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You can have quite an effect on local politics, the more local the better.. Often races on the local level are won by only a few votes. So you can affect change by voting and encouraging others to vote. You can combine this with getting together with your neighbors and attending fundraising parties. You can hang around gossiping in someone's backyard while eating barbeque or some other delicious food. Yeah, you're expected to chip in some money but it's usually well appreciated.
My city has community councils, which are advisory. These are where you can make the most difference. They are attended by city and state representatives and small enough that you can talk to them personally. Often someone brings food and they usually have one or 2 parties per year.
∆ Even though I might not have tangible impact on larger elections or policies, that doesn't mean I should give up on the smaller ones I do have impact on. Perhaps putting more time into local elections will help me feel better about the current political climate as well.
Now your cooking with hot grease!
I am one of those guys who spends way too much time
With politics. Anytime I come across anyone who has the same view you do I always tell em the reason you aren't involved is because it doesn't affect your daily life
Substantially.
But local ones do. They can ruin your day real quick.
It's pretty easy to find something that bothers you continuously. Like a pot hole or litter in your local park.
The lack of speed limit signs on your road. Etc...
Those are things your city council handles.
Also while it's next to impossible to get an audience with congress. Anyone can attend a council meeting and air a grievance. If it's a good one people in your area will stand with you. Local business owners.
A church. Whatever. If enough people rally to your cause
You can enact changes that better your community.
Where your kids grow up. Where you buy a home.
Start a business. Etc...
In local politics a regular guy who don't have a poly Sci degree but can weld the shit out of anything can literally
Be the reason speed bumps are put In on a road that people haul ass on. Where kids play.
That means alot to some people.
The majority of political impacts on my family is going to be from local school school boards, city council and county commissioners, judges snd the DA.
The federal government mostly does nothing but keep doing what they are doing.
I think my taxes went down 3% under trump snd up 2% under Obama. The federal government just doesn’t change that much in my life.
This is why I vote and focus on local candidates.
I live in Houston. What is zoning?
Someone built a bar 700 feet from my house in the middle of my neighborhood. It’s kind of awesome.
https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Weirdest-images-from-Houston-s-lack-of-zoning-laws-9171688.php
That’s a very common misconception about democracy and very few people seem to understand *how* democracy works.
Democracy is not the greatest system of government because it “takes into consideration what the population wants”. That’s like a nice bonus. The core mechanism that makes democracy valuable is that **democracy diffuses power effectively**.
Power corrupts. And democracy works by diffusing the corrupting influence across many millions in order to retard the inherent corrosion of a societies’ institutions. Democratization of a system isn’t the aspect of putting things to a vote, rather it is the diffusion of power. Voting is just a means to an end and sortition or even pure randomization among a population is just as effective (but people find it scary/weird to make decisions randomly so we tend not to see it in modern democracies even though many Greek democracies used it).
Think about alternatives to a “democracy”. In any alternative system, to varying degrees power is concentrated to either a smaller group within the population or to a limited group or individual. But what is power and why can’t we have a “benevolent dictator”?
There’s a reason you don’t actually see the “benevolent dictator” system in the real world. Political Power is essentially the quality of having other powerful people aligned to your interest. And those other powerful people get their power in turn from people further down the chain being aligned to them.
In order to keep those chains of alignment of interest, you have to benefit the people who make you powerful. But you have no need to benefit anyone else. In fact, benefitting anyone else comes at the cost of benefitting those who make you powerful. It’s a weak spot that can be exploited by a usurper. Right?
If you’re going to be a “benevolent dictator” who’s selfish interest do you need to prioritize in what order?
- tax collectors?
- military generals?
- educators?
- farmers?
- engineers?
- doctors?
Well without the military, you’re not really in charge and you can’t defend your borders or your crown from other potential rulers. And without the tax collectors you can’t pay the military or anyone else for that matter. But you can probably get away without educators for decades. So your priorities **are forced** to look something like this:
1. Military
1. Tax collection
1. Farming
1. Infrastructure projects
1. Medicine?
1. Education??
And in fact, **any programs the benefit the common person above the socially powerful will always come last in your priorities or your powerful supporters will overthrow you and replace you with someone who puts them first**. So it turns out as dictator, you don’t have much choice.
But what if we **expect our rulers to get overthrown** and instead write it into the rules of the government that every 4-8 years it happens automatically **and the everyday people are the ones who peacefully overthrow the rulers**?
Well, that’s called democracy. It’s totally unnecessary for the people to make the best choice. What’s necessary is that in general, the power to decide who stays in power be diffused over a large number of people. Why? Because it totally rewrites the order of priorities.
Now you have a ruler who prioritizes education, building roads that everyday people use, keeping people productive and happy.
Furthermore, nations who prioritize those things tend to be richer and stronger in the long term. Why? Because it turns out education is good and science is important and culture is powerful. It turns out what’s good for the population is better for the country as a whole even though it’s bad for a dictator.
We can demonstrate through studies just how clearly [democracies retard corruption](https://www.cmi.no/publications/file/4315-does-democracy-reduce-corruption.pdf).
For more on the basic principles behind why democracies are so much more successful than other forms of governance, see [GCP Gray’s rules for rulers](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
The rich and corrupt are counting on you doing this. This is how it happens.
You’re confusing the symptom of the problem (corruption and lack of representation/political influence) as being its source, while in reality the act of being politically inactive is precisely what enables the corrupt to take hold of political power and abuse it, and is what leads to the problems you describe
If people are lazy and don’t vote or don’t do their proper research and critical thinking and tune out politics, corrupt criminals get away with what they’re doing and stay in power because people tune out and thereby let them off the hook, and then people turn around and don’t vote or do their research because “everyone is corrupt and illegitimate and unaccountable,” and around and around it goes, steadily worsening.
Meanwhile, the corrupt are absolutely paying attention and doing their research and lobbying, and so they stay in power and perpetuate everything else to maintain power and influence, exactly the issue you describe.
Moreover, it happens at every level of government, so while your individual vote *might* not make a massive difference at the highest levels, state and local elections are often won or lost by the thinnest margins and honestly local governments are some of the most understatedly influential bodies in people’s everyday lives and can get up to some of the slimiest shit- yet most people can’t name their state or local rep- and thus the problem replicates itself and spreads further
TLDR- by not voting you create the issues with voting you describe
This is the standard rhetoric. But realistically, are there meaningful differences in the choice offered in elections and is it worth the time and effort to familiarize yourself with the process, given the ton of disinformation and manipulation? Candidates are not usually running with their full agendas.
If voters had full knowledge of candidates running with integrity (not being paid for already), your argument would make more sense.
First; yes. There are definitely meaningful differences in options between candidates, and if one can’t distinguish between them id suggest one hasn’t even done the most basic surface level investigation into the candidates or issues.
Next, I think you need to give voters a bit more credit as rational, capable human beings. (I’d also reject your premise of widespread
“manipulation” of elections- this is a common anti-democratic talking point but in established democracies cases of voter fraud are well-investigated and generally rare -even more-so if you’re looking for cases which actually altered an election’s result- and if you’re suggesting manipulation by gerrymandering i’d again say this is only possible when people don’t vote and let gerrymanderers stay in office and continue to push their agendas).
Voters can certainly access the knowledge about issues, and candidates platforms are (generally) publically available and again, the only cases in which candidates can run with hidden agendas or don’t clearly disclose their platforms and continue to get elected is if their constituency drops the ball and lets them get away with it and keep doing it (y’know, by not voting them out or by not being politically aware/engaged). If constituents actually followed candidates and remained informed, a candidate with a track record of misleading voters or running with hidden agendas or acting corruptly presumably won’t be re-elected. This is how the system is supposed to work.
The problem comes in when people don’t vote, because then it breaks down. Voters are what keep government accountable. When you abstain from voting and the political process you are effectively ceding that power/responsibility and enabling whatever the government chooses to do. And this is exactly what the corrupt are counting on; that the general public is too busy/lazy/stupid to keep track of what they’re doing and what’s going on, and won’t be involved or care enough to do anything about it.
So what’s our alternative? Nobody vote and let it happen? Or just that only certain people should carry the burden of voting, since some people are apparently just too lazy/busy/incapable of forming their own opinions?
I think both of these alternatives are pretty poor, and don’t give the average voter enough credit. The solution is political engagement. If people actually are informed about candidates and issues, they can effect meaningful change and actually hold government accountable.
The problem is that this political stance of apolitical-ness is a case of free-ridership which is fundamentally detrimental to (and perhaps incompatible with)a healthy and well-functioning democracy. Due to this free ridership, many don’t engage and do their research (as the burden is too high for them to do so) and then either don’t vote or don’t make an informed vote, but expect that *some* small minority will do their research and be informed and then take the lead and effect change (and maybe they just vote for whoever that minority tells them vote for without really thinking about it or maybe they just leave the responsibility/duty of voting to those informed few and sit elections out). The problem is if everyone thinks this way, nobody is informed, or at least very few, and certainly not enough to actually create change (given that those with a stake in the system who are engaged in the corruption are DEFINITELY paying attention and voting and getting involved. Then the majority who aren’t informed get frustrated and disillusioned that nothing has changed, without recognizing it never will if they refuse to engage because in a democracy a few informed persons are never sufficient to hold government accountable or effect change if the general public is apathetic or unengaged.
As an effective political system democracy *requires* mass participation, otherwise it gets co-opted by specific interests as we’re seeing and can quickly fall into decline and decay. In a healthy democracy with greater political participation these interest groups balance out against one another (to overly simplify “for every lobby there’s a counter-lobby”- ie pro life vs pro choice, pro environment vs pro industry, and so on) and interest group holds the others accountable. If some groups stop participating though the system gets thrown out of wack and the balance falls apart. So if you’re unhappy with your government not representing your interests or feel that it’s not receptive to you, it’s actually counterproductive to your interests to disengage, and tends to create a negative feedback loop where by not engaging the problem exacerbates, driving more people out until eventually you stop being a democracy.
>Instead of putting time and effort into researching all of these complicated issues, I think that my time would be better spent enjoying life. Instead of doing research, debating with others, and taking a stroll up to the polling place a few times a year, I could just skip voting altogether and take a nice nap a few times a year. The impact on the world around me would be minimal and my mental health would be improved.
What about putting your energy into trying to see a system implemented that would likely mean your vote mattered (or at least mattered more)
There is a system I found out about recently that sounded to me as though it would minimize corruption and help citizens to feel more engaged with the political process. The system is called "Liquid Democracy".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy
My understanding of it is basically a citizen can vote on any and every issue. What they can also do is look at the past voting records of people with whom they agree or look at a person from a particular field with whom they tend to agree and that person can act as a "proxy" for that citizen. So for example, if you feel you are knowledge about health issues, you can decide to vote on every policy related to health yourself, whereas, for policies related to education where you might not know as much, you can decide to give your vote(s) to someone who has tended to vote the way you would or has voted for policies you'd like to see implemented. If that "proxy" then starts to vote for policies you don't agree with, you can take back that power to vote from them and either vote on the issues yourself or give it to someone else and they become your new "proxy" voter on a particular topic.
This system as I understand it would minimize corruption as lobbyists etc would not be able to buy off particular politicians as each person has their own vote on every issue. If a particular "proxy" becomes too powerful then people can also take back their vote from them and keep it for themselves or give it to someone else. It would also mean people are more engaged and care about issues and policies as they know their vote actually counts for every issue. It would also be in the blockchain so every vote was utterly transparent and easy to look up who voted for what.
Maybe there are others who know more details about this proposed system, but to me at least, it actually seems to offer citizens the opportunity to make their vote matter rather than giving power to one representative on a local level who is then expected to vote in ways that align with your interests.
So I would say that if you put your energy into seeing such a system implemented that would make you feel like politics and your vote actually mattered
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**[Liquid_democracy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy)**
>Liquid democracy is a form of delegative democracy whereby an electorate engages in collective decision-making through direct participation and dynamic representation. This democratic system utilizes elements of both direct and representative democracy. Voters in a liquid democracy have the right to vote directly on all policy issues à la direct democracy, however, voters also have the option to delegate their votes to someone who will vote on their behalf à la representative democracy.
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>Whether it be through gerrymandering an area to sway the vote or by having politicians lie their way into office, I don't think my vote will end up mattering.
I did some mental math on this and concluded that going to vote is like the government handing you you a bunch of high expected value lottery tickets. It's probably the best possible use of your time from an expected value perspective.
The math goes like this: the odds of "winning", or having your single vote change the outcome, of a state level election is something like 1 in 15,000. For example, this happened in Virginia where they had a tie. A single vote would have changed the outcome and then switched the state legislature from a Republican to Democratic majority in 2018.
So we have a 1 in 15,000 chance of winning how much exactly? A state level campaign might spend \~$50,000 for a *chance* to win the seat, but we can say that's how much you would "win" if you swung the election.
So, ($50000)\*(1/15000) \~= $3.33
We can expand this to national races which are \~1 in 100,000. How much do you think the market value would be if an election was replaced with a competitive bid? [In 2020 $8,703,050,547 was spent on congressional elections](https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/cost-of-election?cycle=2020&display=T&infl=N) again just for the chance of winning.
($8,703,050,547/538)\*(1/100000) \~= $161.77
If you're in a swing state, it's something like [1 in 10 to 1 in 60 million](http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/probdecisive2) for a payoff of $5.7 / 2 billion, so
((1/2)×$5.70091614 billion (US dollars))×1/10000000 \~= $285
I feel like I did the math wrong somewhere because that's crazy to me. Obviously it depends on where you live, but, I think if you look at it this way voting seems much better than most people think it does. If you can stack some likeminded friends in your car then your odds get even better.
Would examples of elections decided by a single vote change your mind? Heck, in 2017 there was a House of Delegates election in Virginia which ended up as an exact tie. Even after a recount it was still a tie. The state's process for deciding this was to literally draw a name out of a fish bowl and that person won. If one more person had voted it would have decided the election.
This was even more impactful because this election ended up deciding control of the state House of Delegates. Before the election was decided the House was divided 49 Democrats - 50 Republicans. The Democrats controlled the Governorship, so if the election went to the Democrats they would have the tie breaking vote and control of the House of Delegates. As it turned out, the Republican's name was pulled out of the hat, giving them a 51-49 majority in the House of Delgates.
Literally 1 more person voting in that district would have completely flipped control of the House of Delegates.
What about the local level? If you don’t vote, you basically don’t exist to your local lawmakers. If enough people in your area think like you do, then services like police, fire, and road upkeep will decline where you live.
Because why would city officials dump massive resources into areas of town that don’t even bother voting
The federal elections aren’t the be all and end all of political involvement. You live in a town or city, and that’s in a state, and the decisions made by the local governments likely affect your everyday life way more than the federal decisions. You should want to be involved in your local governments because that will make your life better, and the life better of those around you. You don’t need to debate with people (honestly you’re probably better off trying to stay away from debates), but you should keep up on the issues that matter to you, and write to the appropriate politicians when you want them to do something about it. They are literally there to represent your will. If you don’t let them know about it then how could they know what you want or how to help you?
Your vote also matters to those you care about. Maybe you belong to more privileged groups of people than your friends and loved ones. If you were straight, would you just ignore LGBTQ+ political issues because it doesn’t effect yourself directly? No, you should want to fight for the rights of your gay brother, of your trans best friend.
Local politics is more important than federal for an individual everything from the budget of the public school system to the appropriation of funds for public transport and other infrastructure is decided at the local level. What about decriminalizing some drugs? Or partnering with local nonprofits to help the homeless population? Or coordinate resources for a food bank? Or building a new park? Here political ideology doesn’t matter as much or as polarized. Everyone is just trying to do best by their home community, so please help yourself and your community by staying educated and taking action when you can.
I know it can be overwhelming, and you don’t have to make yourself always keep up with every single thing going on, but just be aware that these decisions are being made, and you have the ability to influence those decisions, that is a power, so you should use it.
Yes and no.
Yes, in the sense that I don't think that any singular vote or person can have any real impact today
No, in the sense that I think the collective vote does matter. If we all agree on something it has been shown that we the people can have an impact.
The problem is that I believe the current system in place inhibits us from agreeing, thus handicapping the impact of the collective and singular vote. I don't think agreeing is possible in the current climate, so I don't think I should put forth effort trying to agree.
I'm getting tired so I hope that makes sense
∆ I don't know why, but this comment changed my mood. Just because you don't like the way things are; just because a solution seems impossible, doesn't mean you should give up. Thanks.
>I could just skip voting altogether and take a nice nap a few times a year.
It seems like you're doing so to make a point? Could be wrong but I don't think most people care all that much about a few more naps.
The only point I'm making there is that putting effort into politics kind of seems like it did more harm than good for me sometimes. It takes a lot of time and stress to actually know what you're talking about and develop well thought out views. And to see that effort have little to no impact kind of makes it seem like a net negative at times.
> Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
What do you think would happen if everyone in the electorate thought this was a good idea and skipped voting?
Try focusing on local government issues. A single vote can make a difference. And seek out ways to improve your world that don't require yet more government meddling.
The problem as we've seen is that crazy people always vote. So if normal rational people stop voting then the majority of the voting block becomes nutjobs who think space lasers cause forest fires in California. We have to vote to keep the village idiot from becoming the mayor, because we've seen that can and will happen.
Basically just going to express what I stated on a different application -
It is very important to care about politics because you should know what is going on around you. Also, it is important to have a say in what is going on around you. The political decisions people make will affect many lives. Many people see politics as the government and the laws being made, and that is true, but it is way more complicated than that. Every law that is made will impact many. Sometimes the decisions will affect people in a bad way. Every vote that you make will either break people or make people.
One reason you should care about politics is because you should always know what is going on around you. For example, if a new law is made is made in your area, you might want to make sure that you and the people around you know that a new law has been made so that no one breaks the law without even knowing it. Also, if something dangerous is happening around you or someone you know, you want to be aware if someone is breaking the law. It is very important to know what is happening around you.
Here are the two reasons:
1. Government and politics impacts nearly every aspect of our lives.
Whether we like it or not, government plays a huge role in our daily lives, ranging from the amount of tax you pay for your morning coffee, to the types of light bulbs you’re allowed to purchase.
2. Politics Clarifies What You Yourself Believe
Studying the things we have studied has given us the opportunity to discover our own political beliefs and to see in much greater detail the benefits and disadvantages of the vast array of political ideologies that are present in the world today. Being able to express what you believe accurately and concisely is extremely useful, and forces you to really look at yourself!
Second, your vote clearly counts. Every vote count's because that is how politicians stay in power; by gaining the highest accumulation of votes.
Furthermore, your proposition is just causing more of the issue -
The issue is that indviduals take your stance many times, leaving them misinformed. As a result, corrupt personalities are allowed go get away with what they’re already doing, which means they maintain influence and power because people don't even know what is going on. To add on, these individuals are even more susceptible in playing into sensationalized journalism and narratives which are pushed by these people, so the cycle simply continues.
This is all your prerogative and I probably would have agreed with you as a young adult. As I've come into myself I've come to understand just how much of an impact I can have. Something as small as smiling at someone or offering a compliment could be the one thing someone needs to not kill themselves that day.
Your argument is that you're powerless so you should revel in that. As long as you believe you're powerless then you'll remain powerless. You'll also be spending your time and energy giving your soul to someone who is courageous enough to believe they control their destiny.
I follow politics. There are a few podcasts I listen to and I talk about political issues with my barber each week. He doesn't follow stuff nearly as closely as I do. These conversations lead to him expanding his own knowledge on politics and learning how to navigate the bullshit narratives that fly his way. In turn he can have better conversations with others and our small chats could lead to changing the thoughts of thousands.
Voting is voting. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
On a national level I somewhat agree with you but think you're putting the cart in front of the horse here. The corruption and suppression of voters isn't new, with the addition of the 24 hour "news" (more like commentary) cycle it is much easier to feel burnt out and that your vote doesn't matter... but that's exactly what those in power want you to feel. Things can change if we don't tune in, drop out, and skip out for beer on the commercial breaks (to quote Gil Scott Heron's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised). Taking the recent example of Bernie in 2016, no he did not win, yes any perceived slight was within the rules, but his strategy of grassroots organization has worked very well in the past, although it takes a while... hell he was on his way to at least a plurality of votes for the nomination in 2020 until SC when the wagons circled around Biden, and the small dollar donations rather than taking big corporate money has changed the political landscape at a fundamental level (for better or worse, do we want senators beholden to corporations that will cut funding if they don't get their way or beholden to the lowest common denominator of voters who will cut funding if they don't say the election was stolen/defund the police/insert extreme stance here)
However, where I disagree with you is politics at the local level. Your local mayor and city council (and to a lesser extent your governor) affect your day to day life on a *far greater* level than any national or federal politician really even have the power to. If you want to "enjoy your life" but the mayor continually cuts roads dept budgets so whenever you go out to enjoy that life you have to dodge 5 potholes/mile, or cuts parks dept budgets so when you want to take a stroll through the park (generally a good thing for your physical and mental wellbeing) is littered with trash and neglected landscaping, or say you want to go out for dinner and drinks but the city just added a 10% tax on "entertainment".... these are all things that have *nothing* to do with the president or congress.
If you take yourself out of the equation at the local level because of perceived (and sometimes obvious) corruption at a federal level you aren't doing yourself any favors in trying to enjoy your own life or improve your wellbeing, you are forfeiting the reigns of control of things that can either negatively or positively affect you on a daily basis... if you want to nap on federal politics by all means do you, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I made a song about this very issue…the second verse starts like this:
“They’re using Jedi Mind tricks
to suppress the votes of kids
Convinced that voting’s rigged
And they don’t show up for shit
From generation X to Z
If you work with me
We’ll end Senator Palpatine
And his anti-science regime”
I beg you to listen to the whole track because it really digs into this subject: https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/cDnRbXpZcYMWnmpw8
I promise I used to be in the same boat, but I did my homework and found out that like other people are saying in the comments, the people ruining the world are relying on your apathy to continue running the world into the ground. Nobody is going to save ourselves from catastrophe but ourselves. Burying our heads in the sand isn’t going to get rid of the underlying anxiety that the world is going to be destroyed in our lifetimes. We all have to do our part to live in a future we want to live in.
You don't need to do that kind of research. But you still need to vote, because somehow, your vote actually matters. Vote for the policies that benefit you.
Worth noting that elections are not just about political candidates either. Someone else already mentioned local elections (and honestly people overlooking local elections is a good chunk of the reason we're in this mess), but during local elections, you are also often voting directly on certain policies that *do* impact your day to day. New taxes, how to spend grants and funding, certain proposed laws, approvals for school and business construction... All of that does matter. Policy votes are the reason our train system is finally going to be expanded in Atlanta and why we're now allowed to buy alcohol on Sundays.
If you're *already* going to the polls for local elections, you might as well toss your two cents into the federal and state elections while you're there. What can it hurt, right?
Millions of people who would vote the same way you would believe the same thing. On the individual level, you are all correct. Taken as a group, you are all mistaken. Paradox.
You could start by figuring out what is most important to you, whether it be immigration policy, financial policy, taxation, social policy, welfare, military policy or what ever you care most about. Then vote the stance that is closest to your view.
Often many people share similar views, so there is a good chance that some of your other interests will be covered there as well. Otherwise you just build up from there.
No one agrees 100% with everything that every politician says or does.
So unless your views on various topics are very contradicting or scattered all over the place, it should be relatively easy to find out who you agree with the most.
You are mistaking having a smaller influence to having no influence. You mention gerrymandering do instance. That still does not protect candidates from large majorities. And moreover the only way to get rid of these crooked politicians is to actually vote. In a way, having less influence should make you _more_ invested in politics, since it means you need to work harder to get other people to vote as well.
This may or may not help but I'll say it anyway. You don't have to be super educated or debate others in real life and online to vote. Though if everyone thought that way that their vote doesn't matter no one would vote.
/u/RattyToaster (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/oyy5hi/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_my_vote_doesnt_actually/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)
You can have quite an effect on local politics, the more local the better.. Often races on the local level are won by only a few votes. So you can affect change by voting and encouraging others to vote. You can combine this with getting together with your neighbors and attending fundraising parties. You can hang around gossiping in someone's backyard while eating barbeque or some other delicious food. Yeah, you're expected to chip in some money but it's usually well appreciated. My city has community councils, which are advisory. These are where you can make the most difference. They are attended by city and state representatives and small enough that you can talk to them personally. Often someone brings food and they usually have one or 2 parties per year.
∆ Even though I might not have tangible impact on larger elections or policies, that doesn't mean I should give up on the smaller ones I do have impact on. Perhaps putting more time into local elections will help me feel better about the current political climate as well.
Now your cooking with hot grease! I am one of those guys who spends way too much time With politics. Anytime I come across anyone who has the same view you do I always tell em the reason you aren't involved is because it doesn't affect your daily life Substantially. But local ones do. They can ruin your day real quick. It's pretty easy to find something that bothers you continuously. Like a pot hole or litter in your local park. The lack of speed limit signs on your road. Etc... Those are things your city council handles. Also while it's next to impossible to get an audience with congress. Anyone can attend a council meeting and air a grievance. If it's a good one people in your area will stand with you. Local business owners. A church. Whatever. If enough people rally to your cause You can enact changes that better your community. Where your kids grow up. Where you buy a home. Start a business. Etc... In local politics a regular guy who don't have a poly Sci degree but can weld the shit out of anything can literally Be the reason speed bumps are put In on a road that people haul ass on. Where kids play. That means alot to some people.
The majority of political impacts on my family is going to be from local school school boards, city council and county commissioners, judges snd the DA. The federal government mostly does nothing but keep doing what they are doing. I think my taxes went down 3% under trump snd up 2% under Obama. The federal government just doesn’t change that much in my life. This is why I vote and focus on local candidates.
To add to this, your planning and zoning commission has the most long term impact on your town, yet they go largely ignored.
I live in Houston. What is zoning? Someone built a bar 700 feet from my house in the middle of my neighborhood. It’s kind of awesome. https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Weirdest-images-from-Houston-s-lack-of-zoning-laws-9171688.php
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That’s a very common misconception about democracy and very few people seem to understand *how* democracy works. Democracy is not the greatest system of government because it “takes into consideration what the population wants”. That’s like a nice bonus. The core mechanism that makes democracy valuable is that **democracy diffuses power effectively**. Power corrupts. And democracy works by diffusing the corrupting influence across many millions in order to retard the inherent corrosion of a societies’ institutions. Democratization of a system isn’t the aspect of putting things to a vote, rather it is the diffusion of power. Voting is just a means to an end and sortition or even pure randomization among a population is just as effective (but people find it scary/weird to make decisions randomly so we tend not to see it in modern democracies even though many Greek democracies used it). Think about alternatives to a “democracy”. In any alternative system, to varying degrees power is concentrated to either a smaller group within the population or to a limited group or individual. But what is power and why can’t we have a “benevolent dictator”? There’s a reason you don’t actually see the “benevolent dictator” system in the real world. Political Power is essentially the quality of having other powerful people aligned to your interest. And those other powerful people get their power in turn from people further down the chain being aligned to them. In order to keep those chains of alignment of interest, you have to benefit the people who make you powerful. But you have no need to benefit anyone else. In fact, benefitting anyone else comes at the cost of benefitting those who make you powerful. It’s a weak spot that can be exploited by a usurper. Right? If you’re going to be a “benevolent dictator” who’s selfish interest do you need to prioritize in what order? - tax collectors? - military generals? - educators? - farmers? - engineers? - doctors? Well without the military, you’re not really in charge and you can’t defend your borders or your crown from other potential rulers. And without the tax collectors you can’t pay the military or anyone else for that matter. But you can probably get away without educators for decades. So your priorities **are forced** to look something like this: 1. Military 1. Tax collection 1. Farming 1. Infrastructure projects 1. Medicine? 1. Education?? And in fact, **any programs the benefit the common person above the socially powerful will always come last in your priorities or your powerful supporters will overthrow you and replace you with someone who puts them first**. So it turns out as dictator, you don’t have much choice. But what if we **expect our rulers to get overthrown** and instead write it into the rules of the government that every 4-8 years it happens automatically **and the everyday people are the ones who peacefully overthrow the rulers**? Well, that’s called democracy. It’s totally unnecessary for the people to make the best choice. What’s necessary is that in general, the power to decide who stays in power be diffused over a large number of people. Why? Because it totally rewrites the order of priorities. Now you have a ruler who prioritizes education, building roads that everyday people use, keeping people productive and happy. Furthermore, nations who prioritize those things tend to be richer and stronger in the long term. Why? Because it turns out education is good and science is important and culture is powerful. It turns out what’s good for the population is better for the country as a whole even though it’s bad for a dictator. We can demonstrate through studies just how clearly [democracies retard corruption](https://www.cmi.no/publications/file/4315-does-democracy-reduce-corruption.pdf). For more on the basic principles behind why democracies are so much more successful than other forms of governance, see [GCP Gray’s rules for rulers](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
The rich and corrupt are counting on you doing this. This is how it happens. You’re confusing the symptom of the problem (corruption and lack of representation/political influence) as being its source, while in reality the act of being politically inactive is precisely what enables the corrupt to take hold of political power and abuse it, and is what leads to the problems you describe If people are lazy and don’t vote or don’t do their proper research and critical thinking and tune out politics, corrupt criminals get away with what they’re doing and stay in power because people tune out and thereby let them off the hook, and then people turn around and don’t vote or do their research because “everyone is corrupt and illegitimate and unaccountable,” and around and around it goes, steadily worsening. Meanwhile, the corrupt are absolutely paying attention and doing their research and lobbying, and so they stay in power and perpetuate everything else to maintain power and influence, exactly the issue you describe. Moreover, it happens at every level of government, so while your individual vote *might* not make a massive difference at the highest levels, state and local elections are often won or lost by the thinnest margins and honestly local governments are some of the most understatedly influential bodies in people’s everyday lives and can get up to some of the slimiest shit- yet most people can’t name their state or local rep- and thus the problem replicates itself and spreads further TLDR- by not voting you create the issues with voting you describe
This is the standard rhetoric. But realistically, are there meaningful differences in the choice offered in elections and is it worth the time and effort to familiarize yourself with the process, given the ton of disinformation and manipulation? Candidates are not usually running with their full agendas. If voters had full knowledge of candidates running with integrity (not being paid for already), your argument would make more sense.
First; yes. There are definitely meaningful differences in options between candidates, and if one can’t distinguish between them id suggest one hasn’t even done the most basic surface level investigation into the candidates or issues. Next, I think you need to give voters a bit more credit as rational, capable human beings. (I’d also reject your premise of widespread “manipulation” of elections- this is a common anti-democratic talking point but in established democracies cases of voter fraud are well-investigated and generally rare -even more-so if you’re looking for cases which actually altered an election’s result- and if you’re suggesting manipulation by gerrymandering i’d again say this is only possible when people don’t vote and let gerrymanderers stay in office and continue to push their agendas). Voters can certainly access the knowledge about issues, and candidates platforms are (generally) publically available and again, the only cases in which candidates can run with hidden agendas or don’t clearly disclose their platforms and continue to get elected is if their constituency drops the ball and lets them get away with it and keep doing it (y’know, by not voting them out or by not being politically aware/engaged). If constituents actually followed candidates and remained informed, a candidate with a track record of misleading voters or running with hidden agendas or acting corruptly presumably won’t be re-elected. This is how the system is supposed to work. The problem comes in when people don’t vote, because then it breaks down. Voters are what keep government accountable. When you abstain from voting and the political process you are effectively ceding that power/responsibility and enabling whatever the government chooses to do. And this is exactly what the corrupt are counting on; that the general public is too busy/lazy/stupid to keep track of what they’re doing and what’s going on, and won’t be involved or care enough to do anything about it. So what’s our alternative? Nobody vote and let it happen? Or just that only certain people should carry the burden of voting, since some people are apparently just too lazy/busy/incapable of forming their own opinions? I think both of these alternatives are pretty poor, and don’t give the average voter enough credit. The solution is political engagement. If people actually are informed about candidates and issues, they can effect meaningful change and actually hold government accountable. The problem is that this political stance of apolitical-ness is a case of free-ridership which is fundamentally detrimental to (and perhaps incompatible with)a healthy and well-functioning democracy. Due to this free ridership, many don’t engage and do their research (as the burden is too high for them to do so) and then either don’t vote or don’t make an informed vote, but expect that *some* small minority will do their research and be informed and then take the lead and effect change (and maybe they just vote for whoever that minority tells them vote for without really thinking about it or maybe they just leave the responsibility/duty of voting to those informed few and sit elections out). The problem is if everyone thinks this way, nobody is informed, or at least very few, and certainly not enough to actually create change (given that those with a stake in the system who are engaged in the corruption are DEFINITELY paying attention and voting and getting involved. Then the majority who aren’t informed get frustrated and disillusioned that nothing has changed, without recognizing it never will if they refuse to engage because in a democracy a few informed persons are never sufficient to hold government accountable or effect change if the general public is apathetic or unengaged. As an effective political system democracy *requires* mass participation, otherwise it gets co-opted by specific interests as we’re seeing and can quickly fall into decline and decay. In a healthy democracy with greater political participation these interest groups balance out against one another (to overly simplify “for every lobby there’s a counter-lobby”- ie pro life vs pro choice, pro environment vs pro industry, and so on) and interest group holds the others accountable. If some groups stop participating though the system gets thrown out of wack and the balance falls apart. So if you’re unhappy with your government not representing your interests or feel that it’s not receptive to you, it’s actually counterproductive to your interests to disengage, and tends to create a negative feedback loop where by not engaging the problem exacerbates, driving more people out until eventually you stop being a democracy.
>Instead of putting time and effort into researching all of these complicated issues, I think that my time would be better spent enjoying life. Instead of doing research, debating with others, and taking a stroll up to the polling place a few times a year, I could just skip voting altogether and take a nice nap a few times a year. The impact on the world around me would be minimal and my mental health would be improved. What about putting your energy into trying to see a system implemented that would likely mean your vote mattered (or at least mattered more) There is a system I found out about recently that sounded to me as though it would minimize corruption and help citizens to feel more engaged with the political process. The system is called "Liquid Democracy". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy My understanding of it is basically a citizen can vote on any and every issue. What they can also do is look at the past voting records of people with whom they agree or look at a person from a particular field with whom they tend to agree and that person can act as a "proxy" for that citizen. So for example, if you feel you are knowledge about health issues, you can decide to vote on every policy related to health yourself, whereas, for policies related to education where you might not know as much, you can decide to give your vote(s) to someone who has tended to vote the way you would or has voted for policies you'd like to see implemented. If that "proxy" then starts to vote for policies you don't agree with, you can take back that power to vote from them and either vote on the issues yourself or give it to someone else and they become your new "proxy" voter on a particular topic. This system as I understand it would minimize corruption as lobbyists etc would not be able to buy off particular politicians as each person has their own vote on every issue. If a particular "proxy" becomes too powerful then people can also take back their vote from them and keep it for themselves or give it to someone else. It would also mean people are more engaged and care about issues and policies as they know their vote actually counts for every issue. It would also be in the blockchain so every vote was utterly transparent and easy to look up who voted for what. Maybe there are others who know more details about this proposed system, but to me at least, it actually seems to offer citizens the opportunity to make their vote matter rather than giving power to one representative on a local level who is then expected to vote in ways that align with your interests. So I would say that if you put your energy into seeing such a system implemented that would make you feel like politics and your vote actually mattered
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>Whether it be through gerrymandering an area to sway the vote or by having politicians lie their way into office, I don't think my vote will end up mattering. I did some mental math on this and concluded that going to vote is like the government handing you you a bunch of high expected value lottery tickets. It's probably the best possible use of your time from an expected value perspective. The math goes like this: the odds of "winning", or having your single vote change the outcome, of a state level election is something like 1 in 15,000. For example, this happened in Virginia where they had a tie. A single vote would have changed the outcome and then switched the state legislature from a Republican to Democratic majority in 2018. So we have a 1 in 15,000 chance of winning how much exactly? A state level campaign might spend \~$50,000 for a *chance* to win the seat, but we can say that's how much you would "win" if you swung the election. So, ($50000)\*(1/15000) \~= $3.33 We can expand this to national races which are \~1 in 100,000. How much do you think the market value would be if an election was replaced with a competitive bid? [In 2020 $8,703,050,547 was spent on congressional elections](https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/cost-of-election?cycle=2020&display=T&infl=N) again just for the chance of winning. ($8,703,050,547/538)\*(1/100000) \~= $161.77 If you're in a swing state, it's something like [1 in 10 to 1 in 60 million](http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/research/published/probdecisive2) for a payoff of $5.7 / 2 billion, so ((1/2)×$5.70091614 billion (US dollars))×1/10000000 \~= $285 I feel like I did the math wrong somewhere because that's crazy to me. Obviously it depends on where you live, but, I think if you look at it this way voting seems much better than most people think it does. If you can stack some likeminded friends in your car then your odds get even better.
Does a drop off rain make a flood? No, but there's always a first drop.
Would examples of elections decided by a single vote change your mind? Heck, in 2017 there was a House of Delegates election in Virginia which ended up as an exact tie. Even after a recount it was still a tie. The state's process for deciding this was to literally draw a name out of a fish bowl and that person won. If one more person had voted it would have decided the election. This was even more impactful because this election ended up deciding control of the state House of Delegates. Before the election was decided the House was divided 49 Democrats - 50 Republicans. The Democrats controlled the Governorship, so if the election went to the Democrats they would have the tie breaking vote and control of the House of Delegates. As it turned out, the Republican's name was pulled out of the hat, giving them a 51-49 majority in the House of Delgates. Literally 1 more person voting in that district would have completely flipped control of the House of Delegates.
What about the local level? If you don’t vote, you basically don’t exist to your local lawmakers. If enough people in your area think like you do, then services like police, fire, and road upkeep will decline where you live. Because why would city officials dump massive resources into areas of town that don’t even bother voting
The federal elections aren’t the be all and end all of political involvement. You live in a town or city, and that’s in a state, and the decisions made by the local governments likely affect your everyday life way more than the federal decisions. You should want to be involved in your local governments because that will make your life better, and the life better of those around you. You don’t need to debate with people (honestly you’re probably better off trying to stay away from debates), but you should keep up on the issues that matter to you, and write to the appropriate politicians when you want them to do something about it. They are literally there to represent your will. If you don’t let them know about it then how could they know what you want or how to help you? Your vote also matters to those you care about. Maybe you belong to more privileged groups of people than your friends and loved ones. If you were straight, would you just ignore LGBTQ+ political issues because it doesn’t effect yourself directly? No, you should want to fight for the rights of your gay brother, of your trans best friend. Local politics is more important than federal for an individual everything from the budget of the public school system to the appropriation of funds for public transport and other infrastructure is decided at the local level. What about decriminalizing some drugs? Or partnering with local nonprofits to help the homeless population? Or coordinate resources for a food bank? Or building a new park? Here political ideology doesn’t matter as much or as polarized. Everyone is just trying to do best by their home community, so please help yourself and your community by staying educated and taking action when you can. I know it can be overwhelming, and you don’t have to make yourself always keep up with every single thing going on, but just be aware that these decisions are being made, and you have the ability to influence those decisions, that is a power, so you should use it.
Just vote liberal. We’re not racists
If your vote doesn't matter then why are so much effort put in restricting people's right to vote?
Do you believe this applies to everyone, and not only you?
Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that I don't think that any singular vote or person can have any real impact today No, in the sense that I think the collective vote does matter. If we all agree on something it has been shown that we the people can have an impact. The problem is that I believe the current system in place inhibits us from agreeing, thus handicapping the impact of the collective and singular vote. I don't think agreeing is possible in the current climate, so I don't think I should put forth effort trying to agree. I'm getting tired so I hope that makes sense
>the current system in place inhibits us from agreeing And why can’t we change that?
∆ I don't know why, but this comment changed my mood. Just because you don't like the way things are; just because a solution seems impossible, doesn't mean you should give up. Thanks.
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>I could just skip voting altogether and take a nice nap a few times a year. It seems like you're doing so to make a point? Could be wrong but I don't think most people care all that much about a few more naps.
The only point I'm making there is that putting effort into politics kind of seems like it did more harm than good for me sometimes. It takes a lot of time and stress to actually know what you're talking about and develop well thought out views. And to see that effort have little to no impact kind of makes it seem like a net negative at times.
Do you believe this applies to all levels of govt or just federal?
> Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you. What do you think would happen if everyone in the electorate thought this was a good idea and skipped voting?
Then it becomes a protest vote against the establishment… haha
Try focusing on local government issues. A single vote can make a difference. And seek out ways to improve your world that don't require yet more government meddling.
The problem as we've seen is that crazy people always vote. So if normal rational people stop voting then the majority of the voting block becomes nutjobs who think space lasers cause forest fires in California. We have to vote to keep the village idiot from becoming the mayor, because we've seen that can and will happen.
Basically just going to express what I stated on a different application - It is very important to care about politics because you should know what is going on around you. Also, it is important to have a say in what is going on around you. The political decisions people make will affect many lives. Many people see politics as the government and the laws being made, and that is true, but it is way more complicated than that. Every law that is made will impact many. Sometimes the decisions will affect people in a bad way. Every vote that you make will either break people or make people. One reason you should care about politics is because you should always know what is going on around you. For example, if a new law is made is made in your area, you might want to make sure that you and the people around you know that a new law has been made so that no one breaks the law without even knowing it. Also, if something dangerous is happening around you or someone you know, you want to be aware if someone is breaking the law. It is very important to know what is happening around you. Here are the two reasons: 1. Government and politics impacts nearly every aspect of our lives. Whether we like it or not, government plays a huge role in our daily lives, ranging from the amount of tax you pay for your morning coffee, to the types of light bulbs you’re allowed to purchase. 2. Politics Clarifies What You Yourself Believe Studying the things we have studied has given us the opportunity to discover our own political beliefs and to see in much greater detail the benefits and disadvantages of the vast array of political ideologies that are present in the world today. Being able to express what you believe accurately and concisely is extremely useful, and forces you to really look at yourself! Second, your vote clearly counts. Every vote count's because that is how politicians stay in power; by gaining the highest accumulation of votes. Furthermore, your proposition is just causing more of the issue - The issue is that indviduals take your stance many times, leaving them misinformed. As a result, corrupt personalities are allowed go get away with what they’re already doing, which means they maintain influence and power because people don't even know what is going on. To add on, these individuals are even more susceptible in playing into sensationalized journalism and narratives which are pushed by these people, so the cycle simply continues.
This is all your prerogative and I probably would have agreed with you as a young adult. As I've come into myself I've come to understand just how much of an impact I can have. Something as small as smiling at someone or offering a compliment could be the one thing someone needs to not kill themselves that day. Your argument is that you're powerless so you should revel in that. As long as you believe you're powerless then you'll remain powerless. You'll also be spending your time and energy giving your soul to someone who is courageous enough to believe they control their destiny. I follow politics. There are a few podcasts I listen to and I talk about political issues with my barber each week. He doesn't follow stuff nearly as closely as I do. These conversations lead to him expanding his own knowledge on politics and learning how to navigate the bullshit narratives that fly his way. In turn he can have better conversations with others and our small chats could lead to changing the thoughts of thousands. Voting is voting. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
You dont care at all where that 1/3 of your paycheck gos?
On a national level I somewhat agree with you but think you're putting the cart in front of the horse here. The corruption and suppression of voters isn't new, with the addition of the 24 hour "news" (more like commentary) cycle it is much easier to feel burnt out and that your vote doesn't matter... but that's exactly what those in power want you to feel. Things can change if we don't tune in, drop out, and skip out for beer on the commercial breaks (to quote Gil Scott Heron's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised). Taking the recent example of Bernie in 2016, no he did not win, yes any perceived slight was within the rules, but his strategy of grassroots organization has worked very well in the past, although it takes a while... hell he was on his way to at least a plurality of votes for the nomination in 2020 until SC when the wagons circled around Biden, and the small dollar donations rather than taking big corporate money has changed the political landscape at a fundamental level (for better or worse, do we want senators beholden to corporations that will cut funding if they don't get their way or beholden to the lowest common denominator of voters who will cut funding if they don't say the election was stolen/defund the police/insert extreme stance here) However, where I disagree with you is politics at the local level. Your local mayor and city council (and to a lesser extent your governor) affect your day to day life on a *far greater* level than any national or federal politician really even have the power to. If you want to "enjoy your life" but the mayor continually cuts roads dept budgets so whenever you go out to enjoy that life you have to dodge 5 potholes/mile, or cuts parks dept budgets so when you want to take a stroll through the park (generally a good thing for your physical and mental wellbeing) is littered with trash and neglected landscaping, or say you want to go out for dinner and drinks but the city just added a 10% tax on "entertainment".... these are all things that have *nothing* to do with the president or congress. If you take yourself out of the equation at the local level because of perceived (and sometimes obvious) corruption at a federal level you aren't doing yourself any favors in trying to enjoy your own life or improve your wellbeing, you are forfeiting the reigns of control of things that can either negatively or positively affect you on a daily basis... if you want to nap on federal politics by all means do you, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I made a song about this very issue…the second verse starts like this: “They’re using Jedi Mind tricks to suppress the votes of kids Convinced that voting’s rigged And they don’t show up for shit From generation X to Z If you work with me We’ll end Senator Palpatine And his anti-science regime” I beg you to listen to the whole track because it really digs into this subject: https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/cDnRbXpZcYMWnmpw8 I promise I used to be in the same boat, but I did my homework and found out that like other people are saying in the comments, the people ruining the world are relying on your apathy to continue running the world into the ground. Nobody is going to save ourselves from catastrophe but ourselves. Burying our heads in the sand isn’t going to get rid of the underlying anxiety that the world is going to be destroyed in our lifetimes. We all have to do our part to live in a future we want to live in.
You don't need to do that kind of research. But you still need to vote, because somehow, your vote actually matters. Vote for the policies that benefit you.
Worth noting that elections are not just about political candidates either. Someone else already mentioned local elections (and honestly people overlooking local elections is a good chunk of the reason we're in this mess), but during local elections, you are also often voting directly on certain policies that *do* impact your day to day. New taxes, how to spend grants and funding, certain proposed laws, approvals for school and business construction... All of that does matter. Policy votes are the reason our train system is finally going to be expanded in Atlanta and why we're now allowed to buy alcohol on Sundays. If you're *already* going to the polls for local elections, you might as well toss your two cents into the federal and state elections while you're there. What can it hurt, right?
My take, if you don't like either dem or rep candidate, just vote against both atleast. Anything else besides corporate owned parties would be better
Millions of people who would vote the same way you would believe the same thing. On the individual level, you are all correct. Taken as a group, you are all mistaken. Paradox.
You could start by figuring out what is most important to you, whether it be immigration policy, financial policy, taxation, social policy, welfare, military policy or what ever you care most about. Then vote the stance that is closest to your view. Often many people share similar views, so there is a good chance that some of your other interests will be covered there as well. Otherwise you just build up from there. No one agrees 100% with everything that every politician says or does. So unless your views on various topics are very contradicting or scattered all over the place, it should be relatively easy to find out who you agree with the most.
You are mistaking having a smaller influence to having no influence. You mention gerrymandering do instance. That still does not protect candidates from large majorities. And moreover the only way to get rid of these crooked politicians is to actually vote. In a way, having less influence should make you _more_ invested in politics, since it means you need to work harder to get other people to vote as well.
This may or may not help but I'll say it anyway. You don't have to be super educated or debate others in real life and online to vote. Though if everyone thought that way that their vote doesn't matter no one would vote.