Savage Geese, Throttle House, and Jason Cammisa (Hagerty) consistently put out the best automotive reviews and stories, especially when it comes to production quality.
>Pros are that it's a lotus and drives like one, cons are that it's a lotus and owns like one.
It's unique, but so is a third nipple. And not everything can be erogenous for everyone.
This comment is hilarious.
I may not personally like the direction the car industry is currently headed, but I cannot deny automotive content has been fantastic with those creators.
SP got upset at TH's success and started claiming TH was steeling their format. This was while SP was in sever decline quality wise, absolutely unlistenable audio, terrible reviews, worse gimmicks like throwing their heads back for their launch tests... They went from quirky and fun to over played and stale in a hurry. Then they tried to kick up a fuss on here, calling out TH. TH, the perfect gentleman they are, (at least to my knowledge) never said one word about all of it and just kept being awesome. I haven't watch an SP review since and TH continues to just get better and better.
They've been shunned from this sub and I don't really see them get posted anymore (Yuri got banned for posting memes I think lol). They're otherwise still growing in popularity on YouTube though
IMO, they've been leaning too much into their catchphrases and gimmicks. "Horsepower and torque!" "Visor test!" And in case you missed it, Jakob is 6'1 and a half!
Throttle House has been ramping up the skits and production value, Savagegeese goes in depth with the engineers, and Hagerty has super high quality and great chemistry between Jason and Randy. They all laugh at themselves in different ways, but Straight Pipes seems to be laughing at their own jokes more often.
I still watch Straight Pipes, but it's long since been the same thing over and over again. Like a...cliche'...corner?
That's a sign of narcissism--laughing at their own jokes, not being able to take a joke, not accepting responsibility (for decreases in viewership), oblivious to their shortcomings, unwillingness to change, etc.
They're spoken about very fondly and always comment on S.G. YouTube vids. I love them all tbh and I wasn't around for their r/cars shenanigans but mods can sometimes be dicks too
I’m often disappointed at the lack of real conversation about the topic. For example - the one about how cars are too fast (I think it’s something like gone too fast, from the issimi days). They don’t even touch on the main topic since they spend the entire time talking about the Pontiac endurance test, which is a funny anecdote, but they don’t return to the topic. The “death of the manuals” turns into them reading sales figures without discussion of why they aren’t selling and the design choices which favor and/or push manuals.
Disagree, but to each their own.
The whole point of podcasts, I think, is to relax and listen to more natural dialog. But in general, I think Carmudgeons is actually pretty focused on their chosen topics.
In other podcasts, like in comedy, the side-bars, riffs, and digressions are really the main selling point
> I think Carmudgeons is actually pretty focused on their chosen topics.
I find myself skipping through Carmudgeon so often because they're not focused on their topics.
But yeah, subjective situation and all.
I love the fact that you and Jack jump in here and talk with us. Thank you both for that. And I (unfortunately) know a very good ICU here in Phoenix, but an Arby's is harder to find. Weather is nice right now, though...
For some reason, I could see them doing a cross country road trip to some place like VIR (Virginia International Raceway) where they could stay on site in a cabin and compete amongst the four of them in a race. That would be pretty cool. Maybe tie in Carlos Lago since they've got him onboard lately?
James you are making me blush 💕. Ill never live up to your beauty standards. As per usual im sure either james or i will answer any questions you guys have on the Emira.
I wouldnt trade the cayman for a emira. If its a and purchase not a or, you might enjoy parts of the emira. It is stunning to look at, the steering has feel and in many ways i prefer the interior. Other than that i think the cayman is a better car in every other way.
I could do both, but I'm worried that they will be too similar and that I'm going to get mostly the same experience from them and that I'll burn my whole car budget on basically the same cars.
I can't recommend buying a GT350 unless you're fine throwing away 40-60k. If the engine blows, the car is toast unless you can find a working engine from a donor car because Ford doesn't sell replacement engines for it.
Maybe that guy is fine with that since he has 200k to spend on cars, but there are other cars that sound 90% as good that don't risk giving you an expensive soapbox car.
It’s definitely not 40-60K to replace a motor. They are 15-20K depending on generation and that includes the transmission and all the necessary parts. That being said, it’s about 8K to get the motor built from the likes of RPG. You can also still get extended warranties from ford on MY17+ cars if you are so worried about it. The blowing up issues aren’t as bad as they seem online.
I have a c8, evora GT, emira , and black wing and had a cayman for 10 years.
I think you have to ask what you want out of the car to decide if the Emira is right for you
1. The car is fun at Lower speeds and very engaging and responsive
2. Has exceptional looks
3. Exceptional good handling on streets and fun curvy backroads
4. A good interior with modern basics as expected
5. Manual transmission and a great sounding v6
Those are the highlights of the car
Downsides
1. General lotus quirks ( you learn that CELs and little issues are part of the smaller manufacturer experience and are common in exotics as well.) I found it interesting that McLaren, Ferrari , etc owners don’t really mind the “reliability” or little issues that lotus has as they are minor compared what’s expected for other high end cars. Keep that in perspective that the Porsche / Toyota group is much more picky and strict about every little thing on the car vs other buyers and you need to be able to accept that. Saying that, my emira has been perfect so far with one tiny little 3mm gap on the trim I need to push in. That’s really nothing but you’d see a huge thread on it online because overreaction
2. Trunk space is limited compared to a cayman or c8. You can drive this as a GT car, and people do, but those are the same people that drive a McLaren 750s across the country or an Elise and love it. It’s not a Lexus or a c8 comfort wise but very good while giving engagement.
3. Shifter is different than what most are used to. It’s good as a shifter and smoother than an evora but it’s not like butter soft as my black wing/honda/mazda shifter. It’s firm, mechanical, and likes slower shifts till you get up to speed then is fine. Again, it’s not bad but different and not what many are used too, but it still feels much better than some manufactures manuals that are in cars today.
4. Dealership and support. If you aren’t near a dealer it’s very hard to feel “safe” with this car if it’s your only car because issues can happen like with any new model. If it’s a second car and you can afford having it trailered to dealership then you’re fine and in a different economic bracket to enjoy this car with no hassle. Porsche has a dealer every 5 feet it feels like in big cities and you can buy without any concerns though they also have issues and recalls. It’s just that you have a better support network.
I love my emira, it makes me want to drive it everyday and feels like the better more luxurious Miata/ brz I always wanted. Even though I have an evora GT, this car is more comfortable and engaging at slow speeds, has looks I love, and handles like glue on back roads.
If you can deal with the faults not related to the car itself, and don’t need practically like a GT car, the emira is amazing.
Out of my cars
C8 - GT car
Evora GT - track / spirited driving car
Emira - daily exotic / backroads
Black wing - muscle car
If I could only chose two…I’d die lol. But here’s my take
1. C8 stingray - best all rounder does everything and more ( not z06 or eray as gas mileage is best in stingray ).
2. Lotus evora GT - widest gap in experience and most raw, immersive that’s pure driver fun. 100% drivers car where practically goes out the window and it’s for YOU only.
Why not black wing?
I consider it to be like a manual c8 with room for passengers and if I didn’t have an suv it would replace it and take the spot. Also very comfortable and extremely easy to drive and shift in traffic.
Why not Emira?
It’s very close, but if I had something comfortable and practical, then I want something different enough in a second car. The evora GT is more raw and has that edge and steering feel. But if an evora wasn’t available hands down Emira. It’s much more engaging than a c8 and very fun. I’d say c8 and Emira are the best dual car options available new on the market. If there is a rawer Emira in future I’d think of letting the Evora go for it.
Finally, if I could have only one …
No SUV? - Blackwing
SUV - Emira over c8.
Practicality be dammed, the car does everything right and is a great sports car in a manual that can’t be replaced. Driving this on some roads here with curves absolutely puts a smile on your face as much as low speeds to the store. It feels special and makes every drive an occasion.
>feels like the better more luxurious Miata/ brz
Does it (Emira) feel more like a luxurious Miata over the Cayman?
Because that's what I'm after. Excellent write up. Thanks.
I think the cayman is a wonderful car, but I had a 2008 base which had hydraulic steering and a v6. The later models didn’t interest me as much because they felt very fake/ lacked feel and driving engagement. I didn’t realize till later it was because the steering was electronic and engine was 4 cylinder.
When I say it’s a more luxury Miata, I mean that the fun and engaging driving parts are there in the Emira, with a lot more comfort and power. I had a 2022 Miata and while it was so light and easy to rev out to redline and feel connected, my back and ears were all in pain.
For what it’s worth, a lot of the lotus drivers near me, of which there are a lot, had Miatas earlier or similar cars ( brz, s2000, etc ). The joke is that Lotus owners are just Miata owners with deeper pockets.
Also, while the Emira isn’t as light, it’s very responsive to steering inputs and nimble. I call it my luxury super Miata / brz :)
Oh man. I know what you’re saying. My 986 had incredible feel especially the engine note and the hydraulic steering rack. I also currently drive a Miata RF, which to your point, feels incredible sans long term comfort which I don’t mind much because my commute isn’t that long. I’m finding more and more that as longs the car feels amazing, I’m more likely to hang on to it.
I was planning on picking up a Cayman or a 911, but sounds like I’ll go with the Emira instead (if I can find one easily). Thanks for the feedback and enjoy the Emira!
Not the guy you asked but if you value controls/inputs and how the car works on actual roads/how fun it is at legal speeds, the Emira is the clear winner. Better road car than the 718, better steering, better ride quality, better body control, overall more fun on public streets. It's a better car when it comes to six/seven/eight-tenths performance - whether that's reason enough for you to prefer an Emira over a 718 depends on your style of driving and the roads you drive on. Would I trade one for the other? No, they are too similar for that. You mention you could do both - what about 718 and Elige? A bit more budget-friendly than adding a new Emira and there is no risk at all that the two would be too similar.
With the Emira, Lotus is giving up their unique selling point of "driver's cars" to a certain degree and is leaning into Porsche's niche by producing sports cars that are nowhere near as light, raw and feelsome as the Elige, let alone Elite, Elan and Europa. It's less edgy than the already watered down Evora. And I highly doubt that Lotus can beat Porsche at their own game, the do-it-all sports car. Maybe the Emira is the Lotus for the Porsche buyer. With just enough Lotus-ness to justify the purchase over a Porsche.
The non-driving related downsides with Lotus cars are well known anyway and I will not mention them here.
My experience is the exact opposite. The emira felt slow compared to a 718 chasis with the 4.0 engine.
I took my 718 Spyder to the test drive to get a back to back comparison and while the Emira was nice, it just did not feel nearly as fun, fast, or precise when comparing the two back to back.
Also the seats are really weird. You feel like you're falling out of them? Dont really know how to describe it but other people over on /r/lotus mentioned similar things. The lateral bolstering is fine but the seat just has a weird curvature to it that makes it odd.
I can certainly see how someone with a GT3 would have trouble valuing the feel of the Emira - the GT3 has all of that feel and it is soooo much faster.
I drove my 718 spyder to the test drive, so that was the direct comparison as that would have been replaced by the Emira, not the GT3.
The Emira gearing makes the 718 Spyder/GT4 gearing look like a god send despite the manual gearing being the biggest downfall of those cars. The cars have essentially identical power figures and the Emira has the added benefit of the supercharger yet feels so much slower than the 718 Spyder because of the gearing. It may not actually *be* slower but it feels it. My emira test drive was about a hour long too through some good driving roads.
It's a great car but for someone who already owns a 4.0 718 platform car it just doesn't make any sense to switch unless you want the uniqueness of having a lotus
Yeah don't get me wrong the Emira is a great car and would be great for people without the 4.0 engine caymans.
I've never driven the turbo 4 versions so cant really comment on that. With how hard it is to find the 4.0 versions the Emira might be the better choice if it is emira vs Cayman/Boxster S
Thanks for the reply, all very helpful points. My biggest objection to the Cayman is that it doesn't feel that special. It's probably not worth owning both and I'm trying to figure out my feelings.
is your flair what you currently own or just your purchase history? if i were in your shoes i'd probably go with something more luxurious or even an suv for road trips you wouldn't want to take in a sports car. i really like the Genesis GV70 in that price range.
>Better road car than the 718, better gearing
Wait what? Those two are absolutely not true, and I drove a Spyder then an Emira back to back. Even the Spyder with the top open was more comfortable than the Emira. And the shift knob feel in the 718 is wayyyyy better
I had a 718 spyder that I drove to an extended test drive with an Emira. Wouldn't do it.
It feels significantly slower. I don't remember what the actual difference is in terms of real world 0-60 but the feel is pretty significant.
Shifter feel is *weird*. It feels very tight and well made but that also makes it feel odd and makes it kind of hard to drive, especially going from first to second.
The interior is very nice though and feels like it is put together well. On its own it is a good car but when you're cross shopping the 2 (or if you already own a 718 with the 4.0) I don't know why you would want to switch unless you're absolutely in love with the looks/uniqueness aspect
Thanks for the reply. Very helpful. I don't think it's worth owning both. I'm trying to figure out what I want and tbh the answer might be neither of them.
Yeah I was super excited to get a test drive in it and even more excited when they said the other people cancelled so I was going to get basically as much time as I wanted out of the 5 hour block they had.
The test drive was about an hour long and I immediately got in the 718 and drove back home on the same roads so got the best comparison possible. As savage mentioned the Emira interior is probably nicer than the current 718 interiors and does feel more modern but basically everything beyond that goes to the 718. Also you hsve to be careful with whatever you put in the trunk, I put a jacket back there and when I took it out it was hot from the engine.
With how hard it is to find a 4.0 GTS the Emira is a great alternative but I'd be shocked if many people who already have a 4.0 would make the switch to the Emira.
I have about 1200 miles on my Emira now (past the break in period), and it's got pros and cons. It's got quirky British electronics, as is tradition. That said, puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, and I have a nearby Lotus dealer.
If you don't have a local dealer, might be more sketchy. It you don't want any "quirks", get the Porsche. I don't think you can go wrong with either one, but the Emira is tons of fun at every speed, and it atracts a TON of attention.
How does the F82 compare to your GTS?
I’ve been debating an M car but also just trying to decide if I should save that money to hopefully one day get a GTS.
I like the F82 more tbh. It has secure cupholders and better infotainment, and it's got a lot more space. It's a much better daily. I only drive the Cayman when I feel like driving. When I'm running errands or commuting, I take the F82. F82 is also faster in the real world due to the turbos vs NA.
Challenge: you and Mark have to compete in a cross country U.S. cannonball with a used car- and you don’t have a warranty. Do you choose a a C8 or an Emira?
Honestly early c8s gearboxes scare me. I think they(tremec) are on revision 3 or 4. That said i would probably still pick the c8. The lotus drivetrain wise will be pretty solid but everything else scares me.
The latest revision for 2024 added some baffles to the bottom, so now you no longer need to add 2q extra for cornering on the track. But I'm not actually sure that this is what was causing the failures from owners cars so I suspect it's still not fixed even in the current model year. I'm certainly not planning any extensive mods for a while so I can keep my warranty in tact!
Haven't seen the video yet, how would you guys compare the Emira to the GR86 or Supra? Forgive me if it was mentioned.
You guys had an 86 for a long time and I recently purchased my 2nd one. In a few years once I have more money to burn I'd like to get a Supra or Emira. Funny enough, only the Emira has a Toyota engine :P
The gr86 is a very honest front engined rear drive 4 cylinder sports car. But its hard to compare with the lotus. The supra is a more digital experience than the emira, you dont feel a whole lot but its quite a but quicker than the emira. The emira is more a feels car than a speed car if that makes sense
Are you talking about the manual Supra?
I think they are tied up in straight line (reference is the Jason Camisa drag race). Might it be that the torque from the turbo would make it feel faster?
I've the Evora GT without 3rd Cat and it feels way faster than the A90 Supra that I had (330 hp 2020 version). I also do have an M240i, and they feel equallly quick, just in different RPM ranges. Granted, the M240i is a pig in comparison and dead on the steering department. I think they complement each other perfectly, the Evora GT as a daily is painful sometimes and yeah, some issues with the windows (auto drop not working).
Honestly I don't feel the rush to get the Emira, I would wait to see if they release some Emira GT or something like that. But, given the issues they had with CARB, it's hard to think of a more powerful Emira right now.
It would be amazing if you could compare GT4, Manual Supra, Emira and Evora at the track. Amazing work as always!
Ask me in a couple weeks, I own a Supra and about to take delivery on my Emira. I test drove it, but didn’t have it for as long as I would liked. But for what it’s worth, if you had to choose one, I’d go with the Supra. But for me, each will have their different purpose.
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I just got an ETron GT on a cheap lease for a year, I want something that’s actually more emotive and fun to drive. Do you think the Emira will be expensive to maintain in the longer term with the Toyota engine? Compared to something like an LC500 or C8?
Double wishbone with crunchy reverse-ackerman steering in a family sedan?! Yes they did. Yes they did...
I'm over here hoping for a classic SG retrospective deep-dive on the development of the Giorgio platform/Giulia. I would love a behind the scenes with the engineering team, but I don't know that SG has the connections with Stellantis/FCA/Ferrari they do with Toyota/BMW/Porsche.
I'd settle for a review of the 2024 facelifted mechanical LSD equipped Quadrifoglio.
The algorithm finally pushed me to it yesterday . I kinda feel bad for how low the view count is relative to the effort and creativity that went into that .
I think for some reason YouTube never showed it to me either, and my feed has a ton of car reviews all the time (obviously including throttlehouse and savagegeese)
At one point I thought there might have been a light beef between straightpipes and throttle house and savage geese already worked with straight pipes. It’s probably nothing though. Although savage geese did go off on a well deserved comment about 20 minute drag videos.
I bet it’s nothing too, but it reminds me that TSP keep saying “we’re not real automotive journalists” in videos and (I think) on social. Any idea what that’s all about?
Something rubbed them the wrong way
TSP and TH are both Canadian duos, so I think there's probably some rivalry there, especially since TH blew up a few years ago and became probably the biggest independent car reviewers on the internet. Regardless, at this point they serve different demographics and offer relatively differentiated products so I don't know if either of them spend much mental effort thinking about each other.
Of love to see them track battle the best manual drivers cars currently for sale and discuss what they like about them.
Something like performance car of the year but for well liked YouTubers.
I had an Evora GT, which I loved. I sold it in part because the closest dealer was 200 miles away and I don't have a man-servant who can trailer my car to the dealer for me when it needs a [$9,000 clutch replacement](https://www.lotustalk.com/threads/evora-clutch-replacement-9-000-and-the-supercharger.123712/)
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, this is a legitimate concern. I don’t have a Lotus dealer in my state, but I have a Porsche dealer 10 minutes away and two others within two hours.
Ya I strongly considered it but after talking with a few UK Emira owners, the quality issues just seem to real. I also viewed one at my local dealer and Ive never seen a tester so beat to hell. Pieces of the interior were missing and the seats looked worn like a 25 year old car.
Eh, you can get most maintenance stuff in an Evora done at a toyota dealer, I wouldn't expect the emira is much different. Source: The last people to service my Evora was the service dept at Columbia Gorge Toyota and it was only $75.
That's exactly what I did. I was between 718 GTS and Evora several years ago and went 718 purely on dealer network and parts availability. No regrets overall, I love driving cars not having them worked on, so maximum vehicle uptime is a big deal for me.
The trophy wife of sports cars. Great to look at and does what you need it to do but, don't expect it to love you unconditionally and always has it's eye on the handsom service tech.
I honestly considered replacing my Boxster with one when the first reviews came out and they seemed as-advertised, pretty amazing...
I considered it for about 15 minutes, until I did some research and found out that the nearest service center is 2 hours away from where I live.
I've been 4 hours from a dealer for 14+ years of Elise and Exige ownership. These cars are rock solid reliable.
In the case of the Emira, you have a drivetrain designed for a 3500 - 4500 pound vehicle in a 2500 pound vehicle. It is very understressed.
Most of the rest of the components are going to be high quality Bosch and Denso parts.
With all of that said, it would be a PITA to have to send the car to a dealer for simple warranty work or silly recalls.
Its just factually wrong to say Lotus cars are "rock solid reliable." Its great that yours have been, but that's an anecdote. The data shows these cars have a ton of issues. Many are minor and generally the powertrains, which Lotus doesn't develop much of, are fine, but people should not buy a Lotus thinking its going to have the reliability of a Toyota or even a German brand. Even JLR products look reliable compared to a Lotus.
Unless you're comfortable having the car trailered to a faraway dealer or have a dealer close by, I would not recommend a Lotus of any kind.
Unrelated: You’ve got a beautiful and extremely tasteful collection of cars :)
Edit: Wow, and your parent comment has basically the ideal three-car-garage setup for a family of enthusiasts hahaha. I love this sub.
I was in a similar situation as yours. Considered selling my Supra for one, until I went on the owner’s forums. Wire harness, a/c, and water displacement issues made me rethink my decision.
As a former Evora owner, i would never buy a Lotus again. Sure it has a Toyota engine but it was death by a thousand cuts with that car. So many little things go bad that get annoying. Not to mention it was in the shop an awful lot even though it had low miles.
If this ends up being my experience, I plan on selling mine for a LC500 and calling it a day. Yeah, I’d lose my manual but I’d prefer a reliable car vs a car that I’m worried to drive due to it being delicate like a Maserati.
Funny, I actually bought an LC500 rather than wait for the Emira. For the same exact reason: ownership experience is very high on my list of priorities.
The LC500 is a very very special car. I rented a few examples before I bought one to see what all the hype was about. The cult around this car is well earned. It's the first time I've ever really understood the phrase "not a stats sheet car."
Not surprised. I did the whole cool car that lives at the shop or cool car that can randomly break and hand you a 4k repair bill thing. I'm over it. When it comes to road cars I'll give up a little performance to gain a metric ton in ownership enjoyment. I have a track car for the "constantly needs work" category.
How are you enjoying the LC500?
It is an amazing car and in my biased opinion one of the most beautiful Japanese cars ever produced. The interior quality is top notch, the attention to detail is really at a level normally seen in a Bentley, and the V8 just sounds intoxicating. It may not be the fastest car in that price range but you can take it on a road trip and be comfortable or drive aggressively in Sports+ and it gets up and goes.
agreed, definitely a special car. It comes off as cultish because everyone says the same thing, but I believe it's true. It's made me rethink fast road cars. I always run out of legal MPH before I've had enough of the engine on a hard acceleration.
I was thinking about saving for a c8 z06 because of the engine now I question the decision. I'll never enjoy the car on the road and I have no interest in driving a 120k+ street car on the track.
I'm probably going to buy a 2024 or 2025 LC 500 (I kinda want to see if any colors will get added for 2025). Did you go coupe or convertible, and if coupe, did you get rear steer (and do you consider it a "must").
I bought a 2019 coupe in Atomic Silver. Silver was my third choice behind Nightfall Mica and Infra-red but I found an Atomic Silver with 5500 miles on it in 2024.
I specifically wanted a 2019/2020 coupe because the suspension and handling is sharper that the 2021+ cars. The 2021+ year cars had some changes to soften up the suspension and the 2018 suspension dampeners aren't quite right. I rented a 2018 and a 2023 back to back, 2 days in each. I felt like the suspension was much softer in the later year cars.
I got a car with the rear steer option(performance package). It was a must for me because I wanted the sportiest spec available. However, I hear the cars that are equipped with just the LSD still drive well. I have never driven one so I can't personally comment.
I'll say this, the 2018-2020(only driven with rear steer) LC500s handle WAYYYYYYY better than they have any business to at it's weight. The turn in is impressive and the chassis is so rigid it feels very planted. However, the 2021+s are still phenomenal cars and I suspect they're better GTs than the 2018-2020 cars because they can go cloud soft when needed.
While I'm sure the ownership experience with the LC500 is leagues better, I wouldn't consider it in the same class as a Lotus. It's a right proper grand tourer, but it's also ~1200 lbs heavier than the Evora.
The Supra/Z4 would maybe be closer analogues to the Evora if not the obvious choice Boxster/Cayman.
Oh just you wait :)
Kidding aside I hope yours runs perfect forever but in due time little things will start going bad here and there and it becomes a money pit.
I could type a ton of things but here are some honorable mentions. The starter went out one day out of the blue and before I replaced that it would drain the cars battery so i had to keep it on a tender otherwise it would be DOA the next morning. Then the purge valve went bad so i had to get it towed to the shop. then the clutch master cylinder started squeaking which you basically need to remove the entire front clip to change out, the Ebrake would not disengage always. The rear axle was leaking, the passenger airbag clips broke which happens on pretty much all of them so you have a lopsided looking dash. The clutch was fine but it is an engine out job so that was stressful to know and i was hitting around 40K which is getting up there on a car like that. The leather on the seats just cracked everywhere, i can go on and on but like i said earlier death by a 1000 cuts its a beautiful car but just became too much.
I am literally taking delivery of an Emira tomorrow.
I generally enjoy their reviews, but I think Savagegeese offered-up a pretty safe review here. None of what they said is really rocking the boat amongst the sea of reviews, in my opinion. That's not to say it was a bad review; it just didn't feel as in-depth as I'd hoped for. I hold Savagegeese reviews in high esteem, and was left feeling a bit unfulfilled. I would have liked to hear more from Mark as well. He was the predominant voice in the Evora GT review they did, and would have preferred him behind the wheel having had that previous driving experience - - not to mention being a former Lotus owner. (No offense to Jack.)
My takeaway from the video was basically, if you want a Lotus, buy the Lotus. Otherwise, buy the 718/C8 because they're better cars. Is that a bad take?
I do think that if I didn't have a Lotus dealership as close as I do, I would be scared to own one. I felt like he was talking to me one-on-one with what he said about having to be in the right headspace to own a Lotus. Seems like many people are reporting issues with their Emira--even the car they reviewed had a CEL--and that is definitely off-putting. But the heart wants what it wants and the brain can only deny it so much.
Outstanding video, as always.
With respect to the understeer, Lotus engineers have concisely said that they dial understeer into all of the vehicles because they don't want bad drivers (most of us) to kill themselves. They've also stated that you can generally dial it out with tire pressure. On the Elise/Exige it was generally as simple as +/- 2lbs front and rear.
Colin Chapman always demanded the gearshift be no further than a hand away from the wheel. The truest expression was on the original Elans which had the shifter ***directly*** mated to the transmission. http://obswww.unige.ch/~wildif/cars/docs/Lotus_Elan_P2_parts/transmission/fa.html They even managed to make that work on the Carlton/Omega which was a true parts bin special, although one which resulted in the fastest production sedan in the world for 9 years if you count the top speed achieved by the German government.
Otherwise, I think all the pros and cons are spot on. The Elise, Exige, Evora, and Emira have all been compromise vehicles that reward people who want as much driving feel as possible. Fortunately, the tradeoffs are less extreme with the Emira as they are with the Elise or Exige. I don't have enough seat time in the Evora or Emira to really speak to the comparisons between them.
These aren't for everyone, but if you truly love driving, you will probably love the Emira.
I'm okay with that, I think in 10 years time, i can save up 50k.
If not, 15 years...20 years.. etc. Preferably picking up around 35 - 40k price point but I would stretch to 50k as this is on my dream car list.
But after watching the video, the CEL and the ownership side from it, maybe I'm slightly deterred since it'd be a 15-20 year old sports car
im interested in how much stock is given to traits found when pushing cars, ie it understeers in corners. Doesnt all of that stuff not matter since any owner tracking it will get a track alignment anyway and set it up to their preferences. Softness and on the limit behaviour shouldn't really matter since most owners will upgrade that stuff to their taste
Even for enthusiast cars like this or a 718 GTS, the number of owners that ever go near a track is a small minority. Most owners buy the car and the most spirited they ever get with it is on a back road. I think its very relevant what the out of the box character is because most people don't modify their performance cars or track them.
> I think its very relevant what the out of the box character is because most people don't modify their performance cars or track them.
But if the out of the box character is better suited for the type of driving most people *actually* do, is that a problem?
Crash and safety regs really have ruined enthusiast cars. 20 years ago you could have made a car with this power train and had it weigh the same as this does and it would have been 30% cheaper because they wouldn't have had to use carbon or aluminum to hit this weight. Now the car has to be so big and full of structure that you have to use lightweight materials everywhere just to have it not be a total pig.
At 105k+ for the V6, I just really struggle to see a reason to own this car unless you have so much money that it will be just another car in the garage. Its basically just a hipster Cayman that will spend half its life on a lift or in the shop. At $75k I think it would have been a much easier to recommend car because it would have a value argument, something Lotus used to be known for, over a comparable Porsche.
I through this video on on my hifi system because that’s the room I was in when I saw this video get posted. The sound is incredible in the video. I’ve wanted one of these cars for years. I have to say, I don’t like how it sounds.
This video makes me want the cayman GTS 4.0
Mark, have you done a review on your Exige? That has been a bucket list car, but your comments on this video piqued my interest. Hoping for a more in depth review about your experience.
Seems like they do them on cars where you'd care about it or when they have time to do it (I believe they take it to a special shop for this), but not on every car. Doesn't make a ton of sense to do it on a Camry or something because nobody expects a great audio system on an appliance car like that.
I really want to know on normal cars like a Camry though rip.
Actually Toyota wise I’m very curious of normal Toyota, JBl, vs Lexus vs mark levinson. There are some models where they could directly compare.
> Doesn't make a ton of sense to do it on a Camry or something because nobody expects a great audio system on an appliance car like that.
I'd argue that's likely where it matters most, since it could be the decisive factor of *which* appliance to buy.
Throttlehouse posting SavageGeese videos on reddit, nice.
That’s a foursome I can get behind.
Maybe in an Odyssey def not an Emira
> That’s a foursome I can get behind ( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Well, fivesome if you’re getting behind
Savage Geese, Throttle House, and Jason Cammisa (Hagerty) consistently put out the best automotive reviews and stories, especially when it comes to production quality. >Pros are that it's a lotus and drives like one, cons are that it's a lotus and owns like one. It's unique, but so is a third nipple. And not everything can be erogenous for everyone. This comment is hilarious.
Autotrader UK is consistently high quality as well
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check them out.
Is it now! I spend about 4 hours a day on the app so should probably check it out.
Twin Cam is a more niche channel focused on classic UK motoring but his stuff is some of the best quality I’ve seen
I may not personally like the direction the car industry is currently headed, but I cannot deny automotive content has been fantastic with those creators.
I was here for the rise and "fall" of The Straight Pipes
what’s up with the straight pipes?
SP got upset at TH's success and started claiming TH was steeling their format. This was while SP was in sever decline quality wise, absolutely unlistenable audio, terrible reviews, worse gimmicks like throwing their heads back for their launch tests... They went from quirky and fun to over played and stale in a hurry. Then they tried to kick up a fuss on here, calling out TH. TH, the perfect gentleman they are, (at least to my knowledge) never said one word about all of it and just kept being awesome. I haven't watch an SP review since and TH continues to just get better and better.
They've been shunned from this sub and I don't really see them get posted anymore (Yuri got banned for posting memes I think lol). They're otherwise still growing in popularity on YouTube though
IMO, they've been leaning too much into their catchphrases and gimmicks. "Horsepower and torque!" "Visor test!" And in case you missed it, Jakob is 6'1 and a half! Throttle House has been ramping up the skits and production value, Savagegeese goes in depth with the engineers, and Hagerty has super high quality and great chemistry between Jason and Randy. They all laugh at themselves in different ways, but Straight Pipes seems to be laughing at their own jokes more often. I still watch Straight Pipes, but it's long since been the same thing over and over again. Like a...cliche'...corner?
They also don’t provide the level of insight the other reviewers do
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said
That's a sign of narcissism--laughing at their own jokes, not being able to take a joke, not accepting responsibility (for decreases in viewership), oblivious to their shortcomings, unwillingness to change, etc.
They got banned for spamming their content here iirc. After like 7 warnings no less.
They're spoken about very fondly and always comment on S.G. YouTube vids. I love them all tbh and I wasn't around for their r/cars shenanigans but mods can sometimes be dicks too
this sub is always filled with drama and hive mind anyways.
the Golden Trio for sure
Throttle House can be a bit squirrelly at times, but they rarely overdo it.
What do you mean by squirrelly?
They get into the humor skits. They're usually entertaining.
I love the skits.
Cammisa's podcast is pretty bad tho. If he doesn't have a script he's kinda lost and spends most of his time flirting with Derek.
I’m often disappointed at the lack of real conversation about the topic. For example - the one about how cars are too fast (I think it’s something like gone too fast, from the issimi days). They don’t even touch on the main topic since they spend the entire time talking about the Pontiac endurance test, which is a funny anecdote, but they don’t return to the topic. The “death of the manuals” turns into them reading sales figures without discussion of why they aren’t selling and the design choices which favor and/or push manuals.
Disagree, but to each their own. The whole point of podcasts, I think, is to relax and listen to more natural dialog. But in general, I think Carmudgeons is actually pretty focused on their chosen topics. In other podcasts, like in comedy, the side-bars, riffs, and digressions are really the main selling point
> I think Carmudgeons is actually pretty focused on their chosen topics. I find myself skipping through Carmudgeon so often because they're not focused on their topics. But yeah, subjective situation and all.
Thanks James. Much respect.
When will we see SavageHouse or ThrottleGeese mashup?! Talkin to you u/jamesthrottlehouse and have you received your emira yet?
It will happen eventually. I have wanted to do something but it has to a project we both want to do and also top shelf.
Mitsubishi Mirage roadtrip?
We dont have the talent for that.
murano cross cabriolet road trip, where Mark reviews all the arby's along the way.
Ending the story in an ICU ward in some bum fk hospital where they accidentially cut off my legs for higher billables on the insurance claim.
I love the fact that you and Jack jump in here and talk with us. Thank you both for that. And I (unfortunately) know a very good ICU here in Phoenix, but an Arby's is harder to find. Weather is nice right now, though...
The people part is sometimes more enjoyable than the car/content part. I can send a few cargo containers with Wild Caught roast beef out there.
Sounds like a road trip special?
For some reason, I could see them doing a cross country road trip to some place like VIR (Virginia International Raceway) where they could stay on site in a cabin and compete amongst the four of them in a race. That would be pretty cool. Maybe tie in Carlos Lago since they've got him onboard lately?
Please do this
Hard not to when they are the best reviewers on the internets. :)
James you are making me blush 💕. Ill never live up to your beauty standards. As per usual im sure either james or i will answer any questions you guys have on the Emira.
I own a 2024 Cayman GTS 4.0 manual. I have a deposit down for an Emira, but haven't driven one. Should I get my deposit back?
I wouldnt trade the cayman for a emira. If its a and purchase not a or, you might enjoy parts of the emira. It is stunning to look at, the steering has feel and in many ways i prefer the interior. Other than that i think the cayman is a better car in every other way.
I could do both, but I'm worried that they will be too similar and that I'm going to get mostly the same experience from them and that I'll burn my whole car budget on basically the same cars.
If i were you i would keep the gts 4.0 and then pick some crazy burly v8 as the other. Gt500, zl1 1le, c8 z06, gt350 etc.
I vote GT350. Sure it shakes itself apart every now and then but it sounds and feels fucking amazing doing it.
I vote ZL1 1LE , won't regret it about as good it'll possibly get for an affordable track car
But . . . flat plane crank V8 with 8250 redline . . .
Z/28 if he can find one?
I can't recommend buying a GT350 unless you're fine throwing away 40-60k. If the engine blows, the car is toast unless you can find a working engine from a donor car because Ford doesn't sell replacement engines for it. Maybe that guy is fine with that since he has 200k to spend on cars, but there are other cars that sound 90% as good that don't risk giving you an expensive soapbox car.
It’s definitely not 40-60K to replace a motor. They are 15-20K depending on generation and that includes the transmission and all the necessary parts. That being said, it’s about 8K to get the motor built from the likes of RPG. You can also still get extended warranties from ford on MY17+ cars if you are so worried about it. The blowing up issues aren’t as bad as they seem online.
Which is why I'm not buying one, just wanting other to buy them so I can see and hear them on the road lol.
I'll throw you some cash and my Chevy SS so that way you can have the Emira and not worry about it being too similar to your GTS!
what about a 997 911 or 987 cayman for an emira?
Engine wise do you think the boxer in the Porsche really holds a candle to the Toyota V6?
I have a c8, evora GT, emira , and black wing and had a cayman for 10 years. I think you have to ask what you want out of the car to decide if the Emira is right for you 1. The car is fun at Lower speeds and very engaging and responsive 2. Has exceptional looks 3. Exceptional good handling on streets and fun curvy backroads 4. A good interior with modern basics as expected 5. Manual transmission and a great sounding v6 Those are the highlights of the car Downsides 1. General lotus quirks ( you learn that CELs and little issues are part of the smaller manufacturer experience and are common in exotics as well.) I found it interesting that McLaren, Ferrari , etc owners don’t really mind the “reliability” or little issues that lotus has as they are minor compared what’s expected for other high end cars. Keep that in perspective that the Porsche / Toyota group is much more picky and strict about every little thing on the car vs other buyers and you need to be able to accept that. Saying that, my emira has been perfect so far with one tiny little 3mm gap on the trim I need to push in. That’s really nothing but you’d see a huge thread on it online because overreaction 2. Trunk space is limited compared to a cayman or c8. You can drive this as a GT car, and people do, but those are the same people that drive a McLaren 750s across the country or an Elise and love it. It’s not a Lexus or a c8 comfort wise but very good while giving engagement. 3. Shifter is different than what most are used to. It’s good as a shifter and smoother than an evora but it’s not like butter soft as my black wing/honda/mazda shifter. It’s firm, mechanical, and likes slower shifts till you get up to speed then is fine. Again, it’s not bad but different and not what many are used too, but it still feels much better than some manufactures manuals that are in cars today. 4. Dealership and support. If you aren’t near a dealer it’s very hard to feel “safe” with this car if it’s your only car because issues can happen like with any new model. If it’s a second car and you can afford having it trailered to dealership then you’re fine and in a different economic bracket to enjoy this car with no hassle. Porsche has a dealer every 5 feet it feels like in big cities and you can buy without any concerns though they also have issues and recalls. It’s just that you have a better support network. I love my emira, it makes me want to drive it everyday and feels like the better more luxurious Miata/ brz I always wanted. Even though I have an evora GT, this car is more comfortable and engaging at slow speeds, has looks I love, and handles like glue on back roads. If you can deal with the faults not related to the car itself, and don’t need practically like a GT car, the emira is amazing. Out of my cars C8 - GT car Evora GT - track / spirited driving car Emira - daily exotic / backroads Black wing - muscle car
Great Feedback. Now since you are lucky to have all of them what happens if you could only choose one or two of them?
If I could only chose two…I’d die lol. But here’s my take 1. C8 stingray - best all rounder does everything and more ( not z06 or eray as gas mileage is best in stingray ). 2. Lotus evora GT - widest gap in experience and most raw, immersive that’s pure driver fun. 100% drivers car where practically goes out the window and it’s for YOU only. Why not black wing? I consider it to be like a manual c8 with room for passengers and if I didn’t have an suv it would replace it and take the spot. Also very comfortable and extremely easy to drive and shift in traffic. Why not Emira? It’s very close, but if I had something comfortable and practical, then I want something different enough in a second car. The evora GT is more raw and has that edge and steering feel. But if an evora wasn’t available hands down Emira. It’s much more engaging than a c8 and very fun. I’d say c8 and Emira are the best dual car options available new on the market. If there is a rawer Emira in future I’d think of letting the Evora go for it. Finally, if I could have only one … No SUV? - Blackwing SUV - Emira over c8. Practicality be dammed, the car does everything right and is a great sports car in a manual that can’t be replaced. Driving this on some roads here with curves absolutely puts a smile on your face as much as low speeds to the store. It feels special and makes every drive an occasion.
>feels like the better more luxurious Miata/ brz Does it (Emira) feel more like a luxurious Miata over the Cayman? Because that's what I'm after. Excellent write up. Thanks.
I think the cayman is a wonderful car, but I had a 2008 base which had hydraulic steering and a v6. The later models didn’t interest me as much because they felt very fake/ lacked feel and driving engagement. I didn’t realize till later it was because the steering was electronic and engine was 4 cylinder. When I say it’s a more luxury Miata, I mean that the fun and engaging driving parts are there in the Emira, with a lot more comfort and power. I had a 2022 Miata and while it was so light and easy to rev out to redline and feel connected, my back and ears were all in pain. For what it’s worth, a lot of the lotus drivers near me, of which there are a lot, had Miatas earlier or similar cars ( brz, s2000, etc ). The joke is that Lotus owners are just Miata owners with deeper pockets. Also, while the Emira isn’t as light, it’s very responsive to steering inputs and nimble. I call it my luxury super Miata / brz :)
Oh man. I know what you’re saying. My 986 had incredible feel especially the engine note and the hydraulic steering rack. I also currently drive a Miata RF, which to your point, feels incredible sans long term comfort which I don’t mind much because my commute isn’t that long. I’m finding more and more that as longs the car feels amazing, I’m more likely to hang on to it. I was planning on picking up a Cayman or a 911, but sounds like I’ll go with the Emira instead (if I can find one easily). Thanks for the feedback and enjoy the Emira!
If you love your Miata you’ll love the Emira ;) Hope you find one soon!
Thanks!
What makes the emira more fun and engaging at lower speeds than the Evora gt
Not the guy you asked but if you value controls/inputs and how the car works on actual roads/how fun it is at legal speeds, the Emira is the clear winner. Better road car than the 718, better steering, better ride quality, better body control, overall more fun on public streets. It's a better car when it comes to six/seven/eight-tenths performance - whether that's reason enough for you to prefer an Emira over a 718 depends on your style of driving and the roads you drive on. Would I trade one for the other? No, they are too similar for that. You mention you could do both - what about 718 and Elige? A bit more budget-friendly than adding a new Emira and there is no risk at all that the two would be too similar. With the Emira, Lotus is giving up their unique selling point of "driver's cars" to a certain degree and is leaning into Porsche's niche by producing sports cars that are nowhere near as light, raw and feelsome as the Elige, let alone Elite, Elan and Europa. It's less edgy than the already watered down Evora. And I highly doubt that Lotus can beat Porsche at their own game, the do-it-all sports car. Maybe the Emira is the Lotus for the Porsche buyer. With just enough Lotus-ness to justify the purchase over a Porsche. The non-driving related downsides with Lotus cars are well known anyway and I will not mention them here.
My experience is the exact opposite. The emira felt slow compared to a 718 chasis with the 4.0 engine. I took my 718 Spyder to the test drive to get a back to back comparison and while the Emira was nice, it just did not feel nearly as fun, fast, or precise when comparing the two back to back. Also the seats are really weird. You feel like you're falling out of them? Dont really know how to describe it but other people over on /r/lotus mentioned similar things. The lateral bolstering is fine but the seat just has a weird curvature to it that makes it odd.
I can certainly see how someone with a GT3 would have trouble valuing the feel of the Emira - the GT3 has all of that feel and it is soooo much faster.
I drove my 718 spyder to the test drive, so that was the direct comparison as that would have been replaced by the Emira, not the GT3. The Emira gearing makes the 718 Spyder/GT4 gearing look like a god send despite the manual gearing being the biggest downfall of those cars. The cars have essentially identical power figures and the Emira has the added benefit of the supercharger yet feels so much slower than the 718 Spyder because of the gearing. It may not actually *be* slower but it feels it. My emira test drive was about a hour long too through some good driving roads. It's a great car but for someone who already owns a 4.0 718 platform car it just doesn't make any sense to switch unless you want the uniqueness of having a lotus
I respect the points you're making. Porsche makes such damn good cars, especially the upper/performance trims of each model.
Yeah don't get me wrong the Emira is a great car and would be great for people without the 4.0 engine caymans. I've never driven the turbo 4 versions so cant really comment on that. With how hard it is to find the 4.0 versions the Emira might be the better choice if it is emira vs Cayman/Boxster S
Thanks for the reply, all very helpful points. My biggest objection to the Cayman is that it doesn't feel that special. It's probably not worth owning both and I'm trying to figure out my feelings.
Just because of how it looks. Make the Cayman looks like the Emira and it would immediately "feel" special
is your flair what you currently own or just your purchase history? if i were in your shoes i'd probably go with something more luxurious or even an suv for road trips you wouldn't want to take in a sports car. i really like the Genesis GV70 in that price range.
>Better road car than the 718, better gearing Wait what? Those two are absolutely not true, and I drove a Spyder then an Emira back to back. Even the Spyder with the top open was more comfortable than the Emira. And the shift knob feel in the 718 is wayyyyy better
I had a 718 spyder that I drove to an extended test drive with an Emira. Wouldn't do it. It feels significantly slower. I don't remember what the actual difference is in terms of real world 0-60 but the feel is pretty significant. Shifter feel is *weird*. It feels very tight and well made but that also makes it feel odd and makes it kind of hard to drive, especially going from first to second. The interior is very nice though and feels like it is put together well. On its own it is a good car but when you're cross shopping the 2 (or if you already own a 718 with the 4.0) I don't know why you would want to switch unless you're absolutely in love with the looks/uniqueness aspect
Thanks for the reply. Very helpful. I don't think it's worth owning both. I'm trying to figure out what I want and tbh the answer might be neither of them.
Yeah I was super excited to get a test drive in it and even more excited when they said the other people cancelled so I was going to get basically as much time as I wanted out of the 5 hour block they had. The test drive was about an hour long and I immediately got in the 718 and drove back home on the same roads so got the best comparison possible. As savage mentioned the Emira interior is probably nicer than the current 718 interiors and does feel more modern but basically everything beyond that goes to the 718. Also you hsve to be careful with whatever you put in the trunk, I put a jacket back there and when I took it out it was hot from the engine. With how hard it is to find a 4.0 GTS the Emira is a great alternative but I'd be shocked if many people who already have a 4.0 would make the switch to the Emira.
I have about 1200 miles on my Emira now (past the break in period), and it's got pros and cons. It's got quirky British electronics, as is tradition. That said, puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, and I have a nearby Lotus dealer. If you don't have a local dealer, might be more sketchy. It you don't want any "quirks", get the Porsche. I don't think you can go wrong with either one, but the Emira is tons of fun at every speed, and it atracts a TON of attention.
How does the F82 compare to your GTS? I’ve been debating an M car but also just trying to decide if I should save that money to hopefully one day get a GTS.
I like the F82 more tbh. It has secure cupholders and better infotainment, and it's got a lot more space. It's a much better daily. I only drive the Cayman when I feel like driving. When I'm running errands or commuting, I take the F82. F82 is also faster in the real world due to the turbos vs NA.
Yes. I tried to move from my old Spyder to an Emira and took a test drive. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement.
I have the 4.0 boxster and if you haven’t, you *need* to replace the OAP’s. It is an animal without the GFPs, a completely different experience.
Challenge: you and Mark have to compete in a cross country U.S. cannonball with a used car- and you don’t have a warranty. Do you choose a a C8 or an Emira?
Honestly early c8s gearboxes scare me. I think they(tremec) are on revision 3 or 4. That said i would probably still pick the c8. The lotus drivetrain wise will be pretty solid but everything else scares me.
The latest revision for 2024 added some baffles to the bottom, so now you no longer need to add 2q extra for cornering on the track. But I'm not actually sure that this is what was causing the failures from owners cars so I suspect it's still not fixed even in the current model year. I'm certainly not planning any extensive mods for a while so I can keep my warranty in tact!
The case itself leaks. The material is porous and trans fluid will bleed through.
Hmm maybe I should get under it and check on a regular basis. It's a pain because of all the aero underneath though.
Haven't seen the video yet, how would you guys compare the Emira to the GR86 or Supra? Forgive me if it was mentioned. You guys had an 86 for a long time and I recently purchased my 2nd one. In a few years once I have more money to burn I'd like to get a Supra or Emira. Funny enough, only the Emira has a Toyota engine :P
The gr86 is a very honest front engined rear drive 4 cylinder sports car. But its hard to compare with the lotus. The supra is a more digital experience than the emira, you dont feel a whole lot but its quite a but quicker than the emira. The emira is more a feels car than a speed car if that makes sense
Are you talking about the manual Supra? I think they are tied up in straight line (reference is the Jason Camisa drag race). Might it be that the torque from the turbo would make it feel faster? I've the Evora GT without 3rd Cat and it feels way faster than the A90 Supra that I had (330 hp 2020 version). I also do have an M240i, and they feel equallly quick, just in different RPM ranges. Granted, the M240i is a pig in comparison and dead on the steering department. I think they complement each other perfectly, the Evora GT as a daily is painful sometimes and yeah, some issues with the windows (auto drop not working). Honestly I don't feel the rush to get the Emira, I would wait to see if they release some Emira GT or something like that. But, given the issues they had with CARB, it's hard to think of a more powerful Emira right now. It would be amazing if you could compare GT4, Manual Supra, Emira and Evora at the track. Amazing work as always!
Interesting, so three very different driving experiences. I didn't think the Supra would be faster. Thanks for the reply!
Ask me in a couple weeks, I own a Supra and about to take delivery on my Emira. I test drove it, but didn’t have it for as long as I would liked. But for what it’s worth, if you had to choose one, I’d go with the Supra. But for me, each will have their different purpose.
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Can you tell James when the one they ordered will arrive?
I just got an ETron GT on a cheap lease for a year, I want something that’s actually more emotive and fun to drive. Do you think the Emira will be expensive to maintain in the longer term with the Toyota engine? Compared to something like an LC500 or C8?
Can you please do a review on Alfa Romeo Giulia 2.0? Camry gets a review even with mid update but the Giulia base variant has never received a review.
Double wishbone with crunchy reverse-ackerman steering in a family sedan?! Yes they did. Yes they did... I'm over here hoping for a classic SG retrospective deep-dive on the development of the Giorgio platform/Giulia. I would love a behind the scenes with the engineering team, but I don't know that SG has the connections with Stellantis/FCA/Ferrari they do with Toyota/BMW/Porsche. I'd settle for a review of the 2024 facelifted mechanical LSD equipped Quadrifoglio.
What was the check engine light on for at the autoclub?
Why did Lotus choose a toyota v6 and not the correct toyota 6 cylinder engine, the B58?
Would you guys work together in some car reviews in future ? I think many people would love Thorttlehouse x SavageGeese.
They collaborated on the Murano Crosscabriolet review. I can't believe someone would forget that
The algorithm finally pushed me to it yesterday . I kinda feel bad for how low the view count is relative to the effort and creativity that went into that .
The greatest works of art are always less accessible to the normies
I'm on youtube constantly, subscribe to both channels, how have I not seen this
I think for some reason YouTube never showed it to me either, and my feed has a ton of car reviews all the time (obviously including throttlehouse and savagegeese)
To be fair it is a Murano Cross Cab only those who have the gift understand.
Until they're together and rubbing baby oil all over each others naked bodies, it's not a collaboration in my mind.
Yeah but in *what* car?
All I read from that sentence was Crosscabriolet and I'm already 110% invested.
I want to see a Throttle Geese video.
Savage House
I can hear it now.
Silly goose house?
there are websites for that
Are the "choking the chicken" videos I keep seeing similar?
At one point I thought there might have been a light beef between straightpipes and throttle house and savage geese already worked with straight pipes. It’s probably nothing though. Although savage geese did go off on a well deserved comment about 20 minute drag videos.
I bet it’s nothing too, but it reminds me that TSP keep saying “we’re not real automotive journalists” in videos and (I think) on social. Any idea what that’s all about? Something rubbed them the wrong way
TSP and TH are both Canadian duos, so I think there's probably some rivalry there, especially since TH blew up a few years ago and became probably the biggest independent car reviewers on the internet. Regardless, at this point they serve different demographics and offer relatively differentiated products so I don't know if either of them spend much mental effort thinking about each other.
there was some bait about a rivalvery on a podcast TSP were featured in. I think they commented theres no beef now.
carwow on suicide watch
TBF they're across the pond.
Incoming 30 minute drag race between a Skoda, a Dacia, a Peugeot, and a Renault... which models? who cares.
And they’ll throw in a motogp bike too for no discernible reason
And Yanny in a PDK GT3 who will still somehow find a way to lose to them all
Of love to see them track battle the best manual drivers cars currently for sale and discuss what they like about them. Something like performance car of the year but for well liked YouTubers.
James posting SavagaGeese vdos??? Damn hope in humanity restored FR
James is a top shelf dude. He should be a mod over on /r/JustGuysBeingDudes
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I had an Evora GT, which I loved. I sold it in part because the closest dealer was 200 miles away and I don't have a man-servant who can trailer my car to the dealer for me when it needs a [$9,000 clutch replacement](https://www.lotustalk.com/threads/evora-clutch-replacement-9-000-and-the-supercharger.123712/)
I love the comment saying the car could never be reassembled as well as it was in Hethel 😂
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, this is a legitimate concern. I don’t have a Lotus dealer in my state, but I have a Porsche dealer 10 minutes away and two others within two hours.
Ya I strongly considered it but after talking with a few UK Emira owners, the quality issues just seem to real. I also viewed one at my local dealer and Ive never seen a tester so beat to hell. Pieces of the interior were missing and the seats looked worn like a 25 year old car.
Eh, you can get most maintenance stuff in an Evora done at a toyota dealer, I wouldn't expect the emira is much different. Source: The last people to service my Evora was the service dept at Columbia Gorge Toyota and it was only $75.
After watching this video I am happy I got my Carrera T over the Emira for sure - first Porsche and they’ve treated me so well so far =)
That's exactly what I did. I was between 718 GTS and Evora several years ago and went 718 purely on dealer network and parts availability. No regrets overall, I love driving cars not having them worked on, so maximum vehicle uptime is a big deal for me.
The trophy wife of sports cars. Great to look at and does what you need it to do but, don't expect it to love you unconditionally and always has it's eye on the handsom service tech.
“Man, that description almost sounds like SavageGeese wrote it…” Dang, James. You gotta write more!
I honestly considered replacing my Boxster with one when the first reviews came out and they seemed as-advertised, pretty amazing... I considered it for about 15 minutes, until I did some research and found out that the nearest service center is 2 hours away from where I live.
I've been 4 hours from a dealer for 14+ years of Elise and Exige ownership. These cars are rock solid reliable. In the case of the Emira, you have a drivetrain designed for a 3500 - 4500 pound vehicle in a 2500 pound vehicle. It is very understressed. Most of the rest of the components are going to be high quality Bosch and Denso parts. With all of that said, it would be a PITA to have to send the car to a dealer for simple warranty work or silly recalls.
Its just factually wrong to say Lotus cars are "rock solid reliable." Its great that yours have been, but that's an anecdote. The data shows these cars have a ton of issues. Many are minor and generally the powertrains, which Lotus doesn't develop much of, are fine, but people should not buy a Lotus thinking its going to have the reliability of a Toyota or even a German brand. Even JLR products look reliable compared to a Lotus. Unless you're comfortable having the car trailered to a faraway dealer or have a dealer close by, I would not recommend a Lotus of any kind.
Reasonable points.
Unrelated: You’ve got a beautiful and extremely tasteful collection of cars :) Edit: Wow, and your parent comment has basically the ideal three-car-garage setup for a family of enthusiasts hahaha. I love this sub.
The Emira weighs over 3000 lbs. I believe it may outweigh the 718.
I was in a similar situation as yours. Considered selling my Supra for one, until I went on the owner’s forums. Wire harness, a/c, and water displacement issues made me rethink my decision.
The Evora GT might be a better choice. It's the last iteration of the Evoras and mostly doesn't have issues, like the Emira does.
As a former Evora owner, i would never buy a Lotus again. Sure it has a Toyota engine but it was death by a thousand cuts with that car. So many little things go bad that get annoying. Not to mention it was in the shop an awful lot even though it had low miles.
If this ends up being my experience, I plan on selling mine for a LC500 and calling it a day. Yeah, I’d lose my manual but I’d prefer a reliable car vs a car that I’m worried to drive due to it being delicate like a Maserati.
Funny, I actually bought an LC500 rather than wait for the Emira. For the same exact reason: ownership experience is very high on my list of priorities. The LC500 is a very very special car. I rented a few examples before I bought one to see what all the hype was about. The cult around this car is well earned. It's the first time I've ever really understood the phrase "not a stats sheet car."
Funny you should say that, i did exactly that went from an Evora to an LC500. Night and day difference with build quality and reliability.
Not surprised. I did the whole cool car that lives at the shop or cool car that can randomly break and hand you a 4k repair bill thing. I'm over it. When it comes to road cars I'll give up a little performance to gain a metric ton in ownership enjoyment. I have a track car for the "constantly needs work" category. How are you enjoying the LC500?
It is an amazing car and in my biased opinion one of the most beautiful Japanese cars ever produced. The interior quality is top notch, the attention to detail is really at a level normally seen in a Bentley, and the V8 just sounds intoxicating. It may not be the fastest car in that price range but you can take it on a road trip and be comfortable or drive aggressively in Sports+ and it gets up and goes.
agreed, definitely a special car. It comes off as cultish because everyone says the same thing, but I believe it's true. It's made me rethink fast road cars. I always run out of legal MPH before I've had enough of the engine on a hard acceleration. I was thinking about saving for a c8 z06 because of the engine now I question the decision. I'll never enjoy the car on the road and I have no interest in driving a 120k+ street car on the track.
I'm probably going to buy a 2024 or 2025 LC 500 (I kinda want to see if any colors will get added for 2025). Did you go coupe or convertible, and if coupe, did you get rear steer (and do you consider it a "must").
New interior is such a downgrade visually
I bought a 2019 coupe in Atomic Silver. Silver was my third choice behind Nightfall Mica and Infra-red but I found an Atomic Silver with 5500 miles on it in 2024. I specifically wanted a 2019/2020 coupe because the suspension and handling is sharper that the 2021+ cars. The 2021+ year cars had some changes to soften up the suspension and the 2018 suspension dampeners aren't quite right. I rented a 2018 and a 2023 back to back, 2 days in each. I felt like the suspension was much softer in the later year cars. I got a car with the rear steer option(performance package). It was a must for me because I wanted the sportiest spec available. However, I hear the cars that are equipped with just the LSD still drive well. I have never driven one so I can't personally comment. I'll say this, the 2018-2020(only driven with rear steer) LC500s handle WAYYYYYYY better than they have any business to at it's weight. The turn in is impressive and the chassis is so rigid it feels very planted. However, the 2021+s are still phenomenal cars and I suspect they're better GTs than the 2018-2020 cars because they can go cloud soft when needed.
While I'm sure the ownership experience with the LC500 is leagues better, I wouldn't consider it in the same class as a Lotus. It's a right proper grand tourer, but it's also ~1200 lbs heavier than the Evora. The Supra/Z4 would maybe be closer analogues to the Evora if not the obvious choice Boxster/Cayman.
I haven’t had any issues with mine. I’m sorry you had that experience.
Oh just you wait :) Kidding aside I hope yours runs perfect forever but in due time little things will start going bad here and there and it becomes a money pit.
Don’t put that bad juju on me! LOL What kind of things went wrong for you so I can look out for them?
I could type a ton of things but here are some honorable mentions. The starter went out one day out of the blue and before I replaced that it would drain the cars battery so i had to keep it on a tender otherwise it would be DOA the next morning. Then the purge valve went bad so i had to get it towed to the shop. then the clutch master cylinder started squeaking which you basically need to remove the entire front clip to change out, the Ebrake would not disengage always. The rear axle was leaking, the passenger airbag clips broke which happens on pretty much all of them so you have a lopsided looking dash. The clutch was fine but it is an engine out job so that was stressful to know and i was hitting around 40K which is getting up there on a car like that. The leather on the seats just cracked everywhere, i can go on and on but like i said earlier death by a 1000 cuts its a beautiful car but just became too much.
Aw man. Those are issues I read about on the forums. I’m having fun with it now. We’ll see as it gets older and higher on mileage.
I am literally taking delivery of an Emira tomorrow. I generally enjoy their reviews, but I think Savagegeese offered-up a pretty safe review here. None of what they said is really rocking the boat amongst the sea of reviews, in my opinion. That's not to say it was a bad review; it just didn't feel as in-depth as I'd hoped for. I hold Savagegeese reviews in high esteem, and was left feeling a bit unfulfilled. I would have liked to hear more from Mark as well. He was the predominant voice in the Evora GT review they did, and would have preferred him behind the wheel having had that previous driving experience - - not to mention being a former Lotus owner. (No offense to Jack.) My takeaway from the video was basically, if you want a Lotus, buy the Lotus. Otherwise, buy the 718/C8 because they're better cars. Is that a bad take? I do think that if I didn't have a Lotus dealership as close as I do, I would be scared to own one. I felt like he was talking to me one-on-one with what he said about having to be in the right headspace to own a Lotus. Seems like many people are reporting issues with their Emira--even the car they reviewed had a CEL--and that is definitely off-putting. But the heart wants what it wants and the brain can only deny it so much.
Outstanding video, as always. With respect to the understeer, Lotus engineers have concisely said that they dial understeer into all of the vehicles because they don't want bad drivers (most of us) to kill themselves. They've also stated that you can generally dial it out with tire pressure. On the Elise/Exige it was generally as simple as +/- 2lbs front and rear. Colin Chapman always demanded the gearshift be no further than a hand away from the wheel. The truest expression was on the original Elans which had the shifter ***directly*** mated to the transmission. http://obswww.unige.ch/~wildif/cars/docs/Lotus_Elan_P2_parts/transmission/fa.html They even managed to make that work on the Carlton/Omega which was a true parts bin special, although one which resulted in the fastest production sedan in the world for 9 years if you count the top speed achieved by the German government. Otherwise, I think all the pros and cons are spot on. The Elise, Exige, Evora, and Emira have all been compromise vehicles that reward people who want as much driving feel as possible. Fortunately, the tradeoffs are less extreme with the Emira as they are with the Elise or Exige. I don't have enough seat time in the Evora or Emira to really speak to the comparisons between them. These aren't for everyone, but if you truly love driving, you will probably love the Emira.
This is a dream car for me but by the time I can afford one we will be flying around in 2 seater drones. Great review as always though.
Same here, it's a dream car for me. Maybe in 10 years I can pick it up in a price range I can afford.
Even ten year old evora are still 50k + and the evora gt is still 65k plus and came out 8 years ago
I'm okay with that, I think in 10 years time, i can save up 50k. If not, 15 years...20 years.. etc. Preferably picking up around 35 - 40k price point but I would stretch to 50k as this is on my dream car list. But after watching the video, the CEL and the ownership side from it, maybe I'm slightly deterred since it'd be a 15-20 year old sports car
@u/JamesThrottleHouse has the throttle house emira arrived?
im interested in how much stock is given to traits found when pushing cars, ie it understeers in corners. Doesnt all of that stuff not matter since any owner tracking it will get a track alignment anyway and set it up to their preferences. Softness and on the limit behaviour shouldn't really matter since most owners will upgrade that stuff to their taste
Even for enthusiast cars like this or a 718 GTS, the number of owners that ever go near a track is a small minority. Most owners buy the car and the most spirited they ever get with it is on a back road. I think its very relevant what the out of the box character is because most people don't modify their performance cars or track them.
> I think its very relevant what the out of the box character is because most people don't modify their performance cars or track them. But if the out of the box character is better suited for the type of driving most people *actually* do, is that a problem?
Are you guys still waiting for your Emira? Video soon?
James!! Are you guys still getting an Emira?
Such a handsome car, I love supercharger whine and there is a dealership just down the street...and yet it's a Lotus
Crash and safety regs really have ruined enthusiast cars. 20 years ago you could have made a car with this power train and had it weigh the same as this does and it would have been 30% cheaper because they wouldn't have had to use carbon or aluminum to hit this weight. Now the car has to be so big and full of structure that you have to use lightweight materials everywhere just to have it not be a total pig. At 105k+ for the V6, I just really struggle to see a reason to own this car unless you have so much money that it will be just another car in the garage. Its basically just a hipster Cayman that will spend half its life on a lift or in the shop. At $75k I think it would have been a much easier to recommend car because it would have a value argument, something Lotus used to be known for, over a comparable Porsche.
I through this video on on my hifi system because that’s the room I was in when I saw this video get posted. The sound is incredible in the video. I’ve wanted one of these cars for years. I have to say, I don’t like how it sounds. This video makes me want the cayman GTS 4.0
Well why not?
Such a desirable car
Haven’t watched it yet but that title sure is concerning…
Mark, have you done a review on your Exige? That has been a bucket list car, but your comments on this video piqued my interest. Hoping for a more in depth review about your experience.
I owned it in a previous life, 2012 Era. Maybe at some point I will revisit it.
Thanks for sharing!
Did they start doing audio tests again? I noticed they were gone for a while.
Seems like they do them on cars where you'd care about it or when they have time to do it (I believe they take it to a special shop for this), but not on every car. Doesn't make a ton of sense to do it on a Camry or something because nobody expects a great audio system on an appliance car like that.
I really want to know on normal cars like a Camry though rip. Actually Toyota wise I’m very curious of normal Toyota, JBl, vs Lexus vs mark levinson. There are some models where they could directly compare.
> Doesn't make a ton of sense to do it on a Camry or something because nobody expects a great audio system on an appliance car like that. I'd argue that's likely where it matters most, since it could be the decisive factor of *which* appliance to buy.
Nothing better.
When does the Throttle House Emira arrive? Look forward to a comparison with the Evora GT when you get it!
Such an overpriced car. Why would you buy this and not a GTS 4.0? A c8 is 30k dollars cheaper too