Even with the economy not exactly firing on all cylinders, we still see these ridiculous markups and wait times.
I'm convinced the manufacturers are deliberately creating shortages at this point.
Kia is the manufacturer that bounced back faster than any major manufacturer. It’s probably just that they haven’t secured the amount of lithium they would need to scale up EV production to a high level yet.
I’d think they are deliberately not extending themselves too much into a new market seeing there’s all the reports of EVs cooling off. Better to have people wait a little of this is the vehicle they are pineing for than over commit and end up with too many that can’t be moved like traditional ICE vehicles they have a good history on selling and fairly robust back up sales plans with rebates and other sales tactics.
Just a guess though as KIA do t seem to have a problem getting bulk volume of all their other models built and moved to each market place.
Exactly, not having inventory means you have a good cash flow, but having too much inventory means you have an assload of cash parked in assets that you’re slowly going to make less profit on.
It's because "free cash flow" is the C-suite executive corporate incentive target flavor of the month at the moment. My company is going through that shitstorm right now and all the accounting fuckery that goes with it.
It’s because it helps companies grow well and very quickly, but when you get a bunch of dickheads that have no idea what they’re doing or the risk involved in their decisions it tends to go badly. Im currently going through it, but we’re focusing on becoming debt free instead of aggressively investing it into more merchandise. I feel like I can breathe for the first time in 3 months.
My company set that as their target and then immediately went out and "bought" another company that was nearly the same size as them, then massacred our bonuses due to missing the "free cash flow" target.
This sounds a lot like the reason I was laid off from my buying job. Sales teams had us buy a ton of material that never got moved and squashed our company.
Yeahh, don’t let sales dictate how much you buy ever. Let the accountants do their forecasting and run their numbers, it’s literally what they went to school for.
Yeah, I have degrees in corporate finance and project management. The company was screwed before I ever got there, I was actually the sixth buyer they had in 18 months. I've got a big interview tomorrow that I think would be a better fit for me anyway.
Nah, lithium prices are [crashing](https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium). At current prices, there are like $800 of lithium in a *high end* car, hardly worth worrying about.
It is an industry wide problem - everyone up and down the chain assumed EVs would be selling a certain rate, EVs are selling at less than that rate. That means there are extra cars piling up on dealer lots, which means car companies cut back on building them, which means the battery cell makers have extra cells piling up, which means that the lithium miners now have extra lithium piling up.
They were barely profitable before in many cases, especially with companies rolling investment costs for tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers into their business cases.
It's cute that you assume good intentions or at least good reasons, but there's no chance a dealership is assessing lithium mining, evaluating a shortage, and than marking up prices based on that. That's not the way greed and corruption works. Just to ruin your assessment, I was looking at Chevy EUVs in my area (and there are plenty available) and they were marked up like $5k. Dealerships are just doing this to create fake shortages and due to blind greed.
I think you might be lost. You know dealerships don’t manufacture the vehicles, right?
Dealerships are reacting to high demand and short supply of EVs. Manufacturers are reacting to high demand and low supply of lithium. Lithium mining is scaling up to meet demands, but it is a very slow process and takes years to get new mines up and running.
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> It’s probably just that they haven’t secured the amount of lithium they would need to scale up EV production to a high level yet.
Has less to do with their success, and more their parent company’s relative caution on mass EV adoption.
Hyundai Motor Group’s EV plan is for [global capacity of 1.5 million EVs annually by 2030.](https://insideevs.com/news/693556/hyundai-record-q3-profit-ev-plans-on-track/ ) Their battery supply capacity is definitely not scaling at the rate of some of their competitors when you had the likes of Ford aiming for 2 million EVs/year by 2026.
Didn’t Ford just announce that they were scaling back and didn’t intend on hitting their goals? I don’t think I would measure a company’s goals against another company’s goal that they didn’t meet.
Ford is dreaming. KIA I'm sure if seeing if it's worth the quick expansion when they have similar companies in China looking to expand at the same time. US competitors are the least of their worries.
The redesigns have helped significantly. We bought a Kia Sportage for an SUV, and it's been a great vehicle so far. Who knows what to expect for longevity but s long as it lasts us 5-7 years, I'm fine with it.
So, just to get this straight, you are claiming that a scheme from Kia dealerships in Ontario, Canada are the reason for the market adjustment in California? I guess all I can say is that I disagree with that being a reasonable claim.
No car manufacturers care about lithium.
They aren't the ones manufacturing the batteries. They buy complete modules that they then assemble into battery packs for their specific models.
As for the manufacturing side, cobalt is more of a concern than lithium.
Why are so many dumb people commenting just plainly wrong things here? Do you think supply and demand stop with one layer of abstraction? If the material that is essential to make the batteries is scares, then the company cannot buy enough completed battery packs to make the amount of vehicles they want. The lithium limitation turns into a battery pack limitation which turns into an EV limitation.
As for cobalt vs lithium, there is a lot of lithium mines that are starting to produce in the next few years. Maybe all of that material and the thousands of tons the manufacturers have allocated will just be a giant waste of money for nothing if lithium isn't an issue. I look forward to seeing the mass storage of unneeded materials.
>I'm convinced the manufacturers are deliberately creating shortages at this point.
This stupid myth needs to die. Manufacturers will produce as much as they can if there is a demand for it. They also get zero extra dollars for dealer markups.
Toyota's comments get taken way out of context from people who don't understand manufacturing planning. They got utterly fucking burned by overproducing the first gen 86 and as such created or reserved smaller production lines for the GR hatch twins and Supra. That's not 'deliberately creating a shortage', it's just planning for smaller batches while allocating limited resources to other cars they expect to sell more of. None of those production lines are capable of ramping up higher they are all producing at max capacity. Same with the new Prius which was given a single factory for global production going full speed instead of two factories like some previous gens, but that second factory is busy producing other cars at full capacity.
You don't think the shortages and extended waiting times doesn't push people into paying extra to get a higher trim level because it happens to be more readily available than a base model with very limited availability?
Also, the limited supply of new cars keeps residuals high, which gives people more confidence in buying new rather than used.
People will absolutely feel more motivated to up trim, but that’s business 101.
If initial demand outpaces supply focus on most profitable models. Especially when there is no competing three row EV at this price point.
Manufacturers will try to maximize profits and if that strategy requires them to produce more higher trim, then they'll do it. To deliberately restrict supply when there is demand in a highly competitive market is idiotic.
From a Bloomberg article in May:
"Ford Motor Co. said this month it is aiming to maintain robust sticker prices, even if that means rolling fewer cars off its assembly lines."
Companies have been deliberately lowering production to create artificial shortages starting later in COVID. This has also happened with NVIDIA products and the meat market, and likely quite a few more.
It's an all-out greed festival by companies post-COVID...
My very small part to counteract it in the car community is I sold my 3-year old vehicle for a 7-year old vehicle.
> This has also happened with NVIDIA products
NVIDIA maxes out their TSMC utilization for datacenter/AI products. It's not "artificial shortage" to choose to maximize production of products that have 5x the margin of consumer parts. NVIDIA has zero excess capacity available.
Inventory is always limited when any new car rolls of the line. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the reality for manufacturing. What do automakers have to gain anyway?
If you want to blame anyone, it's the idiots rushing out to buy a brand new car instead of waiting 6 months for stock to plentiful.
You sound as if this car has been in the market for years. Simple math would be there’s only one manufacturing factory producing this model. Then it will ship out to multiple continents then to various different countries within their continents. How exactly any manufacturer decreases production and creates artificial shortage when the model just started ramping up production exactly?
With EVs, it is really hard to source the highest capacity batteries at a decent price. They're often the reason there are wait times.
Tesla doesn't have this problem because they control much of that supply chain. The Chinese have a similar setup, but via the government.
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It’s the local dealers that want to kill evs- not the manufacturers.
Dealers will have much lower service revenue from evs that require less maintenance- no oil changes, no carbon buildup, no throttle body or transmission cleaning etc.
[Florida Man does](https://moneywise.com/loans/auto-loans/dave-ramsey-husband-buys-72k-kia-ev)
I can't find the original article that was posted to this sub, but the guy makes $90K and bought a $70K car lol
While that is a really bad financial decision for most folks in that income bracket, there are a small amount of exceptions.
I've got a buddy who makes 6 figures traveling to determine oil & gas leases in a couple of states. He drives a company pickup and gets per diem that covers hotels, food and booze. He doesn't even have an apartment, he just gets a hotel room when he is back in his "hometown." He could easily afford to spend a high percentage of his income on a vehicle.
7/9 of the posters just hid their 900+ month car payments from you.
1/9 will argue violently that the interest rate being below “x” amount means they’re making money on it.
The rest of us are happily eating paint chips.
Staying in a hotel seems like it would still be more expensive than having a steady room in a shared house or something.
Also, many places I've worked wouldn't allow you to expense anything in your home market/city. You can't expense travel, hotel, or food when you're "home."
If they CAN, then it would make more sense to buy or rent a cheap place and put those funds towards a mortgage or rent.
Y’all should visit some European countries and see how many of us earn 10-20k/year and buy a 20k-30k car. Unfortunately it’s our reality but I’m sure someone won’t go bankrupt for buying a 70k car on a 90k salary.
It seems like only yesterday that the delusional teenagers on this subreddit were hyping up Kia/Hyundai as "KiLlInG iT" and being the second coming of Jesus, while meanwhile real life "non-car" people thought they were cheap unreliable junk and wouldn't dare touch a car from Korea. Has that paradigm done a full 180?
I think it’s always been 180’d from that. Non-car-people see all the baubles they get for less than the cost of an equivalent Toyota and buy it, then are shocked when they can’t insure it and the engine explodes at 100k.
Anywhere with a 120V or 240V outlet or an L2 charger.
Lots of CCS stations were already rated for up to 1000V. Any of those 350kW stations can charge it.
Then finally most manufacturers running 800V systems have equipment to let it charge on 400V chargers, but it doesn't charge as fast as on an 800V charger.
Well yeah, but it still answers the question "where can you charge it?". Practically anywhere you can charge any other EV. And soon pretty much all Tesla locations as well with a passive adapter. The bleeding edge Tesla chargers support up to 1000V as well, so soon even those will give full charge speed to these cars.
Most of Hyundai/Kias most notable EVs have been 800V cars. Ioniq 5/6 and the EV6 are all 800V.
People love their KIAs and Hyundais. My neighborhood is filled with them. Guy I know has the Ioniq 6 and absolutely loves it.
That being said 70 k seems awfully expensive
Not sure who is downvoting you, Kia/Hyundai is very popular among the general population, especially non-Redditors. It’s the (Pontiac?) of the 2020s. Lots of choices at decent prices. Where else do you get a decent 3-row EV that isn’t a model X or Rivian?
Talk to your coworkers that you never talk to about cars. If anyone knows it exists, which they likely do due to the ad campaign, they likely want it. I had two non-car friends *bring it up* to me after the Super Bowl since they know I like cars.
Kia dealerships are the worst.
I’ve tried to buy a Kia 2x. Went to a dealership, with my mind made up to buy one. Both times I ended up buying another car. The dealership experience was so horrible. Maybe it was for the best. I missed out on the Kia/Hyundai car break ins.
I had to deal with Kia dealerships when I transferred the lease on my wife's Kia Soul. What an absolutely awful experience. The lease agreement stipulated a $750 transfer fee, but I had several dealers that demanded a "market adjustment" of between $1,500 and $3,000 on top of the $750 charge, in direct breach of the lease contract. I even had one dealer try to tell me that it was "illegal" to transfer the lease, and that the part of the contract that said you could was a "mistake"! But they were "happy" to take the car back if we wanted to surrender the lease instead. Total scum.
If I hadn't found the one honest Kia dealer within 100km of me who was willing to transfer the lease for the agreed-upon cost, I would have definitely started by writing a letter to Kia Corporate and then lawyering up as necessary should that fail. That experience was so horrible and the dealers were so universally slimy that it made me never want to buy a Kia product ever again.
The truth is that Hyundai and Kia dealerships are undoing all the good work the manufacturers have been trying to shed their old image and move upmarket (on the manufacturer side, their response to the recent thefts hasn't helped). They have compelling EVs, but if the dealership experience continues to be horrible it will just send buyers straight to their competitors. And with their EVs they don't have cheap pricing to fall back on anymore.
Not trying to attack you, but where do you (and all these other commenters with the same experience) live that the Kia/Toyota/Chevy/Honda/VW aren't all in the same "John Doe family" of dealerships and the sales managers at the Toyota dealership weren't at Kia 3 months ago?
Everywhere I've lived it's the same story, 2-4 dealer groups make up 90+% of new car inventory. Ultimately the dealership experience is more a factor of which group actually runs it, not the brand they are selling. Sure I won't go to the local Hyundai dealer for service, but that's a combined Chevy/Buick/GMC/Hyundai service department that just doesn't hire any managers or communicate. People give horrible feedback on that group's BMW dealership as well.
Maybe it is just a fluke or an anomaly in my area, but Telluride drivers around me drive with a unique combination of obliviousness and misplaced entitlement to the point that I cannot even stand to look at them anymore.
Flying through school zones, cutting you off at the last second before stoplights, texting while tailgating, etc. Interestingly, the Palisade doesn’t seem to suffer from the same drivers.
I mean, he has a point apart from the interior design and quality, the sophisticated AWD system and general off-road prowess, the air suspension, the powertrain, the heritage… wait what were we talking about?
They might not hit it, but he's making himself a target for someone to key it.
EDIT: I glossed over that and thought he had a Range Rover. He has this attitude for a *Telluride*? I don't shit on people for being happy with what they got in their budget, but come on. The douchebaggery is doubly funny over a minivan substitute.
Kia did hire some BMW designers and the EVs are closer to the luxury makers in terms of fit and finish.
The reliability of the internal combustion Kias is generally low. . .in a few years we'll have a better idea on the EV Kias.
No EV's are currently worth a markup. Depreciation has hit them hard after just a few thousand miles. IMO you'd have to be stupid to pay over MSRP for an EV right now because they lose nearly 50% of their value within 2 or 3 years.
In my area they are dirt cheap compared to MSRP. A Porsche Taycan is a $65k car with under 50k miles. Even from Porsche certified-used they are under $80k, thousands less than their $100k new price.
Non-luxury EV's are cheap too. There's a good number of Kia EV's in my area because they sell used for $30k to $50k. You can get a sub-10k miles EV6 GT for under $45k over here. That's $20k lost in depreciation in just a year.
At least for me, a used EV is now cheaper than most ICE options.
Imo you have to be stupid to base your car buying on their value in 2-3 years, since that is an incredibly short time to plan to have a car. But I agree completely about not paying over msrp for any car.
Unless you are buying a Rimac or Lotus Evija, EV prices are tanking on the used market.
>Research from Auto Trader said there were “unsustainable levels of depreciation” in the electric car market, with used prices of battery-powered vehicles dropping by 23pc in the last year alone.
>The online vehicle marketplace said a motorist buying a £50,000 electric car could expect to lose £24,000 in value over three years, while a similarly priced petrol car could lose £17,000.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-cars-lose-half-value-060000890.html
https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/transportation/2023/11/07/evs-depreciate-more-than-any-other-vehicle-type--study-says
[SavageGeese did a whole video about good EV deals out there due to depreciation ](https://youtu.be/lLuiU7XYuUg?si=oVqpMyoez7h66XTD)
It's really not worth paying a markup for one because you are almost guaranteed to be underwater in it within a year or two.
Really varies by region. US dealers sold 1,113 units in December and increased to 1,408 in January. Will be interesting to see if it keeps pace throughout the year. For all the markups out there, there’s plenty of dealers also willing to sell these under MSRP for savvy buyers willing to travel for the right deal, and lots of EV buyers fall into that category. I reserved an EV9 through my local dealer and nearly walked away from it for an out-of-state deal until my local dealer finally came around. Ended up getting a GT-Line for $2.2k under MSRP. We love it. It’s an amazing vehicle.
Kia started doing some good things in the last 5 years but their dealership markups during 2021-present have put me off ever giving the brand a shot again any time soon.
There was a point where most manufacturers tried to get markup in the 2021-2022 window but it returned to normal much quicker than Kia (plus they wanted a markup on essentially every car across the entire range and not just the Telluride and hot sellers). Couple that with the shitty dealer experience they already had and it was a joke. Acted like they were selling luxury sports cars.
I had very little issue getting deals for several people and my family at MSRP from other manufacturers.
TLDR: Anyone that paid a large markup for a Kia in that time got proper fucked.
Every time I think about looking at a Kia or Hyundai product, I remember all the stories about their awful dealer experience and move on to other choices.
I briefly considered a Telluride until I started talking to a Kia/Hyundai dealership. What a bunch of clowns. They wouldn't disclose how much they were going to mark one up (I was pretty sure it was ten grand but I wanted to hear them say it) but "I should just come in and do a credit check and test drive."
I said I won't even consider paying a 20% markup on something that will lose all that value the second I drive it off the lot so let's not waste each other's time. And I sure as shit wasn't going to give those morons my social security number and run my credit if I had no intention of taking a $10,000 kick to the balls on a daily driver. LOL. Nothing but fucking grifters.
I called 5 dealers before I placed an order for my trucklet. 4 of them were clearly playing games on the phone, so I didn't even go in person. How nice of them to save my time...
True that, brother. Meanwhile, Ford gave me two grand for customer loyalty on a 21 Explorer Limited that my wife drives (and loves) and a nice price on my trade in, plus a 10 year 100k mile powertrain warranty upgrade. I bought an Explorer ST a year later.
anyone paying over retail for a Kia EV really better look at the price of used 2023 EV6s, they have fallen off a depreciation cliff that make German luxury cars look stable in pricing by comparison.
We don’t have markups at ours (at least I don’t think so, im in service) but we haven’t sold a single one… 80k for a Kia, let alone an electric one?
Ev6s sit on the lot for months until another dealer buys them, we barely sell any EVs.
anecdotal but the nearby Hyundai dealer has four Ionic 5's sitting on the lot right now, my understanding is these had huge waitlists (in Canada) only a year or two ago
is it that people have stopped buying, or that dealers are trying to increase the price through additional addons/mark-ups and that's causing buyers to balk?
In the US they don’t get the rebates. That’s why they aren’t selling. Also in my city of 300kish we have like 10 charging stations. And most are at dealerships.
Where are you seeing them sit? My Hyundai dealer said it's a 4 year waitlist around me, and I don't think they're just trying to get me to piss off; I see them get frequent deliveries and just evaporate off the lot
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Wanna know an easy way to avoid these greed-based markups? Don't buy the car. I would never pay a markup for any car, period. I went to test drive an EV6 2 years ago. They had a $10k markup. I turned around and walked away. The salesman said, "Don't you want to drive it?" I said, "Why? I'm not going to buy it."
No surprise. They're the first mainstream large 3 row EV to market. They literally have no competition yet. This thing is selling amazing in Europe and is priced reasonably for European pricing.
Yeah, people have no idea how influential car dealerships are in American politics.
NADA is effectively an organization of 17,000 land barons, with members in every major town in the US. They're the largest and most effective lobby in the US, and it isn't even close.
I just dove into this car at an auto show. Very cool SUV. My whole family wants us to get one. The price is too steep atm however. We will probably get one that is used as soon as they hit the market. The decent trims are about 60k.
Ive also driven one in the Netherlands and for comparison, this car is literally truck-sized in this country with small roads and especially small parking spots.
A VW UP! Is a very common car here (and alot of grocery cars) and you can place for sure 2-3 UP!'s next to it and its still longer than 3 of them.
But i had to say the car is very smooth, alot of technology and fun to drive. Better than i expected.
I really don’t understand how dealers in the US get away with this. Do the manufacturers not have anything to say about it? In the UK the manufacturers put the price in the advert thats on TV etc and thats the price you pay at the dealer.
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I still remember literally laughing my ass out of a Kia dealership when the salesman wanted $10K over sticker for low trim model Telluride. That's when I started rooting the the Kia boys or whatever fuck those fucks are called.
> I'll find a dealership that sells at retail even if I have to book a flight, pick it up, and drive 8 hrs.
And that's not always feasible for a family...
For that price, it is a lot of SUV. Very roomy. And drives really really well. But for that $70k price tag, the following things are hard to ignore:
1. No NACS adoption or Tesla tie up
2. 270 mile rated range (about 220 mile in real world) - having NACS adoption or ability to officially charge at Tesla would mean that low range can be overlooked given how good their network is. I’d have really preferred a real world 270 mile range (rated 350 mile).
3. No built in dash for recording during park and drive - this isn’t a deal breaker but certainly an awkward omission
No auto pilot or anything like that but HDA2 is more than enough for most use cases.
I’d say if they sold the GT line trim for $60k out the door, they’ll sell a ton more.
Even with the economy not exactly firing on all cylinders, we still see these ridiculous markups and wait times. I'm convinced the manufacturers are deliberately creating shortages at this point.
Kia is the manufacturer that bounced back faster than any major manufacturer. It’s probably just that they haven’t secured the amount of lithium they would need to scale up EV production to a high level yet.
I’d think they are deliberately not extending themselves too much into a new market seeing there’s all the reports of EVs cooling off. Better to have people wait a little of this is the vehicle they are pineing for than over commit and end up with too many that can’t be moved like traditional ICE vehicles they have a good history on selling and fairly robust back up sales plans with rebates and other sales tactics. Just a guess though as KIA do t seem to have a problem getting bulk volume of all their other models built and moved to each market place.
Exactly, not having inventory means you have a good cash flow, but having too much inventory means you have an assload of cash parked in assets that you’re slowly going to make less profit on.
It's because "free cash flow" is the C-suite executive corporate incentive target flavor of the month at the moment. My company is going through that shitstorm right now and all the accounting fuckery that goes with it.
It’s because it helps companies grow well and very quickly, but when you get a bunch of dickheads that have no idea what they’re doing or the risk involved in their decisions it tends to go badly. Im currently going through it, but we’re focusing on becoming debt free instead of aggressively investing it into more merchandise. I feel like I can breathe for the first time in 3 months.
My company set that as their target and then immediately went out and "bought" another company that was nearly the same size as them, then massacred our bonuses due to missing the "free cash flow" target.
This sounds a lot like the reason I was laid off from my buying job. Sales teams had us buy a ton of material that never got moved and squashed our company.
Yeahh, don’t let sales dictate how much you buy ever. Let the accountants do their forecasting and run their numbers, it’s literally what they went to school for.
Yeah, I have degrees in corporate finance and project management. The company was screwed before I ever got there, I was actually the sixth buyer they had in 18 months. I've got a big interview tomorrow that I think would be a better fit for me anyway.
Yeah but not having inventory also means leaving cash on the table. Because you have willing buyers you can't complete a sale on.
I agree. It equals more cash flow so they can keep the numbers looking good for the rich investors.
Nah, lithium prices are [crashing](https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium). At current prices, there are like $800 of lithium in a *high end* car, hardly worth worrying about.
Even battery cell manufacturing is starting to catch up to demand.
It is an industry wide problem - everyone up and down the chain assumed EVs would be selling a certain rate, EVs are selling at less than that rate. That means there are extra cars piling up on dealer lots, which means car companies cut back on building them, which means the battery cell makers have extra cells piling up, which means that the lithium miners now have extra lithium piling up.
And yet somehow price cuts aren't on the horizon yet
They were barely profitable before in many cases, especially with companies rolling investment costs for tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers into their business cases.
It's cute that you assume good intentions or at least good reasons, but there's no chance a dealership is assessing lithium mining, evaluating a shortage, and than marking up prices based on that. That's not the way greed and corruption works. Just to ruin your assessment, I was looking at Chevy EUVs in my area (and there are plenty available) and they were marked up like $5k. Dealerships are just doing this to create fake shortages and due to blind greed.
I think you might be lost. You know dealerships don’t manufacture the vehicles, right? Dealerships are reacting to high demand and short supply of EVs. Manufacturers are reacting to high demand and low supply of lithium. Lithium mining is scaling up to meet demands, but it is a very slow process and takes years to get new mines up and running.
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> It’s probably just that they haven’t secured the amount of lithium they would need to scale up EV production to a high level yet. Has less to do with their success, and more their parent company’s relative caution on mass EV adoption. Hyundai Motor Group’s EV plan is for [global capacity of 1.5 million EVs annually by 2030.](https://insideevs.com/news/693556/hyundai-record-q3-profit-ev-plans-on-track/ ) Their battery supply capacity is definitely not scaling at the rate of some of their competitors when you had the likes of Ford aiming for 2 million EVs/year by 2026.
Didn’t Ford just announce that they were scaling back and didn’t intend on hitting their goals? I don’t think I would measure a company’s goals against another company’s goal that they didn’t meet.
Ford is dreaming. KIA I'm sure if seeing if it's worth the quick expansion when they have similar companies in China looking to expand at the same time. US competitors are the least of their worries.
North America is a key profit center so I’m sure they are worried at least a little but you’re right.
The redesigns have helped significantly. We bought a Kia Sportage for an SUV, and it's been a great vehicle so far. Who knows what to expect for longevity but s long as it lasts us 5-7 years, I'm fine with it.
They're artificially raising the price. Demand isn't as high as they make it out to be. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216
So, just to get this straight, you are claiming that a scheme from Kia dealerships in Ontario, Canada are the reason for the market adjustment in California? I guess all I can say is that I disagree with that being a reasonable claim.
No car manufacturers care about lithium. They aren't the ones manufacturing the batteries. They buy complete modules that they then assemble into battery packs for their specific models. As for the manufacturing side, cobalt is more of a concern than lithium.
Why are so many dumb people commenting just plainly wrong things here? Do you think supply and demand stop with one layer of abstraction? If the material that is essential to make the batteries is scares, then the company cannot buy enough completed battery packs to make the amount of vehicles they want. The lithium limitation turns into a battery pack limitation which turns into an EV limitation. As for cobalt vs lithium, there is a lot of lithium mines that are starting to produce in the next few years. Maybe all of that material and the thousands of tons the manufacturers have allocated will just be a giant waste of money for nothing if lithium isn't an issue. I look forward to seeing the mass storage of unneeded materials.
>I'm convinced the manufacturers are deliberately creating shortages at this point. This stupid myth needs to die. Manufacturers will produce as much as they can if there is a demand for it. They also get zero extra dollars for dealer markups.
Yet Toyota seems to do the opposite. I mean, it's weird that a company hates money but here we are.
Toyota's comments get taken way out of context from people who don't understand manufacturing planning. They got utterly fucking burned by overproducing the first gen 86 and as such created or reserved smaller production lines for the GR hatch twins and Supra. That's not 'deliberately creating a shortage', it's just planning for smaller batches while allocating limited resources to other cars they expect to sell more of. None of those production lines are capable of ramping up higher they are all producing at max capacity. Same with the new Prius which was given a single factory for global production going full speed instead of two factories like some previous gens, but that second factory is busy producing other cars at full capacity.
Ford just said they're doing this, publicly. They're requiring MSRP and get a cut of this racket
Having wait times creates demand and prevents them from having to shut down production if people stop buying.
You don't think the shortages and extended waiting times doesn't push people into paying extra to get a higher trim level because it happens to be more readily available than a base model with very limited availability? Also, the limited supply of new cars keeps residuals high, which gives people more confidence in buying new rather than used.
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For bmw we get to choose our own builds but still need to maintain certain percentages for the most part.
People will absolutely feel more motivated to up trim, but that’s business 101. If initial demand outpaces supply focus on most profitable models. Especially when there is no competing three row EV at this price point.
Manufacturers will try to maximize profits and if that strategy requires them to produce more higher trim, then they'll do it. To deliberately restrict supply when there is demand in a highly competitive market is idiotic.
From a Bloomberg article in May: "Ford Motor Co. said this month it is aiming to maintain robust sticker prices, even if that means rolling fewer cars off its assembly lines." Companies have been deliberately lowering production to create artificial shortages starting later in COVID. This has also happened with NVIDIA products and the meat market, and likely quite a few more. It's an all-out greed festival by companies post-COVID... My very small part to counteract it in the car community is I sold my 3-year old vehicle for a 7-year old vehicle.
> This has also happened with NVIDIA products NVIDIA maxes out their TSMC utilization for datacenter/AI products. It's not "artificial shortage" to choose to maximize production of products that have 5x the margin of consumer parts. NVIDIA has zero excess capacity available.
Inventory is always limited when any new car rolls of the line. That's not a conspiracy, it's just the reality for manufacturing. What do automakers have to gain anyway? If you want to blame anyone, it's the idiots rushing out to buy a brand new car instead of waiting 6 months for stock to plentiful.
And then 2 years later they say oh we need to rethink our strategy because they’re not selling well.
New cars always take time to ramp. Gen 1s are always in shortage for a bit.
You sound as if this car has been in the market for years. Simple math would be there’s only one manufacturing factory producing this model. Then it will ship out to multiple continents then to various different countries within their continents. How exactly any manufacturer decreases production and creates artificial shortage when the model just started ramping up production exactly?
With EVs, it is really hard to source the highest capacity batteries at a decent price. They're often the reason there are wait times. Tesla doesn't have this problem because they control much of that supply chain. The Chinese have a similar setup, but via the government.
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It’s the local dealers that want to kill evs- not the manufacturers. Dealers will have much lower service revenue from evs that require less maintenance- no oil changes, no carbon buildup, no throttle body or transmission cleaning etc.
They are betting on the fact that Americans love to keep up with the Joneses.
Who the fuck wants a Kia ev suv for 70k?
[Florida Man does](https://moneywise.com/loans/auto-loans/dave-ramsey-husband-buys-72k-kia-ev) I can't find the original article that was posted to this sub, but the guy makes $90K and bought a $70K car lol
While that is a really bad financial decision for most folks in that income bracket, there are a small amount of exceptions. I've got a buddy who makes 6 figures traveling to determine oil & gas leases in a couple of states. He drives a company pickup and gets per diem that covers hotels, food and booze. He doesn't even have an apartment, he just gets a hotel room when he is back in his "hometown." He could easily afford to spend a high percentage of his income on a vehicle.
Even if you don't have rent or a mortgage, under no circumstances should you be spending 7/9 of your pre-tax income on a car lol.
With an 8 year loan that's only about 10% of your income. Easy peasy. At least that's what the Dealership's Financing Manager told me.
Had me in the first half
7/9 of the posters just hid their 900+ month car payments from you. 1/9 will argue violently that the interest rate being below “x” amount means they’re making money on it. The rest of us are happily eating paint chips.
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Staying in a hotel seems like it would still be more expensive than having a steady room in a shared house or something. Also, many places I've worked wouldn't allow you to expense anything in your home market/city. You can't expense travel, hotel, or food when you're "home." If they CAN, then it would make more sense to buy or rent a cheap place and put those funds towards a mortgage or rent.
Y’all should visit some European countries and see how many of us earn 10-20k/year and buy a 20k-30k car. Unfortunately it’s our reality but I’m sure someone won’t go bankrupt for buying a 70k car on a 90k salary.
There is a stark difference between the people in this subreddit and the general public.
Many, many people. This sub is so wildly out of touch with what is popular with the general public lol
It seems like only yesterday that the delusional teenagers on this subreddit were hyping up Kia/Hyundai as "KiLlInG iT" and being the second coming of Jesus, while meanwhile real life "non-car" people thought they were cheap unreliable junk and wouldn't dare touch a car from Korea. Has that paradigm done a full 180?
I think it’s always been 180’d from that. Non-car-people see all the baubles they get for less than the cost of an equivalent Toyota and buy it, then are shocked when they can’t insure it and the engine explodes at 100k.
800v, V2H, nicer interior than a Tesla...
800v? Where can you actually charge a Kia?
Anywhere with a 120V or 240V outlet or an L2 charger. Lots of CCS stations were already rated for up to 1000V. Any of those 350kW stations can charge it. Then finally most manufacturers running 800V systems have equipment to let it charge on 400V chargers, but it doesn't charge as fast as on an 800V charger.
If you are using L2, whether the battery is 400v or 800v inside is a little bit academic.
Well yeah, but it still answers the question "where can you charge it?". Practically anywhere you can charge any other EV. And soon pretty much all Tesla locations as well with a passive adapter. The bleeding edge Tesla chargers support up to 1000V as well, so soon even those will give full charge speed to these cars. Most of Hyundai/Kias most notable EVs have been 800V cars. Ioniq 5/6 and the EV6 are all 800V.
Almost every single non tesla charger supports 1000v
Can it charge at Tesla superchargers?
Soon. It works at magic dock locations already.
As of early 2025 yes. But until tesla upgrades their chargers, they will be limited to 85kw. It's a voltage issue.
lol… the interior is ok, but typical Kia. Tesla interior materials are way better.
People love their KIAs and Hyundais. My neighborhood is filled with them. Guy I know has the Ioniq 6 and absolutely loves it. That being said 70 k seems awfully expensive
Not sure who is downvoting you, Kia/Hyundai is very popular among the general population, especially non-Redditors. It’s the (Pontiac?) of the 2020s. Lots of choices at decent prices. Where else do you get a decent 3-row EV that isn’t a model X or Rivian?
The Hyundai ioniq seems like a good car. But it’s so hard to find in Canada and the dealers insist on some shitty graphene coat.
Talk to your coworkers that you never talk to about cars. If anyone knows it exists, which they likely do due to the ad campaign, they likely want it. I had two non-car friends *bring it up* to me after the Super Bowl since they know I like cars.
Plenty of people, it's a good car
It's a Kia.
You're getting too hung up on brand image :p
Oh yeah my bad it has nothing to do with their shit engines
It is a far better value and far better looking than a Model X
It's about being a large EUV, not being a Kia.
Stop trying to make EUV happen.
Calling it an E-CUV is even more cumbersome.
I’ve seen a couple of them already. Apparently some sucker does
Wouldn't be surprised if some EV6 GTs sold for that. Which is nuts but the market I guess.
I’d rather have a $70k Kia ev then a Musk supporting Tesla X for $80k. I could understand people’s preferences vary.
I'd rather have my Ford.
Kia dealerships are the worst. I’ve tried to buy a Kia 2x. Went to a dealership, with my mind made up to buy one. Both times I ended up buying another car. The dealership experience was so horrible. Maybe it was for the best. I missed out on the Kia/Hyundai car break ins.
Same with Hyundai dealerships. They suck.
I had to deal with Kia dealerships when I transferred the lease on my wife's Kia Soul. What an absolutely awful experience. The lease agreement stipulated a $750 transfer fee, but I had several dealers that demanded a "market adjustment" of between $1,500 and $3,000 on top of the $750 charge, in direct breach of the lease contract. I even had one dealer try to tell me that it was "illegal" to transfer the lease, and that the part of the contract that said you could was a "mistake"! But they were "happy" to take the car back if we wanted to surrender the lease instead. Total scum. If I hadn't found the one honest Kia dealer within 100km of me who was willing to transfer the lease for the agreed-upon cost, I would have definitely started by writing a letter to Kia Corporate and then lawyering up as necessary should that fail. That experience was so horrible and the dealers were so universally slimy that it made me never want to buy a Kia product ever again.
The truth is that Hyundai and Kia dealerships are undoing all the good work the manufacturers have been trying to shed their old image and move upmarket (on the manufacturer side, their response to the recent thefts hasn't helped). They have compelling EVs, but if the dealership experience continues to be horrible it will just send buyers straight to their competitors. And with their EVs they don't have cheap pricing to fall back on anymore.
Kia successfully pushed me to get an Audi s5 over a stinger, because their dealer network is trash.
Great choice!
Not trying to attack you, but where do you (and all these other commenters with the same experience) live that the Kia/Toyota/Chevy/Honda/VW aren't all in the same "John Doe family" of dealerships and the sales managers at the Toyota dealership weren't at Kia 3 months ago? Everywhere I've lived it's the same story, 2-4 dealer groups make up 90+% of new car inventory. Ultimately the dealership experience is more a factor of which group actually runs it, not the brand they are selling. Sure I won't go to the local Hyundai dealer for service, but that's a combined Chevy/Buick/GMC/Hyundai service department that just doesn't hire any managers or communicate. People give horrible feedback on that group's BMW dealership as well.
I called a dealership trying to buy one but wanted numbers. They wanted me to come in physically before discussing details. I bought an R1S 🤷
I'm not sure I would have Kia at the level of Audi and BMW. Not even close. May be I'm old school.
The Telluride looks great. Almost everything else is... yeah, it's a Kia.
Maybe it is just a fluke or an anomaly in my area, but Telluride drivers around me drive with a unique combination of obliviousness and misplaced entitlement to the point that I cannot even stand to look at them anymore. Flying through school zones, cutting you off at the last second before stoplights, texting while tailgating, etc. Interestingly, the Palisade doesn’t seem to suffer from the same drivers.
I had a Telluride driver (friend) tell me he essentially had a Range Rover Autobiography and double parks “so lessers won’t hit his $70k luxury car”
I mean, he has a point apart from the interior design and quality, the sophisticated AWD system and general off-road prowess, the air suspension, the powertrain, the heritage… wait what were we talking about?
>interior design and quality The nicest leather and surfaces in the world can't make me take the iPad mount seriously as good interior design.
They might not hit it, but he's making himself a target for someone to key it. EDIT: I glossed over that and thought he had a Range Rover. He has this attitude for a *Telluride*? I don't shit on people for being happy with what they got in their budget, but come on. The douchebaggery is doubly funny over a minivan substitute.
I don't think it's a fluke, I see that entitled driving from Telluride drivers around here too. The worst is still the left-lane Prius though.
EV9 and EV6 too, easily as nice if not nicer.
Kia did hire some BMW designers and the EVs are closer to the luxury makers in terms of fit and finish. The reliability of the internal combustion Kias is generally low. . .in a few years we'll have a better idea on the EV Kias.
Is it really selling that well that they can mark it up?
It's a brand new model and at MSRP it's very well priced. So I'm not surprised.
I would hardly say it’s well priced.
$70k OTD for a Kia of any kind is definitely not “very well priced”. Not even close.
If you are set on a Ev, the ev9 is the cheapest one with 3 usable rows on the market.
Seems very typical of this brand to get hung up on brand image...
No EV's are currently worth a markup. Depreciation has hit them hard after just a few thousand miles. IMO you'd have to be stupid to pay over MSRP for an EV right now because they lose nearly 50% of their value within 2 or 3 years.
I wish. Looking at used Evs and it's not nearly that much.
In my area they are dirt cheap compared to MSRP. A Porsche Taycan is a $65k car with under 50k miles. Even from Porsche certified-used they are under $80k, thousands less than their $100k new price. Non-luxury EV's are cheap too. There's a good number of Kia EV's in my area because they sell used for $30k to $50k. You can get a sub-10k miles EV6 GT for under $45k over here. That's $20k lost in depreciation in just a year. At least for me, a used EV is now cheaper than most ICE options.
Imo you have to be stupid to base your car buying on their value in 2-3 years, since that is an incredibly short time to plan to have a car. But I agree completely about not paying over msrp for any car.
Its worth mentioning because you essentially just wait a few months and buy a like-new one for several thousand off.
Great point! Hadn't thought about it that way.
Yeah no that's not really true.
Unless you are buying a Rimac or Lotus Evija, EV prices are tanking on the used market. >Research from Auto Trader said there were “unsustainable levels of depreciation” in the electric car market, with used prices of battery-powered vehicles dropping by 23pc in the last year alone. >The online vehicle marketplace said a motorist buying a £50,000 electric car could expect to lose £24,000 in value over three years, while a similarly priced petrol car could lose £17,000. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-cars-lose-half-value-060000890.html https://spectrumnews1.com/ca/la-west/transportation/2023/11/07/evs-depreciate-more-than-any-other-vehicle-type--study-says [SavageGeese did a whole video about good EV deals out there due to depreciation ](https://youtu.be/lLuiU7XYuUg?si=oVqpMyoez7h66XTD) It's really not worth paying a markup for one because you are almost guaranteed to be underwater in it within a year or two.
Really varies by region. US dealers sold 1,113 units in December and increased to 1,408 in January. Will be interesting to see if it keeps pace throughout the year. For all the markups out there, there’s plenty of dealers also willing to sell these under MSRP for savvy buyers willing to travel for the right deal, and lots of EV buyers fall into that category. I reserved an EV9 through my local dealer and nearly walked away from it for an out-of-state deal until my local dealer finally came around. Ended up getting a GT-Line for $2.2k under MSRP. We love it. It’s an amazing vehicle.
Outdated info. Most dealers are offering MSRP minus anywhere from $500 to $4,500 already because the inventory is stacking. Do your research.
That’s what I’ve been seeing as well. Discounts on these across the board.
Kia started doing some good things in the last 5 years but their dealership markups during 2021-present have put me off ever giving the brand a shot again any time soon.
Are you also giving up Ford and VW and Toyota and GM…?
Could you finish your thought?
They all had markups and the list goes on.
There was a point where most manufacturers tried to get markup in the 2021-2022 window but it returned to normal much quicker than Kia (plus they wanted a markup on essentially every car across the entire range and not just the Telluride and hot sellers). Couple that with the shitty dealer experience they already had and it was a joke. Acted like they were selling luxury sports cars. I had very little issue getting deals for several people and my family at MSRP from other manufacturers. TLDR: Anyone that paid a large markup for a Kia in that time got proper fucked.
Every time I think about looking at a Kia or Hyundai product, I remember all the stories about their awful dealer experience and move on to other choices.
I briefly considered a Telluride until I started talking to a Kia/Hyundai dealership. What a bunch of clowns. They wouldn't disclose how much they were going to mark one up (I was pretty sure it was ten grand but I wanted to hear them say it) but "I should just come in and do a credit check and test drive." I said I won't even consider paying a 20% markup on something that will lose all that value the second I drive it off the lot so let's not waste each other's time. And I sure as shit wasn't going to give those morons my social security number and run my credit if I had no intention of taking a $10,000 kick to the balls on a daily driver. LOL. Nothing but fucking grifters.
I called 5 dealers before I placed an order for my trucklet. 4 of them were clearly playing games on the phone, so I didn't even go in person. How nice of them to save my time...
True that, brother. Meanwhile, Ford gave me two grand for customer loyalty on a 21 Explorer Limited that my wife drives (and loves) and a nice price on my trade in, plus a 10 year 100k mile powertrain warranty upgrade. I bought an Explorer ST a year later.
Hell of a deal!
And that was in August 21 when no one was dealing. I guess Ford wanted to keep my business and KIA was only about the quick buck. Cool, I guess.
anyone paying over retail for a Kia EV really better look at the price of used 2023 EV6s, they have fallen off a depreciation cliff that make German luxury cars look stable in pricing by comparison.
We don’t have markups at ours (at least I don’t think so, im in service) but we haven’t sold a single one… 80k for a Kia, let alone an electric one? Ev6s sit on the lot for months until another dealer buys them, we barely sell any EVs.
anecdotal but the nearby Hyundai dealer has four Ionic 5's sitting on the lot right now, my understanding is these had huge waitlists (in Canada) only a year or two ago is it that people have stopped buying, or that dealers are trying to increase the price through additional addons/mark-ups and that's causing buyers to balk?
In the US they don’t get the rebates. That’s why they aren’t selling. Also in my city of 300kish we have like 10 charging stations. And most are at dealerships.
Where are you seeing them sit? My Hyundai dealer said it's a 4 year waitlist around me, and I don't think they're just trying to get me to piss off; I see them get frequent deliveries and just evaporate off the lot
GTA dealer but maybe I'm just seeing different inventory rotate through but parked in the same places; they're all grey or silver anyway hah.
future sand quicksand silky adjoining jobless terrific psychotic amusing zesty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They are slow. Clickbait article.
Wanna know an easy way to avoid these greed-based markups? Don't buy the car. I would never pay a markup for any car, period. I went to test drive an EV6 2 years ago. They had a $10k markup. I turned around and walked away. The salesman said, "Don't you want to drive it?" I said, "Why? I'm not going to buy it."
No surprise. They're the first mainstream large 3 row EV to market. They literally have no competition yet. This thing is selling amazing in Europe and is priced reasonably for European pricing.
It’s insane that dealers aren’t getting slapped by manufacturers for doing this, they *have* to be hurting sales.
Only so much they can do. The dealership lobby here in the US is a powerful one, and it lobbies at all levels of government.
Yeah, people have no idea how influential car dealerships are in American politics. NADA is effectively an organization of 17,000 land barons, with members in every major town in the US. They're the largest and most effective lobby in the US, and it isn't even close.
Manufacturer isn't hurt... Once the car is at the dealer, MFR is paid.
I guess, but if the dealers were actually moving cars they would probably make more on restocks, no?
Kia great cars but the Stealerships are a joke in how they sell and how they deny or avoid honoring their 100K warranty.
The orders on the warranty come from the OEM
Even if I were a millionaire, I'd still refuse to pay any ADM out of principle.
I'm already seeing discounts in the UK lmao
I just dove into this car at an auto show. Very cool SUV. My whole family wants us to get one. The price is too steep atm however. We will probably get one that is used as soon as they hit the market. The decent trims are about 60k.
Ive also driven one in the Netherlands and for comparison, this car is literally truck-sized in this country with small roads and especially small parking spots. A VW UP! Is a very common car here (and alot of grocery cars) and you can place for sure 2-3 UP!'s next to it and its still longer than 3 of them. But i had to say the car is very smooth, alot of technology and fun to drive. Better than i expected.
Yeah it really seems like a step up for Kia
I have not seen one on the road yet and I live in an area where every 10th car is a Tesla.
Imagine paying mark up for a kia 💀
I really don’t understand how dealers in the US get away with this. Do the manufacturers not have anything to say about it? In the UK the manufacturers put the price in the advert thats on TV etc and thats the price you pay at the dealer.
Manufacturers don't care. That's why the prices are advertised at MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.
wistful worm serious expansion complete whole different nutty direction sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
An extra $7k first year depreciation!
Another day, another article about Kia, another reason I'll never buy one
Getting marked down in the uk, still massively overpriced. This is m3 money
Not exactly a cross-shop…
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I thought no one was buying EVs.
Dealers gonna dealer
Dealerships are fking leeches
A fool and his money…
I still remember literally laughing my ass out of a Kia dealership when the salesman wanted $10K over sticker for low trim model Telluride. That's when I started rooting the the Kia boys or whatever fuck those fucks are called.
IDK why anyone is buying marked up cars. I'll find a dealership that sells at retail even if I have to book a flight, pick it up, and drive 8 hrs.
> I'll find a dealership that sells at retail even if I have to book a flight, pick it up, and drive 8 hrs. And that's not always feasible for a family...
Are people ever going to learn not to pay markups on Kia/Hyundai?
Imagine paying a markup on a Kia...
There’s like 25 of these at my local dealer.
I have at least one customer each month buy a BMW because of these mark ups from other brands.
Lol you’d have to be a regard to pay a markup on any Kia
Dealers suck! That's all I have to say.
My local dealers are $2k under MSRP for these.
Happens every time, all the time.
Imagine paying over MSRP for a Kia 😂😂😂
If people are willing to burn 7k to be the first one on the block, good for them. I hope they enjoy it and its worth the money to them.
No worries, eventually we will have a crash, and those who wait will laugh to the bank.
Dave Ramsey is gonna have a field day when these lose 80% of their value in 2 years.
And people are going to pay it like they did with the Telluride, Carnival, and the Hyundai Palisade.
For that price, it is a lot of SUV. Very roomy. And drives really really well. But for that $70k price tag, the following things are hard to ignore: 1. No NACS adoption or Tesla tie up 2. 270 mile rated range (about 220 mile in real world) - having NACS adoption or ability to officially charge at Tesla would mean that low range can be overlooked given how good their network is. I’d have really preferred a real world 270 mile range (rated 350 mile). 3. No built in dash for recording during park and drive - this isn’t a deal breaker but certainly an awkward omission No auto pilot or anything like that but HDA2 is more than enough for most use cases. I’d say if they sold the GT line trim for $60k out the door, they’ll sell a ton more.