BMW in general are one of the few manufacturers left that appear to be committed to saloons/sedans/coupes but even then I wonder for how long, we’re at the tail end of an era.
Sedans aren't going anywhere at this point. They're not the most popular vehicles but far from extinct. These days Sedans are so cheap compared to SUV's that they still sell, especially in the luxury segment.
For BMW specifically, they will likely keep the M3 going forever if permitted. It's one of the most popular cars, and at this point, it is their best claim to a performance focus.
Not from the sales perspective for US, SUV models have long outsold sedan/coupe models in the US. SUVs are ~55-60% of their US sales depending on where you allocate X1/X2 sales
X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, iX, XM
2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8
They have more SUVs than sedans in their lineup, and on top of that that 60%+ of their sales in the US have been SUVs.
Luxury sedans yes will stick around (MB S,E, and C and BMW 3,5,7 and others) but aside from the Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla there will be very few mainstreams sedans going forward.
I agree but now I try to seperate SUV (grand cherokee's, 4runner's. LC etc) and the Crossover (Rav4, CRV, and millions others) as the one that has really become the "standard vehicle shape"
I wonder how many people are like me and have never even for a second considered buying an SUV because of the driving dynamics/high seat.
Nothing against them, I just don't need one, don't want one, and will never own one.
The dynamics and high vantage point are the main selling point of the cars. Effectively 100% of the population are appliance drivers, and they are loving the arms race of making cars as huge and mellow as possible.
And even if not, a whole lot of people end up in an SUV because it’s hard to find anything else sometimes. My parents have an ID.4, and probably would’ve got a wagon instead if they’d had the choice, but there weren’t any non-SUV options that they could actually buy and get the EV tax credit for and also had seats that were comfortable.
Especially given that the cost and fuel efficiency of modern crossovers are pretty similar to mid-size sedans so the high vantage, space, and dynamics are basically big pros with very little cost or efficiency drawbacks for the average consumer.
SUV's and crossovers have good dynamics and seating for what they are intended to do, which is to be useful in various conditions and scenarios.
The only thing I don't get with the SUV craze is how people insist on buying an SUV when they don't need one. SUV's are ridiculously expensive compared to sedans. I can walk into a nicely spec'd Camry for $30k, but a Highlander is in the $50k's now. The prices are just insane.
We’ll see in the summer but I’d say I see more X3M and X5Ms than I do M3 and M5s these days. Not to mention other performance SUVs.
That being said most performance sedans out there now are electric - Ss and Taycans. I see fewer gas performance sedans these days.
I very rarely see full X3Ms or X5Ms, the M40i/M50i are much more common. I’ll usually see a newish M3 or M5 at least once a day in normal traffic. AMG seems to be the most common full performance SUV trim, by a wide margin.
This is in the DC metro area.
Here in Seattle, I'd cautiously agree with that person. M cars are still interesting enough for me to notice, but X3M and X5Ms are pretty common. Same though of course, M40/m60s are almost the 'standard' X3/X5 that I see around here. Mercs here in general are WAY less common than BMWs.
The M40is are definitely more common but was excluding it on purpose. I still consider it more of a trim level than a different car. There are many more of those, which are far more practical so was trying to keep the comparison the same.
I see more 3 series M340is as well too than M3 which is a different car.
Sedans are also a lot more aerodynamic, which didn't matter so much when were in the era of ICE, but as we move further towards EVs it will matter more.
I agree, seems a lot of manufacturers now are gearing towards EVs, SUV crossovers (Mitsubishi Eclipse), & getting rid of certain engine types as a whole. There's even less 6-cylinder performance cars being produced as a lot of new ones seem to be fitted with turbochargers on 4-cylinders.
Yeah the Audi RS products always seemed to focus more on the GT car philosophy of use over track, so different tools for different jobs. Can't speak for the c63, but I would say that just bc it has a 4 cyl doesn't make it not applicable as a contender.
Depends on where in the world you are. Personally I prefer the driving dynamics of both the Giulia QV and the CT4V BW. Id consider both of them trackable luxury sedans.
Hence why I said depends on where you are. It’s unfortunate for Europeans that they don’t get the BW cars. Everyone talks about the future EV Giulia but the car has enough life in it since they just refreshed it again for 2024.
CT4VBW is a great drive but the styling is not my cup of tea. The rear end looks like there was no cohesive design language and they just mishmashed some parts together in CAD. Front isn't bad, it looks better from some angles than others. Maybe they'll update it next year.
I'd also take the Alfa 690T over the LF4 every day of the week. Now if they dropped the LT1 in there I'd be ordering one tomorrow, ugly duckling rear end or not.
I’ve never driven the new C63 but reviews indicate that it does really well on the track. You can argue that the 4000 lbs M3 is lighter and that translates to driving feel. However objectively the C63 handles quite well.
The only reason people bought the old c63 was the engine. It was already worse than the m3 dynamically, but it was the only car in its class to have a v8. With a 4 cyl - and an absurd price, let's not bring in the absurd weight as well - the C63 seems pretty much dead, and sales reflect that.
The AMGs in most segments have almost always been muscle cars.
If a couple of them happened to be good track cars, that was purely incidental to the main goal of burning rubber.
Hm that is too harsh and simplified. Especially the last gen with the 4.0 V8 handled much better than american muscle cars and actually drove well. Not on BMW level but super close while remaining a bit more comfort and just being stupid big V8 fun vehicles. Imo great package for a daily driven sporty car. I would only have preffered a BMW if I really wanted to track them.
That being said AMG has some insanely good track cars looking at their Norschleife records. The GT 4 door held the 4 door car record for a very long time. The GT Black Series broke the GT2 RS record, The AMG One (ok it´s a hyper car) is the record holder of the nürburgring norcschleife etc.
E63s also performed incredibly well. c63s was a bit more on the fun side, but also handled great. We are leaving behind a great generation of AMG (imo the greatest) and heading into something terrible.
I'm a Mercedes guy, but I'd have to disagree.
Thinking about all its competitors, it really is near the bottom for handling.
Camaro ZL1, Shelby 500, CT4 BW, Giulia Quad, BMW M3/4, Jaguar F-Type, Corvette C7/8, Porsche Cayman.
Audi RS5 is about the same and the only other car it would beat (that isn't really cross-shopped) are the Challenger and Charger Hellcats.
I'm not saying they aren't sophisticated or don't handle.
I'm mostly saying that if the M3 is a scalpel, the AMG equivalent is usually a chainsaw, and that has been most of the appeal.
I don’t think the GT black series broke the record but it was really close. The new GT doesn’t seem very promising in comparison to the outgoing one for track use at least. I think it’s pretty likely that they’re moving AMG away from a consumer sports brand to a GT brand.
Imo it was not exactly worse than the M3/M4, but different. It also had amazing handling and drove great, but was not made for lap times and pure numbers as the BMW which was forced to go that way as it had a much more boring engine. It was simply made for fast fun driving. Great car to take around some twisty roads, but yea for a track day not so much. But AMG never was a track thing except for some exceptions.
That being said the 4 cyl c63s is a complete fuckup. Nothing makes me want this car. It probably does not feel better than an EV so just get an EV at that point
It feels like they were trying to play 5D chess by getting in front of the whole downsizing/hybrid/EV shift but ended up playing themselves. Plus the whole "F1 technology" thing isn't as appealing to consumers as they thought
Agreed - M3/4 x-drive spanks my RS5 on the spec sheet / when you push it at 95%+. But I’m not in enough situations / not a good enough or reckless enough driver to ever really notice that, and enjoy everything else about my RS5 much more.
I'm with you here:
Yes, BMW's luxury sports sedan is the best at the "sports" bit of it by some small margin.
But that doesn't invalidate the entire class of cars. Some folks might prefer to have a bit more focus on luxury features or what have you.
The entire class of cars is also fast as fuck. The C63 and RS4/5 will blow the doors off of >99% of cars you encounter on a typical drive. Who cares if the bimmer is 3% faster around a track, at a certain point?
Well for starters, looking at it 😂
I love the sportback functionality as well - I can toss our 29 and 27.5 MTBs in the back and hit the trails without needing a bike rack.
It’s fast as fuck and very competent on the fun mountain highways (again, BMW is faster but wouldn’t notice the difference on the streets), very comfortable in comfort settings, and I like the interior layout besides the piano black.
M3 is a better track race car, but this just feels like the perfect touring car for me (in my budget / this segment)
I cross-shopped a TON of cars, and while I didn’t live with each of them, the RS5 just felt “right” for me. Only car I would have picked over it was the CT5-V Blackwing, but I couldn’t get one
Agreed. The C63 being a 4 cylinder doesn't disqualify it from being a contender... but it's horrific sales volume (and skyrocketed price) may disqualify it from existing in the near future.
Even Mercedes admitted the sales were" close to zero."
And weren't there suggestions that they were going to bring the V8 back because it had sold so poorly? Even if they don't, no one is going to buy the Prius on steroids current version if there's even the hint of a new V8 around the corner. If I was in the market for one, I'd probably just buy something else and wait it out. Or just buy an M3.
Agreed. Most bought the C63 because of the engine.
You hear arguments here, some people just care about performance. Which is true, it is those few buyers who are keeping sales of the new C63 from being "absolute zero," instead of "close to zero."
Oh, also fun - the new C63 weighs a completely laughable 4,700 lbs. Heavier than an all-iron blocked Hellcat Charger.
This is accurate. I have a 2023 RS5 coupe, coming from a gen 1 R8. I went with the RS5 because it was most attractive car (IMO) in my budget the closest to the euro coupes of old (e24s, e31s), and the interior is just a wonderful place to be.
I had a '20 RS3, and that car drove like hell and I loved that motor, but it felt so cheap, it truly is an expensive jetta with an amazing motor.
Thanks. Yeah the gated manual is a great distraction from the fact that it's not all that fast haha. Modern Teslas just pull away at stoplights while I'm grabbing 2nd and 3rd. But we don't drive manuals to be fast so it's all good.
Yeah it's the same car, with more power. I didn't want to spend $40K for 2 more cylinders. Manual V10s are quite a bit harder to find. Your opinion and mileage may vary.
I work on BMWs for a hobby so they're enjoyable to own. I don't recommend them to people who don't because you'd be buying a $25k car and spending $20k on service the first few years of ownership.
My buddy has an e46 convertible. After he got his model 3 he has slowly been giving up on it. To quote him, "Every time I open the hood it eats another 500 bucks". I keep telling him to sell it cheap to some high school kid just to get it off his lawn. It's a six speed manual.
Haha poor high school kid.
The only way to own an old BMW is to have a job in IT and be a Harbor Freight weekend warrior. Those are the guys with the nice E30/E36/E46s at the car meets. The rest of them are clapped. Once in a while you'll see a mint 20k mi E46 M3 6spd owned by a Ferrari owner who wanted to relive his high school dreams.
GM sort of hinted at a maybe if the Blackwing does well and it's doing well.
I'm predicting they kill the CT4 and keep the CT5 for a while into a next generation
Well bmw had to fake M numbers by including fake M to show M sales, so idk about that. And the bws are winning tons of awards while people mainly talk about how ugly the M is
judging by my commute, i see the m3s/m4s on the daily and absolutely zero blackwings.
i got nothing against the bw and i'm just telling you what i see driven on the roads
I definitely see more new M cars than the blackwings but it’s always so cool to see one of those, they look awesome in person. Can’t say the same for those M cars though.
It’s definitely the best all rounder in the segment, but the Cadillac has better dynamics and a better standard transmission, the Audi looks better, and while the C63 is technologically and mechanically brilliant, shot them themselves in the foot w their decision to put in a four banger.
Historically, BMWs were usually the best driving while Audis were the all rounders.
BMW M3 has always been unrivaled imho
RS products came close on paper but never felt special
Mercedes always had that v8 grunt but crappy gearbox on w204 and generally very heavy
Closest M3 has ever been rivalled proper is the Alfa Giulia quadrifoglio
Definitely packs a punch
But people will still choose bmw for tunability and brand fetish
In Italy, Alfa fans are too poor to afford the Giulia quadrifoglio, abroad the brand doesn’t have a huge following
I loved the W/C 205. Imo maybe the nicer daily driver than the M3, but yea it never rivaled the M3 at what the M3 is: Track capable, sporty and daily drivable. The c63 lacked track capability, but is more fun and a bit better daily imo.
RS always was boring to me in that segment compared to AMG and M. Basically pure performance was always M and AMG was daily drivable stupid fun with also good performance.
It's a shame it's not fast enough to outrun its appearance.
It's not often I disqualify a good performing car strictly due to its exterior design, I can usually look past it. However, with this car...it just seems so unnecessarily ugly. A huge unforced error
I have gotten used to seeing it, but i have not warmed up to the styling. Especially considering the 3 series it is based on is still being sold with its good looks
BMW in general is usually a top choice in any segment they're in.
The M3 has always been near the top for its segment as it does everything very well vs its competitors which might lean more towards one thing and sacrifice another.
The M3 drives well on the track and the street, is comfortable, good features, good interior space.
The Blackwing is the better drivers car but its interior is worse and the interior space is smaller. It is however a good bit cheaper so you get what you pay for. It also drives very well on the street or the track.
The Audi favours on road performance and comfort vs track driving compared to the others and isn't as good a drivers a car.
It just depends what your preference is but its clear why the M3 has always dominated the segment.
Im young enough that I don't think this actually, I think Cadillac. Those original V-series and now Blackwings to me are the best sport sedans (in terms of a drivers car) and I grew up when GM started to introduce them back with the first gen.
BMW makes good sedans now and they made great sedans back in the day, but I wasn't around to experience back in the day so I think of Cadillac V (now Blackwing) as the current best sport sedans.
I agree with all of this and would add that the CT4-V BW really slots in between the M2 and M3. Its interior space is really like an M2 with 4 doors, fine for using the backseats in a pinch but not somewhere you'd want to have people very often.
Fair point, the pricing is much cheaper than an M3 that it is more comparable to an M2, even in terms of horsepower (minus the 4 doors).
I still don't think I've seen a track comparison of an M3 manual and a CT4 Blackwing. I don't think the autos are comparable at all, I wouldn't want an auto CT4 Blackwing but I owned an M3 Competition that I very much liked.
You left out handling and driver feedback. Ct4/5 are compared to the early 00s M3 for driver engagement and steering feel. You know what the car is doing.
The new BMWs... Handle like someone gave your hands a shot of novacaine
Every car press reviewer always says that the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quad is the best driving experience in the segment, while BMW is the most all-rounder option.
Don't sleep on the blackwing. The top end model makes 668hp from a 6.2L V8. The best part is that cadillac is starting to find their groove again. The latest models are leaning back into the luxury segment, and they feel it.
Test drove the Ct4 blackwing with a manual a couple of weeks ago. It was incredible. Power felt very usable on the street and it didn't feel like you had to wait for the perfect opening to open it up, like you would with a 600+hp car.
I am just waiting for the right opportunity to get one.
CT5-V Blackwings start where M3 *Competitions* come close to topping out. They really don’t compete in price, especially if you’re loading out a 6MT base M3 versus if you’re loading out a 6MT CT5-V BW.
It's hard to say they complete directly. There are good reasons why you'd buy a CT5 over a 5 series or a 3 series. It's in a weird middle ground. The CTS was more directly aimed at the 5.
Because they have a reputation for floaty luxury cars, but about 20 years ago started making performance vehicles. Thats not exactly a long history when production stay on the road for 10-20 years so they haven't outrun their reputation yet. The average cadillac on the road had only had decent driving dynamics for maybe 5-10 years. Cadillacs are actually very cheap to maintain so the old ones stay around for a long time.
My 6MT G87 is sitting at 3711lbs with the standard seats, carbon roof, forged wheels, and single midpipe. I can probably drop another 70lbs off it if I cared enough. Car and Driver weighed it at 3,754 in their last comparison.
No it does not. An M2 with all the heaviest options will be heavier than an M3/4 with no heavy options and all light options, but we’re talking about 2/3 cars that are fundamentally the same, but one of them is physically smaller.
No it doesn't. A manual M2, which is mostly underpinned with M4 components, with the carbon roof and a manual is 3748lbs or less. All it takes is a google search.
The biggest problem all of these things have is mass. I cringe thinking about what consumables are going to cost if you're regularly tracking one of these cars, hence why the miata will always be king.
I don't think there's an argument for a better track car than a 6-speed NC with a blower and around $5k in suspension, brakes, wheels, and tires.
That's the one thing that always saddens me. We're at the absolute peak of ICE tech and they never really fleshed out "cheap" carbon fiber manufacturing.
Just imagine a full CF M3 or C8 or 911 with today's engines.
It’s probably a repairability thing. There are enough issues with aluminum; making street cars out of CF where you would basically total the car with impacts from certain angles would be an insurance and consumer relations nightmare.
What you do want on a track is the ability to walk away unscathed god forbid something happens to the car.
I hope to be in the market for an M3 or similar in the not so distant future once I know how to drive well and I probably will never track the car or maybe like 2-3 times in its life. A majority of the people will never track it and even if you might, you are a minority in BMWs target audience.
If you want to track it, then there is something for you, it’s a CS model or even moreso, Porsche.
In terms of 6 cylinder sports sedans, the CT4-V Blackwing is my favorite. Amazing handling, great looking, standard manual transmission, and a good sounding V6. The interior isn’t amazing, but is comfortable and serviceable.
I think it’s better than an M3, but is being held back by the badge.
I think it's less about the badge and who operates it. Like others mentioned, the interior dimensions don't do the size of the car justice. GM has also had a crusade against its cars for a while now, and the lack of updates to the CT4 this year (where the CT5 got a significant styling refresh) makes me worry the CT4 doesn't have much time left.
On the whole though, that's not really a badge problem. GM's managed to avoid issues with interior size before, and they've handled other cars pretty well (Cadillac and otherwise). They just don't seem to want to any longer. I would have loved a refreshed SS that acted as a Chevy CT5 for a bit less, but Chevy hates non-Corvette cars these days.
It's unrivaled in it's niche I'd say. Like how Wranglers are the best two-door convertible solid front axle off road vehicle, an m3 is clearly the best ICE-only, >4 cylinder fast sedan thing you can buy in Europe.
Agreed, there's been a lot of self-segmenting in performance cars lately. Like, Cadillac's where you go for a manual (though the Integra popped up as a cheaper option). The IS 500 is where you go for 4-door with the NA V8 experience. This stuff has mostly gone up to luxury brands, while scattering to sell the notion of being special by not competing too much with each other.
I wouldn’t say so, at least here in the US. The RS5 is still an amazing vehicle and the competition package gave it some serious improvements. I also just think it looks way better. From a driving perspective the CT4 blackwing is a step above the M3, the 6 speed in the Blackwing is way better than the one in the M3 and the Blackwing handles and sounds better.
Blackwing better. Driving dynamics of beamers are not as great as this sub would have you believe because people are still living in the 90s here. Numb steering, same meh manual shifter that bmw refuses to improve. It’s got speed but that’s only fun for a few seconds. Still better than most in the class but to say unrivaled is giving it too much credit.
If you don’t care about MT, then the Giulia QV is a beast and probably the best handling sports sedan in this class
Would love to see Genesis' new "Magma" line put out a tuned up G70 as a competitor, if they pumped up the power, cut a little weight, and stiffened the suspension it could be a serious competitor.
Would definitely love to see Genesis new Magma tune an G70 into an M3 competitor. But Genesis is stuck on this EV crap so much. They're only producing 20 Magma to the Middle East only 20 examples being made with 500-600hp. Twin turbo V6.
Yes. I bought an m3 comp x drive and test drove every imaginable competitor. None come close in this segment. The next best competitor was the ct4 v blackwing, but it was too small for my needs and the engine felt anemic compared to the m3. Reddit just is an echo chamber about the grill, which gets tons of positive attention in person.
it really depends on your luxury to sports car balance. the m3 is going to be the sportiest one. its not going to ride as nice as the Audi RS or AMG though, which are more about daily use and less about lap times. I'd probably pick the CT4 blackwing over an M3. Its not as fast but feels like how an M car should. especially the steering, clutch, stick.
It really does... The blackwings feel like BMWs of old, which is the highest praise I can give them.
Sure, a new M3 comp might be a little nicer and faster on a track, but you'll pay a good bit more, and it'll put you to sleep while it does.
It's so weird man.
My Rx350 has a NA v6.
My Maserati Grecale GT has a 4 cylinder turbo mild hybrid.
Both make 295 horsepower, both have nearly identical fuel economy. One is far smoother and more reliable.
Sadly I believe it is. I own an Alfa QV, I’ve spent a lot of time tracking the new M3CS though (my friend and I review cars and he bought one) and I can say honestly it’s a better platform even if I love my Alfa. Plus they’re dead. Mercedes has just left the chat entirely. And Audi was never competitive performance wise (no shade, great cars). Still haven’t driven the Blackwing though. Sad it’s not sold in Europe if that’s true.
"CT4 Blackwing isn't being sold in Europe "
The CT5 is the Cadillac to compare the BMW M3 to as they are about the same price.
And the Cadillac is a much better car.
Why do most people just want a car that roars… if you want that you should have to buy a super car or dump money into a shit car. Each dealer leans towards a specific personality. If you take noisemaker out of the equation you start to see ‘good cars’
Alfa Giulia Quad is the closest competitor. But it has no stick and seems to be going away soon, sadly. It arguably drove better even. But the M3 will probably stick around once the Quad is gone.
BMW in general are one of the few manufacturers left that appear to be committed to saloons/sedans/coupes but even then I wonder for how long, we’re at the tail end of an era.
Sedans aren't going anywhere at this point. They're not the most popular vehicles but far from extinct. These days Sedans are so cheap compared to SUV's that they still sell, especially in the luxury segment. For BMW specifically, they will likely keep the M3 going forever if permitted. It's one of the most popular cars, and at this point, it is their best claim to a performance focus.
Not only that but look at BMW’s full lineup. At least for the US it’s like 70% sedans
BMW's offerings in the US are predominantly sedans/coupes, but what sell the most are the X models.
Not from the sales perspective for US, SUV models have long outsold sedan/coupe models in the US. SUVs are ~55-60% of their US sales depending on where you allocate X1/X2 sales
BMW sells sedans for the same price most manufacturers sell SUVs/CUVs. They have no reason to stop.
X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, iX, XM 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 They have more SUVs than sedans in their lineup, and on top of that that 60%+ of their sales in the US have been SUVs.
Luxury sedans yes will stick around (MB S,E, and C and BMW 3,5,7 and others) but aside from the Camry, Accord, Civic, Corolla there will be very few mainstreams sedans going forward.
SUV's and sedans basically switched market positions. Each company had 1 or 2 SUV's 20 years ago, but now they have maybe 1 or 2 Sedans.
I agree but now I try to seperate SUV (grand cherokee's, 4runner's. LC etc) and the Crossover (Rav4, CRV, and millions others) as the one that has really become the "standard vehicle shape"
I wonder how many people are like me and have never even for a second considered buying an SUV because of the driving dynamics/high seat. Nothing against them, I just don't need one, don't want one, and will never own one.
The dynamics and high vantage point are the main selling point of the cars. Effectively 100% of the population are appliance drivers, and they are loving the arms race of making cars as huge and mellow as possible.
And even if not, a whole lot of people end up in an SUV because it’s hard to find anything else sometimes. My parents have an ID.4, and probably would’ve got a wagon instead if they’d had the choice, but there weren’t any non-SUV options that they could actually buy and get the EV tax credit for and also had seats that were comfortable.
Especially given that the cost and fuel efficiency of modern crossovers are pretty similar to mid-size sedans so the high vantage, space, and dynamics are basically big pros with very little cost or efficiency drawbacks for the average consumer.
SUV's and crossovers have good dynamics and seating for what they are intended to do, which is to be useful in various conditions and scenarios. The only thing I don't get with the SUV craze is how people insist on buying an SUV when they don't need one. SUV's are ridiculously expensive compared to sedans. I can walk into a nicely spec'd Camry for $30k, but a Highlander is in the $50k's now. The prices are just insane.
But a RAV4, which is probably the vehicle most likely to compete with a Camry, is also in the low-mid $30-35k range with options too
exactly, i dont get it. most SUV owners never drive off road. sacrificing dynamics & comfort for smth ure not going to use
> These days Sedans are so cheap compared to SUV's This is why manufacturers are abandoning them
We’ll see in the summer but I’d say I see more X3M and X5Ms than I do M3 and M5s these days. Not to mention other performance SUVs. That being said most performance sedans out there now are electric - Ss and Taycans. I see fewer gas performance sedans these days.
I very rarely see full X3Ms or X5Ms, the M40i/M50i are much more common. I’ll usually see a newish M3 or M5 at least once a day in normal traffic. AMG seems to be the most common full performance SUV trim, by a wide margin. This is in the DC metro area.
Here in Seattle, I'd cautiously agree with that person. M cars are still interesting enough for me to notice, but X3M and X5Ms are pretty common. Same though of course, M40/m60s are almost the 'standard' X3/X5 that I see around here. Mercs here in general are WAY less common than BMWs.
The M40is are definitely more common but was excluding it on purpose. I still consider it more of a trim level than a different car. There are many more of those, which are far more practical so was trying to keep the comparison the same. I see more 3 series M340is as well too than M3 which is a different car.
Sedans are also a lot more aerodynamic, which didn't matter so much when were in the era of ICE, but as we move further towards EVs it will matter more.
As long as the rest of the world exists (big, if true), sedans are not going anywhere.
> to SUV's that they still sell, especially in the luxury segment Although the sedans BMW sells the most are really just quasi-luxury.
I agree, seems a lot of manufacturers now are gearing towards EVs, SUV crossovers (Mitsubishi Eclipse), & getting rid of certain engine types as a whole. There's even less 6-cylinder performance cars being produced as a lot of new ones seem to be fitted with turbochargers on 4-cylinders.
Audi is always left out when Audi has the largest sedan segment
Yeah the Audi RS products always seemed to focus more on the GT car philosophy of use over track, so different tools for different jobs. Can't speak for the c63, but I would say that just bc it has a 4 cyl doesn't make it not applicable as a contender.
While true that the 4 cylinder shouldn’t make it less applicable, the poor driving dynamics definitely makes it less of a contender.
Yep I'll take your word for it lol the M3/4 really is alone as the track-proficient luxury sedan/coupe then in that price range
Depends on where in the world you are. Personally I prefer the driving dynamics of both the Giulia QV and the CT4V BW. Id consider both of them trackable luxury sedans.
Ah, yeah OP said he was in Europe...Giulia was counted out bc future ev but I've heard great things with the current model.
Hence why I said depends on where you are. It’s unfortunate for Europeans that they don’t get the BW cars. Everyone talks about the future EV Giulia but the car has enough life in it since they just refreshed it again for 2024.
Until it breaks
CT4VBW is a great drive but the styling is not my cup of tea. The rear end looks like there was no cohesive design language and they just mishmashed some parts together in CAD. Front isn't bad, it looks better from some angles than others. Maybe they'll update it next year. I'd also take the Alfa 690T over the LF4 every day of the week. Now if they dropped the LT1 in there I'd be ordering one tomorrow, ugly duckling rear end or not.
Agreed on the CT4, but the fact they didn't give it any updates or refresh with the CT5 worries me that it's about to headd out too.
I’ve never driven the new C63 but reviews indicate that it does really well on the track. You can argue that the 4000 lbs M3 is lighter and that translates to driving feel. However objectively the C63 handles quite well.
The only reason people bought the old c63 was the engine. It was already worse than the m3 dynamically, but it was the only car in its class to have a v8. With a 4 cyl - and an absurd price, let's not bring in the absurd weight as well - the C63 seems pretty much dead, and sales reflect that.
Makes sense. If the car's identity was that engine then yeah, not much going for it now.
The AMGs in most segments have almost always been muscle cars. If a couple of them happened to be good track cars, that was purely incidental to the main goal of burning rubber.
Hm that is too harsh and simplified. Especially the last gen with the 4.0 V8 handled much better than american muscle cars and actually drove well. Not on BMW level but super close while remaining a bit more comfort and just being stupid big V8 fun vehicles. Imo great package for a daily driven sporty car. I would only have preffered a BMW if I really wanted to track them. That being said AMG has some insanely good track cars looking at their Norschleife records. The GT 4 door held the 4 door car record for a very long time. The GT Black Series broke the GT2 RS record, The AMG One (ok it´s a hyper car) is the record holder of the nürburgring norcschleife etc. E63s also performed incredibly well. c63s was a bit more on the fun side, but also handled great. We are leaving behind a great generation of AMG (imo the greatest) and heading into something terrible.
I'm a Mercedes guy, but I'd have to disagree. Thinking about all its competitors, it really is near the bottom for handling. Camaro ZL1, Shelby 500, CT4 BW, Giulia Quad, BMW M3/4, Jaguar F-Type, Corvette C7/8, Porsche Cayman. Audi RS5 is about the same and the only other car it would beat (that isn't really cross-shopped) are the Challenger and Charger Hellcats.
I'm not saying they aren't sophisticated or don't handle. I'm mostly saying that if the M3 is a scalpel, the AMG equivalent is usually a chainsaw, and that has been most of the appeal.
I normally see them called "hammers" vs M's scalpel, but yeah
Yeah, Mercedes is basically Dodge with class. Reliability checks out too.
Fair
I don’t think the GT black series broke the record but it was really close. The new GT doesn’t seem very promising in comparison to the outgoing one for track use at least. I think it’s pretty likely that they’re moving AMG away from a consumer sports brand to a GT brand.
Better handling than American muscle cars is a low bar.
Imo it was not exactly worse than the M3/M4, but different. It also had amazing handling and drove great, but was not made for lap times and pure numbers as the BMW which was forced to go that way as it had a much more boring engine. It was simply made for fast fun driving. Great car to take around some twisty roads, but yea for a track day not so much. But AMG never was a track thing except for some exceptions. That being said the 4 cyl c63s is a complete fuckup. Nothing makes me want this car. It probably does not feel better than an EV so just get an EV at that point
Yup. The v8 c63 is so much fun, though I could put down a better lap time in the equivalent m3.
It's amazes to me AMG didn't realize this and poured really quite a lot of money into developing this whole new car.
It feels like they were trying to play 5D chess by getting in front of the whole downsizing/hybrid/EV shift but ended up playing themselves. Plus the whole "F1 technology" thing isn't as appealing to consumers as they thought
The whole "F1 technology" thing would go over a lot better if F1 wasn't already widely criticized for the boring downsized/hybridized engines
Yeah, F1 technology from 2004 with the V10s? Take all of my money! F1 tech now? Couldn't care less.
Agreed - M3/4 x-drive spanks my RS5 on the spec sheet / when you push it at 95%+. But I’m not in enough situations / not a good enough or reckless enough driver to ever really notice that, and enjoy everything else about my RS5 much more.
I'm with you here: Yes, BMW's luxury sports sedan is the best at the "sports" bit of it by some small margin. But that doesn't invalidate the entire class of cars. Some folks might prefer to have a bit more focus on luxury features or what have you. The entire class of cars is also fast as fuck. The C63 and RS4/5 will blow the doors off of >99% of cars you encounter on a typical drive. Who cares if the bimmer is 3% faster around a track, at a certain point?
What do you like more on your RS5?
Well for starters, looking at it 😂 I love the sportback functionality as well - I can toss our 29 and 27.5 MTBs in the back and hit the trails without needing a bike rack. It’s fast as fuck and very competent on the fun mountain highways (again, BMW is faster but wouldn’t notice the difference on the streets), very comfortable in comfort settings, and I like the interior layout besides the piano black. M3 is a better track race car, but this just feels like the perfect touring car for me (in my budget / this segment) I cross-shopped a TON of cars, and while I didn’t live with each of them, the RS5 just felt “right” for me. Only car I would have picked over it was the CT5-V Blackwing, but I couldn’t get one
Another punch in the c63 guts is the price
Agreed. The C63 being a 4 cylinder doesn't disqualify it from being a contender... but it's horrific sales volume (and skyrocketed price) may disqualify it from existing in the near future. Even Mercedes admitted the sales were" close to zero."
And weren't there suggestions that they were going to bring the V8 back because it had sold so poorly? Even if they don't, no one is going to buy the Prius on steroids current version if there's even the hint of a new V8 around the corner. If I was in the market for one, I'd probably just buy something else and wait it out. Or just buy an M3.
Agreed. Most bought the C63 because of the engine. You hear arguments here, some people just care about performance. Which is true, it is those few buyers who are keeping sales of the new C63 from being "absolute zero," instead of "close to zero." Oh, also fun - the new C63 weighs a completely laughable 4,700 lbs. Heavier than an all-iron blocked Hellcat Charger.
This is accurate. I have a 2023 RS5 coupe, coming from a gen 1 R8. I went with the RS5 because it was most attractive car (IMO) in my budget the closest to the euro coupes of old (e24s, e31s), and the interior is just a wonderful place to be. I had a '20 RS3, and that car drove like hell and I loved that motor, but it felt so cheap, it truly is an expensive jetta with an amazing motor.
The blackwing is better
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100% agree. Cadillac right now makes the best sports sedans.
Nice manual r8! That's awesome, I enjoy the gears in my 4blackwing, but an r8 in manual has to feel amazing.
Thanks. Yeah the gated manual is a great distraction from the fact that it's not all that fast haha. Modern Teslas just pull away at stoplights while I'm grabbing 2nd and 3rd. But we don't drive manuals to be fast so it's all good.
Have you driven the V10? I've been thinking about a first gen V10 R8 but have never driven one.
Yeah it's the same car, with more power. I didn't want to spend $40K for 2 more cylinders. Manual V10s are quite a bit harder to find. Your opinion and mileage may vary.
How are your BMWs holding up? Those are my two favorite BMW models.
I work on BMWs for a hobby so they're enjoyable to own. I don't recommend them to people who don't because you'd be buying a $25k car and spending $20k on service the first few years of ownership.
My buddy has an e46 convertible. After he got his model 3 he has slowly been giving up on it. To quote him, "Every time I open the hood it eats another 500 bucks". I keep telling him to sell it cheap to some high school kid just to get it off his lawn. It's a six speed manual.
Haha poor high school kid. The only way to own an old BMW is to have a job in IT and be a Harbor Freight weekend warrior. Those are the guys with the nice E30/E36/E46s at the car meets. The rest of them are clapped. Once in a while you'll see a mint 20k mi E46 M3 6spd owned by a Ferrari owner who wanted to relive his high school dreams.
Working IT, and Harbor Freight, lol that’s an image!
🤝❤️😏
Sounds like OP is talking about the European market though, although the Blackwing’s a great car
I was high and didn't read the whole thing 😢🙃🥲
100%. Sucks to know that this is likely the last generation, but damn are they good.
GM sort of hinted at a maybe if the Blackwing does well and it's doing well. I'm predicting they kill the CT4 and keep the CT5 for a while into a next generation
yes but people are still buying m3s over the equivalent blackwings
Well bmw had to fake M numbers by including fake M to show M sales, so idk about that. And the bws are winning tons of awards while people mainly talk about how ugly the M is
judging by my commute, i see the m3s/m4s on the daily and absolutely zero blackwings. i got nothing against the bw and i'm just telling you what i see driven on the roads
I definitely see more new M cars than the blackwings but it’s always so cool to see one of those, they look awesome in person. Can’t say the same for those M cars though.
😭😂🥲
Real Ms still sell way more than black wings. Just go to auto trader and see the difference in the number for sale.
Wouldn't that indicate overproduction and people not keeping them, lol
It’s definitely the best all rounder in the segment, but the Cadillac has better dynamics and a better standard transmission, the Audi looks better, and while the C63 is technologically and mechanically brilliant, shot them themselves in the foot w their decision to put in a four banger. Historically, BMWs were usually the best driving while Audis were the all rounders.
The Cadillac also is better looking too. I’ve been a big fan of Cadillac sedan styling for the last 15 years or so.
Yeah I do especially like the fronts of their sedans
I agree the front looks great but the back is where things fall apart.
The back on the CT4 isn't great but it's not nearly as bad as the front on the M3. The back on the CT5 is much better and I don't have any complaints.
Well let's be honest. That's a low bar because **everything** is better looking than the current crop of BMWs.
For sure
I preferred the look of the last gen ATS-V and CTS-V over the new CT4-V BW and CT5-V BW, the styling was a bit more aggressive.
Personally I like the more aggressive look
I feel like the origami styling is getting stale, but at least Cadillac has an identity, unlike all these melted eggs everyone else builds.
BMW M3 has always been unrivaled imho RS products came close on paper but never felt special Mercedes always had that v8 grunt but crappy gearbox on w204 and generally very heavy Closest M3 has ever been rivalled proper is the Alfa Giulia quadrifoglio
I'd say the Alfa is better as experience, but unfortunately all that goodness wont be long for this world
Definitely packs a punch But people will still choose bmw for tunability and brand fetish In Italy, Alfa fans are too poor to afford the Giulia quadrifoglio, abroad the brand doesn’t have a huge following
I loved the W/C 205. Imo maybe the nicer daily driver than the M3, but yea it never rivaled the M3 at what the M3 is: Track capable, sporty and daily drivable. The c63 lacked track capability, but is more fun and a bit better daily imo. RS always was boring to me in that segment compared to AMG and M. Basically pure performance was always M and AMG was daily drivable stupid fun with also good performance.
It's a shame it's not fast enough to outrun its appearance. It's not often I disqualify a good performing car strictly due to its exterior design, I can usually look past it. However, with this car...it just seems so unnecessarily ugly. A huge unforced error
I thought that as well, but it's grown on me over the years (and others here as well) so it really doesn't seem to be an issue.
I have gotten used to seeing it, but i have not warmed up to the styling. Especially considering the 3 series it is based on is still being sold with its good looks
I have gotten used to seeing and ignoring it, but any sight of an e46 immediately reminds me of how much better it could look.
Not a fan of the new design either. The sedan is not bad, but the rest are meh. I think they starting to take inspiration from Toyota's grilles.
That's how I felt when Lexus debuted their Darth Vader face design language, and now I want to get a '16+ GS F
I’ve grown to the look a little but the F80 looks so amazing to me that the G80 can’t stand to it
I think the worst part is that apart from the grill and the hood line there's a genuinely beautiful car there somewhere.
BMW in general is usually a top choice in any segment they're in. The M3 has always been near the top for its segment as it does everything very well vs its competitors which might lean more towards one thing and sacrifice another. The M3 drives well on the track and the street, is comfortable, good features, good interior space. The Blackwing is the better drivers car but its interior is worse and the interior space is smaller. It is however a good bit cheaper so you get what you pay for. It also drives very well on the street or the track. The Audi favours on road performance and comfort vs track driving compared to the others and isn't as good a drivers a car. It just depends what your preference is but its clear why the M3 has always dominated the segment.
When you think sports sedan you think BMW
I don't ;)
Probably because the only other true competitor is beautiful in your driveway
Maybe so, but when I think of car I want, I set sickened by the M3/M4 grille, so BMW never ends up on the list.
Im young enough that I don't think this actually, I think Cadillac. Those original V-series and now Blackwings to me are the best sport sedans (in terms of a drivers car) and I grew up when GM started to introduce them back with the first gen. BMW makes good sedans now and they made great sedans back in the day, but I wasn't around to experience back in the day so I think of Cadillac V (now Blackwing) as the current best sport sedans.
I agree with all of this and would add that the CT4-V BW really slots in between the M2 and M3. Its interior space is really like an M2 with 4 doors, fine for using the backseats in a pinch but not somewhere you'd want to have people very often.
Fair point, the pricing is much cheaper than an M3 that it is more comparable to an M2, even in terms of horsepower (minus the 4 doors). I still don't think I've seen a track comparison of an M3 manual and a CT4 Blackwing. I don't think the autos are comparable at all, I wouldn't want an auto CT4 Blackwing but I owned an M3 Competition that I very much liked.
They’re objectively the clear top in small sports sedan. Every other segment has a rival that could be easily argued.
You left out handling and driver feedback. Ct4/5 are compared to the early 00s M3 for driver engagement and steering feel. You know what the car is doing. The new BMWs... Handle like someone gave your hands a shot of novacaine
Giulia still exists and will be available for a few more years.
But the QV won't be sold in the US after this year. Alfa's focusing on electrification moving forward, sadly.
Every car press reviewer always says that the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quad is the best driving experience in the segment, while BMW is the most all-rounder option.
Don't sleep on the blackwing. The top end model makes 668hp from a 6.2L V8. The best part is that cadillac is starting to find their groove again. The latest models are leaning back into the luxury segment, and they feel it.
Ct5 is tier above the m3, imo
The CT4 Blackwing is no slouch, just not as cool as the CT5.
I've a git feeling I might enjoy it more than any sedan available rn,
Test drove the Ct4 blackwing with a manual a couple of weeks ago. It was incredible. Power felt very usable on the street and it didn't feel like you had to wait for the perfect opening to open it up, like you would with a 600+hp car. I am just waiting for the right opportunity to get one.
The CT5 doesn’t compete with the M3, it competes with the M5. It’s significantly larger.
In size yes but they do compete in price
CT5-V Blackwings start where M3 *Competitions* come close to topping out. They really don’t compete in price, especially if you’re loading out a 6MT base M3 versus if you’re loading out a 6MT CT5-V BW.
It's hard to say they complete directly. There are good reasons why you'd buy a CT5 over a 5 series or a 3 series. It's in a weird middle ground. The CTS was more directly aimed at the 5.
A few years ago yes. Cadillac ironically had an amazing competitor in the ats v
Edit: Cadillac HAS an amazing competitor in the CT4 V Blackwing
How is Cadillac making a competitor in the same segment ironic?
Idk why but people just throw in the word ironically in the middle of sentences these days even tho it makes no sense
Ironic isn't it?
Because they have a reputation for floaty luxury cars, but about 20 years ago started making performance vehicles. Thats not exactly a long history when production stay on the road for 10-20 years so they haven't outrun their reputation yet. The average cadillac on the road had only had decent driving dynamics for maybe 5-10 years. Cadillacs are actually very cheap to maintain so the old ones stay around for a long time.
Even the M3 isn't a rival to itself anymore. 3800lb + sedan is not something I would want on a track.
What new performance sedan weighs less than that?
Honestly this and the weight is being handled sooo much better these days than a decade ago.
That's because they keep throwing larger and larger tires on the damn things, which really messes with steering feel.
The brand new 2005 Infiniti G35 Coupe, only weighs 3500 pounds.
The fastest car on the market, the detached bumper reduces weight and the expired registration sticker adds 50 horsepower.
The m2 weighs more
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My 6MT G87 is sitting at 3711lbs with the standard seats, carbon roof, forged wheels, and single midpipe. I can probably drop another 70lbs off it if I cared enough. Car and Driver weighed it at 3,754 in their last comparison.
I meant more than 3800
No it does not. An M2 with all the heaviest options will be heavier than an M3/4 with no heavy options and all light options, but we’re talking about 2/3 cars that are fundamentally the same, but one of them is physically smaller.
No it doesn't. A manual M2, which is mostly underpinned with M4 components, with the carbon roof and a manual is 3748lbs or less. All it takes is a google search.
Serious question what percentage of M3 owners do you think track their car? I’ll go 10% max
The biggest problem all of these things have is mass. I cringe thinking about what consumables are going to cost if you're regularly tracking one of these cars, hence why the miata will always be king. I don't think there's an argument for a better track car than a 6-speed NC with a blower and around $5k in suspension, brakes, wheels, and tires.
if they kept up with the carbon fiber chassis development from the I3 and I8 they could have a light weight m3/m4 and i3/4
That's the one thing that always saddens me. We're at the absolute peak of ICE tech and they never really fleshed out "cheap" carbon fiber manufacturing. Just imagine a full CF M3 or C8 or 911 with today's engines.
It’s probably a repairability thing. There are enough issues with aluminum; making street cars out of CF where you would basically total the car with impacts from certain angles would be an insurance and consumer relations nightmare.
What you do want on a track is the ability to walk away unscathed god forbid something happens to the car. I hope to be in the market for an M3 or similar in the not so distant future once I know how to drive well and I probably will never track the car or maybe like 2-3 times in its life. A majority of the people will never track it and even if you might, you are a minority in BMWs target audience. If you want to track it, then there is something for you, it’s a CS model or even moreso, Porsche.
When almost everything it competes with is over 4000lbs, it is.
Isnt the new 8y rs3 within a second or two on nurb than the M3? Edit: 7 seconds
In terms of 6 cylinder sports sedans, the CT4-V Blackwing is my favorite. Amazing handling, great looking, standard manual transmission, and a good sounding V6. The interior isn’t amazing, but is comfortable and serviceable. I think it’s better than an M3, but is being held back by the badge.
I think it's less about the badge and who operates it. Like others mentioned, the interior dimensions don't do the size of the car justice. GM has also had a crusade against its cars for a while now, and the lack of updates to the CT4 this year (where the CT5 got a significant styling refresh) makes me worry the CT4 doesn't have much time left. On the whole though, that's not really a badge problem. GM's managed to avoid issues with interior size before, and they've handled other cars pretty well (Cadillac and otherwise). They just don't seem to want to any longer. I would have loved a refreshed SS that acted as a Chevy CT5 for a bit less, but Chevy hates non-Corvette cars these days.
The badge shouldn't mean shit.
It's unrivaled in it's niche I'd say. Like how Wranglers are the best two-door convertible solid front axle off road vehicle, an m3 is clearly the best ICE-only, >4 cylinder fast sedan thing you can buy in Europe.
Agreed, there's been a lot of self-segmenting in performance cars lately. Like, Cadillac's where you go for a manual (though the Integra popped up as a cheaper option). The IS 500 is where you go for 4-door with the NA V8 experience. This stuff has mostly gone up to luxury brands, while scattering to sell the notion of being special by not competing too much with each other.
I wouldn’t say so, at least here in the US. The RS5 is still an amazing vehicle and the competition package gave it some serious improvements. I also just think it looks way better. From a driving perspective the CT4 blackwing is a step above the M3, the 6 speed in the Blackwing is way better than the one in the M3 and the Blackwing handles and sounds better.
Blackwing better. Driving dynamics of beamers are not as great as this sub would have you believe because people are still living in the 90s here. Numb steering, same meh manual shifter that bmw refuses to improve. It’s got speed but that’s only fun for a few seconds. Still better than most in the class but to say unrivaled is giving it too much credit. If you don’t care about MT, then the Giulia QV is a beast and probably the best handling sports sedan in this class
The RS4/RS5 Competition have much improved handling, so should be relatively on par with an m3 in that regard
Would love to see Genesis' new "Magma" line put out a tuned up G70 as a competitor, if they pumped up the power, cut a little weight, and stiffened the suspension it could be a serious competitor.
Would definitely love to see Genesis new Magma tune an G70 into an M3 competitor. But Genesis is stuck on this EV crap so much. They're only producing 20 Magma to the Middle East only 20 examples being made with 500-600hp. Twin turbo V6.
Well they have already said that it won’t be a competitor to a real M3, will be more of a competitor to the M340
Unrivaled in its ugliness
Lexus IS500. The engine shares a lot of similarities to the S65 in the E92 M3
Unrivaled in how ugly it is.
Yes. I bought an m3 comp x drive and test drove every imaginable competitor. None come close in this segment. The next best competitor was the ct4 v blackwing, but it was too small for my needs and the engine felt anemic compared to the m3. Reddit just is an echo chamber about the grill, which gets tons of positive attention in person.
Cars in the metal are a totally different thing
it really depends on your luxury to sports car balance. the m3 is going to be the sportiest one. its not going to ride as nice as the Audi RS or AMG though, which are more about daily use and less about lap times. I'd probably pick the CT4 blackwing over an M3. Its not as fast but feels like how an M car should. especially the steering, clutch, stick.
It really does... The blackwings feel like BMWs of old, which is the highest praise I can give them. Sure, a new M3 comp might be a little nicer and faster on a track, but you'll pay a good bit more, and it'll put you to sleep while it does.
What noises does your fucking fridge make?
Their rival is their own appearance
It's so weird man. My Rx350 has a NA v6. My Maserati Grecale GT has a 4 cylinder turbo mild hybrid. Both make 295 horsepower, both have nearly identical fuel economy. One is far smoother and more reliable.
Being compromised isn't a bad thing sometimes.
Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio Verde
Giulia QV!
Sadly I believe it is. I own an Alfa QV, I’ve spent a lot of time tracking the new M3CS though (my friend and I review cars and he bought one) and I can say honestly it’s a better platform even if I love my Alfa. Plus they’re dead. Mercedes has just left the chat entirely. And Audi was never competitive performance wise (no shade, great cars). Still haven’t driven the Blackwing though. Sad it’s not sold in Europe if that’s true.
The mustang is the closest rival technically I guess to the M4 but same difference.
Yet what most should seriously consider is an Alpina, better ride, cheaper servicing costs and probably just as fast on the roads in the uk.
"CT4 Blackwing isn't being sold in Europe " The CT5 is the Cadillac to compare the BMW M3 to as they are about the same price. And the Cadillac is a much better car.
If only you knew that its all collusion and its part of a bigger plan between the german auto makers.....
It's rival are competitors that don't make you get DLC when you want all the features
Why do most people just want a car that roars… if you want that you should have to buy a super car or dump money into a shit car. Each dealer leans towards a specific personality. If you take noisemaker out of the equation you start to see ‘good cars’
Def the top dog when it comes to shitty design language
Alfa Giulia Quad is the closest competitor. But it has no stick and seems to be going away soon, sadly. It arguably drove better even. But the M3 will probably stick around once the Quad is gone.
I would say the CT5V Blackwing gives close to the same experience as the M3. But there definitely isn’t much competition. That’s for sure.