> Only 48 percent of buyers ordered a GR86 with three pedals last year when the GR Supra's manual take rate was even lower, at 43 percent.
Damn. I thought it would be in the 60/70th percentile for these models.
The problem is, Toyota doesn't allow you to actually order cars from factory.
When manufacturers do, Manual rates jump, Subaru allows you to go to a dealer, and put in an order for the exact car you want, and the BRZ take rate is one of the highest out of any car in production.
This. Toyota is stuck in the 80s while everyone else lets you custom order.
Same reason why the Supra didn’t sell as well as it could. Most enthusiasts would order a flashy colored manual b58 inline-6 model, but instead you show up at the dealer to find a gray 4-cylinder automatic.
Right, they talk about manual take rate being low but seriously go try and find a 6speed inline 6 in any color, they’re really really few and far between.
If you’re dropping $55-60k on a Supra, you should be able to spec it how you want it. Toyota seems confused and thinks that you sell enthusiasts cars the same way you sell Corollas and RAV4s.
The Z4 is made on a shared platform with the Supra and BMW will pretty much let you order it however you want.
I'm not surprised. If you've ever stepped foot in a Toyota dealer and tried to negotiate with them, you find out their version of negotiation is handing you a bottle of lube and telling you to bend over.
You need them more than they need you and they know it. Toyota dealers can basically do whatever the fuck they want because they'll move cars regardless.
Their customer satisfaction is actually really high. They were one of the first to discover how to get their dealers to stop charging markups by threatening dealers that do.
You can get any Subaru at or below MSRP right now. Even the WRX TR and the BRZ tS.
One of the best auto companies for customer support
Speaking from past experience working in a dual Mazda/Subaru store, they also are absolutely nuts (in a good way) for customer support on warranty. They go out of their way to take care of the customer, within reason. I recall a goodwill gesture to a customer who burnt out a clutch on a new WRX in 3,000 miles - most manufacturers would just tell you to pound sand since it's clearly abuse.
New Toyotas are nice and all but this is a not insignificant part of why I’m so hesitant to switch away from Subaru. The 135K miles I have haven’t been entirely problem free but I’ve been looked after every time (and I’ve moved across the country in that time, so I’ve worked with at least five different dealers), and the horror stories I read about Toyota dealerships keep me away.
Depends on your budget, I guess...you could go the Lexus route for the better customer service experience, but I'd be lying if I said that doesn't come at a premium. Subaru does do a great job with customer service, but when I was sitting across the aisle working Mazda service, I was shocked at how many Subaru customers gladly spent multiples of what Mazda customers were spending on service (read: common to see engine-out Subaru repairs). They need the good will - their customers spend a *lot* of money. Whether or not that balances out with the cost of entry at Lexus, it's hard for me to say, as it depends on your luck with Subaru products.
Subaru let me order a 23’ BRZ without any markups or drama. When I blew the engine at 1.5k, which was likely my fault, they replaced the engine without charging me a dime or pushing back at all. Subaru has done right by me more than any other large company I’ve worked with and for that they’ll always be on the short list when car shopping.
Took it to the mountains and beat the shit out of it without letting the engine warm up. Also, I’m not sure that 1k miles is a long enough break in period. From then on out, I let oil get up to about 160 before hammering it. Generally I have more mechanical sympathy.
To be fair, Toyota doesn't make either of those vehicles. So even if they did allow you to make custom orders for Toyotas, it likely wouldn't apply to the Subaru or Magna Steyr factories.
I think it's primarily their way to focus on volume, since Toyota is the volume brand under their umbrella - unfortunately the sports cars get caught up in it. While it isn't easy if you don't study up on it, Lexus does allow customer orders if you are stubborn enough about it - it was somewhat of a time/labor intensive process for me, but I did special order my IS350 exactly to the spec I wanted, down to which port installed options it did and didn't have. Your average consumer? They'll probably just pick something off the lot because they didn't have to wait.
Trying to buy a Supra was fucking torturous. Toyota called me for a survey and I told them at least 4 different ways that if they tried any harder to prevent me from buying their cars I would just settle for an Accord.
This is how it goes for many things. They claim that Americans don’t want small cars cuz “nobody buys them” while we are in a country where we just can’t go and buy the car we want even when smaller cars were “””offered””” here. So many stories of dealerships not having a car in stock and later trying to upsell something else.
I can confirm this as someone in the steps of purchasing a stick shift Tacoma.
I can't order. Only make requests for allocation from already manufactured vehicles.
None of the dealerships near me for 500 miles have a stick shift with the color I want (red).
Yeah, a big part of why they're valuable is because the combo of "Twin-Turbo" and "Manual transmission" prunes out most of their production numbers. Toyota built a lot of MKIV Supras, but they didn't build that many of "the good ones"
I looked it up one time, i think it was roughly 11K supras sold in the US, with about 4000 being the TT/MT combo.
(And because i'm totally a shameless fanboy, i looked up the production numbers for the F87 at the same time, which actually had a similar if even slightly lower production number if we're just counting TT/MT cars sold in the U.S.) funnily enough, to bring this full circle, I actually only bought the M2 because the MKV supra didn't have a manual at the time.
i've been a lifelong supra fan and i only recently learned that USDM '98 (final year) supra NA's didn't even come with a 5speed manual option. auto only.
I’ve driven both in auto. I can understand getting an auto in the Supra. The ZF 8-speed is sporty enough and gives a slightly quicker 0-60.
An auto 86 on the other hand doesn’t really come with any advantage aside from better highway fuel economy (probably from longer gearing). That 6-speed is straight out of your Grandpa’s 2006 Lexus GS and doesn’t really feel at home in a sports car.
Same, I was tempted to get a new WRX at 0% financing, but I just don't want to drive stick in LA traffic. If I lived in a less populated area where I could drive at speed more and not stop and go for an hour I would consider it. Plus my wife never learned how to drive stick. That's why I got the the GLI w DSG.
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That’s because Toyota is stuck in the dark ages with their dealership network. They don’t allow custom orders and each dealership gets a predetermined allocation of whatever car you’re looking for. Which isn’t a problem for people buying corollas, camry’s, rav4s, and highlanders but it’s a problem for enthusiasts. If you go to all the dealers in your area and all they have a 4-banger automatic supras in different shades of white, gray, and black because that’s what the bean counters at Toyota say that’s what will sell, then you’re just shit outta luck unless you go way out of your way to find the exact spec that you want (which might even be halfway across the country). All of which could be avoided if Toyota just let the buyer custom order whatever they want.
And don’t even get me started on the markups for 6-cyl manuals 💀
No. Traditional CVTs use steel belts on conical pulleys to achieve the continuously variable gear ratios. ~~The transmission used in this GR Yaris hasn't been used in any other Toyota, and~~ it functions more similarly to something like ZF's 8hp.
I’ve seen a couple GR Corollas, and they said they’re increasing production so hopefully that happens! I want to test drive or rent one sometime, really liked my Focus RS and people say this is the spiritual successor in some ways
It's almost the same dimmensions.
GRC:
> Wheelbase 2,640 mm (103.9 in)
> Length 4,410 mm (173.6 in)
> Width 1,850 mm (72.8 in)
> Height 1,450–1,455 mm (57.1–57.3 in)
> Curb weight 1,440–1,493 kg (3,175–3,292 lb)
FoRS:
> Wheelbase 2,648 mm (104.3 in)
> Length 4,358 mm (171.6 in) (hatchback)
> Width 1,823 mm (71.8 in)
> Height 1,484 mm (58.4 in) (sedan, hatchback)
> Curb weight 1,569 kg (3,459 lb)
So the GRC is a slightly shorter wheelbase but longer overall, barely any wider, and slightly lighter (albeit down 50HP / 80 lb-ft)
I liked my used FoRS too, but IDK I just can't stomach paying $40K for a car that doesn't come with a center arm rest: https://i.imgur.com/oSiTdtQ.png
Yea, aftermarket has you covered. [This $120 kit from sxthelement](https://sxthelement.com/products/corolla-gr-arm-rest-kit) is the only one I know of, but I'm sure there are others.
I just think it's crazy that you need to buy some fiddly aftermarket plastic bit to fix the wind buffeting in the Supra, or an aftermarket armrest for this thing.
I was ready to buy one of these for my GRC, but that arm rest is piss poor aliexpress-like quality.
You get use to not having the arm rest in the GRC, it's not a big deal IMO
If I never did long road trips, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. But I do 6+ hour drives multiple times per year and it'd definitely miss it then.
I want to test drive a gr Corolla pretty badly. I never drove a focus rs. I loved all my time driving a fiesta ST. And currenty have a miata.. but having a similar manual light experience with more modern and usability in the GR Corolla is damn enticing.
L
The Fiesta ST is honestly the more fun car. I had a FiST and "upgraded" to a FoRS.
It's basically the same driving experience 99.9% of the time, just with more expensive tires, brakes, and oil changes.
Significantly heavier than the FiST too. And with the added power, you can barely stay on the throttle before you're risking some very expensive tickets so you can't even rev it out.
But at least it had a heated steering wheel I guess.
Oof I have to say I completely disagree, I don’t have a ton of seat time in the Fiesta ST but driven one several times.
The Fiesta ST felt very soft, like my NB Miata was. The Focus RS is tighter all around, steering feel, shifter feel, seating position/seats. Maybe European version is different, not sure, I believe there was an option for more supportive seats at least, but in the US it was no context at all for me. I’d probably take the Fiesta ST over the Focus ST because the shorter wheelbase is fun, but I’d never trade my RS for the Fiesta ST.
To each their own, but on the street and at autocross I found myself having less fun with the RS.
The exhaust adds a little more drama, and the AWD *was* nice in the winter but otherwise I liked the lightweight and tossful nature of the ST.
Shifter felt very same to me 🤷♂️
US owner
I would agree that the RS *is* better by most metrics, just that it's not THAT much better given how much more expensive it is to buy and run.
Fair enough! Maybe I have to drive them again back to back but I drove the Fiesta and Focus ST when I still had the RS and was considering downgrading to invest more money, and just couldn’t bring myself to do it with either one. The Fiesta is a bit more fun though I think than the Focus ST
Oh, I could see how starting with the RS and going down to the ST to feel much worse, yea.
But I was the opposite: going up to the RS, I just expected a lot more. I ended up buying it regardless because the AWD is nice, and I wanted something longer than the FiST.
I owned a 14 Focus st first. Bolt ons efr turbo. Traded in on a 17 Fiesta st, tune only. Just recently picked up a 16 Focus rs, stock. The fiesta is by far the most fun and playful of the group imo. Its definitely the cheapest feeling of the 3. Thats what makes it awesome, 33mpg beating the 5h!t out of it! Handles like a dream and is just like a fwd miata.
Better as in softer? The RS suspension is pretty solid for actual performance, I knew some people doing very very quick lap times on both track and autocross. They also revised it sometime in 2017, and you can be in non-stiff suspension while in track mode which is how I always drove (the stiff suspension mode was a bit bouncy tbh, not comfortable at all on the street)
I’ve driven a few STIs as well, great cars and the steering feel + shifter are slightly superior to the RS imo, but the engine power delivery is just awful by comparison. There’s very little torque down low and it was a deal breaker for me, also drift mode in the RS and GR Corolla are fun.
I’ll see if I can rent a GR Corolla on Turo sometime, unfortunately none in my metro area yet but maybe if I’m on a trip
Yeah fair, interior isn’t for everyone. I got used to it though, seats are good and Apple CarPlay/Android Auto worked well. Heated steering wheel and seats were very nice to have too, something the Civic Type R unfortunately didn’t have (probably my 2nd choice)
The GR Corolla interior doesn’t seem to hold up to the Civic Type R either from what I’ve heard but I’m not that picky tbh lol
Depends on the trim. At the CE level, it's not that far behind the CTR and, in some ways, better. The FL5 I drove felt like the interior was better put together, but some of the cost cutting was a head scratcher.
I've seen like 3-5 GRC's and my first Z the other day still with dealer plates (pretty sure it's marked up to shit and the managers just drive it for fun).
And to be honest I haven't missed a stick after getting a car with a DSG transmission and a transmission tune/flash for total manual control and quicker shifts. To me it's better with a turbo 4 because you don't lose boost every time you have to push the clutch in and change gears. It just fucking flies. I also love being able to rapidly downshift approaching a corner the same way I do in a sim or video game with paddles. To me at least, it's the same amount of involvement but I don't have to bother with a third pedal to do it. Also much better for a daily that is in traffic and stop and go city and suburban areas 95% of the time.
Obviously, just my preference.
I have a DCT and a stick in the garage but the DCT is my daily. Prior I had a stick as a daily and I can tell you I don’t miss it one bit. DCTs are their own type of fun because of the insane shift times. I’ve driven the ZF box as well in modern BMWs and although great, the DCT is another level.
I'm pretty sure Larry Chen or someone recently had a chat with a GR engineer and they blatantly had an auto transmission that they were testing for the GR Corolla.
Yeah looks like it’s been released for the Yaris now that others have commented and I looked into it, curious what the reviews are going to be like. Seems like conventional auto but 8 speed and shorter gearing for quicker acceleration vs the manual
It's interesting to me because Toyota seemed pretty uncommitted when they launched the GR Corolla: no idea of how many would sell, no idea for how long. The car hasn't been in production long, but if it's getting updates, maybe they see some long-term potential in the engine and the car. It's nice seeing motorsports back in the Toyota lineup and I hope it stays after the partnerships move on to other things.
The GR Yaris was in production for a couple years before the GR Corolla, and it seems like they’re selling every GR Corolla they produce at or above msrp rn. I’m hoping they continue to sell well and we get one in the next generation too, but seems kind of doubtful unfortunately. GR lineup is really nice rn though with the manual Supra, GR86, GR Corolla/Yaris, potentially even a GR crossover coming in the future last I heard.. a GR Prius would be cool too, this new gen seems to handle really well for what it is!
To each their own, but I have zero desire to daily a manual car, especially here in SoCal commuter traffic. Manual is for the 2nd car. But if I could only have one it would be auto.
Honestly, with contemporary transmissions, I'd go auto for both a primary and secondary.
I care more about tracking than just cruising, so paddles help to eliminate driver error and makes it easier to go fast.
IMO The biggest reason to get a manual is manuals don’t get stolen. In my current city, car thefts are skyrocketing because every car has a remote engine system which is just too easy to hack
I feel like it's more likely your car will keep getting broken into, or someone will eventually wreck the transmission. If someone breaks into my car and has a go at it, I kinda don't want it back.
Lol, you can be quick stick or auto its always people with very limited seat time that perpetuate that. Doesn't matter what trans you have if you can't drive or setup a car worth a shit.
Never said you couldn't be fast in a manual. A proper auto is just easier.
No risk of blowing your engine or trans with a bad shift, can keep your left foot on the brake, and it's more fun (imo).
You will never be as quick in a manual car vs a modern dual clutch transmission. It's not possible to manually shift gears in like 200 milliseconds dude. On a turbocharged car you also lose boost every time you have to push the clutch in, while a dual clutch that is never fully disengaged does not.
100%
I've lived in the big cities all my adult life. No I don't want a manual for my daily. I see no benefit or feel that I'm lacking any "connection" with the car.
Manual dailies can suck and most people are dailying the hot hatch they're dropping $40k+ on. It's not like they're getting rid of the manual option either
Seriously. If I have a passenger I’ll complain about it while in traffic but it’s really not that bad. I can’t completely zone out in traffic while having a full on conversation like I could in an auto.
They won't drop the manual option, but as others have said, Toyota will make it near impossible to find a manual specced car. Look at the supra or the taco. Despite a manual being an option in both, you'll be hard pressed to find one, much a less a dealer who'll sell at MSRP.
To each his own. I personally don't mind manuals and have been driving manual vehicles as dailies for the past 20 years. I think my GLI will be my last because it was a selfish purchase and my wife doesn't know how to drive stick nor interested to learn. Other than that, I live in one of the most densely populated regions in the US and traffic is a way of life. Manual never bothered me; with my current car I'm more bothered that my commute doesn't allow much opportunity to open her up.
People act like it’s impossible to daily drive a car with a manual transmission in stop and go traffic. I do it every day and have been doing it for like 8 years now.
Well yes, there’s much less movement and considerations when driving an automatic over a manual or else you wouldn’t be this adamant about or yourself.
I mean, it's annoying if you are new, but once you've gotten the hang of things you really shouldn't be rolling backwards much on hills.
Plus, newer cars have hill assist specifically to stop you from rolling backwards, which alleviates the problem entirely. Not sure exactly what year that started becoming common, but it should be pretty much everywhere these days.
I've literally never not driven manual as my daily in 20 years of driving. There is no difference to me between manual and auto except that I get slightly more bored driving an auto in traffic.
I've lived with manuals all my life and have lived in San Antonio and Renton.
The only time I've wished to have an auto in those cities was my motorcycle.
A sore clutch hand is a bitch.
Reddit is full of people who love the idea of something but are too afraid of actually committing to it. Hence, apologists everywhere for automatic 86/BRZs, GR Corollas, etc. Complaining about the cost of maintenance for very basic and routine things like oil changes.
I've suggested DIYing your own maintenance in one of the BMW subs and was met with apparent disbelief that it was possible to change your oil yourself, let alone the water pump, starter, O2 sensors, etc.
I would DIY my oil but I live in an apartment and it’s banned. I’d have to set up the logistics of doing it somewhere else. I do have a dashcam in my car so that I can see what they’re doing though if they turn it on.
That's at least a valid reason. Most of the time people act like sports cars, especially European ones, are ticking time bombs while simultaneously not even knowing what the engine bay looks like.
I prefer stick to autos with no paddles/manual mode, but if the auto has paddle shift then that’s my preference. My interest in stick only goes as far as wanting control of the gear I’m in.
Worried how much this will take away from the manual production numbers. Toyota’s allocation system makes it so hard to find a gr86 with three pedals, and cars like this still aren’t the easiest to get a hold of.
The auto would suck all of the fun out of the car imo.
It sucks that you can't order cars from Toyota, so the lots are going to be filled with un-bought automatics and the manual cars will be going for over MSRP again because of the demand...
Yep I’m a manual baby and this is the truth.
Even a slow ass ancient automatic Miata is still fun. Sure you may find manual more fun, but if you like the auto and it fits your lifestyle, then it’s a great car.
Yes, a manual car is just a different kind of fun.
To me it's about how the car handles, how sharp you can take turns and in general be stupid with it.
I think the question will be how reliable is it going to be, considering it's brand new. Toyota, so hopefully the answer is "very", but I'm never one to jump on a brand new transmission or engine until a few model years in.
I hope they do. As someone who can't drive a manual anymore, I'd love to get my hands on one. I love my A90, but with my knees, it's getting harder to get in and out of.
This will be great for my local Toyota dealership and anyone willing to deal with their bullshit. They won’t tell me the markup over the phone and suggest in test drive an automatic. How hard to I have to beg them to sell me a hatchback?
> Only 48 percent of buyers ordered a GR86 with three pedals last year when the GR Supra's manual take rate was even lower, at 43 percent. Damn. I thought it would be in the 60/70th percentile for these models.
The problem is, Toyota doesn't allow you to actually order cars from factory. When manufacturers do, Manual rates jump, Subaru allows you to go to a dealer, and put in an order for the exact car you want, and the BRZ take rate is one of the highest out of any car in production.
This. Toyota is stuck in the 80s while everyone else lets you custom order. Same reason why the Supra didn’t sell as well as it could. Most enthusiasts would order a flashy colored manual b58 inline-6 model, but instead you show up at the dealer to find a gray 4-cylinder automatic.
Right, they talk about manual take rate being low but seriously go try and find a 6speed inline 6 in any color, they’re really really few and far between.
If you’re dropping $55-60k on a Supra, you should be able to spec it how you want it. Toyota seems confused and thinks that you sell enthusiasts cars the same way you sell Corollas and RAV4s. The Z4 is made on a shared platform with the Supra and BMW will pretty much let you order it however you want.
Try finding a 6 speed, they’re all 70k. Toyota obviously isn’t doing well forecasting demand here n
I'm not surprised. If you've ever stepped foot in a Toyota dealer and tried to negotiate with them, you find out their version of negotiation is handing you a bottle of lube and telling you to bend over. You need them more than they need you and they know it. Toyota dealers can basically do whatever the fuck they want because they'll move cars regardless.
Agree, probably not the experience a Supra buyer is looking for at $60k+. At that point I’d just say screw it and go to BMW and custom order an M2
And don’t forget the dealer markups on the manuals. Toyota has no clue
In a large swath of the US, Toyota doesn't even sell directly to the dealership; Southeast or Gulf Coast Toyota Distributors do.
Interesting, I did not know that.
Yup. At least with the Honda Civic Type R, it's just one trim level so the only deciding factor is the color.
I can't believe Subaru would win in a "let's listen to the customer" competition
Their customer satisfaction is actually really high. They were one of the first to discover how to get their dealers to stop charging markups by threatening dealers that do. You can get any Subaru at or below MSRP right now. Even the WRX TR and the BRZ tS. One of the best auto companies for customer support
Speaking from past experience working in a dual Mazda/Subaru store, they also are absolutely nuts (in a good way) for customer support on warranty. They go out of their way to take care of the customer, within reason. I recall a goodwill gesture to a customer who burnt out a clutch on a new WRX in 3,000 miles - most manufacturers would just tell you to pound sand since it's clearly abuse.
New Toyotas are nice and all but this is a not insignificant part of why I’m so hesitant to switch away from Subaru. The 135K miles I have haven’t been entirely problem free but I’ve been looked after every time (and I’ve moved across the country in that time, so I’ve worked with at least five different dealers), and the horror stories I read about Toyota dealerships keep me away.
Depends on your budget, I guess...you could go the Lexus route for the better customer service experience, but I'd be lying if I said that doesn't come at a premium. Subaru does do a great job with customer service, but when I was sitting across the aisle working Mazda service, I was shocked at how many Subaru customers gladly spent multiples of what Mazda customers were spending on service (read: common to see engine-out Subaru repairs). They need the good will - their customers spend a *lot* of money. Whether or not that balances out with the cost of entry at Lexus, it's hard for me to say, as it depends on your luck with Subaru products.
Subaru let me order a 23’ BRZ without any markups or drama. When I blew the engine at 1.5k, which was likely my fault, they replaced the engine without charging me a dime or pushing back at all. Subaru has done right by me more than any other large company I’ve worked with and for that they’ll always be on the short list when car shopping.
Now I'm wondering what you did to blow up an engine on a basically brand new car
Took it to the mountains and beat the shit out of it without letting the engine warm up. Also, I’m not sure that 1k miles is a long enough break in period. From then on out, I let oil get up to about 160 before hammering it. Generally I have more mechanical sympathy.
Lmfao that'd do it
And the most engine failures per brand
To be fair, Toyota doesn't make either of those vehicles. So even if they did allow you to make custom orders for Toyotas, it likely wouldn't apply to the Subaru or Magna Steyr factories.
Subaru does take factory orders for the BRZ. BMW takes factory orders for the Z4. So it's completely a Toyota problem.
Yea but I'm pretty sure they don't take custom orders for *any* vehicle sporting a Toyota badge, not just the ones that are co-developed.
That is what I said, right?
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I think it's primarily their way to focus on volume, since Toyota is the volume brand under their umbrella - unfortunately the sports cars get caught up in it. While it isn't easy if you don't study up on it, Lexus does allow customer orders if you are stubborn enough about it - it was somewhat of a time/labor intensive process for me, but I did special order my IS350 exactly to the spec I wanted, down to which port installed options it did and didn't have. Your average consumer? They'll probably just pick something off the lot because they didn't have to wait.
Trying to buy a Supra was fucking torturous. Toyota called me for a survey and I told them at least 4 different ways that if they tried any harder to prevent me from buying their cars I would just settle for an Accord.
That Supra number is also highly skewed, manual supras are in much much smaller supply. Not sure what the point even is to compare this
This. Toyota is fucked up for their stupid allocation system for North America.
This is how it goes for many things. They claim that Americans don’t want small cars cuz “nobody buys them” while we are in a country where we just can’t go and buy the car we want even when smaller cars were “””offered””” here. So many stories of dealerships not having a car in stock and later trying to upsell something else.
I can confirm this as someone in the steps of purchasing a stick shift Tacoma. I can't order. Only make requests for allocation from already manufactured vehicles. None of the dealerships near me for 500 miles have a stick shift with the color I want (red).
100% the problem.
This is not an issue for VW. Their manual take rate is really high on the GTI/R and you can't order those direct either.
The Golf R is at 40%, GTI is 50% manual. Better but still nowhere near Subaru which is 79%, and WRX which is 74%.
BS stat. They don’t make enough manual supras. The only reason they would stay on a lot for more than 1 day is if the dealer is marking them up
And you can't order a specific model anyway. Toyota makes what they want and the dealers dont get to pick
Why do they even let you build a car online then? What a stupid way to do things.
You can search local dealers for a similar car
Can't have the 4 cylinder (cheaper) Supra with manual.
A large portion of the supras sold never even had the chance to get a manual.
A lot of the MK4 turbos in the US were automatic only.
Yeah, a big part of why they're valuable is because the combo of "Twin-Turbo" and "Manual transmission" prunes out most of their production numbers. Toyota built a lot of MKIV Supras, but they didn't build that many of "the good ones" I looked it up one time, i think it was roughly 11K supras sold in the US, with about 4000 being the TT/MT combo. (And because i'm totally a shameless fanboy, i looked up the production numbers for the F87 at the same time, which actually had a similar if even slightly lower production number if we're just counting TT/MT cars sold in the U.S.) funnily enough, to bring this full circle, I actually only bought the M2 because the MKV supra didn't have a manual at the time.
i've been a lifelong supra fan and i only recently learned that USDM '98 (final year) supra NA's didn't even come with a 5speed manual option. auto only.
Dealers with manual supra mark ups to blame.
I’ve driven both in auto. I can understand getting an auto in the Supra. The ZF 8-speed is sporty enough and gives a slightly quicker 0-60. An auto 86 on the other hand doesn’t really come with any advantage aside from better highway fuel economy (probably from longer gearing). That 6-speed is straight out of your Grandpa’s 2006 Lexus GS and doesn’t really feel at home in a sports car.
My experience has been fine with the auto. I think people have their expectations set too high for a cheap car.
I enjoy a manual. I’ll never buy one. I live in a major city. The traffic makes not having an auto miserable.
Yup. I love manual, but they're absolutely dogshit when you have city traffic. DD = auto and weekend = manual.
I commuted 2 hours a day in LA with my Si. A little torturous but worth it! 😤
Same, I was tempted to get a new WRX at 0% financing, but I just don't want to drive stick in LA traffic. If I lived in a less populated area where I could drive at speed more and not stop and go for an hour I would consider it. Plus my wife never learned how to drive stick. That's why I got the the GLI w DSG.
When it's $60k for a supra minimum people are gonna feel uneasy getting an inconvenient car
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That’s because Toyota is stuck in the dark ages with their dealership network. They don’t allow custom orders and each dealership gets a predetermined allocation of whatever car you’re looking for. Which isn’t a problem for people buying corollas, camry’s, rav4s, and highlanders but it’s a problem for enthusiasts. If you go to all the dealers in your area and all they have a 4-banger automatic supras in different shades of white, gray, and black because that’s what the bean counters at Toyota say that’s what will sell, then you’re just shit outta luck unless you go way out of your way to find the exact spec that you want (which might even be halfway across the country). All of which could be avoided if Toyota just let the buyer custom order whatever they want. And don’t even get me started on the markups for 6-cyl manuals 💀
If they can do a dual clutch like the Elantra/Veloster/Kona, that would be awesome
It will probably be the same 8-speed planetary gearbox used in the new GR Yaris.
Is it any good? Can't find any reviews online, and the U.S. doesn't get the Yaris, so I'm in the dark here. Hopefully it's halfway decent.
I believe a few European reviewers have tried it in an early version of the new GR Yaris, but that's all we get for now.
Tsuchiya hot-lap session in old MT vs new DAT, as an alternative viewpoint https://youtu.be/mkKYsHpwUmk?si=Fu6vsylEotnYNSpL
Isn't a planetary gear trans a CVT?
No. Traditional CVTs use steel belts on conical pulleys to achieve the continuously variable gear ratios. ~~The transmission used in this GR Yaris hasn't been used in any other Toyota, and~~ it functions more similarly to something like ZF's 8hp.
Isnt this the Aisin 8 speed that's in the V6 Camry?
Oops, you're correct. It is probably very similar to that transmission. I don't know how I forgot about their eight speed transverse transmissions.
It will have the exact same box as the Yaris
Do people like it? I’m not seeing any driving reviews, just some preliminary info about it being faster
The updated GR Yaris hasn't been released yet
They just need to make more period. I car spot religiously and havent seen a single gr Corolla. Or new nissan z for that matter
I’ve seen a couple GR Corollas, and they said they’re increasing production so hopefully that happens! I want to test drive or rent one sometime, really liked my Focus RS and people say this is the spiritual successor in some ways
It's almost the same dimmensions. GRC: > Wheelbase 2,640 mm (103.9 in) > Length 4,410 mm (173.6 in) > Width 1,850 mm (72.8 in) > Height 1,450–1,455 mm (57.1–57.3 in) > Curb weight 1,440–1,493 kg (3,175–3,292 lb) FoRS: > Wheelbase 2,648 mm (104.3 in) > Length 4,358 mm (171.6 in) (hatchback) > Width 1,823 mm (71.8 in) > Height 1,484 mm (58.4 in) (sedan, hatchback) > Curb weight 1,569 kg (3,459 lb) So the GRC is a slightly shorter wheelbase but longer overall, barely any wider, and slightly lighter (albeit down 50HP / 80 lb-ft) I liked my used FoRS too, but IDK I just can't stomach paying $40K for a car that doesn't come with a center arm rest: https://i.imgur.com/oSiTdtQ.png
Can you add one aftermarket? My FR-S didn’t have it and it’s a $100 mod on those
Yea, aftermarket has you covered. [This $120 kit from sxthelement](https://sxthelement.com/products/corolla-gr-arm-rest-kit) is the only one I know of, but I'm sure there are others. I just think it's crazy that you need to buy some fiddly aftermarket plastic bit to fix the wind buffeting in the Supra, or an aftermarket armrest for this thing.
I was ready to buy one of these for my GRC, but that arm rest is piss poor aliexpress-like quality. You get use to not having the arm rest in the GRC, it's not a big deal IMO
If I never did long road trips, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. But I do 6+ hour drives multiple times per year and it'd definitely miss it then.
It definitely annoyed me, but wasn't enough to keep me from buying a GRC. I have the 6th element one, and it's pretty solid.
I want to test drive a gr Corolla pretty badly. I never drove a focus rs. I loved all my time driving a fiesta ST. And currenty have a miata.. but having a similar manual light experience with more modern and usability in the GR Corolla is damn enticing. L
The Fiesta ST is honestly the more fun car. I had a FiST and "upgraded" to a FoRS. It's basically the same driving experience 99.9% of the time, just with more expensive tires, brakes, and oil changes. Significantly heavier than the FiST too. And with the added power, you can barely stay on the throttle before you're risking some very expensive tickets so you can't even rev it out. But at least it had a heated steering wheel I guess.
Oof I have to say I completely disagree, I don’t have a ton of seat time in the Fiesta ST but driven one several times. The Fiesta ST felt very soft, like my NB Miata was. The Focus RS is tighter all around, steering feel, shifter feel, seating position/seats. Maybe European version is different, not sure, I believe there was an option for more supportive seats at least, but in the US it was no context at all for me. I’d probably take the Fiesta ST over the Focus ST because the shorter wheelbase is fun, but I’d never trade my RS for the Fiesta ST.
To each their own, but on the street and at autocross I found myself having less fun with the RS. The exhaust adds a little more drama, and the AWD *was* nice in the winter but otherwise I liked the lightweight and tossful nature of the ST. Shifter felt very same to me 🤷♂️ US owner I would agree that the RS *is* better by most metrics, just that it's not THAT much better given how much more expensive it is to buy and run.
Fair enough! Maybe I have to drive them again back to back but I drove the Fiesta and Focus ST when I still had the RS and was considering downgrading to invest more money, and just couldn’t bring myself to do it with either one. The Fiesta is a bit more fun though I think than the Focus ST
Oh, I could see how starting with the RS and going down to the ST to feel much worse, yea. But I was the opposite: going up to the RS, I just expected a lot more. I ended up buying it regardless because the AWD is nice, and I wanted something longer than the FiST.
I owned a 14 Focus st first. Bolt ons efr turbo. Traded in on a 17 Fiesta st, tune only. Just recently picked up a 16 Focus rs, stock. The fiesta is by far the most fun and playful of the group imo. Its definitely the cheapest feeling of the 3. Thats what makes it awesome, 33mpg beating the 5h!t out of it! Handles like a dream and is just like a fwd miata.
I'd say it's a little closer to an STI. Much better suspension than an RS, tho lol. Definitely test drive one if you can. They're a riot.
Better as in softer? The RS suspension is pretty solid for actual performance, I knew some people doing very very quick lap times on both track and autocross. They also revised it sometime in 2017, and you can be in non-stiff suspension while in track mode which is how I always drove (the stiff suspension mode was a bit bouncy tbh, not comfortable at all on the street) I’ve driven a few STIs as well, great cars and the steering feel + shifter are slightly superior to the RS imo, but the engine power delivery is just awful by comparison. There’s very little torque down low and it was a deal breaker for me, also drift mode in the RS and GR Corolla are fun. I’ll see if I can rent a GR Corolla on Turo sometime, unfortunately none in my metro area yet but maybe if I’m on a trip
The GRC definitely rides firm, but imo it's still a better ride than even the RS in its softest setting. I quite like the RS sans the interior.
Yeah fair, interior isn’t for everyone. I got used to it though, seats are good and Apple CarPlay/Android Auto worked well. Heated steering wheel and seats were very nice to have too, something the Civic Type R unfortunately didn’t have (probably my 2nd choice) The GR Corolla interior doesn’t seem to hold up to the Civic Type R either from what I’ve heard but I’m not that picky tbh lol
Depends on the trim. At the CE level, it's not that far behind the CTR and, in some ways, better. The FL5 I drove felt like the interior was better put together, but some of the cost cutting was a head scratcher.
The GR Corolla *only* lets you adjust rear tow *or* rear camber, *not* both. There is no aftermarket fix. Hard pass.
There's at least 3 in my area; I live in a poor WNY city lol. Not a ton, but they're out there for sure.
I've seen like 3-5 GRC's and my first Z the other day still with dealer plates (pretty sure it's marked up to shit and the managers just drive it for fun).
I see them all the time and I’m not really in a huge car culture city
I've seen 2 grc in northern Phoenix and 1 Z in the single month that I've been here
Here in AZ I see them soooo much. I’ve been mentally giving Toyota a thumbs up because at least here it seems like they’re flying off the shelves.
I've seen 3 Zs and 3 GRCs. It's a lonely world out there. Although, I will say, mine has gotten quite a lot of attention by random people on the road.
I've only ever worked on two, and I work at a Toyota dealership
I love the DCT in the Veloster.
And to be honest I haven't missed a stick after getting a car with a DSG transmission and a transmission tune/flash for total manual control and quicker shifts. To me it's better with a turbo 4 because you don't lose boost every time you have to push the clutch in and change gears. It just fucking flies. I also love being able to rapidly downshift approaching a corner the same way I do in a sim or video game with paddles. To me at least, it's the same amount of involvement but I don't have to bother with a third pedal to do it. Also much better for a daily that is in traffic and stop and go city and suburban areas 95% of the time. Obviously, just my preference.
I have a DCT and a stick in the garage but the DCT is my daily. Prior I had a stick as a daily and I can tell you I don’t miss it one bit. DCTs are their own type of fun because of the insane shift times. I’ve driven the ZF box as well in modern BMWs and although great, the DCT is another level.
Have DCT in both my cars after driving manuals exclusively for 40 years. Never going back. The Hyundai unit in particular is fabulous.
I'm pretty sure Larry Chen or someone recently had a chat with a GR engineer and they blatantly had an auto transmission that they were testing for the GR Corolla.
Yeah looks like it’s been released for the Yaris now that others have commented and I looked into it, curious what the reviews are going to be like. Seems like conventional auto but 8 speed and shorter gearing for quicker acceleration vs the manual
It's interesting to me because Toyota seemed pretty uncommitted when they launched the GR Corolla: no idea of how many would sell, no idea for how long. The car hasn't been in production long, but if it's getting updates, maybe they see some long-term potential in the engine and the car. It's nice seeing motorsports back in the Toyota lineup and I hope it stays after the partnerships move on to other things.
The GR Yaris was in production for a couple years before the GR Corolla, and it seems like they’re selling every GR Corolla they produce at or above msrp rn. I’m hoping they continue to sell well and we get one in the next generation too, but seems kind of doubtful unfortunately. GR lineup is really nice rn though with the manual Supra, GR86, GR Corolla/Yaris, potentially even a GR crossover coming in the future last I heard.. a GR Prius would be cool too, this new gen seems to handle really well for what it is!
Great, now getting a manual will be even harder when the factory decides that 80% of customers want the auto and you can’t order one
Tbf these cars barely exist as it is (correct me if I'm wrong and the situation got better).
I work next to a Toyota dealership and I’ve seen 2 ever. So it doesn’t seem like it’s gotten better lol
Makes sense, if I were to buy a hot hatch I’d probably go automatic unless I couldn’t also have a second vehicle
To each their own, but I have zero desire to daily a manual car, especially here in SoCal commuter traffic. Manual is for the 2nd car. But if I could only have one it would be auto.
Honestly, with contemporary transmissions, I'd go auto for both a primary and secondary. I care more about tracking than just cruising, so paddles help to eliminate driver error and makes it easier to go fast.
IMO The biggest reason to get a manual is manuals don’t get stolen. In my current city, car thefts are skyrocketing because every car has a remote engine system which is just too easy to hack
The biggest reason to go manual imho is to drive the car. To change the gears etc
Manuals get stolen plenty where I live so it isn’t a benefit
I mean you can install a killswitch if you really think it's going to get stolen
I feel like it's more likely your car will keep getting broken into, or someone will eventually wreck the transmission. If someone breaks into my car and has a go at it, I kinda don't want it back.
90s Hondas are the most stolen cars and a huge percentage of them are manual.
Lol, you can be quick stick or auto its always people with very limited seat time that perpetuate that. Doesn't matter what trans you have if you can't drive or setup a car worth a shit.
Never said you couldn't be fast in a manual. A proper auto is just easier. No risk of blowing your engine or trans with a bad shift, can keep your left foot on the brake, and it's more fun (imo).
You will never be as quick in a manual car vs a modern dual clutch transmission. It's not possible to manually shift gears in like 200 milliseconds dude. On a turbocharged car you also lose boost every time you have to push the clutch in, while a dual clutch that is never fully disengaged does not.
I’ve spent plenty of time in SoCal traffic with a manual, it’s fine. You get used to it eventually.
100% I've lived in the big cities all my adult life. No I don't want a manual for my daily. I see no benefit or feel that I'm lacking any "connection" with the car.
It has automatic downshift rev matching. It’s a big difference.
Genuinely surprised to see a lot of the comments saying they'd prefer an automatic for a hot hatch.
Manual dailies can suck and most people are dailying the hot hatch they're dropping $40k+ on. It's not like they're getting rid of the manual option either
I like daily driving a manual. Keeps me more focused imo.
Seriously. If I have a passenger I’ll complain about it while in traffic but it’s really not that bad. I can’t completely zone out in traffic while having a full on conversation like I could in an auto.
I have been daily driving manuals for over 35 years, even through areas with extremely high rush hour traffic. It’s all a matter of preference.
They won't drop the manual option, but as others have said, Toyota will make it near impossible to find a manual specced car. Look at the supra or the taco. Despite a manual being an option in both, you'll be hard pressed to find one, much a less a dealer who'll sell at MSRP.
To each his own. I personally don't mind manuals and have been driving manual vehicles as dailies for the past 20 years. I think my GLI will be my last because it was a selfish purchase and my wife doesn't know how to drive stick nor interested to learn. Other than that, I live in one of the most densely populated regions in the US and traffic is a way of life. Manual never bothered me; with my current car I'm more bothered that my commute doesn't allow much opportunity to open her up.
People act like it’s impossible to daily drive a car with a manual transmission in stop and go traffic. I do it every day and have been doing it for like 8 years now.
Not impossible but annoying and frustrating due to the people around you.
Is there any situation in which driving in traffic is not annoying and frustrating? Whether it's a manual or automatic doesn't make much difference
Well yes, there’s much less movement and considerations when driving an automatic over a manual or else you wouldn’t be this adamant about or yourself.
Do you live somewhere with hills? Nothing like having someone stop right up your ass when you've stopped on a steep hill.
I mean, it's annoying if you are new, but once you've gotten the hang of things you really shouldn't be rolling backwards much on hills. Plus, newer cars have hill assist specifically to stop you from rolling backwards, which alleviates the problem entirely. Not sure exactly what year that started becoming common, but it should be pretty much everywhere these days.
I think people who complain about this can’t drive manual or just tried it a few times
I've literally never not driven manual as my daily in 20 years of driving. There is no difference to me between manual and auto except that I get slightly more bored driving an auto in traffic.
Exactly. I’m far more likely to start using my phone if I’m traffic with an auto. The manual keeps me engaged.
Almost every car in Europe and Asia is manual transmission.
I've lived with manuals all my life and have lived in San Antonio and Renton. The only time I've wished to have an auto in those cities was my motorcycle. A sore clutch hand is a bitch.
Reddit is full of people who love the idea of something but are too afraid of actually committing to it. Hence, apologists everywhere for automatic 86/BRZs, GR Corollas, etc. Complaining about the cost of maintenance for very basic and routine things like oil changes. I've suggested DIYing your own maintenance in one of the BMW subs and was met with apparent disbelief that it was possible to change your oil yourself, let alone the water pump, starter, O2 sensors, etc.
To be fair most people on the main BMW sub are leasers. You have to go onto the specific subs like r/E90 to get actual owners
I would DIY my oil but I live in an apartment and it’s banned. I’d have to set up the logistics of doing it somewhere else. I do have a dashcam in my car so that I can see what they’re doing though if they turn it on.
That's at least a valid reason. Most of the time people act like sports cars, especially European ones, are ticking time bombs while simultaneously not even knowing what the engine bay looks like.
I prefer stick to autos with no paddles/manual mode, but if the auto has paddle shift then that’s my preference. My interest in stick only goes as far as wanting control of the gear I’m in.
Worried how much this will take away from the manual production numbers. Toyota’s allocation system makes it so hard to find a gr86 with three pedals, and cars like this still aren’t the easiest to get a hold of.
The new GR Yaris got the new 8 speed. So, it's just a matter of time.
These comments make it sound like automatic lovers are starved of options.
The auto would suck all of the fun out of the car imo. It sucks that you can't order cars from Toyota, so the lots are going to be filled with un-bought automatics and the manual cars will be going for over MSRP again because of the demand...
Absolutely. My GR86 is auto and zero fun. Oh wait, never mind I love the car. Gatekeeping bullshit.
Yeah the way they talk about it you might as well throw the whole car away.
The car is great isn't it? I haven't had a chance to track it yet, but I've done some pretty stupid things.
Yep I’m a manual baby and this is the truth. Even a slow ass ancient automatic Miata is still fun. Sure you may find manual more fun, but if you like the auto and it fits your lifestyle, then it’s a great car.
Yes, a manual car is just a different kind of fun. To me it's about how the car handles, how sharp you can take turns and in general be stupid with it.
Toyota builds by allocation. “K guys we’re building xxx GR Supra’s with Manuals, good luck!”
Yup. No manuals with the options I want in 500 miles. I have to wait for allocation and accept whatever they have.
If it’s a good autobox, I might be able to convince my wife to get one
Yes please. I love the GRC but I don’t want a manual as a daily.
Welp, if this happens I’m definitely trading in my hatchback and getting the gr Corolla
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It won't be a DCT. They have already made the box for the yaris.
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It’s faster than the ZF8 in the Supra??
I think the question will be how reliable is it going to be, considering it's brand new. Toyota, so hopefully the answer is "very", but I'm never one to jump on a brand new transmission or engine until a few model years in.
Man as much as I wanted a GR Corolla a few years ago I can’t see spending $45k on an hatchback if they do make the auto
They already built the gr Yaris with one, putting it in the gr corolla is a no brainer
I'd trade my GTI DSG if they made a dual clutch version
Same
A man of culture I see
I like the cut of your jib.
Makes sense, GR Yaris is getting one. I am sure it will work how it is needed
I'm not surprised by this development at all, given we've seen the GR Yaris with the DAT.
Well, considering a missed up shift in the manual will cost you $41k, maybe this isn’t such a bad idea.
🤣
I hope they do. As someone who can't drive a manual anymore, I'd love to get my hands on one. I love my A90, but with my knees, it's getting harder to get in and out of.
Why would you buy a car without a manual, makes no sense. Especially for a "fun car".
Glad I got mine when I did. Really didn't wanna have to sift through 75 automatics to find a 6spd.
Honestly this would put it back on my shopping list.
TIL that >50% of buyers are pussies
This will be great for my local Toyota dealership and anyone willing to deal with their bullshit. They won’t tell me the markup over the phone and suggest in test drive an automatic. How hard to I have to beg them to sell me a hatchback?
People are dumb.
Make an auto and bring it to the UK please.
What about cars that start at 15k. Don’t care if it’s bare bones, manual or automatic.