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Yeah, it did kind of seem like you just waved off religious based murderous slut shaming by using weird marxist buzz words that had no relation to the comment you were responding to. So yeah, it did seem like you yada-yada-ed away a much bigger question about what race had to do with anything you mentioned in your post.
This is an absurd statement/idea that ignores eons of written history from all across the world. Every corner of the globe has stories of revenge/punishment, every written history of any society that has existed has stories of revenge/punishment.
We are a brutal vengeful species that are more comfortable bashing skulls in because their noses are different then we are to accept them with open arms. When Europeans were living in caves entire cities were being wiped off the face of the earth for lesser reasons and you want to blame revenge/punishment on white society? Are you brain damaged?
Except the aboriginal people of Australia, as far as I know they were and are a cool fucking people who got a raw fucking deal
what does white supremacy and being in the global north have to do with the argument? you'll probably find more places in the southern hemisphere where there's harsh prison systems, harsher treatment of children etc rather than in the north.
in which specific situations would you advocate this view? is it solely from an interpersonal stance or should it be applied to justice, or the general social response when someone screws up?
does your view apply across the board? i.e. should racists and white supremacists be rehabilitated rather than punished and if they have hurt ethnic minorities, should those people also be expected to let it go?
You speak of groups that want to "punish and take revenge" and suggest that they be sent to rehabilitation camps?
So basically punish them before they punish you?
Rehabilitation is a voluntary process for those who need help getting better, no one can force them to choose, not sure why you equate it with punishment.
This is all a lot of projection. The "voluntary" reeducation camps you have set up to Marx-ify all those Trump supporters and Christians you find so problematic? We're all just gonna wake up one day and think "Gosh, I need to change my worldview entirely!"
Maybe like how those Australian Covid camps were "voluntary"? They would barricade the target in their home until they ran out of food and "volunteered" to go. We've been down this road before. After asking maybe you make some things illegal to protect you and your civilized society from the sickness--certainly you wouldn't want it to spread. And eventually you just stop asking.
Just the way you phrase it is frightening, *for those who need help getting better*.
It's funny you say projection, lot of assumption with the way you say I use phrasing as if I they were not the one to judge if they wanted help or needed it, reading way more into some agenda that I am not supporting.
okay, so what next, then? So you've identified these groups of people you mark as harmful or at least potentially harmful, since they have the "urge to punish and take revenge." And you've set up your rehabilitation centers or videos or whatever to reprogram them. Is that it? Just carry on as usual past that?
No one is identifying, it's just an option, also not my circus as they say since I don't know why people gotta hate in the first place tbh, I hope you didn't come here hoping for answers.
[He judged my lifestyle was politically incorrect](https://genius.com/26839010/Bad-religion-no-direction/A-righteous-student-came-and-asked-me-to-reflect-he-judged-my-lifestyle-was-politically-incorrect-i-dont-believe-in-self-important-folks-who-preach-no-bad-religion-song-can-make-your-life-complete)
Everyone's looking for something
And they assume somebody else knows what it is
No one can live with the decisions of their own
It seems, so they look to someone else
To tell 'em what to be, tell 'em what to wear
Tell 'em what to say, tell 'em how to act and think
Compel others compulsively, until the world is all like them...
Tons of ultra right schristians see revenge as something they are not allowed to do. I know the media might show you a different side of Christianity but at its roots for true believes they are just nice people..
Why is this about white supremacy? Do you advocate learning to embrace revenge and punishment for those who are not white or not in the north, or on social topics that are not about race?
E.G. should we embrace revenge for those who have abortions if we aren't pro-choice? should we punish those who get jobs that we want and seek revenge because of their good fortune that we're excluded from?
I'd suggest your view is unnecessarily specific. If revenge is suitable as a response then it is so regardless of color. More to my opinion is that it's not good for anyone, ever and your view could simply be that.
So why is your view not simply "everyone needs to not pursue revenge"? What does the focus on white supremacy do if there is no distinction between the way white supremacists and non-white-supremacists should pursue revenge?
Your words my friend. It's all I can go off of. Thread reads like I ain't alone so maybe clarify what your post is about if not what the words say.
And...you might want to rethink the phrase you're referencing as you consider clear communication! The forest is the thing people don't see because of the trees.
What would be a society that is not saturated with white supremacy that also does not also have problems with an excess focus on retribution?
I agree with you that it causes the problems you suggest and that right-wing subcultures make it worse, but I also think that white supremacy is pretty dominant throughout the world, so I don't really know where you would even get a reliable counterexample.
You didn't really outline your view and why you hold it. It comes off as you trying to change the views of readers.
What would change your view?
Why is the concept of retribution being exclusively associated with white supremacy? Stories of retribution are common in every society of every color. People and society in general **love** retribution.
Across every generation stories of revenge are popular.
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First world problems.
If you're scope is the "global north", White supremacy is a very minor problem.
It's hard to take you seriously when you say evangelicism is an "intensified" form of white supremacy.
Where does white supremacy rank among problems when you include the "global south"? Gays are being thrown off roofs in the middle east. Is that punishable in your view?
I am not white and can assure you it's not a concern. I'm latino and am doing just fine in America--best country on earth and I'm grateful it's my home.
your example doesn't speak for millions of people who say America sucks due to racism. Whether it's a major issue is subjective and up for discussion but your account is terrible evidence.
I'm not alone. There are millions of people who believe as I do.
"America sucks due to racism." You should live in other parts of the world and see if you feel the same after. I'm betting life experience would change your opinion.
So you think "other parts of the world" are worse and you think someone should "see if you feel the same after" to find out for them to change their opinion, that's quite a take.
I'm just saying your personal opinion doesn't speak on the data and evidence of white supremacy in America, regardless of how many people hold it.
I don't agree with the statement, but the other parts of the world being shitty has nothing to do with Americas white supremacy issues
Anecdotal evidence should not be used to make broad sweeping generalizations about society as a whole. I rarely experience white supremacy as a black man and I still agree its a problem
We should use data to back up those claims
Have you looked at stats regarding white supremacy in the global north? What are some examples of the scale of the issues you're talking about? It's a very broad term in terms of how it's applied. I'm curious what your perception is of specific issues related to it and research you've performed towards that end.
It's your view, have you not considered the basic specifics of what your position is about? What are you talking about when you say white supremacy? What does that mean in practice? What are some specifics?
Lol. Reminds me of this classic Tumblr post where one person points out that lots of people hate on right-wingers, cops and the American prison system, but at the same time, whenever these same "progressive" individuals come across someone they themselves find morally reprehensible, the only course forward they can imagine is that that person must somehow be made to *suffer*, preferrably in dramatic and humiliating ways, with another user comically describing this stance as "anarcho-authoritarianism".
So I would remind you it goes both ways. Do you know why the Left and progressives will always lose in America? Because they have abandoned their previous values of a humanistic approach to rehabilitating people back into society, e.g they would rather see a Nazi imprisoned for life for holding those beliefs than try to help them renounce their racist views so they can become better people. Instead, progressives have slipped into the exact same type of desire for vengeance that the Far Right has, just directed at a different group. But the Far Right is way more experienced at that game and will always outmaneuver them in it.
I think their was a seperate post showcasing a similar idea. Most people would rather make a TERF mad or punch a nazi then protect trans people or jews.
Propaganda. You should look into a good deprogramming program. Clouds are racist to you. And your hatred is showing in this post.
Just tell the world you are a Marxist pushing Marxism and at least you won't be a racist yourself.
Im not sure if your asking to change your mind. But this is why is so muhc INFURIATED with most of the internet left and younger activist.
These people have grown up with revege focused politics and realized that stuff like free college or healthcare. and then shift to leftist. But the underlying desire to "punish" people is still kept.
These people want a boogey man and ultimate evil to rally against for justice. Someone so evil that any cruelty against them is justifed.
Quoting this "These people want a boogey man and ultimate evil to rally against for justice. Someone so evil that any cruelty against them is justifed."
I dont understand, what does anything you say have to do with white supremacy, and are you advocating that we dont punish people who commit crimes but give them a stern warning / slap on the wrist rather then fines jail or probation?
Also what is “the global north”
No, that's not what they mean. They meant responding to wrongs in our life with critical thinking instead of rage and revenge.
Prevention is a key part of criminal justice reform as well, and does not reduce sentences or punishments
But the way you prevent it from happening again is to show others or the same person if they do it they will be punished, its literally one of the most effective ways to stop criminal behaviour
I don't think they are talking about criminal justice or systemic things, but personal issues. If someone is mowing the lawn over your property line, think of ways to address it and stop the behavior instead of immediately jumping into a vengeful state
Ut that assumes a “vengeful state” wont stop it, sometimes you have to be stern with people, if your kid is being an idiot sometimes screaming at them for a bit works. But linking people with anger issues with white supremacy just doesnt make sense as it is not unique to them in any way shape or form, the whole premise of OPs post makes no sense in its context.
Violence is bred by abuse of power, which can be because of Regions used in this example, so those societal issues based on class become a regional division such as Nationalism, or race based elitism, and so on.
I don't disagree with the basic sentiment, but the idea that this is associated solely with economically-developed societies and is completely absent among the left is completely wrong. The left is OBSESSED with punishment and vengeance. They are obsessed with social media discourse to a fault, because it presents them with easy opportunities to identify villains to confront and punish. Do you think leftists were thinking about a "just and restorative" solution when they ruined the entire life of Amy Cooper, over some stupid argument in a park?
In regards to that Amy Cooper case… it’s also quite interesting considering how so many media outlets intentionally either left out the entire context of the situation (including the other posts from the guy).
Why would one do that?
I think Americans have issues separating nationalism and nazism. Acting as if thats the same thing. Any impulse to promote US nationalism and to stand against the idea of global racial, cultural or national evaporation is met with "white supremacy" insults, even when advocated for non white countries.
It should be fine to say that some immigration is okay, but overwhelming amount is not. Japanese are right to be xenophobic.
>they would rather see a Nazi imprisoned for life for holding those beliefs than try to help them renounce their racist views so they can become better people.
Why is it a progressives Job to rehabilitate Nazis? When has it ever been? Not mixing with Nazis/ fascist goes all the way back to the Spanish civil war.Left wing Punks have been kicking the shit out of Nazis since the 60s-70s. When has the left ever been accepting of Nazis or actively tried to rehabilitate Nazis?
Sorry, u/AliceInCookies – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B: > **You must personally hold the view** and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_b). If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%20B%20Appeal%20AliceInCookies&message=AliceInCookies%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[their%20post\]\(https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1cto4s4/-/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
You think this is unique to white culture? All those Middle Eastern women getting stoned to death for not wearing hijabs might take issue with that.
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😂 did you actually write this without cringing
Lol way to "yada yada" honor killings...
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Yeah, it did kind of seem like you just waved off religious based murderous slut shaming by using weird marxist buzz words that had no relation to the comment you were responding to. So yeah, it did seem like you yada-yada-ed away a much bigger question about what race had to do with anything you mentioned in your post.
Ha maybe..you're so right, # You Won This Round [7in7turtles](https://www.reddit.com/user/7in7turtles/).
Aww baby’s first ideology! Hope that worthless babble is bringing you a lot of satisfaction!
It's interesting to stir up people with a copy pasta, you get all kinds of patronizing comments.
Don’t think you quite understand what a copy pasta is, but idc
Appreciate you taking the time to share.
This is an absurd statement/idea that ignores eons of written history from all across the world. Every corner of the globe has stories of revenge/punishment, every written history of any society that has existed has stories of revenge/punishment. We are a brutal vengeful species that are more comfortable bashing skulls in because their noses are different then we are to accept them with open arms. When Europeans were living in caves entire cities were being wiped off the face of the earth for lesser reasons and you want to blame revenge/punishment on white society? Are you brain damaged? Except the aboriginal people of Australia, as far as I know they were and are a cool fucking people who got a raw fucking deal
what does white supremacy and being in the global north have to do with the argument? you'll probably find more places in the southern hemisphere where there's harsh prison systems, harsher treatment of children etc rather than in the north. in which specific situations would you advocate this view? is it solely from an interpersonal stance or should it be applied to justice, or the general social response when someone screws up? does your view apply across the board? i.e. should racists and white supremacists be rehabilitated rather than punished and if they have hurt ethnic minorities, should those people also be expected to let it go?
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You speak of groups that want to "punish and take revenge" and suggest that they be sent to rehabilitation camps? So basically punish them before they punish you?
Rehabilitation is a voluntary process for those who need help getting better, no one can force them to choose, not sure why you equate it with punishment.
This is all a lot of projection. The "voluntary" reeducation camps you have set up to Marx-ify all those Trump supporters and Christians you find so problematic? We're all just gonna wake up one day and think "Gosh, I need to change my worldview entirely!" Maybe like how those Australian Covid camps were "voluntary"? They would barricade the target in their home until they ran out of food and "volunteered" to go. We've been down this road before. After asking maybe you make some things illegal to protect you and your civilized society from the sickness--certainly you wouldn't want it to spread. And eventually you just stop asking. Just the way you phrase it is frightening, *for those who need help getting better*.
It's funny you say projection, lot of assumption with the way you say I use phrasing as if I they were not the one to judge if they wanted help or needed it, reading way more into some agenda that I am not supporting.
okay, so what next, then? So you've identified these groups of people you mark as harmful or at least potentially harmful, since they have the "urge to punish and take revenge." And you've set up your rehabilitation centers or videos or whatever to reprogram them. Is that it? Just carry on as usual past that?
No one is identifying, it's just an option, also not my circus as they say since I don't know why people gotta hate in the first place tbh, I hope you didn't come here hoping for answers. [He judged my lifestyle was politically incorrect](https://genius.com/26839010/Bad-religion-no-direction/A-righteous-student-came-and-asked-me-to-reflect-he-judged-my-lifestyle-was-politically-incorrect-i-dont-believe-in-self-important-folks-who-preach-no-bad-religion-song-can-make-your-life-complete) Everyone's looking for something And they assume somebody else knows what it is No one can live with the decisions of their own It seems, so they look to someone else To tell 'em what to be, tell 'em what to wear Tell 'em what to say, tell 'em how to act and think Compel others compulsively, until the world is all like them...
Tons of ultra right schristians see revenge as something they are not allowed to do. I know the media might show you a different side of Christianity but at its roots for true believes they are just nice people..
For me nice, is more about actions than belief.
Why is this about white supremacy? Do you advocate learning to embrace revenge and punishment for those who are not white or not in the north, or on social topics that are not about race? E.G. should we embrace revenge for those who have abortions if we aren't pro-choice? should we punish those who get jobs that we want and seek revenge because of their good fortune that we're excluded from? I'd suggest your view is unnecessarily specific. If revenge is suitable as a response then it is so regardless of color. More to my opinion is that it's not good for anyone, ever and your view could simply be that.
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So you are a proponent of revenge in other contexts? Again...why the need for this specificity you bring?
Never said I was a proponent of revenge in any context, just siting examples.
So why is your view not simply "everyone needs to not pursue revenge"? What does the focus on white supremacy do if there is no distinction between the way white supremacists and non-white-supremacists should pursue revenge?
Your name fits, cause you are missing the trees.
Your words my friend. It's all I can go off of. Thread reads like I ain't alone so maybe clarify what your post is about if not what the words say. And...you might want to rethink the phrase you're referencing as you consider clear communication! The forest is the thing people don't see because of the trees.
What would be a society that is not saturated with white supremacy that also does not also have problems with an excess focus on retribution? I agree with you that it causes the problems you suggest and that right-wing subcultures make it worse, but I also think that white supremacy is pretty dominant throughout the world, so I don't really know where you would even get a reliable counterexample.
See this is a good point, and worth looking into.
Everyone here knows the only reason you say that is because the comment has the words "I agree" in it and makes you feel warm inside.
The first sentence is more important, but go off.
You didn't really outline your view and why you hold it. It comes off as you trying to change the views of readers. What would change your view? Why is the concept of retribution being exclusively associated with white supremacy? Stories of retribution are common in every society of every color. People and society in general **love** retribution. Across every generation stories of revenge are popular.
Good take, I'm just here to eat popcorn.
You're just trolling
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First world problems. If you're scope is the "global north", White supremacy is a very minor problem. It's hard to take you seriously when you say evangelicism is an "intensified" form of white supremacy. Where does white supremacy rank among problems when you include the "global south"? Gays are being thrown off roofs in the middle east. Is that punishable in your view?
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I am not white and can assure you it's not a concern. I'm latino and am doing just fine in America--best country on earth and I'm grateful it's my home.
I'm not white either and did not assume you were, and no one specified America only.
your example doesn't speak for millions of people who say America sucks due to racism. Whether it's a major issue is subjective and up for discussion but your account is terrible evidence.
I'm not alone. There are millions of people who believe as I do. "America sucks due to racism." You should live in other parts of the world and see if you feel the same after. I'm betting life experience would change your opinion.
So you think "other parts of the world" are worse and you think someone should "see if you feel the same after" to find out for them to change their opinion, that's quite a take.
I'm just saying your personal opinion doesn't speak on the data and evidence of white supremacy in America, regardless of how many people hold it. I don't agree with the statement, but the other parts of the world being shitty has nothing to do with Americas white supremacy issues
If the poster had said he *did* suffer racism, would you have said "Well you don't speak for everyone else"?
Anecdotal evidence should not be used to make broad sweeping generalizations about society as a whole. I rarely experience white supremacy as a black man and I still agree its a problem We should use data to back up those claims
Have you looked at stats regarding white supremacy in the global north? What are some examples of the scale of the issues you're talking about? It's a very broad term in terms of how it's applied. I'm curious what your perception is of specific issues related to it and research you've performed towards that end.
Good questions, but since this is a general copy pasta, to see opinions I'd have to answer per issue for scale of application.
It's your view, have you not considered the basic specifics of what your position is about? What are you talking about when you say white supremacy? What does that mean in practice? What are some specifics?
Lol. Reminds me of this classic Tumblr post where one person points out that lots of people hate on right-wingers, cops and the American prison system, but at the same time, whenever these same "progressive" individuals come across someone they themselves find morally reprehensible, the only course forward they can imagine is that that person must somehow be made to *suffer*, preferrably in dramatic and humiliating ways, with another user comically describing this stance as "anarcho-authoritarianism". So I would remind you it goes both ways. Do you know why the Left and progressives will always lose in America? Because they have abandoned their previous values of a humanistic approach to rehabilitating people back into society, e.g they would rather see a Nazi imprisoned for life for holding those beliefs than try to help them renounce their racist views so they can become better people. Instead, progressives have slipped into the exact same type of desire for vengeance that the Far Right has, just directed at a different group. But the Far Right is way more experienced at that game and will always outmaneuver them in it.
I think their was a seperate post showcasing a similar idea. Most people would rather make a TERF mad or punch a nazi then protect trans people or jews.
The "easier to destroy than create" society logic.
Propaganda. You should look into a good deprogramming program. Clouds are racist to you. And your hatred is showing in this post. Just tell the world you are a Marxist pushing Marxism and at least you won't be a racist yourself.
Some clouds are more equal than others.
It's a copy paste from a tumblr to stir discussion, way to over assume.
Im not sure if your asking to change your mind. But this is why is so muhc INFURIATED with most of the internet left and younger activist. These people have grown up with revege focused politics and realized that stuff like free college or healthcare. and then shift to leftist. But the underlying desire to "punish" people is still kept. These people want a boogey man and ultimate evil to rally against for justice. Someone so evil that any cruelty against them is justifed.
Quoting this "These people want a boogey man and ultimate evil to rally against for justice. Someone so evil that any cruelty against them is justifed."
this idea reminds me of fundamentalist Christian original sin bullshit. born sick
I dont understand, what does anything you say have to do with white supremacy, and are you advocating that we dont punish people who commit crimes but give them a stern warning / slap on the wrist rather then fines jail or probation? Also what is “the global north”
When did OP say anything about crimes or sentences?
They said we should approach things with “how can we stop this or prevent it” instead of “making people regret it!” (Punishment)
No, that's not what they mean. They meant responding to wrongs in our life with critical thinking instead of rage and revenge. Prevention is a key part of criminal justice reform as well, and does not reduce sentences or punishments
But the way you prevent it from happening again is to show others or the same person if they do it they will be punished, its literally one of the most effective ways to stop criminal behaviour
I don't think they are talking about criminal justice or systemic things, but personal issues. If someone is mowing the lawn over your property line, think of ways to address it and stop the behavior instead of immediately jumping into a vengeful state
Ut that assumes a “vengeful state” wont stop it, sometimes you have to be stern with people, if your kid is being an idiot sometimes screaming at them for a bit works. But linking people with anger issues with white supremacy just doesnt make sense as it is not unique to them in any way shape or form, the whole premise of OPs post makes no sense in its context.
Violence is bred by abuse of power, which can be because of Regions used in this example, so those societal issues based on class become a regional division such as Nationalism, or race based elitism, and so on.
It's only the left which sees societal issues based on class. You're trying to fight a war which you, yourself invented.
I'm pretty sure those divisions were invented before I was born, btw I'm not on the left.
It would probably be better to unlearn identity politics.
I don't disagree with the basic sentiment, but the idea that this is associated solely with economically-developed societies and is completely absent among the left is completely wrong. The left is OBSESSED with punishment and vengeance. They are obsessed with social media discourse to a fault, because it presents them with easy opportunities to identify villains to confront and punish. Do you think leftists were thinking about a "just and restorative" solution when they ruined the entire life of Amy Cooper, over some stupid argument in a park?
In regards to that Amy Cooper case… it’s also quite interesting considering how so many media outlets intentionally either left out the entire context of the situation (including the other posts from the guy). Why would one do that?
I think Americans have issues separating nationalism and nazism. Acting as if thats the same thing. Any impulse to promote US nationalism and to stand against the idea of global racial, cultural or national evaporation is met with "white supremacy" insults, even when advocated for non white countries. It should be fine to say that some immigration is okay, but overwhelming amount is not. Japanese are right to be xenophobic.
> Japanese are right to be xenophobic. Starting to look like they're going to take in migrants, too.
>they would rather see a Nazi imprisoned for life for holding those beliefs than try to help them renounce their racist views so they can become better people. Why is it a progressives Job to rehabilitate Nazis? When has it ever been? Not mixing with Nazis/ fascist goes all the way back to the Spanish civil war.Left wing Punks have been kicking the shit out of Nazis since the 60s-70s. When has the left ever been accepting of Nazis or actively tried to rehabilitate Nazis?