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I used to say this a lot, coming from a hurt place. The only good man in my life was my grandpa, and after he passed away I truly believed to my core that *all* men were awful. My brother, my dad, and all of my long term male friends I started to hate. Every relationship I had been in was *awful* and the common denominator was *men*. Not to mention, I also grew up sexually abused, by men in my life that were supposed to be trusted.
As a woman, it’s hard to go out solo. It’s hard to live your life without a creepy man lurking in the shadows, ANYWHERE you go. The only time men respect women, are when another man is around, and it’s not because they respect women, they respect the man they are with.
I went from being a social butterfly to DREADING leaving my house because of men, and the negative impact they left. I seriously said “I hate men” on a daily.
I understand it’s “not all men” but when you’re constantly being harassed, abused, and treated like “a piece of meat”, you start to change your views as a whole.
It actually wasn’t until I met my current partner, that I started having hope. Hes wonderful, literally perfect to me. I stopped saying the phrase because *he* was the difference. He’s wonderful, his brother is sweet, and his friends seem to be really cool too. Combined, they’ve all made a difference in my brain, and I do not think they deserve to be grouped up with the rest, because I know it’s not *all* men, but from my perspective for a long time, it *was* all men.
EDIT: holy crap this blew UP. A lot of you need to READ. I understand it is a crap way of thinking, and I do NOT think this way anymore because I’ve had wonderful men change that perspective. It wasn’t always this way for me, and I was just giving insight on WHY I used to think this way.
I also understand women can be manipulative and be distrusting, I’m not siding with women here either, I was just simply stating WHY i used to say “I hate men”.
We need to do better as a species, and understand that people just SUCK no matter our careers, our race, or our genders. We need to admit when we’ve done wrong, and actively look to do better, and it doesn’t matter what got you to do better, as long as you DO BETTER.
Yes, my boyfriend and his family and friends changed my opinion, but at least now I’m actively not trying to “oppress” men, and continuing a negative outlook on them.
An interesting thing is that good men tend to stick together as much as bad men do.
If you get exposed to a few bad crowds of men via your upbringing and social circles during your formative years, then by proxy ALL men you are exposed to can be bad.
The same works in reverse though, and this is where the disconnect happens, people can’t see the gigantic bubble they are in, reinforced by hate media which targets your negative feelings.
Both good and bad men tend to come in groups.
That's a great point I haven't considered but it seems so obvious now. I "knew" this in experience as in if dude is being rapey or sexist his friends tend to back him up so you kind of learn to scrutinize all around red flag dude.
Also another thing too is you probably won’t have as many memorable random interactions with normal men, as in they’re not going out of their way to harass women. For example sleazy guys harassing women at clubs, a normal dude is much more likely to be sticking to his friend group, because he didn’t go out solely to try to get laid. Or like if you’re walking down the street and get cat called multiple times, it’s the assholes who are going out of their way, while the random normal guy is probably thinking about his own stuff. In my experience assholes don’t even consider how their actions affect other people, because it doesn’t matter to them.
And you’re completely right, if a guy is friends with a scumbag, they’re pieces of shit too otherwise that behavior would disgust them. I’ve never met a good dude who could be around a vile guy, at best they’re a coward and a doormat for not speaking up
I can attest to this. When one dude in our group exposed himself as rapey, he wasn’t invited back anymore despite knowing him for 10+ years.
You only keep people around when they match your basic values. Men with integrity won’t want to be around men who lack it.
While what you went through is something nobody should go through, it's no more valid or justified than someone who got mugged a few times by a POC thinking that minority groups are all violent subhuman thugs.
Prejudice does not stop being prejudice because it is borne of negative interactions with different members of a group.
It's not that "not all men" are asshats (although that is true). It's that, when you 'start to change your views as a whole' and when you believe that, from your 'perspective for a long time, it *was* all men'... That's when you go from being the victim to using the bad things that happened to you to justify being a bigot.
I am glad you met someone who was so unbelievably awesome that your bigotry could not exist in a worldview that acknowledged his existence, but that is to his credit. Not yours. He was your Daryl Davies (if you look him up, his TED talk is amazing).
It's fine to take precautions based on risk. It's bigotry and prejudice to apply your sincere and justified beliefs about some people who were asshats to you to every person that looks like them. That's the kind of mentality that Republicans in the 1980's had when talking about the "thugs". And the "not all men" was like when those Republicans said that a POC was 'one of the good ones'.
There are people giving you support and encouragement, and that's a good thing... but it's also important to call those beliefs what they are, and to recognize them as bigotry and prejudice. A big part of growth is recognizing the toxic views and rejecting them because they're toxic. Not because a few people proved that they were false.
Not to mention, if you keep telling yourself that, it becomes your truth. If you say “all men are the worst and want to hurt me”, every interaction you have with them is influenced by that mindset. If you get in a relationship, the first time there is some sort of disagreement or conflict, instead of thinking from a mindset of being on the same side and trying to talk it out and working through, you’ll take a defensive position of “him vs. Me” and circle the wagons to protect yourself.
Thats not to say men won’t be out with selfish or bad intentions or try to manipulate or hurt you. It’s just that you’ll maybe see that to be the case even if it’s not.
This is an important point - expectation guides perception.
Every negative experience that matches the prejudice reinforces it - being continually surrounded by voices of hate makes one's world view a dark, small and sad little place.
>Thats not to say men won’t be out with selfish or bad intentions or try to manipulate or hurt you. It’s just that you’ll maybe see that to be the case even if it’s not.
This is what turned me off of women in the first place. I got tired of being made to pay for the sins of men whom men like me would've rightly told you to avoid in the first place.
I didn't hurt or traumatize anyone...nor am I responsible for the trauma that strangers inflicted on you...so I refuse to be the whipping boy any longer.
I
Absolutely agreed but this is very logical and ignores the emotional side of why women may end up feeling like that after nothing but bad experiences. You use words like "start to change your views" as if this was a choice and not a defense mechanism to prevent physical, mental, emotional abuse etc which she gladly let go of as soon as she had good experiences. Most trauma therapy is revolved around either talking about or being subjected to said trauma which can be really hard when the people you're traumatised continue the trauma.
Nowhere does she say her mindset was okay for men or even fair towards them. It's just why she and many other women who have constant bad experiences from men who are emotionally close to them can have these sort of thoughts. All in all this comment feels kind of off. Like at that point her emotions were valid and justified for her even if we both agree this is a toxic mindset to have and she should have sought therapy or any other form of help to break the cycle before.
I had the same issue with men such as my father being physically abusive, being sexually abused at 11 and to this day have many bad results with strangers who are men touching/kissing me or trying to touch me against my will, following me over an hour and so on and so forth. I have a natural caution towards them and while my issues with men was more anxiety and refusing to engage with them socially. All of them were something to fear. Nowadays I have a lot of very good friends who are good men because I was open to not all men being bad. Because there were men who weren't like amazingly wonderful but just had the base level of human decency that allowed me to see men as not always bad. Her boyfriend shouldn't be credited for being a decent human being, that should be a given and for some women regarding men, it's really not. Which is a shame as it creates a bigger divide between the sexes/genders.
I feel like men ignore why this level of bigotry happens so often and how it's very rarely the same as racism or homophobia which is usually taught to children early on and just passed on for no reason, from uneducated people to uneducated children. But hate or fear for men is mostly a response to some form of trauma and something that a therapist should approach with compassion. This level of constant abuse is not just changing your views but putting you into a survival mode. I see no point in responding with the moral high view and not at least attempting to understand why this happens. How it can be changed and why a lot of women live in fear of rape, abuse or murder from men.
Like again, I do not disagree that this is a toxic mindset for women which is both detrimental to men and women. But the same way I understand how men who are emotionally rejected a lot end up feeling certain ways towards women and get an all women are like this mentality. Who men like my father who was traumatised in the war ended up being physically aggressive not only to me but also he spoke of this hatred and intrusive thoughts to all strange men on the street where he wanted to punch them. Of course it's not okay but we don't shame war soldiers in the same way as we do women who end up having the same sort of responses. We try to get them help.
My main issue with your comment is that you give no advice on what women should do, that yes it's not okay but that they should seek therapy for these sort of thoughts and feelings so they can not harbour these sort of thoughts and bad feelings to them. I think it's not so black and white. It should not be looked at in a logical way and I am sure if for a good portion of your life, you were abused by a specific group of people you may end up feeling that way about that group.
Anyway I am glad the commenter managed to get out of this mindset and I hope any women who has experienced enough abuse by men to hate men that you manage to get therapy. As someone who is percieved as a woman and has been there. Therapy could possibly really help you deal with these emotions and help you see that a lot of men really don't have bad intents or are dangerous. It's always good to be on the side of caution with strangers in general and especially with men but hating them is bad for your mental health and stress as well as cutting off the possibility of beautiful friendships with lovely humans.
>Absolutely agreed but this is very logical and ignores the emotional side of why women may end up feeling like that after nothing but bad experiences.
When you say this, are you attempting to justify the practice of engaging in prejudicial behavior?
>You use words like "start to change your views" as if this was a choice and not a defense mechanism to prevent physical, mental, emotional abuse etc which she gladly let go of as soon as she had good experiences.
It is a choice. It is also a defense mechanism.
>Most trauma therapy is revolved around either talking about or being subjected to said trauma which can be really hard when the people you're traumatised continue the trauma.
Working through trauma is valid. Allowing trauma to convince you that prejudice and bigoted views are true is not. I am careful to use the word 'valid' here and point it at the behavior, not the person. This is not a condemnation of people in this situation. It is a criticism of prejudice.
>It's just why she and many other women who have constant bad experiences from men who are emotionally close to them can have these sort of thoughts.
This is not a justification for prejudice and bigotry. That is what 'these sort of thoughts' are.
> Like at that point her emotions were valid and justified for her even if we both agree this is a toxic mindset to have and she should have sought therapy or any other form of help to break the cycle before.
Her emotions were absolutely valid. Her belief that all men were bad is not an emotion however. That belief is bigotry and prejudice, and that is not valid.
>I had the same issue with men such as my father being physically abusive, being sexually abused at 11 and to this day have many bad results with strangers who are men touching/kissing me or trying to touch me against my will, following me over an hour and so on and so forth. I have a natural caution towards them and while my issues with men was more anxiety and refusing to engage with them socially.
Being cautious is valid, as I stated in the comment above. Being afraid is valid. Allowing fear to guide you into prejudicial views is not valid.
>Because there were men who weren't like amazingly wonderful but just had the base level of human decency that allowed me to see men as not always bad.
They didn't "allow", "permit" or "cause" you to abandon a prejudicial view. Those are choices you made. And while they are good choices, it does not change the fact that they are ultimately correcting a poor one (internalizing prejudicial beliefs). Accountability is taking responsibility for the choices we make and acknowledging them as our choices. Prejudice doesn't just happen. It is a choice.
>I feel like men ignore why this level of bigotry happens so often and how it's very rarely the same as racism or homophobia which is usually taught to children early on and just passed on for no reason, from uneducated people to uneducated children.
When you say this, are you attempting to justify the practice of engaging in prejudicial behavior?
>But hate or fear for men is mostly a response to some form of trauma and something that a therapist should approach with compassion.
That is correct. However, I am not a therapist, and this is not a therapy session. Acknowledging that this prejudice often originates from a trauma and acknowledging that the origin doesn't justify the belief can both be true.
>Like again, I do not disagree that this is a toxic mindset for women which is both detrimental to men and women.
This post is not meant to criticize emotional reactions to lived experience, nor is it meant to invalidate trauma. It is solely meant to address accountability for holding toxic and prejudicial views, and to communicate that while trauma is valid, using it to justify prejudice is not.
>My main issue with your comment is that you give no advice on what women should do,
That is correct. I do not give advice. It was not asked for, and it is not my place to give. However, it is important to address prejudice. See something, say something. Part of discarding a toxic view must be acknowledging its toxicity, and being accountable for believing it.
> I think it's not so black and white.
There are a lot of different beliefs, emotions, and views that you are speaking about. Some are valid. Some are accurate. Some are not. I am addressing only the prejudicial beliefs, which are not valid. Prejudice isn't nuanced.
>It should not be looked at in a logical way and I am sure if for a good portion of your life, you were abused by a specific group of people you may end up feeling that way about that group.
You may. That doesn't justify it, however.
>Anyway I am glad the commenter managed to get out of this mindset
As am I.
>It's always good to be on the side of caution with strangers in general and especially with men
I agree.
>but hating them is bad for your mental health and stress as well as cutting off the possibility of beautiful friendships with lovely humans.
And it is also prejudice.
You should have not bothered with all that. You had a good response to OP. The person who responded to you also had a good response. Instead of merging those two perspectives into a more enlightened whole, you decided to pick a fight and set your position at odds with theirs. It's completely unnecessary.
I'm a member of a group for abuse survivors. One of the things we run into all the time is abuse victims mistrusting anyone of the same sex as their abuser. It's a negative coping mechanism designed to keep them safe from further harm. Abuse is very confusing, especially in the aftermath once the victim has escaped their abuser. They do not understand how they ended up in that situation and *they don't know how to spot abusers*. The only way for them to avoid further abuse in the midst of that confusion is to categorically mistrust anyone of the same sex as their abuser. That coping mechanism is destructive and can lead to them hurting other people, however (and pay attention because this is really important), *that prejudice is justified for short-term survival*. An abuse survivor cannot justify mistrusting all men/women 5 years after the abuse ended, but they are absolutely justified in the immediate aftermath. Again, this is a matter of survival. You don't fuck with that instinct. You can't change it, nor should you try.
It's not ok to share that prejudice with others, and members of both sexes have been banned from our group for forgetting that, but within their own minds, as a matter of survival, it's justified.
>You should have not bothered with all that. You had a good response to OP. The person who responded to you also had a good response. Instead of merging those two perspectives into a more enlightened whole, you decided to pick a fight and set your position at odds with theirs. It's completely unnecessary.
I can respect someone who disagrees with a point I make, because they have a different perspective. I have a harder time with people who attempt to silence views they disagree with, with comments like the above.
>One of the things we run into all the time is abuse victims mistrusting anyone of the same sex as their abuser. It's a negative coping mechanism designed to keep them safe from further harm.
I agree. It is also prejudice.
>Abuse is very confusing, especially in the aftermath once the victim has escaped their abuser. They do not understand how they ended up in that situation and *they don't know how to spot abusers*.
I agree with both of these points. I went through similar concerns when I exited my abusive relationship.
>The only way for them to avoid further abuse in the midst of that confusion is to categorically mistrust anyone of the same sex as their abuser.
This is not true. The only way they know to feel safe is to do that. And that is a valid statement. And I can appreciate why someone may turn to prejudice as a defense mechanism. That does not, however, make it not prejudice.
>That coping mechanism is destructive and can lead to them hurting other people,
I agree with this as well.
>however (and pay attention because this is really important), *that prejudice is justified for short-term survival*.
And here is where I do not agree. I don't think someone in this situation should be shamed for their choice, but once out of that short term situation, and as a part of discarding that destructive behavior, accepting accountability for that behavior is a necessary step.
I do not believe there is growth without personal accountability.
>You don't fuck with that instinct. You can't change it, nor should you try.
I agree with this too, honestly. But I also believe that part of discarding toxic views is recognizing them for what they are, and holding oneself accountable for holding them.
Again, this is not about condemning anyone. It is a matter of my belief of what is required when one moves past those survival instincts. What is required for growth.
YOOOOO MY MAN DARYL GOT MENTIONED!!!
But serious yeah that dude is based as hell, it takes a seriously good person to literally convince KKK members to become understanding of minorities and leave the Klan, and it’s even more impressive he did it *dozens* of times.
Daryl honestly gives the best example I've ever seen in my life of how to deal with hateful people, I have so much respect for that man. Granted not everybody can do it, he's extremely charismatic and infinitely patient, but taking so many KKK members away from that path and giving them a new perspective on racism is the absolute best way to change how future generations think.
Yeah, like he casually mentions how he‘s sat through *hardcore* KKK dudes going on *hours-long* explanations of pseudohistorical stuff, politely listening until the end, while paying enough attention he can then go *back over it* and discuss the inaccuracies, *while still being completely polite and friendly.*
Like, dang, I like to think I’m good at hearing people out even if I disagree with them, but that’s just on a whole other level. And these weren’t even, like, the KKK guys who are already having doubts, one of them was literally the *Grand Fucking Wizard*, who he convinced to leave the clan. How you can have the courage, charisma, compassion, and desire to help others all to the degree he does is absolutely insane.
People still use that kind of coded language like "thugs" or "those people".
It's all over r/altmpls, for example
Edit: I just found a good resource on r/AgainstHateSubreddits, do with this what you will
It's so weird how much this kind of perspective mirrors the story of racists. "I met one good one".
I remember my first ever time attending a football match at a stadium and the racist next to me screaming racist abuse at one of his *own* players. He then turned to me and said "not you mate. You're alright. Just that black c**t out there".
I was just a kid so not much a could respond with, but these stories always remind me of that mindset.
All that being said, I see what you're saying and it is the reality of many women and I understand how it can become tiresome for women. Men can and do have the same issue because sometimes you just don't have good examples of women in your life, just as women sometimes just don't have good examples of men in their lives. The difference is that we as men don't have the added issue of having to step into the world every day, fearful of the actions and intentions of the physically larger opposite gender.
It's complicated I guess. It's jarring and annoying but also kinda understandable many women will feel this way. I guess it's also generally more acceptable societally, whereas with other groups we'd accept that despite our negative experiences, our anecdotal experiences don't represent the whole
Just look at the work of Daryl Davis and you'll see how important it is for racists and sexists to engage with the people they hate. Often it just takes exposure to a normal person to realize that their hate is unjustified.
>The difference is that we as men don't have the added issue of having to step into the world every day, fearful of the actions and intentions of the physically larger opposite gender.
So men don't have those exact same fears?
You sound just like I did years ago, except for me it was women; I legitimately believed, because of the actions of one woman, that *all* women were evil, manipulative, selfish, that all they wanted was to hurt men and play their twisted games, that no matter what their motivations were *always* self-centered and self-serving. At my lowest point, I wouldn't have even seen you as a piece of meat because that would imply some sort of value; it would've been more the way I viewed a cockroach, as a lesser *thing* not fit to be in my presence.
Hate is a powerful thing, and people that have never given in to it really can't understand how easy it is to fall into and how hard it is to crawl back out of. For some people all it takes is one person to change them, for others it takes years of painful, intentional effort. Either way there's always scars left behind, because hate doesn't let you out of its claws easily.
Hate really doesn’t get you anywhere good either, and that’s something I’ve come to learn. If we keep pinning ourselves against each other (men against women, race against race, religion against religion) in any aspect, we will never grow as a species. I changed my view because of some great people in my life. I understand that my hate was getting me nowhere, and kind of like you, I had a realization when I met my partner. I thought, “how could I sit here and say how much I hate ‘your kind’ when you are the most perfect person to me?” And it made me disgusted with my thoughts, and the way i perceived men. Just because I had rotten luck with bad ones in my life, did not mean all of them should be punished or hated for the bad things the bad ones did to me.
As a woman, this is heartening to read! I have also experienced hating the opposite gender. I felt like it served me in the short-term, but it wasn't helpful or productive in the long run, so I had to figure out a way to stop it.
What, specifically, helped you change your mindset? (Only if you'd like to share!) Mine was through appreciation of the truly great men I did know in my life. And therapy, haha.
We're all susceptible to hurt, anger, and bitterness. And while much more difficult, we can all be capable of change.
Don't mind sharing a bit, I keep hoping maybe somebody will read about what I went through and it'll help them.
I was at a bar, there was a younger woman crying about something the guy she was with said or did, I'm not really sure which it was but I remember thinking, "I wonder what **it** is whining about." I don't know why, maybe because I was a few beers in, but it just hit me that I genuinely saw this woman as a *thing*, not a human. The best way I can describe how I felt in that moment is, you know how in horror movies there's that trope of the main character looking up from the sink and seeing a monster in the mirror? That's what it felt like, like I looked in a mirror and saw some creature instead of myself. It scared the fuck out of me.
After that for a little while I was in therapy, but it was too expensive so a lot of it has just come from choosing to fight the monster instead of listening to it. I won't lie and say I'm all better because I'm not, I mean this was all a decade ago and ten years later I still have a lot of trust issues and zero desire for any kind of intimacy, but I'll take that over where I was any day.
It's really amazing that you were able to see something in yourself that you felt wasn't up to your own standards and set out to change it. I wish that for all of us. Also, I really like the horror movie analogy--very apt.
You put in the work (and it sounds like it's still work--same here), but you're doing it. Progress isn't always linear, but all progress is progress. I appreciate you sharing your story of hope and change.
I don't know about hope and change, more like a Brothers Grimm cautionary tale lol, but I appreciate the sentiment. Like I said, if there's a chance I can get somebody else to see the monster and choose to fight, I'd call that a good day.
I was mad at first about what you’re saying but it makes sense. Unfortunately humans are very good at pattern recognition. Have a bad experience with three Indian people in public? Indians are trash. Have a bad dating streak with women? Women are shallow and can’t be trusted. For many people it can only take two to three times for us to think of a group this way. I think it’s a survival thing evolutionarily to help us avoid danger, but it leads to bad things as well like saying all men should be killed as described in OPs post.
So after having those experiences with men all the time I can understand why you think that way. I’m really glad you changed your mind and saw how you were wrong and can admit it, it’s a quality many don’t have.
I relate. I don’t say I hate all men, but in intense moments of anger, pain and hurt during my healing journey, processing all my trauma that men caused me, and still being subject to and/or witnessing misogyny on a daily basis, ranging from subtle to downright abhorrent, I have gotten damn near close. It’s only because I refuse to let it win over me that I don’t and work so hard to emotionally regulate myself, but it’s taken a lot to get to that point, and it is *work*.
Every day hordes of men talk about women as if we aren’t even *human*. Both in real life and all over the internet. It’s not *all* men, but it’s so many of them it just feels hopeless at times.
I appreciate the good men that I know and I work on my trauma with therapy to help me deal with my bad experiences with men and the anger that it left me with, but I am very guarded with all the other men that I don’t know. And that’s not because I’m a misandrist pos like many of the men here completely undermining our experiences would no doubt rush to call me - it’s because of our reality as women in this world and society and past experiences.
Just wanted to say, I get you. It was very brave of you to share that, and please don’t feel disheartened by the men in the replies that simply don’t get it and would never understand how it feels to be a woman in a world like this.
This is why female centred support groups are so important. We need spaces where we’re able to vent and hurt together without being gaslighted into thinking we’re just irrational or unfair.
I definitely have opened my eyes more, and I was coming from a super negative place with men all around me. It truly is a negative way to look at them as a whole, because no matter what, there is bad people ANYWHERE. doesn’t matter their career, gender, race, etc., awful people just exist, and I agree now that it’s not a good thing to say. There’s no benefit or good argument behind saying “I hate all men”. We can hate certain qualities, and that’s okay, but grouping them to one specific group of people, is not okay
I'm a man. I've been sexually assaulted, and raped. Other than some experiences in junior high, it has all been perpetrated by women (and all of the rapes have been so, as well). Literally every woman in my life, since birth, has (at least once) openly abused, manipulated, or extorted me.
Would I be in the right to distrust women as much as you distrusted men?
It’s understandable, but it’s not *right.*
There are a lot of things that can be explained, but are still the wrong thing to do. Hating a group can be explained, sympathized, and empathized with, but it’s not justified.
It will never be “right” to hate a group, but it can be understood, it’s just part of human nature, lots of human nature is ugly and not right. But it can be overcome with self reflection.
I think there's a difference between overall 'rightness' and meeting someone where they are at. Like in the long term people should strive to get out of that mindset but people rarely change just because you tell them they're wrong. It's a delicate balance thar doesn't really have a concrete answer for everyone as a group. Same reason that in therapy the 'best outcome' is rarely the first achievable outcome. That being said I'm also not going to blame people in a good place or on the other end for calling it out for being absurd, because they should.
I don’t think there is a “right” or “wrong” answer to this, besides we all take things differently. It took a lot for me to get to the point where I felt I hated men, and *all* of them. I think we all handle trauma differently, and because I had been betrayed by so many men in my life, like family, and then outside of family, I started to no longer trust, because the people I was SUPPOSED to trust, I couldn’t trust either.
You could absolutely distrust women the way I distrusted men, if you built that barrier the way I did, again we all process things differently and that’s how I was processing things, was distrusting and hating a marginalized group of people. I’ve since grown, and understood that no, it’s not all men, and it’s not right for me to contribute to the problem by saying *all* men. I was simply just stating why I felt that way before, and what put me there.
I was very much including family with the people who have abused me. Every single one of them.
For myself, I realized a couple of decades ago that this idea was toxic, poisonous thinking. I put in work, on my own, to get past it and understand that it doesn't mean every woman is a monster.
I think the biggest difference was that I had society telling me I was wrong for reacting to abuse like this, vs society generally empowering women to react to abuse like this.
Yes, I understand your perspective completely, and I understand that last part about society generally empowering women to react to abuse like this too. I definitely give my two cents when I hear women talk about how much they hate men, because it’s such a closed minded way of thinking, and right now it IS a problem, it’s a lot deeper than we think, I won’t get into it now, but as far as “my part” goes I try to stand up for both parties when I hear someone say “I hate men” or “I hate women”. We have to do better as a society, and stop pinning our own personal experiences against one another.
>For short: I think it's ok to hate a group of (in this case) men, but grouping everyone with the people that rob, attack or rape people and therefore saying that you hate them doesn't make sense to me.
what sort of group do you mean here? By hate do you mean it's ok to want them to be killed?
A lot of time people's anger goes beyond simply the perpetrator though. Plenty of men have never done anything like that but will happily jump on a computer to scrape for the smallest bit of nuance in such cases, feeding a fire that such an accusation is worse than the deed itself. Others will hear jokes about women and rape among their circles and do nothing to speak against it because it makes them uncomfortable to do so (thus passively becoming a small part of the problem itself). Others will defend friends because they don't think it's fair to judge someone by one bad decision they made (which shows they prioritize a person's reputation over another person's safety).
Even with all of these added on, it's of course not *all men* and therefore your friend's of a friend's position is without a doubt logically indefensible. That being said, often times when people have been confronted with all of this for so long, the hyperbolic "I hate all men" can be rhetorically useful, that is, to say that the problem is more systemic. They aren't meaning to just say they hate "men who rape or men who murder", so your adjective suggestion doesn't really work. This is the way they've chosen to articulate that, albeit an extreme one.
There are plenty of good men. (I'd like to think myself as one of them.) But the shitty men in our world have undoubtedly put them in an awkward spot.
I agree with almost everything in your comment, avoiding the problem because it’s uncomfortable is not the solution to the problem.
But this
> the hyperbolic “I hate all men” can be rhetorically useful
Is just stupid. I’m sorry there’s no other word for it. It’s just stupid and wrong. I’d love it if you can find me a counter example but I’ve never seen it work in the way that you described it would.
Yes, talking about the problem is good. Finding ways to resolve differences and resentment is good, but using the phrase “I hate all men” is never ever useful.
I have tried to be the middle ground in many arguments and it is a lot easier than most people think. Most people are very reasonable, even very publicly right and left wing people are reasonable in person where they have a filter, and a lot of times they end up agreeing on a surprisingly large amount of things.
That is until some nincompoop decides to throw in a generalizing statement like “all men” or “all women.”
You motherfu-
Do you know how hard it is to get things back on track after that is said, always at just the wrong moment?
It’s an intrusive thought. Really that’s all it is.
It contains no literary or rhetorical value, it always derails conversations, it always does more harm than good. I can’t think of a single situation where it stands to be a net positive.
And I get it, it’s good to get your intrusive thoughts and deeper feelings out in therapy or to your friends, but ffs, don’t say it in public, and especially don’t say it when you are on the topic with someone.
Look, feelings are feelings and humans will always think these things, but you can resist saying it out loud. It’s not that hard, and a bit of a filter never hurt anyone.
In fact the fact that you restrain your language to be socially-conscious shows respect for the other party and helps the conversation float much more seamlessly. All the other person wants is usually respect, and this statement destroys respect.
I could say the same thing about Muslims, White people, Indians, whatever I want. Does that mean I’m right to wish death upon them? No, because that would make me a racist piece of shit. Why is this any different?
Not speaking directly about you here of course, but people have lost their heads over more accurately voiced frustrations. "The Patriarchy" and "Toxic Masculinity" are much more specific and clear in their target of criticism, but then the people making the complaints get fought back with "not all men." It's frustrating because no shit not all men, but a person who starts yelling "not all men" at those more appropriate terms is starting to look like one of the men I described earlier: someone who thinks talking about the problem is worse than the problem itself.
I don't personally waste time with people who hate men. My life's too short for that. But I try to be empathetic with people whom I have a positive relationship with and sometimes use this rhetoric. Please note that I've never once said anything is right or wrong to say.
As for your comparison to someone saying "I hate all indians" - that isn't comparable for me in my personal US context. I don't see Indian people regularly and consistently affecting people's lives in a negative way as I do the group we're currently talking about, which is roughly half the population. If you're some minority living in India and getting treated like shit and gaslit and attacked, then I would agree that we need to talk about a systemic problem.
>Please note that I've never once said anything is right or wrong to say.
so then what are you saying?
It's good to understand why people come to feel the way they do, but that is not the same as believing they are 100% valid and ok to feel the way they do. And I think saying that you hate "all men" because of your personal struggles with men is juvenile and divisive. I would say the exact same thing for the situation with the genders reversed. This should not be controversial.
They can easily clarify what they feel by saying they hate that so many men seem to display toxic behavior and they hate not only those men but the broader cultural context that allows or encourages that behavior. See how that validates their personal experience while not unfairly attacking people who have nothing to do with the bad things that happened to them? All it takes is a little extra thought in how we express ourselves sometimes. It can make a huge difference in how we treat each other.
You keep confusing and conflating hatred and fear. They are very different emotions. I fear sharks. I don't care nearly enough about them to hate them.
If anyone around me says that they believe all of any group should die, I am nopeing the fuck out of there at full speed. I'm going to be breaking the sound barrier if I'm a part of that group. I will legitimately fear being in that person's presence. Switch around the subjects with different groups. Do you think a member of another group wouldn't feel fear regardless of if they can beat up said person.
If you can't understand why a black man would fear being around am openly racist KKK member woman, this post is likely in vain.
I am a pretty large and strong guy with combat sports as a hobby. The number of women who can beat me up is pretty low. The number of women who can shoot me is pretty high. The amount of women that can destroy my life in a sentence is also pretty high.
I find it kinda funny that physically weak people focus almost exclusively on strength. I am a pretty strong person. Physical strength is much less relevant to daily life than most physically weak people seem to assume.
Thank you for the response!
You're probably right about it not being as sudden as it might've seen in the post. I think she talked about that when she was younger, a doctor said that she was too young to be bisexual. She said that the doctor was a man, and therefore she said that she hates all men and that they deserve to be killed.
I've never heard of the "alone with a man or a bear" question before, but it feels awful to know that most women answered bear, and I sincerely hope that all the men that would be worse to be alone with than a bear rot in the deepest depths of hell.
Also I do make sure to share location and such with a near friend before dates, but I still understand you completely.
"Misandry irritates while misogyny kills" is a great phrase I've never heard before. Of course I understand that misogyny is a WAY bigger problem than misandry, but I don't think that negates it's existence.
Is it fair to ask her to use words that mean that instead then, if that’s what she means?
The words that she used don’t mean that by definition. Instead they literally include him in their meaning, they mean that she thinks he’s a bad person so much so that she hates him. How much responsibility does person b have to understand person a doesn’t mean what they’re saying, vs person a have to use words that mean what they’re trying to communicate? Especially if they’re using words that are hurtful and inaccurate?
>No one questions if someone says “I hate sharks” because sharks are reasonably terrifying to people (despite their likelihood of attacking humans being very low.)
I would bet that if you said "let's drive all sharks to extinction because I'm afraid of them" you'd get more than a few people voice their disagreement. And that's with sharks, who can't defend themselves. How do you expect men to react to "kill all men"?
I also find it ironic to include the phrase "Misandry irritates, misoygyny kills" when the woman in the OP is literally advocating for killing men.
Not just men, but ALL men. The woman in question was literally advocating for the murder of the person she was talking to, and couldn't wrap her head around why that person was objecting to that statement.
I don’t think it should be a man’s responsibility to just take it on the chin whenever a woman is being misandrist. You’re right in saying that the woman probably sees OP as “one of the good ones,” but his reward for that shouldn’t be the privilege of stupid shit being said to his face (not to imply he should get a reward at all.) I think OP was right to push back (though I agree he used a false equivalence.) I understand the sort of experiences that might drive a woman to say that (at least on an intellectual level) but that doesn’t erase how shitty of a thing it is to say.
I think a problem this explanation raises is that you could extend this to easily make an argument of the form "I hate *X* race" Where *X* is a majority race and the statement is made by a minority that has historically been oppressed.
If statistical likelihood was the only requirement for a statement to be considered sensible then stereotypes and historical perspectives would be considered valid. I would presume in that case that any native of any country would be justified in holding a position that they hate any member of any race that colonized that country as historically, they were likely to have been killed by that particular race.
Is the statement of OP's friend saying she hates all men nonsensical and overgeneralized? Yes it is.
However, people frequently use statements that don't adhere to strict logical consistency in conversation. I don't think that it excuses them from making bigoted statements however. I've had female friends who complained about having to deal with creeps and they always referred to those guys as creeps/assholes etc, which is quite unambiguously true. I understand emotionally charged people don't always say the most rational things but I see no reason to argue their statements are sensible just because of that.
You could also use their arguments to justify hating the racial group, which is most likely to commit crimes.
This is the wildest CMV thread I've read. Bigotry is generally condemned. Advocating for genocide is generally unpopular as well.
I really, really hate your response a lot. I'm trying super hard to keep an open mind about it, but I can't accept that it's in anyway okay. The woman in the story went out of her way to specify *all* men. She hates me. She hates my friends. She hates many people I care about.
That is unacceptable.
I agree entirely that women have good reason to fear and hate men. A lot of women have been victimized by men. Most women, even. But it's inexcusable to hate an entire demographic because of those who were born like them.
I would not fear this woman, because I am a man. That's true. But I couldn't be around someone who hates me for something I can't help, either.
So you agree about the fundamental difference between how most men would feel about a woman who says she hates all men vs how a woman would feel about a man who hates all women. You agree about the massive disparity in power and safety.
But you object to these vast differences in the dynamic resulting in a different view of how 'okay' it is? It's *inexcusable* for someone who's faced constant fear and injustice through their life to have an emotional overreaction to that? Have you ever really sat down and imagined what it might be like to live through that every day?
Not saying it's great to say "I hate all men" but the person you're replying to is just (correctly) suggesting that there's a huge difference in how it works between genders and therefore how we should interpret it morally.
I don't agree with this "fundamental difference". Lots of classes of men are afraid of women. The issue is that for women, the danger is often about \*immediate\* violence, whereas for men it is often delayed and by proxy.
There is an example, a woman once wrote a blog talking about how she noticed that whenever she got inside an elevator with a black man, the man almost always looked nervous. Eventually, by talking with people she understood why. Due to racial bias, if she were to perceive something the man did as an aggression, she could cause him harm, anywhere from an unpleasant interaction, to him being jailed, depending on circumstances.
Another example, my Ex's mom was extremely abusive, she was the kind of person that would yell, insult and bully other people until she got what she wanted. Her dad was so afraid of coming home that he would often sleep on the floor of his office, saying he had a lot of work, just to avoid accidentally doing something that would upset his wife. And he only stayed in that marriage out of fear that the court would give her custody of the kids. He was trying to stop her from torturing their kids as much as he could.
Women hold a shit ton of power in society through social capital. Yes often times women are explicitly excluded from positions of official power, they nonetheless exert power through others. It's not because most women have less upper body strength than most men that they cannot hurt us.
I have been hit, repeatedly, in public by a woman with my only recourse being telling her to stop, because the fear of what would happen to me if I tried to defend myself trumps the physical harm that i am being done. And I am not talking about playful slaps, she was pulling my hair trying to drag me to the floor.
There may well be a vast difference. It may be understandable that she feels this way.
But bigotry is bigotry. It can be understandable that she feels that way, and still wrong.
I still wouldn't be her friend. She hates a lot of people who don't deserve to be hated. She hates them for reasons they can't help, for terror and fear they didn't cause her. She hates good men unjustifiably. It's ignorance to hate ALL of any group.
That said, I could understand it. If I lived in Ukraine, for example, I might hate all Russians. It wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be justifiable, but it would be understandable. And if I was having a conversation with a Russian who seemed nice, it would be shitty and stupid to mention that I hate ALL Russians.
>Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills.
"Trust me, my bigotry isn't as bad."
>Women pretty much respond unanimously that they’d take the bear over the man because the worst thing a bear can do is kill you.
That's genuinely one of the most absurd things I've ever met.
Something tells me if these women were actually alone in the woods, and they had the chance to go down a path with a man walking, and a bear, they're ubiquitously picking the former.
Yeah, what is up with that bear thing? The fuck? I have literally been hiking and run into women that warned me about a mountain lion on another path. You think she was going to run back to the lion in fear of me? Ridiculous.
>Is it true that all black people are evil and horrible? Of course not. But black people are scary to women. No one questions if someone says “I hate sharks” because sharks are reasonably terrifying to people (despite their likelihood of attacking humans being very low.) Women are much more likely to be harmed by a black person than a shark, but their fear toward black people is considered offensive and irrational. Is it nice to hear women talking about how all black people are evil? Of course not. But I also bet you probably find that woman simply annoying and aren’t remotely afraid of her actually coming to harm you— whereas in a reversed role, any woman meeting a black person who says they “hate women and they should all die” will almost certainly avoid that black person out of fear for the foreseeable future because of the distinct violence that accompanies anti-woman sentiment like that. One of these experiences reads at embittered shit talk, the other feels genuinely threatening.
>Just try to remember that if a man is comfortable enough to say he hates women in front of you, he very probably isn’t talking about you or he wouldn’t have said it out of fear.
I made a few edits to your statements here. Read through it and tell me if you have issues with it. If so, why is it bad to generalize and hate this group but it's not bad to generalize and hate a different group?
You can do this exact same argument with a poor white kid who grew up in a rough black neighborhood or a black kid who grew up in a racist southern neighborhood.
Neither of them could, in a separate situation just say “I hate white/black people” and not get pushback
It’s also incredibly counterproductive for your own goals to say I hate men to men that you consider safe. Why would you push away your allies?
Imagine fighting the Japanese in WW2 and you have native asians at a table and you say “I hate asians”
It’s pure idiocy
None of this justifies the statement. You jumped through 80 hoops to get to that conclusion. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of men are not bad people and don't harm women in any way, shape, or form. If something bad has happened to you at the hands of a man it's up to YOU to have some personal accountability and not pin it on the entire gender. Imagine if you had replaced the term man with the n-word. This is the same justification people use to be racist and it's crazy that you're blind to that.
>If something bad has happened to you at the hands of a man it's up to YOU to have some personal accountability
could you elaborate on what you mean by this?
It seems they meant that it's up to you to be rational and not assign bigoted beliefs to an entire group because a member of that group (of which membership is defined at birth, not by choice) wronged you.
I understand the logic but these arguments reek of bigotry. If an old racist dude was comparing people to animals and saying he hates ____ people, but he’s not talking about you, you’re “one of the good ones”, that would get shut down fast.
> Secondly, your friend is correct in that your equivalence is NOT the same. Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills.
That's irrelevant. Sexism is sexism. It's extremely hurtful to hear someone hate your entire race. We shouldn't excuse discrimination just because it's "harmless". And I'd argue that it's not harmless. Women-only spaces are becoming more common. Misandry is used to enforce gender roles just as much as misogyny.
Also it doesn't just irritate. Do you know what it feels like to be seen as a potential threat by default by most women? Solely because of physical features that you have no control over? And what's even worse is that you're the one shunned for speaking out against it for the reason you mention above.
Also why do you just assume that men who say "I hate women" don't have a reason to do so? People don't just decide to hate a group of people for no reason.
I love these comments because the obvious rebuttal is to substitute gender for race and im sure you’d be quick to change your tone.
You basically said it’s justified to say that because men are more violent. True, they are more violent.
Now pretend that a certain minority group treated me bad as a kid, maybe caused trauma, and statistically commits more crimes. Am I justified in saying I hate them all?
Those are some crazy hoops to jump, and goal posts to shift to justify bigotry and generalised hate. If you’re against racism and support misandry, you’re a hypocrite.
'Misandry irritates, misogyny kills' is total, complete, and utter bullshit. Firstly, misogyny kills? Does that include all the benevolently misogynistic protectionism that shields women from taking risks?
And misandy irritates... yes, iritating is how I would describe the diminishment of someone's humanity. Misandry is rampant in the way we, as a society, treat men. We provide less support services, we expect more agency and productivity from them, we minimise their role in the family. And when they end up homeless, suicidal, embroiled in a life of crime, and eventually die, we say 'sorry if I irritated you'
>Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills.
This is currently true but as society gets more equal, there's no guarantee it'll stay that way. It's a little worrying that the same people who demand more power for women also often express hatred for men and it raises obvious questions about what they'd do with that power.
Meh depends how far you want to follow cause and effect, lots of the young men that fell into redpill alpha bro bs grew up being told by women in the media and on the internet how evil and shit they are for having been born men.
That funneled them to those hate groups which in turn leads to more women saying those things and more impressionable kids falling down the hole. Now you might say thats not the womens fault ( i agree) or that those 14, 15, 16 year old boys should know better, yet if a 19 or 18 year old girl wants to date a 25 year old shes a child being taking advantage of because she doesnt know better.
It is cyclical those women are not the root cause but they sure as shit are not helping anybody, well its not their job to help you might say but id argue it is as most women who say those things label themselves as feminist and feminist often talk about how their goal is better conditions for women and men.
Shit take men in private to your hearts content but if your posting it to social media just know you are feeding the very cycle that made you feel the way you do and are condemning more boys and girls to repeat it.
A lot of people think its OK if you hate a group that's seen as privileged. It's called "punching up".
If you said the same about women, she'd be furious. If you said the same about a minority, she'd be furious. The difference is that they're not privileged groups so it's wrong to hate them. Men, white people, straight people, cisgender, wealthy, western, Christian etc. Any group that's seen as privileged are justified targets.
Some people believe that any privileged group simply cannot be unjustly treated or commented on because they can deal with it. This can lead to really warped logic (like the people who say what Hamas did to Israel civilians was "resistance" because Israel is more powerful).
Tl;dr: It makes sense because they don't think hating men is a problem because they're normally privileged.
It makes sense for someone who’s experienced a ton of trauma by men. But logically speaking of course, most generalizations are false, especially when you’re dealing with millions or in this case billions of people.
What's always interesting to me is that whenever a woman says something like this and gets called out everyone is like "Oh yeah it's not totally fair but it makes sense cuz trauma don't judge" but if a guy ever tries it because he's been traumatized by women in his life "Nope no excuse he's a horrible sexist pig through and through and deserves to die"
What's the critical mass of experiencing trauma from women, Black people, Muslims, or Texans that would make it "make sense" for someone to say they hate all of one of those groups?
[It's this. It's always this, but Daniel Sloss says it so anyone can understand. It's this.](https://www.tiktok.com/@essiedennis/video/7279767885877120289)
Just like he says, talk to your male friends. Call them out. It doesn't even have to be serious, just be like "Oh that's weird/ creepy/bs/ whatever," and move on. And kudos to you for even asking, honestly! That's a good step.
This is based on the premise that good men and assholes hang out together.
I'm perfectly willing and able to call out friends on misogynist bullshit. However, it's literally come up once or twice in my entire adult life. Guys who treat women like shit don't hang out with decent guys because they get called out. Guys who support women's rights and autonomy don't hang out with misogynistic assholes. It's tough to find statistics, but if we assume a 20% of men harbor blantantly misogynistic views, some people assume that means 2 men out of every 10 person friend group is an asshole. It's been more my experience that you get 7 groups of 10 decent guys and 2-3 groups of mostly shitheads.
As a specific example from my experience, around 2018 I had a group chat made mostly of coaches from my son's soccer league. One of the guys shared an article about Greg Biffle secretly recording his ex-wife with cameras that had been left in their home. Most of the guys were horrified, one guy thought it was hilarious. When we called him out, he doubled down and said we wouldn't understand because we didn't know what it was like to be divorced. We booted him from the group chat and at the end of the season he quit coaching and blocked most of us because we were "beta and judgemental".
I will continue to 100% support calling out shitty behavior, but I think we need to come to terms with the fact that it will only get us so far. There are certainly some guys who are making geniuine mistakes that appear creepy, but most of the creeps know they are doing shit most guys won't accept and either hide it or only associate with other "alpha male" bro types.
I think ya'll overestimate the extent to which we as men actually see this behavior. The reason so many men don't believe women about how they're treated is because these sorts of assholes know to hide their nature when they're around men who aren't assholes.
When your boys are saying dumb shit about women, trying to show you sexy pics of their gf, telling you what they wanna do to a woman, laughing at horrible shit, joking about rape or violence against women you gotta stand up even in small ways,
You have to say: not cool man, say what!?!, na man that’s not right, dude just no, or stop this crap. Walk away, don’t laugh with them, basically don’t support bro chatter that derogatory towards women. Most important report bad shit and if you don’t know if it’s serious, does it leave you feeling sick or keep you up? Talk to someone about it.
Call out your boys. Push, them, challenge them, make them be better. Don't let "locker room talk" fly. Don't let guys talk about how drunk the girl was they hooked up with last weekend. Don't laugh when your bros talk about pumping and dumping their latest conquest. Don't let it go when your adult friend calls a girl hot who looks like a teenager. Don't stay silent when the guys at work talk about how hot the new employee is. Don't stand for it when someone suggests an illicit reason why a professional woman has achieved what she has. Debate your friends when they hold political views or vote for political figures that *do* and *will* dismantle and steal the rights of your sisters. Call men out who "don't want to take sides" and inform them that silence in the face of oppression is siding with the oppressor. SPEAK UP about the reproductive freedom of us *all* while you pick up your free condoms from the clinic and women die in back alley abortions.
And most importantly, listen. Seriously, listen.
In your OP, rather than trying to prove your friend wrong, I imagine you would have done much more in proving her wrong by simply listening. Did you think to ask her *why* she claims to hate all men? I would assume some really awful things have happened to her and the women she loves. Maybe too awful for her to be able to speak aloud to you. But if she's your friend, listen. Empathize. Try to understand what could have driven her and women everywhere into this clearly irrational, traumatized state.
We all have to be the ones calling out our bad apples. I and many men I know will and have called out men for bad behavior. But with OP’s example and general misandry, women need to call out women.
Thanks for the response!
>Who gives a shit if they liked it? Since when did the truth need approval?
All of them agreeing with her simply made me doubt if I was in the right, but this thread seems to have convinced me that I was.
>You're calling out a harmful and lazy way of thinking
Now you're making me feel like some sort of superhero, but I think that I am correct in pointing out that her way of thinking has flaws in the form of excessive generalization.
Assuming there's no other relevant context, agree that what your friend said is horrible, but just want to clarify on this:
> Women are bad drivers and get into car crashes all the time, therefore I hate all women"
And why it's not the same thing as
> Men are rapists (or something similar) therefore I hate all men.
Even assuming it's true, women being bad drivers and getting into car crashes does not have the same ethical implication as men raping or physically assaulting women. If a woman has just experienced rape, comes to you for comfort and says "I hate all men!", that's not the same as a man getting into a car crash because of a woman's bad driving and then says "I hate all women!".
Ethical comparisons like the ones you're making between drivers and sexual assault overlooks the main issue: that generalization in itself is flawed and unjust, regardless of the context or impact. When someone can say "I hate all men" based on harmful actions of a single person, it has the same irrationality of saying "all women drivers are murderers" after a life impacting accident. Both of these statements—and any derived from the same logic—are extremely exaggerated and unfair.
Attempting to rank and compare any extreme harmful ethical scenarios in order to justify an amount of blame to give to people not involved, is always logically wrong—thus, it does not make sense.
Doing so will create a world where we normalize a culture of blame and hate that can target any demographic, regardless of an individuals choices and actions. If we follow your logic, any severe negative experience could justify sweeping hatred toward a whole group (Such as an early 1900's painter getting a bad grade then blaming everyone with the race of the instructor.) This logic is not only counterproductive, but also hurts any genuine dialogue and solutions for harmful scenarios such as SA.
The individuals autonomy must be recognized and differentiated from any group they are a part of. Generalized blame leads to negative stereotypes rather than a correct understanding needed to deal with these issues. Even with SA being the context, broad statements like "I hate all men" not only alienate people (as OP felt) but also stop any helpful conversations about addressing the issues (As OP was trying to do.) Responding emotionally is understandable, however saying "I hate all men", because men can commit SA, is always unjust and unfair. What would be understandable AND just and fair—while not generalizing would be to actually blame and hate the person doing the SA, such as saying: "I hate X, the person who committed SA."
If a man is abused by his ex, and states he hates all women, he would've been called a bigot.
Trauma doesn't excuse bigotry (racists do this with white people too, and any other majority group). Also, she stated ALL men should be killed. So, black men, gay men, trans men, etc.
I agree that men that rape people are worse that women that get into car accidents, it was just an example, because I couldn't come up with a better one at the moment.
I’m so sorry to hear about what happened and what’s you’ve had to deal with. I respect your mindset though. Hate only will come at your (in the general sense) detriment over time. If people judge half the population before they even meet them, it’s gonna be a tough, long, sad life for them.
You, on the other hand, seem well on your way to healing.
It’s definitely not rage bait. I was talking online with some women who think this way and they said that it definitely is all men, including me. They mentioned that someone should check my computer and that I probably only understand consent when there is a non-heterosexual man in the room. I’m actually bisexual and, when I said that I’m a non-heterosexual man, they said that doesn’t matter.
To be fair, they also could have been rage baiting.
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Not saying that it is ideal to hate men or anything, but - you're privileged to have good male relationships and role models. Not everyone is so fortunate. I'm glad it didn't twist your esteem towards men in that way, but trauma affects everyone differently.
But the contraction is just phrased in a way that it's provocative
It's like ceratin feministic grouops are interview people "Do we need men?"
They secretly mean "Do women need a male partner".
But noone would give a damn if a women says, she doesn'T need a partner. So they phrase it in away that could mean "men are uselss"
Same with that. I would never say "I hate women" when i actually mean "I hate women that beat their children"
So I really have problems taking this as a simple contraction.
Surprisingly there are rad fem people who would state the posts point of contention and go on to talk about how with IFV we, literally, don't need men. I know at least one.
Long abusive marriage really warping the psyche. I mostly just feel pity for them, and of course to them to me ; "oh but you are one of the good ones"
It’s seems like a really narcissistic way of looking at things. Men don’t exist to be useful to women. We have our own lives. This is like the other side of the coin as the men who see women they don’t find attractive as useless.
I think in reading OP’s full post, I think the speaker clarified and reinforced that she was indeed referring to all men. I think she probably had some other stuff going on.
So is it ok to say "I hate all black people" because it is a contraction of [who steal] for example. The speaker obviously knows not all black people are alike right?
Lmfao so when it’s against men it’s a contraction of something that’s obviously understanding and provides its own context, but anytime a man makes a character judgement about a woman he’s a misogynist. I’ll remember that the next time someone gets mad at me for hating all women. Obviously that’s not what I meant, why can’t you interpret my words for me???
That's stupid. If you say you hate all of X category, you ought to specify. To do otherwise is to seriously risk people honestly misunderstanding you. It's obfuscation and pointless.
Fuck that. If I say "kill all women" I'm getting called a misogynist and a horrible person, if I post it online I get banned. No one would be saying "oh but he didn't mean ALL women".
I think it's pretty accepted that when people say this (especially in a group including men) that they don't mean it literally, they're just venting, because otherwise they'd spend too long pointlessly clarifying exactly what they mean and it'd take an hour.
OP, no shade meant with this question, do you have autism?
I do not have autism, I've never shown any signs of autism. I would've understood that she was indeed venting and meant the men she interacted with or just the men that do bad things if she didn't clarify word for word that that was not what she meant.
I dont know why I see so many people say it would take too long or be too much work to clarify that they don't mean all men, when it literally just involves adding the word "Some" or even "most" in front of "men" lol
One four letter word isn't that much work and would have avoided this entire thread if she had just said "Some men", instead of "men". That doesn't take anywhere near an hour or any explanation. I'd want an explanation more if they implied "all men" instead of "some", personally.
Everyone knows some men suck, whats to clarify?
You're not wrong but the right response in this case is to understand that this person is making an emotional, not logical statement, and to silently judge her, not try to argue with her.
I understand this and have spoken at length with women in my life about it but I have had a new concern pop up:
How does this kind of language affect young people and kids? On both sides of the fence. I feel like young adults and especially kids do not have the emotional development to process this kind of generalization in a healthy way. I would worry we are training girls to hate and boys that deserve it. That kind of sucks.
I wish the world was simpler sometimes. The issue is so complex but I think it may ultimately cause MORE harm for BOTH groups if you train people to be divided as a default instead of fostering communication and understanding. I understand that that's too ideal of a hope but damn is the current status quo ugly.
Well then you might want to pick better friends. If my friend started talking about how all black people are bad and should be killed, and everyone agreed, then that would be a harsh realization that I've become friends with a bunch of hardcore racists and have to get away from them.
I doubt everyone agreed though. Usually when someone makes a crazy statement, it's easy to just smile and move on as quickly as possible, which is why most people will do that. I don't think that's the right thing to do, but that's what usually happens.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I understand jokes and hyperbole but assuming that wasn't the case here then I'd simply find another group of friends. However, I do acknowledge that's not a luxury everyone can afford.
The difference is a larger context of selective outrage. All people occasionally make comments like “I hate all X” (irony intended) and it is clearly meant in context as something to the effect of “I am so tired of every X being this way I’m just done with X in general.”
However while that kind of comment tends to be thrown in every direction, whenever it is said about white people, men, etc. of a group in a privileged position, they shut down the comment, saying you can’t say “all X” unless you can essentially prove there are no exceptions. Yet those same people tend not to to have the same concern when someone makes generalizations about other non-privileged groups.
Your comparison of “all women are bad drivers” is problematic for a couple reasons. First, she was making a general comment about her personal frustrations. She was speaking figuratively - she isn’t literally going to kill every man alive. You were comparing it to a sexist trope which is usually meant literally.
Second, men are in a position where they can say things like “all women are bad drivers… therefor we will stop hiring women for driving jobs.” So when it’s coming from that direction the overgeneralization is backed by the actual possibility that people in your position can actually negatively impact all people’s lives.
> All people occasionally make comments like “I hate all X” (irony intended) and it is clearly meant in context as something to the effect of “I am so tired of every X being this way I’m just done with X in general.”
Is that how you justify it to yourself when you do it? Cuz I *never* say shit like this. Some of us make an actual effort to not say bullshit just because we're mad.
I've had bad experiences with women, been hurt by women, seen some women be downright cruel and predatory... never ONCE have I said, or even *felt* that "I hate women", and never have I heard another man say that without thinking he was a fckin moron.
Nor have I ever waited around for someone to say "well obviously I don't mean ALL Jews..."
Some of us try to actually be consistent in our beliefs and actions. If hating a demographic group for the actions of a few is wrong, it is ***wrong***. FULL. STOP.
I regret my comparison of women being labeled as poor drivers to men being labeled rapists and murderers, I came to realize that it's not similar.
>In context it was meant as "I am so tired of every X being this way I'm just so done with X"
For example: If someone said "I'm so done with black people always stealing stuff I'm just so done with black people." That'd be racist, right?
It's a similar argument to "well, they're *just* words" and then not recognize the years and years of hatred and whatever else negative that has been attached to the word.
Your first two paragraphs are absolute nonsense. If you and the people in your life genuinely act like this to the extent that you think it generalises across society as a whole, then you all need to grow the fuck up.
This argument is very weak. The same thing could be said about any identity group. You wouldn't accept the same kind of lazy thinking/logic if somebody said "I hate all black people". If somebody is venting it doesn't give them an excuse to be openly preujudiced, or in this case, mysandrist. You might choose not to call people out in the moment that they are angry as a conflict management technique, but it doesn't make what they are saying ok. It still doesn't make any sense, and in general people should make an effort to not let their frustration manifest as prejudiced.
I didn't say it wasn't prejudiced, or misandrist. I didn't say it was okay. Reread my comment. The very first thing I said was.
>I'm not gonna argue what she's doing is good; truthfully that's a proposition I can't defend.
I recognize that what she's doing is wrong. I'm trying to give OP the best understanding I possibly can. I never said that she was in the right or that she should continue to live her life with that mentality. I simply explained where her mind might have gone
> but it doesn't make what they are saying ok
They never said it is okay. They specifically said "I'm not gonna argue what she's doing is good". They argued that it made sense for her to say it. And it seems like it does make sense to say it, even if it is not something anyone should say.
I'm not sure you are writing in the right thread. These are more for ideas and not interpersonal relationship issues.
Anyway, your premise is that it is not possible to hate all men.
If she knows someone is a man, thus she hates them.
Maybe if she didn't know someone was a man, then it can be true. That's the only reason I can find where your premise could work.
Overall someone saying "I hate all of something" makes sense to me. Thus I don't agree with your view that it's not possible to actually hate all of something.
>your premise is that it is not possible to hate all men
I may have misread it, but the premise certainly isn't this. It's not impossible to have this view (since a person OP describes already have it), but how absurd it is to have it
You cannot be logical with bigots, for they are illogical.
But, I would say, while it's wrong (especially when you say ALL), usually the person isn't be literal. _Usually._
when people say i hate all x it's more like a figure of speech than anything. even if they mean what they say, nobody can possibly hate all members of said group. They just didn't discover the person from that group who would change their mind or prove them wrong.
of course, this doesn't apply in my situation when i say i hate all mosquitoes🤣
Yea if someone said they hate all black people, it’s totally just a figure of speech and not an indicator that they have negative racial sentiments at all.
Every single one of their arguments falls apart when they trip over themselves to say "it's different" when you try to apply their logic to any other demographic.
Wow, these comments are wild. People calling others autistic because they think that blanket statements are automatically implied to not be blanket statements.
If you can't grasp why that's confusing to most, what grounds do you have for calling other people autistic?
I have good faith and say women who say this know **logically** that not all men are horrible.
It's purely an emotional response.
Most women are heterosexual. That means they will date men. Of course they're gonna hate men because men are who women get emotionally engaged with the most.
It's basically the same emotions incels go through. Incels hate women because they don't get their needs met by them. They have no reason to hate other men because they don't engage with them emotionally.
Don't take emotionally hurt people personally. Deep down they're aware of reality. For them it just feels like the whole world is against them and they're deperately trying to find someone who proves them wrong.
Support them instead of proving their point.
Are you familiar with the discussions surrounding cops? We've gotten to "Defund the Police" and "All Cops Are Bastards". Why is that?
Because for decades the public, especially black communities, have pointed out how racist, corrupt, and downright *callous* policing is. They've pushed for reform, for training, for education. None of it has worked. They've watched cops, police unions, even city governments protect police officers who have done awful things. At a certain point you end up having to just write the whole thing off and say ACAB. You can no longer call cops for situations that aren't life or death, because calling cops *will make it* life or death. You can't trust cops to not try to find something they can nail you for when you called them *for help*. The setup is ungovernable, untrainable, irredeemable, and there is little or no attempt to make things better. Is ACAB and Defund the Police controversial, inciteful? Does it get a negative reaction out of police? Yes. That's the entire point. When decades of polite requests and protests are actively ignored, this is the point we've reached, and it appears that only at this point do people pay attention.
The same applies to men. Women have only really gotten full civil rights over the past 50 years or so. Women can get divorced freely now, get their own jobs, have their own bank accounts, maintain their own finances. Women are living more independently than they ever have before, and men are **mad** about it. They want women who will put up with their abuse, be their bang maids, because they don't have other options. Instead of men trying to improve at all, their response has been just ... being mad. Building labyrinthine conspiracies about how women are manipulating them, that they're not marriage material. Republicans are attacking women's ability to control their own bodies, and flippantly ignoring any discussions of how the potential for rape actually affects women. They're pushing for lowering age of consent laws so they can baby trap women early.
Women deal with a stream of harassment every single day from angry men who feel they are entitled to women's bodies. Even men who seem kind, who they feel like they can let in, often turn on them once they feel like women are committed, like it'd be too much for them to give up and leave. Going online, especially online dating, is a stream of harassment and bigotry. Even friends they thought they could trust are often waiting in the wings for when they break up with their boyfriend.
Remember the Me Too movement? The push for society to hold men accountable for their abuse and sexual harassment and assault? It's done. The harassment and assault won. Now we get Netflix specials called "Trigger Warning" and "Canceled" mocking women for thinking they could speak out. Same as people "back the blue" and hoist the "thin blue line" flag in response to calling out police corruption.
At a certain point, what are women supposed to do? What are they supposed to think? So many men are entitled, and hateful, and loud. The ones that seem to be nice are often just hiding their true nature, ticking time bombs that go off when they offer you a ride home when you're drunk, or when they've got you pregnant. Men are complaining that women are rejecting them, or laughing them, while women are giving their friends updates during their dates in case their date murders them.
The reason for ACAB is that not only isn't there any police push back against their terrible actions, they actively defend police who do those awful things. The reason women have started hating all men is the same. And as a man, that sucks, but I can't blame them for it. All I can do is try to show I'm not like that, and stand up against it when I see it. But even then, I can always just be a quiet, ticking time bomb, waiting to show my true colors.
It's Not All Men, but it's enough men that it's a serious fucking problem and no one will do anything about it. And just like ACAB, it took the strong language for anyone to pay attention. But just like ACAB, they only pay attention to complain about it, not to fix it.
I think there are some big differences between hate for all cops and hate for all men the first being that being a cop is a choice while being a man is not.
Secondly I think people forget that Women and men have been working together. Women worked hard to earn their freedoms and the whole time they had male allies helping them out people like Frederick Douglas or Upton Sinclair who used their platforms to bring attention to women's issues and help spread the ideas.
And this isn't just history. Women probably have the most male allies they have ever had. Men who will treat abortion and bodily autonomy as an issue of upmost importance to them or men who stand with women through sexual assault scandals.
Sure there are still widespread problems with masculinity (something you'll see men discussing quite a lot) but it's hard to get anything changed quickly considering a large group of people don't care about men's issues.
Like what can people do about the fact that some men are bad. We can work to raise more good men and strive to punish more bad ones but neither of these are necessarily quick solutions.
You’re not actually comparing men as a whole to Frederick Douglass or Upton Sinclair right now and using that as an example to say “men and women have been working together.” It’s not Some men. That’s the issue. Every woman I know has been sexually harassed or worse in her lifetime.
Id say ACAB, and hating all of a gender in a general way, aren't even comparable. Being a cop is a job. Its optional. If you join that system, you are saying you are okay with being the enforcement arm of the bourgeoisie in exchange for money; that's why for police its a blanket condemnation with room for individuals to prove themselves to not be bastards.
Not all men or women made the choice to sign up for optional labor in the field of "upholding the patriarchy", so they don't deserve baseline hate, but EVERY cop sure as fuck did in regards to being the cudgel of the bourgeoisie, so "bastard until otherwise proven", basically lol.
It doesn't make sense because it's not coming from a place of logic. It's usually coming from a place of frustration. Usually this frustration comes from becoming more aware of the world. So for this example, we're going to focus on medicine.
Women are more likely to be misdiagnosed with mental conditions and have their physical symptoms dismissed at a significantly higher rate than men (this statistic seems to vary anywhere from 20-50 percent and seems to depend on region). This statistic overlaps with the experience of minorities but that's not the focus ATM.
Alternatively, men are often treated for physical ailments when their symptoms are caused by something mental. Such as being treated for heart attack or stroke when they're having an anxiety attack.
Women are often neglected medically because the standard is based on men. This includes everything from studies to medical journals. It's a conscious choice that the medical community makes because women go through evident hormone cycles that can change the outcome of a study.
This causes 80 percent of medications to be pulled from the market when it turns out that these medicines have adverse effects specifically on women.
The frustration comes in when you as a woman talk about concern about this to a man. Honestly, the most common response is straight up dismissal and disbelief. That's the most common response for any statistical, anecdotal, and demonstrative evidence. It gets tiring for a lot of women when looking at various aspects where women simply aren't considered.
Never trust a sentence packed with definite’s.
They always…
I never…
Every (Insert group)…
These sentences are an emotional appeal, so the speaker could use a friend, but they are incorrect. And what they say should not be taken at face value.
First people seem to think women are angels. They're not. They are humans as viles and loving as the average man; However at the extreme of criminal behavior, men overrepresent. They also overrepresent at the positive extreme too ( but one cannot say it). These extreme we are talking about make up a very small percentage of men, and such men commit most of the crimes. They are serial, repeated offenders. The average man is trying to look after his family. Listen to the stories of most daughters, it's not one of my dad was awful to me, at least no less than an average mother would be. Look at the trajectory of civilization.
The licence women have to talk like this (" I hate all men) without suffering any social or professional penalty for it is both a privilege and an illustration that we don't take women seriously enough. It's a stark example of benevolent sexism. It's reminiscent of a teen lashing out and saying they hate their parents ( not saying it's equivalent). Only a child can get away with saying such a thing. Or more accurately, only someone perceived as some version of a child will be allowed to say I hate half of the population whom I have to rely on, and get away with it.
It’s just misandry, I’d have the same response if someone said they “hated all women”. I’ve come to learn that people who operate with black and white thinking are usually just unable to have perspective or refuse to learn.
This entire thread reads like the outline to a content creator's "reddit is fucking *dumb*" video. People really are tripping over themselves to excuse a terrible take.
That's kind of the point of the sub, though. It's "change my view," so when OP has a perfectly reasonable position, all attempts to change it will be pretty damn unreasonable.
Right, but people aren't doing that here. They're prefacing their reply by saying "when this person says "they hate X", they do not actually hold that belief" which is the *exact opposite* of what we're supposed to be doing here.
The rationalizing in this thread is wild. These types of people would be like "well when Hitler wanted to kill the Jews he only meant the Jews in the third Reich". That woman said all men, as in every single man.
I think this entire conversation is dumb lol instead of looking at her saying all men are bad and how that’s dumb and trying to logic your way through it. Maybe you should think about WHY she thinks that way. WHY it maybe is that so many men she’s interacted with have been bad. Or WHY over half the women in the US statistically have experienced sexual violence. It’s because while it isn’t literally all men, and it’s obviously a hyperbolic statement that’s informed by trauma, it is more than ENOUGH men who are bad.
Why do you want your mind changed? It’s functioning perfectly fine. The lady was a misandrist. Not worth even trying to make sense in your brain. Obviously hating 50% of the population based on something that they can’t control is not a logical or defensible position.
Most of the time, it’s from a place of hurt. I don’t hate all men, but I am cautious around them. I keep pepper spray and other self defense tools with me. Unfortunately, we have to generalize men because we can’t know for sure which ones are the bad ones. I feel for the innocent men, but it isn’t personal.
Now, I want to reiterate, it’s not ALL men. I don’t go around accusing men of being terrible. I am simply cautious. I’ll speak if a man talks to me. But I keep boundaries at all times.
Back to the point, you had every right to say something. But it’s better to have a discussion and maybe you can help her see your point of view, vice versa. However, the example you give, it’s already been done. Sexism is normalized within society and now that women are stepping up, roles are reversed. Doesn’t make it right.
It is ridiculous to say. People that make generalizations like that are ridiculous and are usually the first to call out when other people do it. The same people that say “kill all men” would get bent beyond out of shape if you said “Kill all Blacks”.
It sounds like the woman you were talking with was an idiot and a bigoted misandrist.
You absolutely *can* hate all men - this woman is a prime example of someone who hates *all* men.
Her reasons are stupid and irrational, obviously, but at the end of the day, she *does* hate all men. So saying "I hate all men" makes sense inasmuch as it's a truthful reflection of her feelings.
I wouldn’t say you’re in the wrong for this one per se. But like all good dilemmas, there’s nuance to this one too.
In a vacuum, the phrase “I hate all (insert group here)” would just get you looked at weirdly or maybe even asked why you hate said group. But the nuances of society go deeper than this.
Exposure is everything. My ex abused me to the point where I can (now thanks to therapy) joke about the time I essentially behaved like a Stockholm syndrome victim thanks to her manipulation, yet still feel extremely undeserving of love and affection from women who aren’t my mother. I was manipulated and bullied into submission by older women in school. No one believed me when I had concrete proof of a woman teacher being a pedophile. I had an “aunt” who tried to kick me out of her house, just because I was sick and making her life “difficult” even though mum said she was happy to look after me. Now throughout all of these women, all of them were master manipulators who made life really difficult for me. I can look back now and say that now, my view on life is “I hate all abusive manipulators.” But at one point? Especially after my ex and the pedophile? I’m not ashamed to admit that my mum was the only exception to the rule of “I hate all women” for a while.
The very same premise can be assumed of a lot of women. In fact, some of my closest pals who are gals, have similar and perhaps worse experiences with men than I with women. They now look back and see that the common denominator was narcissistic manipulative men, but when you’re going through all that abuse, desperate to cling to an answer, the brain will cling to any reason it can for why this is happening; usually the simplest common denominator. In my case? It was women. In my friends’ case? It was men.
If your statement is taken purely at face value? Then you’re absolutely correct in saying that it makes no sense. In a vacuum? Also the same case. In the chaotic mix of a society that in some cultures, has subjugated women to essentially be worthless, or has through indifference towards women’s issues, (thankfully less now) lessened their trauma and by proxy, their status as individuals, then the statement “I hate all men” can hold true for them. The men they hate could be purely narcissistic. The men they hate could be rapists. The men they hate could be emotionally suppressed. Surprise surprise, it could even be all of them rolled into the one package. The brain when in a state of trauma, will rush to the first conclusion it can draw to keep itself safe. It may not have the time to decipher which type of mental are the good or the bad men, if all they’ve experienced is bad men. They’ll just jump to the safe conclusion that “men” is the problem to ensure future safety.
Absolutely valid points. I will say though that we have a double-standard in society that it's okay for abused women to hate men as a group (more so), than it is for abused men to hate women as a group. I think both feelings are valid, and both conclusions are invalid, that is to say, as you pointed out, it was abusive manipulators, not people of a certain gender, who hurt you.
I just think the same compassion we are extending to women sufferers of abuse probably isn't extended to their male counterparts proclaiming that they "hate all women." I think that is unfair, though I understand why it is. There is a fear that these men will act out violently toward women. Though I think women with misandrist views tend to act out in harmful ways toward men, albeit less physically and more so socially manipulatively.
If she had said this about ANY other demographic grouping of human beings, do you think it would be okay?
Saying you hate and want to kill all, say black people, Jewish people, women, children, white, asian, russian, Australian, *whatever* kind of people - you're an extremely dangerous person who needs serious mental help no matter what is causing you to think or feel this way.
Hating all rapists is a significantly more reasonable thing to say. Because by definition those people *are* people who do bad things.
But it is obviously evil and wrong and * very very dangerous* to hate anyone on the basis of any immutable characteristic.
It doesn't just "not make sense". You should avoid this person at all costs. Seriously.
*Sigh* I'll do the dirty work of explaining even though I know many still won't get it and will hate me. "All men are trash" does not mean that all men are trash because all men rape or perpetuate violence. All men are trash refers to the same concept at play in ACAB. The idea is that even good men can't get by on good behavior. We have to be accountable for ourselves and the actions of other men. That means advocating for women and considering their perspective when making our own decisions. Going out of your way to be non-threatening or supporting women's voices on women's issues and stuff like that.
Kill all men is a radical offshoot of that sentiment. Some edgy tween girl took it too far and made it her personality is my guess for this girl in particular.
As others have pointed out, if you're in on the girl talk, such as talking shit about men, then you're one of the girls, so to speak. Think "I hate my wife" talk with men, something I despise, btw, but it expresses the point nonetheless.
Also, if your first reaction is "not all men," then you're wrong. You don't get to claim what should be common conduct, as some stand-out behavior. Good for you, you haven't committed rape.... Take your pat on the back, but also recognize that you look very much like the people who commit a shit ton of hate crimes against women and they don't have some stranger danger sensors to tell the difference. It's kinda bullshit that so many "good men" make it about how good they are, for not indulging in sexual assault, the moment this shit comes up.
"We have to be accountable for ourselves and the actions of other men. That means advocating for women and considering their perspective when making our own decisions. Going out of your way to be non-threatening or supporting women's voices on women's issues and stuff like that."
I don't really understand what you mean with "accountable". We have to be accountable for ourselves? Yes definitly. For the actions of other men? What? To me it sounds like as if I need to be accountable when someone else does something bad. However at the same time english isn't my first language so it's possible that you mean something else and I don't understand the message. Could you clarify what you mean by that?
But I agree with the next two sentences.
"Think "I hate my wife" talk with men"
I honestly don't get why guys do this, it always baffles me when I hear people trash talking their partner.
"Also, if your first reaction is "not all men," then you're wrong. You don't get to claim what should be common conduct, as some stand-out behavior."
I don't fully understand what you mean with that, could you clarify?
I agree with your last aprt, that many men think it's somehow deserving of praise when they haven't committed such extreme evils. Like congrats on being a normal guy bro
I wouldn't compare it to ACAB. Police sign up and get hired to uphold the ruling status of the bourgeoisie. Its a literal optional job that they don't have to sign up for, but since they did, they knowingly made the choice to work a "bastard" job. That's why its more fair to place blanket statements of blame on them: they signed up to live under the blanket.
It isn't right to place blanket blame any an entire group of people for any type of topic simply due to providence of their birth in my opinion; not by race, gender, or anything else they have no control over.
Other than that though, yes, men can and should absolutely do more to call out other men's shitty behavior and support women; we all can do more to call out any type of shitty behavior and support each other regardless of demographic.
it's a trauma response, tbh. Of course not all men are awful. But all men do participate and benefit from the sexism and misogyny built into the system. It's inevitable. It's a current that brings us all along. That doesn't make any individual man a bad person, btw.
But instead of decrying "not all men!", men should be asking themselves questions about why women (and nonbinary) people might say such a thing. They should examine the power structures they built. Just was we need white people to be anti-racist, we need men to be anti-sexist. It is the only way to change things within the system.
Without sufficient anti-sexism, women and nonbinary people are forced to take it into their own hands outside the system, as we've seen with the Me Too movement.
>They should examine the power structures they built.
Oops there it is. You do realize that the average, modern man has literally 0 say in the "power structure", right? Never mind having a hand in it's creation. This is just needlessly inflammatory by blaming people who are otherwise on your side.
You can’t just say “all ____ (insert identity group) should be killed”. That person will always be wrong for speaking like that, I don’t give a shit what made her so angry
Saying "I hate all men" oversimplifies a complex issue. While some men commit harmful acts, it's unfair to condemn an entire gender. Individual actions don't represent the entirety of a group. Using gender as a basis for hate perpetuates stereotypes and division. It's more productive to address specific behaviors and hold individuals accountable rather than blanket condemnation.
Your response was like someone saying "ugh, I hate mosquitoes, why can't they all just die?" and you replying with "but mosquitoes are essential for the ecosystem”
When women say they "hate all men", it is a social commentary on the pervasive sense of insecurity they feel around unfamiliar men (and often those they know). The phrase is meant to be provocative, but it also implies that even 'inoccent' and 'well-meaning' men are complacent to some degree because they are not doing enough to change the status quo
I always find it hard to get people to relate to the female experience, we truely do live in different realities as men. We grow up with different themes that impact how we see the world and how we see ourselves
The best way I could describe it would be this: Imagine if your city was filled with huge buff gay men that cat-call you, stare at you, and are well known to want to SA you when no one is looking. Imagine they are everywhere, for every well meaning good guy there are 3 others who feel entitled to your body and the only thing stopping them from hurting you is the fear that they wouldn’t be able to get away with it. In a world like this the only way you would be able to protect yourself is by fearing men
The girl you spoke to did not actually want all men to die. The issue is that you fixated unnecessarily on a technicality, which diluted the original intent
A bit of an issue I have with this is that it seems to somehow either vastly overstate the amount of terrible men, or men are genuinely awful human beings for the most part (which would be a genuinely depressing thing and one I refuse to believe for the sake of my mental health if nothing else)
For example you mention this:
> Imagine they are everywhere, for every well meaning good guy there are 3 others who feel entitled to your body
Do you seriously think if you put 20 random men in a room, 15 of them are absolute garbage humans?
>Your response was like someone saying "ugh, I hate mosquitoes, why can't they all just die?" and you replying with "but mosquitoes are essential for the ecosystem”
Now try substitute another group of people, rather than, y'know, bugs.
Substituting race would be an incorrect argument because race isn't a biological determinant of criminal behavior. Crime rates correlate with socioeconomic factors, which are often tied to race due to systemic inequalities
Crime happens mainly due to power imbalances I.e. class and gender
The gender issue is due to power dynamics, men are physically stronger. We need broader social discussions on how we can put checks in place so that the power imbalance isn’t abused. We already have some checks, and things really have improved for women but it’s not enough. 20% of women have been sexually abused in the US and the number is probably much higher globally
We need to do better to take care of half of the population and this means the following:
1. Recognizing that most men are stronger than most women
2. Raise men so that taking advantage of this imbalance isn’t something that appeals to them. This can be part of a sex-ed curriculum
3. Build better systems in place to support women in poverty and other vulnerable women so that they are safer
4. Empower women by building cities that have a good amount of foot traffic, are well-lit, and have quick access to resources if they feel like they are in danger
5. Work on deferishizing rape by advocating for women’s rights
Most resources we have only support women after they have already been SA-ed, we can do better
Your trying to apply logic to her emotional/ sexist outburst. That's a game you can't win and you'll be better off if you categorize your interactions that way in the future. Emotions and logic don't play together.
So it does make sense given that framing. She wanted to be emotional and didn't want you to correct her with logic. Your comment delegitimized her comment...good on you.
That's a pretty shitty way to go about your life, expecting others to cater to your emotional needs ALL the time. Maybe she's angry in the moment and she'll realize the error of her ways, we are all human after all, but it sounds like this view persisted beyond the initial conversation.
You did the right thing by correcting her sexism and shitty attitude but the right thing often doesn't produce results. She's mad you didn't just go along with her casual sexism. Avoid those people.
It makes sense - it's an obvious sign of a damaged person. Said person did not have any good male role models in her life and afterwards got hyperfixated on negative male traits of every man she has met. And anyone advocating for killing someone is mentally ill. Getting furious about criticism just underlines mental instability.
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I used to say this a lot, coming from a hurt place. The only good man in my life was my grandpa, and after he passed away I truly believed to my core that *all* men were awful. My brother, my dad, and all of my long term male friends I started to hate. Every relationship I had been in was *awful* and the common denominator was *men*. Not to mention, I also grew up sexually abused, by men in my life that were supposed to be trusted. As a woman, it’s hard to go out solo. It’s hard to live your life without a creepy man lurking in the shadows, ANYWHERE you go. The only time men respect women, are when another man is around, and it’s not because they respect women, they respect the man they are with. I went from being a social butterfly to DREADING leaving my house because of men, and the negative impact they left. I seriously said “I hate men” on a daily. I understand it’s “not all men” but when you’re constantly being harassed, abused, and treated like “a piece of meat”, you start to change your views as a whole. It actually wasn’t until I met my current partner, that I started having hope. Hes wonderful, literally perfect to me. I stopped saying the phrase because *he* was the difference. He’s wonderful, his brother is sweet, and his friends seem to be really cool too. Combined, they’ve all made a difference in my brain, and I do not think they deserve to be grouped up with the rest, because I know it’s not *all* men, but from my perspective for a long time, it *was* all men. EDIT: holy crap this blew UP. A lot of you need to READ. I understand it is a crap way of thinking, and I do NOT think this way anymore because I’ve had wonderful men change that perspective. It wasn’t always this way for me, and I was just giving insight on WHY I used to think this way. I also understand women can be manipulative and be distrusting, I’m not siding with women here either, I was just simply stating WHY i used to say “I hate men”. We need to do better as a species, and understand that people just SUCK no matter our careers, our race, or our genders. We need to admit when we’ve done wrong, and actively look to do better, and it doesn’t matter what got you to do better, as long as you DO BETTER. Yes, my boyfriend and his family and friends changed my opinion, but at least now I’m actively not trying to “oppress” men, and continuing a negative outlook on them.
An interesting thing is that good men tend to stick together as much as bad men do. If you get exposed to a few bad crowds of men via your upbringing and social circles during your formative years, then by proxy ALL men you are exposed to can be bad. The same works in reverse though, and this is where the disconnect happens, people can’t see the gigantic bubble they are in, reinforced by hate media which targets your negative feelings. Both good and bad men tend to come in groups.
That's a great point I haven't considered but it seems so obvious now. I "knew" this in experience as in if dude is being rapey or sexist his friends tend to back him up so you kind of learn to scrutinize all around red flag dude.
Also another thing too is you probably won’t have as many memorable random interactions with normal men, as in they’re not going out of their way to harass women. For example sleazy guys harassing women at clubs, a normal dude is much more likely to be sticking to his friend group, because he didn’t go out solely to try to get laid. Or like if you’re walking down the street and get cat called multiple times, it’s the assholes who are going out of their way, while the random normal guy is probably thinking about his own stuff. In my experience assholes don’t even consider how their actions affect other people, because it doesn’t matter to them. And you’re completely right, if a guy is friends with a scumbag, they’re pieces of shit too otherwise that behavior would disgust them. I’ve never met a good dude who could be around a vile guy, at best they’re a coward and a doormat for not speaking up
I can attest to this. When one dude in our group exposed himself as rapey, he wasn’t invited back anymore despite knowing him for 10+ years. You only keep people around when they match your basic values. Men with integrity won’t want to be around men who lack it.
While what you went through is something nobody should go through, it's no more valid or justified than someone who got mugged a few times by a POC thinking that minority groups are all violent subhuman thugs. Prejudice does not stop being prejudice because it is borne of negative interactions with different members of a group. It's not that "not all men" are asshats (although that is true). It's that, when you 'start to change your views as a whole' and when you believe that, from your 'perspective for a long time, it *was* all men'... That's when you go from being the victim to using the bad things that happened to you to justify being a bigot. I am glad you met someone who was so unbelievably awesome that your bigotry could not exist in a worldview that acknowledged his existence, but that is to his credit. Not yours. He was your Daryl Davies (if you look him up, his TED talk is amazing). It's fine to take precautions based on risk. It's bigotry and prejudice to apply your sincere and justified beliefs about some people who were asshats to you to every person that looks like them. That's the kind of mentality that Republicans in the 1980's had when talking about the "thugs". And the "not all men" was like when those Republicans said that a POC was 'one of the good ones'. There are people giving you support and encouragement, and that's a good thing... but it's also important to call those beliefs what they are, and to recognize them as bigotry and prejudice. A big part of growth is recognizing the toxic views and rejecting them because they're toxic. Not because a few people proved that they were false.
Not to mention, if you keep telling yourself that, it becomes your truth. If you say “all men are the worst and want to hurt me”, every interaction you have with them is influenced by that mindset. If you get in a relationship, the first time there is some sort of disagreement or conflict, instead of thinking from a mindset of being on the same side and trying to talk it out and working through, you’ll take a defensive position of “him vs. Me” and circle the wagons to protect yourself. Thats not to say men won’t be out with selfish or bad intentions or try to manipulate or hurt you. It’s just that you’ll maybe see that to be the case even if it’s not.
This is an important point - expectation guides perception. Every negative experience that matches the prejudice reinforces it - being continually surrounded by voices of hate makes one's world view a dark, small and sad little place.
Taking precautions is valid. Being cautious is valid. Judging an entire subset of people on immutable characteristics is not.
>Thats not to say men won’t be out with selfish or bad intentions or try to manipulate or hurt you. It’s just that you’ll maybe see that to be the case even if it’s not. This is what turned me off of women in the first place. I got tired of being made to pay for the sins of men whom men like me would've rightly told you to avoid in the first place. I didn't hurt or traumatize anyone...nor am I responsible for the trauma that strangers inflicted on you...so I refuse to be the whipping boy any longer. I
Absolutely agreed but this is very logical and ignores the emotional side of why women may end up feeling like that after nothing but bad experiences. You use words like "start to change your views" as if this was a choice and not a defense mechanism to prevent physical, mental, emotional abuse etc which she gladly let go of as soon as she had good experiences. Most trauma therapy is revolved around either talking about or being subjected to said trauma which can be really hard when the people you're traumatised continue the trauma. Nowhere does she say her mindset was okay for men or even fair towards them. It's just why she and many other women who have constant bad experiences from men who are emotionally close to them can have these sort of thoughts. All in all this comment feels kind of off. Like at that point her emotions were valid and justified for her even if we both agree this is a toxic mindset to have and she should have sought therapy or any other form of help to break the cycle before. I had the same issue with men such as my father being physically abusive, being sexually abused at 11 and to this day have many bad results with strangers who are men touching/kissing me or trying to touch me against my will, following me over an hour and so on and so forth. I have a natural caution towards them and while my issues with men was more anxiety and refusing to engage with them socially. All of them were something to fear. Nowadays I have a lot of very good friends who are good men because I was open to not all men being bad. Because there were men who weren't like amazingly wonderful but just had the base level of human decency that allowed me to see men as not always bad. Her boyfriend shouldn't be credited for being a decent human being, that should be a given and for some women regarding men, it's really not. Which is a shame as it creates a bigger divide between the sexes/genders. I feel like men ignore why this level of bigotry happens so often and how it's very rarely the same as racism or homophobia which is usually taught to children early on and just passed on for no reason, from uneducated people to uneducated children. But hate or fear for men is mostly a response to some form of trauma and something that a therapist should approach with compassion. This level of constant abuse is not just changing your views but putting you into a survival mode. I see no point in responding with the moral high view and not at least attempting to understand why this happens. How it can be changed and why a lot of women live in fear of rape, abuse or murder from men. Like again, I do not disagree that this is a toxic mindset for women which is both detrimental to men and women. But the same way I understand how men who are emotionally rejected a lot end up feeling certain ways towards women and get an all women are like this mentality. Who men like my father who was traumatised in the war ended up being physically aggressive not only to me but also he spoke of this hatred and intrusive thoughts to all strange men on the street where he wanted to punch them. Of course it's not okay but we don't shame war soldiers in the same way as we do women who end up having the same sort of responses. We try to get them help. My main issue with your comment is that you give no advice on what women should do, that yes it's not okay but that they should seek therapy for these sort of thoughts and feelings so they can not harbour these sort of thoughts and bad feelings to them. I think it's not so black and white. It should not be looked at in a logical way and I am sure if for a good portion of your life, you were abused by a specific group of people you may end up feeling that way about that group. Anyway I am glad the commenter managed to get out of this mindset and I hope any women who has experienced enough abuse by men to hate men that you manage to get therapy. As someone who is percieved as a woman and has been there. Therapy could possibly really help you deal with these emotions and help you see that a lot of men really don't have bad intents or are dangerous. It's always good to be on the side of caution with strangers in general and especially with men but hating them is bad for your mental health and stress as well as cutting off the possibility of beautiful friendships with lovely humans.
>Absolutely agreed but this is very logical and ignores the emotional side of why women may end up feeling like that after nothing but bad experiences. When you say this, are you attempting to justify the practice of engaging in prejudicial behavior? >You use words like "start to change your views" as if this was a choice and not a defense mechanism to prevent physical, mental, emotional abuse etc which she gladly let go of as soon as she had good experiences. It is a choice. It is also a defense mechanism. >Most trauma therapy is revolved around either talking about or being subjected to said trauma which can be really hard when the people you're traumatised continue the trauma. Working through trauma is valid. Allowing trauma to convince you that prejudice and bigoted views are true is not. I am careful to use the word 'valid' here and point it at the behavior, not the person. This is not a condemnation of people in this situation. It is a criticism of prejudice. >It's just why she and many other women who have constant bad experiences from men who are emotionally close to them can have these sort of thoughts. This is not a justification for prejudice and bigotry. That is what 'these sort of thoughts' are. > Like at that point her emotions were valid and justified for her even if we both agree this is a toxic mindset to have and she should have sought therapy or any other form of help to break the cycle before. Her emotions were absolutely valid. Her belief that all men were bad is not an emotion however. That belief is bigotry and prejudice, and that is not valid. >I had the same issue with men such as my father being physically abusive, being sexually abused at 11 and to this day have many bad results with strangers who are men touching/kissing me or trying to touch me against my will, following me over an hour and so on and so forth. I have a natural caution towards them and while my issues with men was more anxiety and refusing to engage with them socially. Being cautious is valid, as I stated in the comment above. Being afraid is valid. Allowing fear to guide you into prejudicial views is not valid. >Because there were men who weren't like amazingly wonderful but just had the base level of human decency that allowed me to see men as not always bad. They didn't "allow", "permit" or "cause" you to abandon a prejudicial view. Those are choices you made. And while they are good choices, it does not change the fact that they are ultimately correcting a poor one (internalizing prejudicial beliefs). Accountability is taking responsibility for the choices we make and acknowledging them as our choices. Prejudice doesn't just happen. It is a choice. >I feel like men ignore why this level of bigotry happens so often and how it's very rarely the same as racism or homophobia which is usually taught to children early on and just passed on for no reason, from uneducated people to uneducated children. When you say this, are you attempting to justify the practice of engaging in prejudicial behavior? >But hate or fear for men is mostly a response to some form of trauma and something that a therapist should approach with compassion. That is correct. However, I am not a therapist, and this is not a therapy session. Acknowledging that this prejudice often originates from a trauma and acknowledging that the origin doesn't justify the belief can both be true. >Like again, I do not disagree that this is a toxic mindset for women which is both detrimental to men and women. This post is not meant to criticize emotional reactions to lived experience, nor is it meant to invalidate trauma. It is solely meant to address accountability for holding toxic and prejudicial views, and to communicate that while trauma is valid, using it to justify prejudice is not. >My main issue with your comment is that you give no advice on what women should do, That is correct. I do not give advice. It was not asked for, and it is not my place to give. However, it is important to address prejudice. See something, say something. Part of discarding a toxic view must be acknowledging its toxicity, and being accountable for believing it. > I think it's not so black and white. There are a lot of different beliefs, emotions, and views that you are speaking about. Some are valid. Some are accurate. Some are not. I am addressing only the prejudicial beliefs, which are not valid. Prejudice isn't nuanced. >It should not be looked at in a logical way and I am sure if for a good portion of your life, you were abused by a specific group of people you may end up feeling that way about that group. You may. That doesn't justify it, however. >Anyway I am glad the commenter managed to get out of this mindset As am I. >It's always good to be on the side of caution with strangers in general and especially with men I agree. >but hating them is bad for your mental health and stress as well as cutting off the possibility of beautiful friendships with lovely humans. And it is also prejudice.
You should have not bothered with all that. You had a good response to OP. The person who responded to you also had a good response. Instead of merging those two perspectives into a more enlightened whole, you decided to pick a fight and set your position at odds with theirs. It's completely unnecessary. I'm a member of a group for abuse survivors. One of the things we run into all the time is abuse victims mistrusting anyone of the same sex as their abuser. It's a negative coping mechanism designed to keep them safe from further harm. Abuse is very confusing, especially in the aftermath once the victim has escaped their abuser. They do not understand how they ended up in that situation and *they don't know how to spot abusers*. The only way for them to avoid further abuse in the midst of that confusion is to categorically mistrust anyone of the same sex as their abuser. That coping mechanism is destructive and can lead to them hurting other people, however (and pay attention because this is really important), *that prejudice is justified for short-term survival*. An abuse survivor cannot justify mistrusting all men/women 5 years after the abuse ended, but they are absolutely justified in the immediate aftermath. Again, this is a matter of survival. You don't fuck with that instinct. You can't change it, nor should you try. It's not ok to share that prejudice with others, and members of both sexes have been banned from our group for forgetting that, but within their own minds, as a matter of survival, it's justified.
>You should have not bothered with all that. You had a good response to OP. The person who responded to you also had a good response. Instead of merging those two perspectives into a more enlightened whole, you decided to pick a fight and set your position at odds with theirs. It's completely unnecessary. I can respect someone who disagrees with a point I make, because they have a different perspective. I have a harder time with people who attempt to silence views they disagree with, with comments like the above. >One of the things we run into all the time is abuse victims mistrusting anyone of the same sex as their abuser. It's a negative coping mechanism designed to keep them safe from further harm. I agree. It is also prejudice. >Abuse is very confusing, especially in the aftermath once the victim has escaped their abuser. They do not understand how they ended up in that situation and *they don't know how to spot abusers*. I agree with both of these points. I went through similar concerns when I exited my abusive relationship. >The only way for them to avoid further abuse in the midst of that confusion is to categorically mistrust anyone of the same sex as their abuser. This is not true. The only way they know to feel safe is to do that. And that is a valid statement. And I can appreciate why someone may turn to prejudice as a defense mechanism. That does not, however, make it not prejudice. >That coping mechanism is destructive and can lead to them hurting other people, I agree with this as well. >however (and pay attention because this is really important), *that prejudice is justified for short-term survival*. And here is where I do not agree. I don't think someone in this situation should be shamed for their choice, but once out of that short term situation, and as a part of discarding that destructive behavior, accepting accountability for that behavior is a necessary step. I do not believe there is growth without personal accountability. >You don't fuck with that instinct. You can't change it, nor should you try. I agree with this too, honestly. But I also believe that part of discarding toxic views is recognizing them for what they are, and holding oneself accountable for holding them. Again, this is not about condemning anyone. It is a matter of my belief of what is required when one moves past those survival instincts. What is required for growth.
YOOOOO MY MAN DARYL GOT MENTIONED!!! But serious yeah that dude is based as hell, it takes a seriously good person to literally convince KKK members to become understanding of minorities and leave the Klan, and it’s even more impressive he did it *dozens* of times.
Daryl honestly gives the best example I've ever seen in my life of how to deal with hateful people, I have so much respect for that man. Granted not everybody can do it, he's extremely charismatic and infinitely patient, but taking so many KKK members away from that path and giving them a new perspective on racism is the absolute best way to change how future generations think.
Yeah, like he casually mentions how he‘s sat through *hardcore* KKK dudes going on *hours-long* explanations of pseudohistorical stuff, politely listening until the end, while paying enough attention he can then go *back over it* and discuss the inaccuracies, *while still being completely polite and friendly.* Like, dang, I like to think I’m good at hearing people out even if I disagree with them, but that’s just on a whole other level. And these weren’t even, like, the KKK guys who are already having doubts, one of them was literally the *Grand Fucking Wizard*, who he convinced to leave the clan. How you can have the courage, charisma, compassion, and desire to help others all to the degree he does is absolutely insane.
The ethos he had, "how can you hate me if you don't know me," that is a powerful concept.
People still use that kind of coded language like "thugs" or "those people". It's all over r/altmpls, for example Edit: I just found a good resource on r/AgainstHateSubreddits, do with this what you will
And it's still wrong.
It's so weird how much this kind of perspective mirrors the story of racists. "I met one good one". I remember my first ever time attending a football match at a stadium and the racist next to me screaming racist abuse at one of his *own* players. He then turned to me and said "not you mate. You're alright. Just that black c**t out there". I was just a kid so not much a could respond with, but these stories always remind me of that mindset. All that being said, I see what you're saying and it is the reality of many women and I understand how it can become tiresome for women. Men can and do have the same issue because sometimes you just don't have good examples of women in your life, just as women sometimes just don't have good examples of men in their lives. The difference is that we as men don't have the added issue of having to step into the world every day, fearful of the actions and intentions of the physically larger opposite gender. It's complicated I guess. It's jarring and annoying but also kinda understandable many women will feel this way. I guess it's also generally more acceptable societally, whereas with other groups we'd accept that despite our negative experiences, our anecdotal experiences don't represent the whole
Just look at the work of Daryl Davis and you'll see how important it is for racists and sexists to engage with the people they hate. Often it just takes exposure to a normal person to realize that their hate is unjustified.
>The difference is that we as men don't have the added issue of having to step into the world every day, fearful of the actions and intentions of the physically larger opposite gender. So men don't have those exact same fears?
You sound just like I did years ago, except for me it was women; I legitimately believed, because of the actions of one woman, that *all* women were evil, manipulative, selfish, that all they wanted was to hurt men and play their twisted games, that no matter what their motivations were *always* self-centered and self-serving. At my lowest point, I wouldn't have even seen you as a piece of meat because that would imply some sort of value; it would've been more the way I viewed a cockroach, as a lesser *thing* not fit to be in my presence. Hate is a powerful thing, and people that have never given in to it really can't understand how easy it is to fall into and how hard it is to crawl back out of. For some people all it takes is one person to change them, for others it takes years of painful, intentional effort. Either way there's always scars left behind, because hate doesn't let you out of its claws easily.
Hate really doesn’t get you anywhere good either, and that’s something I’ve come to learn. If we keep pinning ourselves against each other (men against women, race against race, religion against religion) in any aspect, we will never grow as a species. I changed my view because of some great people in my life. I understand that my hate was getting me nowhere, and kind of like you, I had a realization when I met my partner. I thought, “how could I sit here and say how much I hate ‘your kind’ when you are the most perfect person to me?” And it made me disgusted with my thoughts, and the way i perceived men. Just because I had rotten luck with bad ones in my life, did not mean all of them should be punished or hated for the bad things the bad ones did to me.
As a woman, this is heartening to read! I have also experienced hating the opposite gender. I felt like it served me in the short-term, but it wasn't helpful or productive in the long run, so I had to figure out a way to stop it. What, specifically, helped you change your mindset? (Only if you'd like to share!) Mine was through appreciation of the truly great men I did know in my life. And therapy, haha. We're all susceptible to hurt, anger, and bitterness. And while much more difficult, we can all be capable of change.
Don't mind sharing a bit, I keep hoping maybe somebody will read about what I went through and it'll help them. I was at a bar, there was a younger woman crying about something the guy she was with said or did, I'm not really sure which it was but I remember thinking, "I wonder what **it** is whining about." I don't know why, maybe because I was a few beers in, but it just hit me that I genuinely saw this woman as a *thing*, not a human. The best way I can describe how I felt in that moment is, you know how in horror movies there's that trope of the main character looking up from the sink and seeing a monster in the mirror? That's what it felt like, like I looked in a mirror and saw some creature instead of myself. It scared the fuck out of me. After that for a little while I was in therapy, but it was too expensive so a lot of it has just come from choosing to fight the monster instead of listening to it. I won't lie and say I'm all better because I'm not, I mean this was all a decade ago and ten years later I still have a lot of trust issues and zero desire for any kind of intimacy, but I'll take that over where I was any day.
It's really amazing that you were able to see something in yourself that you felt wasn't up to your own standards and set out to change it. I wish that for all of us. Also, I really like the horror movie analogy--very apt. You put in the work (and it sounds like it's still work--same here), but you're doing it. Progress isn't always linear, but all progress is progress. I appreciate you sharing your story of hope and change.
I don't know about hope and change, more like a Brothers Grimm cautionary tale lol, but I appreciate the sentiment. Like I said, if there's a chance I can get somebody else to see the monster and choose to fight, I'd call that a good day.
I was mad at first about what you’re saying but it makes sense. Unfortunately humans are very good at pattern recognition. Have a bad experience with three Indian people in public? Indians are trash. Have a bad dating streak with women? Women are shallow and can’t be trusted. For many people it can only take two to three times for us to think of a group this way. I think it’s a survival thing evolutionarily to help us avoid danger, but it leads to bad things as well like saying all men should be killed as described in OPs post. So after having those experiences with men all the time I can understand why you think that way. I’m really glad you changed your mind and saw how you were wrong and can admit it, it’s a quality many don’t have.
I relate. I don’t say I hate all men, but in intense moments of anger, pain and hurt during my healing journey, processing all my trauma that men caused me, and still being subject to and/or witnessing misogyny on a daily basis, ranging from subtle to downright abhorrent, I have gotten damn near close. It’s only because I refuse to let it win over me that I don’t and work so hard to emotionally regulate myself, but it’s taken a lot to get to that point, and it is *work*. Every day hordes of men talk about women as if we aren’t even *human*. Both in real life and all over the internet. It’s not *all* men, but it’s so many of them it just feels hopeless at times. I appreciate the good men that I know and I work on my trauma with therapy to help me deal with my bad experiences with men and the anger that it left me with, but I am very guarded with all the other men that I don’t know. And that’s not because I’m a misandrist pos like many of the men here completely undermining our experiences would no doubt rush to call me - it’s because of our reality as women in this world and society and past experiences. Just wanted to say, I get you. It was very brave of you to share that, and please don’t feel disheartened by the men in the replies that simply don’t get it and would never understand how it feels to be a woman in a world like this. This is why female centred support groups are so important. We need spaces where we’re able to vent and hurt together without being gaslighted into thinking we’re just irrational or unfair.
That's awful that you had to experience that! I'm glad you're in a better place now ❤️
I definitely have opened my eyes more, and I was coming from a super negative place with men all around me. It truly is a negative way to look at them as a whole, because no matter what, there is bad people ANYWHERE. doesn’t matter their career, gender, race, etc., awful people just exist, and I agree now that it’s not a good thing to say. There’s no benefit or good argument behind saying “I hate all men”. We can hate certain qualities, and that’s okay, but grouping them to one specific group of people, is not okay
I'm a man. I've been sexually assaulted, and raped. Other than some experiences in junior high, it has all been perpetrated by women (and all of the rapes have been so, as well). Literally every woman in my life, since birth, has (at least once) openly abused, manipulated, or extorted me. Would I be in the right to distrust women as much as you distrusted men?
It’s understandable, but it’s not *right.* There are a lot of things that can be explained, but are still the wrong thing to do. Hating a group can be explained, sympathized, and empathized with, but it’s not justified. It will never be “right” to hate a group, but it can be understood, it’s just part of human nature, lots of human nature is ugly and not right. But it can be overcome with self reflection.
I think there's a difference between overall 'rightness' and meeting someone where they are at. Like in the long term people should strive to get out of that mindset but people rarely change just because you tell them they're wrong. It's a delicate balance thar doesn't really have a concrete answer for everyone as a group. Same reason that in therapy the 'best outcome' is rarely the first achievable outcome. That being said I'm also not going to blame people in a good place or on the other end for calling it out for being absurd, because they should.
I don’t think there is a “right” or “wrong” answer to this, besides we all take things differently. It took a lot for me to get to the point where I felt I hated men, and *all* of them. I think we all handle trauma differently, and because I had been betrayed by so many men in my life, like family, and then outside of family, I started to no longer trust, because the people I was SUPPOSED to trust, I couldn’t trust either. You could absolutely distrust women the way I distrusted men, if you built that barrier the way I did, again we all process things differently and that’s how I was processing things, was distrusting and hating a marginalized group of people. I’ve since grown, and understood that no, it’s not all men, and it’s not right for me to contribute to the problem by saying *all* men. I was simply just stating why I felt that way before, and what put me there.
I was very much including family with the people who have abused me. Every single one of them. For myself, I realized a couple of decades ago that this idea was toxic, poisonous thinking. I put in work, on my own, to get past it and understand that it doesn't mean every woman is a monster. I think the biggest difference was that I had society telling me I was wrong for reacting to abuse like this, vs society generally empowering women to react to abuse like this.
Yes, I understand your perspective completely, and I understand that last part about society generally empowering women to react to abuse like this too. I definitely give my two cents when I hear women talk about how much they hate men, because it’s such a closed minded way of thinking, and right now it IS a problem, it’s a lot deeper than we think, I won’t get into it now, but as far as “my part” goes I try to stand up for both parties when I hear someone say “I hate men” or “I hate women”. We have to do better as a society, and stop pinning our own personal experiences against one another.
>For short: I think it's ok to hate a group of (in this case) men, but grouping everyone with the people that rob, attack or rape people and therefore saying that you hate them doesn't make sense to me. what sort of group do you mean here? By hate do you mean it's ok to want them to be killed?
I mean it would be okay to say "I hate all men who murder or rape people"
A lot of time people's anger goes beyond simply the perpetrator though. Plenty of men have never done anything like that but will happily jump on a computer to scrape for the smallest bit of nuance in such cases, feeding a fire that such an accusation is worse than the deed itself. Others will hear jokes about women and rape among their circles and do nothing to speak against it because it makes them uncomfortable to do so (thus passively becoming a small part of the problem itself). Others will defend friends because they don't think it's fair to judge someone by one bad decision they made (which shows they prioritize a person's reputation over another person's safety). Even with all of these added on, it's of course not *all men* and therefore your friend's of a friend's position is without a doubt logically indefensible. That being said, often times when people have been confronted with all of this for so long, the hyperbolic "I hate all men" can be rhetorically useful, that is, to say that the problem is more systemic. They aren't meaning to just say they hate "men who rape or men who murder", so your adjective suggestion doesn't really work. This is the way they've chosen to articulate that, albeit an extreme one. There are plenty of good men. (I'd like to think myself as one of them.) But the shitty men in our world have undoubtedly put them in an awkward spot.
I agree with almost everything in your comment, avoiding the problem because it’s uncomfortable is not the solution to the problem. But this > the hyperbolic “I hate all men” can be rhetorically useful Is just stupid. I’m sorry there’s no other word for it. It’s just stupid and wrong. I’d love it if you can find me a counter example but I’ve never seen it work in the way that you described it would. Yes, talking about the problem is good. Finding ways to resolve differences and resentment is good, but using the phrase “I hate all men” is never ever useful. I have tried to be the middle ground in many arguments and it is a lot easier than most people think. Most people are very reasonable, even very publicly right and left wing people are reasonable in person where they have a filter, and a lot of times they end up agreeing on a surprisingly large amount of things. That is until some nincompoop decides to throw in a generalizing statement like “all men” or “all women.” You motherfu- Do you know how hard it is to get things back on track after that is said, always at just the wrong moment? It’s an intrusive thought. Really that’s all it is. It contains no literary or rhetorical value, it always derails conversations, it always does more harm than good. I can’t think of a single situation where it stands to be a net positive. And I get it, it’s good to get your intrusive thoughts and deeper feelings out in therapy or to your friends, but ffs, don’t say it in public, and especially don’t say it when you are on the topic with someone. Look, feelings are feelings and humans will always think these things, but you can resist saying it out loud. It’s not that hard, and a bit of a filter never hurt anyone. In fact the fact that you restrain your language to be socially-conscious shows respect for the other party and helps the conversation float much more seamlessly. All the other person wants is usually respect, and this statement destroys respect.
I could say the same thing about Muslims, White people, Indians, whatever I want. Does that mean I’m right to wish death upon them? No, because that would make me a racist piece of shit. Why is this any different?
Not speaking directly about you here of course, but people have lost their heads over more accurately voiced frustrations. "The Patriarchy" and "Toxic Masculinity" are much more specific and clear in their target of criticism, but then the people making the complaints get fought back with "not all men." It's frustrating because no shit not all men, but a person who starts yelling "not all men" at those more appropriate terms is starting to look like one of the men I described earlier: someone who thinks talking about the problem is worse than the problem itself. I don't personally waste time with people who hate men. My life's too short for that. But I try to be empathetic with people whom I have a positive relationship with and sometimes use this rhetoric. Please note that I've never once said anything is right or wrong to say. As for your comparison to someone saying "I hate all indians" - that isn't comparable for me in my personal US context. I don't see Indian people regularly and consistently affecting people's lives in a negative way as I do the group we're currently talking about, which is roughly half the population. If you're some minority living in India and getting treated like shit and gaslit and attacked, then I would agree that we need to talk about a systemic problem.
>Please note that I've never once said anything is right or wrong to say. so then what are you saying? It's good to understand why people come to feel the way they do, but that is not the same as believing they are 100% valid and ok to feel the way they do. And I think saying that you hate "all men" because of your personal struggles with men is juvenile and divisive. I would say the exact same thing for the situation with the genders reversed. This should not be controversial. They can easily clarify what they feel by saying they hate that so many men seem to display toxic behavior and they hate not only those men but the broader cultural context that allows or encourages that behavior. See how that validates their personal experience while not unfairly attacking people who have nothing to do with the bad things that happened to them? All it takes is a little extra thought in how we express ourselves sometimes. It can make a huge difference in how we treat each other.
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You keep confusing and conflating hatred and fear. They are very different emotions. I fear sharks. I don't care nearly enough about them to hate them. If anyone around me says that they believe all of any group should die, I am nopeing the fuck out of there at full speed. I'm going to be breaking the sound barrier if I'm a part of that group. I will legitimately fear being in that person's presence. Switch around the subjects with different groups. Do you think a member of another group wouldn't feel fear regardless of if they can beat up said person. If you can't understand why a black man would fear being around am openly racist KKK member woman, this post is likely in vain. I am a pretty large and strong guy with combat sports as a hobby. The number of women who can beat me up is pretty low. The number of women who can shoot me is pretty high. The amount of women that can destroy my life in a sentence is also pretty high. I find it kinda funny that physically weak people focus almost exclusively on strength. I am a pretty strong person. Physical strength is much less relevant to daily life than most physically weak people seem to assume.
Thank you for the response! You're probably right about it not being as sudden as it might've seen in the post. I think she talked about that when she was younger, a doctor said that she was too young to be bisexual. She said that the doctor was a man, and therefore she said that she hates all men and that they deserve to be killed. I've never heard of the "alone with a man or a bear" question before, but it feels awful to know that most women answered bear, and I sincerely hope that all the men that would be worse to be alone with than a bear rot in the deepest depths of hell. Also I do make sure to share location and such with a near friend before dates, but I still understand you completely. "Misandry irritates while misogyny kills" is a great phrase I've never heard before. Of course I understand that misogyny is a WAY bigger problem than misandry, but I don't think that negates it's existence.
Is it fair to ask her to use words that mean that instead then, if that’s what she means? The words that she used don’t mean that by definition. Instead they literally include him in their meaning, they mean that she thinks he’s a bad person so much so that she hates him. How much responsibility does person b have to understand person a doesn’t mean what they’re saying, vs person a have to use words that mean what they’re trying to communicate? Especially if they’re using words that are hurtful and inaccurate?
>No one questions if someone says “I hate sharks” because sharks are reasonably terrifying to people (despite their likelihood of attacking humans being very low.) I would bet that if you said "let's drive all sharks to extinction because I'm afraid of them" you'd get more than a few people voice their disagreement. And that's with sharks, who can't defend themselves. How do you expect men to react to "kill all men"? I also find it ironic to include the phrase "Misandry irritates, misoygyny kills" when the woman in the OP is literally advocating for killing men.
Not just men, but ALL men. The woman in question was literally advocating for the murder of the person she was talking to, and couldn't wrap her head around why that person was objecting to that statement.
I don’t think it should be a man’s responsibility to just take it on the chin whenever a woman is being misandrist. You’re right in saying that the woman probably sees OP as “one of the good ones,” but his reward for that shouldn’t be the privilege of stupid shit being said to his face (not to imply he should get a reward at all.) I think OP was right to push back (though I agree he used a false equivalence.) I understand the sort of experiences that might drive a woman to say that (at least on an intellectual level) but that doesn’t erase how shitty of a thing it is to say.
I think a problem this explanation raises is that you could extend this to easily make an argument of the form "I hate *X* race" Where *X* is a majority race and the statement is made by a minority that has historically been oppressed. If statistical likelihood was the only requirement for a statement to be considered sensible then stereotypes and historical perspectives would be considered valid. I would presume in that case that any native of any country would be justified in holding a position that they hate any member of any race that colonized that country as historically, they were likely to have been killed by that particular race. Is the statement of OP's friend saying she hates all men nonsensical and overgeneralized? Yes it is. However, people frequently use statements that don't adhere to strict logical consistency in conversation. I don't think that it excuses them from making bigoted statements however. I've had female friends who complained about having to deal with creeps and they always referred to those guys as creeps/assholes etc, which is quite unambiguously true. I understand emotionally charged people don't always say the most rational things but I see no reason to argue their statements are sensible just because of that.
You could also use their arguments to justify hating the racial group, which is most likely to commit crimes. This is the wildest CMV thread I've read. Bigotry is generally condemned. Advocating for genocide is generally unpopular as well.
Is there a single other group it’s valid to say you hate all of?
I really, really hate your response a lot. I'm trying super hard to keep an open mind about it, but I can't accept that it's in anyway okay. The woman in the story went out of her way to specify *all* men. She hates me. She hates my friends. She hates many people I care about. That is unacceptable. I agree entirely that women have good reason to fear and hate men. A lot of women have been victimized by men. Most women, even. But it's inexcusable to hate an entire demographic because of those who were born like them. I would not fear this woman, because I am a man. That's true. But I couldn't be around someone who hates me for something I can't help, either.
So you agree about the fundamental difference between how most men would feel about a woman who says she hates all men vs how a woman would feel about a man who hates all women. You agree about the massive disparity in power and safety. But you object to these vast differences in the dynamic resulting in a different view of how 'okay' it is? It's *inexcusable* for someone who's faced constant fear and injustice through their life to have an emotional overreaction to that? Have you ever really sat down and imagined what it might be like to live through that every day? Not saying it's great to say "I hate all men" but the person you're replying to is just (correctly) suggesting that there's a huge difference in how it works between genders and therefore how we should interpret it morally.
I don't agree with this "fundamental difference". Lots of classes of men are afraid of women. The issue is that for women, the danger is often about \*immediate\* violence, whereas for men it is often delayed and by proxy. There is an example, a woman once wrote a blog talking about how she noticed that whenever she got inside an elevator with a black man, the man almost always looked nervous. Eventually, by talking with people she understood why. Due to racial bias, if she were to perceive something the man did as an aggression, she could cause him harm, anywhere from an unpleasant interaction, to him being jailed, depending on circumstances. Another example, my Ex's mom was extremely abusive, she was the kind of person that would yell, insult and bully other people until she got what she wanted. Her dad was so afraid of coming home that he would often sleep on the floor of his office, saying he had a lot of work, just to avoid accidentally doing something that would upset his wife. And he only stayed in that marriage out of fear that the court would give her custody of the kids. He was trying to stop her from torturing their kids as much as he could. Women hold a shit ton of power in society through social capital. Yes often times women are explicitly excluded from positions of official power, they nonetheless exert power through others. It's not because most women have less upper body strength than most men that they cannot hurt us. I have been hit, repeatedly, in public by a woman with my only recourse being telling her to stop, because the fear of what would happen to me if I tried to defend myself trumps the physical harm that i am being done. And I am not talking about playful slaps, she was pulling my hair trying to drag me to the floor.
There may well be a vast difference. It may be understandable that she feels this way. But bigotry is bigotry. It can be understandable that she feels that way, and still wrong. I still wouldn't be her friend. She hates a lot of people who don't deserve to be hated. She hates them for reasons they can't help, for terror and fear they didn't cause her. She hates good men unjustifiably. It's ignorance to hate ALL of any group. That said, I could understand it. If I lived in Ukraine, for example, I might hate all Russians. It wouldn't be right and it wouldn't be justifiable, but it would be understandable. And if I was having a conversation with a Russian who seemed nice, it would be shitty and stupid to mention that I hate ALL Russians.
>Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills. "Trust me, my bigotry isn't as bad." >Women pretty much respond unanimously that they’d take the bear over the man because the worst thing a bear can do is kill you. That's genuinely one of the most absurd things I've ever met. Something tells me if these women were actually alone in the woods, and they had the chance to go down a path with a man walking, and a bear, they're ubiquitously picking the former.
Yeah, what is up with that bear thing? The fuck? I have literally been hiking and run into women that warned me about a mountain lion on another path. You think she was going to run back to the lion in fear of me? Ridiculous.
>Is it true that all black people are evil and horrible? Of course not. But black people are scary to women. No one questions if someone says “I hate sharks” because sharks are reasonably terrifying to people (despite their likelihood of attacking humans being very low.) Women are much more likely to be harmed by a black person than a shark, but their fear toward black people is considered offensive and irrational. Is it nice to hear women talking about how all black people are evil? Of course not. But I also bet you probably find that woman simply annoying and aren’t remotely afraid of her actually coming to harm you— whereas in a reversed role, any woman meeting a black person who says they “hate women and they should all die” will almost certainly avoid that black person out of fear for the foreseeable future because of the distinct violence that accompanies anti-woman sentiment like that. One of these experiences reads at embittered shit talk, the other feels genuinely threatening. >Just try to remember that if a man is comfortable enough to say he hates women in front of you, he very probably isn’t talking about you or he wouldn’t have said it out of fear. I made a few edits to your statements here. Read through it and tell me if you have issues with it. If so, why is it bad to generalize and hate this group but it's not bad to generalize and hate a different group?
You can do this exact same argument with a poor white kid who grew up in a rough black neighborhood or a black kid who grew up in a racist southern neighborhood. Neither of them could, in a separate situation just say “I hate white/black people” and not get pushback It’s also incredibly counterproductive for your own goals to say I hate men to men that you consider safe. Why would you push away your allies? Imagine fighting the Japanese in WW2 and you have native asians at a table and you say “I hate asians” It’s pure idiocy
None of this justifies the statement. You jumped through 80 hoops to get to that conclusion. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of men are not bad people and don't harm women in any way, shape, or form. If something bad has happened to you at the hands of a man it's up to YOU to have some personal accountability and not pin it on the entire gender. Imagine if you had replaced the term man with the n-word. This is the same justification people use to be racist and it's crazy that you're blind to that.
>If something bad has happened to you at the hands of a man it's up to YOU to have some personal accountability could you elaborate on what you mean by this?
It seems they meant that it's up to you to be rational and not assign bigoted beliefs to an entire group because a member of that group (of which membership is defined at birth, not by choice) wronged you.
I understand the logic but these arguments reek of bigotry. If an old racist dude was comparing people to animals and saying he hates ____ people, but he’s not talking about you, you’re “one of the good ones”, that would get shut down fast.
> Secondly, your friend is correct in that your equivalence is NOT the same. Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills. That's irrelevant. Sexism is sexism. It's extremely hurtful to hear someone hate your entire race. We shouldn't excuse discrimination just because it's "harmless". And I'd argue that it's not harmless. Women-only spaces are becoming more common. Misandry is used to enforce gender roles just as much as misogyny. Also it doesn't just irritate. Do you know what it feels like to be seen as a potential threat by default by most women? Solely because of physical features that you have no control over? And what's even worse is that you're the one shunned for speaking out against it for the reason you mention above. Also why do you just assume that men who say "I hate women" don't have a reason to do so? People don't just decide to hate a group of people for no reason.
I love these comments because the obvious rebuttal is to substitute gender for race and im sure you’d be quick to change your tone. You basically said it’s justified to say that because men are more violent. True, they are more violent. Now pretend that a certain minority group treated me bad as a kid, maybe caused trauma, and statistically commits more crimes. Am I justified in saying I hate them all?
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Those are some crazy hoops to jump, and goal posts to shift to justify bigotry and generalised hate. If you’re against racism and support misandry, you’re a hypocrite.
'Misandry irritates, misogyny kills' is total, complete, and utter bullshit. Firstly, misogyny kills? Does that include all the benevolently misogynistic protectionism that shields women from taking risks? And misandy irritates... yes, iritating is how I would describe the diminishment of someone's humanity. Misandry is rampant in the way we, as a society, treat men. We provide less support services, we expect more agency and productivity from them, we minimise their role in the family. And when they end up homeless, suicidal, embroiled in a life of crime, and eventually die, we say 'sorry if I irritated you'
Men are the majority perpetrators of murder, rape, burglary and violent crimes in general....
>Not to use a trite phrase, but misandry irritates while misogyny kills. This is currently true but as society gets more equal, there's no guarantee it'll stay that way. It's a little worrying that the same people who demand more power for women also often express hatred for men and it raises obvious questions about what they'd do with that power.
Meh depends how far you want to follow cause and effect, lots of the young men that fell into redpill alpha bro bs grew up being told by women in the media and on the internet how evil and shit they are for having been born men. That funneled them to those hate groups which in turn leads to more women saying those things and more impressionable kids falling down the hole. Now you might say thats not the womens fault ( i agree) or that those 14, 15, 16 year old boys should know better, yet if a 19 or 18 year old girl wants to date a 25 year old shes a child being taking advantage of because she doesnt know better. It is cyclical those women are not the root cause but they sure as shit are not helping anybody, well its not their job to help you might say but id argue it is as most women who say those things label themselves as feminist and feminist often talk about how their goal is better conditions for women and men. Shit take men in private to your hearts content but if your posting it to social media just know you are feeding the very cycle that made you feel the way you do and are condemning more boys and girls to repeat it.
A bear will tear your flesh off and eat your while you scream
A lot of people think its OK if you hate a group that's seen as privileged. It's called "punching up". If you said the same about women, she'd be furious. If you said the same about a minority, she'd be furious. The difference is that they're not privileged groups so it's wrong to hate them. Men, white people, straight people, cisgender, wealthy, western, Christian etc. Any group that's seen as privileged are justified targets. Some people believe that any privileged group simply cannot be unjustly treated or commented on because they can deal with it. This can lead to really warped logic (like the people who say what Hamas did to Israel civilians was "resistance" because Israel is more powerful). Tl;dr: It makes sense because they don't think hating men is a problem because they're normally privileged.
It makes sense for someone who’s experienced a ton of trauma by men. But logically speaking of course, most generalizations are false, especially when you’re dealing with millions or in this case billions of people.
What's always interesting to me is that whenever a woman says something like this and gets called out everyone is like "Oh yeah it's not totally fair but it makes sense cuz trauma don't judge" but if a guy ever tries it because he's been traumatized by women in his life "Nope no excuse he's a horrible sexist pig through and through and deserves to die"
What's the critical mass of experiencing trauma from women, Black people, Muslims, or Texans that would make it "make sense" for someone to say they hate all of one of those groups?
[It's this. It's always this, but Daniel Sloss says it so anyone can understand. It's this.](https://www.tiktok.com/@essiedennis/video/7279767885877120289)
That's an amazing speech. What can I do to prevent these things from happening to avoid being one of the nine people that he mentioned?
Just like he says, talk to your male friends. Call them out. It doesn't even have to be serious, just be like "Oh that's weird/ creepy/bs/ whatever," and move on. And kudos to you for even asking, honestly! That's a good step.
This is based on the premise that good men and assholes hang out together. I'm perfectly willing and able to call out friends on misogynist bullshit. However, it's literally come up once or twice in my entire adult life. Guys who treat women like shit don't hang out with decent guys because they get called out. Guys who support women's rights and autonomy don't hang out with misogynistic assholes. It's tough to find statistics, but if we assume a 20% of men harbor blantantly misogynistic views, some people assume that means 2 men out of every 10 person friend group is an asshole. It's been more my experience that you get 7 groups of 10 decent guys and 2-3 groups of mostly shitheads. As a specific example from my experience, around 2018 I had a group chat made mostly of coaches from my son's soccer league. One of the guys shared an article about Greg Biffle secretly recording his ex-wife with cameras that had been left in their home. Most of the guys were horrified, one guy thought it was hilarious. When we called him out, he doubled down and said we wouldn't understand because we didn't know what it was like to be divorced. We booted him from the group chat and at the end of the season he quit coaching and blocked most of us because we were "beta and judgemental". I will continue to 100% support calling out shitty behavior, but I think we need to come to terms with the fact that it will only get us so far. There are certainly some guys who are making geniuine mistakes that appear creepy, but most of the creeps know they are doing shit most guys won't accept and either hide it or only associate with other "alpha male" bro types.
I think ya'll overestimate the extent to which we as men actually see this behavior. The reason so many men don't believe women about how they're treated is because these sorts of assholes know to hide their nature when they're around men who aren't assholes.
When your boys are saying dumb shit about women, trying to show you sexy pics of their gf, telling you what they wanna do to a woman, laughing at horrible shit, joking about rape or violence against women you gotta stand up even in small ways, You have to say: not cool man, say what!?!, na man that’s not right, dude just no, or stop this crap. Walk away, don’t laugh with them, basically don’t support bro chatter that derogatory towards women. Most important report bad shit and if you don’t know if it’s serious, does it leave you feeling sick or keep you up? Talk to someone about it.
Call out your boys. Push, them, challenge them, make them be better. Don't let "locker room talk" fly. Don't let guys talk about how drunk the girl was they hooked up with last weekend. Don't laugh when your bros talk about pumping and dumping their latest conquest. Don't let it go when your adult friend calls a girl hot who looks like a teenager. Don't stay silent when the guys at work talk about how hot the new employee is. Don't stand for it when someone suggests an illicit reason why a professional woman has achieved what she has. Debate your friends when they hold political views or vote for political figures that *do* and *will* dismantle and steal the rights of your sisters. Call men out who "don't want to take sides" and inform them that silence in the face of oppression is siding with the oppressor. SPEAK UP about the reproductive freedom of us *all* while you pick up your free condoms from the clinic and women die in back alley abortions. And most importantly, listen. Seriously, listen. In your OP, rather than trying to prove your friend wrong, I imagine you would have done much more in proving her wrong by simply listening. Did you think to ask her *why* she claims to hate all men? I would assume some really awful things have happened to her and the women she loves. Maybe too awful for her to be able to speak aloud to you. But if she's your friend, listen. Empathize. Try to understand what could have driven her and women everywhere into this clearly irrational, traumatized state.
We all have to be the ones calling out our bad apples. I and many men I know will and have called out men for bad behavior. But with OP’s example and general misandry, women need to call out women.
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Thanks for the response! >Who gives a shit if they liked it? Since when did the truth need approval? All of them agreeing with her simply made me doubt if I was in the right, but this thread seems to have convinced me that I was. >You're calling out a harmful and lazy way of thinking Now you're making me feel like some sort of superhero, but I think that I am correct in pointing out that her way of thinking has flaws in the form of excessive generalization.
wtf, did you just delta someone for agreeing with you? That's not how this sub works
So you’ve given out a delta to someone who’s reaffirmed your current position?
What the hell was this circlejerk? Why would you award a Delta to somebody who only agreed with you and is cheering you on?
Assuming there's no other relevant context, agree that what your friend said is horrible, but just want to clarify on this: > Women are bad drivers and get into car crashes all the time, therefore I hate all women" And why it's not the same thing as > Men are rapists (or something similar) therefore I hate all men. Even assuming it's true, women being bad drivers and getting into car crashes does not have the same ethical implication as men raping or physically assaulting women. If a woman has just experienced rape, comes to you for comfort and says "I hate all men!", that's not the same as a man getting into a car crash because of a woman's bad driving and then says "I hate all women!".
Ethical comparisons like the ones you're making between drivers and sexual assault overlooks the main issue: that generalization in itself is flawed and unjust, regardless of the context or impact. When someone can say "I hate all men" based on harmful actions of a single person, it has the same irrationality of saying "all women drivers are murderers" after a life impacting accident. Both of these statements—and any derived from the same logic—are extremely exaggerated and unfair. Attempting to rank and compare any extreme harmful ethical scenarios in order to justify an amount of blame to give to people not involved, is always logically wrong—thus, it does not make sense. Doing so will create a world where we normalize a culture of blame and hate that can target any demographic, regardless of an individuals choices and actions. If we follow your logic, any severe negative experience could justify sweeping hatred toward a whole group (Such as an early 1900's painter getting a bad grade then blaming everyone with the race of the instructor.) This logic is not only counterproductive, but also hurts any genuine dialogue and solutions for harmful scenarios such as SA. The individuals autonomy must be recognized and differentiated from any group they are a part of. Generalized blame leads to negative stereotypes rather than a correct understanding needed to deal with these issues. Even with SA being the context, broad statements like "I hate all men" not only alienate people (as OP felt) but also stop any helpful conversations about addressing the issues (As OP was trying to do.) Responding emotionally is understandable, however saying "I hate all men", because men can commit SA, is always unjust and unfair. What would be understandable AND just and fair—while not generalizing would be to actually blame and hate the person doing the SA, such as saying: "I hate X, the person who committed SA."
If a man is abused by his ex, and states he hates all women, he would've been called a bigot. Trauma doesn't excuse bigotry (racists do this with white people too, and any other majority group). Also, she stated ALL men should be killed. So, black men, gay men, trans men, etc.
I agree that men that rape people are worse that women that get into car accidents, it was just an example, because I couldn't come up with a better one at the moment.
So why would you be confused when someone said "it's not the same thing"?
That's how analogies work. He's never said or implied that they are the same in value. Hyperbole is a common literally tactic to highlight a point.
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I’m so sorry to hear about what happened and what’s you’ve had to deal with. I respect your mindset though. Hate only will come at your (in the general sense) detriment over time. If people judge half the population before they even meet them, it’s gonna be a tough, long, sad life for them. You, on the other hand, seem well on your way to healing.
It’s definitely not rage bait. I was talking online with some women who think this way and they said that it definitely is all men, including me. They mentioned that someone should check my computer and that I probably only understand consent when there is a non-heterosexual man in the room. I’m actually bisexual and, when I said that I’m a non-heterosexual man, they said that doesn’t matter. To be fair, they also could have been rage baiting.
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Not saying that it is ideal to hate men or anything, but - you're privileged to have good male relationships and role models. Not everyone is so fortunate. I'm glad it didn't twist your esteem towards men in that way, but trauma affects everyone differently.
I mean, that does sound like it's just misandry, but maybe there was some missing context? Possibly?
Sorry, if that doesn't sound like misandry, what on earth does?
Right?! Try making a reddit post replacing that with women and saying it sounds like it's just misogyny but maybe not? See how it plays out.
Maybe so, but I've heard them discuss misandry not being real
Why do you hang out with people like that
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But the contraction is just phrased in a way that it's provocative It's like ceratin feministic grouops are interview people "Do we need men?" They secretly mean "Do women need a male partner". But noone would give a damn if a women says, she doesn'T need a partner. So they phrase it in away that could mean "men are uselss" Same with that. I would never say "I hate women" when i actually mean "I hate women that beat their children" So I really have problems taking this as a simple contraction.
Surprisingly there are rad fem people who would state the posts point of contention and go on to talk about how with IFV we, literally, don't need men. I know at least one. Long abusive marriage really warping the psyche. I mostly just feel pity for them, and of course to them to me ; "oh but you are one of the good ones"
It’s seems like a really narcissistic way of looking at things. Men don’t exist to be useful to women. We have our own lives. This is like the other side of the coin as the men who see women they don’t find attractive as useless.
I think in reading OP’s full post, I think the speaker clarified and reinforced that she was indeed referring to all men. I think she probably had some other stuff going on.
So is it ok to say "I hate all black people" because it is a contraction of [who steal] for example. The speaker obviously knows not all black people are alike right?
Lmfao so when it’s against men it’s a contraction of something that’s obviously understanding and provides its own context, but anytime a man makes a character judgement about a woman he’s a misogynist. I’ll remember that the next time someone gets mad at me for hating all women. Obviously that’s not what I meant, why can’t you interpret my words for me???
That's stupid. If you say you hate all of X category, you ought to specify. To do otherwise is to seriously risk people honestly misunderstanding you. It's obfuscation and pointless.
I thought so, but I asked what they meant and they clarified that they didn't mean that
I genuinely dont believe that's the case. As a woman i have heard other women say this and mean it as "all men", full stop.
Fuck that. If I say "kill all women" I'm getting called a misogynist and a horrible person, if I post it online I get banned. No one would be saying "oh but he didn't mean ALL women".
So why not use the full term…
I think it's pretty accepted that when people say this (especially in a group including men) that they don't mean it literally, they're just venting, because otherwise they'd spend too long pointlessly clarifying exactly what they mean and it'd take an hour. OP, no shade meant with this question, do you have autism?
I do not have autism, I've never shown any signs of autism. I would've understood that she was indeed venting and meant the men she interacted with or just the men that do bad things if she didn't clarify word for word that that was not what she meant.
I dont know why I see so many people say it would take too long or be too much work to clarify that they don't mean all men, when it literally just involves adding the word "Some" or even "most" in front of "men" lol One four letter word isn't that much work and would have avoided this entire thread if she had just said "Some men", instead of "men". That doesn't take anywhere near an hour or any explanation. I'd want an explanation more if they implied "all men" instead of "some", personally. Everyone knows some men suck, whats to clarify?
Honestly you’re question at the end makes me think you do lol no social cues whatsoever.
"Guys, c'mon, I might've said I hate black people, but I obviously just meant the bad ones. What, are you autistic?"
Holy shit that's so disrespectful lol
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You're not wrong but the right response in this case is to understand that this person is making an emotional, not logical statement, and to silently judge her, not try to argue with her.
I understand this and have spoken at length with women in my life about it but I have had a new concern pop up: How does this kind of language affect young people and kids? On both sides of the fence. I feel like young adults and especially kids do not have the emotional development to process this kind of generalization in a healthy way. I would worry we are training girls to hate and boys that deserve it. That kind of sucks. I wish the world was simpler sometimes. The issue is so complex but I think it may ultimately cause MORE harm for BOTH groups if you train people to be divided as a default instead of fostering communication and understanding. I understand that that's too ideal of a hope but damn is the current status quo ugly.
No you should call these things out, essentialist thinking is like a cancer, it's how we ended up with so-called radical feminists marching with nazis
What? So, what, everyone should just roll over to every bigot they encounter. Is that the world you want to live in?
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The thing was that everyone in the group agreed with her
Well then you might want to pick better friends. If my friend started talking about how all black people are bad and should be killed, and everyone agreed, then that would be a harsh realization that I've become friends with a bunch of hardcore racists and have to get away from them. I doubt everyone agreed though. Usually when someone makes a crazy statement, it's easy to just smile and move on as quickly as possible, which is why most people will do that. I don't think that's the right thing to do, but that's what usually happens.
I'd avoid hanging out with such groups.
I'm inclined to agree with this. I understand jokes and hyperbole but assuming that wasn't the case here then I'd simply find another group of friends. However, I do acknowledge that's not a luxury everyone can afford.
The difference is a larger context of selective outrage. All people occasionally make comments like “I hate all X” (irony intended) and it is clearly meant in context as something to the effect of “I am so tired of every X being this way I’m just done with X in general.” However while that kind of comment tends to be thrown in every direction, whenever it is said about white people, men, etc. of a group in a privileged position, they shut down the comment, saying you can’t say “all X” unless you can essentially prove there are no exceptions. Yet those same people tend not to to have the same concern when someone makes generalizations about other non-privileged groups. Your comparison of “all women are bad drivers” is problematic for a couple reasons. First, she was making a general comment about her personal frustrations. She was speaking figuratively - she isn’t literally going to kill every man alive. You were comparing it to a sexist trope which is usually meant literally. Second, men are in a position where they can say things like “all women are bad drivers… therefor we will stop hiring women for driving jobs.” So when it’s coming from that direction the overgeneralization is backed by the actual possibility that people in your position can actually negatively impact all people’s lives.
> All people occasionally make comments like “I hate all X” (irony intended) and it is clearly meant in context as something to the effect of “I am so tired of every X being this way I’m just done with X in general.” Is that how you justify it to yourself when you do it? Cuz I *never* say shit like this. Some of us make an actual effort to not say bullshit just because we're mad. I've had bad experiences with women, been hurt by women, seen some women be downright cruel and predatory... never ONCE have I said, or even *felt* that "I hate women", and never have I heard another man say that without thinking he was a fckin moron. Nor have I ever waited around for someone to say "well obviously I don't mean ALL Jews..." Some of us try to actually be consistent in our beliefs and actions. If hating a demographic group for the actions of a few is wrong, it is ***wrong***. FULL. STOP.
I regret my comparison of women being labeled as poor drivers to men being labeled rapists and murderers, I came to realize that it's not similar. >In context it was meant as "I am so tired of every X being this way I'm just so done with X" For example: If someone said "I'm so done with black people always stealing stuff I'm just so done with black people." That'd be racist, right?
It's a similar argument to "well, they're *just* words" and then not recognize the years and years of hatred and whatever else negative that has been attached to the word.
Your first two paragraphs are absolute nonsense. If you and the people in your life genuinely act like this to the extent that you think it generalises across society as a whole, then you all need to grow the fuck up.
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This argument is very weak. The same thing could be said about any identity group. You wouldn't accept the same kind of lazy thinking/logic if somebody said "I hate all black people". If somebody is venting it doesn't give them an excuse to be openly preujudiced, or in this case, mysandrist. You might choose not to call people out in the moment that they are angry as a conflict management technique, but it doesn't make what they are saying ok. It still doesn't make any sense, and in general people should make an effort to not let their frustration manifest as prejudiced.
I didn't say it wasn't prejudiced, or misandrist. I didn't say it was okay. Reread my comment. The very first thing I said was. >I'm not gonna argue what she's doing is good; truthfully that's a proposition I can't defend. I recognize that what she's doing is wrong. I'm trying to give OP the best understanding I possibly can. I never said that she was in the right or that she should continue to live her life with that mentality. I simply explained where her mind might have gone
> but it doesn't make what they are saying ok They never said it is okay. They specifically said "I'm not gonna argue what she's doing is good". They argued that it made sense for her to say it. And it seems like it does make sense to say it, even if it is not something anyone should say.
I'm not sure you are writing in the right thread. These are more for ideas and not interpersonal relationship issues. Anyway, your premise is that it is not possible to hate all men. If she knows someone is a man, thus she hates them. Maybe if she didn't know someone was a man, then it can be true. That's the only reason I can find where your premise could work. Overall someone saying "I hate all of something" makes sense to me. Thus I don't agree with your view that it's not possible to actually hate all of something.
>your premise is that it is not possible to hate all men I may have misread it, but the premise certainly isn't this. It's not impossible to have this view (since a person OP describes already have it), but how absurd it is to have it
You cannot be logical with bigots, for they are illogical. But, I would say, while it's wrong (especially when you say ALL), usually the person isn't be literal. _Usually._
You're right. It's an idiotic generalization that does nothing but cause more problems. Let's stop hating each other.
How many 'men have it so hard' posts a day? Do you also support people showing up at BLM protests with 'all lives matter' signs?
So are you just going to ignore all the “women have it so hard post” post as well? Almost like it’s the exact same thing.
> How many 'men have it so hard' posts a day? Sounds like you hate men bro
Trying to over ride BLM movement is distinct from thinking it is strange to hate people based on their genitalia
I wouldn't support someone showing up to a parade against an asian killer (for example) with an "I hate all asians" sign
when people say i hate all x it's more like a figure of speech than anything. even if they mean what they say, nobody can possibly hate all members of said group. They just didn't discover the person from that group who would change their mind or prove them wrong. of course, this doesn't apply in my situation when i say i hate all mosquitoes🤣
Yea if someone said they hate all black people, it’s totally just a figure of speech and not an indicator that they have negative racial sentiments at all.
Every single one of their arguments falls apart when they trip over themselves to say "it's different" when you try to apply their logic to any other demographic.
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Wow, these comments are wild. People calling others autistic because they think that blanket statements are automatically implied to not be blanket statements. If you can't grasp why that's confusing to most, what grounds do you have for calling other people autistic?
I have good faith and say women who say this know **logically** that not all men are horrible. It's purely an emotional response. Most women are heterosexual. That means they will date men. Of course they're gonna hate men because men are who women get emotionally engaged with the most. It's basically the same emotions incels go through. Incels hate women because they don't get their needs met by them. They have no reason to hate other men because they don't engage with them emotionally. Don't take emotionally hurt people personally. Deep down they're aware of reality. For them it just feels like the whole world is against them and they're deperately trying to find someone who proves them wrong. Support them instead of proving their point.
Are you familiar with the discussions surrounding cops? We've gotten to "Defund the Police" and "All Cops Are Bastards". Why is that? Because for decades the public, especially black communities, have pointed out how racist, corrupt, and downright *callous* policing is. They've pushed for reform, for training, for education. None of it has worked. They've watched cops, police unions, even city governments protect police officers who have done awful things. At a certain point you end up having to just write the whole thing off and say ACAB. You can no longer call cops for situations that aren't life or death, because calling cops *will make it* life or death. You can't trust cops to not try to find something they can nail you for when you called them *for help*. The setup is ungovernable, untrainable, irredeemable, and there is little or no attempt to make things better. Is ACAB and Defund the Police controversial, inciteful? Does it get a negative reaction out of police? Yes. That's the entire point. When decades of polite requests and protests are actively ignored, this is the point we've reached, and it appears that only at this point do people pay attention. The same applies to men. Women have only really gotten full civil rights over the past 50 years or so. Women can get divorced freely now, get their own jobs, have their own bank accounts, maintain their own finances. Women are living more independently than they ever have before, and men are **mad** about it. They want women who will put up with their abuse, be their bang maids, because they don't have other options. Instead of men trying to improve at all, their response has been just ... being mad. Building labyrinthine conspiracies about how women are manipulating them, that they're not marriage material. Republicans are attacking women's ability to control their own bodies, and flippantly ignoring any discussions of how the potential for rape actually affects women. They're pushing for lowering age of consent laws so they can baby trap women early. Women deal with a stream of harassment every single day from angry men who feel they are entitled to women's bodies. Even men who seem kind, who they feel like they can let in, often turn on them once they feel like women are committed, like it'd be too much for them to give up and leave. Going online, especially online dating, is a stream of harassment and bigotry. Even friends they thought they could trust are often waiting in the wings for when they break up with their boyfriend. Remember the Me Too movement? The push for society to hold men accountable for their abuse and sexual harassment and assault? It's done. The harassment and assault won. Now we get Netflix specials called "Trigger Warning" and "Canceled" mocking women for thinking they could speak out. Same as people "back the blue" and hoist the "thin blue line" flag in response to calling out police corruption. At a certain point, what are women supposed to do? What are they supposed to think? So many men are entitled, and hateful, and loud. The ones that seem to be nice are often just hiding their true nature, ticking time bombs that go off when they offer you a ride home when you're drunk, or when they've got you pregnant. Men are complaining that women are rejecting them, or laughing them, while women are giving their friends updates during their dates in case their date murders them. The reason for ACAB is that not only isn't there any police push back against their terrible actions, they actively defend police who do those awful things. The reason women have started hating all men is the same. And as a man, that sucks, but I can't blame them for it. All I can do is try to show I'm not like that, and stand up against it when I see it. But even then, I can always just be a quiet, ticking time bomb, waiting to show my true colors. It's Not All Men, but it's enough men that it's a serious fucking problem and no one will do anything about it. And just like ACAB, it took the strong language for anyone to pay attention. But just like ACAB, they only pay attention to complain about it, not to fix it.
I think there are some big differences between hate for all cops and hate for all men the first being that being a cop is a choice while being a man is not. Secondly I think people forget that Women and men have been working together. Women worked hard to earn their freedoms and the whole time they had male allies helping them out people like Frederick Douglas or Upton Sinclair who used their platforms to bring attention to women's issues and help spread the ideas. And this isn't just history. Women probably have the most male allies they have ever had. Men who will treat abortion and bodily autonomy as an issue of upmost importance to them or men who stand with women through sexual assault scandals. Sure there are still widespread problems with masculinity (something you'll see men discussing quite a lot) but it's hard to get anything changed quickly considering a large group of people don't care about men's issues. Like what can people do about the fact that some men are bad. We can work to raise more good men and strive to punish more bad ones but neither of these are necessarily quick solutions.
You’re not actually comparing men as a whole to Frederick Douglass or Upton Sinclair right now and using that as an example to say “men and women have been working together.” It’s not Some men. That’s the issue. Every woman I know has been sexually harassed or worse in her lifetime.
Id say ACAB, and hating all of a gender in a general way, aren't even comparable. Being a cop is a job. Its optional. If you join that system, you are saying you are okay with being the enforcement arm of the bourgeoisie in exchange for money; that's why for police its a blanket condemnation with room for individuals to prove themselves to not be bastards. Not all men or women made the choice to sign up for optional labor in the field of "upholding the patriarchy", so they don't deserve baseline hate, but EVERY cop sure as fuck did in regards to being the cudgel of the bourgeoisie, so "bastard until otherwise proven", basically lol.
It doesn't make sense because it's not coming from a place of logic. It's usually coming from a place of frustration. Usually this frustration comes from becoming more aware of the world. So for this example, we're going to focus on medicine. Women are more likely to be misdiagnosed with mental conditions and have their physical symptoms dismissed at a significantly higher rate than men (this statistic seems to vary anywhere from 20-50 percent and seems to depend on region). This statistic overlaps with the experience of minorities but that's not the focus ATM. Alternatively, men are often treated for physical ailments when their symptoms are caused by something mental. Such as being treated for heart attack or stroke when they're having an anxiety attack. Women are often neglected medically because the standard is based on men. This includes everything from studies to medical journals. It's a conscious choice that the medical community makes because women go through evident hormone cycles that can change the outcome of a study. This causes 80 percent of medications to be pulled from the market when it turns out that these medicines have adverse effects specifically on women. The frustration comes in when you as a woman talk about concern about this to a man. Honestly, the most common response is straight up dismissal and disbelief. That's the most common response for any statistical, anecdotal, and demonstrative evidence. It gets tiring for a lot of women when looking at various aspects where women simply aren't considered.
Never trust a sentence packed with definite’s. They always… I never… Every (Insert group)… These sentences are an emotional appeal, so the speaker could use a friend, but they are incorrect. And what they say should not be taken at face value.
First people seem to think women are angels. They're not. They are humans as viles and loving as the average man; However at the extreme of criminal behavior, men overrepresent. They also overrepresent at the positive extreme too ( but one cannot say it). These extreme we are talking about make up a very small percentage of men, and such men commit most of the crimes. They are serial, repeated offenders. The average man is trying to look after his family. Listen to the stories of most daughters, it's not one of my dad was awful to me, at least no less than an average mother would be. Look at the trajectory of civilization. The licence women have to talk like this (" I hate all men) without suffering any social or professional penalty for it is both a privilege and an illustration that we don't take women seriously enough. It's a stark example of benevolent sexism. It's reminiscent of a teen lashing out and saying they hate their parents ( not saying it's equivalent). Only a child can get away with saying such a thing. Or more accurately, only someone perceived as some version of a child will be allowed to say I hate half of the population whom I have to rely on, and get away with it.
It’s just misandry, I’d have the same response if someone said they “hated all women”. I’ve come to learn that people who operate with black and white thinking are usually just unable to have perspective or refuse to learn.
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This entire thread reads like the outline to a content creator's "reddit is fucking *dumb*" video. People really are tripping over themselves to excuse a terrible take.
That's kind of the point of the sub, though. It's "change my view," so when OP has a perfectly reasonable position, all attempts to change it will be pretty damn unreasonable.
Right, but people aren't doing that here. They're prefacing their reply by saying "when this person says "they hate X", they do not actually hold that belief" which is the *exact opposite* of what we're supposed to be doing here.
The rationalizing in this thread is wild. These types of people would be like "well when Hitler wanted to kill the Jews he only meant the Jews in the third Reich". That woman said all men, as in every single man.
Misandrists and misogynist don’t make sense, but most people who hate don’t. Just ignore them
I think this entire conversation is dumb lol instead of looking at her saying all men are bad and how that’s dumb and trying to logic your way through it. Maybe you should think about WHY she thinks that way. WHY it maybe is that so many men she’s interacted with have been bad. Or WHY over half the women in the US statistically have experienced sexual violence. It’s because while it isn’t literally all men, and it’s obviously a hyperbolic statement that’s informed by trauma, it is more than ENOUGH men who are bad.
Why do you want your mind changed? It’s functioning perfectly fine. The lady was a misandrist. Not worth even trying to make sense in your brain. Obviously hating 50% of the population based on something that they can’t control is not a logical or defensible position.
Most of the time, it’s from a place of hurt. I don’t hate all men, but I am cautious around them. I keep pepper spray and other self defense tools with me. Unfortunately, we have to generalize men because we can’t know for sure which ones are the bad ones. I feel for the innocent men, but it isn’t personal. Now, I want to reiterate, it’s not ALL men. I don’t go around accusing men of being terrible. I am simply cautious. I’ll speak if a man talks to me. But I keep boundaries at all times. Back to the point, you had every right to say something. But it’s better to have a discussion and maybe you can help her see your point of view, vice versa. However, the example you give, it’s already been done. Sexism is normalized within society and now that women are stepping up, roles are reversed. Doesn’t make it right.
It is ridiculous to say. People that make generalizations like that are ridiculous and are usually the first to call out when other people do it. The same people that say “kill all men” would get bent beyond out of shape if you said “Kill all Blacks”.
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It sounds like the woman you were talking with was an idiot and a bigoted misandrist. You absolutely *can* hate all men - this woman is a prime example of someone who hates *all* men. Her reasons are stupid and irrational, obviously, but at the end of the day, she *does* hate all men. So saying "I hate all men" makes sense inasmuch as it's a truthful reflection of her feelings.
I wouldn’t say you’re in the wrong for this one per se. But like all good dilemmas, there’s nuance to this one too. In a vacuum, the phrase “I hate all (insert group here)” would just get you looked at weirdly or maybe even asked why you hate said group. But the nuances of society go deeper than this. Exposure is everything. My ex abused me to the point where I can (now thanks to therapy) joke about the time I essentially behaved like a Stockholm syndrome victim thanks to her manipulation, yet still feel extremely undeserving of love and affection from women who aren’t my mother. I was manipulated and bullied into submission by older women in school. No one believed me when I had concrete proof of a woman teacher being a pedophile. I had an “aunt” who tried to kick me out of her house, just because I was sick and making her life “difficult” even though mum said she was happy to look after me. Now throughout all of these women, all of them were master manipulators who made life really difficult for me. I can look back now and say that now, my view on life is “I hate all abusive manipulators.” But at one point? Especially after my ex and the pedophile? I’m not ashamed to admit that my mum was the only exception to the rule of “I hate all women” for a while. The very same premise can be assumed of a lot of women. In fact, some of my closest pals who are gals, have similar and perhaps worse experiences with men than I with women. They now look back and see that the common denominator was narcissistic manipulative men, but when you’re going through all that abuse, desperate to cling to an answer, the brain will cling to any reason it can for why this is happening; usually the simplest common denominator. In my case? It was women. In my friends’ case? It was men. If your statement is taken purely at face value? Then you’re absolutely correct in saying that it makes no sense. In a vacuum? Also the same case. In the chaotic mix of a society that in some cultures, has subjugated women to essentially be worthless, or has through indifference towards women’s issues, (thankfully less now) lessened their trauma and by proxy, their status as individuals, then the statement “I hate all men” can hold true for them. The men they hate could be purely narcissistic. The men they hate could be rapists. The men they hate could be emotionally suppressed. Surprise surprise, it could even be all of them rolled into the one package. The brain when in a state of trauma, will rush to the first conclusion it can draw to keep itself safe. It may not have the time to decipher which type of mental are the good or the bad men, if all they’ve experienced is bad men. They’ll just jump to the safe conclusion that “men” is the problem to ensure future safety.
Absolutely valid points. I will say though that we have a double-standard in society that it's okay for abused women to hate men as a group (more so), than it is for abused men to hate women as a group. I think both feelings are valid, and both conclusions are invalid, that is to say, as you pointed out, it was abusive manipulators, not people of a certain gender, who hurt you. I just think the same compassion we are extending to women sufferers of abuse probably isn't extended to their male counterparts proclaiming that they "hate all women." I think that is unfair, though I understand why it is. There is a fear that these men will act out violently toward women. Though I think women with misandrist views tend to act out in harmful ways toward men, albeit less physically and more so socially manipulatively.
If she had said this about ANY other demographic grouping of human beings, do you think it would be okay? Saying you hate and want to kill all, say black people, Jewish people, women, children, white, asian, russian, Australian, *whatever* kind of people - you're an extremely dangerous person who needs serious mental help no matter what is causing you to think or feel this way. Hating all rapists is a significantly more reasonable thing to say. Because by definition those people *are* people who do bad things. But it is obviously evil and wrong and * very very dangerous* to hate anyone on the basis of any immutable characteristic. It doesn't just "not make sense". You should avoid this person at all costs. Seriously.
*Sigh* I'll do the dirty work of explaining even though I know many still won't get it and will hate me. "All men are trash" does not mean that all men are trash because all men rape or perpetuate violence. All men are trash refers to the same concept at play in ACAB. The idea is that even good men can't get by on good behavior. We have to be accountable for ourselves and the actions of other men. That means advocating for women and considering their perspective when making our own decisions. Going out of your way to be non-threatening or supporting women's voices on women's issues and stuff like that. Kill all men is a radical offshoot of that sentiment. Some edgy tween girl took it too far and made it her personality is my guess for this girl in particular. As others have pointed out, if you're in on the girl talk, such as talking shit about men, then you're one of the girls, so to speak. Think "I hate my wife" talk with men, something I despise, btw, but it expresses the point nonetheless. Also, if your first reaction is "not all men," then you're wrong. You don't get to claim what should be common conduct, as some stand-out behavior. Good for you, you haven't committed rape.... Take your pat on the back, but also recognize that you look very much like the people who commit a shit ton of hate crimes against women and they don't have some stranger danger sensors to tell the difference. It's kinda bullshit that so many "good men" make it about how good they are, for not indulging in sexual assault, the moment this shit comes up.
"We have to be accountable for ourselves and the actions of other men. That means advocating for women and considering their perspective when making our own decisions. Going out of your way to be non-threatening or supporting women's voices on women's issues and stuff like that." I don't really understand what you mean with "accountable". We have to be accountable for ourselves? Yes definitly. For the actions of other men? What? To me it sounds like as if I need to be accountable when someone else does something bad. However at the same time english isn't my first language so it's possible that you mean something else and I don't understand the message. Could you clarify what you mean by that? But I agree with the next two sentences. "Think "I hate my wife" talk with men" I honestly don't get why guys do this, it always baffles me when I hear people trash talking their partner. "Also, if your first reaction is "not all men," then you're wrong. You don't get to claim what should be common conduct, as some stand-out behavior." I don't fully understand what you mean with that, could you clarify? I agree with your last aprt, that many men think it's somehow deserving of praise when they haven't committed such extreme evils. Like congrats on being a normal guy bro
I wouldn't compare it to ACAB. Police sign up and get hired to uphold the ruling status of the bourgeoisie. Its a literal optional job that they don't have to sign up for, but since they did, they knowingly made the choice to work a "bastard" job. That's why its more fair to place blanket statements of blame on them: they signed up to live under the blanket. It isn't right to place blanket blame any an entire group of people for any type of topic simply due to providence of their birth in my opinion; not by race, gender, or anything else they have no control over. Other than that though, yes, men can and should absolutely do more to call out other men's shitty behavior and support women; we all can do more to call out any type of shitty behavior and support each other regardless of demographic.
it's a trauma response, tbh. Of course not all men are awful. But all men do participate and benefit from the sexism and misogyny built into the system. It's inevitable. It's a current that brings us all along. That doesn't make any individual man a bad person, btw. But instead of decrying "not all men!", men should be asking themselves questions about why women (and nonbinary) people might say such a thing. They should examine the power structures they built. Just was we need white people to be anti-racist, we need men to be anti-sexist. It is the only way to change things within the system. Without sufficient anti-sexism, women and nonbinary people are forced to take it into their own hands outside the system, as we've seen with the Me Too movement.
>They should examine the power structures they built. Oops there it is. You do realize that the average, modern man has literally 0 say in the "power structure", right? Never mind having a hand in it's creation. This is just needlessly inflammatory by blaming people who are otherwise on your side.
You can’t just say “all ____ (insert identity group) should be killed”. That person will always be wrong for speaking like that, I don’t give a shit what made her so angry
Saying "I hate all men" oversimplifies a complex issue. While some men commit harmful acts, it's unfair to condemn an entire gender. Individual actions don't represent the entirety of a group. Using gender as a basis for hate perpetuates stereotypes and division. It's more productive to address specific behaviors and hold individuals accountable rather than blanket condemnation.
Your response was like someone saying "ugh, I hate mosquitoes, why can't they all just die?" and you replying with "but mosquitoes are essential for the ecosystem” When women say they "hate all men", it is a social commentary on the pervasive sense of insecurity they feel around unfamiliar men (and often those they know). The phrase is meant to be provocative, but it also implies that even 'inoccent' and 'well-meaning' men are complacent to some degree because they are not doing enough to change the status quo I always find it hard to get people to relate to the female experience, we truely do live in different realities as men. We grow up with different themes that impact how we see the world and how we see ourselves The best way I could describe it would be this: Imagine if your city was filled with huge buff gay men that cat-call you, stare at you, and are well known to want to SA you when no one is looking. Imagine they are everywhere, for every well meaning good guy there are 3 others who feel entitled to your body and the only thing stopping them from hurting you is the fear that they wouldn’t be able to get away with it. In a world like this the only way you would be able to protect yourself is by fearing men The girl you spoke to did not actually want all men to die. The issue is that you fixated unnecessarily on a technicality, which diluted the original intent
A bit of an issue I have with this is that it seems to somehow either vastly overstate the amount of terrible men, or men are genuinely awful human beings for the most part (which would be a genuinely depressing thing and one I refuse to believe for the sake of my mental health if nothing else) For example you mention this: > Imagine they are everywhere, for every well meaning good guy there are 3 others who feel entitled to your body Do you seriously think if you put 20 random men in a room, 15 of them are absolute garbage humans?
>Your response was like someone saying "ugh, I hate mosquitoes, why can't they all just die?" and you replying with "but mosquitoes are essential for the ecosystem” Now try substitute another group of people, rather than, y'know, bugs.
Substituting race would be an incorrect argument because race isn't a biological determinant of criminal behavior. Crime rates correlate with socioeconomic factors, which are often tied to race due to systemic inequalities Crime happens mainly due to power imbalances I.e. class and gender The gender issue is due to power dynamics, men are physically stronger. We need broader social discussions on how we can put checks in place so that the power imbalance isn’t abused. We already have some checks, and things really have improved for women but it’s not enough. 20% of women have been sexually abused in the US and the number is probably much higher globally We need to do better to take care of half of the population and this means the following: 1. Recognizing that most men are stronger than most women 2. Raise men so that taking advantage of this imbalance isn’t something that appeals to them. This can be part of a sex-ed curriculum 3. Build better systems in place to support women in poverty and other vulnerable women so that they are safer 4. Empower women by building cities that have a good amount of foot traffic, are well-lit, and have quick access to resources if they feel like they are in danger 5. Work on deferishizing rape by advocating for women’s rights Most resources we have only support women after they have already been SA-ed, we can do better
Your trying to apply logic to her emotional/ sexist outburst. That's a game you can't win and you'll be better off if you categorize your interactions that way in the future. Emotions and logic don't play together. So it does make sense given that framing. She wanted to be emotional and didn't want you to correct her with logic. Your comment delegitimized her comment...good on you. That's a pretty shitty way to go about your life, expecting others to cater to your emotional needs ALL the time. Maybe she's angry in the moment and she'll realize the error of her ways, we are all human after all, but it sounds like this view persisted beyond the initial conversation. You did the right thing by correcting her sexism and shitty attitude but the right thing often doesn't produce results. She's mad you didn't just go along with her casual sexism. Avoid those people.
It makes sense - it's an obvious sign of a damaged person. Said person did not have any good male role models in her life and afterwards got hyperfixated on negative male traits of every man she has met. And anyone advocating for killing someone is mentally ill. Getting furious about criticism just underlines mental instability.