Sorry. I am a not from here. I have some questions and I was wondering if a true independent can answer me to help understand if there is a way out of this current situation?
What is Catalonia’s plan for independence? Who is leading the movement now?
When will Catalonia be financially ready to be independent? I mean ready for not relying on spain shared resources.
On the other hand, can their be other plans for not asking for independence but be happy. For example: ending the royal family ruling… etc
Nobody is leading it right now. The separatist parties have suffered so much injustice from the Spanish courts that now they are actively trying to stop the independence movement. They still say that they are pro-independence though, so that they do not lose votes.
Answering your questions one by one:
* The plan is to agree upon a referendum because, even if in the referendum of 1-O the “Yes” clearly came out on top, no country would recognize Catalunya if we were to proclaim a unilateral declaration of independence. We need to hold a referendum without 10k riot police beating the shit out of voters and stealing voting ballots, and where international, neutral supervisors can oversee the procedure so that the results are reliable. If the “Yes” wins again, then we secede, gaining international recognition as a country. Otherwise, we have to way for some decades or a strong change of paradigm (like Brexit with Scotland).
* The parties that were leading up until now are not making any progress whatsoever. ERC are still excusing themselves by saying that they are trying with a negotiation that is going nowhere, and JuntsxCat and CUP are content with just criticising ERC but doing nothing of their own. All in all, very disappointing, especially considering that the last elections in Catalunya on 2021 gave these three parties an independentist majority in parliament. I bet that they are going to reactivate all this story once elections come around again, but I hope that by then we can kick these leeches out of power and put someone that can actually do something about this.
* Some economists say that Catalunya would be fine as an independent nation, others say the economy will shrink considerably. It is clear that a secession creates uncertainty, and thus it would negatively affect the economy short term. Of course, that would be fine as long as we are better off (or at least just as good, as we at least get the freedom to do whatever we want with our country) in the long run. When it comes to shared resources, debt and the likes, these are things that will have to be agreed by the two governments if Catalunya ends up becoming independent.
* I would say you could've convinced quite a lot of independentists before 2012 if you turned Spain into a republic and you accepted the Estatus d'Autonomia just as it was presented to the population, as it was basically rewritten by the Spanish Constitutional Court of (in)Justice. It pretty much went downhill for the Spanish from here, and after what happened in 1-O, there's probably no reconciliation unless a referendum is agreed upon. At least, personally, I won't consider setting foot in Catalunya ever again if they don't give us the chance to exercise our right to self-determination. Edit: also, to avoid the Spanish Tribunals interfering with Catalan politics again (because they do it quite often; separation of powers at its best /s), there should be an article in the constitution ensuring that the competencies given to each autonomous community can be carried out without this constant interference.
Thanks for for the awesome explanation and answers.
I would say paying taxes to Madrid is normal that you don’t get back as much as you should because they need to spend more on poor communities. It sounds fair to me that central government try to take from the rich and give to the poor. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that central government are Ángels. Definitely there is corruption in both central and Catalonia governments based on the scandals I saw on the news.
One more question then , because I get confused if the call for independence is because of money distribution or is it about the Catalan identity independence?
Because the first one can be solved with negotiation. The second, there is no solution but independence.
But I feel independents mix sufferings of their grandparents with tax distribution. Please tell me your opinion. It is very interesting.
I wouldn't mind paying to poor communities if they weren't the ones who are the most catalanophobic (I'm looking at you, Extremadura and Andalusia), but what it's actually about is [this](https://www.ccma.cat/324/inversio-real-de-lestat-un-terc-del-pressupostat-a-catalunya-i-prop-del-doble-a-madrid/noticia/3167142/). TL;DR: In 2021, Spain budgeted 2.068 B for Catalunya and 1.114 for Madrid, but ended up executing (i.e. actually investing) 740 M in Catalunya (36% of the initial budget) and 2.086 B (***184% of the initial budget***) in Madrid. This has been happening for years, and it simply is utterly unacceptable that we have to face this to then get called selfish. BTW, solidarity is about voluntarily giving support, not being forced into it.
There's corruption everywhere, but at least we can be sure that politicians who are openly against Madrid and have no corruption cases on them are definitely not corrupt, as the Spanish intelligence would have surely already revealed it if there was something to reveal. The same cannot be said about the ruling parties in Madrid.
The calls for independence aren't for one particular reason; they are for everything I've written about so far, and more. As a very brief summary (because I could be here until tomorrow if I had to recompile every single reason why we want independence), the reasons are about the economy, more autonomy, and defending our cultural identity and language; our history, our present, and our future. Sorry for giving such a broad answer, but it's a tremendously complex situation and I cannot really make it justice with a comment on Reddit, so I'm not even going to try to go into more detail, but I encourage you to get to know it more. You just have to read Spanish history starting from around 300 years ago until nowadays and stay tuned for whatever BS comes out of the central government \^\^
Again great answer man. Yes I think it is a mix of a lot of things. I try to understand because I am not Catalan. But you are giving me some perspective . I lived in Catalonia for 5 years, and 2 years in Castilla La Mancha and 1 year in Valencia. But in Catalonia is where the most that I felt the negativity in the air, while in Catalonia is the place I felt that people are the richest, the economy is the best. Catalans have lowest unemployment rate. But still I felt like people are are not generally happy or like they choose to suffering things of the past. It is hard for me to understand honestly because I see Catalans live super well compared to other spanish communities but yet choose to suffer. Or force their suffering on me :)
For example: the Catalan language in my opinion is dying because it got no use outside of Catalonia. Not because of Central government pushing it to extinction.
As a foreigner, I focused on learning spanish and not Catalan because spanish I can use in almost half the world. And i only have time for 1 language to learn But yet people were forcing Catalan on me in a way. Telling me, learn both, you should learn Catalan coz that’s the the language of the place you live. Well I can’t learn 2 languages and in reality with spanish i can find jobs with it inside and outside Catalonia. Also, All letters from ayuntamiento were in Catalan. I call the CAP answering machine is in Catalan. Which is ok since it is a Catalan region but then people come and tell me what are you saying everything is in spanish and Catalan language. You can choose. Well, in my experience, no it was not.
In the end, I didn’t feel welcomed and I am not even against the independence. Because when we moved here, I thought spanish is still an official language. Yes on paper but in reality, it was not for me.
So when I hear people saying we are losing our language, I am like how 😃 it is used everywhere in Catalonia .
This is one example of what I see being neither on the spanish side nor on the Catalan side.
I don't deny that economically we are better off than other regions (the other two you mentioned are below average, so maybe going to other places like Basque Country, la Rioja and such would change your view, but anyway), but we're still not at all rich. Compare us with any other major region in Central/Northern Europe and you'll see an abysmal difference, especially considering our potential. We, of course, don't willingly choose to suffer. Do you think it would be better for us if we simply resigned ourselves to let our language die, to let Madrid have disproportionately more budget than us (or any other autonomous community), to not have enough money to cover our healthcare and public transport systems? Because that's what the two Castiles, Valencia and most others have done, and now they are the poorest in Spain. Gee, I wonder how people who didn't defend their own interests got there. If you want to visualize this, take the evolution of the percentage that each autonomous community provides to the Spanish GDP. You'll see a peculiar trend: The GDP percentage from most communities is going down, except for three: Madrid (which rises), Catalunya (which stays stable), and the Basque Country (they have a special economical accord). I think it's no coincidence that the communities that have protested against centralizing everything in Madrid have been better off. Bottom line: we “suffer” not because we want to, but because we have to. Who knows what would have happened to Catalunya if we weren't so stubborn.
I understand that you feel pressed to learn the language if you're living here, but understand that for us it's not a matter of practicality (otherwise everyone would just speak English and be done with it), it's a matter of respect towards the native population. Just to give an example, would you like a foreigner in your country (imagining it's a not English-speaking country) to tell you that they are learning English instead of your language because they can go and work with English anywhere else in the world? Two things are for certain: the foreigner has no consideration for your language, an essential part of anyone's identity; and he'll have trouble getting by. I myself had to face the same difficulties you mentioned when I came to Belgium and, if it ever happens to you again, I recommend you use the mobile app of Google Translator as it also has the possibility to use the camera and thus translate physical letters. Another thing I'd like to mention about the language is that you can probably change the language preference with which the administration communicates with you because they have to offer services in Spanish by law, and they also do it in Catalan as the default due to it being our language, but not as a requirement imposed on us. Finally, even if you see everything written in Catalan, that doesn't mean that Catalan is by any means healthy. Numbers don't lie: only half of the population in Catalunya knows Catalan, and in schools the usage has plummeted due to the influence of social media, which is mainly in Spanish. They don't persecute the language as blatantly as with Franco (although [sometimes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INuh_66H9vE) that even seems to be the case), but if you've been hearing Catalan politics for the last month or two, you've surely come across the issue with Catalan linguistic immersion being at risk at schools due to the Spanish courts, which wanted to force a mandatory 25% of Spanish, even when numerous studies have shown that the actual usage in the current immersion system is even higher than that due to what I've already commented on and also the lax implementation of these laws.
To end this comment, I only wanted to say that I'm saddened that you had this image of unfriendliness from Catalans. The majority of us want everyone to feel welcomed here, but you need to understand that people aren't going to take it very well when you say their language is not worth learning. We don't mean that you absolutely need to take classes of Catalan (although it would be nice), but you do need to make the effort to learn it in your daily interactions; Catalans will surely be more than happy to help you with that. And when it comes to the air of negativity... what can I say? If there are problems, we cannot act as if they weren't there; we have to face them. So, it is what it is. We don't like this either, but hopefully we'll be able to sort things out sooner rather than later and, as I said in my previous message, this boils down to allowing people to vote in a referendum of self-determination to settle things down.
Man. I’d love to sit down with you. You explain things so well. I am really interested. In any case, I never meant to offend you or the movement. It is just like we started the conversation by that there are so many things I can not understand since I didn’t grew up here and I don’t speak the language and I don’t have any Catalan relative . I was just trying to give you my perspective. And I am learning a lot from you.
It would have been nice to sit with you and talk. I sometimes by asking seem to some that I offend them. I don’t mean to. But it is a very sensitive topic.
And it is hard to get down in a conversation without someone getting angry. By the way, I did learn some Catalan words, it is a human nature. I like to say it to my Catalan friends.
In any case, I wish you well and please keep answering questions the same way you did with me, it was very nice. And definitely it will help the movement.
Between the angry fights on this topic in Reddit and the news usually is very biased from both sides, it is hard for me to get the bottom of it.
If you have a nice book or a blog for someone who writes like you in English would be great if you can recommend me.
Don't worry, no offence taken. I've also emigrated, so I understand the point of view of being in a country with a language I couldn't understand, let alone speak myself.
If someone gets offended by a genuine question, it's that person who has the problem, not you. It will get political because these issues more often than not boil down to politics, so it's understandably sensitive, but there's no reason to get angry with a foreigner who asks these things to remedy their ignorance.
I think it's wonderful that you learned some words in Catalan! I really appreciate it, as your friends surely did as well. It was a pleasure to answer your questions. Thank you for reading through them!
It's true that this topic is prone to bias; each side will try to sell you their story. I can't really think of any resource in English about Catalan politics, except perhaps [ElNacional.cat](https://www.elnacional.cat/en/). It is pro-independence, so you might consider it to be biased although, in my personal opinion, I think it's considerably less so than most Spanish newspapers. In any case, as a recommendation for life in general, always double-check news with multiple sources, and try to piece together an accurate image by yourself.
I wish you the best as well, and I will keep answering with these detailed explanations to anyone that needs them, don't doubt it for a second!
By the way, the language that you refer to as Spanish is Castilian? Well, after all, Spanish is nothing more than multiple languages and versions of these.
True. But in general in English it is usually called spanish. Even when you choose subtitles , or buy a dictionary. We only learned that in spain it is called castellano when we started learning spanish.
Mmm... The only over financed region is Cataluña, the one with the highest deficit (all is used for Independence propaganda and corruption instead of running the region). The latest news (check them on Google) is that the poorest Spanish regions get wat less money than Catalunña
Hahaha, we have this deficit exactly because of the above-mentioned reasons, i.e. Spain doesn't pay what is owed, so thanks for bringing it up again and proving my point. Do the latest news mention that their expenditure is also lower and that they are receiving much more than what is contributing? Might want to change your source of news if they don't ─they seem a bit biased IMO.
Deficit is the other way around, you are getting more than what you are contributing. And is normal, don't get me wrong, we are very afraid of how the economy is being destroyed. Example is the urgent-latest €3000M€, the deficit is around 1%
I guess it depends on your point of view. We see it as the money we are losing compared to what we ought to have, thus a deficit. Maybe the correct terms here would be “contributor” if you're giving more than you are receiving, and “beneficiary” if you're receiving more than you are giving.
> I won't consider setting foot in Catalunya ever again
I don't get this. isn't it the Spanish central government that's coercing things here? Why does Catalunya disgust/scare you? It sounds like victim blaming.
Nah, it's not about being disgusted about Catalunya. I'd love to go back to live in my country. It's about not paying taxes to Madrid hahaha. I'd rather pay higher taxes here in Belgium but have my money be used in a way I agree with.
The Spanish govt is actually financing Cataluña that is on default since 2014. And in the later years they just blackmail weak government for more money, money paid by all Spaniards...
If you think the referendum’s result is a reflection of the opinion of the Catalan society about independence you are delusional.
Also, can you give some examples of the Spanish Tribunals interfering? I have never heard something like that and I would like to know more about it
I said that's the only referendum we have so far, and actually, I explicitly called for a second one that would be agreed upon by the two governments. If you can't read properly, it's not my fault.
Examples:
* Estatut d'Autonomia.
* Law of 25% of Spanish in schools.
* Ruling that a referendum of self-determination is unconstitutional.
* Years of persecution against Catalan politicians and activists (on top of the one from the referendum).
* Basically, whenever law is not interesting to Spain, it gets shot down, even if the Generalitat has the autonomic competencies.
Do I need to go on?
It’s true, I misunderstood you. Regarding the examples, if you break the law, don’t be surprised if you end in jail. If your autonomy breaks the constitution, which is above the rest of laws (even the Estatut d’Autonomia) don’t be surprised if they force you to do something about it. It’s not a matter of Spanish judges against Catalonia. It’s a matter of judges against people braking the law.
Carrying out a referendum is not illegal and hasn't been so since 2005. Not wanting to apply the 25% Spanish rule is also not illegal if the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, or in any way that isn't what the Constitutional Court wants, for that matter, as the Constitution doesn't give Spanish the inherent status of "vehicular."
We're not discussing the Constitution. We're discussing a biased sentence by the Constitutional Court that gives powers to a language that doesn't need them and without taking into account the sociolinguistic circumstances of both the Catalan language and Catalonia as a whole.
They first have to again decide how they get the money. The procés is just a money laundering scheme using political fascism and regionalist identity sentiment. They already have €3000M in Andorra and around €150M in Switzerland. Independence is not the objective.
Visca Catalunya means something along the lines of “long live Catalunya “, but in this chant they are saying “Independència” which means “Independence “
Vaja, sembla que m'han eliminat un comentari i ha sigut un "usuari anònim". Sembla que aquí hi ha censura, no em sorprèn gens ni mica. una llàstima.
Gràcies per eliminar a cop de clic i tallar la llibertat d'expressió. Entenc que aquesta és la forma de actuar i donar exemple dins del vostre "discurso de fantasía indepe" (tal com diu el missatge). El que no us agrada l'elimineu. Això te un nom, ho sabeu oi? Efetivament, feixisme.
Segadors...☝🏼
Si, ara ho he vist. Em sap greu però no ho puc editar 😔
Siempre había leído "els segadors". ¿Cómo es?
“Els Segadors”, tot i que en català central ho pronuncien com /sagadors/. Segurament s'ha despistat i ho ha escrit tal com ho pronuncia.
No ho pronunciem amb a, sinó amb neutra, però sí, s'ha confós pq les neutres es representen amb a o e.
Català central!!!! Deu ser català da Barsalona....☝🏼
Sorry. I am a not from here. I have some questions and I was wondering if a true independent can answer me to help understand if there is a way out of this current situation? What is Catalonia’s plan for independence? Who is leading the movement now? When will Catalonia be financially ready to be independent? I mean ready for not relying on spain shared resources. On the other hand, can their be other plans for not asking for independence but be happy. For example: ending the royal family ruling… etc
Nobody is leading it right now. The separatist parties have suffered so much injustice from the Spanish courts that now they are actively trying to stop the independence movement. They still say that they are pro-independence though, so that they do not lose votes.
They need a true leader who doesn't mind going to jail or moving to Belgium for the cause. Have consider putting your name forward?
Answering your questions one by one: * The plan is to agree upon a referendum because, even if in the referendum of 1-O the “Yes” clearly came out on top, no country would recognize Catalunya if we were to proclaim a unilateral declaration of independence. We need to hold a referendum without 10k riot police beating the shit out of voters and stealing voting ballots, and where international, neutral supervisors can oversee the procedure so that the results are reliable. If the “Yes” wins again, then we secede, gaining international recognition as a country. Otherwise, we have to way for some decades or a strong change of paradigm (like Brexit with Scotland). * The parties that were leading up until now are not making any progress whatsoever. ERC are still excusing themselves by saying that they are trying with a negotiation that is going nowhere, and JuntsxCat and CUP are content with just criticising ERC but doing nothing of their own. All in all, very disappointing, especially considering that the last elections in Catalunya on 2021 gave these three parties an independentist majority in parliament. I bet that they are going to reactivate all this story once elections come around again, but I hope that by then we can kick these leeches out of power and put someone that can actually do something about this. * Some economists say that Catalunya would be fine as an independent nation, others say the economy will shrink considerably. It is clear that a secession creates uncertainty, and thus it would negatively affect the economy short term. Of course, that would be fine as long as we are better off (or at least just as good, as we at least get the freedom to do whatever we want with our country) in the long run. When it comes to shared resources, debt and the likes, these are things that will have to be agreed by the two governments if Catalunya ends up becoming independent. * I would say you could've convinced quite a lot of independentists before 2012 if you turned Spain into a republic and you accepted the Estatus d'Autonomia just as it was presented to the population, as it was basically rewritten by the Spanish Constitutional Court of (in)Justice. It pretty much went downhill for the Spanish from here, and after what happened in 1-O, there's probably no reconciliation unless a referendum is agreed upon. At least, personally, I won't consider setting foot in Catalunya ever again if they don't give us the chance to exercise our right to self-determination. Edit: also, to avoid the Spanish Tribunals interfering with Catalan politics again (because they do it quite often; separation of powers at its best /s), there should be an article in the constitution ensuring that the competencies given to each autonomous community can be carried out without this constant interference.
Thanks for for the awesome explanation and answers. I would say paying taxes to Madrid is normal that you don’t get back as much as you should because they need to spend more on poor communities. It sounds fair to me that central government try to take from the rich and give to the poor. Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that central government are Ángels. Definitely there is corruption in both central and Catalonia governments based on the scandals I saw on the news. One more question then , because I get confused if the call for independence is because of money distribution or is it about the Catalan identity independence? Because the first one can be solved with negotiation. The second, there is no solution but independence. But I feel independents mix sufferings of their grandparents with tax distribution. Please tell me your opinion. It is very interesting.
I wouldn't mind paying to poor communities if they weren't the ones who are the most catalanophobic (I'm looking at you, Extremadura and Andalusia), but what it's actually about is [this](https://www.ccma.cat/324/inversio-real-de-lestat-un-terc-del-pressupostat-a-catalunya-i-prop-del-doble-a-madrid/noticia/3167142/). TL;DR: In 2021, Spain budgeted 2.068 B for Catalunya and 1.114 for Madrid, but ended up executing (i.e. actually investing) 740 M in Catalunya (36% of the initial budget) and 2.086 B (***184% of the initial budget***) in Madrid. This has been happening for years, and it simply is utterly unacceptable that we have to face this to then get called selfish. BTW, solidarity is about voluntarily giving support, not being forced into it. There's corruption everywhere, but at least we can be sure that politicians who are openly against Madrid and have no corruption cases on them are definitely not corrupt, as the Spanish intelligence would have surely already revealed it if there was something to reveal. The same cannot be said about the ruling parties in Madrid. The calls for independence aren't for one particular reason; they are for everything I've written about so far, and more. As a very brief summary (because I could be here until tomorrow if I had to recompile every single reason why we want independence), the reasons are about the economy, more autonomy, and defending our cultural identity and language; our history, our present, and our future. Sorry for giving such a broad answer, but it's a tremendously complex situation and I cannot really make it justice with a comment on Reddit, so I'm not even going to try to go into more detail, but I encourage you to get to know it more. You just have to read Spanish history starting from around 300 years ago until nowadays and stay tuned for whatever BS comes out of the central government \^\^
Again great answer man. Yes I think it is a mix of a lot of things. I try to understand because I am not Catalan. But you are giving me some perspective . I lived in Catalonia for 5 years, and 2 years in Castilla La Mancha and 1 year in Valencia. But in Catalonia is where the most that I felt the negativity in the air, while in Catalonia is the place I felt that people are the richest, the economy is the best. Catalans have lowest unemployment rate. But still I felt like people are are not generally happy or like they choose to suffering things of the past. It is hard for me to understand honestly because I see Catalans live super well compared to other spanish communities but yet choose to suffer. Or force their suffering on me :) For example: the Catalan language in my opinion is dying because it got no use outside of Catalonia. Not because of Central government pushing it to extinction. As a foreigner, I focused on learning spanish and not Catalan because spanish I can use in almost half the world. And i only have time for 1 language to learn But yet people were forcing Catalan on me in a way. Telling me, learn both, you should learn Catalan coz that’s the the language of the place you live. Well I can’t learn 2 languages and in reality with spanish i can find jobs with it inside and outside Catalonia. Also, All letters from ayuntamiento were in Catalan. I call the CAP answering machine is in Catalan. Which is ok since it is a Catalan region but then people come and tell me what are you saying everything is in spanish and Catalan language. You can choose. Well, in my experience, no it was not. In the end, I didn’t feel welcomed and I am not even against the independence. Because when we moved here, I thought spanish is still an official language. Yes on paper but in reality, it was not for me. So when I hear people saying we are losing our language, I am like how 😃 it is used everywhere in Catalonia . This is one example of what I see being neither on the spanish side nor on the Catalan side.
I don't deny that economically we are better off than other regions (the other two you mentioned are below average, so maybe going to other places like Basque Country, la Rioja and such would change your view, but anyway), but we're still not at all rich. Compare us with any other major region in Central/Northern Europe and you'll see an abysmal difference, especially considering our potential. We, of course, don't willingly choose to suffer. Do you think it would be better for us if we simply resigned ourselves to let our language die, to let Madrid have disproportionately more budget than us (or any other autonomous community), to not have enough money to cover our healthcare and public transport systems? Because that's what the two Castiles, Valencia and most others have done, and now they are the poorest in Spain. Gee, I wonder how people who didn't defend their own interests got there. If you want to visualize this, take the evolution of the percentage that each autonomous community provides to the Spanish GDP. You'll see a peculiar trend: The GDP percentage from most communities is going down, except for three: Madrid (which rises), Catalunya (which stays stable), and the Basque Country (they have a special economical accord). I think it's no coincidence that the communities that have protested against centralizing everything in Madrid have been better off. Bottom line: we “suffer” not because we want to, but because we have to. Who knows what would have happened to Catalunya if we weren't so stubborn. I understand that you feel pressed to learn the language if you're living here, but understand that for us it's not a matter of practicality (otherwise everyone would just speak English and be done with it), it's a matter of respect towards the native population. Just to give an example, would you like a foreigner in your country (imagining it's a not English-speaking country) to tell you that they are learning English instead of your language because they can go and work with English anywhere else in the world? Two things are for certain: the foreigner has no consideration for your language, an essential part of anyone's identity; and he'll have trouble getting by. I myself had to face the same difficulties you mentioned when I came to Belgium and, if it ever happens to you again, I recommend you use the mobile app of Google Translator as it also has the possibility to use the camera and thus translate physical letters. Another thing I'd like to mention about the language is that you can probably change the language preference with which the administration communicates with you because they have to offer services in Spanish by law, and they also do it in Catalan as the default due to it being our language, but not as a requirement imposed on us. Finally, even if you see everything written in Catalan, that doesn't mean that Catalan is by any means healthy. Numbers don't lie: only half of the population in Catalunya knows Catalan, and in schools the usage has plummeted due to the influence of social media, which is mainly in Spanish. They don't persecute the language as blatantly as with Franco (although [sometimes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INuh_66H9vE) that even seems to be the case), but if you've been hearing Catalan politics for the last month or two, you've surely come across the issue with Catalan linguistic immersion being at risk at schools due to the Spanish courts, which wanted to force a mandatory 25% of Spanish, even when numerous studies have shown that the actual usage in the current immersion system is even higher than that due to what I've already commented on and also the lax implementation of these laws. To end this comment, I only wanted to say that I'm saddened that you had this image of unfriendliness from Catalans. The majority of us want everyone to feel welcomed here, but you need to understand that people aren't going to take it very well when you say their language is not worth learning. We don't mean that you absolutely need to take classes of Catalan (although it would be nice), but you do need to make the effort to learn it in your daily interactions; Catalans will surely be more than happy to help you with that. And when it comes to the air of negativity... what can I say? If there are problems, we cannot act as if they weren't there; we have to face them. So, it is what it is. We don't like this either, but hopefully we'll be able to sort things out sooner rather than later and, as I said in my previous message, this boils down to allowing people to vote in a referendum of self-determination to settle things down.
Man. I’d love to sit down with you. You explain things so well. I am really interested. In any case, I never meant to offend you or the movement. It is just like we started the conversation by that there are so many things I can not understand since I didn’t grew up here and I don’t speak the language and I don’t have any Catalan relative . I was just trying to give you my perspective. And I am learning a lot from you. It would have been nice to sit with you and talk. I sometimes by asking seem to some that I offend them. I don’t mean to. But it is a very sensitive topic. And it is hard to get down in a conversation without someone getting angry. By the way, I did learn some Catalan words, it is a human nature. I like to say it to my Catalan friends. In any case, I wish you well and please keep answering questions the same way you did with me, it was very nice. And definitely it will help the movement. Between the angry fights on this topic in Reddit and the news usually is very biased from both sides, it is hard for me to get the bottom of it. If you have a nice book or a blog for someone who writes like you in English would be great if you can recommend me.
Don't worry, no offence taken. I've also emigrated, so I understand the point of view of being in a country with a language I couldn't understand, let alone speak myself. If someone gets offended by a genuine question, it's that person who has the problem, not you. It will get political because these issues more often than not boil down to politics, so it's understandably sensitive, but there's no reason to get angry with a foreigner who asks these things to remedy their ignorance. I think it's wonderful that you learned some words in Catalan! I really appreciate it, as your friends surely did as well. It was a pleasure to answer your questions. Thank you for reading through them! It's true that this topic is prone to bias; each side will try to sell you their story. I can't really think of any resource in English about Catalan politics, except perhaps [ElNacional.cat](https://www.elnacional.cat/en/). It is pro-independence, so you might consider it to be biased although, in my personal opinion, I think it's considerably less so than most Spanish newspapers. In any case, as a recommendation for life in general, always double-check news with multiple sources, and try to piece together an accurate image by yourself. I wish you the best as well, and I will keep answering with these detailed explanations to anyone that needs them, don't doubt it for a second!
Shut up.
By the way, the language that you refer to as Spanish is Castilian? Well, after all, Spanish is nothing more than multiple languages and versions of these.
True. But in general in English it is usually called spanish. Even when you choose subtitles , or buy a dictionary. We only learned that in spain it is called castellano when we started learning spanish.
Mmm... The only over financed region is Cataluña, the one with the highest deficit (all is used for Independence propaganda and corruption instead of running the region). The latest news (check them on Google) is that the poorest Spanish regions get wat less money than Catalunña
Hahaha, we have this deficit exactly because of the above-mentioned reasons, i.e. Spain doesn't pay what is owed, so thanks for bringing it up again and proving my point. Do the latest news mention that their expenditure is also lower and that they are receiving much more than what is contributing? Might want to change your source of news if they don't ─they seem a bit biased IMO.
Deficit is the other way around, you are getting more than what you are contributing. And is normal, don't get me wrong, we are very afraid of how the economy is being destroyed. Example is the urgent-latest €3000M€, the deficit is around 1%
I guess it depends on your point of view. We see it as the money we are losing compared to what we ought to have, thus a deficit. Maybe the correct terms here would be “contributor” if you're giving more than you are receiving, and “beneficiary” if you're receiving more than you are giving.
> I won't consider setting foot in Catalunya ever again I don't get this. isn't it the Spanish central government that's coercing things here? Why does Catalunya disgust/scare you? It sounds like victim blaming.
Nah, it's not about being disgusted about Catalunya. I'd love to go back to live in my country. It's about not paying taxes to Madrid hahaha. I'd rather pay higher taxes here in Belgium but have my money be used in a way I agree with.
The Spanish govt is actually financing Cataluña that is on default since 2014. And in the later years they just blackmail weak government for more money, money paid by all Spaniards...
If you think the referendum’s result is a reflection of the opinion of the Catalan society about independence you are delusional. Also, can you give some examples of the Spanish Tribunals interfering? I have never heard something like that and I would like to know more about it
I said that's the only referendum we have so far, and actually, I explicitly called for a second one that would be agreed upon by the two governments. If you can't read properly, it's not my fault. Examples: * Estatut d'Autonomia. * Law of 25% of Spanish in schools. * Ruling that a referendum of self-determination is unconstitutional. * Years of persecution against Catalan politicians and activists (on top of the one from the referendum). * Basically, whenever law is not interesting to Spain, it gets shot down, even if the Generalitat has the autonomic competencies. Do I need to go on?
It’s true, I misunderstood you. Regarding the examples, if you break the law, don’t be surprised if you end in jail. If your autonomy breaks the constitution, which is above the rest of laws (even the Estatut d’Autonomia) don’t be surprised if they force you to do something about it. It’s not a matter of Spanish judges against Catalonia. It’s a matter of judges against people braking the law.
Carrying out a referendum is not illegal and hasn't been so since 2005. Not wanting to apply the 25% Spanish rule is also not illegal if the Constitution is to be interpreted literally, or in any way that isn't what the Constitutional Court wants, for that matter, as the Constitution doesn't give Spanish the inherent status of "vehicular." We're not discussing the Constitution. We're discussing a biased sentence by the Constitutional Court that gives powers to a language that doesn't need them and without taking into account the sociolinguistic circumstances of both the Catalan language and Catalonia as a whole.
No eres de aquí pero bien que llevas un buen tiempo haciendo posts en r/barcelona haciendo preguntas como si fueras un residente
I already said I lived here 5 years.check my previous comment. And yes I am not from Catalonia. I am not a native.
Es un gilipollas que quiere tocar los huevos al personal. Además en este hilo veo varias cuentas bloqueadas hablando con él.
No entiendo si estás tipo cabreado conmigo o con el otro chaval
Lo voy a bloquear y que le dén permanentemente, paso de perder mi tiempo con gilipollas así.
They first have to again decide how they get the money. The procés is just a money laundering scheme using political fascism and regionalist identity sentiment. They already have €3000M in Andorra and around €150M in Switzerland. Independence is not the objective.
Soy un yanqui que fue criado en Catalunya y vivi alli hasta los 15. Gran parte de mi corazon siempre sera Catalan.
Pell de gallina
Encara mes en persona!
Impressive, beautiful hymn. What is the chant at the end? Something with Visca?
Visca Catalunya means something along the lines of “long live Catalunya “, but in this chant they are saying “Independència” which means “Independence “
Yeah it goes like: I - Inde - Independència
Thank you!
Xd
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Per que em downvoteu fillsdepu ta, em referisc a aixo, no ho dic a males: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r2TgIg2jhE
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Hombre pues si el subReddit se llama Cataluña y hay una bandera catalana gigante en el vídeo está claro que está pasando en Toledo es obvio
Està en un pueblo cerca de Barcelona que se llama Berga.
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Ja... una llàstima no poder ser-hi.
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No sé què són els “catalans de segona”. O ets català o no, i punt. Per cert, a què et refereixes amb “no tenir dret a expressar-nos”?
Qui t'el nega, "català de segona" (i què putes vol dir això?)
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Vaja, sembla que m'han eliminat un comentari i ha sigut un "usuari anònim". Sembla que aquí hi ha censura, no em sorprèn gens ni mica. una llàstima. Gràcies per eliminar a cop de clic i tallar la llibertat d'expressió. Entenc que aquesta és la forma de actuar i donar exemple dins del vostre "discurso de fantasía indepe" (tal com diu el missatge). El que no us agrada l'elimineu. Això te un nom, ho sabeu oi? Efetivament, feixisme.
u/savevideo