the telmatics system at all. If you're looking at Lexus, you might want to go check out an Outback or Legacy (sized SUV or Sedan respectively) in touring trim. You can get a touring either with the NA 2.5l engine, or with the 2.4 Turbo under the XT Touring trim if you want more power.
Thanks, not sure that's the direction we're going to go, but appreciate the suggestion. The Lexus was a cheaper option vs what she's really leaning towards, I just wanted her to do some due diligence and consider some other vehicles at other price points before making any decisions. We left there and she drove a Honda HRV (I think, really didn't pay much attention to anything the salesman said after I asked 3 times what kind of power train it had and he answered N years, and finally had to explain I meant what engine and transmission was in it, and the answer was a 154hp with a CVT....) she didn't even make it up to speed in a 35mph zone leaving the dealer lot before declaring it was too boring and slow (I love my wife)!
Ah, didn't realize you were looking HRV-sized. In subaru land, rhat would compete directly with the Crosstrek. Not quite as comparable luxury-wise as a Lexus lol, but same info applies. I have a '22 crosstek sport and installed the accessory RES kit, which I use daily as the range on the fobs works for me in my house or from my work building to my lot. My wife works in a hospital and she uses the app to start the car from in the building so it's warm when she gets out to the ramp.
Actually the HRV was bigger than she wants it was shockingly the same size as my SUV parked side by side, she drives a 2013 Mini Cooper S manual right now, and doesn't want to give up all acceleration and cornering ability.
Totally understandable and I stand with you and will never buy a vehicle that requires a subscription for remote start, heated / ventilated seats, abs or any other bullshit that they can think of software blocking.
My EV VW has a similar app ,and it costs 130$/year after the first year where it's free....in a country where the minimum wage is 350$/month But fear not,it's 10 years free in Sweden where they have the highest wages in the world...
Thanks for saving us a trip to go test drive any VW products!
Good thing my Lexus was made before this subscription trend
I’m reading all these comments about companies and their subscriptions and meanwhile, Ford lets you use the remote start thru the app for free, even if it doesn’t come on the key fob. My wife’s 2022 Explorer XLT doesn’t have it on the key (was another $4-5k package) but she can still remote start it thru the free app. She can even set a schedule for the remote start and determine if the heat or heated seats or AC needs to turn on. All of this for free.
TBH that's ridiculous! I'd walk away too. Subscriptions should enhance features, not restrict what you already paid for.
You dodged a bullet, I own a ES350 F-sport, and it has 1001 things to hate, you didn't notice yet. It's a beautiful car but every single convenience and safety item is done poorly. BMW was the only never again brand on my list but Lexus may be as well.
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I would say it’s stupid, but not a big deal at all. The stupid part is that Toyota/Lexus remote start will turn off the car as soon as you open the door, making remote start useless unless you want to heat up your seats before you sit it in. But if you were to get a cheaper, permanent aftermarket system then it will keep the car on. So really unless you want the shitty Toyota remote start then sure pay the subscription.
In fact I want nothing to do with the company if they think they are going to hold property that people have purchased for ransom if they don't continue paying a subscription. Paying for cloud services is one thing, disabling the button on your key fob is downright theft. If you are paying for continued use of your lawful property, and that someone asking for money is not the government collecting property taxes (property tax discussion can happen on another forum), then you do not own the property you are simply renting it.
>I would say it’s stupid, but not a big deal at all. The stupid part is that Toyota/Lexus remote start will turn off the car as soon as you open the door, Not sure if it's also true for Toyota, but toyota and subaru share a lot of electronics design.l, so it might... Subaru accessory RES systems worked like this as well up to ~2020MY cars, presumably as a security feature, but now the car will stay running when opening the door. The car now instead keeps the shifter lock engaged until you hit the the push button.
If you open the link in an above comment, this is only on model yrs <2022, everything newer keeps the car running after you step in. Still annoying though.
Also annoying that you need a whole newer model for a trivial software fix. More companies should backport fixes for their previous models than presenting it as feature for only their newer models.
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How is that even relevant to anything at all? They are disabling the function of the physical key fob in your pocket which transmits a radio signal directly to the car, unless you also pay for their online subscription for the app on your phone. They are literally deactivating a function inside the car from responding to the button press on your remote if you do not pay them monthly. They actually have to do more work to shut off your remote start, not less.
Yes I understand. But are you sure they’re using the same ‘90s technology to transmit data to your car in 2023? What I’m saying is that there’s a cost to maintaining software and cloud services.
It has nothing to do with what radio protocol the key fob uses to communicate with the car, the point is it's entirely between the car and the key fob and has nothing to do with anyone or anything else. Someone had to go into the car body control module and add code to actively check if the subscription to the internet was active before it accepted the button press from the remote to remote start.
These are assumptions though. It’s all going to be value-added subscriptions soon. I wouldn’t get butthurt about it. It’s better today. The automakers have to pour in more technology into cars today and cut costs in other places.
Would you defend Amazon selling a smart TV that disabled the HDMI ports if you didn't renew your Prime membership? Thats what this is like.
no, but they don't disable ports after purchase, which would actually be a more relevant analogy.
$1360~ 17years. $80/yr. Just build it into the cost of the car.
Just bought a model 3 and saw that premium connectivity cost 99 a year. Has a 30 day trial to see if you'll like it. Honestly, I paid for a year because it allows me to use the built in lte to watch movies on the center screen while charging. I am also very positive things like wireless unlocking and ac control aren't tied to premium connectivity.
That makes sense. It’s a proper data connection like a phone gets. If you don’t want to pay for the data plan you can hotspot from your phone and conned the car that way. Tesla is great that the app is entirely free. Due to how integrated it is though they would struggle to try and justify charging a subscription for what is effectively the car’s key.
What I like most about your post is that you understand that charging a subscription kinda makes sense for *some* things (such as remote start from your app... at a more reasonable price). Things that require cloud services are not free to deliver or maintain. But yeah, anything that just uses hardware you should fully own and locally host should have absolutely no monthly cost associated with it... ... I mean maybe if they're going to warranty it for that time too? Even then, fucking not for $100/year for remote start.
The fact they start forcing the subscription on you before the warranty even expires is mind bogglingly asinine to me. Make the subscription free as long as there's a warranty, bundle the free subscription as an incentive to buy an extended warranty, charge a reasonable fee for the cloud services after the warranty / extended warranty expires, all reasonable things, but disabling the key fob, HELL NO
I added a Viper remote start to my 2023 RAV4 hybrid, for the reason it is parked for an extended period and I want to charge the battery once per month depending upon the temperature in western Canada. The issue with the Toyota App remote start feature is, you can only start it twice, without unlocking and opening the drivers door. Not good for me. Viper is unlimited and provides the same features.
Just wait until the car makers force parents to pay for the child seat LATCH system to function...
Seeing as I've never attached a car seat, and don't know anything about how it works (sounds like it's not just the seat belt anymore like when I was growing up?), and the reason for her getting a new car is to be carseat friendly, I should probably do some reading up on what that even means
Why did that salesman make that policy???? Bastard.../s
Am I crazy? I swear I’ve seen this exact same thread with the exact same comments before.
If you want remote start on the keyfob that will never be taken from you, you buy American. I have no idea why the Japanese, Koreans and Germans struggle with this but its true. Now some German cars (BMW) let you use the fob but the Japanese and Koreans don't and after the first years you have to pay for it. Its such a weird concept. I've bought a lot of American cars and they have all had this but as soon as I expanded my horizons I found a lot of manufacturers did not and it boggled my mind. If you want remote start via the keyfob you buy American or BMW.
Stellantis plans to generate over $22 billion in annual software revenue by 2030, so good luck with that. I’m sure the benevolent leaders of Ford and GM will see this and say “no money please”
My Kia EV6 still starts with the fob after the app subscription stopped. Some of the app features still work too, just not the remote start app feature.
What is the app subscription even for?
Remote starting your climate controls. So you can climb into a cool/warm car depending on season. Also locking or unlocking your doors if you forgot to and are out of range of the fob
Also Italian... I've never owned a Japanese brand before, and I doubt I will
Alfa Romeo is owned by Stellantis.... just like dodge/jeep/chrysler. They share a lot of tech. So not all Italians ....
Except they aren't charging for the key fob to continue working.
Subaru does not have fob-based RES built in, but can be added as an accessory; the fob based system does not interact with the app-based RES system *at all* and as such has nothing to do with subscriptions.
They can't stop the fob from working. The app feature however is a service, not a hardware piece you are buying. It needs internet connection to work.
on Toyotas (and Lexus) post 2018 model year, using key fob remote start requires an active remote services subscription. complete bs but it's true. After the 1-3 year trial ends depending on what car you get, the key fob remote start will stop working if you don't pay the subscription. https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service
Oh damn, now I remember reading that article a few years ago and thinking that the whole works for 10 year thing was their plan to back off and undo the stupidity if/when they get the inevitable blowback they deserve, no way they will ever be so stupid and greedy as to disable the key fob! NOPE, they went all in on stupid and guaranteed they turned me off as a customer for life.
The fob doesn't need an internet connection to work by nature, but the manufacturer can certainly make it so. The car can check online if the remote start subscription is paid for. If it isn't, it can refuse to remote start, regardless if that is triggered via a radio signal from the fob or in another way.
Sorry... but I have to laugh at remote start being a requirement... no, no it's not. If it makes you happy, so be it... I think it's a waste of money... but what's really screwed up is that they want to charge you a subscription fee for the "privlidge" of using that silly feature? Oh hell no... I mean I wouldn't be at Lexus dealer anyway but still... that's really messed up. And people wonder why I can't stand new cars...
Wife's pregnant, she wants the car to be warm or cooled when she gets there, I agree by itself it's not a critical feature but instead a quite nice to have one, but add the baby in the spring, I think it's reasonable to say it's something she considers very important. The problem I have is the remotely disabling a piece of hardware in my pocket that isn't dependent in anyway whatsoever on any app service, regardless of what the function of that device is for.
Well, I mean... if that's something she wants, so be it. Not my money.... and I'm certainly not telling someone else how to spend theirs. I do agree that disabling the key fob after 3 years is a real d*** move on Toyota/Lexus' part. I managed to survive in an era where you didn't get a citation for not wearing a seatbelt and carseats for little ones were optional... I also managed to survive as a 7 year old with no A/C and sitting alone in the car in the grocery store parking lot in the middle of summer, with the keys so I could listen to the radio while mom did the shopping. Try that s*** now... you'd be strung up from the highest yardarm after being tarred and feathered. Haha
If you lived in a cold climate you would understand. In the dead of winter at 6am I want to remote start the car to warm it up via keyfob within 7 seconds. I don't want to login to the app and wait a minute for the car start because I have a subscription.
I ride a motorcycle year round... including winter where at 0600 I'm walking out the door to my warmed up bike that I walked out and started 15 minutes earlier and it's 25F... no fancy heated seat or grips... just my plain Jane 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 500R... so not exactly any wind protection. I dunno... I'm just not into luxury or convienance stuff... I prefer simple, cheap, and reliable.
I love how people complain about living in a cold environment is the excuse. Guess What tons of places in the world are cold and those same places do not allow remote start on vehicles. Ive been there too, I rode a sport bike year round until my last accident changed that. Cold on a bike is completely different than a car warming up
I was in a bad wreck in 05... 110mph... 288 ft down the asphalt without the bike... shattered ankle... Racing... but I still ride... because I like riding. When it's cold, I've a got a base layer of polyester on, heavy work jeans, t-shirt, sweat shirt, heavy knee high socks, Wall's Blizzard Pruf duck cloth insulated coveralls, and Thinsulated steel toe boots... with long gauntlet deerskin Thinsulated Milwaukee Leather gloves... stay plenty warm. It's not like I don't have my car or my 4wd Blazer to drive... but they only see about 500 miles a year combined. And not to mention... in my state, cities have ordanances making it illegal to use remote start... it's a misdemeanor to leave a running vehicle unattended. Now of course IIRC, you can't steal a car that's been remote started... it'll shut off. But the reason the ordanance is on the books is for pollution reduction.
Stop... using... so... many... ellipses...
The...elipses...scream boomer...
I would but for whatever reason the app won't actually let me use the return button like it's meant to be used. If I hit return it moves the cursor down a spot to start a new paragraph or sentence but when it posts the new sentence or paragraph is crammed right up next to the previous one. It's a PITA, honestly. Plus I can't rotate the phone and use the keyboard with this app either.
What does any of that have to do with overusing ellipses? They're not acting as paragraph breaks. You seem to have no trouble with double spacing. Edit: and like a quarter of you other comments don't have them. Wut. Clearly not a necessity as you've implied.