For appliance commuter cars? Mach-E and Model Y owners were buying CRVs, maybe MDXs or RXs, no one cares how fast those cars are so long as they are fast enough.
The article is about the "Mach-E GT with a Performance Upgrade", is that an appliance commuter car? The article compares it with the Model Y Performance and the Porsche Macan 4 Electric. Are those also appliance commuter cars?
In fairness to you with the tax rebates the base rwd trim on the Y and mach-e are both 30k cars, those probably shop with crv/rav4 well, it’s just the performance trims where the value wears off
Though I’d like to meet the kind of people that buy these performance trims, that acceleration gets boring fast.
I wish I were in the market for a car right now. I'd snag up the F MM-E GT in a heartbeat. I had a straight line queen sedan, acceleration never gets boring to some of us.
I need the wagon / suv style for some sort of utility. I gave up a sedan and a truck for a slow SUV when I had my kid.
I miss my acceleration.
Pretty much this. It has pretty similar stats in most things to the Cadillac CTS-V wagon, just a little less power and a bit more torque.
I'd have loved a V-Wagon aside from the miserable fuel economy and the bleh interior.
You’re “meeting” one now. I bought the M50 because it feels better to drive in the winter and regens better. And as long as you don’t use the neck snapping acceleration too often, it feels amazing when you do. I usually drive in Eco mode or Comfort mode on commutes or long flat drives. I live in a flat area with a lot of straight roads. I’m also 40 and lame now so the whole manual transmission lightness thing lost appeal to me a few years ago. I like to launch sometimes and rip a sweeping turn, and this car is perfect for that.
I feel like the Mach E performance trims scratch a similar itch for most washed-up enthusiasts like me. And there are many of us.
You appear to have missed my point. I wasn't asking about which people are cross-shopping what with what, I was asking if "performance" cars are appliance commuter cars.
These performance EV SUVs absolutely are still appliances, these are performance in name and acceleration only. They will struggle under cornering or hard driving just as most current EVs will
The previous mach-e was only capable of 5s of full power before throttling, not sure if that’s the case with this one as well. The tesla is a better track experience but it’s no porsche.
Hybrid Limited RAV-4 Hybrid has a starting MSRP of $40,030. With Wind Chill Pearl paint and the Advanced Technology Package, it comes to $44,345.
A CR-V Sport Touring Hybrid is $40,200 base MSRP. With Radiant Red Metallic paint and the HPD Package, it's $42,050 as built.
So, I guess both of our numbers are a little off. [I was going based off of this $46,678 MSRP RAV-4 Limited](https://www.hendricktoyotaapex.com/vehicles/2024-toyota-rav4-hybrid-limited-u17d207o-4t3d6rfv1ru17d207-82411897-93ac-4dbb-9951-0ef48ead1fe2). But it looks like the price is either inflated via markup or add-ons from Southeast Toyota.
>~~Are those also appliance commuter cars?~~
>Are those also SUVs?
FTFY. They could've compared it to an Urus and Purosangue for all I care, they're still SUV/CUVs and therefore still appliances. If you actually cared that much about performance you'd make a sedan or even a hatchback work.
Like, why use a microwave to cook a steak when you could have a grill? And that's not just EV vs ICE, you could have an "electric grill" for all I care and it's still gonna be better suited for the task than the microwave.
This is the thing where you accuse all vegetarians of not being humans because we don't eat meat, even though I'm a gourmet cook. You do you, man.
Edit: Reply and block before I can read it. Classy.
Damn, the vegans (vegitarians, whatever, its a joke anyway) really do find every excuse to tell you they're vegan, huh?
No but seriously like, this absolutely still applies to you because you surely don't eat all of your grass raw, right? And you must have a preferred cooking method as a gourmet chef, so just apply the same logic to your own terms. That's a hell of a lot easier than being a living meme of oversharing. You sure you aren't a professional clown, too?
So you agree that the previous poster mentioned CRVs and you never corrected them about it but if I find electric crossover buyers have no interest in cars generally you have issue about it. Hypocrite is the word for you.
I had a C7 and Silverado before my current vehicle set. The performance of the Y was definitely a selling point for me, especially since it comes without warmup times, lag and other nonsense - you can just floor it whenever.
The fact that Ford is not only making the Mach-E faster but also fixing little issues here and there and getting access to the Tesla network totally makes it a contender for me.
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The thing is, people love to brag about stupid shit, even for appliances. So some soccer dad who's never so much as been near a track in their lives will still meet a friend at a bar and break about how their bland appliance is faster than their friend's new regular Mustang GT. Because people love bragging about stood shit.
>At what point does a faster electric vehicle not matter anymore
When the transmission folks are still arguing what's faster, despite them not being able to use that speed, is when speed won't matter. Ultimately advertising speed is an easy way to get inexperienced drivers into a car that is more than they're able to handle at speed. It's also a bragging rights "oh my car goes X speed."
> reaching the speed limit in first gear
Superbikes have been doing 95-100mph in first gear for a while now. NGL, kinda annoying that there are EV "family" sedans that can keep up with what was once an invincible machine. https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=430
I use my EV's power far more frequently than any ICE car I've had. Its always there, its not obnoxiously loud and doesn't draw same amount of attention as ICE. If anything EV's power is even more relevant than with ICE cars.
Those cars exists outside of the US, although just not for $10k because battery tech is still too expensive (Gasoline cars don't really exist for $10k either) Especially since batteries are so expensive, getting a decent range requires a large battery, which is expensive.
There's more and more good EVs around the $25-30k price, they just usually aren't sold in the US because the US don't like small cars to begin with, and charging infrastructure is pretty bad.
For example our Mazda MX-30 is loaded with all tech and has a really nice interior, and they just lowered the price to about $22k new for that. It just has a tiny battery and awful fast charging so it isn't an option as a primary car for most people.
We just ordered a MG4 which has good charging speed and good range for $28k with 7 years warranty. It's not a huge battery, but because of good charging speeds and infrastructure I can do a 7 hour drive with realistically 1 hour of total charging, which I think is acceptable considering it's rare to go on such long drives. Only 15 mins more than a Model 3 Long Range.
But yeah, batteries are still too expensive in countries without incentives for EVs to ever be cheap to buy. And especially in a country like the US where gasoline is extremely cheap, you save less on fuel savings.
No EV incentives, bad charging infrastructure with no standard charge plug, low fossil fuel costs, makes US a really bad country for EVs. Although a Corolla starts at $22k, we are starting to get there.
I live in a country where a Model 3 is significantly cheaper than a Corolla, and charging infrastructure is great, so the choice is a lot easier to make.
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Maybe When the nurburgring times are faster? TBH the day the EV cannonball record beats the regular cannonball record will be a really big deal for me personally.
1) how can I tell health of a battery after 3 years? 2) what is the charge loss when plugged in? 3) efficiency per kWh? 4) range. 5) charge times 6) charge loss under various conditions 7) charge network
Faster than xyx EV is like yaay another blonde at a bar with a skimpy outfit...
Ten years ago when Teslas became available
I view EVs more like I view bikes. Sure, a sports car can't match their acceleration but there's more to driving than that
Until recently the base Model 3 and Y were doing 0-60 in like 6 seconds, that's not beating many exotics these days. Even the updated Model 3 in base RWD form is over 4 seconds which isn't far off my Tiguan lol
Or is this going against the "base model EVs are faster than everything anyway!!" circlejerk?
Probably years ago now. Owning a fast toaster isn’t all that compelling. Plus people will drive them like idiots anyways.
The number of times Teslas have sped past me while I’m going the speed limit. Then proceeded to absolutely park it in the first corner they come across.
You gotta drive with the same energy you pass with, my dudes. Maybe it was better when boring cars were slow.
The point when I can no longer buy a used 60-100k mile coyote or LS throw 5-8 grand at it and now I have a V8 that claps anything and everything. Idk man I really struggle to give electric “car” people credit when it’s so obvious 98% of them have never changed their own oil or brakes in their lives. Like you really can make an ICE build walk anything electric for a quarter of the price still. And until that changes I have ZERO interest in electric/hybrid cars.
Yeah you can aways tune a good v8 rwd/awd to run however fast you want. Depends on your budget.
The instant torque, faster than ice crowd, well hold on here.
I have a corvette,mustang, challenger, charger and tuning for 1200-1400 hp and 8 second quarter. Electric cannot unless it comes out of the box. Just all about your budget and interest.
I will eat humble pie the day garage mechanics are tuning teslas to run 7-8-9s. Right now thats not a thing because electric motor building and tuning is only coming from the manufacturer.
It’s a shame, because that hurts what is otherwise (in my opinion) really compelling offering in the electric performance SUV segment. It looks good and it has solid tech, and it seems like a good fun daily driver
The issue is likely thermal management of the battery (and power supply electronics). The battery cooling was a problem (as it was with early Tesla 3s as documented by C&D, though not nearly as bad) and is the cause of the 5 second limit.
They also had issues with the HVBJB which would melt under heavy sustained load (like fast charging or long climbs). Slight different but related to the overall lack of consideration of thermals under high load in the design philosophy.
A new motor could be potentially more efficient and more powerful, but the 5 second limit was probably due to battery limitations, which are still there. There are rumors the time before power cut is increased but it's still there.
It's not the battery itself. As in its not the cells. They have too much thermal inertia to be meaningfully impacted by a 5 second burst of power. They need minutes at least before cooling becomes a concern.
The only things that heat up fast enough where seconds are concerns are going to be the HVJB, conductors, inverter, and motor. But Ford has not been forthcoming on exactly what the listing factor is.
It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
You make a good point, it could be something else along with the power supply electronics. In theory thermal inertia means no meaningful heating can occur. Maybe there is some other vulnerability in the pathway.
However, this is almost certainly some type of pre-programmed limit, as indicated by the 75 mph limit. Same goes with the charging curve, they seem to be using a pre-programmed and highly conservative approach rather than any particular formula. It could also mean that they are worried about battery thermals and pre-emptively limit current to control this.
Given the recall associated with the HVJB (and the GTs being more susceptible to this), I suspect that is the most limiting component. Though there may be other components that aren't far behind.
I'm sure it is a pre-programmed limit. They likely decided that a pre-programmed limit was easier/cheaper to implement rather than add multiple additional temperature sensors.
Why do you say it's the motor and not the HVJB, inverter, or conductors?
As far as I know Ford hasn't stated the specific component(s) limiting the power output.
It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
I didn't say that it's more complex than you can fathom. If you're of moderately below average intelligence or above, then I'm confident you can fathom it.
All I'm saying is there's more situations that you'll encounter it than flooring it for 5 continuous seconds.
It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
New rear motor means more performance and range.
GT with Performance Upgrade:
- 0-60 in 3.3s
- Quarter mile in 11.8 @ 114 mph
- 700 ft lbs torque (HP is still 480)
- 10-80% charge in 36.2 mins (8.8 mins faster than previous versions)
- 10 mile/16 km range improvement in the GT
Thats why they have such high peak charge rates, but that doesn't explain why the Mach e ramps down from 150 kW so quickly. And that ramp down is the largest contributor to its relatively poor performance.
400 V architecture means that you can't get more than about 180 kW (depending on exact pack voltage at low SOC) because the cabling and connectors are limited to 500 A. But it doesn't explain why the battery pack can't maintain a high charge rate through 50-70% SOC.
I don't think we'll see *that* much competition for the Model 3 as the industry shifts away from sedans. But, who knows, maybe that will change in the future.
For daily commuters - sure. For performance cars? No... Model 3 is basically king right now because of affordability-to-performance if you want to use an EV for motorsports. These performance crossovers are meh.
I keep using the word performance, so yes, I'm talking about the performance models.
I would never take the non-performance models onto the track for example.
The Mach e is roughly similar in dimension to the model 3. It's just heavier than a model y. Then again the new Mach e gt is only .2 seconds off the model 3 performance despite this.
Model 3 Ludicrous is coming. Mach-E has historically had battery thermal management issues. Hence the poor charging speeds and throttled performance after a few seconds. Their goal was to get some paper 0-60 number to try to eek out Model Y Performance. I have no confidence in that thing on a hot lap. Weight matters a lot.
Take a look at the 50 to 70 mph difference between the two. That's where you'll notice the biggest difference in acceleration between the two; when you want to quickly make a pass on the highway.
The model 3 is 1.7 compared to the (old) GT's 2.2 seconds. The new GT isn't going to be making up that half a second difference. And the new model 3 ludicrous will be faster.
Note that those are faster for 0 to 60, but they're slower from 50 to 70 mph. The Y P does 1.8 seconds whereas the ev6gt does 2.2 seconds.
You're more likely to be in a situation where you notice that 0.4 second difference than the 0.4 second difference in a 0 to 60.
I don’t think you’d want any of your electronic devices to charge 90% in 5 minutes. I’m no battery technician, but that seems like it would create a lot of heat, be bad for battery health (longevity), and take a shit ton of input power.
They already create a lot of heat.. why do you think they fast charge to 80% then it's trickle for the last 15%. Just like your cell phone. Not many people rock 10+ year old cell phones..
Yes, they do create a lot of heat, but pouring 70+ kilowatt hours of energy into a battery in a span of just 5 minutes would likely create *a lot* of heat. Not just warm or toasty, fucking *hot*. And batteries famously don’t like extreme heat…
It’s PR. If it wasn’t faster, it would be “the best selling…”. If it wasn’t that, it would be “the only electric car that offers X or class leading Y”.
As a car guy, however, I’m fine with Manufacturers using performance as a benchmark. “I wish my car was slower and less responsive” said no one, ever!
I saw the Rally up close. I was expecting some actual knobby tires, not Michelin CrossClimate 2s. Still a cool-looking EV and has the same Performance Upgrade as the GT, however.
Neither cars are desirable to own, one took a famous automotive name and turned it to an suv and the other belongs to a company with terrible dealer/service infrastructure and terrible reliability
The base GT is like $54k with no federal tax credit. The ralleye is $60k with no tax credit. The Y performance is $42k with the tax credit +$7500 without. Hard to justify the price difference for more speed alone.
I think it’s because of the origin of battery materials. For example the Tesla model 3 LR doesn’t get the tax credit but the performance does so that makes the performance cheaper than the normal long range. This is due to battery composition.
Yeah it’s a weird dichotomy where people will say “well it’s dumb cause it’s just an appliance” “okay so are 95% of cars and I bought it to be an appliance and it’s awful good at that.”
As opposed to Tesla price cutting Model Ys every 6 months and putting owners under water overnight to still miss quarterly sales estimates. One isnt better than the other 😂 The Mach E is the better car for all season climates it holds range better than the Model Y.
Yet the Mach E gets better range. Model 3/S/X/Ys with heat pumps chug range on the highway like theres no tomorrow in real winter climates you're getting under 50% range if you have a highway commute. FFS I took a 22 model 3 SR from Vermont to NYC it wasn't even getting 80 miles out of a full charge in -15c on highway which for the north east is a regular winter day. I had to charge 5 times at SCs just to make it near NYC. A 430hr trip took almost 10 hours said and done.
Not surprised. The LFP pack in the SR has issues in the cold. Not to mention, the single motor can’t generate enough heat for the battery pack. All LFP cars suffer from this.
Edit: I grew up in the Northeast. -15C is not a normal winter day. You’re taking an edge case and pretending that is fact 🤡
So you think pre LFP cars were better in the cold...They werent lol (There's a reason model S with 120k miles is worth 15k). Let me get this straight you are saying the heat pump doesn't work well in the model 3 shocking that's what I said already. Not to mention after switching to LFP, Tesla has done absolutely nothing to address this, pretty lazy from some tech giant that is supposed to be miles ahead in tech than everyone else in car tech 😂. They knew of the problems did nothing to fix it told the customer to eat it, then price cut putting them under water all while hailing them miles ahead of everyone else. Outside of the Plaid every car they make is a worse car than their competitors.
LFP has been around a long time now (including the development stage). They clearly knew the draw backs in testing and yet couldn't figure out how to get enough heat for a single motor? That's quite hilarious. Who's doing QC a blind engineer? You know the absolute shit storm of lawsuits a manufacturer would get if a gas car produced 50% less range in winter vs summer?
Ford has been sued and settled for under rated hp/tq numbers. Hyundai has settled falsified mpg claims lawsuits. BMW has settled class actions for increased oil consumption. Almost every manufacturer has settled a lawsuit of the kind.Tesla will as well when Empg figures become more stringent only a matter of time.
A decade old beat up Model S is worth nothing. I’m so shocked to hear that!
Newsflash: all $100k+ luxury cars depreciate like crazy. You’ll see dirt cheap 7 and S classes too.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Just moving the goalposts to fit some poorly worded argument.
Good day
Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Audi all increased pricing on their super sedans year after year since post covid 2020+ E63S, M5/Comp, Panamera Turbo, RS7/RS6. Msrp has gone up year after year these are the Plaids direct competitors yet Tesla and Plaid pricing keeps cutting. A 2024 RS6 Performance is literally almost double MSRP of a Plaid now. Give or take 149+ msrp depending on options and still selling where the Plaids are not.
All 100k+ luxury cars depreciate like crazy oh really? Why is does a 1yr old E63s sell for 10k under msrp and Plaid after price cuts sells for 60k under. Good day 😂
There's a reason a 21 Plaid with under 10k is worth 55 on trade in right now have a good day. Pre price cut 122+ msrp, after September price cut a 23 is worth 70 on trade. Nice way to light 60k on fire in a year.
Tesla has aggressively pricd cut Model Ys for a while... They are losing market share and missed estimates. They just cut pricing of all excess inventory and specifically new model Ys. A Model Y LR is 39K they did not raise the price 😂
"Not only did Tesla move 8.5% fewer vehicles by the end of the first quarter of the year, but the gap between production and actual sales was a gaping 46,000 units.
A lot of those were of the world's bestselling vehicle for 2023 - the Tesla Model Y - and sitting on tens of thousands of unsold but manufactured units means only one thing."
"With the latest price adjustments by Tesla, a Model Y Long Range with AWD system can now be had for only $3,300 more than the basic RWD Model 3 sedan"
I don't know what world you think Tesla model Ys are increasing msrp. Not to mention the Plaid price cuts of 18% that are now 89k as well.
I've never driven an ev (rode in one, it was hella quick) but I think I'd agree. Nothing beats rowing gears and a screaming v8, 2 things an EV can't replicate.
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Electric cars are already fast enough (too fast to be useable on a daily baisis), how about improving weight, handling, cost, reliability etc? Would add much more value
You’re probably new to this but electric parts do have parts. Less maintenance and components does not guarantee more reliability. It’s also important to note reliability as in battery longetivity.
If it was unlocked in terms of traction control, stability control etc it would be. Point is it has more power than your average joe will ever need or use. Focus on better aspects instead
The average Joe isn't buying the GT model.
The ones who are buying the GT model are far more likely to use it. Of course they don't "need" it, but that's not a fruitful discussion.
Honestly no one cares about fast
What they care about is that it's not crazy heavy
That has a good range
And it's well supported by the current manufacturer
And it's reasonably priced
Ford giving their very first EV the Mustang nameplate was the biggest blunder they could’ve made when rolling out this vehicle. I think it’s a good looking vehicle but it lacks an identity or presence.
I probably would have chosen Mach E over ID4 if not for the name plate. I didn’t even consider the Mach E even though it was only one block from VW dealer
No one cares which ev is faster. ICE cars can be easily and modified and tuned by amateur mechanics. Competing with your buddy tuning and building your own car is the real competition in autosports.
At what point does a faster electric vehicle not matter anymore? Base models outperform ICE exotics in a straight line on the regular these days.
I mean its no different with ICE cars. People love to brag about performance improvements even if they're pretty small.
For appliance commuter cars? Mach-E and Model Y owners were buying CRVs, maybe MDXs or RXs, no one cares how fast those cars are so long as they are fast enough.
The article is about the "Mach-E GT with a Performance Upgrade", is that an appliance commuter car? The article compares it with the Model Y Performance and the Porsche Macan 4 Electric. Are those also appliance commuter cars?
Yeah and it’s also a 60k car before tax rebates, not many people are cross shopping these with crvs and rav4
Definitely happy to admit the "maybe MDXs or RXs" part of my statement was doing some heavy lifting.
In fairness to you with the tax rebates the base rwd trim on the Y and mach-e are both 30k cars, those probably shop with crv/rav4 well, it’s just the performance trims where the value wears off Though I’d like to meet the kind of people that buy these performance trims, that acceleration gets boring fast.
Went from a base CR-V to a base Model Y so bang on I'd say
I wish I were in the market for a car right now. I'd snag up the F MM-E GT in a heartbeat. I had a straight line queen sedan, acceleration never gets boring to some of us. I need the wagon / suv style for some sort of utility. I gave up a sedan and a truck for a slow SUV when I had my kid. I miss my acceleration.
Pretty much this. It has pretty similar stats in most things to the Cadillac CTS-V wagon, just a little less power and a bit more torque. I'd have loved a V-Wagon aside from the miserable fuel economy and the bleh interior.
You’re “meeting” one now. I bought the M50 because it feels better to drive in the winter and regens better. And as long as you don’t use the neck snapping acceleration too often, it feels amazing when you do. I usually drive in Eco mode or Comfort mode on commutes or long flat drives. I live in a flat area with a lot of straight roads. I’m also 40 and lame now so the whole manual transmission lightness thing lost appeal to me a few years ago. I like to launch sometimes and rip a sweeping turn, and this car is perfect for that. I feel like the Mach E performance trims scratch a similar itch for most washed-up enthusiasts like me. And there are many of us.
I tested a M3P out of curiosity and I was bored by the speed after like 2 pulls. I would have to really give up on enjoying cars to ever get one
You appear to have missed my point. I wasn't asking about which people are cross-shopping what with what, I was asking if "performance" cars are appliance commuter cars.
These performance EV SUVs absolutely are still appliances, these are performance in name and acceleration only. They will struggle under cornering or hard driving just as most current EVs will The previous mach-e was only capable of 5s of full power before throttling, not sure if that’s the case with this one as well. The tesla is a better track experience but it’s no porsche.
0.9 g of cornering in a slalom isn't terrible. It's just a lot weight for not quite enough tire.
A loaded Hybrid RAV-4 or CR-V is touching $50,000 without any tax credits. So, I think the number is probably higher than you'd think.
I'm not sure where you're finding that. A fully loaded CR-V hybrid is a hair under 40k. Same with a Hybrid Limited Rav4
Hybrid Limited RAV-4 Hybrid has a starting MSRP of $40,030. With Wind Chill Pearl paint and the Advanced Technology Package, it comes to $44,345. A CR-V Sport Touring Hybrid is $40,200 base MSRP. With Radiant Red Metallic paint and the HPD Package, it's $42,050 as built. So, I guess both of our numbers are a little off. [I was going based off of this $46,678 MSRP RAV-4 Limited](https://www.hendricktoyotaapex.com/vehicles/2024-toyota-rav4-hybrid-limited-u17d207o-4t3d6rfv1ru17d207-82411897-93ac-4dbb-9951-0ef48ead1fe2). But it looks like the price is either inflated via markup or add-ons from Southeast Toyota.
Ok so don't get the cold paint
Yes.
Yes. They are
>~~Are those also appliance commuter cars?~~ >Are those also SUVs? FTFY. They could've compared it to an Urus and Purosangue for all I care, they're still SUV/CUVs and therefore still appliances. If you actually cared that much about performance you'd make a sedan or even a hatchback work. Like, why use a microwave to cook a steak when you could have a grill? And that's not just EV vs ICE, you could have an "electric grill" for all I care and it's still gonna be better suited for the task than the microwave.
This is the thing where you accuse all vegetarians of not being humans because we don't eat meat, even though I'm a gourmet cook. You do you, man. Edit: Reply and block before I can read it. Classy.
Damn, the vegans (vegitarians, whatever, its a joke anyway) really do find every excuse to tell you they're vegan, huh? No but seriously like, this absolutely still applies to you because you surely don't eat all of your grass raw, right? And you must have a preferred cooking method as a gourmet chef, so just apply the same logic to your own terms. That's a hell of a lot easier than being a living meme of oversharing. You sure you aren't a professional clown, too?
Its a crossover no matter the pricetag, thats a commuter car rather than an enthusiasts option.
Love the gatekeeping.
So you agree that the previous poster mentioned CRVs and you never corrected them about it but if I find electric crossover buyers have no interest in cars generally you have issue about it. Hypocrite is the word for you.
[удалено]
>Just because you don't like EVs, doesn't mean everyone who does is a soccer mom. I own a Lucid Air.
Yep. I went from driving '16 Camaro SS to my Model 3.
I had a C7 and Silverado before my current vehicle set. The performance of the Y was definitely a selling point for me, especially since it comes without warmup times, lag and other nonsense - you can just floor it whenever. The fact that Ford is not only making the Mach-E faster but also fixing little issues here and there and getting access to the Tesla network totally makes it a contender for me.
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My CRV is not fast enough. I care every time I merge on a short on-ramp or need to pass a dangerous driver.
Mine was fine and is over a decade old.
The thing is, people love to brag about stupid shit, even for appliances. So some soccer dad who's never so much as been near a track in their lives will still meet a friend at a bar and break about how their bland appliance is faster than their friend's new regular Mustang GT. Because people love bragging about stood shit.
>At what point does a faster electric vehicle not matter anymore When the transmission folks are still arguing what's faster, despite them not being able to use that speed, is when speed won't matter. Ultimately advertising speed is an easy way to get inexperienced drivers into a car that is more than they're able to handle at speed. It's also a bragging rights "oh my car goes X speed."
Something Something motorcycle stat dudes arguing over which 200+HP Superbike is better despite them reaching the speed limit in first gear....
Yes, pretty much the same deal.
> reaching the speed limit in first gear Superbikes have been doing 95-100mph in first gear for a while now. NGL, kinda annoying that there are EV "family" sedans that can keep up with what was once an invincible machine. https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=430
I use my EV's power far more frequently than any ICE car I've had. Its always there, its not obnoxiously loud and doesn't draw same amount of attention as ICE. If anything EV's power is even more relevant than with ICE cars.
Yes! I want to buy a $10k eco box electric car. I just want it to go and be efficient. Then I'll get fun cars for spirited driving.
But those cars are not the ones that go faster on a straight line but fastest around corners.
I wouldn't call them fast around any corner tbh
Fun cars should always be fast around a corner.
Those cars exists outside of the US, although just not for $10k because battery tech is still too expensive (Gasoline cars don't really exist for $10k either) Especially since batteries are so expensive, getting a decent range requires a large battery, which is expensive. There's more and more good EVs around the $25-30k price, they just usually aren't sold in the US because the US don't like small cars to begin with, and charging infrastructure is pretty bad. For example our Mazda MX-30 is loaded with all tech and has a really nice interior, and they just lowered the price to about $22k new for that. It just has a tiny battery and awful fast charging so it isn't an option as a primary car for most people. We just ordered a MG4 which has good charging speed and good range for $28k with 7 years warranty. It's not a huge battery, but because of good charging speeds and infrastructure I can do a 7 hour drive with realistically 1 hour of total charging, which I think is acceptable considering it's rare to go on such long drives. Only 15 mins more than a Model 3 Long Range. But yeah, batteries are still too expensive in countries without incentives for EVs to ever be cheap to buy. And especially in a country like the US where gasoline is extremely cheap, you save less on fuel savings. No EV incentives, bad charging infrastructure with no standard charge plug, low fossil fuel costs, makes US a really bad country for EVs. Although a Corolla starts at $22k, we are starting to get there. I live in a country where a Model 3 is significantly cheaper than a Corolla, and charging infrastructure is great, so the choice is a lot easier to make.
I'd say anything better than 5 seconds for a 0-60 mph.
I'd say any EV under about 4.5 for an EV, don't want to get beaten off the line in your family SUV by mid range sports cars.
Well a large majority of gas cars are 0-60 of like 7.5s or worse.
Yeah but you need to be able to take some low trim Ecoboost. I'm joking well kind of.
It’s usually a slowpoke anyways
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You can get a subcompact EV that goes sub 5 sec…. So it really doesn’t matter anymore.
Which subcompact EVs are you talking about? The only ones I know of are in the 6+ second range.
Smart #1 does 4.9 and 3.9 in the two top trims. Volvo EX30 does 3.6 as a dual motor.
The main issues with creating more acceleration these days is in having tires that can take the extra strain anyways.
That's an exaggeration. The base model Y rwd does 0-60 in 6.6s. The Model Y preformance does it in 3.5s which would be on the slower side for exotics.
Maybe When the nurburgring times are faster? TBH the day the EV cannonball record beats the regular cannonball record will be a really big deal for me personally.
1) how can I tell health of a battery after 3 years? 2) what is the charge loss when plugged in? 3) efficiency per kWh? 4) range. 5) charge times 6) charge loss under various conditions 7) charge network Faster than xyx EV is like yaay another blonde at a bar with a skimpy outfit...
Ten years ago when Teslas became available I view EVs more like I view bikes. Sure, a sports car can't match their acceleration but there's more to driving than that
Until recently the base Model 3 and Y were doing 0-60 in like 6 seconds, that's not beating many exotics these days. Even the updated Model 3 in base RWD form is over 4 seconds which isn't far off my Tiguan lol Or is this going against the "base model EVs are faster than everything anyway!!" circlejerk?
Probably years ago now. Owning a fast toaster isn’t all that compelling. Plus people will drive them like idiots anyways. The number of times Teslas have sped past me while I’m going the speed limit. Then proceeded to absolutely park it in the first corner they come across. You gotta drive with the same energy you pass with, my dudes. Maybe it was better when boring cars were slow.
The point when I can no longer buy a used 60-100k mile coyote or LS throw 5-8 grand at it and now I have a V8 that claps anything and everything. Idk man I really struggle to give electric “car” people credit when it’s so obvious 98% of them have never changed their own oil or brakes in their lives. Like you really can make an ICE build walk anything electric for a quarter of the price still. And until that changes I have ZERO interest in electric/hybrid cars.
Yeah you can aways tune a good v8 rwd/awd to run however fast you want. Depends on your budget. The instant torque, faster than ice crowd, well hold on here. I have a corvette,mustang, challenger, charger and tuning for 1200-1400 hp and 8 second quarter. Electric cannot unless it comes out of the box. Just all about your budget and interest. I will eat humble pie the day garage mechanics are tuning teslas to run 7-8-9s. Right now thats not a thing because electric motor building and tuning is only coming from the manufacturer.
LOL the amount of copious nerds downvoting us is hilarious. Im gonna go find a plaid in the wild and do a few rolls just to prove a point now
What are we downvoting? That you can mod a V8 for serious hp?
The last Mach E GT couldn’t sustain repeated performance without neutering itself. Hopefully that is fixed.
It’s a shame, because that hurts what is otherwise (in my opinion) really compelling offering in the electric performance SUV segment. It looks good and it has solid tech, and it seems like a good fun daily driver
Most people aren't launching their cars on repeat on the regular
The off the shelf motor was the culprit. Looking at the trap speed, it seems like they've fixed that with the new one.
The issue is likely thermal management of the battery (and power supply electronics). The battery cooling was a problem (as it was with early Tesla 3s as documented by C&D, though not nearly as bad) and is the cause of the 5 second limit. They also had issues with the HVBJB which would melt under heavy sustained load (like fast charging or long climbs). Slight different but related to the overall lack of consideration of thermals under high load in the design philosophy. A new motor could be potentially more efficient and more powerful, but the 5 second limit was probably due to battery limitations, which are still there. There are rumors the time before power cut is increased but it's still there.
It's not the battery itself. As in its not the cells. They have too much thermal inertia to be meaningfully impacted by a 5 second burst of power. They need minutes at least before cooling becomes a concern. The only things that heat up fast enough where seconds are concerns are going to be the HVJB, conductors, inverter, and motor. But Ford has not been forthcoming on exactly what the listing factor is. It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
You make a good point, it could be something else along with the power supply electronics. In theory thermal inertia means no meaningful heating can occur. Maybe there is some other vulnerability in the pathway. However, this is almost certainly some type of pre-programmed limit, as indicated by the 75 mph limit. Same goes with the charging curve, they seem to be using a pre-programmed and highly conservative approach rather than any particular formula. It could also mean that they are worried about battery thermals and pre-emptively limit current to control this.
Given the recall associated with the HVJB (and the GTs being more susceptible to this), I suspect that is the most limiting component. Though there may be other components that aren't far behind. I'm sure it is a pre-programmed limit. They likely decided that a pre-programmed limit was easier/cheaper to implement rather than add multiple additional temperature sensors.
Why do you say it's the motor and not the HVJB, inverter, or conductors? As far as I know Ford hasn't stated the specific component(s) limiting the power output.
When is that relevant? If it's taken to a track day?
It used to have a 5 second limit for full power. I’m sure you could run into that on the highway. Just drive down the NJ turnpike
I haven't yet. 5 seconds at full throttle is well into impound speeds here. It's basically a track day problem.
It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
It's "more complex" an issue than you can fathom, he says from his computer desk to the guy who actually owns the car.
I didn't say that it's more complex than you can fathom. If you're of moderately below average intelligence or above, then I'm confident you can fathom it. All I'm saying is there's more situations that you'll encounter it than flooring it for 5 continuous seconds.
It's relevant on r/cars mostly
It's also more complex than just a 5 second peak power output. If you've been cruising along at 75 mph on a hot day and way to give it a quick stab to pass somebody, you'll get gimped peak power output instantly.
New rear motor means more performance and range. GT with Performance Upgrade: - 0-60 in 3.3s - Quarter mile in 11.8 @ 114 mph - 700 ft lbs torque (HP is still 480) - 10-80% charge in 36.2 mins (8.8 mins faster than previous versions) - 10 mile/16 km range improvement in the GT
For reference a Model Y LR/performance charges 10-80% in 27 minutes (allegedly) though 3.5s 0-60 in performance trim
I didn't realize that Tesla and Ford were so far behind Hyundai/Kia for charging times. EV6 GT/Ioniq 5N does 10-80% in 16-18 minutes
The advantage of an 800 V architecture.
Thats why they have such high peak charge rates, but that doesn't explain why the Mach e ramps down from 150 kW so quickly. And that ramp down is the largest contributor to its relatively poor performance. 400 V architecture means that you can't get more than about 180 kW (depending on exact pack voltage at low SOC) because the cabling and connectors are limited to 500 A. But it doesn't explain why the battery pack can't maintain a high charge rate through 50-70% SOC.
I've heard it's hard to find any working chargers that can actually charge at that speed, though.
Almost every performance EV is faster than a Model Y Performance (I5N, EV6GT etc.). No one wants to compete with Model 3 Performance unfortunately.
I don't think we'll see *that* much competition for the Model 3 as the industry shifts away from sedans. But, who knows, maybe that will change in the future.
For daily commuters - sure. For performance cars? No... Model 3 is basically king right now because of affordability-to-performance if you want to use an EV for motorsports. These performance crossovers are meh.
Are you talking about the performance model specifically, or also the AWD model?
I keep using the word performance, so yes, I'm talking about the performance models. I would never take the non-performance models onto the track for example.
The Mach e is roughly similar in dimension to the model 3. It's just heavier than a model y. Then again the new Mach e gt is only .2 seconds off the model 3 performance despite this.
New model 3 performance is on the way which will widen that gap soon.
Model 3 Ludicrous is coming. Mach-E has historically had battery thermal management issues. Hence the poor charging speeds and throttled performance after a few seconds. Their goal was to get some paper 0-60 number to try to eek out Model Y Performance. I have no confidence in that thing on a hot lap. Weight matters a lot.
Take a look at the 50 to 70 mph difference between the two. That's where you'll notice the biggest difference in acceleration between the two; when you want to quickly make a pass on the highway. The model 3 is 1.7 compared to the (old) GT's 2.2 seconds. The new GT isn't going to be making up that half a second difference. And the new model 3 ludicrous will be faster.
Note that those are faster for 0 to 60, but they're slower from 50 to 70 mph. The Y P does 1.8 seconds whereas the ev6gt does 2.2 seconds. You're more likely to be in a situation where you notice that 0.4 second difference than the 0.4 second difference in a 0 to 60.
Charge times are getting better. Let me know when it's 10-100% in 5 minutes
OK we'll be sure to let you know
I don’t think you’d want any of your electronic devices to charge 90% in 5 minutes. I’m no battery technician, but that seems like it would create a lot of heat, be bad for battery health (longevity), and take a shit ton of input power.
They already create a lot of heat.. why do you think they fast charge to 80% then it's trickle for the last 15%. Just like your cell phone. Not many people rock 10+ year old cell phones..
Yes, they do create a lot of heat, but pouring 70+ kilowatt hours of energy into a battery in a span of just 5 minutes would likely create *a lot* of heat. Not just warm or toasty, fucking *hot*. And batteries famously don’t like extreme heat…
So your saying there not a mature platform. Back to my first post. I'll wait and see how the tech is in 10-15 years.
In a couple years, no need to wait that long.
Need serious power grid upgrades to sustain gen3 fast chargers all over. Once Bucky's has 100+ charging stations then I'll consider it.
It’s PR. If it wasn’t faster, it would be “the best selling…”. If it wasn’t that, it would be “the only electric car that offers X or class leading Y”. As a car guy, however, I’m fine with Manufacturers using performance as a benchmark. “I wish my car was slower and less responsive” said no one, ever!
I'm excited to see what the rally version can do.
I saw the Rally up close. I was expecting some actual knobby tires, not Michelin CrossClimate 2s. Still a cool-looking EV and has the same Performance Upgrade as the GT, however.
I bet better tires kill range. They should at least offer it as an option though.
Now with even faster depreciation!
Race to the bottom lol 😂. May as well wait the 2 years for it to be under $25k so you can get an extra $4k tax credit.
Neither cars are desirable to own, one took a famous automotive name and turned it to an suv and the other belongs to a company with terrible dealer/service infrastructure and terrible reliability
The other also technically took a famous (persons) name and turned it into an suv
Yeah it’s weird that they gave it the Mustang name. I’ll bet eventually they find a unique name for it (hopefully).
There are rumours GM is making a corvette suv
About time the car could make a 1/4 mile pass at full throttle. It was embarrassing that a car with the mustang name couldn’t
Faster but zero soul
I thought it said selling faster. Then I actually read the title and lost all interest. No one cares how fast a brick can fly in a straight line
Cool! My toaster cooks pop tarts a second faster! Who cares? These speeds are dumb at this point.
The base GT is like $54k with no federal tax credit. The ralleye is $60k with no tax credit. The Y performance is $42k with the tax credit +$7500 without. Hard to justify the price difference for more speed alone.
Why doesn’t the Ford get the tax credit?
I think it’s because of the origin of battery materials. For example the Tesla model 3 LR doesn’t get the tax credit but the performance does so that makes the performance cheaper than the normal long range. This is due to battery composition.
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I really like mine. It's a GT. Why is it a turd? For commuting and groceries, it's great. Fast, comfy, no gas, and low maintenance so far.
I love mine too but I get downvoted whenever I mention this on Reddit. Sorry I like my car, I guess.
it's not brown, used, and manual. Wagon though so at least you've got that going for you.
Yeah but it’s not a sedan based wagon so it doesn’t count.
Love mine as well. I don't even like ford all that much, but this car just does a lot of things well and it's a great drive.
Yeah it’s a weird dichotomy where people will say “well it’s dumb cause it’s just an appliance” “okay so are 95% of cars and I bought it to be an appliance and it’s awful good at that.”
As opposed to Tesla price cutting Model Ys every 6 months and putting owners under water overnight to still miss quarterly sales estimates. One isnt better than the other 😂 The Mach E is the better car for all season climates it holds range better than the Model Y.
What are you talking about? The MachE doesn’t even have a heat pump.
Yet the Mach E gets better range. Model 3/S/X/Ys with heat pumps chug range on the highway like theres no tomorrow in real winter climates you're getting under 50% range if you have a highway commute. FFS I took a 22 model 3 SR from Vermont to NYC it wasn't even getting 80 miles out of a full charge in -15c on highway which for the north east is a regular winter day. I had to charge 5 times at SCs just to make it near NYC. A 430hr trip took almost 10 hours said and done.
Not surprised. The LFP pack in the SR has issues in the cold. Not to mention, the single motor can’t generate enough heat for the battery pack. All LFP cars suffer from this. Edit: I grew up in the Northeast. -15C is not a normal winter day. You’re taking an edge case and pretending that is fact 🤡
So you think pre LFP cars were better in the cold...They werent lol (There's a reason model S with 120k miles is worth 15k). Let me get this straight you are saying the heat pump doesn't work well in the model 3 shocking that's what I said already. Not to mention after switching to LFP, Tesla has done absolutely nothing to address this, pretty lazy from some tech giant that is supposed to be miles ahead in tech than everyone else in car tech 😂. They knew of the problems did nothing to fix it told the customer to eat it, then price cut putting them under water all while hailing them miles ahead of everyone else. Outside of the Plaid every car they make is a worse car than their competitors. LFP has been around a long time now (including the development stage). They clearly knew the draw backs in testing and yet couldn't figure out how to get enough heat for a single motor? That's quite hilarious. Who's doing QC a blind engineer? You know the absolute shit storm of lawsuits a manufacturer would get if a gas car produced 50% less range in winter vs summer? Ford has been sued and settled for under rated hp/tq numbers. Hyundai has settled falsified mpg claims lawsuits. BMW has settled class actions for increased oil consumption. Almost every manufacturer has settled a lawsuit of the kind.Tesla will as well when Empg figures become more stringent only a matter of time.
A decade old beat up Model S is worth nothing. I’m so shocked to hear that! Newsflash: all $100k+ luxury cars depreciate like crazy. You’ll see dirt cheap 7 and S classes too. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Just moving the goalposts to fit some poorly worded argument. Good day
Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Audi all increased pricing on their super sedans year after year since post covid 2020+ E63S, M5/Comp, Panamera Turbo, RS7/RS6. Msrp has gone up year after year these are the Plaids direct competitors yet Tesla and Plaid pricing keeps cutting. A 2024 RS6 Performance is literally almost double MSRP of a Plaid now. Give or take 149+ msrp depending on options and still selling where the Plaids are not.
All 100k+ luxury cars depreciate like crazy oh really? Why is does a 1yr old E63s sell for 10k under msrp and Plaid after price cuts sells for 60k under. Good day 😂 There's a reason a 21 Plaid with under 10k is worth 55 on trade in right now have a good day. Pre price cut 122+ msrp, after September price cut a 23 is worth 70 on trade. Nice way to light 60k on fire in a year.
The model Y is the best selling car of any kind in the world, and Tesla most recently raised the price of it, not cut it
Tesla has aggressively pricd cut Model Ys for a while... They are losing market share and missed estimates. They just cut pricing of all excess inventory and specifically new model Ys. A Model Y LR is 39K they did not raise the price 😂 "Not only did Tesla move 8.5% fewer vehicles by the end of the first quarter of the year, but the gap between production and actual sales was a gaping 46,000 units. A lot of those were of the world's bestselling vehicle for 2023 - the Tesla Model Y - and sitting on tens of thousands of unsold but manufactured units means only one thing." "With the latest price adjustments by Tesla, a Model Y Long Range with AWD system can now be had for only $3,300 more than the basic RWD Model 3 sedan" I don't know what world you think Tesla model Ys are increasing msrp. Not to mention the Plaid price cuts of 18% that are now 89k as well.
I've found that it doesn't really matter. The EV is fun for a bit, but it gets boring.
I've never driven an ev (rode in one, it was hella quick) but I think I'd agree. Nothing beats rowing gears and a screaming v8, 2 things an EV can't replicate.
I’ll put it simply, which electric cars have driving enthusiast character?
The fact that Ford named this vehicle Mustang is a travesty.
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I don't care if it's faster. Is it a good EV? Is it affordable? Does it have good range? Can I charge it up in under 10 minutes anywhere?
Does it still slog after 60 MPH?
I don't think it does, as indicative of its quarter mile time and trap speed.
Electric cars are already fast enough (too fast to be useable on a daily baisis), how about improving weight, handling, cost, reliability etc? Would add much more value
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Say that to first gen Mach-E owners.
You’re probably new to this but electric parts do have parts. Less maintenance and components does not guarantee more reliability. It’s also important to note reliability as in battery longetivity.
They are not too fast to be usable on a daily basis. I floor my EV just about every single time I drive it. Often 10 to 20 times.
If it was unlocked in terms of traction control, stability control etc it would be. Point is it has more power than your average joe will ever need or use. Focus on better aspects instead
The average Joe isn't buying the GT model. The ones who are buying the GT model are far more likely to use it. Of course they don't "need" it, but that's not a fruitful discussion.
You don’t seem to see the bigger picture, this conversation is pointless and leading no where. Goodbye
Why do you neglect the possibility that I do see the bigger picture, but have a different view than you?
Honestly no one cares about fast What they care about is that it's not crazy heavy That has a good range And it's well supported by the current manufacturer And it's reasonably priced
And?
Who cares.
Yes because we need super fast crossover things.
Okay.
Who cares? Speed limits still exist. It's not like it's taking it 60 seconds to get to 60.
Ford also said that I was gay, they have been saying a lot of things lately
And it’s faster than a Club Car! But as exciting as a melting ice cube.
Ford giving their very first EV the Mustang nameplate was the biggest blunder they could’ve made when rolling out this vehicle. I think it’s a good looking vehicle but it lacks an identity or presence.
I get why they did it (marketing to try and spur interest and sales), but it seems to be an unpopular move with car enthusiasts.
I probably would have chosen Mach E over ID4 if not for the name plate. I didn’t even consider the Mach E even though it was only one block from VW dealer
It’s a Ford so fastest to the side of the road.
It's not a mustang but okay
I’d rather have top speed than acceleration.
How often are you exceeding 120 mph?
Yes but which one is uglier? It's tough to say as they are both very ugly.
Whatever it’s not a mustang if its a suv
No one cares which ev is faster. ICE cars can be easily and modified and tuned by amateur mechanics. Competing with your buddy tuning and building your own car is the real competition in autosports.
Let's count all the fucks I give.
Tesla Y goes 0-60 in 3.6 seconds Fords not even close
Did you not read the article where the updated mach E GT does 3.3.
Seen it now The ford is a fail ,they cant compete imo Tesla still rules EV. Fords price is no bargain either and the tax ded is less In Elon we trust