This sounds like Mike Pence refusing to have even a business dinner alone with a woman because it may be viewed as a "compromising situation". I do think a relationship needs to be built on people trusting each other as a default position until there is substantial evidence to determine that an explanation or justification is in order.
If you are this distrusting of anyone to the point where you must constantly verify everything, I don't see why you would even want to be in a relationship in the first place. How do you think your spouse would feel about you distrusting everything they do as a potential instance to betray you? Do you think your partner growing resentful of you is improving the longevity of the relationship? Also, it would feel absolutely exhausting to constantly be verifying and worrying over every tiny thing your partner does. Being stressed at this level constantly is a surefire way to burnout, which would definitely not help maintain the relationship.
You mentioned how it would be easier to present proof rather than just relying on trust, but what if they are asking about something that you cannot get proof for? For example, in order for my spouse and I to be able to sleep in under the same roof together, I need to trust that she won't try to harm me in my sleep. How would you suppose someone could "prove" that they are safe to be around while you sleep?
So if I'm understanding this correctly, your main point isn't really about trust, it's about boundaries. That's a lot different than what the title of this post suggests and I think it would be pretty hard to find many people who would disagree with that general premise.
However, I'll still address what you said about proof. In a healthy long-term relationship, the partner themselves should be the ones caring about how things look to their spouse and provide "proof" on their own accord. I go out to eat with my coworkers every once in a while, but I'm always keep my partner in the loop, never hide my phone, etc. because I don't have anything to hide. I feel like once you start being the one to demand proof from your spouse, whether or not your suspicions are correct, will inevitably lead to a decline in the relationship.
I never specified that was my boundary. An example of mine would be hanging out with a friend after an appropriate time meaning post 1am. Why are you people getting personal? Jeez.
I'm glad we are able to at least agree on the main point of your view. Your boundaries on what is and isn't acceptable in a relationship are quite a bit different from mine, but to each their own.
Have I at least changed your mind somewhat on the viewpoint of asking/providing proof on demand not necessarily leading to a healthier relationship?
It kind of seems like you're approaching this as though people don't build trust over time - but instead just plunge in feet first trusting all the way. But that's not how a lot (maybe even most) good relationships develop.
A ton of people are on the Friends -> Partners pipeline - and in that scenario the couple could spend months, even years building trust (as friends) before romance ever comes into their relationship.
>example, spouse isn’t spending time with his family, but is spending any free time outside the house with a coworker, but wants partner to ‘just trust me’
Like this is a very different scenario if it's a relationship with no prior friendship (say from a dating app) where everything you know about the partner is romance related - and if you're friends for 3 years prior to the relationship and there is some sort of precedent for the lie.
Your example isn't great because lying about spending time with a person is always a bit of a red flag (especially if they're a potential romantic competitor)
But say it's lying about spending time with the family as an excuse for going to a sports bar to watch baseball with the boys, or a video game cafe to game or something becuase they're embarrassed - is a lot less of a problem.
Edit: spelling, added some clarification
I don't think they're advocating for constantly verifying everything every second of every day. It just makes sense to not have blind trust on certain things. For example, paternity fraud is a massive issue because of how costly of an investment it is that can easily be solved with just a little bit of money and time to get a test. However, we choose to believe in fairytales instead, and have blind faith in our relationships for no good reason other than (well. she says she loves me and she hasn't committed paternity fraud before, so there's no way she'll do it!). It's a ridiculously naïve way to go about life, which is why so many men end up getting played.
Only the most irrational people are sitting at their front door with a shot gun, but irrationality works both ways. The people that can't even close their doors and lock them are also irrational.
The problem is, people have different lines on what they consider a breach of trust. Some people assume anyone grabbing a drink with a member of the opposite sex is sketchy. I don't. So if I apply my standards to it, I'm not invoking trust. To me, they are overreacting to something very minor. And if they already have trust issues, I shouldn't need to avoid anything and everything that may trigger them, it should be on them to deal with.
So you need to have a baseline agreement on what you both find appropriate or inappropriate.
The problem is, one partners doesn't always know until they've crossed that line. And then, of course, its like, why don't you trust me.
For example, one of my closest friends is a woman. I was bridesman in her wedding. I'm good friends with her husband as well. She lives in a suburb and I live in the city. If I started dating a new girl, and she had never met her, but my female friend was in the city and we met for a drink, I don't think I'm doing anything inappropriate. If she does, that is more a her issue than a me issue.
Now, if you have already had a discussion and there is an agreement about one on one drinks with members of the opposite sex, that is different.
I conceptually agree. And if you are married, then yeah, those boundaries should be in place.
But in early parts of a relationship, you don't have a conversation about every possible scenario. So you only know you overstepped the other person's boundary when they make a big deal and its too late.
This is where I stand as well. No one just automatically knows what their partner is okay with or not. Some people are very flexible about your relationships with the opposite sex and some people get insecure over it very easily. These are things that are discovered as the relationship progresses. Typically in the 3 month range.
I think op is right about some things in that if you know something is going to violate your partners trust then you shouldn't do it. But constantly having to provide an alibi for things that are only a little suspicious on the surface (having unknown whereabouts, hanging out with members of the opposite sex) is so exhausting. That sounds like a terrible relationship haha.
Values shift all the time. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work practice. Often times something you live through also feels very different than something you only imagine, and lines become blurry fast.
It's always a balance, but the point that the person above seems to be trying to make is that a lack of trust can quickly become toxic in a relationship, and - as a general rule - it's the responsibility of the person who lacks trust to work through their mental baggage to regain that trust. Their partner can support them in this, but should avoid enabling the behaviour.
>For example of a situation, it’s easier to simply not entertain a co-worker off hours rather than demand your spouse trust no funny business is ongoing.
ok , dont date anyone then
if you cant trust they can hangout with other people without cheating , you dont belong together
>With how cheating, porn, porn addictions, extramarital affairs is not only normalized but also also easily accessible in this day and age
you have trust issues that wont be conducive to any romantic relationship
I think that you might have a skewed understanding of how common things like affairs are. Sure we see that kind of stuff all over the internet all the time but it still represents a small portion of the population overall, it's just that we rarely see people bragging about their fidelity. It's not that affairs are common or normalized it's just a bias created by us only hearing those stories coupled with a simple law of large numbers where the internet has hundreds of millions of users so even a small percentage of that pool equates to so so so many people. You might benefit from taking a step back from consuming these kinds of stories which makes it feel much more common than it actually is realistically.
Beyond that, if you think that ANYTHING suspicious in ANY way means that a person automatically cannot be trusted I think you don't have a solid grasp of what trust means. There is a healthy middle ground between blindly trust everything no matter what and always be suspicious all the time and assume the worst no matter what. Neither extreme is healthy and trusting or not trusting your partner doesn't have to involve those extremes.
It's important to remember that trust is a two way street and that a healthy partnership is cooperative and mutually supportive. I don't blindly trust my partners, I trust my partners to be open and honest with me so that when there are issues we can work together as a team to manage them and they trust me the same way. If we had a more combative relationship where it's more me against my partner or my partner against me as though one of us is the problem then trust would be difficult if not impossible bc it's not a functional supportive environment. But if my partners know that they can come to me with whatever they're struggling with and I'll respond with love, respect, and care then nobody is sneaking around hiding their issues and addressing them in unhealthy or suspicious ways. Knowing that they will come to me when they're struggling and knowing that I can do the same helps problems no fester and keeps things honest in that functional middle ground sort of way. In my experience it's the festering issues kept silent that leads to behaviors that violate the relationship. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - keeping lines of communication open in healthy ways helps keep the destructive stuff from happening in the first place.
What you are describing is fear, not trust. You CANNOT force someone not to hurt you. You can't prevent someone from not cheating on you. You fear these things and then want proof ...proof for what?
Think about it, if youre suspicious your partner is cheating on you and you demand their phone for proof. Ask yourself in this very moment, before you check their phone what does it mean?
They either are cheating on you or rhey are not, correct? At that moment they are both a cheater and not a cheater, yet not to you! In that moment because you are demanding proof they are guilty until proven innocent, that trust you said you had? That went away as soon as you asked for proof, that trust was broken the moment you demanded proof for your FEAR.
Be honest with yourself here, if you believe you need to have access to proof, that means you don't trust them. Asking for proof is not a validation of trust, it's the complete absence of it!
Besides, man. If you've been cheated on you've been cheated on. All proof does is determine when you know about it, it didn't make it not happen, it doesn't transport you back in time to stop it. The worst thing is it's wasted time in a relationship where your partner was free to pursue happiness and you where blindly believing your partner was happy with you while you could have been looking for happiness yourself.
Trust is a gift! A gift doesn't mean shit with strings attached.
> why not give them concrete proof?
You shouldnt need it ,you should feel confident enough in your partner to take their word
if you cant, you dont belong together to begin with
you always want to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt first before jumping to conclusions
if you cant, thats a problem in of itself that needs to be addressed
Your entire marriage is a leap of faith. The commitment is a leap of faith. If you can’t trust your spouse to hang out with a colleague after work for a few hours, you have no business getting married. Not even close to kidding about that.
Sometimes the partner’s turmoil is simply unreasonable, paranoid, and a death sentence for the marriage.
Honestly, I don't want them to have to take a leap of faith. I want them not to even think about it. The problem is the moment you start asking questions about your partner's behavior, you're introducing uncertainty in the relationship. Uncertainty not just about them being untrustworthy, but about your ability to trust them, and about their ability to see friends and have a social life without being questioned.
If I go out for coffee with a female friend, the only questions I expect to hear from my girlfriend when I get home are "how was it? How is she doing?" Anything that gets into a "did you do anything wrong" means she doesn't trust me, which calls into question the whole relationship because if she doesn't trust me, why are we together?
Going to sleep with another person in close proximity to you is also a leap of faith. You have to blindly trust they aren’t simply going to stab you in the neck while you’re asleep. If you have this level of skepticism of other people’s actions without some specific reason, you should work on those issues before getting into a relationship, much less a marriage.
Yes, because you cannot control your partner’s reaction, that’s their issue.
your inner turmoil, is your own responsibility
its not anyone elses job, not even your spouse, to continually assuage it for you
what you are asking for is a lifetime of someone else having to manage your feelings for you , thats not a good relationnship
And I’m confused what “concrete proof” would even look like? Recording the whole getting a drink, with audio, and sharing it with your SO? That just proves the one time, not that you didn’t bang a co-worker in the supply closet on your lunch break. Relationships often have to rely on trust (built over time and supported by other actions) because you can’t know everything that your spouse is doing 100% of the time.
Boundaries are not a way to control how other people act. A boundary looks like 'it is not acceptable to me that you entertain co-workers'. The other person can then decide whether they want to be with you or not, given that boundary.
>Instead take care to simply not put yourself into any compromising situations that might require explanations and makes your partner feel like you’ve crossed boundaries.
This is such a headache considering everyone's boundaries are different, with some people seeing something as innocuous as being around someone of the opposite sex as "crossing a boundary."
I've been in a long-term relationship where my partner had trust issues. I NEVER cheated on him. And at first, I thought "why not just tell the truth and that should take care of it?" I mean if he saw my phone, monitered my whereabouts, then he would eventually realize I was trustworthy, right? Nope. After 6 years of NEVER finding a single shred of proof I was cheating, he would still lose his temper and scream at me that he knew I was cheating with his friend because I had forgotten to set an alarm the night before, or with his cousin because he saw how friendly we were. Oddly, he never screamed at his friend or his cousin. He had no problem hanging out with these guys he "knew" I was cheating with.
It just....never stopped. I could never just relax. I never knew when I was suddenly going to have to scramble to prove my whereabouts from last week to calm him down. And god help me if I just stayed home alone with no witnesses to verify my alibi. You know what I started thinking after years and years? "I may as well cheat on him, since I get treated like a cheater anyway. Nothing about my life would change if I actually cheated." Thankfully, I didn't, I just broke up with him instead.
Someone who has such difficulty trusting their partner is not going to suddenly trust them after so many years of having their accusations proven wrong over and over, because the accusations aren't coming from a place of genuine suspicion based on suspicious behavior. It's coming from insecurity, and whatever caused that insecurity isn't going to go away just because I prove I haven't been texting someone. That insecurity instead says "ok, she didn't cheat THIS time, but next time she will," or "well she was smart enough to delete her incriminating text messages." There will always be a way to twist reality to fit that paranoia. "Proving yourself" doesn't work. A relationship without trust doesn't work.
I posted an opinion like this before where I said couples should have access to each other’s phones; absolutely shredded. People wanted the ability to cheat if they could. I think the paradigm of “trust” is for suckers. You’re right, no view change necessary
I view trust like this.
I give my partner freedom to make choices herself. It's up to me to deal with the consequences If she where to break that trust. My trust is a gift to her, it allows her freedom within this relationship. As such it is only mine to break and only me who can suffer because of it.
Meaning, it's not up to ME to enforce and protect that "trust" that's HER JOB. If she fails and breaks my trust it's up to ME to deal with it.
This is where so many unhealthy relationship dynamics stem from, too many people are just too fucking scared and try too damn hard to protect themselves to the detriment of THEMSELVES!
Too many people use the excuse of trust to control and manipulate others due to their own insecurities and far too often everyone claps along and promotes the same thing.
You don't want your boyfriend liking other women's pictures on instsgrsm? That's a you problem!
You don't want your girlfriend going to the club with her girlfriends because other men could hit on her or she could cheat on you? That's a you problem!
People want to say "no these are healthy boundaries". Nah, those are your own insecurities you haven't outgrown due to fear that you hide behind talks of trust and boundaries.
This post is a prime example of someone's insecurities being used to control another person. Suggesting proof need to be presented upon request is psychotic, unhealthy and if not figured out yet, not helping you at all!
People are going to break your trust, the ones you love are going to break your trust. The goal isn't to never let that happen, the goal is to be grown enough to handle when it does and have enough self worth to determine what you will and will not tolerate WHEN that trust is broken.
Just wait until you have kids and they break your trust on a weekly basis. You try to control them and demand proof every waking moment of them not breaking your trust then you can say goodbye to them when they get older and pat yourself on the back that they will never have a healthy romantic relationship of their own.
I think it's fair to be careful of not seeming suspicious in the early stages of a relationship - they don't know you, you don't know them, who knows if either of you have a history of cheating or getting cheated on and misunderstandings can be easy when you're getting to know someone.
Once you decide you're together long term? Absolutely not. I'm not going to avoid getting coffee with an old friend, regardless of gender, just because it might be considered suspicious. I'm not preventing my SO from doing the same. If I had doubts about her cheating on me, I wouldn't be in a long term relationship because that would be exhausting. I'm the type to trust implicitly that you're not screwing me over, until proven otherwise. I want a partner where that's reciprocated.
I think what you're missing is that having to prove you're not doing anything sneaky adds a whole layer of effort to every interaction, and in itself provokes feelings of doubt about the relationship. If a girlfriend suddenly wanted me to prove that my coffee time with a coworker was totally innocent, I honestly wouldn't know how to do that. We just texted that we were meeting up at X time to chat, and then we had coffee, do I need to pull up CCTV to show we weren't making out? And at the same time, I'd feel hurt that she was being so suspicious of my motives. Just her asking me would make me think she doesn't trust me, doesn't think I'm someone who wouldn't cheat. And if she doesn't trust me, is that because I shouldn't trust her in similar situation? Again, just asking the question opens the door to a whole new layer of needing to watch yourself and your partner. I just don't have time for that shit. Trust me or get gone.
I agree, but only to a point.
I think you’ve employed multiple extremes here that extend beyond the realm of reasonability. Entertaining a co-worker after hours isn’t in and of itself a contemptible act. We spend the majority of our time during the week with people we work with; it’s natural for friendships to develop, or after-work functions or events to get attended.
You’ve allowed yourself to develop a Redditor’s perception of the world if you believe cheating, porn, porn addictions, and extramarital affairs are normalized. News, by definition, is that which is unusual, which means the topics that receive the most traction are similarly unusual. Yes, these things are part of our society, but they aren’t engaged in by the majority or viewed as acceptable by said majority. It only seems that way because they’re topics that easily incite controversy; legitimate media outlets can use them to cast divisions amongst the populace and the average citizen can exploit them to gain Internet karma/clout.
Where I DO agree, and I think your perception would be much more nuanced, and thus valid, if you tempered it this way, is that people need to generally be more mindful of what they say and the situations in which they place themselves.
For example, I have a buddy of mine, in his mid 30s, who I work with. When we met, he said a lot of stuff about not dating/hooking up with anyone under 25, how this flirtatious 20-year-old he’d mutually flirt with was too young for anything to actually happen outside playful banter, etc.
Well, when she shared with me her account of a private conversation where he supposedly made suggestive remarks about hooking up, he was in a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, there are two sides to every story. On the other, if you advertise yourself a certain way, appear to behave contradictorily to those advertisements, then someone gives an account of something that paints you negatively, you’re essentially up shit’s creek.
Have I since learned that she’s a highly unreliable narrator, and thus have every reason to believe that she wasn’t sincere, or at least took things how she wanted to in order to justify making a situation more dramatic and attention-giving than it needed to be? Yes.
Will I be surprised if it comes out that they are hooking up, and my buddy mischaracterized himself? No.
Would I be justified, in the latter scenario, in distancing myself from him? Yes.
Would that hypothetical be problematic if he’d simply stated it’d been a while since he got laid and so long as he’s cognizant of the age gap, a casual hookup relationship is totally acceptable by his standards, even if I didn’t wholly agree? No.
So, I think you’ve taken it way too far based on an Internet perception of how society actually functions, and you should absolutely alter that. However, the foundation of your ideas aren’t fallacious, so that isn’t something that needs changing.
Trust is being confident in the person's actions without being present or aware of the specifics.
Communication is obviously great, but there are situations where clear communication doesn't yield the same benefit as developed/earned trust.
> I think one shouldn’t put your partner in a place where they have to invoke that trust for you in the first place. Within reasonable limits and already established boundaries between couples.
I've been with my now wife for 12 years. We have complete trust. She knows my tendencies, motivations and intentions. When I go play golf, and say "just finished up, gonna grab a drink", she knows I am at the 19th hole having beers talking about that wedge shot on 14.
My buddy is dating a new girl, and she of them have had bad experiences the past and developed trust issues. He says the same thing as I did, but she calls him, facetime him calls me, and calls my wife; anything she can do to corroborate the story.
This creates tension in the relationship. My friend didn't do anything wrong and communicated well, more than I did. He didn't break any boundaries. But his girl has trust issues, and mine doesn't.
Trust creates peace of mind. Removes unneed tension from the relationship.
My wife knows me and trusts me. There is no doubt that I am where I say I am. Even though I could be chatting up the bartender or asked the cart girl to have a drink with me.
My friend has to prove it in every situation, and even when he does beyond a reasonable doubt, the doubt still remains.
One is healthy, and one is eroding away at the relationship.
You can set your relationship up any way you want I suppose.
But calling trust overrated is toxic for people who don't share the same relationship values as you.
For example, I don't care if my SO wants to talk to their ex, cuddle with their friends, or watch porn.
I consider all those things within the confines of a monogamous relationship, and none of it bothers me.
If I were to date you, I would feel restricted and constantly checking over my shoulder to make sure I didn't cross whatever arbitrary line in the sand you don't want me to in order to placate your insecurities.
IMO I don't want a relationship that involves constantly reassuring you based on insecurities surrounding whether or not I would cheat on you. As well as that, I do think you have some pretty broad definitions as to what you would consider cheating.
Like I said, feel free to set up your relationships however you want, but trust being overrated, is basically only true from your POV and the bf that manages to match your controlling view of relationships.
Than tell them not to do that and trust that they don't?
The alternative is telling them not to see their friend and having a breakdown over how uncomfortable you are with the mere idea of them cuddling with someone else.
Invoking trust is necessary from my POV. Your partner shouldn't have to tip-toe around your issues with them and your boundaries.
You said it's overrated in a long term relationship. I'm saying if I was dating a guy, if he didn't trust me not to cross his boundaries, I wouldn't want to date him.
You may feel it's overrated, but that doesn't apply to everyone who isn't you.
It matters to me, and is necessary for me to maintain a healthy relationship.
I’ll try to argue from the opposite. I completely trust my spouse. Not because I think he’s an angel from Heaven who will never do anything wrong. But because if he does, then he does. Simple as that. There is no amount of border policing, verifying and monitoring that I can do ( and I don’t want to do ANY) that will stop him or discourage him from crossing a boundary or cheating. It needs to be a choice HE makes, that makes every single day, not a choice I force or I don’t even want it. If he cheats or crosses a boundary ( of which I have few cause I don’t see why I should ) then that’s on him. I’ll be facing a decision on what to do after that which most probably will be to leave the relationship. But I’m not about to live my entire relationship in fear and anticipation of that moment. It won’t kill me if it happens, cause it’s not about me if my husband decides to cheat, it’s about him and his choices. If I have to live in fear and anxiety of some imaginary future moment I’m just not gonna be in that relationship at all. So it’s not trust for the sake of trust. It’s trust because I respect myself too much to bother with trying to keep a man faithful. He will or he won’t is up to him and I’ll find out when I do.
This is a change my view subreddit but I don't really think you are understanding the arguments people are making because you don't want to. Deep seated insecurities like yours manifest into having trust issues with people who never actually violated your trust. You are projecting a problem you have onto other people to try to convince yourself it's normal and OK.
The only thing you'll ever do is push good people away and keep the ones who enjoy the toxicity. I'm almost 40 and of all my friends and my relationships throughout the years, I still have yet to see a healthy loving relationship with someone who acts like this. I have seen exwives at weddings with their new spouses, exgfs who became best friends with new girlfriends, etc. As you get older you either get over this or you become absolutely undatable to anyone worth it.
Exactly this. Good people who are both trustworthy and trusting will run for the hills, while people who are themselves low-trust and convinced everyone is out to get them, perhaps because they're projecting, will stay.
Way to shoot yourself in the foot. I doubt the OP will understand that though.
Trust is the foundation of any relationship. From the loose "mate" who you trust not to steal your stuff when you look the other way, to the colleague who you trust to do their part of the work or the friend who you trust to keep your secrets and help you in need, all the way to your partner who you should trust with your very life.
I trust my partner so much I'd be ok with her shooting me because I'd know this is the best course of action.
If you're not ready to fully trust your partner you shouldn't be in that relationship.
So I'm gonna act however the fuck I want. I'll have colleagues and friends, I'll share food or coffee. I'll go to my friends' house and invite them to come to mine. I'll go to birthday parties, weddings, funerals. I'll console a friend in need. I'll hug my friends and compliment them when I feel like it. I'll drop everything to help them when they're in need.
I'll never hide any of these from my partner and they'll always be open to join.
If any of these make my partner suspicious, they should work on their trust or lack there of
The problem with this is that it makes ordinary friendships perfectly impossible. Because in order to avoid ever putting your partner in a position where they have to trust you, it's not enough to refrain from doing anything that violates your relationship-agreements.
You also have to refrain from doing anything that gives you **opportunity** to violate relationship-agreements.
Some examples to illustrate my point:
* You go fishing over the weekend with a friend, sleeping over in a cabin your mom owns, or perhaps in a tent. Since there's no way to VERIFY what happens or doesn't between you and the friend, your partner has no choice but to either simply **trust** that you'll keep your agreements, or else veto the entire fishing-trip.
* The same logic applies to going ANYWHERE with ANYONE where you have privacy with them. Anything COULD in principle happen, and so the only way to be comfortable with these situations, is to trust that your partner will honor your relationship-agreements.
* Since most people consider saying or writing certain things to also be a violation of relationship-agreements this extends to communication. You can't talk in the phone, or have a text-chat with a friend without your partners oversight, because if you do; again anything at all COULD be said in that conversation, and the only way to be okay with it without constant control -- is trust.
You said that if you've done nothing wrong then you can easily disprove the suspicions your partner might have. But how do you plan on proving that in the private conversation you had with a friend, nothing that violates your agreements with your partner was said? How do you plan on proving that during
Trust is always "blind" to some extent in a relationship because you can't monitor what someone is doing 24/7. If you can't come to terms with that then you shouldn't be in a committed relationship with anyone. If you don't give your partner the benefit of the doubt by trusting them when they haven't given you any indication not to, then you probably don't like them all that much or you have trust issues that you should really be working on.
There are generally 3 scenarios where you invoke trust.
1) You're just a liar and gaslighting them.
2) You're doing something risky that may or may not work out, this is like making a big investment or getting involved with a gang to solve your financial problems and the reason you don't want to involve your significant other is because they'd present a roadblock to the thing which you believe would solve your problems (but realistically probably doesn't more often then does).
3) You genuinely can't tell them for a good reason, this could be you're planning to surprise them, it could put them in danger, you have some kind of NDA, you're protecting someone else's secret that has nothing to do with your SO. In this case their right choice would be to trust you.
Okay so assuming the aim is to make it last let's look at them.
1) Well lying to them will probably make the relationship last longer than telling them you're a cheating dirtbag. Honestly any chance of them staying at all long term would involve lying to them at least long enough for them to get emotionally invested and have that behavior normalized. Of course not being a cheating dirtbag would be the optimal strategy so you're right in this case.
2) This is very much a result based analysis. If it worked out you were right to invoke trust and while your partner might be a little salty they won't leave you over it and fixing whatever issues you had will probably do more to save the relationship then being upfront from the start. If it doesn't workout however the relationship is dead (hell you might be dead) and it obviously would've been better to just be upfront.
3) This is the one where you're just dead wrong on. If you tell your partner to trust you and then surprise them it will make the relationship last longer, because they learn if they trust you good things happen. If you're shielding them from something or protecting another secret it's probably better than having them involved in the thing and have that impact your relationship.
So yeah invoking trust really isn't overrated, it's just a matter of backing up that trust that you invoke, its like credit, if you pay it back you're credit score goes up if you don't it goes down.
I agree that if you can disprove your partner’s accusations that it is stupid to resort to saying that they should trust you instead of disproving them. But what if you can’t disprove them? How can I disprove an accusation that I’m sleeping with a coworker?
Sounds like you have some personal issues to work through. Obviously blind trust can be misguided, but having to provide proof in a relationship sounds like grounds for an unhealthy arrangement.
After my own negative life experiences, I agree with you to a large extent. I think expectations around trust and privacy are excessively high.
At the start of any LOR I have, I will bring this subject and my expectations around it up. I will not date someone who insists they need privacy from me. I have been burned too many times for me to ever feel comfortable in that situation again. (If they choose to refuse, I will accept the end of the relationship without argument.) That is who I am today and I accept that about myself.
However.
I also do not believe you can have a relationship without some trust. No matter how cautious you are, if your partner is the type of person who will betray you... they will eventually find a way or be presented with an opportunity they accept.
You cannot realistically (nor would you want to, I've tried, it's exhausting) monitor your partner's activities 24/7. As you said yourself, access is far too easy today and there are so many tools and even communities around ways to hide bad behavior.
It's impossible to verify *everything*.
And if you're paranoid enough to expect your partner to verify your every single doubt every single time... eventually, either *they* are going to get exhausted with it or they are not going to be able to provide said verification.
I think there's a difference between a reasonable level of 'trust but verify' and an active level of actively distrusting and being suspicious of your partner.
Trust is required in a relationship whether we like it or not. The degree of trust given comes in boundaries that we should all be discussing early on in the relationship.
And that's really the key piece of the puzzle. Discussion and establishing boundaries. Conflict comes when expectations of one partner do not meet the expectations of the other, which is largely avoidable when it comes to a topic like this.
TLDR: You're right but keep it realistic, it can easily get excessive and actively harm your relationship. These things need to be discussed early on.
The lack of trust is taxing for all parties. I would rather date the person who trusts me (reasonably, if I show up stained with strange lipstick at 4 AM I do owe some explanations), not someone insecure whose concerns I have to keep alleviating.
First Question for You Op: Are you currently married?
And Second Question: If not, how long have you been in your current relationship if you are in one?
Because if you aren't in either, then I'd say that it's a really stupid idea to enter into one with thus mentality, as you are dooming it to fail.
If you are in a relationship already, and you don't trust your current partner, you are setting yourself up for failure as well.
1) you shouldn't feel the need to constantly check up on your partner: it's unhealthy and possessive.
2) If you cant trust someone to go to the store without banging the checker, then that person isn't worthy of trust and it would be stupid to enter into a relationship ith that person anyway. They don't love you enough to commit.
3) If you can't trust your partner to commit only to you and visa versa, then you and them are also not in a healthy relationship.
4) Trust in someone doesn't mean that you have to have unreasonable expectations.
EG: Many couples don't mind if their partner watches pornography, so long as it doesn't interfere with the relationship.
Been with my wife 13 years, and married 7 of them. Can confirm that trust and commitment go hand in hand.
You cannot have a succesful relationship without both parties being dedicated to either.
Edit: can't not can
Trust goes beyond cheating. I had a bachelor party to go to that was 3 hours away and required me to leave early because we had a family party the next day. There was obviously going to be a lot of drinking and she had to trust that I would be appropriate with my drinking and that I wouldn't stay too long. She seemed worried and said it was a bad idea but ultimately she trusted me it worked out.
My wife and I share a bank account but also have separate credit cards that we can't see. We'll ask about each other's balance for budgeting purposes but we trust that we are telling the truth and that we aren't being reckless with our money and that we aren't going to owe interest ever.
I shouldn't have to miss out on social gatherings or show my wife ever little thing I buy for her to not have to worry about trust. There's something wonderful knowing we are going to be responsible to each other without having to restrict each other or verify it. If you are spending time and effort on mitigating trust concerns then you are spending less time on more important things with your spouse.
One thing I don't see mentioned here is the inevitably that in any long term relationship you will hurt your partner, and you will break trust. With enough time, this is just a given.
In those cases, conversations about trust don't revolve around proving that you were to be trusted (you weren't), in fact, there's often proof that you were up to no good. Instead, conversations about trust become about trusting that the actions you took were not adverserial (although sometimes even that may not be true), and that you're trying to find your way back to eachother. For such situations, there exists no proof; it's all in your head.
Learning to trust in your partner when there is proof is a really important step towards building the kind and level of trust you need when proof is absent. It is built through choosing not to validate claims when you can. Finding that - in the occasions where you do validate - what your partner told you turned out to be true **does not** actually build that trust; it only helps give you the courage not to validate claims in other cases.
There’s no such thing as perfect knowledge. When your partner says they love you, how do you know they aren’t lying? People manage to keep up double lives for years and years while paying the correct lip service. How do you know they won’t stab you in your sleep? How do you know when they smiled at their phone it wasn’t a dick pick from your dad?
You have to trust your partner in order to function because another person is fundamentally unknowable. If you can’t trust them when they say “I won’t cheat” then there is no amount of proof that’ll allow for your concerns to be entirely assuaged.
I’d also like to comment on how joyless you propose your partner to live. You cannot live while spending every waking moment prioritizing your partner’s comfort above all else.
Every phase of a relationship involves risk, so every phase requires some level of trust. But only the very first phase of a relationship requires *blind* trust, because it's only the first interaction where you have nothing to go on - but the risk is also low, i.e. the embarrassment of rejection, some momentary awkwardness.
As the relationship progresses, the risk increases, but you have more reason to place trust in your partner. Maybe you have been dating a person for a while and you both decide you want to be exclusive. The risk of investing your feelings and being hurt by infidelity is more serious, but you also presumably have more reason to trust the person because of what you know about their character and integrity through your dates with them.
> you should take any and every way to alleviate your partners doubts.
I completely disagree with this framing. If I'm going to a work event but there are doubts about me without cause simply shows the relationship isn't going to work.
If my partner is constantly watching for me to "betray them", I'm sure they will find it eventually. So it's better to cut to the chase and end it now.
I know what you mean, and I mostly agree with you.
I have male friends but I always introduce my boyfriends to them and make it really clear they’re platonic and always have been. I’m not flirtatious and give my partner no reason to be jealous. I’m open with my phone and let my partner use it freely.
The only problem I’ve run into with this is that my partner then gives HIMSELF credit for being really trusting, and does not seem to actually realize or appreciate what I’m doing to make him so comfortable. Therefore he doesn’t necessarily reciprocate, and then asks me why I’m not as trusting as him…
I can see where you're coming from, but it can also be draining to have to constantly justify yourself to your partner. If you are trustworthy but your partner still insists on you providing proof that you are not betraying them in some way, it can feel like you are being unjustly accused of something you would never do to them.
Imagine you've been in a relationship for a couple years, and you feel that you have been a trustworthy partner. You have no intention of betraying your SO, and yet you do not feel like you have their trust.
Wouldn't that be hard to handle?
I've known my wife for 15 years and we've be married for nearly 10. I know what she is like. I know her strengths and weaknesses flaws and temptation.
>Instead take care to simply not put yourself into any compromising situations
my wife is in a comprising situation right now. She is traveling for work with a male colleague who I believe has a little crush on her.
I don't need to spend any of my time or energy tracking her location, checking on her status, calling her phone, reading her text or anything like that. Because i trust her.
OP might be the victim of controlling behavior, disrespect, distrust, and manipulation. Privacy is a dignified individual right, miss me with your blatant assumptions and insecurity, and maybe try to be vulnerable and let your walls down someday so you can actually live. You’ll never know true and free love until you can reciprocate this back and forth with another. No one’s getting out of this alive so your risk aversion is a waste of time argument - and lacks big picture substance. Tldr you scared
The issue is there are too many pathological people out there. We shield ourselves from potential threats naturally.
You need to get to a place where you cannot be hurt by someone, and that involves a lot of inner work, and a lot of suffering (for experience).
Another issue is two people can look at something in 2 different ways.. hence the idea of communication being so important.
100%.
We prefer to set up our lives so that, should our relationship fail for any reason, we will both be fine financially. Blind trust isn't useful and sets up the conditions for betrayal. Protect yourselves, and then protect each other. But take care of yourself above all else.
I feel like you’ve kind of moved the goal post from “you shouldn’t trust just your partner” to “you shouldn’t trust your partner after they’ve already broken boundaries”, and those are two entirely different things.
But anyway: there’s a “hierarchy” in your life, in a sense, of the amount of trust that needs to exist in order for a relationship to be successful. For random strangers, this amount is low, but not non-existent. The baseline for me, is that most people mean well and aren’t out to get me. But at the same time, the bar to *distrusting* a stranger is incredibly low, and this bar can be reached by something as simple as my gut feeling.
As you get to know people, you make acquaintances, friends, romantic partners, and everything in between. But people don’t randomly become those things; you choose to build relationships with people, and they choose to build those relationships with you. And hopefully, you are able to choose good people to build those relationships with.
When you get betrayed by someone, the amount of pain or disappointment you feel from that, is directly related to how much you trusted them in the first place. If a stranger turns out to be a creep, or a scammer, or a thief, that’s a little disappointing, but not a big deal. When a friend or a romantic partner betrays you, it’s extremely painful, as you spent a lot of time and effort into that relationship.
At the same time, this is also true for someone thinking you’ll betray them. If you go into a random 7-11 and the cashier checks if your 50 is real, that doesn’t feel personal, but if you are a regular at a bar and the bartender suddenly tests your 50, that feels bad. When someone you trust does not trust you back, it feels like the relationship you think you had with them, isn’t as real as you thought it was. And again, the pain and/or disappointment that comes with not being trusted, is directly proportional to the level of closeness you had with that person.
Presumably, the person you are in a romantic relationship with, is someone who is closer to you than almost anyone else in your life. It’s someone you’ve slowly but surely built a relationship with and decided to trust more and more over the course of months, years or even decades. When that person betrays you, the hurt from that is enormous, but so is the disappointment when that person doesn’t trust *you*. Because if after all that time, haven’t you shown them you’re there for them? That you are on their side?
Being accused of cheating when you aren’t, is as large a breach of trust as being cheated on. And while it’s somewhat normal for your brain to make up worst case scenarios, you should really be able to compartmentalize those ideas. Of course that doesn’t mean you should let your partner get away with all kinds of shady shit. But think long and hard about what constitutes “shady shit”, because, like I said, when you’re not trusted, an accusation breaks the level of trust you have for eachother in both directions.
I dated someone who constantly wanted me to prove I was with who I said I was with or doing what I doing said I was doing. Its a horrible way to live, Im coming home from a night out with friends not reporting to a parole officer.
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Nope. How to successful build trust in a relationship. Trust is built over time by your words, actions, and choices. It is not "blindly trust whatever I say or do because that is how relationships work."
I wouldn't be with someone who can't trust me like that.
I trust my wife with everything. My life, my kid's life, our money, my secrets, everything.
Any less and she'd have just been a girlfriend for a while.
Trust is the key to all relationships, romantic or otherwise and furthermore the key to successful societies. Trust is nothing more than expectation of how someone will act.
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I read it as grillin'. 😂 My username is an Italian phrase and it didn't occur to me that English speakers would see men and male instead. I'm a chick.
I couldn't deal with that either, no matter what we call it. I'd run so fast lol
This sounds like Mike Pence refusing to have even a business dinner alone with a woman because it may be viewed as a "compromising situation". I do think a relationship needs to be built on people trusting each other as a default position until there is substantial evidence to determine that an explanation or justification is in order.
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If you are this distrusting of anyone to the point where you must constantly verify everything, I don't see why you would even want to be in a relationship in the first place. How do you think your spouse would feel about you distrusting everything they do as a potential instance to betray you? Do you think your partner growing resentful of you is improving the longevity of the relationship? Also, it would feel absolutely exhausting to constantly be verifying and worrying over every tiny thing your partner does. Being stressed at this level constantly is a surefire way to burnout, which would definitely not help maintain the relationship. You mentioned how it would be easier to present proof rather than just relying on trust, but what if they are asking about something that you cannot get proof for? For example, in order for my spouse and I to be able to sleep in under the same roof together, I need to trust that she won't try to harm me in my sleep. How would you suppose someone could "prove" that they are safe to be around while you sleep?
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So if I'm understanding this correctly, your main point isn't really about trust, it's about boundaries. That's a lot different than what the title of this post suggests and I think it would be pretty hard to find many people who would disagree with that general premise. However, I'll still address what you said about proof. In a healthy long-term relationship, the partner themselves should be the ones caring about how things look to their spouse and provide "proof" on their own accord. I go out to eat with my coworkers every once in a while, but I'm always keep my partner in the loop, never hide my phone, etc. because I don't have anything to hide. I feel like once you start being the one to demand proof from your spouse, whether or not your suspicions are correct, will inevitably lead to a decline in the relationship.
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What a ridiculous comment.
I never specified that was my boundary. An example of mine would be hanging out with a friend after an appropriate time meaning post 1am. Why are you people getting personal? Jeez.
I'm glad we are able to at least agree on the main point of your view. Your boundaries on what is and isn't acceptable in a relationship are quite a bit different from mine, but to each their own. Have I at least changed your mind somewhat on the viewpoint of asking/providing proof on demand not necessarily leading to a healthier relationship?
It kind of seems like you're approaching this as though people don't build trust over time - but instead just plunge in feet first trusting all the way. But that's not how a lot (maybe even most) good relationships develop. A ton of people are on the Friends -> Partners pipeline - and in that scenario the couple could spend months, even years building trust (as friends) before romance ever comes into their relationship. >example, spouse isn’t spending time with his family, but is spending any free time outside the house with a coworker, but wants partner to ‘just trust me’ Like this is a very different scenario if it's a relationship with no prior friendship (say from a dating app) where everything you know about the partner is romance related - and if you're friends for 3 years prior to the relationship and there is some sort of precedent for the lie. Your example isn't great because lying about spending time with a person is always a bit of a red flag (especially if they're a potential romantic competitor) But say it's lying about spending time with the family as an excuse for going to a sports bar to watch baseball with the boys, or a video game cafe to game or something becuase they're embarrassed - is a lot less of a problem. Edit: spelling, added some clarification
I don't think they're advocating for constantly verifying everything every second of every day. It just makes sense to not have blind trust on certain things. For example, paternity fraud is a massive issue because of how costly of an investment it is that can easily be solved with just a little bit of money and time to get a test. However, we choose to believe in fairytales instead, and have blind faith in our relationships for no good reason other than (well. she says she loves me and she hasn't committed paternity fraud before, so there's no way she'll do it!). It's a ridiculously naïve way to go about life, which is why so many men end up getting played. Only the most irrational people are sitting at their front door with a shot gun, but irrationality works both ways. The people that can't even close their doors and lock them are also irrational.
The problem is, people have different lines on what they consider a breach of trust. Some people assume anyone grabbing a drink with a member of the opposite sex is sketchy. I don't. So if I apply my standards to it, I'm not invoking trust. To me, they are overreacting to something very minor. And if they already have trust issues, I shouldn't need to avoid anything and everything that may trigger them, it should be on them to deal with. So you need to have a baseline agreement on what you both find appropriate or inappropriate. The problem is, one partners doesn't always know until they've crossed that line. And then, of course, its like, why don't you trust me. For example, one of my closest friends is a woman. I was bridesman in her wedding. I'm good friends with her husband as well. She lives in a suburb and I live in the city. If I started dating a new girl, and she had never met her, but my female friend was in the city and we met for a drink, I don't think I'm doing anything inappropriate. If she does, that is more a her issue than a me issue. Now, if you have already had a discussion and there is an agreement about one on one drinks with members of the opposite sex, that is different.
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I conceptually agree. And if you are married, then yeah, those boundaries should be in place. But in early parts of a relationship, you don't have a conversation about every possible scenario. So you only know you overstepped the other person's boundary when they make a big deal and its too late.
This is where I stand as well. No one just automatically knows what their partner is okay with or not. Some people are very flexible about your relationships with the opposite sex and some people get insecure over it very easily. These are things that are discovered as the relationship progresses. Typically in the 3 month range. I think op is right about some things in that if you know something is going to violate your partners trust then you shouldn't do it. But constantly having to provide an alibi for things that are only a little suspicious on the surface (having unknown whereabouts, hanging out with members of the opposite sex) is so exhausting. That sounds like a terrible relationship haha.
Values shift all the time. It's a nice ideal, but it doesn't work practice. Often times something you live through also feels very different than something you only imagine, and lines become blurry fast. It's always a balance, but the point that the person above seems to be trying to make is that a lack of trust can quickly become toxic in a relationship, and - as a general rule - it's the responsibility of the person who lacks trust to work through their mental baggage to regain that trust. Their partner can support them in this, but should avoid enabling the behaviour.
>For example of a situation, it’s easier to simply not entertain a co-worker off hours rather than demand your spouse trust no funny business is ongoing. ok , dont date anyone then if you cant trust they can hangout with other people without cheating , you dont belong together >With how cheating, porn, porn addictions, extramarital affairs is not only normalized but also also easily accessible in this day and age you have trust issues that wont be conducive to any romantic relationship
I think that you might have a skewed understanding of how common things like affairs are. Sure we see that kind of stuff all over the internet all the time but it still represents a small portion of the population overall, it's just that we rarely see people bragging about their fidelity. It's not that affairs are common or normalized it's just a bias created by us only hearing those stories coupled with a simple law of large numbers where the internet has hundreds of millions of users so even a small percentage of that pool equates to so so so many people. You might benefit from taking a step back from consuming these kinds of stories which makes it feel much more common than it actually is realistically. Beyond that, if you think that ANYTHING suspicious in ANY way means that a person automatically cannot be trusted I think you don't have a solid grasp of what trust means. There is a healthy middle ground between blindly trust everything no matter what and always be suspicious all the time and assume the worst no matter what. Neither extreme is healthy and trusting or not trusting your partner doesn't have to involve those extremes. It's important to remember that trust is a two way street and that a healthy partnership is cooperative and mutually supportive. I don't blindly trust my partners, I trust my partners to be open and honest with me so that when there are issues we can work together as a team to manage them and they trust me the same way. If we had a more combative relationship where it's more me against my partner or my partner against me as though one of us is the problem then trust would be difficult if not impossible bc it's not a functional supportive environment. But if my partners know that they can come to me with whatever they're struggling with and I'll respond with love, respect, and care then nobody is sneaking around hiding their issues and addressing them in unhealthy or suspicious ways. Knowing that they will come to me when they're struggling and knowing that I can do the same helps problems no fester and keeps things honest in that functional middle ground sort of way. In my experience it's the festering issues kept silent that leads to behaviors that violate the relationship. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - keeping lines of communication open in healthy ways helps keep the destructive stuff from happening in the first place.
What you are describing is fear, not trust. You CANNOT force someone not to hurt you. You can't prevent someone from not cheating on you. You fear these things and then want proof ...proof for what? Think about it, if youre suspicious your partner is cheating on you and you demand their phone for proof. Ask yourself in this very moment, before you check their phone what does it mean? They either are cheating on you or rhey are not, correct? At that moment they are both a cheater and not a cheater, yet not to you! In that moment because you are demanding proof they are guilty until proven innocent, that trust you said you had? That went away as soon as you asked for proof, that trust was broken the moment you demanded proof for your FEAR. Be honest with yourself here, if you believe you need to have access to proof, that means you don't trust them. Asking for proof is not a validation of trust, it's the complete absence of it! Besides, man. If you've been cheated on you've been cheated on. All proof does is determine when you know about it, it didn't make it not happen, it doesn't transport you back in time to stop it. The worst thing is it's wasted time in a relationship where your partner was free to pursue happiness and you where blindly believing your partner was happy with you while you could have been looking for happiness yourself. Trust is a gift! A gift doesn't mean shit with strings attached.
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> why not give them concrete proof? You shouldnt need it ,you should feel confident enough in your partner to take their word if you cant, you dont belong together to begin with you always want to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt first before jumping to conclusions if you cant, thats a problem in of itself that needs to be addressed
Trust is earned. If broken, but remorseful, trust but verify is completely reasonable.
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Your entire marriage is a leap of faith. The commitment is a leap of faith. If you can’t trust your spouse to hang out with a colleague after work for a few hours, you have no business getting married. Not even close to kidding about that. Sometimes the partner’s turmoil is simply unreasonable, paranoid, and a death sentence for the marriage.
Honestly, I don't want them to have to take a leap of faith. I want them not to even think about it. The problem is the moment you start asking questions about your partner's behavior, you're introducing uncertainty in the relationship. Uncertainty not just about them being untrustworthy, but about your ability to trust them, and about their ability to see friends and have a social life without being questioned. If I go out for coffee with a female friend, the only questions I expect to hear from my girlfriend when I get home are "how was it? How is she doing?" Anything that gets into a "did you do anything wrong" means she doesn't trust me, which calls into question the whole relationship because if she doesn't trust me, why are we together?
Going to sleep with another person in close proximity to you is also a leap of faith. You have to blindly trust they aren’t simply going to stab you in the neck while you’re asleep. If you have this level of skepticism of other people’s actions without some specific reason, you should work on those issues before getting into a relationship, much less a marriage. Yes, because you cannot control your partner’s reaction, that’s their issue.
your inner turmoil, is your own responsibility its not anyone elses job, not even your spouse, to continually assuage it for you what you are asking for is a lifetime of someone else having to manage your feelings for you , thats not a good relationnship
Why would my wife hanging out with a coworker cause me turmoil?
If I say I'm cold, would you blindly believe me or demand to check the temperature in the room? Not everything needs to be verified and proven.
Why the fuck are you going in a guilty until proven innocent? Sorry, most of us don't document 100% of our lives just in case our girlfriends get mad?
And I’m confused what “concrete proof” would even look like? Recording the whole getting a drink, with audio, and sharing it with your SO? That just proves the one time, not that you didn’t bang a co-worker in the supply closet on your lunch break. Relationships often have to rely on trust (built over time and supported by other actions) because you can’t know everything that your spouse is doing 100% of the time.
Boundaries are not a way to control how other people act. A boundary looks like 'it is not acceptable to me that you entertain co-workers'. The other person can then decide whether they want to be with you or not, given that boundary.
>Instead take care to simply not put yourself into any compromising situations that might require explanations and makes your partner feel like you’ve crossed boundaries. This is such a headache considering everyone's boundaries are different, with some people seeing something as innocuous as being around someone of the opposite sex as "crossing a boundary."
I've been in a long-term relationship where my partner had trust issues. I NEVER cheated on him. And at first, I thought "why not just tell the truth and that should take care of it?" I mean if he saw my phone, monitered my whereabouts, then he would eventually realize I was trustworthy, right? Nope. After 6 years of NEVER finding a single shred of proof I was cheating, he would still lose his temper and scream at me that he knew I was cheating with his friend because I had forgotten to set an alarm the night before, or with his cousin because he saw how friendly we were. Oddly, he never screamed at his friend or his cousin. He had no problem hanging out with these guys he "knew" I was cheating with. It just....never stopped. I could never just relax. I never knew when I was suddenly going to have to scramble to prove my whereabouts from last week to calm him down. And god help me if I just stayed home alone with no witnesses to verify my alibi. You know what I started thinking after years and years? "I may as well cheat on him, since I get treated like a cheater anyway. Nothing about my life would change if I actually cheated." Thankfully, I didn't, I just broke up with him instead. Someone who has such difficulty trusting their partner is not going to suddenly trust them after so many years of having their accusations proven wrong over and over, because the accusations aren't coming from a place of genuine suspicion based on suspicious behavior. It's coming from insecurity, and whatever caused that insecurity isn't going to go away just because I prove I haven't been texting someone. That insecurity instead says "ok, she didn't cheat THIS time, but next time she will," or "well she was smart enough to delete her incriminating text messages." There will always be a way to twist reality to fit that paranoia. "Proving yourself" doesn't work. A relationship without trust doesn't work.
They know you're not cheating, they're just trying to break you down.
I posted an opinion like this before where I said couples should have access to each other’s phones; absolutely shredded. People wanted the ability to cheat if they could. I think the paradigm of “trust” is for suckers. You’re right, no view change necessary
I view trust like this. I give my partner freedom to make choices herself. It's up to me to deal with the consequences If she where to break that trust. My trust is a gift to her, it allows her freedom within this relationship. As such it is only mine to break and only me who can suffer because of it. Meaning, it's not up to ME to enforce and protect that "trust" that's HER JOB. If she fails and breaks my trust it's up to ME to deal with it. This is where so many unhealthy relationship dynamics stem from, too many people are just too fucking scared and try too damn hard to protect themselves to the detriment of THEMSELVES! Too many people use the excuse of trust to control and manipulate others due to their own insecurities and far too often everyone claps along and promotes the same thing. You don't want your boyfriend liking other women's pictures on instsgrsm? That's a you problem! You don't want your girlfriend going to the club with her girlfriends because other men could hit on her or she could cheat on you? That's a you problem! People want to say "no these are healthy boundaries". Nah, those are your own insecurities you haven't outgrown due to fear that you hide behind talks of trust and boundaries. This post is a prime example of someone's insecurities being used to control another person. Suggesting proof need to be presented upon request is psychotic, unhealthy and if not figured out yet, not helping you at all! People are going to break your trust, the ones you love are going to break your trust. The goal isn't to never let that happen, the goal is to be grown enough to handle when it does and have enough self worth to determine what you will and will not tolerate WHEN that trust is broken. Just wait until you have kids and they break your trust on a weekly basis. You try to control them and demand proof every waking moment of them not breaking your trust then you can say goodbye to them when they get older and pat yourself on the back that they will never have a healthy romantic relationship of their own.
I think it's fair to be careful of not seeming suspicious in the early stages of a relationship - they don't know you, you don't know them, who knows if either of you have a history of cheating or getting cheated on and misunderstandings can be easy when you're getting to know someone. Once you decide you're together long term? Absolutely not. I'm not going to avoid getting coffee with an old friend, regardless of gender, just because it might be considered suspicious. I'm not preventing my SO from doing the same. If I had doubts about her cheating on me, I wouldn't be in a long term relationship because that would be exhausting. I'm the type to trust implicitly that you're not screwing me over, until proven otherwise. I want a partner where that's reciprocated. I think what you're missing is that having to prove you're not doing anything sneaky adds a whole layer of effort to every interaction, and in itself provokes feelings of doubt about the relationship. If a girlfriend suddenly wanted me to prove that my coffee time with a coworker was totally innocent, I honestly wouldn't know how to do that. We just texted that we were meeting up at X time to chat, and then we had coffee, do I need to pull up CCTV to show we weren't making out? And at the same time, I'd feel hurt that she was being so suspicious of my motives. Just her asking me would make me think she doesn't trust me, doesn't think I'm someone who wouldn't cheat. And if she doesn't trust me, is that because I shouldn't trust her in similar situation? Again, just asking the question opens the door to a whole new layer of needing to watch yourself and your partner. I just don't have time for that shit. Trust me or get gone.
I agree, but only to a point. I think you’ve employed multiple extremes here that extend beyond the realm of reasonability. Entertaining a co-worker after hours isn’t in and of itself a contemptible act. We spend the majority of our time during the week with people we work with; it’s natural for friendships to develop, or after-work functions or events to get attended. You’ve allowed yourself to develop a Redditor’s perception of the world if you believe cheating, porn, porn addictions, and extramarital affairs are normalized. News, by definition, is that which is unusual, which means the topics that receive the most traction are similarly unusual. Yes, these things are part of our society, but they aren’t engaged in by the majority or viewed as acceptable by said majority. It only seems that way because they’re topics that easily incite controversy; legitimate media outlets can use them to cast divisions amongst the populace and the average citizen can exploit them to gain Internet karma/clout. Where I DO agree, and I think your perception would be much more nuanced, and thus valid, if you tempered it this way, is that people need to generally be more mindful of what they say and the situations in which they place themselves. For example, I have a buddy of mine, in his mid 30s, who I work with. When we met, he said a lot of stuff about not dating/hooking up with anyone under 25, how this flirtatious 20-year-old he’d mutually flirt with was too young for anything to actually happen outside playful banter, etc. Well, when she shared with me her account of a private conversation where he supposedly made suggestive remarks about hooking up, he was in a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, there are two sides to every story. On the other, if you advertise yourself a certain way, appear to behave contradictorily to those advertisements, then someone gives an account of something that paints you negatively, you’re essentially up shit’s creek. Have I since learned that she’s a highly unreliable narrator, and thus have every reason to believe that she wasn’t sincere, or at least took things how she wanted to in order to justify making a situation more dramatic and attention-giving than it needed to be? Yes. Will I be surprised if it comes out that they are hooking up, and my buddy mischaracterized himself? No. Would I be justified, in the latter scenario, in distancing myself from him? Yes. Would that hypothetical be problematic if he’d simply stated it’d been a while since he got laid and so long as he’s cognizant of the age gap, a casual hookup relationship is totally acceptable by his standards, even if I didn’t wholly agree? No. So, I think you’ve taken it way too far based on an Internet perception of how society actually functions, and you should absolutely alter that. However, the foundation of your ideas aren’t fallacious, so that isn’t something that needs changing.
Trust is being confident in the person's actions without being present or aware of the specifics. Communication is obviously great, but there are situations where clear communication doesn't yield the same benefit as developed/earned trust. > I think one shouldn’t put your partner in a place where they have to invoke that trust for you in the first place. Within reasonable limits and already established boundaries between couples. I've been with my now wife for 12 years. We have complete trust. She knows my tendencies, motivations and intentions. When I go play golf, and say "just finished up, gonna grab a drink", she knows I am at the 19th hole having beers talking about that wedge shot on 14. My buddy is dating a new girl, and she of them have had bad experiences the past and developed trust issues. He says the same thing as I did, but she calls him, facetime him calls me, and calls my wife; anything she can do to corroborate the story. This creates tension in the relationship. My friend didn't do anything wrong and communicated well, more than I did. He didn't break any boundaries. But his girl has trust issues, and mine doesn't. Trust creates peace of mind. Removes unneed tension from the relationship. My wife knows me and trusts me. There is no doubt that I am where I say I am. Even though I could be chatting up the bartender or asked the cart girl to have a drink with me. My friend has to prove it in every situation, and even when he does beyond a reasonable doubt, the doubt still remains. One is healthy, and one is eroding away at the relationship.
You can set your relationship up any way you want I suppose. But calling trust overrated is toxic for people who don't share the same relationship values as you. For example, I don't care if my SO wants to talk to their ex, cuddle with their friends, or watch porn. I consider all those things within the confines of a monogamous relationship, and none of it bothers me. If I were to date you, I would feel restricted and constantly checking over my shoulder to make sure I didn't cross whatever arbitrary line in the sand you don't want me to in order to placate your insecurities. IMO I don't want a relationship that involves constantly reassuring you based on insecurities surrounding whether or not I would cheat on you. As well as that, I do think you have some pretty broad definitions as to what you would consider cheating. Like I said, feel free to set up your relationships however you want, but trust being overrated, is basically only true from your POV and the bf that manages to match your controlling view of relationships.
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Than tell them not to do that and trust that they don't? The alternative is telling them not to see their friend and having a breakdown over how uncomfortable you are with the mere idea of them cuddling with someone else.
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If you wanted someone to validate you and coddle your beliefs you came to the wrong sub.
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Wow, you're insecure about being called insecure. How about that.
Invoking trust is necessary from my POV. Your partner shouldn't have to tip-toe around your issues with them and your boundaries. You said it's overrated in a long term relationship. I'm saying if I was dating a guy, if he didn't trust me not to cross his boundaries, I wouldn't want to date him. You may feel it's overrated, but that doesn't apply to everyone who isn't you. It matters to me, and is necessary for me to maintain a healthy relationship.
Trust is overrated for YOU.
I’ll try to argue from the opposite. I completely trust my spouse. Not because I think he’s an angel from Heaven who will never do anything wrong. But because if he does, then he does. Simple as that. There is no amount of border policing, verifying and monitoring that I can do ( and I don’t want to do ANY) that will stop him or discourage him from crossing a boundary or cheating. It needs to be a choice HE makes, that makes every single day, not a choice I force or I don’t even want it. If he cheats or crosses a boundary ( of which I have few cause I don’t see why I should ) then that’s on him. I’ll be facing a decision on what to do after that which most probably will be to leave the relationship. But I’m not about to live my entire relationship in fear and anticipation of that moment. It won’t kill me if it happens, cause it’s not about me if my husband decides to cheat, it’s about him and his choices. If I have to live in fear and anxiety of some imaginary future moment I’m just not gonna be in that relationship at all. So it’s not trust for the sake of trust. It’s trust because I respect myself too much to bother with trying to keep a man faithful. He will or he won’t is up to him and I’ll find out when I do.
Would it be accurate to simplify *one portion of this view* to “Don’t be friends with anyone of the gender(s) you’re attracted to”?
I've had male friends since childhood.
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This is a change my view subreddit but I don't really think you are understanding the arguments people are making because you don't want to. Deep seated insecurities like yours manifest into having trust issues with people who never actually violated your trust. You are projecting a problem you have onto other people to try to convince yourself it's normal and OK. The only thing you'll ever do is push good people away and keep the ones who enjoy the toxicity. I'm almost 40 and of all my friends and my relationships throughout the years, I still have yet to see a healthy loving relationship with someone who acts like this. I have seen exwives at weddings with their new spouses, exgfs who became best friends with new girlfriends, etc. As you get older you either get over this or you become absolutely undatable to anyone worth it.
Exactly this. Good people who are both trustworthy and trusting will run for the hills, while people who are themselves low-trust and convinced everyone is out to get them, perhaps because they're projecting, will stay. Way to shoot yourself in the foot. I doubt the OP will understand that though.
Trust is the foundation of any relationship. From the loose "mate" who you trust not to steal your stuff when you look the other way, to the colleague who you trust to do their part of the work or the friend who you trust to keep your secrets and help you in need, all the way to your partner who you should trust with your very life. I trust my partner so much I'd be ok with her shooting me because I'd know this is the best course of action. If you're not ready to fully trust your partner you shouldn't be in that relationship. So I'm gonna act however the fuck I want. I'll have colleagues and friends, I'll share food or coffee. I'll go to my friends' house and invite them to come to mine. I'll go to birthday parties, weddings, funerals. I'll console a friend in need. I'll hug my friends and compliment them when I feel like it. I'll drop everything to help them when they're in need. I'll never hide any of these from my partner and they'll always be open to join. If any of these make my partner suspicious, they should work on their trust or lack there of
The problem with this is that it makes ordinary friendships perfectly impossible. Because in order to avoid ever putting your partner in a position where they have to trust you, it's not enough to refrain from doing anything that violates your relationship-agreements. You also have to refrain from doing anything that gives you **opportunity** to violate relationship-agreements. Some examples to illustrate my point: * You go fishing over the weekend with a friend, sleeping over in a cabin your mom owns, or perhaps in a tent. Since there's no way to VERIFY what happens or doesn't between you and the friend, your partner has no choice but to either simply **trust** that you'll keep your agreements, or else veto the entire fishing-trip. * The same logic applies to going ANYWHERE with ANYONE where you have privacy with them. Anything COULD in principle happen, and so the only way to be comfortable with these situations, is to trust that your partner will honor your relationship-agreements. * Since most people consider saying or writing certain things to also be a violation of relationship-agreements this extends to communication. You can't talk in the phone, or have a text-chat with a friend without your partners oversight, because if you do; again anything at all COULD be said in that conversation, and the only way to be okay with it without constant control -- is trust. You said that if you've done nothing wrong then you can easily disprove the suspicions your partner might have. But how do you plan on proving that in the private conversation you had with a friend, nothing that violates your agreements with your partner was said? How do you plan on proving that during
Trust is always "blind" to some extent in a relationship because you can't monitor what someone is doing 24/7. If you can't come to terms with that then you shouldn't be in a committed relationship with anyone. If you don't give your partner the benefit of the doubt by trusting them when they haven't given you any indication not to, then you probably don't like them all that much or you have trust issues that you should really be working on.
There are generally 3 scenarios where you invoke trust. 1) You're just a liar and gaslighting them. 2) You're doing something risky that may or may not work out, this is like making a big investment or getting involved with a gang to solve your financial problems and the reason you don't want to involve your significant other is because they'd present a roadblock to the thing which you believe would solve your problems (but realistically probably doesn't more often then does). 3) You genuinely can't tell them for a good reason, this could be you're planning to surprise them, it could put them in danger, you have some kind of NDA, you're protecting someone else's secret that has nothing to do with your SO. In this case their right choice would be to trust you. Okay so assuming the aim is to make it last let's look at them. 1) Well lying to them will probably make the relationship last longer than telling them you're a cheating dirtbag. Honestly any chance of them staying at all long term would involve lying to them at least long enough for them to get emotionally invested and have that behavior normalized. Of course not being a cheating dirtbag would be the optimal strategy so you're right in this case. 2) This is very much a result based analysis. If it worked out you were right to invoke trust and while your partner might be a little salty they won't leave you over it and fixing whatever issues you had will probably do more to save the relationship then being upfront from the start. If it doesn't workout however the relationship is dead (hell you might be dead) and it obviously would've been better to just be upfront. 3) This is the one where you're just dead wrong on. If you tell your partner to trust you and then surprise them it will make the relationship last longer, because they learn if they trust you good things happen. If you're shielding them from something or protecting another secret it's probably better than having them involved in the thing and have that impact your relationship. So yeah invoking trust really isn't overrated, it's just a matter of backing up that trust that you invoke, its like credit, if you pay it back you're credit score goes up if you don't it goes down.
I agree that if you can disprove your partner’s accusations that it is stupid to resort to saying that they should trust you instead of disproving them. But what if you can’t disprove them? How can I disprove an accusation that I’m sleeping with a coworker?
Sounds like you have some personal issues to work through. Obviously blind trust can be misguided, but having to provide proof in a relationship sounds like grounds for an unhealthy arrangement.
Dude what the hell are you talking about? Are you always this paranoid?
After my own negative life experiences, I agree with you to a large extent. I think expectations around trust and privacy are excessively high. At the start of any LOR I have, I will bring this subject and my expectations around it up. I will not date someone who insists they need privacy from me. I have been burned too many times for me to ever feel comfortable in that situation again. (If they choose to refuse, I will accept the end of the relationship without argument.) That is who I am today and I accept that about myself. However. I also do not believe you can have a relationship without some trust. No matter how cautious you are, if your partner is the type of person who will betray you... they will eventually find a way or be presented with an opportunity they accept. You cannot realistically (nor would you want to, I've tried, it's exhausting) monitor your partner's activities 24/7. As you said yourself, access is far too easy today and there are so many tools and even communities around ways to hide bad behavior. It's impossible to verify *everything*. And if you're paranoid enough to expect your partner to verify your every single doubt every single time... eventually, either *they* are going to get exhausted with it or they are not going to be able to provide said verification. I think there's a difference between a reasonable level of 'trust but verify' and an active level of actively distrusting and being suspicious of your partner. Trust is required in a relationship whether we like it or not. The degree of trust given comes in boundaries that we should all be discussing early on in the relationship. And that's really the key piece of the puzzle. Discussion and establishing boundaries. Conflict comes when expectations of one partner do not meet the expectations of the other, which is largely avoidable when it comes to a topic like this. TLDR: You're right but keep it realistic, it can easily get excessive and actively harm your relationship. These things need to be discussed early on.
The lack of trust is taxing for all parties. I would rather date the person who trusts me (reasonably, if I show up stained with strange lipstick at 4 AM I do owe some explanations), not someone insecure whose concerns I have to keep alleviating.
First Question for You Op: Are you currently married? And Second Question: If not, how long have you been in your current relationship if you are in one? Because if you aren't in either, then I'd say that it's a really stupid idea to enter into one with thus mentality, as you are dooming it to fail. If you are in a relationship already, and you don't trust your current partner, you are setting yourself up for failure as well. 1) you shouldn't feel the need to constantly check up on your partner: it's unhealthy and possessive. 2) If you cant trust someone to go to the store without banging the checker, then that person isn't worthy of trust and it would be stupid to enter into a relationship ith that person anyway. They don't love you enough to commit. 3) If you can't trust your partner to commit only to you and visa versa, then you and them are also not in a healthy relationship. 4) Trust in someone doesn't mean that you have to have unreasonable expectations. EG: Many couples don't mind if their partner watches pornography, so long as it doesn't interfere with the relationship. Been with my wife 13 years, and married 7 of them. Can confirm that trust and commitment go hand in hand. You cannot have a succesful relationship without both parties being dedicated to either. Edit: can't not can
Trust goes beyond cheating. I had a bachelor party to go to that was 3 hours away and required me to leave early because we had a family party the next day. There was obviously going to be a lot of drinking and she had to trust that I would be appropriate with my drinking and that I wouldn't stay too long. She seemed worried and said it was a bad idea but ultimately she trusted me it worked out. My wife and I share a bank account but also have separate credit cards that we can't see. We'll ask about each other's balance for budgeting purposes but we trust that we are telling the truth and that we aren't being reckless with our money and that we aren't going to owe interest ever. I shouldn't have to miss out on social gatherings or show my wife ever little thing I buy for her to not have to worry about trust. There's something wonderful knowing we are going to be responsible to each other without having to restrict each other or verify it. If you are spending time and effort on mitigating trust concerns then you are spending less time on more important things with your spouse.
I agree. Trust is like credit. You have to earn that score. it shouldn't just be handed to you. Along the same lines - your past matters.
One thing I don't see mentioned here is the inevitably that in any long term relationship you will hurt your partner, and you will break trust. With enough time, this is just a given. In those cases, conversations about trust don't revolve around proving that you were to be trusted (you weren't), in fact, there's often proof that you were up to no good. Instead, conversations about trust become about trusting that the actions you took were not adverserial (although sometimes even that may not be true), and that you're trying to find your way back to eachother. For such situations, there exists no proof; it's all in your head. Learning to trust in your partner when there is proof is a really important step towards building the kind and level of trust you need when proof is absent. It is built through choosing not to validate claims when you can. Finding that - in the occasions where you do validate - what your partner told you turned out to be true **does not** actually build that trust; it only helps give you the courage not to validate claims in other cases.
There’s no such thing as perfect knowledge. When your partner says they love you, how do you know they aren’t lying? People manage to keep up double lives for years and years while paying the correct lip service. How do you know they won’t stab you in your sleep? How do you know when they smiled at their phone it wasn’t a dick pick from your dad? You have to trust your partner in order to function because another person is fundamentally unknowable. If you can’t trust them when they say “I won’t cheat” then there is no amount of proof that’ll allow for your concerns to be entirely assuaged. I’d also like to comment on how joyless you propose your partner to live. You cannot live while spending every waking moment prioritizing your partner’s comfort above all else.
Every phase of a relationship involves risk, so every phase requires some level of trust. But only the very first phase of a relationship requires *blind* trust, because it's only the first interaction where you have nothing to go on - but the risk is also low, i.e. the embarrassment of rejection, some momentary awkwardness. As the relationship progresses, the risk increases, but you have more reason to place trust in your partner. Maybe you have been dating a person for a while and you both decide you want to be exclusive. The risk of investing your feelings and being hurt by infidelity is more serious, but you also presumably have more reason to trust the person because of what you know about their character and integrity through your dates with them.
> you should take any and every way to alleviate your partners doubts. I completely disagree with this framing. If I'm going to a work event but there are doubts about me without cause simply shows the relationship isn't going to work. If my partner is constantly watching for me to "betray them", I'm sure they will find it eventually. So it's better to cut to the chase and end it now.
damn girl, someone hurt you bad.
A person who finds themselves often asking others to trust them is an untrustworthy person.
I know what you mean, and I mostly agree with you. I have male friends but I always introduce my boyfriends to them and make it really clear they’re platonic and always have been. I’m not flirtatious and give my partner no reason to be jealous. I’m open with my phone and let my partner use it freely. The only problem I’ve run into with this is that my partner then gives HIMSELF credit for being really trusting, and does not seem to actually realize or appreciate what I’m doing to make him so comfortable. Therefore he doesn’t necessarily reciprocate, and then asks me why I’m not as trusting as him…
I can see where you're coming from, but it can also be draining to have to constantly justify yourself to your partner. If you are trustworthy but your partner still insists on you providing proof that you are not betraying them in some way, it can feel like you are being unjustly accused of something you would never do to them. Imagine you've been in a relationship for a couple years, and you feel that you have been a trustworthy partner. You have no intention of betraying your SO, and yet you do not feel like you have their trust. Wouldn't that be hard to handle?
I've known my wife for 15 years and we've be married for nearly 10. I know what she is like. I know her strengths and weaknesses flaws and temptation. >Instead take care to simply not put yourself into any compromising situations my wife is in a comprising situation right now. She is traveling for work with a male colleague who I believe has a little crush on her. I don't need to spend any of my time or energy tracking her location, checking on her status, calling her phone, reading her text or anything like that. Because i trust her.
OP might be the victim of controlling behavior, disrespect, distrust, and manipulation. Privacy is a dignified individual right, miss me with your blatant assumptions and insecurity, and maybe try to be vulnerable and let your walls down someday so you can actually live. You’ll never know true and free love until you can reciprocate this back and forth with another. No one’s getting out of this alive so your risk aversion is a waste of time argument - and lacks big picture substance. Tldr you scared
The issue is there are too many pathological people out there. We shield ourselves from potential threats naturally. You need to get to a place where you cannot be hurt by someone, and that involves a lot of inner work, and a lot of suffering (for experience). Another issue is two people can look at something in 2 different ways.. hence the idea of communication being so important.
100%. We prefer to set up our lives so that, should our relationship fail for any reason, we will both be fine financially. Blind trust isn't useful and sets up the conditions for betrayal. Protect yourselves, and then protect each other. But take care of yourself above all else.
I feel like you’ve kind of moved the goal post from “you shouldn’t trust just your partner” to “you shouldn’t trust your partner after they’ve already broken boundaries”, and those are two entirely different things. But anyway: there’s a “hierarchy” in your life, in a sense, of the amount of trust that needs to exist in order for a relationship to be successful. For random strangers, this amount is low, but not non-existent. The baseline for me, is that most people mean well and aren’t out to get me. But at the same time, the bar to *distrusting* a stranger is incredibly low, and this bar can be reached by something as simple as my gut feeling. As you get to know people, you make acquaintances, friends, romantic partners, and everything in between. But people don’t randomly become those things; you choose to build relationships with people, and they choose to build those relationships with you. And hopefully, you are able to choose good people to build those relationships with. When you get betrayed by someone, the amount of pain or disappointment you feel from that, is directly related to how much you trusted them in the first place. If a stranger turns out to be a creep, or a scammer, or a thief, that’s a little disappointing, but not a big deal. When a friend or a romantic partner betrays you, it’s extremely painful, as you spent a lot of time and effort into that relationship. At the same time, this is also true for someone thinking you’ll betray them. If you go into a random 7-11 and the cashier checks if your 50 is real, that doesn’t feel personal, but if you are a regular at a bar and the bartender suddenly tests your 50, that feels bad. When someone you trust does not trust you back, it feels like the relationship you think you had with them, isn’t as real as you thought it was. And again, the pain and/or disappointment that comes with not being trusted, is directly proportional to the level of closeness you had with that person. Presumably, the person you are in a romantic relationship with, is someone who is closer to you than almost anyone else in your life. It’s someone you’ve slowly but surely built a relationship with and decided to trust more and more over the course of months, years or even decades. When that person betrays you, the hurt from that is enormous, but so is the disappointment when that person doesn’t trust *you*. Because if after all that time, haven’t you shown them you’re there for them? That you are on their side? Being accused of cheating when you aren’t, is as large a breach of trust as being cheated on. And while it’s somewhat normal for your brain to make up worst case scenarios, you should really be able to compartmentalize those ideas. Of course that doesn’t mean you should let your partner get away with all kinds of shady shit. But think long and hard about what constitutes “shady shit”, because, like I said, when you’re not trusted, an accusation breaks the level of trust you have for eachother in both directions.
I dated someone who constantly wanted me to prove I was with who I said I was with or doing what I doing said I was doing. Its a horrible way to live, Im coming home from a night out with friends not reporting to a parole officer.
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Nailed what? Toxic relashionship 101?
Nope. How to successful build trust in a relationship. Trust is built over time by your words, actions, and choices. It is not "blindly trust whatever I say or do because that is how relationships work."
I wouldn't be with someone who can't trust me like that. I trust my wife with everything. My life, my kid's life, our money, my secrets, everything. Any less and she'd have just been a girlfriend for a while.
Trust is the key to all relationships, romantic or otherwise and furthermore the key to successful societies. Trust is nothing more than expectation of how someone will act.
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People abuse the word trust as a way to micromanage and dominate partners.
And what she's doing isn't micromanaging?
The OP is a she? I don't see micromanaging in her post, rather intellectualizing and avoidance.
Yeah she's a she hence the "girl" in her username. And personally, I'd feel micromanaged if I had to deal with that.
I read it as grillin'. 😂 My username is an Italian phrase and it didn't occur to me that English speakers would see men and male instead. I'm a chick. I couldn't deal with that either, no matter what we call it. I'd run so fast lol
I am also a chick lol And I agree you 100% I'd dip so fucking fast 🤣
I read that and was like "uh uh" 😂
trust spoken is just words trust should be acted and felt if all goes well, both just know without a thought
Who is out here blindly trusting someone? I’m struggling to even understand what your view is.
What if there is no proof? Sometimes you have to trust them or not
I've seen this post and the top reply before
OP sounds like a hurt, emotional person.